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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

The all-new Champions League is here.

Is it good?

It feels a little too early to tell.

Liverpool get an early fright at the San Siro but proved too strong for Milan.

Aston Villa's 5pm kickoff on Astro.

Doesn't quite feel like the glorious return to Europe's elite but they get the job done.

Then there's Bayern scoring nine, Kane getting four, Real Madrid not being great but winning.

Feel like I've said that before.

A good win for Juve and a blast from Debast in Lisbon.

And not for the first time on this pod, people asking where the hell is Jimbo?

The only thing that takes longer than scrolling down the entire Champions League table is a penalty shooter in Preston who beat Fulham 16-15 on spot kicks in the Carabao Cup.

Half the players had to go again.

Man United score seven and Everton lose again.

We've had some stick for our coverage of Arsenal and whether we should pay any attention to social media.

There's news of how Chris Awellimo reacts when you ask him what Barry is too afraid to ask your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Mark Langdon of the Racing Post.

Hello.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Barry Glendenning.

Hello.

Hello, Nikki Bandini.

Morning.

Now, let's start then with the Champions League.

Martin says, how many extra pods will you need to cover this new Champions League all-day, everyday schedule?

The new format is upon us.

Come with us on a journey as we try to figure out how to cover, order all of these games.

Let's start the San Ciro.

ACMLAN started well, didn't they, Nikki, in this first, they scored.

Christian Pulicic, the serial victim of Football Weekly's vicious anti-American agenda with a nice run and finish.

And Milan were dangerous for about 15 minutes, I thought.

Yeah, and it was kind of a neat embodiment of certainly where Milan are at the moment.

They've still got some positives going for them.

Christian Pulisic has started the season very well.

I know he's one of these players who, like you just alluded to, seems to divide opinion quite strongly.

But honestly, in Italy, he's been good since he got to Milan, and he's delivered not just in Silia, but in some of these big Champions League games as well.

And I don't know much more what you could ask of him.

But the team is going through an uncomfortable transition, I would say, right now, under Paolo Vonseca, a manager who was not the most popular appointment with the fans, who already has them all on his back after a difficult start to the season.

And

this will certainly do nothing to alleviate that going into the derby this weekend as well.

Yeah, yeah.

I heard your mate, Mini Rizuki, on the radio hammering Vonseca and, you know, and the fans at full time.

It was like, it was, it sounded like Goodison, didn't it?

There were so many booze.

Yeah, but I mean, look at the crowd is your first indicator indicator to look at in this game because it wasn't full, it wasn't close to full at San Ciro.

I don't know what the final attendance was.

I meant to check that before I came on, but I know like a day and a half out, they'd only sold 55,000 tickets, which, okay, only is the thing to say with 55,000.

But San Cedo, for a game against Liverpool, you would have expected to be packed.

I remember when they just had got back to the Champions League and they played against Liverpool, and you had fans at Anfield on the telly literally crying because they were just so emotional to be back in the Champions League playing Liverpool.

But before the game against Venezia at the weekend, there were full-on stop the team bust, demand better effort protests from fans because

there's that level of discontent right now amongst the fan base.

And

while

the ultras were there in the Court of Fasud,

and while part of it does also come down to other things like ticket prices, I think you could see the general mood around the club from the amount of empty seats and then the fact that the game ended with the fans basically telling them to start literally show your balls is what they were shouting at the end of the the game.

So, yeah, show us some effort.

In the end, Barry, quite straightforward for them.

Well, Arnold Slot got a lot of credit for changing things in midfield after about 15 minutes.

Did that impress you?

Did you notice?

I can't say I noticed, if I'm honest.

What I did notice is that I think in a recent-ish column, Nikki had said that Milan have all sorts of problems down their right-hand side.

David Calabria is a bit of a liability at right back.

and I think Arnaslop possibly read that column or had noticed it himself because he's more observant than I am when it comes to these things and Liverpool really made hay down the left and Cody Gakpo in particular was a constant menace

and

yeah it was pretty straightforward in the end two goals from crosses I mean think what Arsenal could have done against this team.

They were very Spurs-like in their defensive corners.

The Simicas corner that was headed home by Virgil Vale.

There's just literally nobody watching him.

He kind of came from the goal line and just there were four Milan players around him, but not one of them jumped.

So yeah, very sloppy from them in that regard.

A game against Inter and away in Virtual Commons match against Inter at the weekend.

One presumes, Nikki, if they lose that Fonseca, could he go?

It's hard hard to know the answer to that.

It's so soon, and generally, you'd think the board would try to at least dig in a little bit longer and defend the decisions, but I'm sure we're going to get to this.

It's hard for me not to segue here onto the fact that we've just heard Daniele De Rossi has been sacked by Roma, having been

given a three-year contract extension in the summer, so you just don't know.

It's been a not particularly straightforward run of fixtures for me, Lan.

I think it's okay to say that.

They started this game with

two points from the first three games, but that did include an away game against Lazio.

And then obviously, realistically, against Liverpool, it's not necessarily a game you expect them to win.

Going from that into the Derby, and then they've got their next Champions League game is awaited by Aleverkuzen as well.

It's not the softest run.

It's really hard to know exactly where this club is right now, because I think that the summer recruitment personally looked reasonably promising.

Yes, they had to lose Olivier Giroux, but they properly addressed the attack by bringing in Alvaro Marata and Tammy Abraham on loan.

They look like they've got real attacking options now, especially when you look at Pulistic behind that doing well.

When you look at the other players, they already had there, like Loftus Cheek, who've shown some development.

I think Tiani Reinders in midfield is a really quality option.

They brought Usen Fafana in Hafana in there as well to be the

extra body in the midfield.

On paper, it all looks good, but the defence was a mess last season.

They were awful defending set pieces last season.

They're being awful again defending set pieces this season.

To some extent, I think Fonseca should be given more time to fix this, but

the climate around the club is so not good.

And for me, it's hard to unpick that from the fact that you've got

Inter across town having just won the 20th league title and rubbed it in their faces and having got the second gold star on their badge and going, well, look, we've done this and you haven't.

I think that is so much of the discontent at Milan right now is fans not being able to handle that their neighbours are doing better.

Meanwhile, Mark, for Liverpool, I mean,

signing this guy, Ryan Gravenberg, who wasn't really there last season, and him being the number six that they'd been searching for for so long,

it is obviously players can play well and play badly but it sort of feels quite transformative seeing him play this well yeah i mean first of all liverpool haven't got their rivals rubbing their noses um in it have they no they haven't got that to uh uh concern themselves at the moment but yeah definitely graven burst in in sort of the defensive midfield role um for for slot has been a massive surprise um maybe maybe even to slot himself you know they they i'm sure would have looked in in that position and did try um you know Zubamendi could have come in and maybe he would have played there, you know, had that transfer gone through.

But, you know, good coaches find solutions and it's not always in the transfer market.

I think Graven Burch would have struggled to have played that role under Jürgen Klopp because

most people have said it was more attacking, I think, under Klopp.

And you needed somebody in there to, you know, as

Fabinho did it for so long or Endo sort of last season, just somebody to kind of hold things together with the two centre-backs while everybody else went forward.

It is more balanced now.

They do want somebody in that sixth position that can sort of distribute well.

And he started the season fantastically, not only for Liverpool, but also for Netherlands.

spoke a lot about Milan's problems.

I thought that Liverpool were outstanding after that first 15, 20 minutes.

The goals came from set pieces, but Salah smacked the woodwork.

Jotter missed a great chance where he could have passed to Gakpo.

Salah hit the woodwork again in the second half.

They've absolutely destroyed a team that's low on confidence, but I still think any win at San Cero in Europe, even if it's not a full crowd, is still one that has to be respected.

And the way that Liverpool did it, I was really impressed with the way that they bounced back from that shock defeat on Saturday.

Incredibly sad news about...

Philip Dooley, a Liverpool fan in Italy to watch this game, who died after a collision with a vehicle as he crossed the the road.

Representatives from both teams placed flowers on his seat at San Cero before kickoff.

The Liverpool manager Arna Slot and his players wore black armbands as a mark of respect.

Club spokesman said, The thoughts and prayers of everyone connected to the club are with Philip's family, friends, and fellow supporters at this extremely difficult time.

Rest in peace, Philip.

From there to Alston Villa's win at Young Boys.

Barry, producer John's harsh but fair intro as he writes, what a start to the new Champions League format this is on a 3G pitch in broad daylight,

Which is harsh.

But you know, Villa, you know, once they got used to the surface, looked very comfortable, played very well, are quite good.

Yeah, it was a very straightforward win for them once.

I think a lot of them took a while to get used to the pitch, and I think a couple of them had changed their boots after 15, 20 minutes and stuff.

Young boys weren't up to much, I have to say.

They beat Galatassarai to qualify for this group stage in a playoff, and you wonder how bad must Galatassarai be to lose over two legs to this lot.

Maybe it was a particularly bad day at the office.

I've been looking at their record so far this season, drawn three and lost three in the Swiss league.

But yeah, it was very much the villa show

after a couple of early chances for young boys.

First goal was a corner off the training ground with Yuri Thieleman's left in acres of space in the young boys' penalty area.

You know, time to chest down a cross from John McGinn and then bury the ball into the far corner.

Second goal was just

a slapstick defending from young boys.

Ollie Watkins was flattened by the keeper and would have got a penalty if

Jacob Rambly hadn't scored.

And then they had, was it two goals disallowed?

For hand ball.

The first one shouldn't have been.

The second one probably should.

But the hand ball offence occurred about 10 minutes before the goal was actually scored

and uh

yeah third goal lamadou and with uh rifles one into the bottom corner from distance so it was a very successful return to top tier european for football for villa and most importantly of course you know the win it gives them 1 million 180 000 pounds in prize money

to help with their psr and that's that's what it's all about Max profit and sustainability not never mind the glory it's a it's another 1 million 180 grand in the bank um but maybe they could reduce their their ticket prices i mean i was sad for john duran because that finish from that angle was just so good i mean he's i mean we talked about him a bit on monday mark but he's a sort of ridiculous footballer at the moment it's just so red hot he is and i mean it was unfortunate that that goal got ruled out because the way they hit it was was beautiful

You can understand his frustration at not playing.

Difficult to see necessarily how him and Watkins kind of play together, really,

but gives Villa depth up front that I'd maybe had assumed they didn't have going into the start of the season.

I clearly underestimated his abilities.

I mean, Watkins came off didn't he and had ice on his ankle

in that second half.

Ordinarily, you'd be thinking, oh, that could be bad news for Villa at the weekend against Wolves.

But Duran looks like he is no less of a forward than Watkins.

And that's a great sort of option for Villa to have.

I do think their man of the match, though, was the cult hero now, that set piece coach, Austin McPhee.

It looked stupid from young boys, but I think that that was the way that Villa planned the corner.

And, you know, a lot to be said, I think, for those that are investing in set pieces.

I watched that several times because I was trying to figure out how

Yuri Tielemans was left in so much space.

And I just don't understand how all the young boys players were drawn towards the near post and left him in total isolation in, as I say, the middle of the penalty area.

But I will bow in the face of Austin McPhee's apparent Jedi powers of

set piece organisation.

I thought you were going to come in, Mark.

I thought you had an explanation, Mark, but no.

No, I think I have.

I just thought I'd let Barry have the glory of that one.

Maybe the silence worked for him.

Well, if you know, you can tell us.

I mean,

I wasn't trying to best Mark right now.

I just couldn't figure out how was he left on his own like that.

One thing we didn't mention on Monday, I think, that when Villa played Everton at home on Saturday night,

a fans group had tried to organise a protest and it never materialized.

I wrote wrote a column about it, how they've basically said to the owners, just charge whatever you like.

We'll take it.

Dan Bardell, obviously, is our friend.

He's got a big problem with these ticket prices and what the owners are doing to fans.

But a remarkable number of Villa fans are defending their owners.

And it's almost like they have Stockholm syndrome.

It's just bizarre.

I cannot get my head around it at all.

But

yeah, maybe today isn't the time because, you know.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you say that.

I mean, I just think, I suspect, and we'll get to it a bit, I think, when we talk Arsenal, whatever you say, there will be a set of fans, whether match going or not, are just on social media who are who will just, you know, be sensationalist about everything.

And it's sort of impossible not to notice them, especially if they're coming at you.

But it's not sensationalists, it's defending the indefensible just because it's their club and they believe every word of golf that the hierarchy drip feed them about profit and sustainability.

You know, like Philadelphia owners must have gone, God, we could have charged him 200 quid a ticket.

We've missed a trick here.

Maybe.

Can I just go back to Mark?

Could you explain why Yuri Tillamans was in so much space?

So

I think it's because the young boys defenders, there was a short corner, wasn't there?

And I think the young boys' defenders were expecting it to be whipped into the near post and sort of an in-swinging corner.

and they changed the delivery and Tillimans clearly knew what was going on and

that's why he was in so much space.

I'm happy with that.

I'm happy with that.

And as Barry, I mean, we've probably done enough on how Yuri Tillimans is in space given.

No,

that makes sense.

That makes sense.

Ben Fisher writing in the paper about Gary Shaw, one of Aston Villa's 1982 European Cup heroes, who's died pretty tragically at the age of 63.

He fell seriously ill after being hospitalised with a head injury earlier this month.

He won the first division in 81 under Ron Saunders and the 82 European Cup and European Super Cup.

He got the PFA Young Player of the Year in 1981, European Young Player of the Year in 1982, scored 79 in 213 appearances.

Dennis Mortimer, who captained Villa to European Glory in 82, posted a tribute on the Aston Villa website saying he was a Birmingham lad and he gave so much to the football club, his passing leaves with a big void.

He was a very likable person who would talk to anybody when we were playing.

He was a young man who reveled in playing football.

After he finished, he loved the opportunity to talk about the game, to talk about Aston Villa and his part in the club's history.

He was such a lovely lad, it's such a shame we've lost him far too soon.

May he rest in peace and we'll be back in a second.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly uh so by Munich 9, Dinymo Zagreb 2, which I wonder was the

first time a team had scored 9.

As producer Joel says, you don't remember HJK's 11-0 win over Bangor City in the second qualifying round in 2011.

No, do forgive me.

But the first time a team has scored 9 in the group stage, Liverpool beat Bajiktas 8-0 in 07-08, Real Madrid beat Malmo 8-0 in 15-16.

Nikki,

what conclusions do we draw from Bayern Munich swatting Dinamo Zagrev aside 9-2?

I was just wondering if we get to reset all these records

again.

Now we have the new group stage.

Is this one of those things where from now on, everything is a historic first?

The first goals scored, the first

Tuesday 5pm goals.

I don't know what we learned from this.

There have been mismatches in the Champions League before.

I think it's definitely would be too new-jerked to say, oh, this is the new format.

I think that's not

how it's structured.

I think that Bayern have have kind of got a chip on their shoulder at the start of this season after everything that happened last season with Bayer Levikus and getting ahead of them in the Bundesliga with not getting to finish season with any silverware.

I think

obviously it's it's very impressive and great to see Harry Kane back doing all the things that England fans might be frustrated he couldn't do for England in the summer.

I don't know that there is much to learn from this by a Bayern Bayer Munich are a much better team than Dynamo Zagreb is what we learned from this.

That's correct is one point.

Well the the funny thing is, it could have been worse because Byron had two goals disallowed, but they went 3-0 up.

It looked like it was going to be a total turkey shoot.

And then Dynamo's Zagreb pulled two back, and I think that just kind of riled up Byron Munich.

And they were, Zagreb were promptly slapped down for their impertinence, weren't they?

Yeah, I mean, when you see Zagreb score that second goal and the way they said about it, come on, this is it, grab the ball.

When you know the full-time result, you're like, oh, I didn't quite quite work like that.

33 Champions League goals for Harry Kane.

He moves ahead of Wayne Rooney on 30 as the top English goalscorer in the competition.

I mean, the best goal, Mark, was Guerrero's, wasn't it?

The chest and the half-volley.

They're two of the greatest things you can see on a football pitch.

Yeah, it really was.

You know, don't often see, I suppose,

a

left-footed right back pop up in that position, but it was perfect because it landed absolutely right on the sweet spot for him to sort of smash it in.

Yeah,

it was great.

It was hard to keep up really with the

goals as they went in and then being disallowed.

And then there was one that went in and was disallowed.

And then it became a penalty.

I had lost track at kind of the rhythm of the goals during it.

It was only harder to keep up with the Preston Fulham penalty shootout when we got.

Yeah, 19 shots on target for Bayern um in in that game which which is an impressive statistic i i would say that the two against would be the concern if you're thinking about buying in terms of whether they go on to win um the competition and just in terms of the format i'm going to say this is a tick in the box for the format because at least we haven't got to watch that game again

three weeks time good point um

i mean it might be a shame that we don't get to see rail madrid travel to stuttgart and barry and i were rowing about whether this was interesting or not on the whatsapp group but i was mightily impressed impressed with Stuttgart at the Burnabau, Barry.

I don't know if you...

Yeah, well, I was rowing about this before I'd seen it, and it was almost certainly the game of the night.

It was really, really good.

I will admit, I've only seen a highlights package because I watched the Liverpool game and the Villa games in their entirety.

Stuttgart really went at Real Madrid.

They had...

I think five pretty decent chances to score before

Real Madrid got a a sniff.

Just on the face of it, I suppose Real Madrid 3, Stuttgart 1, it looks like a fairly straightforward win for Real, but it was anything but.

And I was very impressed with what I saw Stuttgart.

But yeah,

they were second best in the end.

Yeah, Courtwell was brilliant in this game.

I wonder, Mark, you know, because we've seen this so many times, Real Madrid sort of not being great and still winning, are we understating perhaps the potential issue of, you you know, trying to shoehorn who started?

Like, Mbappe, Bellingham, Rodrigo, Vinicius all started.

And so, and it's someone, I can't remember, probably someone else attacking, but like, like, like, it feels imbalanced a bit.

Yeah, they're definitely still trying to work it out.

I think if anybody can, Ancelotti would be as good as anyone to, you know, he's not, he's not wedded to a system or a belief or a method of way of playing.

I think he looks at what he's got and then, you know, figures it out and plays a formation and that suits the players.

And they are still trying to, I think, come to terms with that.

They were fortunate to win this game.

But as you alluded to in the intro, it just feels like Real Madrid, just almost every game in the Champions League plays out in this way.

Collectively, Stuttgart were the better side,

but individually...

they haven't got the same amount of talent as what Real Madrid have got.

And, you know, that's what decided the game.

I thought Undev for Stuttgart was really good.

You mentioned all those star players up front for Real Madrid.

He was the one that caught the eye as much as anyone, really.

So I thought he was fantastic, but wasn't to be for Stuttgart.

But this is a team that lost some of their best players in the summer, surprised to finish second in the Bundesliga.

I thought it was a great effort from them, albeit that they

lost a game.

And the final score was really harsh.

Hendrik got that golf and Nubo nubal mistake really as much as anything but yeah i thought they were excellent stuttgart i do feel like the result was harsh on whoever played rail madrid is the story we've been telling about rail madrid in the champions league for several years um but yeah stuttgart well briefing and undavi undav is is really something isn't he i mean he has been banging them in the mundane as well so i have to say i'd missed uh dennis undav leaving brighton so i was a bit surprised to see him playing so well in this game for stuttgart uh i that one That's another one that passed me by.

While we're on clarifications, Mark, it sounded like you said Hendrik.

And I just say Jeff Hendrik has not signed for Real Madrid.

They came to me, Balanced.

You're absolutely right.

And my only other point on this was that Stuttgart were one big cell met away from basically wearing Middlesbrough's kit from 1997

to Juve, who beat PSV 3-1.

The opening goal from Kennan Yield is so good, isn't it?

He's an exciting player, Nikki.

Yeah, another one of those where you have to sort of remind yourself, still a teenager, still a teenager, and doing things like that.

He's outrageous.

The finish was brilliant.

The football has been an up and down so far under Thiago Macho.

I think it's one of the projects I'm most intrigued about this season because he did such extraordinary work at Bologna last season.

They came out of the gates really fast in Serie A, and the first couple of games won really emphatically.

Then they've had a couple of goalless draws, and suddenly you're back to asking, okay, has this team really hit its next level from the Max Allegri football that we saw them play for the last couple of seasons?

I really like Gilders.

I think Coop Miners was just quietly one of the signings of the summer, and I thought he was really impressive again here.

And it was a really confident start for Juventus in the Champions League, which they haven't done great in for a little while.

So, yeah, it's certainly something the club would like to see happen again.

More broadly, what's the sort of Italian view of

the new system, the all-new format?

I think there's the same as it is sort of everywhere else.

There's a certain amount of curiosity, a certain amount of...

I don't know quite the way to express it.

I think there's a very Italian mode sometimes which is verging on indifference because it's, well, these are certainly I'm talking from a fan perspective here.

And I think this might reflect some of what went on with the Milan fans not turning out in such big numbers for the Liverpool game as well.

I think that's a complicated picture.

There's a lot happening there.

But I think there's been for a long time, and you saw it when the Super League story was unfolding as well:

frustration with modern football in Italy and a feeling that it's less good than it used to be, but also this feeling of, and what are you going to do about it?

This is what they're doing, they're ruining football, and shrug.

I think there's a certain amount of that

in the fan mindset towards modern football in Italy.

And I think that probably is an overriding feeling towards how the structure has changed.

For the clubs it's a positive because the clubs all need to make more money and they're consistently failing to do that through broadcast deals for celiac the broadcast deals for cellier have not come in where they wanted to there was this protracted negotiation this summer for the us rights where they were trying to get a better package than they got last time

cbs weren't wanting to go any higher and and so they had to kind of go back and and and make the same deal as last time in effect because they couldn't get anyone else put in a better bid and and at least where they are now they're getting a good amount of proper screen time um and and a i guess a broadcast that's willing to put effort into putting a good studio around the show and making it something that's entertaining and a good product but but they certainly haven't been able to make the money they hope to make and you can see it also in the uk rights where

We've gone down to two games a week on TNT and the rest going on the internet in a paper club or paper game or paper season pass model on one football.

We'll get to that in a second.

Sporting being a little little 2-0, Gokarez adding a few more noughts to his price tag.

Mark, up to 85 billion now, but he's some player, isn't he?

It was

a great finish.

Hard to know how good he is.

And we won't know, I suspect, from most people's eyes anyway, until he does make that move into kind of one of Europe's top leagues.

And until he does that, is anyone going to pay the money that Sporting wants?

So

it might be a happy situation for sporting where they just got this you know potentially great player so um it was i would have when that goal went in i would have assumed that that was the best goal of the night the best finish of the night in that game and uh he ended up being um outdone um also a shout out for in

england's um angle gomez who um was sent off um i thought the second yellow was was really unfortunate is he called angle i've been calling him angel

uh yeah i've got that wrong i've got it's it is angel

Yeah,

I'm loving Angel instead.

Sorry,

I went all foreign.

No, you went all Steve McLaren, didn't you?

But also another one in the Zero at the second goal.

Another one in the eye for long-range gold denier, Jonathan Wilson, Zeno de Bast.

Oh, Barry, this was heaven.

Yeah, just

absolute.

Is it one of those ones you love that stayed ball?

Yeah, it stayed ball.

Yeah, it was just a Zeno de Bast,

right-footed, absolute screamer in top corner.

Beauty.

And yeah, another player is stepping up to

make a fool out of Jonathan Wilson.

And

I'm here for that.

Some interesting lines from Alison and Rodri in terms of how much football they're having to play.

Allison in Liverpool's press conference before the Milan game said, Nobody asked the players what they think about adding more games.

Maybe our opinion doesn't matter.

Everyone knows what we think about having more games.

Everyone is tired of of that.

We're not stupid.

We understand that people want more games, but the reasonable thing would be for all the people responsible for organizing the calendar to sit together and listen to all the parts, including the players.

At the end, all we want to do is give our best.

If you're tired, you cannot compete at a high level.

Rodri said, I think we're close to a strike.

He was asked if striking was an option.

He said, I think we're close to that.

It's easy to understand.

If you ask any player, he'll say the same.

It's not the opinion of Rodri or whatever.

It's the general opinion of the players.

And if it keeps that way, there'll be a moment where we have no other option.

It's something that worries us because we're the guys that suffer.

This year, we can go to 70, maybe 80.

I don't know.

Depends how far you go in the competitions.

It is too much.

We have to take care of ourselves.

Not everything is money or marketing.

It's also the quality of the show.

When I'm not tired, I perform better.

And if the people want to see a better footballer, we need to rest.

I mean, he's right, Nikki, isn't he?

They are both right.

Yeah,

I don't know that this feels like a conversation that's...

Not going anywhere.

Of course, the players need to rest.

It's going to become,

well, it's not going to become, it is an issue.

It's not going anywhere.

Plenty of them being vocal about it at the moment.

And also, football is the gigantic money-making beast that it is and isn't going to change for them.

So

I don't know.

I don't know what there is to add to this story that hasn't already been said.

No, you're probably right.

I mean, it's interesting, Barry, when you talked about, you know, Aston Villa fans not protesting.

I find it hard to imagine players going on strike.

I just can't.

It It seems unlikely.

Why, though, I can imagine it.

It's happened in other sports.

Baseball players have gone on strike, haven't they?

Was that about what was that about?

Was that about a I'm not sure.

I don't follow baseball.

I do know baseball players, they tend to have a match every single day for about

eight months, don't they?

Maybe it was about the ball being too hard or those gloves being uncomfortable.

They're my two possible.

I don't know.

Maybe they're not allowed to spit one on the mound anymore.

Yeah, I'm not a baseball fan, so I don't

I just do know they have gone on strike.

But yeah, I could easily why wouldn't they go on strike?

If if they feel strongly enough about it.

No, I don't just I think they probably do feel strongly.

I just wonder just the way footballers are advised and the agents who have an in you know

you know are interested in their players, but are they interested in their players playing and making money and you you know in terms of who goes on strike and who crosses picket lines i don't know i i i i i i just i can't see when it comes to a head mark i guess is that is my feeling it's like this is a conversation we keep on having as nikki says we've been having this conversation for years now what's the tipping point i don't know because this champions league isn't and that's some more games so what would be the tipping point yeah i mean baseball is played in sort of

in two countries i suppose really in terms of um in terms of mlb with with canada and and the us

like football is worldwide you i think very difficult to get everybody joined up there and so you would need what

europe to um or is it just champions league players that you that would go on strike i hard to know kind of where that that line is really on strike i'd i would say that rodri in a second language spoke so eloquently i don't know if you actually watched the um press conference i know you read a lot of it out there but he i thought he was fantastic and is a kind of leader and an ambassador for um I think, a better way that it should be.

And I think they're absolutely right that UEFA and FIFA should be speaking to each other.

That is part of the problem, though, in that this new FIFA Club World Cup format, which three group stage games and then four knockout matches at the end of a season,

you know, that's going to finish very shortly before the start of the new domestic campaign.

That feels like a tipping point and something that was just not needed, you know, when most players could have had the summer off i i really want to see rodri and allison and assorted other players i standing outside uefa hq in beanie hats and fingerless gloves warming their hands over a barrel with passing motorists beeping their horns in support do you want to see the image that's now in my head is having having been to a few union meetings is now just all these uh Premier League footballers sitting in extremely long conversations in which no one actually gets around to agreeing anything, is what I think of.

The problem with strikes is

there's levels and levels of player experience.

Obviously, at the top end, yes, it's the players who are going to play the most games, and they're the ones most affected by adding on these elite-level competitions at the end of things.

They're also the ones who are getting paid the most.

So, how are you persuading everyone all down the pyramid, if that's what you're aiming for, to strike with you?

How are you convincing them it's in everyone's interest?

How are you

helping out the players who are Academy players who aren't making as much yet in a period when they might have to stop earning if all this came to pass?

It's complicated.

It's complicated.

And do you then get a situation like with the NFL lockouts in the 80s when they had scrubs being brought in and strike breakers?

And

it's a fascinating idea.

I won't pretend it isn't.

Like it's a fascinating idea what would happen if they actually tried to follow through on this and strike.

When I was at the BBC, we went on strike.

And obviously no one cared because, you know, if someone else is reading the news, it doesn't like you can still get to work, no one gave a shit.

But, like, our bosses had to read the news, and it was great because they were shite, and it was really fun for us.

And

I just wanted the idea that suddenly I'm like, Tottenham, I'm about to put Daniel Levy up top.

You know, Levy and Levy and Posta Coglu up top there.

It'll be fun to watch, wouldn't it?

You'd be like, probably get big viewers.

Anyway,

I don't know if anyone else has looked at the league table because it was just really, it just looks so silly because it's so big.

It's just fun to scroll down.

Go, God, this takes forever.

Um, Aiden says, Does Barry think that the goal show on TNT is shite without James Richardson?

This was this was, I mean, I don't know if this is self-indulgent because you know, we're interested in broadcasting and you know, he has some ties to this podcast, but um, uh, the goal show not being the goal show was a blow to the WhatsApp group.

Yeah, it was weird because, uh, for anyone who doesn't know or doesn't watch TNT sport, the goal show was a show, so you've an option of you can watch a game or live, or you can watch a panel of guests watching games and just talking as, you know, you see the goals as they go in.

And then it's Julian Lorraine, Rafa Honigstein,

James Horncastle, who are all sort of experts in various fields of continental football.

And so they...

they're keeping you abreast of what's going on in various games.

And James Richardson is the host, and he's throwing to each of them as various things happen.

It wasn't a show I watched, I have to say, because I just prefer watching one game at a time.

But it was very popular, and I was somewhat discombobulated last night when it wasn't on.

So they have a similar kind of thing, and it was Matt Smith was presenter with Karen Kearney and Owen Hargreaves, I think it was.

Julian was there as well.

wasn't he Julian Roberts?

Oh, Julian was there as well, was he?

Yeah, right.

So no sign of Rafa.

I think Rafa was at a game and no sign of Jimbo.

so i thought oh maybe jimbo is is somewhere uh consorting with burly men lithuanian and estonian men in lycra lifting giant boulders i texted him and he said no he's he's not going to be involved this year so uh

it seems an odd decision on tnt's part because that was a very popular show and they've they've completely changed it there's an interesting point marking that that you know the proliferation of rights right so now in the uk so so you're very aware that half audience are not in the UK, but in the UK, Amazon have got the first pick on a Tuesday.

So that meant that TNT couldn't show those goals at all, or they could show probably a bit of the action.

If you're a viewer, you really want one company to have a monopoly, but not charge very much.

But just that's not how it works, right?

It's not.

No,

I was more...

upset at the format though with the new show.

Nothing against Matt Smith.

I think he's a perfectly fine presenter.

And had it been him, you know, with the usual team in the usual format,

I don't think people would have been anywhere near as upset.

But what normally happens is that it's very much like red zone for those that sort of follow NFL, where

you're constantly flicking between games.

So even if they only had the rights to three of them, you'd maybe be stuck on Real Madrid for 10, 15 minutes.

Then, I mean, every five minutes, it felt like there was a goal of buying, but then you'd pop off to Munich and

during that time, the kind of European experts would just be talking about the problems at whichever club they're discussing or kind of the future with real in-depth knowledge.

And that became very difficult because they changed it to very like a soccer Saturday where

Raf Honenstein is talking to us about the game and the goal goes in and we're not able to see it like we was

sort of

in the previous season.

So hopefully they're able to sort of change the format back to how everyone likes it.

It does remind remind me, though, of the Pep Guardiola quote where he said that everybody likes change as long as it's the same as it was before.

There may be just be a new settling in period, but yeah, I'm more Red Zone fan than I would be Soccer Saturday, and this felt more like Soccer Saturday than Red Zone.

All right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll do the League Cup.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

I mean, it does seem harsh to put League Cup games on on the same night as champion.

How are we meant to watch all of this?

I don't know how much you've managed to consume.

Paul said, Did Manchester United score quite enough goals to get any credit from Football Weekly?

Barry, is a 7-0 win over Barnsley enough for us to say well done?

Well, I had a friend who's a Manu fan.

I woke up to a WhatsApp message from him.

He was expecting us to have an additional part four to talk about how great Manchester United were against Barnsley.

And while it's a very good result for Manchester United, it's also sort of a sign of where they are these days because while Liverpool are smiting AC Milan in the San Ciro and Villa are getting the new look Champions League off to a great start on the Astral Turf in Switzerland, United are,

yeah, they're spanking seven past Barnsley, and it's kind of a bit of a shoulder shrug, really.

But yeah, it's a good result, but it's they beat Barnsley in the League Cup.

Meh.

I did love the Barnsley coach Darrell Clark's assessment after the game, where he said if he ever hears any of these players again talking about how poor Premier League players are, then he's going to give them a slap.

Because, and it is true,

I've i've been guilty of it and i'm sure you know most people have just occasionally they're rubbish or you know they're not very good and you know brennan johnson for instance had to um he's come off instagram after the criticism he's been receiving and you know every premier league player gets a load of stick and you just forget how good they actually are sometimes and you know they're playing against league one professionals um and manchester united have absolutely torn them apart and just show and league one players are you know very good the level you've got to be to play League One.

And they were nowhere near.

Well, that also goes back to the part of when you're furious with Brennan Johnson, you're ignoring the fact that he's playing against the Arsenal back four on Sunday for Russell, who are also really good.

And actively, their entire...

All they want to do is stop him doing what he's trying to do.

It's not that easy.

Everton took the lead once again, but they lost on penalty to Southampton.

They did have chances.

Alex McCarthy saved Ashley Young's spot kick in sudden death.

A sentence we could have said in any year since 2007.

Preston, Preston Fulham, 1615 on penalties.

I watched the whole thing.

I mean, it took all morning.

It was like watching John Isna versus Nicholas Mahut.

You know,

it just never ended.

And then, you know, the keepers took their penalties and then they just go back.

I wondered what happened.

You just go back to the same order again.

And they just started going again.

So Raul Jimenez went first and 12th for

Fulham.

I watched the highlights package of this just before we started recording, and it was very much, oh, for God's sake, like

the highlights package on Sky was eight minutes long, and five and a half of those minutes were the penalty shootout.

So, uh,

yeah, it's what at what point the fans were like, just somebody,

anyone.

You're like, I don't care, I don't

want to win, just somebody miss somebody score either of you are going to win the league

let us go home i've got work in the morning you've got to bus home back to london

uh eddiagetti got his first goal for palace at qpr who did equalize layton orient took the lead at brentford was a nice moment for them um fabio carvaleo scored a low budget overhead kick uh um in that now look nikki we got quite a lot of flack on monday for our coverage of arsenal and on previous pods too why

because

they, well, we got flack for going overboard when we talked about the reaction to Martin Odegaard's injury, and we got flack for

perhaps not praising them enough, having two injured players and beating Tottenham at the weekend.

And

I think partly fairly, I think, I don't know.

I think the point is, as we mentioned before when you got stick about Villa, right, is that

when a big club, when something happens to a player at a big club, of course the internet melts down.

But that that is not necessarily reflective of normal fans who aren't just tweeting, look, this happens sometimes.

You know, and so it is, I don't know, I sometimes think it's incumbent on us to sort of ignore everything we see.

But I am talking about normal fans.

When Odegaard was injured,

Ars Blog,

and who I would consider a very rational, fair-minded Arsenal fan,

he was complaining about the schedule and about there being an international break in September.

Sophie Nicolau was the same.

I would consider her very fair handed usually.

A couple of mates of mine in the pub who are Arsenal fans who I would consider slightly less even-handed and fair.

They were moaning about the international break and about international football being the the source of Martin Odegaard's injury.

Right, he was injured on international duty, but that could just as easily have happened in a training session or when he was walking down the stairs at home.

It's just one of those things.

And it is a fact that Martin Odegaard had a very long summer holiday because he wasn't at the Euros, and he had only played five games in three weeks.

That's not a lot.

So I

stand over my comments.

I'm not having a go with Sophie or Andrew Mangan, aka R's Blog.

I'm just saying that they were complaining and I would consider them very

normal, sane Arsenal fans.

I consider Nikki a very normal fan.

I'm no longer sure what I'm responding to because Max came in saying that we got some flack on the podcast and we never quite got as far as hearing what the flack was.

So I'm not sure what I'm responding to.

I think we got criticism for

listening to social media.

I think we got criticism on Monday for

perhaps not praising arson enough in the position i think you know jonathan wilson said look you know

they they still potentially could you know not quite make it but i think we did say he did say that they you know 89 points is an amazing record they are clearly a very good team but i don't know if we weren't effusive i i don't know that conversation conversation on monday felt like we we weren't quite giving arsenal off and i'm really conscious as a total fan that I perhaps wouldn't.

It's really hard.

People who haven't done these shows, like I've thought even on this podcast, did we talk enough about Liverpool?

Because I came in talking about Meeland at the top of this podcast.

Do we always get enough on all of the teams?

It's hard to always get the balance right.

Obviously, as an Arsenal fan, going into that game away at Tottenham, missing players like Declan Rice, Odegaard, you do think that's going to be a really tough game.

And so winning it feels flipping brilliant.

Yeah, delighted that they beat Tottenham.

I thought it was a really nice show of character and of the resilience in that defence.

I don't know if that's what what you're looking for from me right now or if there's something else that you're asking me.

Well, I'm not sure why Arsenal fans expect people who aren't Arsenal fans to be as enthusiastic about Arsenal as they are.

I mean why wouldn't they be?

That's every team though.

Every team's fans think that.

Every team's fans think you're not enthusiastic enough about their team.

That's just football.

I don't care about Arsenal.

I mean to beat Spurs.

It's not that hard to beat Spurs.

Lots of teams beat Spurs.

Do you have any thoughts, Mark?

Well,

i was there on sunday i i was watching the game thinking this is the most boring north london derby i i can sort of like remit it's usually explosive and arson had decided from fairly early on that you know they they felt very comfortable in that they could control what what totton were trying to do um without necessarily looking a big threat themselves apart from their ball situations and they managed to score from one of those and i think what you would say about arson is that you know for a number of years they were criticized for being too soft and for not being able to do i think what they did at tottenham and also in the previous away game aston villa too hard despite what barry says i would still say it's still quite a hard away game um at tottenham and a hard away game at aston villa they haven't played as well as what they can do i would say in both of those games but they've managed to keep clean sheets and win them both.

And so,

yeah, is that enough?

Maybe that's enough credit.

Alex says, just just want to state that the lads were talking absolute shite on the pod in regards to the Ronnie Rosenthal miss and that you were right, Max.

The one-yard misses with balls pinged at you where you have no control are much harder.

These men have books.

Yeah, I'll yell that at the

Monday's panel.

And Caspar Wickerstad, I hope I pronounced that correctly, who is a Norwegian commentator, got in touch, Barry, on the subject of you being unable to ask Chris Auelimo about that miss through cowardice.

He said, I did the opposite of you, Barry.

When I met Chris iwellamo at la manga i asked for an interview many years ago the reply i got was what miss he said

well done chris in the efl trophy in the max versus producer joel darby charlton won 2-1 at the abbey cambridge still winless in all competitions so far this season trust the process um evan says Did Barry know that Andy Carroll was still playing football?

Were you aware of this, Barry?

I hadn't really given Andy Carroll a thought.

I think, was he

embroiled in some sort of minor skirmish outside a restaurant in London during the summer, or was that?

I think that's the last time Andy

Carroll was on my radar.

I think last time I, in a footballing capacity, he was playing League Two football in France.

Was that a second division?

Very good, very good.

Yeah, apparently, he's on the move from Amiens to Bordeaux, who are in the fourth tier

after being

Bordeaux.

The financial problems, didn't, yeah, yeah.

Um, so look, bon chance, Monsieur Carroll.

Uh, finally, this is from Mark.

Hi, Max and Barry.

I've noticed there haven't been many wonderful Barry wedding best of luck messages recently, so I thought I'd send one over in the hope these aren't a thing of the past.

My good friend Ollie is marrying the lovely Gina in Bordeaux.

Hopefully, Andy Carroll will make an appearance next weekend.

No minor skirmishes there.

Uh, imagine, is there any legal reason why these cannot be wed?

Why I?

Uh, as he bursts through the door.

Anyway, Ollie fancies himself as a bit of a football expert, but actually couldn't hold a candle to the Ethan Pinnock Pushkus levels of Barry.

Ollie is a deluded Arteta disciple, after all.

He's an avid listener of the pod.

I'd love it if you could scold him for being a bit of a groomzilla.

Congratulate him on finding the most wonderful Gina.

Commiserations to Gina.

And give Barry's customary sage-like wedding advice.

Fun fact, the first time I met Gina, she vomited all over the back of my new Audi.

Thanks so much, and I really appreciate you taking the time to read this.

Love the pod, never miss an episode.

That is from Mark.

So, Barry, it is Ollie and Gina who vomits in Audis, and they're getting married in Bordeaux.

Well, you actually sent me this WhatsApp message,

and I would have been gentlemanly enough not to mention the fact that Gina had vomited in the back of an Audi on the first night she met.

What's his name who sent the mail?

Mark.

Mark.

Yeah, on the first night she met Mark.

I think that's very unchivalrous of Mark to bring that up.

I think it's unchivalrous of you to read it out.

I mean, it was unchivalrous of Gina to bring it up in the Audi, really.

Yeah,

but then vomiting in someone's car is a heinous offence because it's very difficult to get rid of the smell.

The Audi, Audi is quite pricey cars as well.

So,

yeah, I'd just like to wish Ollie and Gina all the best and hopefully she won't, I don't know, vomit all over her dress or

the top table at the reception.

One tear.

Yeah, poor Gina.

I mean, poor Gina.

She's been named and shamed here.

There are people listening who are going to know who she is and now they know to know what she's done.

We send you our love.

May you have a very

happy life together.

And a packet of wet women.

Exactly.

Don't vomit over Andy Carroll when he storms the wedding.

Anyway.

That'll do for today.

Thank you so much, Mark.

I'm also at a wedding max on Saturday, Liam and Jen.

and as far as I know, Jen has never vomited in anyone's car.

So, best luck to them, and thank you, Max.

Best of luck to everyone getting married this weekend.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Thank you, Nikki.

Thanks.

Bumble Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.

We'll be back tomorrow.

This is The Guardian.