England win but what does the future hold for Lee Carsley? – Football Weekly podcast

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly, a conventional England win in Finland.

Two central midfielders, one true nine, and one of those regulation wins that was kind of okay.

what did we learn it's better having angel gomez there than just an empty space trent alexander arnold takes a good free kick and it's interesting that lee karsley dropped jordan pickford england were open the fins perhaps just a litman and away from taking their chances and so we're left with questions over lee carsley whether he wants the job at all and who england might go for instead and the big question do we need clarity will clarity change our lives forever meanwhile the republic of ireland go down in Greece who have four wins from four the scots put up stiff resistance against a youthful just kidding croatia side and Wales go two up in Iceland before getting pegged back.

There's a bit of EFL to round up your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barney Ronnie, hello.

Hi, Max.

I am

not undelighted not to not

be here.

Right.

Thanks for clarifying.

That's the clarity that we needed all along.

Barry Glen Denning, hello.

Hello.

Oh, yes.

Sorry, Barney, you haven't finished.

I had both finished and also not finished.

I'm trying to be like the England manager, all right?

That's how that's this is how men in important roles

in public life speak.

So I'm speaking like that from now on.

Yeah, you needed a couple of hopefullies in there to then I'd have understood what on earth was going on.

Well, this podcast needs a world-class podcaster.

And I am not a world-class podcaster, but I am the right man for this podcast.

Good.

I feel like we've had clarity.

George Elek, welcome from Not the Top 20 Podcast as well, another

quality podcast of that we are sure.

How are you?

Yeah, thanks.

I don't know how to follow that, so I'm just going to say thank you for having me.

That's okay.

Hey, Mr.

England back.

I mean, it's been a funny international break, hasn't it, Barney?

I mean, after that defeat in Greece, I'm not entirely sure how straightforward this win was, but the Carsley conversation, I guess, is certainly bigger than yesterday's game.

Do we need clarity?

Do we need the clarity that you have just delivered us for this pod?

I mean, I just crave clarity.

What's happened is

he's a good man who's been asked to do something, and

I find him really kind of quite adorably trying to manage this situation.

And he's been put in a very, very stupid position by the Football Association, who are reminding us all that essentially they were led by Gareth Southgate who for all his you know he's not a perfect manager I'm sort of known as a Gareth Southgate kind of groupie but I'm not but he was very good at managing and leading effectively leading that organization to the extent that everything the executives said began to sound like him and he he became totally the tone of it and now we're remembering what the football association is actually like historically this is this is football heritage this is dna the dna of the organization is coming out.

And it's ham-fisted and disorganized and kind of really poor.

And Lee Carsley has become the public face of that.

And I feel sorry for him for that.

I was at the Grease game.

It was hilarious.

Honestly, it was one of the funniest games.

I loved it.

I love every second of it.

It was brilliant.

I love watching that team.

I love trying to understand what it was about.

The players looking confused and Carl Palmer in simple midfield.

And it was just great.

It was like

every radio phone, we'd done a kind of algorithm of radio phoning and come up with a team.

And maybe that's how it should be because it was great fun.

Greece played really well, and you could see them realizing after 10 minutes, this isn't real.

Like, what are we playing against here?

And they deserve to win, completely deserve to win.

And that was very interesting.

And yeah, he tried something.

I wouldn't condemn him for it.

But what we have is a complete and utter shit show now, which is really interesting.

I kind of like it.

It feels like safe.

It feels like safety.

I know this and I understand it.

And and i'm kind of enjoying enjoying it george do you do you share those sentiments do you think it's a shit show or is this just we they might have clarity within the fa and they're just not telling us the clarity and therefore we are annoyed about it we don't know as people looking inside what's going on with the process and that's one of the most confusing things you have reports in germany that thomas tuchel has spoken to the fa whether those are credible or not we don't know i mean the the the grease game felt like almost a product of like footballing democracy where you have two years of people demanding that the handbrake is taken off, demanding that Foden and Palmer and Bellingham are all on the pitch at the same time.

And then it happens.

And everyone says, well, not like that.

That wasn't what we wanted.

We didn't want it that way.

This is not what we voted for in any sense at all.

Sack the PM, sack the manager.

And it's incredible how this is always the case.

And people love to make sweeping conclusions off the base, off the fact of a kind of short 90 minutes of football.

When in reality, it was the same under Gareth Southgate, it's the same under Lee Carsley, where the perception of what England should be, because we've got all of these world-class players, this notion that we should just wipe the floor with all of these sides, that isn't what international football is.

Are you saying that that was not a bad selection?

It was a good selection, and Greece are good.

It's only perception that there was...

It was about - it was an uneven selection, and we don't need structure.

No, no, I think it was a misguided team selection for sure.

I don't think there's any guarantee that had we started the game playing 4-4-2 as we ended it, that the result would have been any better.

All I'm saying is that this is what people asked for.

This is what people wanted.

Under Gareth Southgate, the biggest criticism was, why do we play two holding midfielders against teams who are terrible?

Well, this is what happens when you play one.

This is what happens when you play five number tens.

Like, it's my point is more that, yes, it was misguided from Carsley.

But I think the idea or the perception from England fans has been, international football is easy.

We've got world-class players.

We should put them all on the pitch and we're going to win.

And that's just not the case.

That's not how football works.

Unless you're Spain 15 years ago, you managed to make it work play without a strike.

I mean, if you actually look at the kind of technical profiles of our team on,

when was it, Thursday night, compared to that Spain team, it wasn't that different.

You have lots of technicians who all play in a similar position, but that team has built over a period of time that was completely different to Lee Carsley being handed a squad of players with not very much time to work with them.

That's the other thing about this is the judgment of Carsley as a manager off the back of these four games.

A, it flip-flops based on results and results only, but also it completely fails to grasp the idea that he has had such a limited time to work with these players.

And why should he not be afforded the time to, you know, as we saw yesterday, he claims probably for Jordan Pickford's sake that him selecting Henderson in goal was not a dropping, but an opportunity to watch another player.

And normally

managers are afforded time to work with players, make their decisions.

And, you know, whether he's the long-term answer or not, he would have learned a hell of a lot from Thursday night through a defeat, probably more through a defeat than he would have done through a positive result.

So

it's the knee-jerk

writing off of Carsley, where realistically, I think he's probably not going to want the job.

And whether, you know, it's easy to forget that this is a guy who ruled himself out of the Brentford job when they're a championship side because he didn't want the added pressure.

Very difficult league, the championship, though.

So, you know, that is correct.

Barry, I mean, at least God the Greece game happened.

It gave us, it's made this international recite exciting, quite fun.

And then I suppose last night we go back to a game where actually it was sort of a bit more England are playing a team not as good as them.

They gave up some chances, but they probably deserve to win.

Yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily agree that

the team

Carsley picked to play against Greece was what those of us, and I was one of these people who always thought Southgate was too cautious.

That's not what I would have preferred Southgate to do.

I just wanted England to stop passing the ball sideways and backwards all the time and speed things up a bit.

But also, it is missed that if Harry Kane was fit to play, then he wouldn't have selected that team as well, which played a bit.

I mean, obviously, Watkins could have started or Solanke could have started, but that was kind of the driving force in selecting it.

If Kane had been fit and he started that team, then it would have been crazy, but that wasn't the case.

He was ruled out before the game

Well, I I still don't see why he shouldn't have picked um Solanke or Watkins and it was a bit of a slap in the face for them.

But then I think last night when things went back to normal, it again looked quite ponderous, but it was ultimately a pretty straightforward win over a a team that wasn't really up to much in Finland.

Um, you know, they were beaten by Ireland uh a couple of days previously and Ireland are no great shakes.

There were some good performances.

Uh, Trent Alexander Arnold was good going forward, not brilliant defending.

So, you know, it's really,

it was very much reverting back to the norm last night.

I don't know whether Carsley wants the job or not.

I would be surprised if he didn't want it.

I mean,

it's a wonderful opportunity, but I think he's...

His team selection against Greece certainly didn't do many favours, and he's now seems to be talking himself out of it in some weird way.

So maybe he doesn't want us.

I wanted to say a non-Carsley thing

because I thought the interesting most interesting player last night was Angel Gomez and the way he was used.

Because I like him and I totally understand, I think, why Lee Carsley wants to pick him because of what he's good at, which is taking the ball in those half spaces, being totally comfortable in possession and creating what Barry was talking about, that faster transition between slow possession where you're just keeping the ball getting back into your positions and trying to attack.

He's really good at that.

He's really good at being a conduit player.

But I don't think that England know how to use him or have had enough time or England's players are schooled in using a player like that properly.

Like I noticed with an hour gone, he'd had the fourth most touches.

He'd had fewer touches than

I think Trent Alexander Arnold had the most.

It was all the defence.

They keep the ball slowly at the back because it's safe.

It's a place to rest.

He should have more touches than that.

I saw a period around 55 minutes where he was just waiting for the ball in a half space for about five minutes.

And the players were not comfortable passing it in because that's not how they're brought up to play.

It's not how they're used to playing with England.

They're used to keeping that really rigid shape.

He finally got it and did that half-turn thing and fed it on really quickly.

And even the commenters said, oh, a great body swerve from Gomez.

And it wasn't that.

That's just how he takes the ball.

That's what he wants to do.

That's what he is.

That is the only point of having him in the team because he's really good feeding the ball into taking the ball anywhere and feeding it on and speeding up that slow possession, which you always have in international football.

So I just thought that they are not, he's not, he's obviously not javy, but he is really good at doing that.

And I just felt problem with that performance is they had a player to do exactly what Barry's talking about and what everyone wants, but they're just not ready to use it because

that's not how they've played for the last three years.

And also English players are not accustomed to that generally.

I guess they could learn that.

I mean, if nothing else comes out of the Carsley era, George, if six games is enough to call it that, and he does go off back to the 21s, bringing in Gomez may be a great lasting legacy, right?

Yeah, for sure.

I don't think he was on that many people's radar in terms of an immediate England call-up.

He's obviously someone that Carsley knew well from the under 21s.

And

he's a profile of player that England haven't really had.

And I think that England really missed in the Euros.

You know, a lot of us who were calling for Adam Wharton to come into the side during those early Euros games was a similar thing.

Someone who gets on the ball, as Barney says, can spin very quickly and then makes incisive forward passes.

And that is when you're a team who are going to come up against a low block in 90% of your games, you have to have people that can break the lines.

And as good as Declan Wright is as a footballer and as a midfielder, it's not one of his strongest points.

He's not someone who is one of those players you can feed the ball into feet and he'll spin quickly and get and send it out wide.

And it was notable yesterday to see how in that first goal, which was such a brilliant move between Grealish and Trent Alexander Arnold and Gomez, it was incisive passing, quick movement between three players who are all very technically gifted.

But it was notable as well that unlike the Grease game where

you had so many players who aren't used to getting on the ball in deeper areas, suddenly having Gomez there, having Grealish, who obviously loves to drop in as well into that left-hand channel and is so good at retaining the ball, having Trent Alexander Arnold, who...

I think at left back is someone who always felt to me to be a better option there from an attacking point of view than Kieran Trippier, given not only has he got a pretty good left foot, but also his raking passes when you've got that ball trajectory when you're playing across from deep on the left-hand side from a right footer is far more dangerous than on the right channel because obviously it's curling towards gold, it's much harder to defend against.

And we saw that a couple of times yesterday.

So,

you know, there are definitely positives out of yesterday's game.

Obviously, it's a game that England would have expected to win, but notable, you know, I saw yesterday that in Kazi's four games so far, Trenton Alexander Arnold has won man of the match in three of them.

So not only I think is Angel Gomez is,

you know, I'd be amazed if whoever takes over from here doesn't keep him in squads from now on, but I also think we're seeing Gareth South Korea did a lot right and I was one of those people that stuck up for him for the most part.

But his inability to get the best out of a guy who would walk into any team in world football in Trent,

you know, now we're seeing that he can be effective at fullback and not necessarily in midfield for England from a creative point of view.

Yeah, Carsley said Trent Alexander Arnold is multi-versatile.

His role will be slightly different to a conventional left back.

We haven't won anything since 1966, so we have to try something different.

There's a lot of pressure to get Trent Alexander Arnold to win the World Cup away at Finland in the Nations League.

But, you know, he gave it his best shot.

Barney, you wrote a piece about Harry Kane and, you know, preparing for the post-Kane age.

Do you think we should be preparing for that before or after 2026?

Yeah, I mean,

I've been buying in stocks of tinned food and digging a hut under my house for years now.

Of course, I mean, he's older now than all the other players who've ever scored more than 30 goals.

It's a complex kind of stat formula that came up to prove that he's older than everyone when they scored their last or 30th goal.

You know, the end always comes quicker than you think.

He's clearly physically diminished.

I would quite like him to just say, I'm going to go and concentrate on being a club footballer for a while and do that part of his existence for a while.

He's given England everything and I think he's great.

I really do.

And probably, you know, the best goal scoring centre forward.

But do we really want to see it going forward for another four years to try and win a home Euros, which probably is the goal because winning a World Cup is a, you know, that's a bit of a moonshot, isn't it?

So probably not.

His record is brilliantly.

symmetrical and good.

Ollie Watkins,

different movement.

Look, really, you know, he actually had affected the game, changed it, mixed it up.

It was kind of really refreshing.

It was like having a really nice light drink after having eight pints of really heavy ale.

You know, suddenly there's some different shapes are happening.

And it's like George said about Angel Gomez, profile of player.

Not necessarily better, or I'm not saying Angel Gomez is some genius, but the profile is really important in a team.

And we forget about teams with international football a lot and we think about who is the most famous and best player.

And

I feel it would be really good for whoever comes in if maybe that happened for him.

He could always come back, but just going along with that same slightly stodgy method, I find slightly exhausting at this stage.

I'm not quite sure what Barney means.

Are you saying that he should just not play for England anymore and not be in England squads?

Because

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I don't think that would be a terrible idea.

But if it happened, the

outrage from certain quarters of the media would be absolutely off the scale I imagine would it why I mean I was just saying my my point is why is nobody why isn't it he must have thought about it he must have thought look I've had 100 caps scored 68 goals went to two finals I'm not getting any better I've found these tournaments really grueling place he's played five tournaments he plays all the time he's played so many games his whole career is going to be about managing his body from here because he is not meant to be as good as he's become he is he he was middle's player of the year in 2012

And he was brilliant, but he is not a natural,

he's not like a Thierry Henry, where it's just so effortless.

Like, he has done so well to achieve all this.

He gets so much abuse.

Like, do you want to watch Harry Kane managing his body every few months to get in a squad for the next four years?

No.

Like, I would wave him on his way and say, you've been absolutely brilliant if that's what he decided to do.

I don't think it's going to happen, but I thought it was a possibility that wouldn't be so unsensible.

But I just think Harry Kane loves playing for England and always wants to play, even when he's not fit enough to play.

Well, isn't that the problem?

Doesn't he love it too much?

His whole football identity is England and Gareth South Carolina.

Shouldn't it be like winning some club trophies and doing that stuff for a bit?

Be that old guy who wins loads of cups.

It's too much, Harry.

Thanks.

But like, he needs to do something else.

What do you think, George, of Thomas Tuchel or Eddie Howe seen as the hot favourites?

I saw that David Beckham is 150 to 1, the same odds as David Moyes.

and Michael Owen at 250 to 1, which I would quite like.

And Stuart Pierce was 100 to 1, which would be great fun, but Tuchel or how?

At least Beckham, Owen, and Stuart Pierce have actually been to major tournaments before as more than a fan or a pundit, which is at least some relevant experience.

I mean, that's the thing that worries me: is

as a nation and the FA should have learned a lot from the Gareth Southgate appointment.

It happened by mistake, let's be honest.

He wasn't meant to be the person who was coming into it, it was meant to be Big Sam.

He came in, and we saw that actually elite

being perceived to be an elite coach, maybe not that important.

Having a vested interest in the development of English talent and having a deep knowledge of the FA and its processes, pretty important.

Representing the nation, being good with the media, very important.

And it feels like after four games of Lee Carsley, we've gone back to where's Fabio Capello?

Like, where is this unicorn of an elite manager who has never managed a country before, who's never managed in an international break before, whose total back catalogue in CV is club football and league campaigns?

And let's go out and let's spend loads of money to get them in with no prior knowledge of or no vested interest in English football.

And, you know, there's a chance that Thomas Tuchel might be a genius appointment.

You know, he's someone who has won the Champions League with Chelsea.

So a knockout tournament where you have to prepare prepare for individual,

you know, for

opponents rather than a league campaign.

He's someone who's clearly meticulous with the details.

And maybe he'd be brilliant.

But it just feels to me like we're walking back into the same trap again and failing to notice the nuance of international football.

And when you look at the most successful managers in the space that England are trying to dominate, where you look at Argentina, who appointed a manager where the whole nation basically scoffed and said, who is this guy?

What are we doing?

And they've won a World Cup in the Copper America.

You look at

the conqueror of England in the summer in the Spanish manager who was brought in through their youth system, who had a good understanding of Spanish youth players who'd managed in tournaments before.

The evidence to me suggests, and even Mancini, who won the Euros, like, look what happened to Italy under Mancini after that.

I would say the evidence suggests that international football is almost a different sport when it comes to coaching than club football.

And yet, the desire seems to be, again to basically ignore the learnings from Southgate, ignore the learnings from what's been going on.

And I totally accept there may not be an outstanding candidate who fits that profile beyond Carsley,

but the perception that we can go out and bring in someone who's won Champions Leagues and done well in the Bundesliga and the Premier League, and that will make them a good fit for England is ignoring history, it's ignoring evidence in my mind.

I think Pep was interviewed on some Italian television show in the last few days, and he was asked about the England job if he would take it.

And he pointedly didn't say he wouldn't.

And there have been suggestions that the FA should break the bank and

go all out to get him if he were to quit or finish up with City at the end of the season.

I'd be curious to know what you three as England fans would think of that idea.

I'm not so sure it would be a good one, but...

I would really look forward to, you know, when we're playing Malta, and he says they are so so so good

i'd look forward to that and you know i would hear like a sort of england hoodie with like the three lions sunken would he sing the anthem i think you'd have to go for it like i think you'd have to go for it and see what happens would be my view i don't know what you think barney yeah i mean he's he's a super brilliant coach on the on the details uh the players would adore him it's not anything it's nothing like anything he's ever done before it's the opposite of everything he's ever done before i i mean he is so involved you know to the extent of painting lines on the practice pitches that he wants his players to stand on you're not gonna be able to do that with england you're also not gonna be able to just buy lots of very powerful players with england or write off a hundred million pound player if you don't think they quite fit your system um but he he's a genius so geniuses are quite good at doing things i just don't think like joy says it's a different It's a different sport and I'd be very interested to see how this absolute control freak maniac dealt with it.

That would be a very interesting social experiment.

The documentary following him around trying to do this job and going to meetings and going to totally low room temperature things for four whole months of his life where nothing he does matters and he's not on television.

I'd be very interested to watch that.

But the rest of it might be a bit weird.

He'd be the one where you've just got to roll the dice and see what happens because, as Barney says, he's a genius.

Although I do think the accusations about style of play if people are bored of watching them pass it backwards and sideways then I'm not sure they'll enjoy watching Peps England but you know the the irony is the one the one

weakness you could argue the one area in his managerial career where where Pep Guardiola has underachieved is the Champions League and specifically taking teams away from home in the Champions League and knockout ties and that is going to be basically what Pep Guardiola would be would be judged on is taking England into knockout games albeit there's a home tournament in four years' time.

But that's the other thing to say.

If you are going to look at the England job as a four-year cycle, right now is the most appealing it'll ever be to someone like Pep Guardiola, where you've got an away World Cup in the States, and then you've got a home tournament to try and bring what will be the best opportunity to win a major tournament with a ridiculously deep squad of players.

So, and as we know, there's no chance he'll be managing the team that the nation that he played for due to his very strong Catalan roots.

So,

maybe there's a chance.

Oh no,

Peps overthought the World Cup final.

He's done a league ghastly.

He's played no holding midfielders.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Stephen Katoru, Greek football expert, host of the Hellas Footy Podcast, will join us in just a second.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's bring in Stephen Contouru, Greek football expert, host of the Hellas Footy Podcast.

It's Greece.

Four wins from four are now the best team in the world.

Hey, Stephen, how are you?

Oh, I mean, it seems like every time I come on this podcast, Max, my team has done extremely well.

And I can come on and beam at you all and kind of express how pleased I am at the form of my team this time being Greece.

I mean, Greece haven't lost in an entire year as of last night.

And that does include when we were knocked out in penalties by Georgia because officially that was a draw,

not a loss.

So

it's a really, really good time to be a fan of the Ethniki.

And long may it continue under the new manager, Ivan Jovanovich.

Yeah, I mean, we always look at those games thinking about Thursday night from an English perspective when they lose at Wembley.

But we probably underplay what beating England at Wembley means for inverted commas smaller footballing nations.

Yeah, and I think there was so much context going into this game, you know, obviously with the sad loss of George Baldock and it, it kind of did what we hoped would happen, you know, in such terrible circumstances.

It rallied the team together.

It rallied the fans behind the team.

And I was there at Wembley on the night when we beat England.

And so many times did we hear like, and did I join into cheers of like George Baldock, George Baldock, because that's how much it meant to us, you know, how much he meant to us, that we were overwhelmed by how much he kind of touched so many football fans, you know, not just Sheffield United fans, Banathan A.

Goss fans, or MK Dons fans, the teams he played for, but just all over the world.

And that unity brought us together with the national team in a way that hasn't happened in a very long time because of the discourse surrounding the national team previously, you know, over a decade without qualifying, loads of managers coming and not being able to get a tune out of the players, the Football Federation maybe messing things around and messing with things they shouldn't be.

And it's maybe we whisper in the Greek football circles, this feels kind of like 2004 again,

whether that be kind of a jinx to say, but

it's the best feeling we've had as Greek fans for a very, very long time.

Yeah, I did like the Greek fan with the

written-out placard saying, Champions of Europe, you'll never sing that.

I was actually at Wembley.

I was actually right next to him.

I wasn't too far away.

We got put next to the ultras, and so when you heard all those drums and trumpets and such, I was kind of next to them trying to edge into my seat because there were so many people just kind of standing the whole time.

And suffice to say, some people did steal each other's seats as well.

So me and my friend who went ended up just kind of standing on the steps, but we had a really good shot of the,

we were right by one of the corner flags.

So we saw the winning goal go in from Pavlidis.

And yeah, just an incredible night at Wembley for us, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, I suspect there were some people listening who probably didn't even know that George Baldock had been playing for Greece

or had been in Greece.

So it's understandable how moved the players were, but I found it over both games, you know, the game at Wembley and the victory over the Republic of Ireland, just how much they wanted to make it about George Bulldock.

Because I think he just encapsulated

the minds of the fans because, you know, when you play for the national team, you kind of...

It's almost like you become one of us.

You know, he's in a very similar circumstance to me because, you know, I was born in the UK.

I have Greek Cypriot ancestry and so that's kind of my connection to him i've never spoken to the guy i never spoke to him i never met him but you know it felt like i that it i i even was quite overwhelmed to hear the news of what happened to him and it took me most of the day to recover personally and so you know to play for for greece was such a important thing for us as fans and for the players too you know and it and you know you saw dasospagasetas the captain who is at banathan igos as well you know after when he was holding up the shirt of George Baldock after the game, he was in tears, floods of tears.

And the players emphasised this, the football

has come second in both these fixtures.

It's not about the football, it's about the humanity of losing someone so important to so many people.

George, you wanted to mention him as well.

I mean, obviously, he played for your own club for Oxford United, and he played a lot in the EFL, which you cover.

Yeah, he had two loan spells at Oxfords.

And I can't imagine there are many loanes who've had a bigger impact on a club where, even though he only played 40-odd games for Oxford, he kind of left a legend.

And, you know, Sheffield United fans, MK Dons fans, and Oxford fans, amongst other clubs he played for, absolutely rocked by the news.

And that's the thing to say about him, I think, is that he's someone who...

as a player, the way that he carried himself, the way that he engaged with the fan base and the way that he played on the pitch meant that he was eminently popular everywhere he went.

There are so many footballers who you watch and you think to yourself, like, do they realise how lucky they are as a fan?

Like, do they realize how much this means to us?

And with Bulldock, it was never like that.

You could tell that he respected the fans to such a degree.

And,

you know, it meant that when the news came out last week,

so many of us found it very, very difficult to process because of all football players and, you know, as fans, you

probably get too close to or too attached to these people that you don't know, but he kind of invited you to do so.

So, yeah, just to echo that sentiment where an incredibly difficult loss.

And someone who, you know, anyone who has had had the pleasure of watching George Bordock play for their team, I'm sure, has felt it over the last few days.

In terms of the game against the Republic, Barry, Ireland didn't create a whole lot, did they?

Back to reality after scoring two whole goals in Finland.

Yeah,

it was a very poor first half performance, a much better second half performance.

And after the game, Hymer Halgrimson, our manager, said, it was kind of a weird thing to say, but I suppose it makes sense.

He said, once we can see the goal, the pressure is gone and we start to have belief in what we're doing.

And, you know, it's not really a good place to be where you can't start playing.

You don't have any belief or confidence until you go one or two goals down.

And because you're going to be on the back foot all the time.

Greece are basically our new nemesis, our Denmark, our new Denmark.

They've beaten us four times now in the last 16 months.

So, you know, Greece are better than us,

but most teams are better than us.

And Halgrimson seemed quite upbeat after the game.

And

I'm not sure why.

Because.

Well, it's nice to be upbeat in life generally, isn't it?

It's a nice, you know.

Yeah, well, you know, why not?

There's no point crying over spilt milk, but...

I just don't see much sign of any

new Halgrimson revolution, but you know, he's only had four games in charge so far.

I think he's got a bit of stick as well back home because he he said he he doesn't come over to watch players in in the Premier League and he he said you know he just watches them on Wisecout or whatever and people

found that a bit odd.

But um, yeah, I'm happy to give him a chance.

He doesn't have much to work with and uh yeah, another

you know, we could have lost that by a lot more.

Um, I think 2-0 flattered uh, Ireland.

Is he still living in Iceland?

Do you know, or is he uh no, no?

He's he and his wife have moved over to Dublin, I think.

All right, so I think once you've got to Dublin, I mean, you could get to Manchester, for example.

I mean, I don't know, there probably aren't that many Republican votes because you watched well, I mean, David Connolly one weekend, uh, it was the time he was getting grief for for not going to watch Premier League games, and David Connolly sort of made this itinerary so he could fly to Gatwick and then go and watch Southampton and watch Bournemouth and there were Irish players involved in both games.

I suppose it's up to him what he does.

If he doesn't see the value in doing it, then there's not much point in doing it just to keep other people happy.

I think if David Connolly or any other journeyman centre forward gave me a holiday itinerary, I think I'd be duty bound to take it.

Here it is.

Steve Anthrobus has made this itinerary for you.

You must go.

Of course I would.

stephen finally for you you mentioned 2004 i mean it's good to get carried away isn't it what's your what are the ambitions well i i mean if you'd asked me this before the nations league started my ambition was for us to finish second because you know as barry has mentioned we we've started to anticipate to encounter ireland a fair bit we weren't too worried about about you guys apologies barry um and finland too who've kind of dropped off the last few years after having a bit of an edge over us at times and we still haven't ever beaten them in finland so the game away will be very interesting on match day six.

And we just assumed England would be comfortably the best team because they are comfortably the best team in League B.

But now the

sky's the limit.

We've already guaranteed ourselves a play-off place to League A if we do finish second in the end to England.

The aim now is to qualify for the World Cup.

That was the aim when Ivan Jovanovich came in.

That was the aim of the new Greek Football Federation president who came in over the summer.

And that's not going to change, especially with what we've seen.

The level in which we've kind of stepped up under a coach who's, you know, it sounds weird to say, he's not just a manager, he is a coach, Ivan Jovanovich.

This is a guy who, you know, has managed in Greece for a long time.

He speaks Greek excellently.

If people remember, I said it to Barry when he jumped on the Hellus Football podcast.

He took Abuel, the Cypriot side, if people remember over 10 years ago now, a team that was worth less than 1 million Euros to the quarterfinals of the Champions League, where they stood toe-to-toe with Real Madrid.

This man knows how to take teams that are unfancied and, you know, get the absolute most out of them and more so.

So, with this, with this Greece side, which probably the most talented we've had in a while as well,

we should only be looking at getting to the US, Canada, or Mexico, depending on where we get placed if we do reach that point.

Thanks for coming on, Stephen.

Appreciate your time.

Thank you, Max.

Cheers.

Stephen Contoura there, Greek football expert.

Wales do 2-2 in Iceland.

Barney, I don't know how much you've been following Craig Bell and me, but I'm super impressed by everything he says and does.

I know they were 2-0 up against Iceland, but

and they drew, but he

seems like a brilliant choice of manager.

He's quite a compelling guy.

I've always found him compelling.

I always found the thing he says really interesting, even if I don't quite understand why or

agree with him.

He's always spoke with real honesty.

This is someone who got into a televised spat with Graham Sunis on sort of Sky Supports while he was his manager.

I mean, he's a fascinating guy and kind of a great player as well in his own way.

And I thought they were unlucky here.

You know, two-goal lead, playing really well.

It just didn't last for them.

And, you know, yeah, I thought they were going to win that game.

But there's definitely something there.

And Bellamy has the kind of weird magnetic personality that goes through a group of players in that kind of situation.

He seems well suited to the role.

And yeah, I'm going to look forward to watching them.

Yeah.

the wells goal i mean both wells goals were sort of nico williams passes to harry wilson one that brendan johnson basically the same goal twice wasn't it and um i like people you know saying brennan johnson that you know adds to his rich vein of form it's true but he was basically in the goal when he scored i mean you've got to you've got to you've got to you've got to anticipate i guess um and iceland's opening goal was like a left-footed charisma it was so nice absolutely like the just could watch that all day absolutely beautiful um logie thomason say his name max yeah i know you're absolutely right and he thought he forced the own goal with another outside of the boot yeah he ran down the left cut inside and then he did another one from point blank range off hoard into the goal i i would say i i think bellamy is a great appointment and you can't fault his enthusiasm whatsoever but it was a slightly worrying capitulation by them for being 2-0 up they conceded two they could have conceded three or four more uh they had a clear one off the line i think from from good johnson jr

uh He missed another good chance.

They hit the woodwork a couple of times, Iceland did.

And I think it's not the first time under Bellamy that Wales have had a good first half, bad second half, but they're still unbeaten, and he certainly talks a good game.

They'll be really annoyed about that goal, the first Iceland goal, because it was brilliant, but it was from a corner.

And that's what, like, it's one of those weird moments where the game falls apart.

Professional footballers can do that.

If you just give them loads of space they will do amazing things like that just casually tap it into the corner with you they'll be really embarrassed by that goal and bellamy will be furious and i'd like to see him being furious i'd like to be on on the wall while he gets furious about it because that was a that was a really bad goal to give as good as the finish was a really bad one to give away Scotland lost 2-1 in Croatia and they won a lot I think Barry they did you know they gave a decent account of themselves they got a lot of players out you know Croatia are still good aren't they and they I mean they were very close to getting a draw here which perhaps they didn't deserve but a correct but tight VAR call in the fifth minute of injury time cost them.

Yeah, I think people were kind of expecting them to get hammered here

because they had quite a few players out.

Although, um, we were told on the radio yesterday, only one or two of them were sort of first choice, including Angus Gunn, who many people, Scotland fans, don't think should be their first choice goalkeeper.

John McGee, obviously, is out, uh, James Forrest as well, Kieran Tierney, Ivan Perisich,

I think 137 caps for him.

He played well.

Luca Modric, his 181st cap, still there.

Maybe Barney should write an article saying it's time to put Modric out to pasture.

What's he done?

Just sick of watching him.

Aren't you sick of watching Luca Modric?

What a chore it is.

But yeah, Ben Doak was very impressive.

for Scotland, Billy Gilmore as well.

And

Steve Clark, opinions seem divided over whether he should stay in the job or not.

I think Scotland have only won one in 16, and that was against Gibraltar.

But they didn't play terribly here, even though they lost.

And

the question is: if Clark goes, who comes in?

David Moyes seems to be the obvious contender, but

and I would imagine he would love the job, but it will be interesting to see if they stick or twist with Stevie Clark.

Oh, yeah.

David Moyes is uh has slightly higher odds on becoming the next scotland manager than the next england manager uh richard says um you and murray on the pods on wednesday by the way uh after scotland's game with portugal uh richard says nations league group c3 has had four goals in six games maybe it's for the best that no tv channel wants to show northern ireland yes they drew 0-0 with belarus they play bulgaria tomorrow night um barney you've been across uh lichtenstein gibraltar well yeah i mean i was quite interested in that game before it kicked off.

It just looked like an interesting situation.

Essentially, it's like two villages playing each other.

I mean, in terms of population.

And then afterwards, I saw that it had been nil-nil with three shots on target between them, three corners, all game, lots of fouls.

And Gibraltar had a man sent off.

So I looked up the highlights and

that was fun because you know when you look at highlights, you saw Google highlights and these weird simulations were like someone simulated the game on some kind of FIFA-type software.

Do you know what?

That is the absolute fucking bane of my life when I'm trying to watch the highlights of a Carabao Cup match, and then I get FIFA 2023.

You know, but how long does it take you to work it out?

I finally have to stare at it for about 10 seconds.

This is a bit weird, camera work here.

But the point is, someone had done that for Gibraltar, Lichtenstein, 0-0, which I appreciate the work.

but I did I did eventually find it and it was really it was a very brutal and angry game um and Gibraltar had a goal ruled out um they could have won it they went absolutely mental when they scored and then uh Dan Bent was sent off for two two bookings I thought was harsh but he was sent off giving away a penalty in the 93rd minute that third minute of stoppage time which was then brilliantly saved by Gibraltar's keeper and they're now top of that wow that group um and the stadium echoed to their empty cries of joy.

It did look more exciting on the FIFA sit, it looked more proper, but it was a brilliant game.

Because I've obviously, once I've realised it's a computer game, I'm just so annoyed with the internet.

I'm just sort of like pressing back as many times as possible.

So, do they actually make the highlight of the match?

Like, do they actually, or do they, what do they do?

I don't know.

Someone has made that happen, and I don't know what if they're aping the game or they're simulating it or what.

George, you're young.

Do you know what happens in these?

Do you know what we're talking about?

Yeah, yeah, I've seen those videos.

I mean, I think I prefer those marginally to the ones where you click on it and it's just some music and some weird garish.

Yeah,

yeah, there's a guy, there's a guy,

a guy in India is talking about Southgate.

At least you're getting a bit of action with FIFA.

There's like an AI voice saying,

Did you see the thing Mark Langdon sent us the other day where

someone had sort of fed Thursday's Football Weekly into an AI generator and it provided a three or four minute summary from

these two AI voices and it was all complete nonsense until they mentioned my famously tactical astute mind

so work to do the robots aren't AI is coming for us the robots still have work to do don't they all right that'll do for for part two.

Part three, we'll rattle through some EFL.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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A proper football journalist, man.

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welcome to part three of the guardian football weekly um bit of a efl look we talked about reading before george um uh royals review got in touch to say any thoughts on the situation at reading and their predicament with the chinese government Can you enlighten people who might not be across this?

Yeah, there was an exclusive in The Guardian from Matt Hughes last Thursday and I mean it goes from bad to worse really for Reading fans who were wondering why the takeover, Rob Kuwig's takeover that was all but announced.

You had pictures of Kuig at the training ground at the local pub posting his subscription to watch their games from abroad and other things and it fell through and seemingly no one knew why.

But it's reportedly due to this debt that Reading owner Dai Yong owns to a Chinese bank that he has basically taken against the stadium and that means that should that loan not be repaid then the

stadium would in effect off the back of a a takeover go into the hands of the bank who have close ties to the Chinese government which for reasons I probably don't need spelling out is suboptimal for any party and it looks looks like it's going to probably frustrate the process even further.

The club put out a statement saying that another party have entered the period of exclusivity at a similar time to it being also reported that a close friend of Young's is interested in buying.

In Matt Hughes' piece, he says that there's very little optimism that this deal will go through.

So, I mean, it's one of those things, this, where right now we have a club who hold the points record for the championship, who were not very long ago an upwardly mobile Premier League side.

And

right now we're in the hands of an owner who seemingly has no interest in the day-to-day funding of the club, who've been put under multiple transfer embargoes, who've been put under a transfer embargo at the moment, despite already being unwilling to pay a fee for any players who've suffered relegations and points deductions.

And this crisis is becoming an existential one where if Dai Young does not sell the club and if he cannot sell the club without paying this £55 million debt, I don't really see a way out right now.

This is both like from a short-term perspective absolutely terrifying where we could feasibly lose Reading in the near future if it isn't sorted and also in my mind even though there's very little an independent regulator could do now with the Reading situation it's another example of why we need an independent regulator to come in and ensure that when new owners come in and buy these football clubs the the rigorous testing is is stronger and to ensure that club assets cannot be used as portent in this way

because

it's desperate.

Could we be sure that a regulator would have stopped Dai-Yong buying Redding?

No, no.

I mean,

it's not a golden egg.

I think that

the fact that we can't be sure that that would be the case doesn't mean that it isn't a process that would improve things.

I mean, it's still got to serve as evidence as to why it's important that it is introduced in order to adopt the recommendations from the Crouch report, which included completely completely revolutionizing the the um

the the owner's test in order to to ensure that those who are purchasing a football club are put through a more rigorous process um so i feel for wedding fans right now um and it's you know it's a bit of a sad case where

the way that you know we see it with our podcast as well where we would love to talk about this the whole time but there is a lack of interest generally people like football for football and when you start talking about scary scary clubs going out of business and things people tend to scrub um which is a shame well it's the same isn't it when we're talking about profit and sustainability rules and all that crack or manchester city versus the premier league it's it's quite impenetrable and and boring really

this may be a stupid question but why did die young buy reading in the first place was it with the intention of making money getting to the premier league and making money because he clearly has interest in owning Reading now.

And I haven't seen any reports to suggest that

his lack of willingness to fund the club day to day is anything less than just a lack of willingness rather than a lack of funds.

It was part of that huge period of Chinese investment within English football, which is basically now gone.

In terms of the

reasons as to why that happened, you'll have to ask them.

But he's kind of a relic of that very short and strange era.

Well, I think there's two things.

We do have to be

we have to be a bit careful when we talk about the Chinese government.

Obviously, you know, there are a great many things about China that you might disapprove of, but if it were the Austrian government or the American government, you know,

that's the way businesses work.

in China and the way banks work.

It doesn't necessarily mean something any more terrible than

you know, a central bank bailing something out if it comes to it.

The second thing is: this is chickens coming home to roost.

I mean, I don't see any difference there between that and what's happening in the Premier League with sovereign wealth funds.

Essentially, the government of Abu Dhabi is attempting to bankrupt the top tier of English football via lawfare right now.

And that to me is extraordinary that people aren't screaming from the rooftops about it.

But there we go.

If you invite sovereign states with political aims to get involved or close to your football, that's not what's happened at Reading, but you will have some quite complicated problems.

On a slightly different note, James says, what kind of restaurant serves both spring rolls and fettuccine

regarding the spring rolls that I gave to a listener who didn't, who thought it might be me, but wasn't sure enough to suggest it was.

It was pub grub.

So, you know, a varied menu is, I think, acceptable on a pub menu.

Ollie says, how much was the crab?

You left us on a cliffhanger, Barry.

I don't want to say.

It's embarrassing.

Wow.

Can you tell us afterwards?

Okay, it was £18

for not much crab.

For one portion of crab.

The way you talked about it actually made me think it was more expensive, but even still.

Okay, right.

Well, I would consider that very expensive.

Well, it gave you two dinners, though, didn't it?

It did, yeah.

Right, okay.

So, yeah, no, it's not cheap, but it's, you know, it's

I mean, I wouldn't buy it.

It's very nice.

But, you know, but sure, if you you buy like a steak, you're going to be...

You know, most fish as well gets expensive, doesn't it really?

So I, you know,

I think it's okay.

It's within the

realms of acceptability.

Unless you do it every day, unless you just only now eat crab for the rest of your life.

Yeah, breakfast, dinner, and lunch and dinner.

That's all I eat.

Except when I splash out on lobster.

Yeah, George says, what other dishes has Barry cooked recently?

I loved hearing about his crab pasta.

What's for tonight?

Food podcasts are very popular.

This could get us some good numbers.

I'd have to get on Gray Stent's podcast to talk about my cooking and my eating habits.

So you're not telling us what's for dinner tonight.

I mean, I hate to press you on this.

I don't know yet.

I don't know.

Well, there's a pub

quite near me in Clark.

Barry, Barry, there's a pub.

It's not a recipe.

Sorry.

It's not a deal.

It has an excellent kitchen and I can get meals for half price with my chicken.

I see.

I thought it was an age thing.

I was like, wow, you've reached a level where

by being 50 plus, you can now get an old person's half-price pub grub for Barry.

Charity meals in Brixton for Barry.

Okay.

So, yeah, I might go there.

Okay, well, that's nice.

You'll see.

All right, well, I feel like that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Barney.

Thank you.

I have been not pun pleased.

Okay.

To have not been absent.

Perfect.

That's what we wanted.

George, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Barry.

Thanks.

Football Weekly is produced by Dole Grove.

Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.

Tomorrow, also listen to The Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

Big win for Chelsea at Arsenal at WSL over the weekend.

I'll cover that and all the other stuff as well, wherever you get your podcast.

This is The Guardian.