Manchester United stumble and will City cope without Rodri? - Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

They're confusing us all with European football at the same time as the Carabao Cup, so we'll mash them together and look ahead to the Premier League weekend at the same time.

Manchester United, held by FC20 before their crucial mid-table clash with Spurs, who play tonight against Carabag in the Europa League.

And then to Manchester City, some more rode questions as Pep insists his second team will contest the League Cup until it gets interesting.

They go to Newcastle, who have a tricky run coming up.

Big wins for Arsenal's kids and Liverpool's adults.

They play Leicester and Wolves, respectively.

We'll ponder the dark arts.

Chelsea Brighton looks fun.

Can anyone win when Everton play Palace and the Premier League's dark horses face each other at the city ground as Forrest play Fulham?

There's some more Robert Earnshaw philosophy to mull over.

We'll answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Johnny Lou, welcome.

Hi.

Hello, Barry Glendenning.

Hello.

And welcome, Troy Townsend.

Hi, Max.

Let's start with Manchester United then.

They drew one all with FC20 last night.

Before the game, Eric Ten Hags said he didn't want to play them.

He said, I would have preferred to play against someone else.

It's not nice to hurt something you love.

I mean, they didn't hurt them that much.

I guess a sign, Barry, of where Man United are that, you know, it's not that surprising.

No, it isn't really.

I was a bit surprised.

I kind of expected them to be FC20 at home.

They didn't.

It was not a particularly good performance.

Christian Erickson said after the game that they wanted it more and it looked like they did because they were trying harder.

But even so, Manchester United should still have the quality to beat them and didn't.

I don't think it's a disastrous result by any stretch of the imagination.

I guess ultimately, it probably won't matter.

Although, it is slightly concerning that in their last seven European games across two competitions, United have only won once and lost four.

So, that's not great.

Yeah, it's just typical United, isn't it?

That just

bounce around half-decent performance here, a bad one there, a good one here.

And

there just doesn't seem to be any sort of cohesion or consistency.

And a lot of their players just don't seem that bothered.

Trishkin Erickson responsible for both goals, Troy.

I mean a lovely goal he scored and then dithered with it and conceded it.

But I guess a sign of where they are that he's pretty key player this season.

He seems to be at the moment, doesn't he?

His finish was reminiscent of a lot of his finishes at Spurs, the good old days.

But then, listen, you take into account his divering on the ball, but it was a very good goal from FC20 and thoroughly deserved.

Van Roos gliding through five, six Man United players.

I think it was Harry Maguire that decided to open his legs up at the end,

lost the ball, and then Lamas got onto it, and it's a cracking finish.

And I thought at that point, they could have gone on and maybe got a second as well before the manager kind of changed the shape of the side to probably protect what they had.

Although I think if they had really gone for it, they probably could have sneaked the game.

But cracking save from the keeper right near the end as well, who made a couple of good saves,

as did Inanna.

And I just thought

it was a very good performance from 20.

And I think Barry summed it up with the typical kind of performance that we've been getting from 10 Hags Man United.

And I don't know, the times they look all over the place.

At times, they look a very good side.

At times, they look a side that doesn't seem interested in football.

And, you know, I just think how long can this continue for this United team?

How long can it continue, Johnny?

Good question.

Indefinitely, I would say.

This is the, it's almost the default state of United now, right?

That I mean, they've very neatly summed up the last 11 years of Manchester United in a single 90-minute performance.

I mean, in terms of this competition, I don't think it does them a huge amount of damage because of the way the format goes.

They have eight games, and I think the fourth, fifth, sixth games, which which look like they're going to be the pivotal must win ones that they're actually probably their easiest fixtures I think they go to Porto next

and then Fenabace so in terms of this competition I don't think it's too terminal and I think in terms of

where they are early in the season sort of almost trying to you know trying to rebuild a side you know you have players coming in I thought Ugate

he looks pretty good but he he's going to need some integration Xerxe is working hard and but he he's it's gonna need a little bit of time for him to click you know you have new players coming in you know you have Mason Mountain who obviously is trying to still trying to integrate into this side after after being injured for so long so I think you know this is the one thing that nobody wants to do but you you do kind of still need to give United time because they have had such so much upheaval in the summer and they had looked fairly bright at times but there is there is going to be a huge amount of frustration and a lot of performances like this one the FC20 fans were great and they loved getting a draw you know singing with their players you know who are just on the pitch for ages after the game.

As you said, next game for them is Porto away, who lost to Bodo Glimpt.

They'll be dancing in the streets of Lars Civitson.

Well, I love Bodo Glimpt.

I looked at it, I'd never really looked at where it was.

It's basically in the North Pole.

And they were brilliant in this game.

I watched the highlights against Porto.

And, you know, they were one down, turned it around before half-time, had a man sent off before Jens Hauger put them 3-1 up at his second.

And then Man United played Jose Emerino's Fenabace at home, which might be fun.

Next for them is

11th v10th, Barry.

Huge game, Man United v Spurs.

A huge crisis sword of Damocles hangs over Old Trafford.

But which way is it swinging, Cammy?

Barry, what do you reckon?

It's a big game because

it's two managers who are

under pressure.

I mean, Spurs, we're recording on a Thursday morning.

Spurs have a game tonight against Carabag, which doesn't help either with the whole European football, Carabao, Carabag in midweek.

It really doesn't.

Just to throw in some added confusion.

I don't know which way this will go.

I haven't a clue is the God's honest answer.

If Manchester United play as well as we know they can, they could batter Spurs, but they don't play that well very often.

Like, very rarely do they play that well.

And you could say the same for Spurs.

It's whoever turns up on the day.

I would quite like to see both teams play really well, just so we

get a good game and and we get a reasonable idea of where each club is but I suspect um that won't happen uh before their game against Carabaga doing the pre-match presser um Ange Postacoglu and Youngman's son now you have to bear in mind they are being asked about these things but they they were both uh getting an early moan in about fixture congestion and player welfare and I'm just looking at them wondering wondering, are you in any way related to the Ange Postakoglu and Youngman's son who play for the Spurs team that more or less left Brammell Lane at the end of last season after their last game, went straight to the airport and flew to Australia for a friendly against Newcastle?

You know, come on, lads, you can't have it both ways.

Yeah, obviously the Carabad game, it's very unlikely unless something extraordinary happens, like a meteor hits the pitch or Ange plays a low block that we'll mention it on Monday.

But

I'm interested in Troy and Johnny's thoughts on how Tottenham are faring at the moment.

Troy, we'll start with you.

I think, again, they're a typical Spurs opening, you know, great in some aspects.

I thought they did well to pull the game around after another 20-second goal, 22nd-minute goal from

20 seconds second.

22 second second, sorry, yeah, goal from Brentford.

And they did well to turn it round and they performed well and they looked quite exciting, Spurs, but very similar to Manchester United.

You never know what

Tottenham are going to turn up.

You know,

they had a few injuries.

The injuries are clear now.

And Spurs should be looking at, you know, trying to get a result at Old Trafford, an old Trafford that's not a one that we've seen for a very long time.

The state of what's going on at Manchester United should give Spurs hope.

And if Ange sets his team up well,

I believe they should go and get a result.

But you look at the Newcastle game where they dominated and had a number of efforts on target and eventually losing that one, which would have infuriated Postacoglu.

This is just one, I'm not sure you can call it, but I've agreed again with Barry.

I'd like to see a good game.

I'd like to see two open teams.

And I'd like to see someone take the ball by the horns and decide that they want to go and win the game and win it well.

And I'm going for an away win in this one.

I think Spurs can actually do a lot of damage.

Just because of

the speed and the mobility of that front three, I think they can pull United around and cause them a lot of problems.

There's been this huge focus on set pieces, but actually, it's obscured the fact that this Spurs defence does always seem to have some weird brain fade in it when they're playing that high line.

And you generally get one or two of them a game, at least.

And it's a case of whether they can stay disciplined enough and stay error-free enough at Old Trafford to,

and I think they will create chances, but to actually to profit from the chances they're going to get.

Because I think, you know,

it's quite clear to see, you know, this direction of travel.

There's been a bit of doom and gloom, but there is an identifiable style of play there.

He wants them to play High Line.

He wants them to play quick, you know, one-touch football.

Madison is obviously one of those players that has a great autumn and then just kind of fades after New Year.

But, you know, they need to profit from that as soon as

they can.

And, you know, if they can just cut out the errors, I think they can have a pretty decent season.

You're sounding more pro-ANG now when they're not doing well than you were when they were doing well.

I'm a Spurs contrarian.

I don't know.

When everyone was fating Ange, I was like, well,

this has gone a little bit too far.

And now everyone I think is sticking the boot into him.

And I think that's gone a little bit too far.

He's the same guy.

He's the same manager with the same principles.

I do think people are putting a little bit too much store in the whole Ange second season thing.

It doesn't always work out like that.

Spurs fans like doing this.

Remember in 2001 when everyone was like, well, it'll be fine.

They'll win a trophy this year because of the year of the one.

And, you know, Mourinho will definitely win a trophy because he wins a trophy everywhere.

And it turns out that this isn't an actual, a reliable way of predicting things happening in football.

No.

Rangers play Malmo tonight as well in the Europa League.

The only other note is Troy Parrott scoring another goal for AZ Alkmar.

He could be the hero for Ireland with all these goals he's banging in at the moment.

So to the Carabao Cup, fourth round draw was made last night.

Brentford plays Shefford Wednesday, Southampton Stokes, Spurs, Man City.

AFC Wimbledon or Newcastle against Chelsea, Man United, Leicester, Brighton, Liverpool, Preston Arsenal and Aston Villa Palace.

Let's talk about Manchester City who beat Watford on Tuesday night.

They go to Newcastle, the early kickoff

on Saturday in the Premier League.

Documenuno scored the goals.

Tom Ins scored a lovely goal for Watford, which made the last five minutes quite interesting.

And 16-year-old Caden Braithwaite made his debut.

American Boy by Estelle, featuring Kanye West, was number one when he was born, the 25th of March 2008, which is only just before the Soccer AM Glory years began.

After this game, Barry, and again, talking about fixture congestion, Pep says, look, the next round I announce you, I play the second team.

We're not going to waste energy for sure.

The schedule's a schedule.

We cannot handle it anyway.

I mean, he makes a point.

He's got a big squad.

He might as well do that.

Yeah, why not?

I would imagine you could...

A Man City Reserve team would be more than good enough to win the Caribou Cup.

The only thing is, it's a competition Pep usually takes very seriously.

So, yeah, why not?

I don't really have a problem with managers putting out reserve sides for this competition

because you have to let players who aren't sort of getting regular game time in the Premier League feel included.

But

I think teams further down the table, like teams that are going to finish in the middle third, should make more of an effort to try and win it.

And what I do find odd is that when,

say, the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool last night put out

reservish sides,

they still put first-team staples on the bench.

So, say, for example, last night on the Arsenal bench, you'd Salaba, Gabrielle, Thomas Party, Gabriel Martinelli, Kai Havertz.

Liverpool had Virgin Van Dyke, Andrew Robertson, Trent Alexander Arnold, Louis Diaz, Dominic Sabozlai, Mo Sala, and Alexis McAllister on the bench.

Why not just give them the night off?

You know,

it's like if you work in an office and your boss makes you come in, and then, right, you don't have to do any work, but you have to sit at your desk for the day and go home.

You know, just give the guys the night off.

Yeah, or at least some of them.

Don't make them go to the ground or travel to the game.

you know, just you're either off or you're not.

If you're bringing them to the game, you might as well throw them in the team.

Johnny, before we get on to Roderick, Johnny, you wrote about the calendar and the threat of strike action and how unlikely it probably is.

Yeah, I mean, it's not going to happen, really.

Footballers are not the most

collegiate of professions.

You know, it's a case of what do we want?

We,

who is this we you speak of?

I do obviously sympathize with

players who are playing too much.

They are being exploited just as much as players further down the pyramid are.

I think the issue is in these very disparate groups, the very disparate people with disparate life experiences recognizing that their problems are part of a shared issue, which is the way that the game is financially run.

And

the imperatives, the financial imperatives for the game are always going to lead it towards

more consumption, more content,

more

packing of fixtures in the calendar.

And that is not going to change unless

players actually show a little bit of solidarity.

I mean, I think 50 Champions League players going on strike,

first of all, I don't think it's feasible.

I don't see how you organise that.

I don't see how

that practically comes together.

But I also don't think you garner a huge amount of sympathy.

Players who are earning sort of 50 grand a year further down

the profession, I think, well, we actually don't mind the amount that we're playing.

We're probably on a very insecure 12-month contract or even a pay-as-you-play contract.

We would like to play a little bit more.

So,

until football is recognised that there's a kind of shared uh interest there uh i don't think this

industrial dispute is going to get uh get very far let's talk about rodri then um we touched on it on tuesday uh pep since has said look he's irreplaceable but i will find a solution that is an alternative we will do it i mean is he so crucial troy that city have to change how they play or do they just get the best person to fit that spot be it kovacic or rico lewis or matthias nunes or jon stones yeah i think they get the best player to suit that and i think it will be a number of, so the players that you've named there will obviously be on a kind of rotation for the period of time.

Maybe a John Stones,

likely as they can be quite settled at the back, and maybe him coming in to provide some experience and some know-how in that position.

But I think Pep will do a rotation in there and see what happens or what comes of it in January.

Listen, it's a massive loss.

We all know the stats of when he plays and when he doesn't play, and it's definitely going to give hope to those around particularly arsenal but again city have been here before when established players have been out for a period of time kevin de bruyners and stuff like that um so i think they'll handle it well but it will be those big games won't it it will be the games against liverpool's coming up manchester united's you know it will be those games that will probably we'll see kind of where pep is going to go and i think he'll go with the established in those games just on if you don't mind max just on the point of the scheduling as well listen what they're doing is they're forcing managers, players to decide what are the best games to play in.

I think that's the way it's going to be now.

I agree with Jonathan.

I don't think there'll be a players' strike, but actually you're pushing the players to that tone because, you know, World Cup football next summer, World Cup football the summer after that,

you're squeezing every last bit of energy.

And the people that will suffer will be the fans as well.

There's not much being said about the fans here, and they will suffer because they won't be watching their teams at full strength in a lot of the games.

You're pushing the Carabao Cup out the window and making clubs make a big decision on whether they want to participate in that competition as well.

So

it's having an impact on the whole game, and I think it will come to a head when it does come to a head.

I'm not sure.

But the collective of the players, you know, they're all talking in silos.

Maybe they need to get together and just have one big, massive conversation with the governing body of football.

That's a lot of players, isn't it?

All the players on on a Zoom call.

Well, the players that are speaking out.

Listen, we've had players on Zoom calls during lockdown.

We've had captains on Zoom calls during lockdown.

So maybe it's a point of, you know, something like that that would at least,

you know, make them, make the authorities aware of what is going on and the impact that is having.

Yeah.

I mean, I still think that point that Barry made, which I think Simon Jordan made,

like Barry, don't agree with a huge amount he says, but there aren't actually that many footballers playing 70 games, are they?

Most are playing 30, 35, 35, like most footballers, or 46 if you play every game in the lower leagues.

You might go on a little bit of a cup run, but actually there aren't that many who are playing 50, 60, 70.

For those,

it is obviously difficult if you are Rodri and you're fit, for example.

On Roderick, what are your thoughts, Johnny?

Well, it's like that scene in Moneyball, right?

Where they go, you know,

we can't replace Matt Giombi.

We can't replace Rodri, but what we can do is recreate him in the abstract.

And so, yeah, there'll be a a bit of Stones, there'll be a bit of Lewis, there'll be a bit of Matteo Nunes.

I mean, the interesting thing is,

it's not actually a huge squad, certainly not compared to some of City's rivals.

Like, Guardiola has always liked working with a small squad.

So, I think what they'll do is

they will continue to play the same way.

And I think they will, instead of having Rodri as the linchpin in there,

certain players may fulfill that role, but it will become a lot more fluid.

You know, you will have players almost kind of dipping in and out of that role as games go on.

I think, you know, you trust him to find a solution, I think.

They go to St.

James's Park, Baz, and you mentioned, I think, quite accurately, that that defeat at Fulham had been coming.

This is obviously a difficult game.

They then do go to Everton, which is presumably winnable.

Then Brighton, Chelsea, Arsenal coming up.

It's not an easy October for Eddie Howe.

No.

I mean, I think the only thing in Newcastle's favour with this visitor city is the fact that they're at home home because they are not playing well.

The body language of their players, some of their players is poor,

this ferocious pressing with which we associated Eddie Howe's Newcastle doesn't seem to be there anymore.

And Eddie Howe is more or less Pep Guardiola's bunny, isn't he?

Pep talks a lot about what a great manager Eddie Howe is, which is never a good sign.

And Bournemouth under Eddie Howe used to habitually get absolutely slaughtered by Man City.

And against Man City as Newcastle manager, I think Howe's played a 1-1, drawn one, and lost six.

They played four times last season.

Newcastle knocked City out of the League Cup,

and then lost the other three games.

I think City will probably win this game,

and I think they could win it by a lot, very emphatically.

But we we shall see.

Newcastle are at home, that at least is in their favour.

They play AFC Wimbledon next week in the rescheduled uh Carabao Cup game um and have donated fifteen thousand pounds to the fundraiser for Wimbledon's pitch.

Uh more than a hundred thousand litres of water has been pumped out of AFC Wimbledon's flooded Plough Lane home after the entire stadium was left under water, says the club's managing director.

It is difficult to quantify how much a hundred thousand litres is, but there are two and a half million liters in an Olympic swimming pool, which makes 100,000 litres sound like a tiny little puddle, doesn't it?

But

what are you complaining about?

Get on with the game.

No, look, I think they've raised a lot of money from that fundraiser, so that is a good thing.

And we'll find out how they get on at St.

James's Park next week.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll carry on our Premier League preview.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

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Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office, like maybe a football journalist, Barry.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day, Scratchers, from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's talk about Arsenal.

They play Leicester.

They beat Bolton 5-1

last night.

They started a 16-year-old goalkeeper, Jack Porter.

Of course, you want to know that Dizzy Rascal and Calvin Harris dance with me

was number one on his birthday, 15th of July 2008.

A bit of rotation at the back.

I mean, they did play Saka, Jesus, and Sterling.

Sterling was brilliant.

Two for Ethan Wanyeri,

who looked really good in the North London Derby when he came on a little cameo.

He looks like some player, Troy, this guy.

Yeah, he does.

And obviously they've been talking about this young lad for quite a long time.

But, you know, what was refreshing for me, Arsenal talk about their academy a lot.

And it was really good to see

those young talents from Hey Len get a real opportunity by starting the game.

And I think

Mikel Artecha has changed his kind of thought process again, obviously, through the demands of the games that are being played.

And I think he's done really well the start of this season, the way that he's planned his season so far.

You know, three very big away games, you know, at Villa at Spurs and at City on Sunday.

And this was the right time to blood those young players and prove that what is going on down at Hayland is the real deal.

And like you said, dotting around with, you know, your Declan Rice's and your jesus had to play sterling had to play it was important that those players got minutes but the real stars of the show were the young players and i think he'll continue to do that in the competition it will then mean that there's a lot of fresh blood for to take on the next two home games which are or the next couple few games which are very winnable for arsenal and i think it sets them up really well going into the christmas period so I think he's learned from a couple of mistakes that maybe he has made in selections previously, but

Arsenal were in with a shout this season for quite a number of the competitions and yeah it was a very good night for them the young players some of the families that I know as well would have been so excited as at what they were watching yesterday they play Leicester who got past Walsall after a goalless draw and winning 3-0 on penalties BBC Sport reported it Danny Ward was Leicester's hero as they beat League 2 Walsall on penalties they march on to the next round of the Carabao Cup without getting two football cliches here Barry march does not seem like the right verb for a goalless draw at Walsall does it?

No, I think more of a stumble on.

And apparently, Leicester's travelling fans were not shy in voicing their disquiet about Steve Cooper.

And he sort of addressed the comments or the chants after the game and sort of went, Well, you know, they're entitled to their opinion, etc.

And I have to accept it.

I don't know.

Is it a little too early to

be?

I don't think they were calling for his head, but they were just.

I get the impression they, after last season's free-flowing football, which as I recall, some Leicester fans weren't entirely happy with under Mareska.

They now think

Steve Cooper's a little bit too cautious.

So I don't know.

I did not see this game, so I do not know if they parked a bus against Wolves.

How dare you not watch Wolsell Leicester with all the football this week, yes, Troy?

I'm just going to say that I think that obviously they play Arsenal this week, but they're at Bournemouth at home the following week.

And I actually think it's a must-win game for him this early in the start of the season.

If you're going to make a change,

which is under pressure, the fans' voices are...

are being listened to.

I think the Bournemouth game, if you do not collect three points in there, I think he's under massive, massive pressure.

I feel like Steve Cooper is just, whatever job he's in, he's just about to get the sat.

Whatever's happening, whether top of the league or bottom of the league or it's the close season steve cooper is just perennially under pressure um mikel arteta was asked about the dark arts johnny after the city game and in the uh i presume in the press conference before the carabao cup game and he just said we had to play the game that we had to play the first 15 minutes we couldn't uh city played 30 seconds with 10 men look what they did it's normal what they did um you know we better learn from playing with 10 men they played with 10 men i think against city a couple of times and lost heavily We better learn.

If not, I would be very thick.

I mean, why is anyone obsessed with the dark arts after this game?

Like,

it's always been here.

Like, it's always been a thing.

It's changed a bit because football's changed a bit.

But

when would the dark arts not in football?

One of the thing about the dark arts, if you go through back through culture, through literature, and

you don't talk about them.

They're a secret, right?

And yet, for the last week, I've had nothing but people talking about the dark arts.

I think one of the things, one of the reasons that this has become such a thing, I think is because

it's almost celebrated these days.

I think, and especially Arsenal fans who are very kind of vocal online, and they're very online.

They're a very online fan base.

And they are.

They celebrate the kind of the shithousery.

We call it shithousery now, right?

And it's become one of those things that has almost come full circle.

And now,

particularly in the women's game, you know, shithows we is really applauded in the women's game as a sign of the maturity of the sport.

When a game is so as inconclusive as the city Arsenal game was, I think it's only natural that the narrative turns to, well, was this fair?

You know, it turns to incidents, doesn't it?

Because we don't, you know, is the title race.

You know, nobody knows where that is.

Where are Arsenal and City, you know, relative to each other, nobody really knows.

But we could talk about putting 10 men behind the ball and having a moral.

Everyone can have an opinion on that, apart from me, because

I don't have the slightest.

You do what you need to do to win a football game, right?

And this has always been not just in the game.

Yes, it's always been in the game, but it's always been in Arteta's locker as well.

His first couple of seasons, he was very, very capable of putting 10 men behind the ball and shithousing his way to NFA Cup, for example.

So does that mean, you know, in the 70s and 80s, Barry, when, you know, refs didn't have, there weren't cameras everywhere and players were just punching people in the face.

Is that just the arts?

I mean, that's that not the dark arts, that's just the arts.

I mean, just like it's just the same but different, right?

Yeah, well, I think the problem, well, it's not a problem, but the issue with Arsenal, I think it goes back to the Wenger days when he used to habitually complain about teams, you know, actually competing against his players.

You know, how dare you tackle my players?

And then, obviously, Bolton used to give them quite a lot of problems, and

Wenger was very snobby about, you you know oh Sam Allard dies how dare he

whatever you know time wasting and feigning injury and whatnot so now that Arsenal were reduced to doing that against city at the weekend and I've no problem with them doing it it would be quite boring if they did it every game they played but needs must and all that and I think people are going you know sort of oh well here's this club who've always considered the dark arts beneath them and and now look at them and but it's you know look manchester city various players came out and moaned and grumbled about arsenal and time wasting in the dark arts a week previously the same man city were time wasted against brentford you know at home so you know let's not go mad these these people have very short memories when was the last successful team troy who just didn't do you know who was it like there isn't there just isn't one right all i know that we've had many many years of jose mourinho in english football um and if anyone was able to time waste was able to tell someone to to go down and stay down and fake that injury if anyone was to to put apply pressure onto the officials etc it was jose mourinho i have no problem with what happened on sunday for either team and you know as said to to go down to 10 men against manchester city and to think that you can gunsing against them is absolutely no chance.

So to do what Arsenal did, it wasn't pretty.

The second half wasn't great.

It wasn't pretty.

But Arteta, like I've said, I think he's set up his team really well so far.

They had to do what they had to do to get a result.

And it was nearly three points, wasn't it?

Yeah, the interesting thing, Johnny, is obviously there are laws to stop all the things, right?

So there's laws to stop time wasting.

There's laws to stop, you know, you know, to sort of help with when people are failing injury temperature pitch.

But we see, like, as soon as they try and clamp down or something, kicking the ball away is part of the dark arts, I guess.

I mean, it's not very secret, but like, as soon as you try and clamp down on that, or you try and give like the right amount of injury time, we all lose our minds for that.

13 minutes.

Like, so, so, like,

it just is, right?

That is just, as far as I can tell, it just is.

There is a sliding scale here, right?

I mean, I think kicking the ball away is a pretty, pretty brainless form of, you know, or what Bolton and Stoke used to do to Aaron Ramsey, right?

That's a pretty, I wouldn't call that dark arts.

That's just, you know, that should violence.

But, you know,

players are, footballers are like infinitely ingenious.

I don't know who was the first player to get tripped up and fall over the wall and grab the ball, just to like sneakily grab the ball as they were falling.

But whoever did that, that became, you know,

suddenly everyone was doing it.

Or, you know, or holding the ball in the corner or

passing the ball.

like when a free kick's given you pass the ball back to the opposite team but you kind of throw it over their head a little bit so they have to catch it and put it down you know that there is there is a you can't you can never stamp out this stuff because football the the glory of football is that it is a game as rich and as nuanced as as life itself and if you you you legislate the more you try and legislate it the more you know players will find a way to to circumvent what about goalkeepers what about goalkeepers who you know some goalkeepers waste time in the first 10 minutes but they never seem to be booked until 80 plus or in in stoppage time so it's it's just been happening for a long, long time.

And I don't think we're ever going to clamp down on it.

There are these new rules that are put in place, but players always find a way around them, that's for sure.

Chelsea beat Barrow 5-0.

Their last meeting was in 1948 in the FA Cup, also a 5-0 win for the Blues.

So this result keeps their 76-year unbeaten run against Barrow going.

In the Hardy Souls count, 2,600 Barrow fans went to London, so good for them.

Cuckoo got a hat trick, Pedro Netto, Jal Felix with the goals, none of whom might start home to Brighton.

And actually,

Chelsea Brighton looks really interesting, Barry.

And it's quite amazing how quickly Chelsea have gone from hilarious shit show to good with incredible depth.

Well, I think they can be both.

Enza Mareska did make the point when we were all laughing at the hilarious shit show

that, look, I've got my squad of players.

And these are the guys I'm working with.

And the rest of them can all bugger off.

I don't want to see them.

They can train somewhere else or, you know, come in at a different time or whatever.

So

there's no denying he has a good squad, but he always had a good squad.

And once he whittled it down to the players he wants,

it's not a huge surprise they're good.

But they've won three in a row now without conceding.

Nicholas Jackson's in form.

Christopher Nkunku is in form despite having only started one game in the Premier League.

Brighton are unbeaten in five under Fabian Hurstler, who will not be in the dugout this weekend, I think, because he was suspended.

And Danny Welbeck is in form and has a good record against Chelsea.

He scored three in his last four games against Chelsea.

So

this could be one of the games of the weekend.

I don't think any of the three possible outcomes wouldn't particularly surprise me.

The thing about Chelsea, and

it's almost an act of misdirection.

It's almost an act of

It's almost a sleight of hand, really.

Everyone has looked at this chaos, signing 35 attacking players or whatever it is, and all the dizzying combinations.

But if you look at the back six, and back seven, actually, if you include Robert Sanchez, it's actually been, this season has been really consistent.

You have, you know, Kukarela, I think, and Colwill and Dazazzi on the right, and

Fafana, right?

And then you have, and that, that

base has been pretty much consistent throughout, you know, through preseason as well.

And it's been their kind of first choice

back line all through the season.

So while all this kind of

chaos and magic and rotation is going on at the other end of the pitch,

Chelsea have actually started keeping clean sheets again.

And that's why, you know, I think

it's quite an interesting game because Brighton obviously

have started, you know, they started the season pretty well,

but they also have the players that

could move a defence around.

So

it feels like one of the, you know, you look at it and go, okay, that's going to be a 4-3, but I'm not sure it will.

I think it actually has has the makings of quite a low-scoring game.

Quite a, what John Bruhm would call a tense tactical battle.

Chess match.

Yes, a chess match.

Chess match.

Liverpool, the holders, in case you'd forgotten, beat West Ham 5-1.

West Ham had one ruled out, then took the lead.

A fun Goldmouth Scramalone goal from Jerald Quantza.

Had a couple of chances at 2-1 down.

Then Alvarez was sent off.

Liverpool scored three more.

Jotter got two.

Gakpo got two.

They go to Wolves, Troy,

who are now without Yesa Moscara for the whole season.

Obviously, Obviously, they've sold Max Kilman.

How long will I be saying they'll be fine about Wolves before I have to change and say I think they're in trouble?

It's a very difficult start for Gary O'Neill's side.

And obviously, they didn't finish the season very well last season.

So I think it's like one win in 16, something like that.

Someone might be able to correct me there.

But it is worrying for Wolves because everyone wants to get off to a half-decent start.

And already being bottom of the table with, you know, obviously obviously with Everton and Southampton is not a good start and

next couple of games Liverpool will be very keen to and it's a later kickoff isn't it Liverpool very keen to to continue to apply pressure to the top of the table after that it's away at Brentford I think Gary Arnill is safe.

I don't think that there's an issue in the same way that we have with Steve Cooper or Leicester have with Steve Cooper.

But I do think points have to be picked up sooner rather than later because again, at the moment, you know, the runs that some of these managers are on that the pressure applies and then you can't get what you need out of your team the team stops trusting you

but I like Gary O'Neill and I think he's done a relatively good job at Wolves so I hope that they do pick up points somewhere along the line

what I would say about wolves is that if you if you look at their underlying numbers they're actually not bad they've you know the XG conceded and the XG and the XG scored that they should be it looks like they're having a disastrous season but actually

in terms of their underlying numbers, they're sort of lower mid-table.

And

I'm pretty sure that that's the kind of thing that Gary O'Neill will be in front of a TV screen or

in front of a microphone

saying to the press pretty soon.

Do you see the numbers that I see, Jonathan?

I see minus

minus nine, no wins.

I love all the XG stats, but let's get back to reality.

No wins means a lack of confidence as well as a certain stage.

And no XG can help confidence.

You know, they've got to pick up points from somewhere.

They've got to get some confidence, not just on the pitch, but in the stadium, in the fans.

And that's the pressure that keeps being applied

to these clubs that are struggling at the moment.

Come back to reality, Johnny.

Well, I mean, you've got to back yourself over the long term.

You back yourself to be better than Ipswich.

You back yourself to be better than Southampton, better than Leicester, better than Everton.

I think, you know, this,

what is it, five games?

Yeah.

Obviously, I understand the power of narrative and I understand the power of basically feelings

amongst a fan base.

But I think if you give them another five games, they're not going to be there.

Sorry, Max.

What has happened?

Mascara, has he done his knee?

And serious knee injury.

He was caught by Morgan Rogers, I think.

I can't remember the challenge, so I don't know how bad it was, but yeah, during that defeat to Villa.

West Ham, who lost that game to Liverpool, they go to Brentford, Ian says, with Brentford scoring goals inside the first 30 seconds in their last two games, what odds West Ham giving up a clean sheet within 10 seconds this weekend?

It's a big game, is for Lopotegui Baz, isn't it?

Yes, and

it's hard to see where a win from West Ham will come from at the moment because they were so bad against Chelsea.

A lot of work needs to be done, and it clearly wasn't just a one-off bad day at the office.

There was unrest at the London Stadium in the wake of that game.

Fans weren't happy.

West Ham fans are regularly unhappy.

West Ham's record against Brentford is quite good, if that counts for anything.

I think they've won their last three.

But Brentford, I think, haven't been getting the results their performances deserve.

West Ham very much have been getting the results their performances deserve.

I can't see anything other than a Brentford win here, but who knows?

In the Andros Townsend Derby, Troy, Winless Everton played Windless Palace.

Who will be winless come five o'clock on Saturday or whenever it is?

I'm going for a draw in this one.

Okay, both.

No, yeah.

Look, it's Everton have had a crazy start to the season, but I always think that, so what we said about wolves just now, I always think that Everton will be all right.

Sean Daesh, once he picks up a result somewhere, they then go on this little run that takes them up the table and everyone starts thinking, oh, they'll be all right.

And then they have another run which takes them back down the table.

With the uncertainty of the ownership becoming a little bit clearer, I think things will become better for Everton.

Palace, I've been disappointed with because, again, they're one of those teams that look like they can hurt you at any moment and then resign themselves to defeat out of nowhere.

They've got a lot of quality in that side, a lot of talent in that side, and they should be.

I think they should be doing better than where they are.

Listen, Everton haven't won at home yet.

Palace

haven't won away, as we know.

I'll go for an Everton win, to be honest, because I just think that momentum might just swing more to them.

How exciting to change your mind.

I know, I've changed it.

You can talk yourself.

Come back to reality, Troy, for goodness sake.

On the subject of the Andros Townsend Derby,

can we ask,

has Andros been registered out in Turkey yet, or is he still in limbo?

He's been registered, yeah.

He's out there, he's got a kit on and everything, Barry.

He's played two games,

no defeats at the moment, and he has Jose Mourinho's Mourinho's Fernobacci this weekend.

How come you haven't been out?

Have you been out to watch?

I haven't been out yet.

I will be going soon.

We will be going soon.

He's just settling down.

We weren't sure whether he was going to be obviously starting, but he started straight away, played 60 odd minutes in the first one, and

80 plus minutes on Sunday.

All right.

So you would only go if he's starting.

You don't.

If he's on the bench, you can't be out.

Well, look, I've got to go for a little holiday.

I've heard it's a beautiful place.

Antalya's a beautiful place.

So when I have a little bit of a clearer diary then I'll go and get my feet out sorry for filling your diary

three others Forest Fulham is interesting Johnny isn't it in there both two sides that I think most people weren't that bothered about when the season started but both have been quite impressive Forrest especially yeah Forest have been really impressive.

I think Fulham looked really good against Newcastle the other week.

They've, you know, Emile Smith Rowe has been, they've basically they've packed their squads with ex-Arsenal players with a with a point to prove.

And I think Fulham has

always been one of those clubs where it's almost like a second chance club.

You know, Andres Pereira, for example, has done really well there.

Forest, yeah, I think they've surprised a few people.

Again, it's one of those examples of a club that out of chaos, out of apparent chaos, has, I don't know whether it's accidentally or kind of under the radar, has actually hit upon quite a sound formula.

You know, it is quite a consistent lineup.

No,

I think I'll go go for Nottingham Forest there.

Ibberswich plays Villa, and Bournemouth plays Southampton as well.

Villa beat Wickham in the Carabao Cup.

Good to see Emil Buendir back on the pitch and scoring as well.

And that'll do for part two.

We'll do any other business in part three.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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A proper football journalist, man.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game Day Scratches from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question: Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Rafael Varan has announced his retirement from football after a knee injury.

He had joined Serie Outside Como as a free agent from Manchester United in the summer.

He played just 20 minutes for the club in a cup game before being subbed off.

He says, I'll remain with Como just without using my boots and shin pads.

For now, to the supporters of every club I played for, to my teammates, coaches, and staff from the bottom of my heart, thank you for making the journey more special than my wildest dreams could ever foresee.

A great career.

I mean, at Real Madrid, four Champions League, three league titles on the World Cup in 2018.

In an interview with Lekeep, he said that concussions suffered in various games throughout his career had damaged his body.

He suggested to avoid teaching children heading, called for wider awareness among players around the dangers of repeated head trauma to brain health.

Also revealed how symptoms of concussions had a negative impact on some of his performances, including the quarter-final match against Germany in the 2014 World Cup, second leg of the round of 16 match against man city in the champions league in 2020 as well producer joel writes i admire that he went to como uh feels like he could have taken a plumb move in saudi arabia i mean como is nice it's not you know it's not bulldock town with all due respect to bulldock town but you know a brilliant career barry i'll be honest max it is a brilliant career I didn't get to see much of the brilliance because I only caught the Manchester United years on a regular basis and he didn't play very often for them.

I'm interested in what he had to say about concussion there because I wasn't aware he had those problems.

And as far as I know, kids aren't allowed head footballs anymore or at the moment because a friend of mine coaches his son's under 10 team and they don't head the ball.

I'm not sure when they do start heading it, but they certainly don't at the moment.

He's a very handsome man, is Raphael Varan.

I remember his unveiling at Old Trafford.

I just remember thinking, wow, he is smokingly handsome.

So, yeah,

hopefully, one of our other guests has more to offer

on Varan's legacy than I have.

Yeah, I mean,

a phenomenon, I think.

Like,

he came in.

I remember him coming into that Jose Marino, like the Jose Mourinho side.

Basically, he was, it was him, and it was Ramos and Pepe,

and he came into that side, and he was, you know, he would have been like, what, 21, 22?

And

just the composure, the the game intelligence the way he was able to to read the game but also to do all of the what we call the the dark art you know the the grubby work of defending uh like an absolute

it's gonna sound like a cliche he was like a what they call a rolls royce of a defender he's a rolls royce of a defender and i think it's quite interesting in in that he's he's what 31 or something he's what 30 31 yeah and so clearly when when united bought him

he was in career terms probably about 35, 36, in terms of what we think of as the regular span of a career.

And I think

it's really quite revealing in the way that, obviously, what he talks about in terms of concussion and what we've been talking about in terms of player workload,

that

he felt that he had nothing left to give at this age,

the injuries

and I guess the inconsistency over the last couple of years.

And United saw fit to pay this guy, was it 300, 300 grand a a week or whatever it was,

for what turned out to be the tail end of his career, which I think tells you a bit about United's decision-making process around that time as well.

Bit more philosophy from Robert Earnshaw, who is a rich sieve of joy

on social media, as well as being a very good man.

He said on Tuesday, he says, Tuesday he tweeted, does a painter paint so he can show people, or does a painter paint to paint?

Painters could also be women, of course.

Well, of course.

That's a good point.

Does a painter paint so he can show people, or does a painter paint to paint?

It's actually really satisfying to say,

as a sort of poem.

I would say a painter paints to paint, and then

if people happen to like what he's painted, you know, because lots of people paint and nobody sees what they've painted.

That's true.

Do we podcast for people to listen, or do we podcast to podcast?

I podcast, it gets me out of bed in the morning.

It's just a bit, a few more of Robert Earnshaw's greatest hits.

It's a mixture of stand-up and philosophy, I think.

2015, he said, people who say, I hate to bother you, need to learn to hate it a little bit more.

It's quite, it's a good line.

2016, the guy who discovered milk probably did a lot of other strange things too.

I feel sorry for Monday.

Everyone seems to hate it more and more every week.

It's not Monday's fault.

I mean, on days, his greatest is

in 2020 saying, there is zero evidence that today is Sunday.

We are all kind of relying on the fact that somebody has kept an accurate count since the first one ever.

It's a very good, how do we know today is Thursday?

Do you have an answer, Johnny?

You're the probably that, you're the smartest one looking at this Zoom call.

One thing, I mean, this is not really related to anything of that, but you know, has it ever occurred to you that most of what we think of as history has just been like written down by someone contemporary?

If you go back through like newspaper reports of football games or whatever in the 60s and 70s, they're riddled with errors because,

they don't have the benefit of replays, whatever,

and there isn't the same kind of fact-checking scrutiny that there is these days.

And that's the 60s and 70s.

You imagine

somebody talking about a battle in the 1400s.

It's probably all just made up.

Most of history is just

the Normans didn't have a high press.

You're saying in the middle of the day?

Yeah, well, actually, they said

they're going to

writing 30 or 40 years later with his little, you know, tot of Benedictine, thinking, well, you know, well, I think this happened, probably, and the Saxons won this, and then so and though, the son of whatever, and oh, it's heroic.

And like that, that is what the whole of history and all the culture based on that history, uh, and you know, the national identity that is that is based on that history.

It's all, it's all just a pile of sand, but it is Thursday.

It is Thursday, yeah, okay.

Since we sent robots to Mars before sending humans, isn't it possible that the first extraterrestrials we encounter on Earth could not be the aliens themselves, but might be their technology instead.

Yeah, it is very incredibly possible.

Yeah, and then once that robot's had a look around, I'd go, Yeah, I'm not bothering going there, I'll go somewhere else.

And another one from Robert, which may some of our listeners might be in this particular position right now.

He tweeted, Do you ever zone out, but you're aware that you're zoned out, but you're too lazy to zone back in again?

Yeah, it's worth keeping your X account despite the, you know, the

just the buckets of shite in it to follow Robert Earnshaw.

Well, let's finish with this from Les.

It says, I'm Max and Barry.

Les McKeown here.

No, not the Bay City Roller.

He's dead now, as Barry will know and Max can google.

As I've been quietly enjoying the fourth season of Slow Horses, it's often occurred to me that Football Weekly is very much this slough house of football pods.

Superficially inept, but in fact surprisingly brilliant at what you do despite the raw material, and regularly leaving your more establishment podcasting colleagues in the dust.

Barry is clearly Jackson Lamb, and Max is pretty much River Cartwright's twin, separated at birth.

Does this make Jonathan Wilson first desk with John Bruin as the scheming second desk, or vice versa?

Or is producer Joel secretly pulling all the strings behind the scenes?

Thank you for all you do.

As an expat listening from the US, you bring much-needed banter and charm to a place much in need of both.

Warm regards, Les.

Are you on the Slow Horses Train, Barry?

I've just finished season two.

It's excellent.

No, I haven't seen it.

I've heard it's very good.

And I read

half the

first book and wasn't really that taken with it.

So I didn't bother finishing it.

So I'm aware of who he's referencing, but

I don't have that particular TV subscription.

And I'm currently at my limit for subscriptions to various things.

In fact, I'm currently trying to extricate myself from a Spotify account that I can't access under any circumstances, but I'm paying for every month.

So if I can get out of that, if anyone from Spotify says, please help a brother out.

I tell you, while we're on help,

I'm paying £9 to Limebite in the UK, and I cannot, I cannot undo it.

I've desperately tried.

There's nothing I can do.

I don't know what it gained.

It doesn't get me anything.

I mean, but I can't, I can't extricate myself.

However, I try and cancel the direct debit, just whatever.

It just pings back or I'm suddenly out of my account.

I don't know.

Anyway, I would say, Barry, the comparison to Jackson Lamb.

And you know, I've been guilty of being rude to you on occasion.

I would say it's unfavourable, Barry.

Okay.

So

I don't see you.

You certainly are.

I say you certainly

fart less often in public, proudly, I would say.

That would be my first observation.

Anyway, that's probably enough for today.

Thank you so much, everybody.

Thank you, Troy.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Baz.

Thanks.

Cheers, Johnny.

Thanks, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.

We'll be back on Monday.

This is The Guardian.