Lee Carsley’s new-look England and more Scotland woe: Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly, a game of handbreaks, anthems and kind of Irishman scoring for England.

It didn't have to be Decton Rice and Jack Grealish with the goals, but it turned out it was.

Lee Carsley's first half as interim England manager was very impressive, slick passing, Trent pinging it into Anthony Gordon and a couple of well-taken goals.

It got a little stodgy after that, but still not a bad start.

Hard to read too much into it from an English and Irish perspective, given the golfing quality between the two sides.

Ewan Murray joins us from the Jazz Bar to discuss two very late defeats for Scotland.

Some reasons to be positive though, McTominay scoring and holding Portugal for so long.

Speaking of them, do we owe Cristiano an apology?

While Ewan's there, we'll do some club Fitbar and also discuss Craig Bellamy's impressive debut in the dugout for Wales, civil war in the Chelsea boardroom, outfield players in goal and a lovely bit of non-league.

All that plus your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hi, Max.

From Not the Top 20 podcast.

George Elek, hello.

Hello, Max.

And Robin Cowan, nice to see you, Robin.

And you, Max, thank you.

Moonlight Hanger says, could we be told which panelists sang along to the intro music for the pods so we can tell if they're qualified to take part or not?

Look, we will get, we are denied whether to talk about that bit at all, but we will start with the football.

Seems like a good idea.

We talked about it, Barry, on Thursday, didn't we?

About, you know, Declan Rice possibly scoring and how he'd celebrate Jack Grealish.

And it's funny that that's what happened.

Yeah, I suppose it is.

I mean, I think if any Irishmen were going to score in that game, it was always likely to be them.

And you couldn't have scripted it better.

It was quite funny.

Declan Rice, as you sort of called it, Max, went with the non-celebration celebration as a show of respect to his

father's side of his family, he said after the game, and I presume to Ireland's fans.

I can think of better ways he could have shown Ireland fans respect, but let's not go there.

A, by not scoring, and B, by not playing for us three times, then buggering off to England, where he might have a better chance of winning something.

Yeah, he scored.

Jack Grealish scored.

I was hugely impressed with England.

You know, you could definitely see differences between England under Lee Carsley and England under Gareth Southgate.

I thought they moved the ball forward with more purpose.

They moved it quicker.

There were some great, you know, giving goes that led to the

second goal where Declan Rice was, you know, I think he played wall passes to Maino-Saka and then Grealish, who struck the ball into the corner.

And

Ireland's defence, you know, were caught out badly there.

They were caught out badly with the first goal as well, just being completely undone by a ball from Deep from Trent Alexander Arnold, which put Anthony Gordon into a one-on-one with Keeving Kelleher, who got the better of him.

Gordon was able to recycle the ball and

that led to Rice's goal.

I wouldn't read too much into this, obviously, because this is a Nations League, and because

while the Nations League is supposed to pit teams of equal ability against each other, the gulf in class between England and Ireland was horribly exposed in that first half.

I mean, I can't remember seeing a better performance from any team at Lansdowne Road.

In,

well, I just can't remember one than that.

England, you know, understandably took their foot off the gas in the second half, but Keeving Kelleher still had several excellent saves to make to keep the score down and uh it was just a quite sad and humiliating day for Ireland I think in Irish football another another in a long

another one yeah I did like Kavanosty writing was that the first recorded example of an international non-celebration celebration or did Alfredo DiStefano give it the bigger when he scored for Spain against Argentina um Terry says can we get a status update on England's handbrake Robin where is where is the handbrake currently?

The terms cars ball and handbrake, I think, just should be.

Yeah, I mean,

is it the handbrake?

Maybe a bit of the handbrake, but for me, it was just the players in their comfortable positions.

You know, Trent, even though playing at right back, was going into midfield and looking really composed.

And then also Levi Colwell, who's not, I mean, I know he has played left back, but he was kind of tucking in, playing as another centre-half.

So he looked comfortable.

Anthony Gordon on the left was brilliant.

So I feel like it was, although, yes, they did play with more freedom.

I mean, my goodness.

I mean, the contrast between that performance and basically the majority of the tournament in the summer is just unbelievable.

But I just feel like they were...

square pegs in square holes and they looked they looked very comfortable in what they were doing.

The only thing is that

Greenish was obviously great, but Bellingham wasn't available.

Carl Palmer wasn't available.

What if Kieran Trippia hadn't retired?

Would he be tempted to put him at left back, just as a little nod to Garel Southgate?

So it's just, it would be interesting when all those players come back,

whether he would have stuck with that.

And also, yeah, Foden

in for Gordon, because Gordon, that's clearly, he's comfortable in that position.

Foden, we're still not sure.

So

that's going to be an interesting thing when they're all available.

Yeah.

That's just the interesting thing, George, isn't it?

That

Gareth Southgate never quite worked out what to do with Trenton Alexander Arnold and always picked Kyle Walker really when he played for at the back at right back.

And so to see Trenton Alexander Arnold there and the fact that Anthony Gordon is really fast so can run in behind helps Trent Alexander Arnold kick the ball a long way to him.

Yeah, it all seemed and looks very simple.

And I think

you mentioned Kyle Walker there.

Gareth Southgate

has good reason to trust and believe in Kyl Walker for a long period of time.

It's going to be very hard for him to drop him.

And therefore, with a new manager coming in, and therefore being able to

just have a clean slate, basically, and not have to worry too much about dropping players who perform well for him and pick the best players possible.

You know, I'm someone who defended Gareth Southgate as much as possible, but there were definitely moments during the first half on Saturday where I was like, ugh.

maybe he should have gone after Qatar.

Maybe that was the kind of the natural end to the cycle.

And then you remember that actually, as kind of boring as the performances were, we did get to a final in the summer.

And even though I was mightily impressed by us, I did think it was interesting that in the first 10 minutes, Ireland had two very good chances to take the lead, particularly one of the back posts from the set piece.

And

sorry, Barry, cover your ears, but there are going to be more stringent tests of England's defence in the future if we're going to play like this.

Where, yes, the vibes might be better, the football might be better, but actually, in terms of getting results, you know, is it going to be harder to pick those up?

So,

yeah, it was really good.

I also just absolutely love the fact that we saw a midfield three when the teams came out.

I think the expectation was that it was going to be, you know, Rice and Mainu sitting with Grealish playing almost as a 10, but it was a 4-3-3, and Grealish played on the left-hand side of the three, and Declan Rice playing on the right-hand side of the three, which is something we've never seen him do before, with Mainu as the essential midfielder.

Grealish hasn't played left side of a midfield three, I don't think, since he played Effa Villa in 2018-19 in their promotion season out of the championship, where he was probably the best player we've seen, or one of the best players we've seen in the championship in the last 10 years.

Carsley showing that he is someone who,

unlike Southgate, who when he first came in said, I'm going to pick players on a form.

I think Carsley's saying, I have my vision of how things work.

I have my vision of how players play and I'm going to pick them according to that rather than what's going on at club level.

The interesting thing, Barry, is we can't read too much into England beating Ireland.

We probably can't read too much into England beating all the teams that...

Lee Carsley will play.

And so we'll only read something into it if England don't win.

And if they just win all the games which they're expected to, he will get the job

only playing games that we can't read anything into.

Yeah, it's a kind of bit of a corner the FA have painted themselves into because

if England win all these games under Karsley, you know, while he's in interim charge, which they should, they kind of have to give him the job, really, don't they?

They can't really justify not giving it to him.

But we I think

he in this role is experiencing things that he's never had to experience before i mean it was quite the quaint and cute sight of him putting out the cones before the game for the the the pre-match warm-up and all that the drills and uh you know that is not something you would expect him to do he he would delegate that to one a minion one of his coaching staff but but he was quite happy to do it himself because he said look every minute i get to spend with the players is is beneficial and then he has to deal with the media and the media scrutiny.

He's we'll get to you know the nonsense that England managers have to deal with.

And I don't think he put a foot wrong really over the the weekend as far as um contrary to what what some people might say, I think he handled everything very well.

He's admitted himself he's not entirely comfortable doing the media side of the job, but that is a big part of the job.

But he's quite got quite a dry sense of humour.

He seems to take everything in his stride.

um you know the the temptation to eye roll and be sarcastic at some of the questions he was asked before the game must have been huge but he he didn't do that i think the oh the only foot foot he put wrong is when he went to the wrong dugout after

um yeah and then even you know uh made light of that by saying well i've spent a lot of that time on that bench i know where i know exactly where it is so it's no wonder i was drawn to it yeah or he will only knock at the job one imagines, if England mess up in these games.

And I can't see that happening, to be honest, because they're so much better than the other teams in the group.

And actually, I think his kind of honesty about, you know, saying that he, you know, was nervous and didn't feel ready and feels better is actually quite disarming.

It's actually a really clever way.

It's very honest, but it's a very clever way of doing it as well.

Brummy says, did the panel think Gomez's cameo was good?

Is he the long-term solution to England's central midfield?

I've seen short players before, Robin, but I don't know if you ever did this, but I think it was on Pro Evo when you could like make players big or small, and you'd be fun if you made one player as tiny as possible.

And it looked like they'd done like that 2008 Provo, but he did look, and I know, like, of all the times to come into a game when it's just tippy-tappy, you know, look good on the ball, deep, but he did, like, it felt nice.

No, I mean, that whether he's the long-term solution, I'm not sure, but I think George's point that

he played sort of Declan Rice more in the sort of role that he plays for Arsenal and even Cobby Maine.

Like,

is he a really, really a sitter?

I mean, he can do it, certainly, but

England still really don't have that player.

So, if he is that player, I think he will get as possibly some of the reason why he was called up.

Obviously, he deserved it, but a bit light in that area.

So, if he can do it,

you don't need to make your player seven foot.

I used to do that too.

That was funny.

Yeah.

You know, in that area

for that to work effectively.

So it's all good.

I just wanted to pick up on what Barry said about getting a minion to do the cones.

I would absolutely love him.

If Lee Carls, I always had a lot.

I have a lot of respect for him already from how he's conducted himself.

But if he got on those yellow minions and speaking the beat about the cones.

To do that.

It would have just shot up.

I mean, that would be incredible, wouldn't it?

But actually, him doing the coaching, George, that is refreshing in itself.

I mean, I feel like I'm getting carried away in some sort of classic England thing he's had 45 good minutes but like as Barry said it's like getting everything right and doing it in the way that he wants to do it and saying well this is how I want to do it and if you give me the job that's how I'm going to do it and part of that of you know being in a track suit getting out there and doing what a coach does because he says that's my greatest ability and that's been very clear in his in his coaching career so far like it's it's interesting to note that for a period he was caretaker manager at Brentford before Thomas Frank came in when they were a championship club and he basically came out of that time and said I don't want the job, basically, because I don't want to be in the limelight.

So, to go away from

to not want the job in the championship at Brentford because you don't want to be in the limelight, and then suddenly having

your singing decisions plastered all over the front and back pages a couple of days later, is you know, it's it's not even out of the frying pan into the fire, it's kind of out of a completely

you know, situation where there's no pressure whatsoever into the fire.

But he, you know, he is a coach, and that's what's different, I think, with Southgate, who it felt like Southgate's biggest skill, his biggest strength, was managing the culture and managing the media and managing the fan base and kind of delivering in and bringing in a coaching culture that would improve players, but also an environment in which players wanted to play.

And in Carsley, it feels like there's now the coach to come into that environment and to actually, you know, make the players or turn this unit into a better footballing team.

As you say, it's one game against Ireland.

There's still every chance that the FA have their sights on bigger fish, whether in the course of next year or maybe even next summer at the end end of the Premier League season.

But he's made a very good start.

And I personally, as an England fan, if I woke up to news this morning that he'd been given the job full-time right now, I think it would be met with widely with appreciation that this is a natural, a good fit, and someone who can continue to progress the site going forward.

The only concern is, I think they said on commentary that he's the first tracksuit coach since Kevin Keegan.

Which

he is different to Kevin Keegan.

Very.

Just in a good stead.

Yeah, yeah, true.

Here we go then.

Beat the first man says, not a question, just a request.

Can you put a time stamp on the inevitable singing that song discussion so we can skip past it?

The lunatic fringe don't deserve the oxygen.

Keith says, does the panel think that Lee Carsley is actually just a musical purist and would gladly sing the national anthem if it wasn't so shit?

I mean, it is mad, Barry, isn't it?

It's sort of, at the first I saw of it was Jason Burt in the Telegraph, which I was slightly surprised because he's a bright, nice guy.

And then Jeff Powell, I was less surprised in the mail, said he should be sacked.

And then Jomie O'Hara said, that to me is okay.

See you later then.

You've just lost the entire nation before you've even kicked a ball.

Thanks for coming, Lee.

14 St.

George's Cross emojis.

Hashtag England.

And we're not sure if we should discuss it at all.

But Carsley was asked about it, you know, and I guess this is how culture wars work.

Mad people on the right say stupid stuff, then woke people like us laugh at them, and the story carries on.

Yeah, see also the taking the knee controversy, the woke rainbow badge on the back collar of the kit.

And this is the same thing.

If Karsley doesn't want to sing the British national anthem, that's grand.

If he says he didn't sing the Irish national anthem, I can't say I ever noticed because I don't care whether he sang it or not.

I was at the

opening day of the first cricket test between or the last cricket test between England and Sri Lanka at the Oval on Friday.

Everyone in the crowd was asked to stand for the national anthems of both teams.

I stood.

I didn't sing either of them.

I know one.

I don't know the other.

It is your party piece.

Knowing the Sri Lankan national anthem is your party piece.

I know that.

You're going to play us out with that, Barry.

I just find the whole thing absurd.

But it's like you say, yeah, some the lunatic fringe on the right get very exercised about these totally inconsequential matters.

And

I just don't.

I don't care.

I suppose everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Before we started recording, I was listening to Simon Jordan on Talksport.

He thought Lee Carsley should have sung the British national anthem.

Martin Keown thought he had every right not to.

I'm more inclined to agree with Martin Keown because his family is largely Irish.

His dad came over to work in England during the 1940s.

I'm an Irishman.

I have lived more of my life in England than I have in Ireland now at this point.

I'm not going to take, you know,

tug my forelock to the king.

I think the British national anthem is a bit forelock tuggy.

And then the Irish ones,

which is sung in Gaelga or Gaelic, so no one...

outside of Ireland knows what it means.

That's quite violent.

You know, it's all guns, bullets, shooting the Brits, blah, blah, blah.

But my answer is: I don't care whether Lee Carsley sings the Irish anthem, the English anthem, both anthems.

He can do what he likes.

I don't care.

George, Robin, have you got any strong thoughts?

Yes.

George?

I couldn't agree more with Barry.

Like, I think it's, I can't, you know, we talk about Ballet being the fringe, but the issue was it wasn't really the fringe.

The issue seemed to start with a couple of very prominent journalists.

plastering all over the front and back pages of major newspapers, which I just found crazy.

Like, especially they, and the Telegraph piece from Jason Burke, like, why a comment piece, an opinion piece is presented as fact on the front page of a sports segment of a newspaper, I think, is bizarre.

It's not news, it's someone's opinion that you're spinning into a piece just to deliberately stick the fire under a certain element of society.

I think Lee Carzerly is completely within his right to behave however he wants.

Normally, people on this side of the argument talk about the need for free speech and other things, but they seem pretty intent on policing whether or not someone gets up and sings a song or not.

Like, it seems absolutely crazy to me.

And also, the fact is, you know, if

given that he was a player for Ireland, for the Republic of Ireland in his career, if he'd sung the Irish national anthem throughout his career, if he'd sung the British national anthem on the touchline for the other 21s, and then chose in this occasion not to do it,

I still wouldn't have a problem.

I think most people wouldn't, but I could then kind of understand why that would be seen as a lack of respect in one circumstance.

But that isn't the case.

His behaviour is entirely consistent with his whole life

by the sounds of things.

It would have been absolutely insane if he'd stood there and suddenly decided to sing in this one occasion, having never done it before.

It is like, you know, when he doesn't sing at Wembley tomorrow night, is he suddenly

taking sides with the Finns and whatever's going on over there?

Like, it's absolutely bizarre.

And

in my mind, it's just a very clear way of certain people putting their hands up and saying,

I'm a nutter.

I tell you what, the return game against England at Wembley is a week after Remembrance Sunday, so we're going to have it all again.

Oh, God.

Why isn't he wearing a poppy?

Why is he wearing a poppy?

Oh,

so we've that to look forward to.

I just found it, I found it really sad because he was asked about it afterwards on Five Live, and he just said...

Well, he found it bizarre, the coverage, but he just said, I'm so proud to be England manager.

I'm so proud.

This really means a lot to me.

It's kind of irrelevant.

And yeah, I just agree with both of what George and Barry said, but I do think it's not quite as insidious or sinister as the commentary on taking the knee, but it's kind of in the ballpark, isn't it?

Of like just sections of the media stirring up and kind of this sort of debate about patriotism that is actually irrelevant and actually probably at worst, actually quite dangerous.

You know, it sparks a lot of...

So, yeah,

my first instinct is to laugh at it, but I just think it's, yeah, it

can be quite sinister, all of this.

the one thing I would say is it's probably beneficial for him that this came up because he handled it very well.

He did it, he hasn't come out of it badly, unless you're not.

But this is this is the thing, he, yeah, I'm sure he's aware, but as the England manager, you're going to be asked about literally everything, like current affairs, aren't you?

And if he didn't know, I'm sure he knew that, but he definitely knows it now.

You're going to be asked about, I mean, if like a,

I think, um, like Arsen Venge was asked about David Bowie when he died.

You know, it's just

like this part of the job.

You can understand why he said no thanks, you know, to start with.

I was on Talksbook when David Bowie died, and the British Horse Foundation tweeted a picture of a horse with the Ziggy Stardust, you know, lightning fault as like respect to David Bowie.

It's like that's what he would have wanted.

Sorry, had they painted the lightning bolt on the horse, or was it just a natural

flash?

No, no, it was there.

They'd painted it on the horse.

I mean, I don't know know if they i think it might have been photoshop rather than actually finding a horse suddenly getting

a horse

no no no no no it was natural one it was like it was like it was you know it was it was very much looked like david bowie as a horse but like seemed unnecessary to me could could i mean my suggestion would be just to can we just reappoint gare southgate as as manager but only for media duties and then he can just come out and do all the nice he can do all the nice things he can be in his waistcoat singing the national anthem he can give the big cheers to the to the to the fans afterwards but then lee carsly can do every part of being a football coach then everyone's happy although yeah although carrots arthgate sometimes wasn't the most popular with that section of society either so that's a good point anyway uh we'll see what happens uh that'll do for part one you and murray joins us uh live from heathrow airport in part two

it's third down

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's do some Fitball.

Ewan Murray is at Terminal 5 at Heathrow Airport.

Are you at the Pret, Ewan?

Where are you?

The Pret is within view of where I am.

No, I'm wondering about the kind of middle of no man's land because it's the quietest spot I could find.

So

it's a very busy Terminal 5 this morning, as one would expect.

We've got you loud and clear.

So look, Scotland followed up 97th minute defeat at home to Poland with an 88th minute Ronaldo winner in Portugal.

They've conceded in the 85th minute or later in five of their last six games.

And yet, I feel there are reasons to be positive in these two performances.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that.

I think that's true.

I think they didn't deserve to lose to Poland.

I think they played well in spells last night.

The problem is, there's a bigger picture thing here where you know they've won one game in 14.

The Euros was a massive disappointment in terms of

not the outcome, but their approach, in particular to the final game, to the Hungary game.

So there's an uneasy mood all of a sudden around the Scotland team and I've seen this before and you get a kind of sinking feeling when that happens.

Now in this case I think it's unfair because you know because of the progress under Steve Clark they're in the top top section of the Nations League.

That's why they're there because they've done well and it's going to be tough for them.

They're going to get punished for mistakes.

And I also think, and I bore even myself, never mind others with this point, but I think we lack a depth of talent,

you know, a big enough depth of talent that we can compete properly at the top level.

And I think for long enough, they punched above the weights, which is a sign of a good manager.

And that's that's sort of stopped happening.

And this is what we're seeing now.

So I agree with you, Max.

I think there was a lot of cause for encouragement the last two games, but the mood around the Scotland camp and team and environment suddenly has changed and it's a little bit gloomy.

Yeah, you're so right about being punished for mistakes, aren't they?

There's two DARF penalties against Poland.

Angus Gunn, who had a brilliant game against Portugal, but is at fault for definitely the the first goal.

Well, he,

yeah, I mean, I'm not convinced at all by Angus Garn, and

I'm maybe slightly sniffy because I think it took him long, it took him long enough to commit to Scotland in the first place.

I think he waited to see if he could play for England when that was a possibility when Scotland pursued him many years ago.

So, maybe I've got a downer on him anyway, but he doesn't at all convince me.

And he did, he had three very good saves, but this was after he threw in a goal.

He should have saved that goal.

So, to me, that's not good enough.

It's too erratic.

But again, you know, goes back to my core point: that he's part of a batch of players who are not that great.

I mean, he's a to me, he is a mid-ranking championship goalkeeper.

And Scotland have quite a few

mid-ranking championship players in their team.

And I'm not sure how much you can expect a team of that ilk to do in the highest level of international football.

You need in your preview of the Poland game or these two games, you sort of said that there was a lot of anger in Scotland after the Euros, and that some people want Clark out, some people think he's doing the best he can with the

players he has, some of whom are really good, and then others who aren't really up to it.

So, if they were to get rid of him, is there someone an obvious candidate to step in?

David Moyes, yeah, I would say, is the obvious candidate, and actually

the kind of background factors are: the longer David Moyes is out of work and available, that will rise as an issue, I think.

Listen, Clark is suffering from a few things.

One,

that Hungary performance and Scotland's lack of ambition in that game against Hungary in the Euros was

if he's not careful, that'll be a defining moment because people were angered by that.

They were angered that Scotland didn't have a go, didn't try to win the game till far too late in the game.

And that kind of offended people.

It was quite interesting, actually.

And also, he's been, I mean, that's what five years I think now he's been in the job.

A little bit of familiarity, breathing contempt.

People have kind of had enough.

And listen, I'm a you guys know, I'm a huge supporter and defender of Steve Clark.

I think he's done a really good job.

We've qualified for two tournaments out of the last three.

That was unthinkable before he took office.

I think he has raised the bar and raised standards.

But within that,

people are grumbling.

It's clear that people are grumbling.

And there's quite a few background issues all combining to make this sense that, yeah, there's an uneasy mood around the Scotland team.

And

to be honest, I don't know know how that gets better because the Nations League fixtures are going to be harsh on them in October and November.

I think they've played what was the easiest fixture at home to Poland.

They didn't win that.

They go to Croatia, Portugal at home, Poland away.

It's going to be difficult.

So they've kind of got to, I think what Steve Clark had to do is cling on, and then we get this World Cup draw in December, I think it is.

Hopefully, we got a favourable draw there, and the World Cup looks like a legitimate target, but he's got to get to that point without significant damage in the rest of the Nations League.

And does Moyes want the job?

And would fans want Moyes?

I just think Moyes is the best option.

I think he would now want the job.

He's quite interested.

I mean, he has been linked with the Scotland job routinely through his career.

And to be fair to him, he's never said this, but the impression always was he regarded himself as an English Premier League manager.

He wanted to manage Scotland, but at a point that he chose on his own terms.

And I think that point is now.

That's the general feeling that he would do it at this point.

I'm not sure what else he's going to do.

But of course, in the meantime,

he could get some multi-million pound offer to go and manage anywhere else.

And when he takes that job, the Scotland thing's off the table, and all of a sudden, there is no obvious Scotland candidate or manager at all because beyond him, I don't think there is currently.

And listen, we're going, you know, I'm stepping forward, and it's unfair on Steve.

Of course, yeah.

It's unfair, it's unfair on Steve Clark, but you cannot ignore it.

I've been around it, I've seen it, I've felt it.

You cannot ignore there's a

kind of fidgeting, there's an unease around what's happening with Scotland just now.

Yeah, it is unfair on Steve Clark, isn't he?

Because you know, expectations change when you beat Spain.

You beat Spain, and suddenly goes, Oh, we can beat Spain.

And, you know, he got Scotland promoted.

So, when you're playing, you're playing Portugal, and you look at Portugal's side, right?

And they're so they are just littered with talent.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that Spain game was the high point.

I mean, Spain haven't lost a game since.

That was the last game they lost.

They totally changed their team, brought the younger players in.

And Scotland,

you could argue Scotland peaked that night.

And by the time they got to the Euros, a lot of things had happened.

There were injuries.

They were off form.

And the more you look at it, you think that Spain night was a high point for this team.

And it's kind of dwindled since.

And my overriding worry, and I refer to this a lot, is I don't think there's nearly enough in backup and coming through in terms of younger players that can supplement the team when

the current batch of senior players.

And they don't always.

they're not always going to perform well all the time but when they don't do that i think the team has a problem and mctomany you know, it's helped him, but he, I thought he was very good in both games, actually.

And he's back to scoring goals for Scotland, which is so important for this team.

But if you, if, if you take that out, and that can happen, if he's injured or off-form,

suddenly the week, the week's very, very limited.

And that's not Steve Clark's fault.

No, I mean, and actually, that is a really broad question, isn't it?

About the quality of what grassroots football in Scotland, the quality of the league.

I mean,

I don't know how much time you have at Terminal 5, but

there's no quick fix to that, is there?

No,

my point is that when the team was doing well, you know, I have made this point, I'll probably laboured this point.

I think there wasn't enough attention on

the Scottish Premier League, is the core thing you look at.

I think the standard of the league is very poor.

The lack of game time for under 23 or under 21 Scottish players is striking, really, really bad, really damning.

And when the national team is doing well, that's when they should have looked at this and thought, right, hang on a minute, you know, at this at this peak, at this high point,

what's next?

how do we progress and i fear not only is it not going to progress but it could get worse i mean we're we're pinning so many hopes on ben doak who who might turn out to be a fantastic player but you know he's got he's now gone on loan to middlesbrough he's in such limited first team exposure we don't know at this point what path his career is going to take and but this is what we have to do we have to cling to players like that because there's not enough generally in Scotland coming through to give us confidence about a bright future.

And actually, I think Steve Clark won't feel that, but his successor, David Moyes, or anyone else, will feel the impact of that.

You know, I look at other leagues across Europe where there is

a dedicated pathway and deliberate approach to playing young players from that country.

I'm not going all Enoch Powell about it.

We can't have foreign players in the league, but I think there's not nearly enough done, including by the biggest clubs, to promote young Scottish boys to the point where they get a lot of first-team football and then are capable of playing in the national team and stepping forward.

I think there is a big issue there abroad.

You need a McGeorge's park, don't you?

That's, you know,

that could find, you could find some young talent there.

Well, to me, to me, there's one of two issues, and I don't know the answer.

Either we are not producing good enough young footballers, and if that's the case, well, we have to establish why, or

the problem is that the clubs, the premiership clubs, are not doing nearly enough

to play these guys, which is, I would fall on the side of that.

But I don't know, but either one of them is unacceptable.

And as I said, when the national team team is doing well and qualifying for these you know back-to-back euros that's when it should have been looked at and thought right how do we how do we build on this how do we and and you build on that by making sure that the young scottish footballers have a pathway and can progress and i and i you know i watch a lot of it i genuinely worry that that pathway doesn't exist and i think that's going to harm the national team until you know unless they can keep as they did punching above their weight

unless they can keep doing that it's going to become a big big problem and and then you know we'd go back into years of wilderness and not qualifying for tournaments.

Sorry, I feel every time I come on here, it's all grim and depressed.

Like, there's nothing upbeat to talk about.

Is there anything upbeat?

There must be something because I was about to move on to the crisis at Rangers.

So that isn't upbeat, is it?

No, no, no.

I suppose it's upbeat for Celtic.

You can throw it and spin it that way.

That's true.

I mean,

what is happening at Ibrox?

Basically,

they are a very distant second to Celtic.

And there are two issues there.

One, Celtic are so strong, including financially, that Celtic would have to be pretty badly run and managed at present, not to be by far the best team in Scotland.

And they have a very good manager, and Brendan Rogers, they have a very good team.

So they are the best team in Scotland by a considerable distance.

Rangers are trying to rebuild of sorts under Philippe Clement.

I think even their own fans are unconvinced of the extent to which that can work.

But they don't really have any option but to stick with this manager and stick with this plan because they've chopped and changed enough over the last few years and it's cost them so much money and so much upheaval, they sort of have to stick with it for now.

And it's hard, you know, they find that so difficult because they're watching Celtics stride further and further away.

Champions League money, Champions League platform in terms of where they are.

It's a tough time for the Arangers fan, relatively speaking.

I mean, they're not Albion Rovers, but it doesn't sit well with them that they are such a distant second to Celtic.

Here's positive, though, the Champions League draw looks kind to Celtic, doesn't it?

And I guess given the travails they've had in the the the old group stages there must be a sort of positivity about something different might be different for them yes and to be fair to brendan rogers whom i've criticized for not placing enough stock in the champions league he's made this a key target for this season they want to make an impact they want to get into that playoff spot at least so he's identified that i think he realizes and hopefully the club realize there's a big bad world beyond Scotland where they should pay attention to now because they you know they dominate in Scotland and I think people to an extent, externally, shrug their shoulders at that.

So it's to Bender Rogers' credit that he's identified that.

Home to Spov and Bradis Lava to start, I think, is a good start for them.

You'd be confident they would win that game.

Then they go to Dortmund.

So I think, I mean, it's slightly an optics thing, but I think finish, Max, sorry, finishing bottom of that huge group would look worse, or near the bottom, would look worse than finishing bottom of one of the old tables.

Does that make sense?

So, they don't.

Yeah, because you're still only fourth, aren't you?

Exactly, exactly.

And you could be fourth with minus 20 of a gold difference, but you're still fourth.

But I think it would look a lot worse if they're at the kind of nether regions of the new format.

So, they're determined not to be.

And I think they've got a you're right, with that draw, they've got a decent chance.

I think they'll be competitive.

Whether they'll be in that middle section and

have another game, I'm not sure.

But I think they will be more competitive than they've been in recent years, and much more than they should be because it's been unacceptable how poor the European results have been for the last decade or so.

Thank you, Ewan.

Go and get yourself a Swedish meatball wrap or whatever you say, or the mac and cheese, the cauliflower mac and cheese, whatever you desire.

Thank you.

I'll shout to you soon.

Cheers, you're Murray there, our Scottish football correspondent.

Actually, she makes quite a good point about the Champions League that I hadn't thought of, that, you know, some teams will finish 28th.

And, you know, people are like, that is terrible.

You can't finish 33rd in a league.

What a disaster.

Briefly, Barry, do we owe Ronaldo an apology?

Because we were very much like, come on, he's no use anymore.

And he did score score another goal, and he's scored really loads of them.

I don't think I owe him an apology.

I don't think he should be in the Portugal squad.

I think it's time for him to step aside, stop making everything about him,

and

let this very talented group of players get on with it.

I mean,

he was clearly detrimental to their performances at the Euros.

Yeah, you do get the feeling that he does.

His way of thinking is, how does this affect me?

Don't you?

You feel that with

Renelle.

Although.

Anyway, but the thing is, if you know, getting rid of me is a lot easier than getting rid of Renelle.

I don't think it is.

You're still pulling the strings.

That'll do for part two, back in a second.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Jordan says, morning all.

This is the most excited I've been to listen into Football Weekly for a long time.

Excited for the Wales debrief in the third part of the show.

Intrigued to see if now officially Showbiz's Ellis James still provides a voice note after his Hollywood wedding party, which was exclusive enough to get Barry's attendance.

Sorry, Max.

Optimistic to hear the group enthuse on all the positive changes Craig Bellamy has implemented within his one week in charge of the camp.

The inevitable comparisons with Carsley will crop up, but just looking at the sideline attire to get a true understanding of where Welsh football is going.

They were good, Barry, weren't they, Wales?

Yes, a little, little draw, but an awful lot of positives to take out of them.

I think they were the moral victors of this scoreless draw over Turkey.

Twice as many passes, twice as many touches, 70% possession, I think, way more shots on goal.

And

yeah, they need a striker.

That'd be my one thing I might take out of the game.

They had Aaron Ramsey playing as a false nine, But Craig Bellamy, I thought, spoke very well when he got the job, spoke very well in the build-up to this game, and spoke very well after it.

He said that that's the worst you'll see us play if he's right.

I don't think he is right, or I suspect he won't be right.

But if he is right, then Wales fans have every right to be very excited.

I think nine of this starting eleven played in the playoff against Poland, where they were very poor for the Euros and lost on penalties.

Brennan Johnson, Sorber Thomas, I thought, were good.

I think I said on Thursday, Robert Page did a good job with Wales, but it was time for someone new.

And

Bellamy really injected a bit of pizzazz into the team.

I don't think we have a voice note from our Welsh correspondent, but I'd imagine he was very pleased with that.

I know he was at it or he was going to it.

I haven't messaged it.

I was saving it for Wednesday.

Get both games in Corellis.

But, you know, maybe he will.

Maybe he he won't.

We'll have to wait and see.

George, any strong thoughts on wells.

I know quite a few of those players have spent a lot of time in the EFL.

Very strong thoughts as to why Mark Harris isn't able to get on the pitch when they need a striker, as I'm sure Robin would agree.

Oxford striker, who started the season incredibly well with four goals and four, sat on the bench.

Only Erling Harland scored more league goals in 2024, Mark Harris of Oxford United.

Would you know that me and Robin do an Oxford podcast every Monday morning together?

But apart from that, I mean, it's exciting.

You know, Benny's someone who,

for all the bad press that that Bernie side got last season,

he obviously played a big part in curating a very, very good championship side the year before with Vincent Company.

And Connor Roberts was

very good on the day, which is no surprise given he'd have worked with Benamy before.

So, you know, in the same kind of way as Carsley, I think, you know, very, very early signs, but the early signs are good.

And you think if the early signs are good, then things will only improve.

I could never take Rob Page seriously because I remember when he managed Northampton, I did his

NFA Cup game in which Northampton were knocked out by Stourbridge at Stourbridge.

And that's just my part of him

scarred me.

And I was like, how is this guy managing

when he couldn't get past the non-league team in the FA Cup?

I mean, also, just it's exciting, isn't it?

And Craig Bellamy, I think, you know, he's a bit of a figure of fun, I think, you know, because of his antics.

But I actually saw a clip today or yesterday because it's, I think it's Gary Speed's birthday or anniversary of his death, and he spoke very movingly about, and that's that's kind of, it all started with him, didn't it?

The sort of Wales revolution, the success.

They've obviously had a few bumps in the row, but he just spoke very movingly about how he

wants to carry that on.

So, you know, he's, yes, as a player, perhaps we kind of judged him a bit, but he's clearly got a little bit more to him.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, it's interesting what 20 years does to humans, right?

It's like, you know, he's an older guy.

Might have grown up.

Northern Ireland beat Luxembourg 2-0.

They lost 1-0 to Bulgaria.

As a lower league fan, as

all of you will know, something weird seeing one of your players, players watching the highlights, going, what's Shane Lavery doing?

Oh, he's up front for Northern Ireland.

He's missed a one-on-one.

It's been saved by Dimitar Mitov, who used to play for us.

I know this is only interesting to me, but I was really like, wow, this is extraordinary.

But that's why there's no Cambridge game this weekend, right?

Exactly.

Match postponed for international call-outs, which means we didn't lose, which is great uh jim does say what do you reckon the crop yield is from the pitch that northern ireland played bulgaria on yeah there were some patchy uh uh parts to it um george you volunteered to say something about northern ireland well firstly yeah i mean i was i was going to say uh shane lavery had the best chance of the game which you kind of mentioned there with the one-on-one after going one-nil down um Bailey Peacock Farrell made a a bit of a clanger.

It's not his first clanger.

It's not his first clanger of the season.

He was passing out for the back and the ball was intercepted by the Bulgarian player who squared it.

That was after Bulgaria had already gone close with a shot hitting the woodwork and missing a kind of from a goal master scramble early on.

So Northern Ireland put in a really good performance at home in Luxembourg where they won 2-0 and you know, in fairness, going to Bulgaria is obviously a difficult game for them and they acquitted themselves pretty well.

Laverie came on for Dion Charles and had that good chance.

So frustration, I guess they didn't get anything out of the game, but not the worst week's work for them so far.

Dave says, would Barry like to discuss the giant win for San Marino against Lichtenstein?

The goal scorer wasn't even born the last time they won a competitive game of football in 2004 against Lichtenstein.

Paul Watson was there.

He is on the pod on Wednesday to tell us all about it.

Should we keep our powder dry until then, Barry?

Well, I certainly don't have much to say about it.

I'm aware it's happened, if that's all.

And well done, then.

Yeah, we'll get a full report on Wednesday.

Only other things I noticed was Luka Modrich scoring a beautiful free kick.

Very similar to the free kick that Wayne Rooney scored for Man United Legends in some sort of charity game, just like bending one of the top corner.

It was still, I mean, great to see how happy they both were.

How old is Wayne Rooney?

Is he younger?

He must be 40.

He's younger than Christiana.

Luka Modric is 39 today.

Wayne Rooney is 38.

He's 39 October.

Wow, that's amazing, isn't it?

Just shows all shapes and sizes.

You can still bend one in the top corner.

They both look delighted.

So, you know.

Good news for middle-aged men there.

Chelsea, Jim says, can Chelsea's transfer policy now be likened to parents on the brink of divorce, lavishing their child with ever more extravagant gifts in an attempt to buy their love and assure them that nothing is wrong?

Jacob writing in the paper claims that the club's owners do not see eye-to-eye gain momentum.

It's understood that Todd Boley is confident that investors are ready to provide him with the sufficient capital to complete a full takeover.

There have been strong denials that the American billionaire is hoping to sell his 38.5% stake, which is split equally between him, Hans-Jörg Wies, and Mark Walter.

But Clear Lake Capital, which is owned by Begdad Egbali and Jose E.

Felicianos, say that it has absolutely no need, desire, or plan to sell any of its shares, 61.5%,

to Boli or any other party.

Clear Lake sees its ownership of Chelsea as a decades-long investment and is prepared to explore buying out Boli.

It is very a mess.

An unsurprising one.

It is, I suppose, and it isn't.

I mean, I thought we could have one week without having to talk about Chelsea because I'm

plotted sick of it, to be honest.

I can't be the only one.

I saw someone reply to your tweet about any questions, Max, talking about this, because they both want to buy each other out.

It's that they should fight.

And I'm like, they will do this.

It will be like a YouTuber-style fight.

I can see Chelsea would be like, oh, that's a good idea.

I think they'd be well up for it.

From the undercard to Logan

fighting Tommy Fury,

high-energy podcaster or something.

Oh, God.

Yes.

I mean, we spoke to Simon Johnson from the athletic, didn't we, yesterday?

And he, you know, he's the Chelsea correspondent.

You just think, oh, international break, finally.

I can have a couple of days and then this happens.

But anyway.

But I mean,

if they're not getting on, okay, that's grand.

That that happens.

But if Clear Lake don't want to sell and Bowley,

then they don't have to surely I mean I'm I don't I'm not really off fait with this kind of you know big business and how it works but if I have something which you want to buy and I don't want to sell it and I don't need to sell it then I'm not going to sell it and surely it's that simple what do you think of your possessions what of your possessions do you have that you think I secretly covet

I have I have a Monet original here Max which I'm sure you'd wow by me.

You're doing all right.

Are you the talented Mr.

Ripley?

Did you nick that someone's life and it just happened to come with you?

Claude Monet in your apartment.

How exciting.

Dale says, seeing as you have two Oxford fans on.

Sorry, can we just be clear?

I don't have a Monet original in my house.

So if there are any art teams listening, please don't come and...

I hate to let you down.

I really thought it would be evident that you don't.

I didn't think that there is anybody listening going, oh, wow, the Guardian is suddenly paying, you know, eight and a half million at auction.

Barry's on a phone auction.

What did he do yesterday?

I'm a single man, Max, with no dependence.

I've got a bit of disposable income sloshing around.

If you're going to buy a monet, just give it to my son, please.

You know, he is more deserving.

Anyway, do you want to do some Oxford chat, some EFL chat?

We should do that, shouldn't we?

I mean, obviously, not a lot of games, George, at the weekend because of the internationals, but you know, enough for Wrexham to have a good win.

Yeah, big win for Wrexham.

They've started life in League One really well, really impressively.

They faced Shrewsbury Town at home, who are local rivals.

And I think for Shrewsbury, it's probably pretty galling to see Wrexham flying up the leagues while Shrewsbury currently favourites relegation out of League One.

Paul Mullen missed the start of the season through injury, and Jap Marriott and Ollie Palmer and Elliot Lee, the three goalscorers on Saturday, are playing so well that Mullen can't even get in.

So that was pretty impressive.

But the game I watched on Saturday was, I'm sure you all would have seen it.

I basically almost deliberately chose the game that I thought would be the most boring to watch for a perverse reason to write a piece on for our website.

And like Barrow versus Swindon just screamed nil-nil at me, like scream nil-nil.

And

I missed the first five minutes due to a five-live slot at three o'clock.

And when I turned on the TV, the commentator said, After an amazing start to the game, it's already really hit a lull.

And I was like, brilliant.

I've already missed the good part of this game.

We're only five minutes in.

And then it transpired to be one of the most insane games of football I've ever watched.

Um, where

firstly, which has been completely lost, Jared Gardner for

Barrow scored one of the most audacious chips I think I've ever seen, where he picked the ball up on the left-hand channel, like basically facing away from gold, and somehow managed to love the keeper and put it to the far corner.

Did he mean that?

Do we mean that?

I think so.

I think there's no one to cross it to.

Like, it's a bizarre goal.

I've seen League Two players cross it to no one many times.

Yeah, that's a good point.

But then it just turned into absolute carnage where the barrow keeper, Paul Farman, was caught playing up from the back, and the spinning man shot from near halfway.

And he was, you know, Farman was 40 yards out from goal.

And he, it's one of the most incredible saves I've ever seen because he tips it with his hand deliberately.

And the ball then bounces over the bar.

So it doesn't even go in, but he's given a straight red card for

the offence.

Rory Feely.

I love how much he complained about

his widget.

Rory Thiele came in, came on for him, who seemingly comes from a family of Gaelic footballers, who himself has played a lot of Gaelic football.

So it made sense in terms of the outfield player coming on, nominally a right-sided centre-back or a right-back.

And what transpired was one of this bizarre thing where Swindon were playing 11v10.

They're 1-0 down.

This was from about the 35th minute.

And they didn't test...

the defender in goal until the hour mark, which was a direct free kick, which he expertly tipped around the post.

And then from the resulting corner, before the corner was even taken, Harry Smith, the Swindon striker, just decided off the ball just to throw his, he's six foot seven, I think, just to throw his elbow into Isaac Pricell's face.

Completely off the ball, completely uncalled for, and was shown a straight red card.

So having played for the best part of half an hour, 10v11, suddenly it was 10v10.

And they still really struggled to

test Feely and goal until the 98th minute.

when Butterworth, the centre-midfielder for Swindon, just clearly thought, you know what?

I'm going to have a go here.

And he shot from 35 yards.

And the ball squirmed under Feely's body and went in to make it one-all.

Oh, no.

And you're just sitting there watching it thinking, well, firstly, those sitting there watching it thinking,

why haven't you done this more often?

Why haven't you shot more?

For me, going back to a conversation we had earlier, having sat through this whole ridiculous farce at 97 minutes with eight minutes added on and the ball getting nowhere near either goal, I got a text from someone saying, go on, Lee, which I think was referencing the fact that he wasn't singing a national anthem.

So I decided to turn over from the game that I've been watching to watch the Kazi not sing the national anthem and therefore miss the car

in the game.

So it was an absolute catalogue of errors from all of us.

That's amazing.

There's some excellent non-league.

Have you all seen this clip?

I put it in the WhatsApp group of Folkestone Invictors Tom Derry.

So they're playing Billy Ricky Town.

I think Billy Ricky Town have a player injured in the box.

I can't work out if a penalty has been awarded.

It looks like that because Tom Derry wants the ball and a goalkeeper and one of the other players from Billy Ricky are just doing keepy-ups over.

Sort of like Piggy in the middle, and they're just kicking it over his head.

And he gets so annoyed that he runs into the keeper and basically two-foots him and gets a red card.

It's like absolutely amazing moment.

Apparently, he was once voted Britain's sexiest footballer.

And then after he two-footed him, he picked up the ball and just booted it as far as he could in a kind of total red mist.

That's well, go and I did tweet it out.

It's definitely worth having a look at that.

Well, that's pretty much everything for today.

Can I just congratulate Riversdale FC Barry who beat us, the University of Melbourne Bohemians in the grand final of Metro North East Northwest.

We won the league, but we were aware there was that.

There was another game.

Failed to win the double.

Yeah, well, grand finals are not really football-y things, but they took it quite seriously.

We were missing a couple of players.

There was a big debate in the WhatsApp because it was an hour away.

Do we just go to the pub and say we've got a game?

but they were much better than us but uh there were i would say four or five dedicated pod listeners in there who certainly would not have been impressed with the 20 minutes that i played with quite a bruised ankle during that game um but many congratulations and they asked for a shout out they did then start messaging me last night i think while we were on the radio going can we face time i'm that that's a step too far I would say

was that were you Man City at the FA Cup final?

We've won the league.

So you've won the league.

We can't be asked.

And you can't be asked.

By the time when we got there, we could be asked.

And they were better than us.

It is worth pointing out.

But yes, well played.

That'll do for today.

Thank you so much, Robin.

Thanks, Max.

Thank you, George.

Thank you, Max.

Thanks, Barry.

Thank you.

Are you ready, Barry?

God

says,

anyway,

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.