A night to forget for England as Greece make history: Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly, the hand-brakeless England lose at home to Greece.

Vangelis Pavlidis, the hero, the winner in injury time, completely deserved.

It looked like Dude Bellingham had rescued England after a pretty average performance.

And it doesn't fit a stretch to say this might cost Lee Carsley the job.

Starting with no recognised striker, finishing with two of them, Greece caused them a lot of problems.

The game, of course, completely overshadowed by the tragic death of George Bullock, just 31 years old.

Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland win in Finland, Heimer Halgrimson's first points.

Also today, Manchester City claimed victory over the Premier League in the not the 115 Chargers.

case, while the Premier League claimed victory over Manchester City in the not the 115 Chargers case.

Jogen Klopp takes the fizzy drinks money.

We'll look back on Andrea Iniesta's career after he announced his retirement and will pay tribute to Johann Niskens, who's passed away at the age of 73.

Axel Tuingzabe has injured himself during the washing up and I have a deep-fried food clarification for two listeners.

All that plus your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hey Max.

John Bruin, hello.

Hello.

And a debut for Peene Muhlenstein.

Hello, Peene.

Thanks for coming on.

Hello.

Thank you for having me.

Charlie says, is it the current Mrs.

Rushton and baby Ian's turn to sit in the loo this time?

Just for clarification, after two podcasts sitting on side saddle on a toilet in the Byron Bay setup, I am in the living room and the family are out.

We are recording after full-time in the England game.

And thank you to John, who is also on holiday in Byron Bay, who offered me a bedroom to record this.

But I am okay.

Let's start then at Wembley.

England won Greece too.

Dave says, How far up or down is the handbrake?

Was there even a handbreak?

England, Barry, were bad, and Greece were really good in this.

Yeah, England were bad, and it's a weird sort of game to pick the bones out of.

Let's face it, the Nations League is a tournament.

Many people still don't really know what it's all about.

It's supposed to pit, you know, eliminate friendlies in which elite elite european teams beat mountaintops or archipelagos 15-0

in uh games no one is particularly interesting and it was widely perceived england were

vastly superior to the three opponents in this particular four team group in nations league group b2

uh and the other two being Finland and Ireland.

They're beating Finland.

They're beating Ireland pretty handily.

And I think everyone expected them to beat Greece tonight and

yeah they were very much second best but ultimately it's a defeat that doesn't it's a big win for Greece because you know Greece the former European champions and it's not particularly a big defeat for England the two-time European final losers but

It's a big defeat, I think, for Lee Karsley, who kind of threw a dice tonight that I don't think he really needed to, lining up with no striker.

Harry Kane wasn't fit enough to start or even, I think, be named among the substitutes.

So instead of throwing Ollie Watkins in his place,

looks like Lee might have tried to be a bit too clever and it backfired on him.

Whether or not that's entirely his fault, there's only so much the manager is responsible for.

There was some shocking defending by England in this game, but they've lost, and he has now given the FA a reason not to give him the job on a full-time basis when I think it wasn't really necessary to take a gamble like he did.

Yeah,

I suppose the advantage peen of recording at this time is we're not listening to the phonings or looking at the internet of people, just England fans, losing their minds.

But I think Barry has a point that this could cost Carsley his job.

Whether that's fair or not,

he doesn't have many games to prove himself, and he has not proved himself this evening.

Yeah, I think I totally agree.

It was a huge risk, and especially when you're in as an interim basis and you make such sort of a big call.

I think straight away when people saw the starting lineup, you look at the names on that list, you look at the players.

You know, each player in their own right is exciting and has, you know, brilliant qualities that they bring to a squad, but it's whether they work together well.

And there were times in this game where players were just getting in the way of each other.

You looked at them defensively, you know, with some of the goals that they had conceded.

Um, I mean, what Greece had the ball in the back of the net four times felt like about a hundred times, like the you know, just having to say even told you

only two of them counted five times at the back of the net.

And yeah, defensively, it wasn't good, but also at the same time, Foden, Palmer, Bellingham together in a starting lineup, you think, you know, on paper, that sounds brilliant.

It just didn't work.

It seemed confusing.

And then, you know, these things of playing a false nine and not having an out-and-out striker.

And then in the end, they ended up with two strikers on the pitch.

So it was a confusing decision, I suppose.

But I guess, you know, there was pressure already on him to make a different call, to try and switch things up.

He did it.

It didn't work.

So it'd be interesting to see what he says afterwards and what his sort of thought process was.

You know, I think it isn't the first time that they've ever lined up like that, Palmer Foden and Bellingham together in an England team.

So I think they were trying to work out on the radio if England had ever played without a real nine ever before.

But

I don't know.

I mean, it's funny, isn't it?

With all the sort of talk of, you know, as Producer Joel says it, it felt like the sort of lineup that England fans are crying out for about three minutes into the first group game of any major tournament, doesn't it?

And

I just feel like sort of regardless of the...

the people on the pitch and where they were, I've just seen this England performance before.

It felt quite nostalgic.

It took me back to the tactical agonies that we went through during the Euros.

It was released the handbrake, Gareth, actually put the handbrake back on Gareth.

Connor Gallagher is the answer to everything, Gareth.

Oh, no, he isn't.

And so what Lee Carsy did essentially is pick the team that the fans wanted.

Now, the fans didn't know this, but the fans...

Didn't they there's been the Harry Kane debate, hasn't there?

Well, what would England be like without Harry Kane?

You know, it's time we got rid of Harry Kane.

Well, England without Harry Kane didn't look very good, did they?

Jude Bellingham was a false nine.

Listen, some of us are old school here.

Jude Bellingham is not the type of player that likes a

centre half snapping at his heels.

He showed that from quite early on.

Jude Bellingham played well, actually, when he dropped deeper in midfield.

There was that interesting shot at half-time, just after half-time.

They came in to the pits together, and it was Palmer.

It was Bellingham.

It was Foden in conference about what they were going to do together and it appears that they don't have much to say to each other or operate in each other with each other.

The thing is, football, modern football, you probably only need one or two of those players, possibly only one, and then the rest of the team have to work hard.

And what the Greece coach, Ivan Jovanovic,

Andy Warhol lookalike,

realised was that

England were going to play that formation and pick them off.

Poor old Declan Rice, much criticised player, but Declan Rice was left to do an enormous amount of work.

As soon as England presses forwards, the ball goes over, Greece attack at speed, and you're almost looking, I'm going to say this, you're almost looking like a Manchester United on a weekend scenario, aren't you?

Where the team are just peeling through the midfield and creating chances, and, you know, as it turns out, getting the ball in the net four or five times.

Greece were excellent.

Let's not dismiss that.

Greek football is doing well.

Remember, Olympiarcus won the conference league.

It's on the up.

Are we suggesting that Lee Karsley in his moment of truth took them a little bit too lightly?

That's going to be an accusation, I think.

Yeah, I mean, John's right, Barry, isn't he?

Pavlidis took both goals really well.

And they picked England off on the break a lot and just totally does they did totally deserve this.

Obviously, it was a very emotional day for them.

They dedicated that goal to George Baldock.

Miguel Delaney writing, Greek players look to be in tears as they celebrate for Baldock.

So actually, if you think about psychologically, for the Greek players as well, to have to play this game that they didn't necessarily want to play, and then to turn up and put in a performance like that, it's a great credit to them.

That's an immense credit to them.

I believe they asked for the game to be postponed.

UEFA's fixture calendar said no.

And so it was played.

I think it probably should have been postponed, if I'm honest, because George Baldock, obviously, he had Panathenikos teammates in that team.

I think there was two or three Panathenikos players in the Greek squad.

He's obviously a member of that team.

He's also

played with or against

quite a few of the players in the English team who would have been similarly distraught at his

passing,

which shocked everyone, obviously.

He seems to have been a lovely fellow who

nobody has a bad word to say about.

And obviously, our thoughts go out to

his wife and his child and his friends and family.

Yeah, I was wondering how this game would go.

I thought it might just end up being a massive non-event because the players would their hearts wouldn't be in it, their heads would be all over the place.

But fair play to them.

They put on a bit of a show, didn't they?

It was nice that Pavlidas dedicated both his goals to George Baldock.

Well taken goals.

I mean Peene's already said Greece had the ball in the net five times.

They nearly had it in the net six times, but that for um incredible hook off the line by Levi Colwell.

So maybe that was something a bit special.

They definitely deserve to win this game and it is an absolute credit to them that they were able to to put in a performance like this.

I mean it would be trite to say they did it for George, but maybe they did do it for George.

And if they did, then they did George proud.

Pean, Jordan Pickford spent a lot of the night with his hands, both hands raised, sort of going, yeah, that was me.

And he has never let England down.

And I suppose this game doesn't really matter, but he did not have a great evening.

No, not at all.

I think,

I mean,

again, it goes back to sort of those defensive issues that they had in the game.

And it just looked like they were a little bit all over the place.

And as you mentioned, there, that the Levi Cole will save off the line.

You know, those kind of things should not be happening as much as Levi will want to keep that onto his CV as a defensive block that he will want to keep there forever.

But at the same time, it's like those are the situations that shouldn't be happening.

And there felt like a level of uncertainty.

I don't know.

It just didn't feel solid today at the back.

And obviously, Jordan Pickford is one of those goalkeepers who

has been so trusted for England for so long.

And rightly so, you know, he puts in performances that make people trust him.

And I think it was today, it just seemed

a little bit all over the place.

They just didn't click, they didn't gel the way that we were expecting them to.

As we said at the start, when people were getting excited, they kind of had put the pressure on Lee Carlsley to put this team out.

And then all of a sudden, it was, you know, the way that Greece had played, they had some brilliant chances, some good shots as well.

And yeah, it just looked nervous and not cohesive at all.

Could he have had a penalty in injury time when Madwecki was taken down, John?

I wondered.

Referee Colombo said, No, just one more thing.

But

I really just wanted to say that because I found out the referee was called Colombo in the last minute.

But I think it could have been.

It could have been.

Not that they necessarily deserved it.

Well, yeah, I mean,

if we're going to say this game doesn't really matter, which I think it actually does, in a sense, of England should be in

the Nations League top group, shouldn't they, really?

I mean, let's face it, they are an elite team.

They reach Euro's finals, lose them, as Barry will remind us.

And to lose at home to Greece is a bad result.

And I suppose, John, it does matter in the sense of this could dictate if Lee Carson gets the job.

So in terms of the direction of English football, the England football team, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's actually a very, very important.

Yeah, I mean, if you, if you're, okay.

Wherever Graham Potter is, if Graham Potter sat in his Sussex mansion tonight, he's thinking he's going to get a call.

Eddie Howe in his Northumberland mansion is thinking

this call could be coming soon because Lee Carsley, it was in his possession, wasn't it?

England was reasonably impressive in those previous two Nations League games.

This was not impressive.

And Lee Carsley is not an experienced manager.

And that's one of the things.

That looked the selection of

a rather idealistic manager, you might say, or inexperienced.

And

one of the issues, of course,

and we don't know this.

I mean, as we speak,

the press conferences going on, a lot of it is media management as well.

We learned that under Gareth Southgate.

How does Lee Carsley talk round what's been actually a fairly disastrous performance

and convince the men of the press, it should they matter, that this is the man?

And we know that the FA respond to the media.

So,

yeah,

it suddenly puts huge pressure on the next game.

Uh, when this was supposed to be, oh, yeah, it's a boring international break, it doesn't mean anything.

Well, actually, it does now, doesn't it?

Yeah, Peane, just on Bellingham, and I was thinking this when he equalised and you thought, okay, he's rescued England.

And I felt this during the Euros, and you know, especially when I said they've got to sub him off, it's ridiculous.

And then he scored that overhead kick, and you know, I was ridiculed.

But I get this sense that you do with Beckham, that he's trying, he's always trying to do everything,

and he doesn't need to do everything.

And so he ends up being the savior, or not quite, when actually

it sort of defeats, basically it defeats my argument when I watch him and I think, stop trying to do everything.

Other players are good.

Like, let other players do some stuff.

But then because he's doing everything, he does the thing that means, does that make any sense?

That he's just relax a bit.

I know, but this is the thing.

You say that to someone that is Jude Bellingham, who is a world-class football player.

And of course, he wants to do everything because he has that trust in himself to be able to do it and to be able to deliver the goods.

And the thing is, even when you watch this game with England, and Greece played so well, and you know, it was a testament to the fact that they got this victory, and it was a huge victory for them, and what a night for them.

But at the same time, you're still watching this game thinking, surely Jude Bellingham's going to do something.

Surely Jude Bellingham will save the day for England.

And, you know, he thought he did at the end.

You know, he thought he got that equaliser and that was going to be that.

They would settle for the draw.

Obviously, it wasn't to be for England and it worked out well for Greece.

But I see what you're saying in the sense that he's become this

super shining star for England, rightly so, because of the player that he is.

And I suppose he does probably carry that pressure of thinking, okay, we're not playing very well.

We need to get ourselves out of this sticky situation.

Am I going to be the person to try and take this on?

Obviously, he was playing in a slightly different position today, obviously, with Real Madrid playing a slightly deeper role, and then he did move back.

I always find it interesting as well when you look at national teams comparing them to the club football that they play, is what's their favourite position, and when they have to kind of come out of that and then suddenly do really great things again.

It's like, how do they switch that so quickly and to be able to gel so cohesively?

Obviously, with Lee Carsey as well, it doesn't get that much time with the players, you know.

And it's interesting when you do make different calls about formations and trying things out, and players in different positions and whatnot.

To not have that much time to be able to gel with the players makes it even more difficult, and then to have to do it at Wembley with thousands of fans around you.

Um,

yeah, it's a tricky one, I suppose.

I felt a bit sorry for Rico Lewis, he's clearly not a left-footed player playing left-back.

He's a very good player, there's no doubt about that.

Um, he's probably more a midfielder than a defender, you'd say, by breeding.

We've got a bit of the trent about him.

We could talk about Trent's defending.

I think we know where we stand on that, although there's some beautiful passing from him,

but

I was saying before,

you know, England without a left side again.

I mean, Anthony Gordon

didn't really take his chance as an England.

You know, I mean, he's sort of had a pretty ropey week, hasn't he?

He missed that penalty.

And I mean, I really like Anthony Gordon as a player.

It just didn't happen for him.

And the other thing is that, as I said, the Declan Rice has got to be an even bigger peg.

He's got a sort of

bigger hole to fill.

That's the thing.

He's got to sort of enlarge himself as a peg.

What is it?

It's a sort of tree trunk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a sort of tree trunk that he has to plug into the front.

It's, yeah,

it

didn't work.

I don't think we'll be doing that again.

It may be another 150 years until England plays without a striker after that one because it really didn't work.

And do you know what?

Ollie Watkins comes on and within

two touches, could have scored, should have scored.

Yeah.

I think he should have scored.

Yeah.

And the Ollie Watkins that you see in the Premier League would have scored that.

It's, you know,

England needs a centre forward.

All teams need a centre forward.

Unless you're Spain in 2008 or whatever, or 2012, when they were just

taking a piss out of everyone, really, weren't they, by not having a striker.

I did notice during this game that I don't know if it'll make a difference when it comes down to the FA making their decision, but John mentioned uh eddie how and graham potter who could often be seen say on match of the day or during games uh writing in notebooks with biros making you know crib notes for their half-time space

uh tonight lee carsley was writing on a tablet with uh i think what you call a stylus or what looked like a a knitting needle.

I was quite surprised by that.

I don't think it affected England's performance in any way, but I think it's

in the FA.

A pen back of a fag packet, man.

Right.

Was it like an etcher sketch or something?

The dinosaurs in the FA will be against that, yeah.

A pen like this.

Yes, that's exactly what it's like.

See, Peene is a different generation.

All right, Pete, there you go.

We're all there with our.

Very modern manager, Lee Carsley.

Whereas I'm ink and quill.

That's the only way I will write.

Max has his vellum or a wax tablet.

Look, you've already mentioned it, Barry, and the game was obviously totally overshadowed by

the tragic death of George Baldock.

It's just worth, before we break, just reading a few of the tributes

from people who grew up around him.

Ben Chilwell grew up mates with him and wrote on Instagram from hitting the bars together when we were younger in Milton Keynes to playing each other in the Premier League.

I'm Heartbroken, rest in peace.

Sammy Carruthers, who played with him at Sheffield United, obviously had his greatest part of his career at sheffield united neander chris wilder he just said brother i don't know what to say i love you man i miss you you were my best mate for years and years and i was so lucky to live my football career with you and live with you the world has lost an amazing human but i know you're in heaven my friend i will cherish every memory i made with you you'll always be in my heart ollie mcburney wrote i'm genuinely can't believe you've gone brother i feel sick one of the best people i've ever met you were loved by everyone you came across my heart is broken for your beautiful little family sleep well gb i love you mates Yeah, as we've already mentioned, incredibly sad.

And our thoughts for this family and friends.

And we'll be back in a second.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

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We already know that Remarkable's the leader in the paper tablet category, digital notebooks that give you everything you love about paper, but with the power of modern technology.

But there's something new and exciting.

The remarkable Paper Pro move.

remarkable a brand name and an adjective man yeah it's their most portable paper tablet yet it holds all your notes to-dos and documents but it's smaller than a paperback and an incredible 0.26 inches thin so it slips easily into a bag or jacket pocket perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office like maybe a football journalist Barry although not like you

a proper football journalist man exactly too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out this paper tablet doesn't It'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention, so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Finland won the Republic of Ireland two.

John, you had an eye on this before we go to the joyous Barry

who was giving a stick in the WhatsApp group as Ireland won and England lost.

But did Ireland deserve this?

What do you think?

Let's say yes, yes.

Two

great goals

after a goal that was absolutely farcical, a mistake by Nathan Collins that I really cannot believe.

He just sort of left the ball, and then the

finished striker just galloped through, scored, turned, and thought, did that really just happen?

Liam Scales,

yes,

this is what me and you annoyed Barry with, isn't it?

By saying this was a classic Irish goal in the sense that it was a crashing header in the style of

what we recall of the

Irish team over the years.

The glory is.

I'm surprised, Barry,

you were upset at this, you know, yeah, this love of the Irish DNA.

What, you're surprised I was upset because you were sending me condescending, what's that messages about the quality of the goal Ireland had scored?

Ireland had scored a goal.

Absolutely focused on the goal.

And you're belittling it.

Well, in no sense, was I.

I found your description of the goal belittling and condescending.

And the fact that you were sending me these messages while England were being given the runaround by Greece,

I found slightly distasteful.

But, you know, we move on.

Let's move on to the second goal, which was even better and was a great goal.

But it was scored by someone who I noticed was playing for Ireland the other week, Robbie Brady.

Now, I'm going to confess this.

I did think Robbie Brady retired some years ago, but he's actually only 32.

And we all remember him for when he scored the goal against Italy back in Euro 2016.

It was a great goal.

He was famously, I'm over the Mewin'.

Yes, exactly.

I'm over the Mewin'.

A broad Dublin accent.

Yes, yes.

And he deserves to be over the moon after this goal.

Though I should say that the contribution by Festi

Ebasele of Watford for this goal was absolutely wonderful.

A brilliant run, great cross, great finish.

That was a great goal by Ireland.

Ireland scored an even better goal than the classic Irish goal that I said before.

Yeah.

Great night for Ireland.

Sorry, Peene, you have to be part of this domestic

that's just broken out.

No, my love for the header was it was a, you know, of all the people who would be up for a get-it-launched goal,

meant genuinely Barry, it would be me and John.

But yeah, well done to Hymer Halgrimson.

I think I was hearing that he didn't call it, he decided to, he described it as a downward spiral rather than a losing run.

That's what he just said.

I can't.

I would say more of a tailspin.

Whatever.

But well done, Ireland.

Well done.

Well done, Ireland.

They played Greece on Sunday.

We'll cover that on Monday's pod, of course.

Erling Haaland surpassed Norway's all-time goal scoring record.

He scored his 33rd and 34th international goals in their game against Slovenia.

To take him ahead of Jorgen Juva, who played in the 1920s and Thursdays.

Thursdays?

Who played in the 1920s and 30s?

Sort of.

You can keep that in.

I've got a troublesome mouth ulcer.

That's my excuse.

I feel we, I mean, unless any of you know about Jürgen Juver, perhaps it's one for Wilson or Lars.

Wales away, Iceland tonight, Scotland and Croatia tomorrow.

We'll talk about those games and the Finn and England game on Monday.

Now, I suppose we're obliged to talk about Manchester City against the Premier League.

I'm just trying to see.

Yes, no happy faces on the Zoom call.

They have claimed success in their fight against the Premier League and its

rules over associated party transactions.

The Premier League have claimed success in their fight against Manchester City and its rules.

and its rules over associated party transactions.

Okay, so the verdict laid down by a panel of judges at an arbitration tribunal appeared to confirm the necessity of APT rules and the Premier League's right to enforce them.

Barry, you've spent the last few days trying to understand it?

I've spent time trying to understand it.

And look, I'm not a solicitor.

I'm not an accountant.

I'm not a lawyer, barrister.

I wish we didn't have to discuss this sort of thing.

Both sides claim victory.

Barney Ronne

wrote an article in which he likened it to the ref raising both boxers' arms at the end of a bruising fight, and I suppose that's kind of it.

There's a hundred and seventy-five-page document there for anyone to read if they're of a mind.

I'll be honest, I'm in the middle of

Richard Osme's latest novel and the latest Rebus arrived in the post today.

So I don't have time to read a 175-page

document

on

associated poetry transactions.

But it does seem like Manchester City, who, I'll be honest, I'm one of those people who hopes they lose everything

and as Pep says, get wiped off the face of the earth.

It would amuse me greatly.

But they do seem to have

had

a victory of sorts insofar as this is what I've taken from this.

And I'm not going to lie.

As soon as I saw that Kieran Maguire, friend of the show, and Kevin Day, friend of our Sunday radio show, had covered it on their Price of Football podcast, I went and I said, well, they'll have done a version for dummies like me.

And they had, and I listened to their

Man City versus the Premier League for dummies.

And I'm still not massively clued in as to what happened.

But what Manchester City have done is gone, right?

So we all know about these inflated market value sponsorship deals they're accused of having.

We're all aware of those.

But what they've done is raise the issue that loads of owners,

for example, or Mashiri at Everton, Tony Bloom at Brighton,

Stan Cronkie at Arsenal, they loan the clubs money at very tiny rates of interest or no interest rates at all.

And Manchester City have raised the issue.

Well, oh, hold on, you're accusing us of this, getting an unfair advantage through these inflated market value sponsorship.

I've got bored even just saying inflated market value sponsorship.

Yes, me too.

But what up what about these owners who are loaning their clubs, you know, hundreds of millions of pounds and not charging any interest?

They're also getting an unfair advantage.

And you have to say, they have a point there.

So that's something the Premier League have to go and think about and have a meeting about.

What were Manchester City trying to achieve by bringing this case against the Premier League?

I'm not sure.

We will find out in due course, I suppose.

Does anyone else have anything?

I'm Peneu in Manchester and you have an iPad and a stylus.

So, you know, is it the talk of the town?

Um, no, no, not in my town, anyway.

Um

I think most people are just kind of like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're in court for this and this and this.

And oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just one of those things where, I mean, I've been trying to read in not the big long pages, but like, you know, things that have been online just to try and get my head around it.

And I just can't.

And I've given up now.

It's kind of a win-win for both, but it's also a lose-lose for both.

So

at the end of the day, it's like nobody really has one, and it's just confusing.

So, in those kind of situations, I take a step back and go, Well, I just care about what's happening on the pitch, and I don't need to know about what's happening around it because I am none the wiser and I don't know, and I'm not clued up about it.

So, there's no point trying to worry about it now.

My view is this: that, okay, Manchester City

at the moment seem to be taking on the world, don't they?

Or taking on the rest of the Premier League.

This case,

whatever it was, appears to be an action taken

almost in case of what happens with their

115 charges to sort of get a leverage in early,

as I understand it, and so that when that and point out that the Premier League's rules are not as tight as they might be legally.

And so that should they be in a court case against the Premier League, should that arise,

then that they can pick apart the Premier League, maybe drive a bus through any legal case that the Premier League might have against them, for example.

And

it appears that they think that they've done that.

The Premier League argue that they haven't.

But it's been points out, this has got nothing to do with football.

I think that there's a lot of psychic energy wasted on X.

There's a lot of psychic psychic energy wasted on X and have lots of things, but wasted on this nonsense that has nothing to do with football.

And you've got Manchester City fans claiming that their owners are freedom fighters, fighting for the sanctity of football so that football clubs can be what they want to be because there's this red faction that's taking down the rest of football and stopping everybody.

And it's absolute nonsense.

I actually saw a tweet from an Aston Villa fan saying, I've got such respect for Manchester City fans because they want the same for us as them, which is that we can enjoy success like them because they're like that, Manchester City fans.

Because we know that all

football fans really want everyone else to be successful, don't they?

It sounds like a sounds like a Manchester United fan speaking to me, John.

That's all I can hear.

Yeah, well, I see you see.

There we go.

There we go.

The red cartel bias, you know, and there we go.

We've run away with myself.

I've run away with myself.

I've let the bias roll over over me but i'll tell you what it's got nothing to do with football the deeper in these legal treacle that football gets dragged into one of the funny things is that uh caldu alma barrack who is the manchester city ceo uh you know he said he owns a club runs a club he has said you know what about respecting the league well yeah what about respecting the league what we find in the manchester city case and the fact that newcastle and a couple of other clubs have joined in them is that the Premier League clubs consider themselves rivals, and I don't think that's particularly healthy for the English game or the English Premier League.

It might be time for everybody to get the big boy pants on, stop paying legal fees, and maybe work it all out.

Because, you know, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one that thinks they can sort this out because it is nonsense.

It's got nothing to do with football.

That's the end of it.

I'm sorry.

I think the one thing that has come out of this is what Everton

and subsequently Leicester and now Man City have shown is that the Premier League are kind of winging it and

we really do need a regulation.

Yes, yes.

And the Premier League are doing an incredibly bad job.

Let's say that

if you're of a mind to support Man City, they are doing a really bad job of protecting their reputation because it does seem quite easy to drive a bus through some of the stuff that they're put out there.

So, there you go.

This isn't the big verdict, of course.

Well, the one which pertains to the 115 financial charges were due in January.

Hopefully, there isn't a new rebus out just around then.

I don't know how much notice we should take of legal expert Noel Gallagher.

According to the mail, he's added

his name to the list of city supporters who've signed a change.org petition calling for Richard Masters to step down.

Yes, on change.org, it said it's become clear that Masters is merely a mouthpiece for the red cartel.

He's targeted and continues to target those that will shape the future of English football on behalf of those that are trapped in the past.

Signed, Noel Gallagher, Made a Veil.

The mail say they believe that is Noel Gallagher.

Of course, it may not be Noel Gallagher.

It might just be someone who wrote, My name's Noel Gallagher in the change.org petition.

Let's talk about some actual football.

And Johan Nieskens, what a player he was.

Sadly died at the age of 73.

Part of the generation credited with introducing total football.

Part of the team that reached two consecutive World Cup finals in the 70s, won three European Cups before he was 21 with Ajax.

Peena's the most Dutch person on this panel.

Like, he was such an influential part of that.

Obviously, before any of our time playing.

But I think the interesting thing about Nieskins is he's actually until he died, I hadn't really watched any of him.

Like, it's only in this, like, compared to some other Dutch greats or some other world greats of football.

someone I, perhaps to my shame, didn't know as much about.

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

And I think really for me, it's the same.

I get stories, and you obviously can watch things online nowadays, but I have stories from my dad telling me about him.

And that's kind of how I sort of learnt about this player.

And obviously, you know, unfortunately, because of his passing, he, you know, becomes more sort of into the news and people start, you know, bringing up old footage of him and what he was like as a a player.

And I have to say, like, I didn't know, you know, as much about him as some of the other Dutch greats.

But, you know, again, when you have these players that have really sort of guided the way that we look at football in the modern day and some of the things that they did

when they were playing, as you mentioned, to be so young and to have those accolades already is so impressive.

And, you know, obviously the fact that he's Dutch also is a proud thing for us as

someone that's from Holland, and you know, we've got quite a lot of legendary football players in our past and in our present as well.

So, you know, you know, terribly sad to lose someone like him, but

yeah, it's you know, credit to the Dutch teams as well that we had a player like him.

And like I said, it was all stories that I'd got from my dad, who was very much sort of looking up to players like that when he was younger.

And yeah, so it's nice that he was able to pass that down to us as well.

I was going to say that that 1974 Dutch team and the IX team that came before it just has that cachet, doesn't it?

Of like,

well, they look like the 1970s, don't they?

I mean, they have that sort of flowing hair.

Yeah, the sideburns, Niskin's sideburns are amazing.

They've got a very liberal, laconic style of football.

And Niskins was essentially the lungs of that team, wasn't he?

He was the

it was described to me a few years after that that he was a

Brian Robson of that team.

Obviously, Brian Robson is a player from 30 years ago now, but you know, that's in Barcelona, he's a hero as well, because he went after Cruyff.

And I saw some footage the other day, I think long after Cruyff had, you know, gone to America and gone back to Holland himself

of Naskins.

I think they won the Cup Winners' Cup or the UEFA Cup, and him in the middle of Barcelona just being hailed as an absolute legend there.

And he's one of those figures that

you'd occasionally see him as assistant coach to a few people and just think, oh, that's absolute, that's Johann Naskins, absolute 70s legend.

But yeah, as I say, I mean, there's that book, isn't there, Brilliant Orange by David Winnie, which is absolutely excellent, which really captures that team.

And

he, Naskins, just comes across as

a player that would have been brilliant in any era, like a very modern player of his time and would be fantastic now.

Yeah,

nicknamed the Dutch lung, Johann II, and at Barcelona El Toro,

Guardian writing that he could claim to be the godfather of modern pressing.

And it is worth

having a look at Ajax tweeted out like a little three-minute package of some of his goals and him chatting away.

It's one thing in the 70s, when they scored a goal, the celebration was generally just stand, stay where you were, and just jump up and down like a computer game with your hands in the air.

It was just such a great image of 70s for

they were all tired, though, because they're on those heavy pitches.

You sort of jump up and just like

okay.

Let's jog back.

Let's talk about any ester retired at the age of 40.

Please allow me to be a little emotional today.

He said, I never thought this day would come.

I never imagined it.

Yeah, all these tears we've shed these days are tears of emotion of pride.

They're not tears of sadness.

They're tears of that boy from a small town like Fuenta Bahia.

Hopefully I pronounced that correctly, who had the dream of being a footballer and we achieved it after a lot of hard work, sacrifice, of never giving up essential values in my life.

I feel very proud of this path.

With all the people who have accompanied me, his honours this Barry is ridiculous.

I mean, nine Na Liga titles.

It helps if you play for Barcelona in that time, obviously.

Nine Na Liga titles, four Champions Leagues.

Euro 2008, the winning goal in the 2010 World Cup, player of the tournament when Spain won 2012.

And, you know, just him and Javi and Busquets.

It's just a, you know, it's a perfect triangle, isn't it?

Add, they were amazing.

And reading the tributes to him, his

entire very long career,

uh i won't lie i thought he'd retired about two years ago but there you go finger on the pulse me but um due to you know word counts or whatever his entire career seems to have been boiled down to the quote unforgettable goals he scored against chelsea in the champions league and the netherlands sorry peene uh in the world cup final in 2010 goals that were so unforgettable, I couldn't remember either of them.

I had to go and look them up.

And yeah, the Chelsea goal, Chelsea, they've put out Juventus, they've put out Liverpool, they're 1-0 up against Barrison the semi at home after drawing 0-0 in the first leg.

Barris are down to 10 men after Abidal's been sent off in the 66th minute.

Michael Essie and it put Chelsea up after nine minutes.

They're on course to go through to the final.

Then a cross comes in for the right.

John Terry heads it clear out towards the touchline.

Michael Essian

makes a pig's ear of a clearance, allowing Messi to square the ball across the face of the penalty area for

Iniesta, and he fires into the top corner.

Boom, Chelsea are out.

And then the World Cup final, 116th minute against the Dutch.

Arian Robbins missed two one-on-ones with the Dutch goalkeeper,

Stecklenberg, one of which he was fouled actually by Carlos Poyle.

And I can't remember.

It should have been a free kick or a penalty.

It should have been something.

Yeah, and he has to score as the winner in that game too.

Sort of, the ball stands up nicely for him.

He follies it across the face of goal and into the bottom corner.

As I say, two unforgettable goals that I was unable to remember, but I have a a head like a sieve.

Um, but what a career he had.

And like you say, it's very easy to win all those trophies when you're playing for Barcelona, but to get into that Barcelona team and basically be the heartbeat of it is quite something.

And actually, Prince, you mentioned it, isn't it?

It's interesting.

When you think about him, and you mentioned Ronaldinho as well, you think about these footballers who are kind of standalone players like Ronaldinho.

But when I think of Iniesta, I can't think of him as an individual, right?

I just think of him as in that, like basically, him and Javi, I feel like they should just be, they should set up a business together now.

I don't know, doing whatever, just going around, removals.

But they have to turn up together.

Loft clearances.

And as Baz says, yeah,

why not?

But they're just like that 2011.

When did they take Man United apart?

Was that 2011?

2011, yeah.

And you just, that.

You know, it doesn't mean he's not a great individual footballer, Peene, but I just mean, like, I just think of him in that, just in that midfield being so effortlessly brilliant.

Yeah.

And I think what made him so good is he was able to pick that impossible pass, wasn't he?

Which obviously you need to work as a team to be able to let that put, you know, work out the way that it has.

And I think it was his brain, his footballing brain was just so smart.

You know, he was always thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead, which,

you know, ultimately football was a team sport and he was the ultimate team player in the sense that he fit in so well into that, especially into that Barcelona side that you mentioned.

And I think that's what made him so, so clever.

In he was just able to read the game so well.

He was an absolute pro.

And, you know, you go back to that goal that he scored against the Netherlands.

I was 13 at the time, but I remember watching it.

We were in a group of us, well, my family, all wearing orange in an English pub,

trying to be the loudest ones in there to support the Netherlands.

But still, you're in awe of him and what he did for that, you know, that Spain team and when they won the World Cup and the things that he won with Barcelona as well.

You know, he's one of those players that you just look at and you think that is just brilliant, brilliant football.

And it was interesting actually, I was reading since he announced his retirement, I was reading some of the articles about him and there was a couple of articles that were written a couple of years ago and just about his his upbringing and in life before he went to football, before he started in the youth teams at Barcelona and just the enjoyment that he had of just playing football, you know, on the streets where he could play it.

And that was what he said was his sort of really good grounding: playing together, uh, sort of just out on the streets wherever he could find time and space to play.

He has that sort of era of just pure brilliance around him, and um, and yeah, I think there's a lot of footballers that can learn a lot and have learned a lot from a player like him.

Well, I was lucky enough to be at that World Cup final, which he scored the goal.

You know, you never forget that, do you?

It was just the

release of emotion from the Spanish team

when that goal went in because it was an incredibly tense game, very dirty game, as we all recall.

And the other thing is, I was also at the 2011 Champions League final when him, Messi, and Javi just destroyed Manchester United.

Just that rhythm that they got into of passing.

It's ridiculous, that game, isn't it?

Yeah, that game is just ridiculous.

But the 2009 one, I wasn't at that at Stamford Bridge for that game, but I was in London that evening, and I did happen to catch that goal.

I was in a pub, and he hits it like a sort of golf shot, doesn't he?

Into the top corner.

It's almost like a swing and it goes in.

That night, as I was walking back to catch the train home, there was a load of Barcelona fans who'd just come from Stanford Bridge, all jumping in the fountain at Trafalgar Square to celebrate that.

So, yeah,

a genius player.

My favourite player

of all time is, I've always said Zindian Zidane.

Iniesta's level of skill was only just a little bit below that, I would say.

When you watch him in the flesh, it was just...

And the other thing is, like Zidane, he didn't look like a footballer.

He just had his own unique style.

Enjoy your retirement.

My favourite player of all time now wears a tinfoil hat and sells CBD oil online.

There you go.

Before we end part two, I'd like to draw your attention to a really powerful piece in The Guardian by Eve Dehan.

It's on the website.

We'll link it in the show notes as well.

Spurs fan, she was sexually assaulted on a train after their game against Brentford a couple of weeks ago by a male football fan.

It is a really difficult, but grim,

but important read and a reminder that

so much more needs to be done.

As Eve says in the piece, I want to go see the club I love, support and pay to watch.

My whole body fills with dread when I now think of the journey there and back for the next game.

This is a public call for clubs, British Transport Police, Police, TfL to please do better.

At the very least, invest in campaigns that address this behavior, explore policies that make these spaces safe for women.

We did a special on misogyny in football probably a couple of years ago now.

It was really interesting to hear listeners' stories.

We'll link to that episode as well in the show notes too, but definitely worth reading and we'll be back in a second.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office like maybe a football journalist Barry although not like you

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's talk about Jürgen Klopp briefly.

A few months ago, I said I don't see myself on the sidelines anymore, and that's still the case.

He said on Instagram, he's been appointed global head of soccer at Red Bull.

I still love football, I still love working.

Red Bull gives me the perfect platform for that.

Red Bull says Klopp will not be involved in day-to-day operations.

Will advise on playing philosophy, transfer strategy, and coaching development.

Did we hope, John, that Klopp went and worked for someone nice, like Forrest Green Rovers or Lewis or Dulich Hamlet?

He had this image, right, of being he's one of the good guys, and now he's joined the evil energy drinks empire.

Yeah.

Well, this is one of these things, isn't it, in football where

it's this idea of false idols and the fact that

people don't always do what you want them to do in football.

And in Germany, in particular, Red Bull are considered to be this evil force because they don't follow the 50 plus 1

fan arrangement because they essentially did MK Dons on a club in Leipzig.

But you go to Germany, you will see Jung Klopp just about everywhere because he's in an advert, he's on hoardings.

This is a guy that likes his money.

In Liverpool, I think there's a certain amount of disappointment too.

But at no point has he himself criticised Red Bull.

I did the story for The Guardian yesterday.

The only thing we could find was that he'd actually said that he really likes the organisation.

One of his close friends was Ralph Ranyick, of course, who's really associated with that movement,

the Red Bull organisation.

My disappointment actually is maybe we'll see him as a Germany manager, but I would have liked to see him manage another club.

But as he said, he spent 25 years in the dugout.

It's a long time.

And we saw that it took a lot out of him towards the end of his time at Liverpool.

And he said, I mean, Jonathan Lou wrote about it, and I think it was a very good point, that

he pretty much said, you know, like, I can't walk on water as a manager.

And everyone sort of expected,

okay, in football, in politics and music, and all this everything,

people want this person to reflect all of what they are, of what they want from people, to be this and to work for the right people and do the right things.

Working with Red Bull, I'm not sure, is the worst thing in the world.

It's a fizzy drinks manufacturer.

There are far worse things.

He is working for another company.

He's got a new job.

I would suggest it is possibly a holding job until he becomes Germany manager.

And he's done with being a manager for now.

But it might only be for now.

I mean, look, football is a bit of a cesspit.

And if you dig deep enough into what anyone does, you'll find hypocrisy, myself included.

But I Klopp always portrayed himself as someone who genuinely got

fan culture and what it's all about.

And Red Bull is the very antithesis of that.

So I can see why people are disappointed, and it's easy to call him a bit of a shill.

And some people have been saying, well, working for Fenway Sports Group was no different.

I disagree because,

you know, Fenway Sports Group didn't take a team that was in the

Premier League Northern

National League.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

National League Northern and

you know, rebrand them, cover them in Red Bull logos,

spend a load of money on them and get them promoted.

So, yeah, I'd be slightly disappointed.

I think I wrote an article about it the other day.

It was only, you know, for Football Daily, which is

satire in inverted commas.

So I did go in two-footed, but I

wouldn't stand wholly over what I wrote.

But yeah, I find it slightly disappointing, I have to say.

Garrett Southgate in other manager news says he won't be returning to a coaching role for at least a year.

Presumably, as Joel writes, he'll be on the board at whoever makes dandelion and burdock until then.

I was thinking about the Southgate lookalike the other day.

Just thinking, actually, had quite a good run, didn't he?

I think because they cut to someone in the crowd who looked a bit like him tonight.

Joe says, how about a sidebar on Axel Tuanzebi cutting himself doing the dishes?

And how nice it is to hear about a footballer who does his own dishes.

He needed to have surgery.

He nearly lost a thumb in a freak accident while washing up.

I mean, that can be of a sharp knife in the suds.

Can be an issue, can't he?

I cut the kind of

area between thumb and forefinger, which I'm going to guess is the same place Axel, while vigorously washing a glass the other night.

So I feel his pain.

Are you you okay I'm fine I did nearly lose my thumb but

I don't like who

I know footballers earn a lot of money but you're not going to employ someone specifically to do your washing up are you maybe you would I think you might I don't it's a very good question yeah

or do you just have a housekeeper like you know

who's originally hired as a physiotherapist but ended up being a generous skivvy which I always had a problem with that sure, because of that.

It's a good, it's a good point.

Um, I don't know.

We'll have maybe we'll ask some footballers if they uh you know, if they employ someone specifically for that, you can't just if it's just one, if it's just a plate for some toast, you'd think you could do that.

How sharp a knife is he to eat toast with?

I mean, well, it was a glass, it was a glass that smashed and deep cut in his hand.

He actually holds the world record for the fastest time to finish a game of hungry hippos in 17.36 seconds.

So, you know, this days are gone.

Exactly.

Obviously, all mentions of Darren Bent injuring himself at Charlton making a sandwich

and

Dave Besant injuring himself, dropping a bottle of salad cream on his toe.

We'll finish with this from Harry Moore, Byron Bay News.

He says, Dear Max, hope you don't mind me getting in touch.

I need you to help me settle a debate with my mate, Alex.

I'm adamant that it was you who very kindly gave us a plate of spring rolls at the railway pub in Byron.

Being a football fan, I thought I recognized you and subsequently mentioned it to Alex.

He told me it wasn't, and that he was an avid listener of the Guardian Football Weekly podcast.

If indeed it was you, thank you so much for the spring rolls.

They were delicious.

And I would love it if it's not too much to ask if you could tell Alex on the next Football Weekly podcast that it was you who gave us the spring rolls.

And he is very welcome.

Of course, there is a chance I'm wrong and it wasn't you, in which case, ignore me.

Thanks so much.

Keep up the great work, Harry.

It was just to point out, this is not like a humble brag.

I'd ordered the fettuccine with mushrooms and the chef accidentally made me spring rolls.

So we got them for nothing.

And we didn't really want them.

So I just passed them to the people on the table.

I could have let them go to waste, but I thought I'd pass them on.

So you are indeed right.

And Alex, who is a huge fan of mine, but can't recognize me, when I'm literally handing him a plate of spring rolls

right there in his face.

But thanks for listening anyway.

And that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, John.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Peene.

Please come again.

Thank you for having me on.

Cheers, Baz.

Fettuccine and mushrooms.

Well, it was a kind kind of.

What's wrong with that?

I'd rather spring rolls, if I'm honest.

Well, that's okay.

People are different.

I mean, that's what makes the world a beautiful place.

The highlight of my evening tonight was crab linguine at half-time in the England.

Sounds nice.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, well done.

Don't ask me how much it cost.

Oh, my God.

How much was the crab meat?

Nah.

Oh, come on.

I can't.

Fan of the people.

Tell us.

I saw weeks ago on Celebrity Master Chef.

I saw

Roshenda, who played a baddie on Line of Duty.

She made a crab linguine in the semi-final.

I couldn't stop thinking about it.

It looked so nice.

So I decided I was going to make it.

And

so I went to the only shop in sort of the Clapham-Brixton area that sells crab meat.

And

it was embarrassing.

I feel ashamed how much I spent for a very small amount of crab.

But I got two dinners out of it, and they were both very nice.

Well done, Barry.

Thank you.

That's okay.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.