Southgate’s super sub secures England’s spot in Euro 2024 final - Football Daily podcast

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

And we have been saying for this whole tournament that Gareth Southgate makes the right changes at the right time.

We'd all been calling for Ollie Watkins and there he was.

But seriously, what a moment for him.

Absolutely brilliant centre forward play from a man who's played 30 minutes at this tournament kane won a dubious penalty after Xavi Simmons put the Dutch up with a wonderful strike but England was so good in that first half Foden Belling and Mayne who all playing well the best they've been and then the second half it was the same as before England dropped deeper and deeper it felt like the goal was coming but Southgate brought on Cole Palmer and Ollie Watkins Palmer laid it into Watkins he turned and pinged it into the bottom corner and England are in the final of the Euros again oh man there's some other stuff to discuss I'm not really sure what we'll take your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

We are in person together at the Guardian HQ.

Lars Sivardson, welcome.

Hi, Max.

From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Barry Glendening.

Hello.

You alright?

Yeah, fine.

Good, good.

Before we get to the panel, Jacob Steinberg has sent us this report from Dortmund.

Well, that was pretty emotional and unexpected from England.

Although, obviously, at this point, given what they've done in the last couple of games, Jude Bellingham overhead kick, penalties, five nerdless penalties against Switzerland, which is all pretty un-English.

Maybe it's not so unexpected for them to just be winning games in this way.

Although, to be fair, I think that tonight against the Netherlands, this was probably their best performance of the tour.

And then, obviously, falling behind after seven minutes, mistake from Declan Rice, who sort of picked his head up after that brilliant goal from Javi Siemens.

Um, and it did feel like, although obviously, England were one-nil down, that they were actually at that point playing pretty well.

And I think they felt that they were able to hurt the Dutch defence.

And it was pretty quick, actually, that

they were back at them.

You know, Saka looked really dangerous at right-wing back, running at Ake.

Harry Kane looked much better than he has all tournament, and you know, gave the Vrian van Dijk a lot of problems.

And I think it was a penalty, we called it in the press box, me and

Jonathan Wilson.

I think that Dumfries captures him after he's had the shot.

So,

although it takes BAR, I think it was a penalty.

Maybe Holland will disagree.

And thankfully, Harry Kane with

his first penalty in the tournament since France.

You know, at that point, it kind of feels like England were going to run away with it.

Phil Foden, absolutely brilliant, almost scored two fantastic goals and probably having his best game in the tournament.

Cobby Mainu just so good on the ball I think this formation and the way that they're now playing with with the back three and back five the control that they that they have I think actually really

sort of gives Maynu more of a platform to shine it means that he's got actually a lot less to do even though he actually I think did a lot of his defensive work really well tonight and but then I think after the

you know after

Cooper makes the changes it just seemed like it was slipping away from England again it felt like in the second half with Beghorston and the Dutch more more compact, that things were kind of drifting, a lot of sideways passes.

Bellingham looked frustrated, he wasn't really doing much, he gets a booking.

But in the end, it turns out that Garra Southgate can make some in-game changes and substitutions because it's Cole Palmer and Ollie Watkins who came on for

Foden and Kane and a fantastic goal from Ollie Watkins.

And you know, I think that sums up this England team because

we've seen now in the last few games, you know, Ivan Tony 95th minute coming on against for his first tournament football against Slovakia makes the impact Trent Alexander Arnold scores the penalty

after coming on and having been dropped earlier in the tournament Eze left wing back Saka playing left wing back and tonight Ollie Watkins you know he hadn't played since the second game comes on for 10 minutes you know I spoke to him a few weeks ago before he played at all and he you know we sort of said to him you know harmonious job in football being Harry Kane's deputy and

you know, he's waited for his moment tonight.

And I think that sums up some of just the

culture, the resilience that's kind of instilled by Southgate.

So much of the

success down the years is down to that cultural shift.

And tonight, he gets his moment, Gareth, and it's fantastic to see it.

I don't think England will be favourites going into Sunday's game, but there's something about this team.

you know they've got so many weapons and uh

spain will probably pose kind of questions that they've

they've not been posed so far

in this tournament.

But I think it's

a fantastic final.

England will have a chance.

It'll be interesting against the

young-ish Spanish side in certain spaces whether England can get on top of them.

But that can all wait.

For tonight, it's England's first

final, reached the first final on foreign soil, which is a, you know,

for the people who

question Yarrow Southgate and have thrown beer cups at him and

everything else, I think it's maybe just another moment for them to think about the job that he's done for this team.

Sunday may well be the end, but it's been a fantastic journey and nobody

underestimate it.

Thank you, Jacob.

So to the questions then.

Glenn says, what time on Sunday are we inserting fireworks up our bums?

Paul says, how does Barry feel now that Gareth took his advice and took off Kane?

Damon says, inject the look on Barry's face into my veins.

Elliot, someone check on Baz.

Adam, is Barry still alive?

Jim, is Barry alive?

Rich says, I'd really like to hear how Barry's holiday plans are coming along.

Okay, then, Barry, how are you?

It's what?

He scored.

Ollie Watkins scored about 20 minutes ago.

There's video evidence of the look on my face.

Yes.

It was totally impassive.

I didn't react in the same way as I didn't react in any way when Xavi Simmons scored on the back of a Declan Rice mistake.

Oh, you did a chef's kiss.

I didn't do it.

There is actual video footage, Max.

So you can't make shit up on this occasion.

You sound a bit grumpy about the river dancing.

Yeah, I am grumpy.

You don't have to be grumpy.

You will get the daddy of all chef kisses when Spain hands the collective English arts to you on Sunday night.

It will just make it all the sweeter.

Shall we talk about Ollie Watkins, Lars?

It was a brilliant moment for him.

And I don't think anyone expected him to come on.

I think we were slightly surprised when he came on.

And he took that goal absolutely brilliantly.

No, I thought it was weird.

I said so many times in this room, for which there's also video evidence, slightly less compelling video evidence, but you know, it exists.

I thought it was a surprising sum because he hasn't been getting a lot of minutes in the game.

And I kind of thought more, well, the Dutch are seeding a lot of space on the flank, so maybe you just kind of put Ivantonio on there and fling a few crosses in, and it would have made more sense.

But no, it was a brilliant, brilliant finish.

And dare I say, it reminded me of a finish we've seen a younger Harry kane hit many times you know getting in behind there and hitting an arrow towards the bottom corner it was cane-esque it just happened much quicker and much sharper than what kane is physically capable of doing right now and absolutely brilliant and and for once mark you know it's the the changes that southkate made that he is criticized for so so often and so much and

you can only credit him for bringing on the two players who set up that goal yeah absolutely um you know palmer had already had a shot that went over the bar um a few moments earlier earlier.

So he was definitely impacting the game.

I think it was a difficult decision, really, in terms of who to take off.

I mean, Harry Kane has been struggling for fitness, so maybe that one was the more simple decision.

But the midfield had all played well, and so it was a tricky one.

Foden was the man that made way.

And Palmer made that difference.

And Watkins did stretch the defence.

I mean, they hadn't had that many touches before, but he didn't need it.

I thought it was an absolutely outstanding finish, and the celebrations at the end were tremendous for him.

You know, he's somebody that, as you say, Max, has had to wait in the wings really in this tournament.

He'll be frustrated at how little he's played, and it has probably been on the reputation

of Harry Kane that's meant that he's had to sort of sit there.

But you know, maybe this is payback for when Chris Waddell hit that post, the Italia 90, when Gaza's

toenal just didn't get it in Euro 96, that Sol Campbell goal in 98 that that was ruled out.

Really playing the hits now.

Yeah, so I, you know, we would do one.

Yeah, and I suppose for, you know, we hear a lot in these tournaments, Barry, about, you know, the personal stories of all these players.

And for Oddie Watkins, and I don't expect you to know every single club he's played for a way he started, but you know, for a guy that...

I know he started at Exeter.

Yeah, but like he wasn't an Academy and a Premier League side, right?

He's worked his way up through the pyramids.

And to get here to this moment for him, I mean, you can't imagine how he is feeling this second.

He's probably feeling the polar opposite of the way I'm feeling.

And I can only dream of enjoying such a feeling of ecstasy.

He's a terrific player.

I'm a huge admirer of his.

He's a real cold-eyed killer.

And that shot into the bottom corner, the far corner from

low diagonal, he just never seems to miss them.

And I get why he's not in the team.

And I get that he's almost certainly frustrated at the amount of time he's had on the pitch, but his introduction was uh critical in winning England the game and you know we saw tonight what happens when good players play well play quickly pass the ball quickly zip it around and

play with just real intent which is something that

England haven't been doing for much

for for long in this tournament and uh although in the second half things do get very stodgy and we were discussing here you know what changes southgate should make and on itv commentary ali mccoyst was saying last time they were discussing is he procrastinating again and he made the changes and yeah they worked i don't think this should preclude him from criticism from previous times when he's been really passive but he he

he uh did something proactive here and it paid off uh very handsomely but i think he should hopefully he will now but I think he should just get more respect overall.

I think there's often, not in this room, obviously, but amongst a lot of pundits, there's a very patronizing tone when people are talking about Gareth Southgate and the decisions he makes.

I get the sense that he's not really very respected amongst many of the punditocracy.

And

there have been previous games where people have gone, oh, make this change, make that change.

And in the end, it's been the guys he trusts who have gotten them out of trouble.

Like a lot of people,

not naming names, Max, wanted Bellingham substituted against Lorrackia.

Yeah, I still sort of stand by

ice cold takes and i don't actually think a lot of people wanted saka subbed against switzerland because he'd been so good in the first half but i mean people wanted changes and it is one of his guys who bailed him out there again so we're always very keen to give uh manager credit when he makes a sub and the guy who comes on the scores shouldn't we therefore also give him credit when he sticks with people and they actually come through for him which is what has been happening previously in the tournament i think salke has been getting so many things right in this tournament it's just the team doesn't always look the way you want them to they don't always play swashbuckling football.

But you may have noticed very few team at this tournament have done.

And in the semifinals, like none of the four teams in the semifinals got into double figures of shots in the game in the semifinals.

Like no one scored more than 10 shots in the semifinal in this tournament.

Like these games are cagey.

That's how they work out.

And I think Southgate, by being patient and keeping faith in his best guys, and then making little changes when the time obviously was right,

I think he deserves so much more credit than he's been getting.

Yeah.

I mean, I have been one of those people not giving him credit, certainly up to this point.

And I guess we sort of said, didn't we, Mark, that he didn't factor on all his players playing well.

And so it made the substitution slightly more difficult to make, didn't it?

But that second half, as Barry alluded to,

it did start to feel like the second half against Switzerland.

Yeah, the Dutch were on top, really, at the moment that Watkins scored his goal.

Quite ironic that having sort of made the change at half-time over on the left-hand side, that actually England started to play not as well as what they had done in the first half.

Did the Dutch change something?

Yeah, the Dutch did make things more difficult.

They went very narrow.

I think the

injury to Memphis enabled them to bring on an extra midfielder and then they packed out that area and it wasn't quite as easy for England to play through them.

But I do think that first half was the best I've seen England play for a long time because even coming into this tournament, it hadn't quite looked right.

And in that sort of opening 45 minutes, Fort Maynoux

was running the show really in sort of that deep-lying midfield position.

He was getting, as Barry alluded to, sort of that quick passes to Bellingham and Foden.

I thought Kane looked as lively as he has done throughout the whole tournament.

Carl Walker was playing almost two positions, really.

He was a centre-back at times and then a right-winger.

And it looked a lot better.

The second half became a slog.

I don't remember Pickford making too many sort of amazing saves, although it is quite difficult.

And I've got newfound respect for managers that have got a mic thrust into their gob sort of about two minutes after a game's finished because it can be difficult to sort of think about the game properly.

There was that free kick to the edge of the six-yard box where Big Virgil got on the end of the but it was kind of straight at big Virgil.

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't like an amazing opportunity, was it?

The Dutch had three shots in the entire second half and England had one.

So it was a cagey affair.

Especially as the offside goal as well, right?

Yes, which doesn't count on the stats, but that was a beautiful move, actually.

I just thought in some ways the game followed a very similar trajectory to the Switzerland game because England had a lot of joy in the first half through the middle.

The Dutch were too open,

similarly to the way they had a lot of joy down England's right flank, Switzerland's left flank.

And in both the cases, the opponents adjusted.

The Swiss brought Vargas deeper to sort of double up on Saka with Diabasher, and the Dutch moved in another midfielder.

Like they have been struggling for defensive cover in midfield with

the Weaver, his name is, who signed for Brighton.

He's injured.

Coop miners is injured.

Frankie Dean's not there.

So they've kind of lacked this.

Their midfield is basically a second choice midfield almost.

So I guess the solution, if you don't have the midfielders you want, just put on an extra, put on loads of midfielders.

Just have, yeah, go for quantity over quality.

But the eggs, you're bringing on Wehrmacht pack in the middle.

England kind of stopped creating chances and didn't have a counter move.

And like against Switzerland, they were eventually kind of bailed out by an incredible individual moment.

But that's not necessarily a strike against them because that is what so much of international football is.

We were saying in the second half that Southgate, the Netherlands have changed something and England haven't.

Yeah.

And is that then

a failing of Southgate or not?

Because Mark, you were saying stick it, keep it as it is.

Yeah,

I think that patience...

I know the subs have won the game, but I think you do just rip it up too quickly.

I think we do sort of fall into football manager mode and then just try to just-sign 20 places.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We start save games and i agree with lars really that this england team is about moments like i i think it will be difficult to replicate what they some of them do for their club so you know bellings had the had ease moment you know now had watkins with ease sacker had that individual moment foden so nearly did when it when it was cleared off the line so i i i'm sort of uh i'm much I suppose more sort of patient with kind of just sticking with it for longer than maybe others are.

It started so well for you, Bass.

It was like the perfect Barry goal.

A Declan Rice mistake and a Xavi Simmons goal.

You couldn't ask for more than that.

Yeah, what a strike it was from Xavi Simmons.

Really, really beautiful strike.

But yeah, you did say at the time that that was a perfect goal for me.

Because I didn't tweet till

the replay that it was Rice's error.

But, you know, I don't particularly bear Rice ill with any ill, but I still can't figure out whether he's a brilliant player or not.

I don't think he had his best night tonight, actually.

He hasn't had a good game yet in this tournament, as far as I can tell.

But,

you know, anytime I criticise him, and anytime, indeed, James McLean criticise him, it's because we're bitter.

Yeah.

I'm not.

You sound a bit.

No, I'm not.

The way you pronounced that made me.

You were saying, you were suggesting you're not, but the way you said that makes me think that you are.

No, no, I'm sure you're not.

Troy Townsend tweeting that might be the best thing to happen to England this early, dare I say, which is very bold.

You know, that could have gone to freezing cold takes pretty quickly, couldn't it?

Should we talk about the penalty?

Adam says, do any of you think for a split second that should have been a pen?

I think what Gary Neville and Ian Wright were quite interesting on the ITV coverage, weren't they?

Neville said it was a disgrace.

Wright, he said it was a penalty.

Lars, I'll go to you.

So I think it's a funny one because...

When it happened, I was like, hang on, that's probably a foul.

And it was one of those things that if it happens in the center circle, if it's a defender clearing it and a striker coming in with a studs like that, the referee will blow up and we'll just go, yeah, that's a free kick and we move on.

Now, having said that, I'm not used to seeing them give us given as pens.

I feel like we've seen defenders fly into blocks in reckless manners.

And if the shot, as long as the shot gets taken, the refs tend to just let it go.

But there's nothing in the laws about if the if the striker gets his shot off, the ref is the defender's allowed to do whatever he wants.

So I think on paper, I think you can defend that as a decision.

But it is a slightly surprising decision.

I think a lot of, I've noticed a lot with ex-players that they don't like it when fouls are given, when players are just kind of contesting a ball.

But the laws of the game are pretty clear that like if you go for a ball in a careless or a reckless manner, then that is a foul, whether Gary Neville likes it or not.

I think it's, you can absolutely argue that the way Dumfries goes into block there, he does so in a careless or reckless, since there was a yellow card manner.

And yeah, I don't have a huge problem with the decision, but it comes back to my hobby horse, which is not all fouls in the book should be given as penalties.

It's one of those, there's so many.

It applies to dumb hand balls.

It applies to sort of slightly,

yeah, it's a foul, but it's one of those fouls where, according to the laws of the game, it's a foul, but I don't love the fact that a team got an 80% chance of a goal because of it.

That seems excessive to me, but that is the way the laws are written.

I don't know if it was a penalty or not.

I don't think it should be.

I don't think Dump Fries did anything wrong, but if his studs were pointing slightly in the wrong direction, you know, not completely facing the ground then.

But

what I do know for certain is it wasn't a clear and obvious error, so

it shouldn't have been dealt with by VAR.

You definitely agree that it shouldn't have been sort of dealt with by VAR because it wasn't

a clear and obvious error.

I don't think it was careless or reckless.

And there is a law about the spirit of the game and kind of referees often speak about kind of what

people expect

from an outcome.

And in my opinion, most people would not expect that to be a penalty.

I guess the thing that sums it up is: like, I've been in touch with a former sort of international-level referees who says it's a stonewall penalty and a clear yellow card.

And we've also seen a number of other ex-referees, including the esteemed Keith Hackett,

declare on the other side of it.

And I guess, whatever you think about it, if highly qualified and competent and educated referees do not agree on what it was, then it probably wasn't a clear and obvious error.

Jesse says, Lors Lars will think it's a pen, and at some point he will say, You are responsible for where your limbs end up on the football pitch.

Maybe I was waiting for you to say he didn't say it.

No, but I think that applies.

Yeah, I guess that applies a little bit.

Like, it is the sort of stretched foot, slightly high-stretched foot with the studs-out thing that you're not supposed to do.

I really don't get how you can describe that as reckless, though.

I find that baffling.

Okay,

okay.

Chris says 100% a penalty.

David Platt's mum is a neighbor of mine.

And I hope Kuhlman gets to watch his

another five of those.

I do hope Kuhlman has serious sour craves.

I really do.

And we'll sort of get the quotes as they're coming in.

Ollie Watkins has just said, I swear on my life that I said to Cole Palmer, he's going to set me up today and I'm going to score.

It's the best feeling ever.

Producer Joel is re-watching the goal.

I presume on Luke.

Hopefully, he's listening to this.

He looks so shocked at what's just happened when the ball goes in the back of the net.

And we we did i i do think a word on cole palmer is is merited because he's had some minutes but fairly limited minutes and having just kind of earlier backed southgate's approach to being cautious with his subs and stuff like my sort of backseat tacticing here is that i would like to see cole palmer get more minutes because he's just of all the players he's one who seems just completely unfazed by the occasion he he's the sort of anxiety that we've seen creep in in some of the games less so today i thought but in some of the games

like he's just playing in the park.

He seems completely immune to it.

Like he seems to come on and not give any kind of a shit about what's going on.

And I think that is super useful for England in these high-pressure situations.

He's always ready to take the ball under pressure.

You can give it to him even when he's got someone on him and he'll look after it, win a foul.

All the stuff that you'd expect Grealish to do if he was in the squad, but he's not because he's had a bad season.

A lot of that stuff, I feel like that's a slack that Cole Palmer is picking up.

Now, it gets difficult to know who you drop from, right?

Because Bellingham is the guy and Saka bailed you out last time and Foden was brilliant in the first half.

So what do you do?

But I would like to see more Cole Palmer minutes in the final.

But I guess it's kind of this idea, Mark, that you now have finished, you know, this, you have finished starters and finishers in football matches.

Yeah, I mean, with five subs and then an extra one in extra time.

Yeah, I think that that is absolutely

a logical way to play.

England have now gone behind in the last three matches.

They're going up a level on Sunday.

And

I think trying to get the goal back against Spain would be completely different to trying to get it back against Netherlands, Slovakia and Switzerland.

So

I feel like England needs to be sharper defensively.

We haven't really spoken about them defensively, but that's another game where they haven't kept a clean sheet.

And it does worry me really that at the back.

We focus a lot on what they've not done well as an attacking unit.

I don't want to bring the mood down too soon, but

there's some people.

Listen,

I would be slightly concerned.

I have a positive defensive note, which I think, again,

might get overlooked.

But what a performance again by Kyle Walker, who just kind of gobbled up Cody Gakpo, who has been one of the better sort of attacking performers of the tournament.

And he just gobbled him up

like he was a Sunday lunch.

You didn't see Gakpo.

He did very little.

And Walker, I swear to God, somewhere in an attic somewhere, there is a truly rancid painting of Kyle Walker.

he's just not, he's just not aging.

Like, he's as fast as he was when he was 23.

I don't understand it.

And

really, I'm quite bitter at Ronald Kohlen for denying us.

I mean, he really should have put on Mickey Van Derven on that flight for flank there.

And we could have gotten the Van Der Veen versus a Kyle Walker runoff.

That feels like a sort of Batman versus Superman type of thing where they would just, like,

yeah, battle forever.

I mean, that would have been a good thing to see.

On Harry Kane, look, he's now has more knockout stage goals in major tournaments than any other European player.

So ahead of, he's on nine.

Gert Muller, Closer, Griezmann, and Bappay all have eight.

What did you make of his performance, Barry, today?

Right.

Well, I'm going to be that guy.

Please.

And say

against Panama or something.

In 18 semifinals and final matches in his career, he has

five.

Okay.

So.

It's not playing that many semifinals.

That's true.

That actually seems okay, doesn't it?

Five in

semi-finals?

Five in eighteen.

Yeah, nice.

It's a lot of semi-finals.

He's had a good career.

Must have played for some really good clubs.

Yeah.

We get to a lot of semi-finals.

But what did you make of his performance today?

I thought he started better than he has.

I thought he looked better and sharper and less like he was carrying a cart.

I thought he did well in the first half.

I thought he contributed to a very good team performance.

He was dropping deep, but there were people going beyond him and the movement was superior to what we've seen so far.

I mean, Tony and Watkins now have both made their mark on this tournament as well.

I think Garrisongate would just see it as that Kane's the starter and he's now got, if he wants somebody to run him behind, he's got Watkins.

If he wants the more sort of direct physical threat,

he can play Tony.

And, you know,

all three of the forwards are kind of doing what's been asked of them.

Kane has got three goals.

There's nobody at the tournament that scored more goals than Harry Kane.

I mean, he he could win the golden poop.

He is currently the joint top scorer.

If he gets a penalty goal in the final, yeah.

And this is something, Nikki has spoken about this a lot when she's been on, just like this underappreciation to have that guy up front that just scores goals.

And obviously she's speaking from an Italian point of view because they didn't have anybody like that.

So

I haven't been impressed with him in this tournament, but if like you're saying like, should he be dropped or would you start Watkins?

On the basis of what he did in that sort of first

hour or certainly first half i'd say no and actually and actually sorry lars the the when we you talked about credit for southgate the fact that you know there are players in this tournament that cannot be subbed like ronaldo or like mbappe and southgate does seem to have this relationship with his captain with perhaps our talisman before the tournament started even

that you can take him off yeah yeah i thought the ronaldo comparisons were always slightly ludicrous because the big thing about ronaldo is he did not score the goal no true whereas kane scored the the goal in the draw against denmark and the goal that actually sent them through the last 18, which feels like a telling contribution, of which Ronaldo made none.

So that feels like a pretty significant difference.

And on the golden boot thing, like we joke, I'd say there's a really big chance that he ends up with the golden boot here because it's only him.

There's a bunch of players on three goals, of which only Harry Kane and Danny Olmo is left in the tournament.

So it's either him or Danny Olmo to get a goal in the final, or Fabian Ruiz getting two.

That doesn't seem like something that'll happen because he's on two goals, whilst Bellingham is also on two, so he could score two.

Maybe, I mean, we're very optimistic on England's behalf.

So Harry Kane getting a dodgy penalty to tuck in the golden boot in the final.

That's a thing that could happen.

Could, couldn't it?

Are you worried, Barry?

No, I'm resigned to it.

Are you?

I think England will win.

I'm convinced they'll win.

Well, we'll preview the Spade game in part two.

Marcus says, if you don't put Barry's face on all types of merch with the headline, it doesn't matter.

Nothing matters.

I'm never listening to you again.

All right, is there anything else we wanted to pick out of this game, Mark?

You know, if if anything the netherlands should have done differently or well i think memphis's injury although it enabled um the dutch to sort of reorganize i mean he

is a threat up front and they were suddenly without um a player who maybe hasn't lit up the tournament but has still um been an important player over the last probably best part of a decade for them and would have been as likely as say Gakpo to score.

I mean, going into the game, I think his expected goal figure was like two, two, almost double that of Gakpo.

So they had to play very differently once Memphis went off injured.

So that was unfortunate.

I think DeVry at the centre-half, like Watkins has done brilliantly to score that goal.

If we were

doing this in sort of Netherlands tonight, I think you would be looking at that and wanting more from your centre-back in that moment.

Especially when you've got like Dericht on the bench just hanging around there, or even van der Wayen, who maybe would have matched him for pace a little bit more.

I just thought they moved the ball out of defense pretty badly, the Dutch.

I mean I know we were kind of focused on England.

The Netherlands were not great and like in the second half, like the first 20 minutes of the second half were ridiculous.

Like at 83 minutes, 83, at 63 minutes, the combined XG for both teams so far in the second half was nil.

No, no, the expectations,

nothing, no efforts, absolutely zero, which like for almost 20 minutes of football is bad.

And we were clearly being quite anxious about, oh, England are looking a bit England-y.

but the Dutch weren't creating anything either.

Yeah, but we'd also started just talking about other things.

Yeah,

but that's also a sign that the game is bad.

Like, I had this yesterday when I was watching the other semifinal in the second half when we were all expecting France to make this big push.

I got distracted and I started talking to the people, the person I was hanging out with because I was like, nothing's happening here.

And that's kind of how the second half, as bad as England, were, the Dutch were also not great.

I mean, there's a new Cambridge signing the centre forward

called Ryan Ryan Loft.

Ryan Loft.

It was about 20 minutes before kickoff.

I just noticed that we'd signed someone and obviously whenever you've signed someone you have no idea who it is.

Turned out he scored one in 26 for Port Vale last season and everyone in the comments was like thank God you've taken him from us.

I mean I apologise to Ryan Loft.

I hope you're an excellent signing for us.

Yeah, he's got Ryan Loft got a lot of conversation time during the sort of 20 minute window in that second half.

I will be taking a keen interest in Ryan Loft.

I mean the concern about Loft, he did have just

one goal in 26 appearances, which is the number that's been going around.

Now I checked a bit closer.

11 of those are off the bench max.

Fine, okay.

So it's actually just one goal in 15.

Good to know.

And then 11 off the bench.

And no assists, but you know, he wins 3.2 aerials per game, does Ryan Loft?

So that seems promising for you guys.

0.3 key passes per game.

That's not as promising.

I think that's enough.

The only other thing we noticed is that when Luke Shaw was coming on, the England England coach, I'm not sure who it was, was wearing a sort of a very tight purple smoking jacket.

I've got any idea what that was.

Is that sort of, because I didn't see Jimmy Floyd in a smoking jacket.

I didn't see like Steve Holland is not wearing a...

It's not like, it's not, you know, it's not like Gareth Southgate has demanded that his rushed velvet

stuff.

I mean, it's the new waistcoat that Gareth has just said everybody must wear a kimono before you're allowed to give a tactical advice to Luke Shaw.

Big Vout didn't do much, did he?

Well,

he was there and he was large and he kind of got in people's way.

Yeah.

You know, he did the Big Vout Veghorse thing.

But again, the Dutch weren't great at creating things for him.

It was an absolute dog of a second half.

Like, let's be clear, it was terrible, right up until England with a piece of magic did it.

And yeah, that's international term.

I've been like, as i've been zoning out because again it was a boring second half looking at this golden boot race because it goes to minutes play doesn't it mark langdon you'll be across with this if it's a if it's a tie assist and assists first yeah oh that's big for danny olmo because he's got two of those because i thought for a minute here that ivan schantz might be in because you know he's been knocked out ages ago and he's he's got very few minutes yeah that's big for big for danny olmo yeah This is a pretty boring part.

We should probably cut this out.

Well, I hope so.

But I mean,

I preferred your back stats on Ryan Lott, to be honest.

That's how boring it was.

No, I actually.

No, sorry, stop, please.

Yeah.

Got the wind and the rain.

Yeah, what I thought,

it was when we were kind of getting quite antsy because it felt, I mean, some of us may have said it's effing coming, isn't it?

About the Dutch.

It felt like England, we're very England, and this is going to heading for heartbreak.

I only realized that our feed on this may be about 20 seconds behind because very randomly, my mother suddenly texted me in all caps Satan and three exclamation marks

Which isn't typically something that my mother will will message me on a on on a on a Wednesday night like not that often occasionally maybe but yeah so I figure because my mother didn't have a skin didn't have skin in the game but she just kind of decided she doesn't really like the orange of the dish you think it's quite an ugly color so she was full on with England hair so I figured something might be up there we are all right well look that'll do for part one and we'll look ahead to the final in part two was that only part one?

Jesus.

Yeah, there's more of this to come, Barry.

Keep that bit in.

I thought it would have gone on about Ryan Laugh.

Whatever the hell he was on about that must be at least the end of part two.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

I'd be delighted if you kept that little preview of

just before part two from Barry.

Mark says, ask Barry how much he's going to enjoy watching our hopes and dreams crushed in the final for a second time.

I think he'll win the final.

I absolutely win.

Whoa!

Is this an emotional hedge, Barry?

No.

I've made a financial hedge.

Big financial hedge.

I'm not doing it, you know.

But I absolutely expect England to win the final.

It's just, you know, you hear about teams having their name written on the trophy.

I don't think I've ever seen a more clear example than this.

To win the tournament, Spain have to win their seventh game in a row.

They have to, you know, they're due a bad game.

England played a decent 45 minutes of football tonight.

You know, the muscle memory will be sort of coming back to them.

You know, these are really good players.

And

I don't think I've ever been as certain of anything as I am certain that England will win the final.

But I suppose Spain have been on the easy side of the draw, haven't they?

They've just beaten Germany and France.

I don't know.

I feel like

in terms of England playing better, which they definitely did in the first half today, that Dutch midfield with Geinder Schrouten and Charby Siemens, there's a lot of skill there, but there's like the opposite of the France midfield, which is frustratingly has been all water carriers.

This is no water carriers, really.

Schrouten has a bit of defensive stuff to him, but you really don't have a hard...

There's no Declan Rice in there, put it that way.

Whereas Spain has got Roderick, who's literally the best player in the world in that position.

I don't think Mainu and Foden and the lads will find it quite as easy to pick passes as they did in the first half of this one.

I follow Baz's view that it just kind of seems to be dropping for England in this tournament.

They've not been good, but it just kind of seems to be dropping.

But they are now playing the team that's been the best team in the tournament by a mile.

Like, it's not, who has been the best team in the tournament on the basis of what we've seen?

Like, it's not close.

It is, Spain are this far ahead of everyone.

And the question is, can England stop them?

I'm not fully convinced because England still really haven't played anyone very good.

Well, I think if you asked me this a few weeks ago,

most people would have said England have got sort of better players than Spain.

And I know that hasn't quite played out at all.

Before they saw any of the games.

Yeah, but I mean, I think

if you go player for player through the team, like

you wouldn't necessarily have swapped any, like you wouldn't have swapped Kane for Murata, for instance.

You wouldn't swap my

current Kane.

No, but I'm talking about the family.

I love the guy, but like it's not fair.

A few weeks before the tournament, I'm saying

going into the tournament.

Well then he was definitely injured, but I see your point.

Kane was better than Murata.

Yeah, you would have said, oh, Saka, Foden, Bellingham.

is at least equal and probably better than Yamao and Nico Williams and Danny Olmo.

You would have conceded that Rodri was superior to Deccan Rice, but not been that much in it.

If you were talking about how most Premier League observers see it, and then Lenormand at the back with Laporte, not swapping them out really for the England ones.

Kukurea at left back, at least he can play left back, which would, I suppose, be one thing.

I'm sad not to get in the combined 11s.

No, exactly.

So, I mean, if you, you know, a few weeks ago, I would have been much more confident, but Spain, as has already been said, have been the best team by a long way.

And I think if they play to the levels they have done, they'll win.

But because you've played like that for three or four games, five games, doesn't mean that you'll do it for a seventh game.

In fact, it's sort of

on what Barry's saying,

you wouldn't be that amazed, would you, if suddenly there was a less impressive performance?

Yeah, and I suppose it'll be K-like you feel like it won't be KG Barry because of how Spain play.

But even as Lars said in that semi-final against France, they didn't have as many shots as I think they had.

You know, when he said it, I felt like they weren't KG yesterday, but maybe they were.

Oh, God, that was a long time ago.

A lot has happened.

Last night, Spain had six shots in the game and two on target, which they scored both.

Wow.

Certainly felt like more when I was watching.

500 passes, so it was death by 500 passes.

I suppose when you think about Lamar and Williams, you know, and just how well they're both playing against the English defence with a solid midfield that Spain have and Olmo.

I think both teams will score.

And I think it could be quite open, very entertaining final for a final.

But I don't think England will win.

I just think it's written in the gods.

I know what Lars means.

It feels like a hedge.

I know you don't mean it like that, but it feels like.

No, the hedge I've done is financial.

I've figured out how much money

I need to win

to that you know, to make it not it won't ease the pain, but you know, it it it would be worth losing that money for them not to win the tournament.

I'm really curious about what that sum is, but I feel like maybe

more be telling you.

How was the WhatsApp group?

Quiet?

Quiet devastation, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Has everyone had a go?

Uh, well, if someone's gone to bed in a huff,

which I would have done as well, that's why I didn't have to do this.

Uh, yeah,

anyway, yeah, off to bed in the huff.

That's the last century.

How do England beat Spain?

Yeah, I was just thinking about this now, because they have apparently now settled on playing three at the back with Saka and Tripier possibly show as wingbacks.

I think those wide areas versus Yamal and Williams could be an interesting one.

You can imagine Walker maybe looking after Williams.

I mean, Walker, again, an absolute freak of nature.

I have no idea what he doesn't age.

It's weird, but it seems to be a thing.

Actually, I don't feel like he's had his best tournament.

I think there were a few moments today.

There's one in particular when he was a little bit out of position.

He just ate up the ground so quickly to deal with the you.

You think of all the players to cope with Nico Williams, he has the tools to do it.

Yamal and that sort of other side, yeah, and I just think the midfield battle will be an interesting one because they're so strong in that area, Spain, and that still remains an issue for England.

Is there any word on Alvaro Murata?

Is he any after-effects of that collision with the Steward?

Yeah, Del Fuente said he felt he'd be okay, and it was just a kind of minor sort of issue, really.

I guess the big thing is...

This could finally be the game in which England gets a counter-attack.

Because

they have ended up, even against the Dutch, they ended up having like 60% possession and being the team that had the ball the most and trying to break down the opponent because for the first half hour, the Dutch were pretty open and England were allowed to play.

And then Coleman realized this is bad and changed it and packed the midfield and England couldn't play anymore.

And we got the sort of classical England pass the ball sideways and not go anywhere performance.

But Spain, clearly...

even as this is a more direct Spain than before, Spain will dominate possession you would expect.

And I think this team is kind of set up okay to counter i think with the players you have yeah the the only thing i i haven't liked about spain is when they got in front against germany and against france

to a certain extent they didn't play the same way and that's maybe natural because you're you're holding on to that one goal lead um and they did i felt against france sort of invite france on too much

concede early and

there was an interesting note here about how southgate and england gets criticized a lot for sitting back when they score but having seen literally every game of the tournament everyone has.

Like every team in the tournament has.

When they score a goal and get a lead, they're like, okay, we'll sit back.

And I think more and more, so much of what we're seeing makes sense if you go into it with the perspective that every single player is at no more than 60, 70% of their physical capacity.

Like they're all knackered.

So the sort of let's press and run thing, they only do it when they have to score.

Like they're, oh, we have a goal now.

Fine, okay, we can sit back.

Good God.

I don't want to run anymore.

Like they're all very tired.

And this is why the games are looking like they are.

I just, I worry about the midfield battle.

I think that might be a bit one-sided.

But then, the plus side of that is England have people with pace who can run at opponents, and they might actually have a chance to do that in this game.

One day less rest as well.

Um,

that's not ideal, it's not ideal.

Well, we'll do a preview pod on Friday so we can repeat all that.

Then, are we getting the big Len Denning-Roni clash that the people want to see?

Here's hoping: how are you feeling about it?

Lord, Max,

do you want this to end?

Have your people, have you, have your people.

Have your people.

But

your job is to do the talking about the football.

You can't just say,

Mars won't let me get a warranty anyway.

I bet you're fucking designed.

Brilliant.

Absolutely fantastic.

Do you want me to end this soon, Barry?

Is that what I say?

No, you're okay.

I'm not going to eke it out just to torment you because you may, you know how these things come around very quickly.

You may well be able to torment me in about four days' time.

We shall see.

but

i'm a better man when it comes to this sort of thing max than you i won't torment you

you right you've already made up some there is video evidence i've

i would bet you a hundred pounds there is not

of a chef's kiss just a little you just did i'm sure you went like this like i remember it i remember you going like this

No, I had a little smirk on this.

Right.

And then I was saying, what's this?

And then you put your fingers like your hand.

Oh, well, it wasn't a deliberate.

Oh, I see.

An accidental chef's kiss.

We've all been tolerance.

If I haven't been an accidental kiss.

See, when we look at the video, oh, once again, it was an accidental chef's kiss.

There's nothing in the laws about intent is the thing.

Like, if it's not, even if it's accidental, you are responsible for where your limbs end up whilst watching the football.

I think this is going to go to VAR.

I like this.

And Christine Uncle's going to come on and explain.

And Keith Hackett will declare...

That chef's kiss.

Oh, I see what you mean there.

No, I'm still not convinced it was a chef's kiss.

Oh, there's video minutes.

One of us will have to apologize on Friday.

If I do, I will apologize with all of my heart.

And likewise, I'm sure.

All right, that'll do for part two.

We'll do any other business in part three.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Kay says, what would Barry prefer to talk about?

England winning or Ireland's new manager being a dentist?

Yes, you've appointed Barry Haimer Halgrimsson as your new manager.

The opening line of his Wikipedia is: Haimer Helgerson is an Icelandic dentist and football manager.

Paul Watson saying, Ireland have appointed arguably the best coach dentist in all of football.

No wonder it took them a while to make this appointment.

Jonathan Wilson, with respect, Francisco Mauturana is surely the greatest dentist coach.

The hell that is, Dimigh Wilson.

I'm not reading Producer Joel saying, I bet he can't wait to get his teeth stuck into the island job.

Anyway, how do you feel about this appointment?

Well, I very much hope he can cure our toothlessness up front

or lack of bite.

Happy Barry is back,

lack of bite.

I won't lie, I don't know a huge amount about him, apart from the fact that he got Iceland to a World Cup where they drew with Argentina,

and he got Jamaica to Copa America, where they lost three group games.

So he sounds ideal for us

because, you know, we're an island, small island with a small talent pool, and he's achieved some measure of success.

He sounds, I've listened to a couple of his interviews earlier today.

He sounds like a nice enough guy.

It's come from left field.

I don't think anyone saw it coming.

And if my

what's that group of my Irish mates is any kind of barometer, I suspect everyone in the country is thoroughly underwhelmed by the appointment i'm curious in what sense are they underwhelmed what were they hoping for because all they hear like everyone hears is oh we've appointed a dentist yeah it's probably patronizing i mean i suspect i was

patronizing

i i was kind of hoping to never ever ever mention the fact that he has or used to do a different job and still occasionally dabbles but uh yeah you you went straight in and did the dentistry yeah i had seven fillings yesterday oh yeah Yeah.

And a crown.

That's sort of some relevant dental material.

Yesterday.

That sounds like you just

have been

eating some Arabo solidly.

Yeah, have you?

Well, I think they're quite old fillings that were redone.

All right.

But yeah, I was quite sad yesterday.

I was at a low ebb.

And you dig out my diet, Max.

I dig out your diet.

Well, actually, talking of your diet, I didn't like the fact that we had Nando's chicken wraps and Mark pulled out every little bit of salad from the chicken wraps.

I don't like the crunch.

I don't like the crunch.

I don't like the crunch.

That's a t-shirt, isn't it?

I'd say you were at a low ebb when you got the bill for your seven fillings.

$2,300.

Oh, what?

You left them in.

I know.

Well, then they go, would you like these fillings that are really good?

Or you can have these shit ones for about half the price that will probably disintegrate in about three weeks.

So then you go, oh, I'll have the expensive ones.

Isn't the expense?

Do you want, you know, tooth-coloured fillings or grey ones?

So you stick the grey ones at the back.

Oh, I didn't choose where I put them.

I just had where they were needed to be.

Is that more or less than you stand to win?

Silence.

Silence.

Silence from the witness.

Let's finish with this email from Dan, who says, To answer the quad's question about how you find out whether the SNP has worked, you basically have to, in Dan's word, pleasure yourself something like 50 times in two months and then produce a sample which gets tested.

My results letter was sent to my next door neighbour who opened it by accident, meaning that 80-year-old Maury knew that I was infertile before I did.

My anesthetic also hadn't kicked in during the procedure, which provided me with the most horrendous few minutes of my life so far.

If you are looking for positives, I have since had no children.

Love the pod.

Come on, England.

Thank you, Dan.

Greatly appreciated for answering that question from yesterday.

Yes, Mark?

I mean, I've had the SNP and I was not not asked to pleasure myself 50 times in two months.

So, how do you know that it's worth?

Well, you know,

well, it's less than 50.

We'll put it that way.

Okay, fair enough.

All right, then that'll do for today.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Lars.

Thank you, Max.

Thank you very much, Barry.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens back on Flight.

Look out for the mythical chef's kiss out on social media.

This is The Guardian.