England hold nerve to sink Swiss and set up Netherlands clash – Football Daily

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly are the smile of Bacayo Saka.

Just lovely.

Ivan Toney's no-look penalty.

Jordan Pickford's big face and Trent Alexander Arnold sticking it in the top corner.

And England are through to the semi-finals of the European Championship.

Saka was magnificent.

It was better all round, but still.

Split opinion on if they were any good or not.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but they were familiar issues.

The left side, Harry Kane in the Ronaldo role, no changes until it was desperate.

But Gareth Southgate proved right again.

His third semi-final in four tournaments is impressive.

And then a stunning turnaround from the Netherlands mean we get to replay that game from Euro 96 for the next four days.

Turkey were impressive and have been all tournament.

It was Bedlam at the end end for Brugen immense in goal for the Dutch and they held on.

We'll look ahead to the semi to answer your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, John Bruin, welcome.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Barry Glen Denning.

Hello.

And hello, Robin Cowan.

Hi, Max.

Before I get to the panel, I caught up with Jacob Steinberg a little while after full time and had a little chat.

Okay, Jacob, you're in the bowels of the stadium somewhere.

How was that evening for you?

It was once again an illogical, weird evening with England to follow on from the Slovakia game.

I didn't think they played very well.

I think they were pretty lucky.

I think we could see from around the 50th minute until they scored, as I kept saying to Barney Rone to my left, the goal is coming, Switzerland, they're going to score.

And then they did.

And all that time, when they were pressing Switzerland and

they were on top, and England was struggling to get their half, he was just begging Southgate to make a substitution and it didn't come and the only point at which it did was obviously when

the goal went in Bolo and at that point it's suddenly suddenly we do the triple change

when he was just hoping maybe something might be tweaked and yeah it wasn't.

We saw more kind of inertia and frozen, you know, rabbit frozen in the headlights kind of stuff once again on the touchline.

But England got through and it's weird because even in extra because I think once the goal goes in from Saka, it's this brilliant goal kind of out of nowhere.

Second game in a row that England scored a first shot on target with an amazing goal from one of their brilliant players who just kind of hope could do it a bit more.

Even I thought Saka was very good tonight.

And then once they've got on all these attacking players and they've taken off defenders, you go, oh God, they've got the weird team on now.

And once the game settles back down and they have to start defending,

it all gets a bit hairy.

And although although Rice has a chance and Bellingham has a bit of a look as well, and I thought Palmer and Eze, having come on did really, really well actually tried to make a lot of things happen, Switzerland

an extra time.

And England were hanging off the penalties.

I think, you know, the irony of it all is that the only time that England looked in control was when it went to penalties.

And I guess that comes back to...

with Southgate, you know, this process-driven manager who really seems to have just sort of forgotten everything that he's about at this tournament and kind of forgone the process.

It comes back to all that work that he's done in the psychology of the shootout,

banishing the demons with England.

You know, he's gone through it himself as a player.

They were just so in control.

Every penalty was absolutely brilliant.

And obviously, Hickford knew where Akanji was going to go, psyched him out, I think.

And so they go on into a semi-final when they've played world, what, about maybe 30 minutes against Serbia, you should say.

Yeah, I think so.

But maybe it doesn't matter.

I'm starting to wonder, maybe maybe it doesn't matter.

Maybe we just sort of forget all of the things that we think about football, because otherwise you can't enjoy this, right?

This is our third semi-final in four tournaments, and yet it does feel weird.

Well, I suppose that's what you have to say about Southgate is England in the 22 years or whatever before he got to

got the job had been to one semi-final and that was a home tournament in year 96.

Since then, a series of disappointments followed by a load of humiliations under under Capello and Roy Hodgson, and obviously not getting to a tournament under Stephen McLaren with good players.

And Gareth Southgate cards, and actually,

for all this, for all the people questioning him, you have to say that he does seem to know what to do in a tournament.

There's resilience to this team.

There is something about them that means that they can stick to some kind of plan, even though that plan hasn't always been that visible in Germany this time.

It certainly hasn't been in previous tournaments.

And, you know, Barney wrote this morning,

you know, if he gets to a, if he gets to another semi-final claim that he's England's greatest ever manager, I think, you know, you probably have to win it

for that to be said, but

probably the second greatest at the moment.

And,

you know, it's just, it's sad to see him get so much criticism because he's a nice, dignified, clever man who

is the best we've got

and is so good at so many elements of the job.

Maybe not, you know, changing a game when it's getting away from them.

I think he does deserve more love, respect from supporters.

I think the people who he might not see it, the people who the people who probably are in his corner the most, and he might not always see it, probably are the print media.

We're

his last people

who are just really with him.

And it's just felt quite hard over this month to keep the faith.

But they go into a semi-final.

Good Good stuff, Jacob.

Thanks for coming up, pal.

Cheers, thank you.

Jacob Steinberg, there somewhere in the deepest depths of that stadium in Dusseldorf.

So, I think producer Joel has fixed the audio to a level.

Chris says, At what point will England get tired?

Zvonimir says, True evil never dies, right, Baz.

So, England threw on penalties.

I feel like, John, there are two conversations here: the penalties and the game.

And can we start with the penalties?

When Saka smiled, I don't think I burst into tears, like sobs of tears, but I definitely welled up with happiness.

Yeah, I did too.

I did too.

You might only cast back to the Euro 20 final, can't you?

2020 final.

And you think

that what happened there when he missed the penalty, and him and Jane Sancho and Marcus Russell missed the penalty.

That was one of the saddest incidents in English football history, really, wasn't it?

The abuse that they received.

And, you know,

we're at a point, well, in English history or British history, you know, where things are changing.

And when you think of what black footballers have done to change the culture of this country, it's a multicultural society and we're a better society for it.

What happened back at Euro 2020 was dreadful.

And for them to bury that ghost,

soccer in particular, was just a wonderful moment.

And, you know, I sat on my sofa, just head in hands, totally agonising over it.

You know, just, you know, and you have to do it these days, don't you?

That thing where everyone's TV is slightly on a different timing.

So if you're on WhatsApp, someone's ahead of you, someone's behind you, or whatever, and you have to put the phone down.

And you sat, I was sat in solitude, just like, please, please, please don't miss this.

And they were all absolutely beautiful penalties.

Jordan Pickford, again,

an absolute hero for England.

It was a wonderful moment and it covered a multitude of sins.

Which we'll get to.

I mean, I actually, because I'm quite near a pub, right?

So, and I'm on I, I'm on iPam, wherever I am, about two minutes behind, right?

So I have to close everything because producer Joel's in the script and he's putting the score in.

I've got these wireless, massive headphones on, like I'm on a bus, on a team coach.

It's like you're in the Mr.

and Mrs.

booth.

Exactly right.

Yeah, I mean, I'm the second person going in family fortunes to win the big money.

And actually, that sack of moment, Robin, it is exactly like Stuart Pierce in Euro 96.

And yet it's so different because the way they react to that relief is just so, it's like worlds apart.

It was kind of beautiful, actually.

And he was, you know,

best player for England, I would say.

Obviously, a low bar, but

he was great all game.

And just a quote afterwards, he was interviewed and he said, you can fail once, but you have a choice about whether to put yourself in that position again.

And that is just so opposite of my life philosophy.

I'm looking at the whole form here, Robin.

Yeah, so it's just

so admirable.

So admirable.

The shit that they had to pull up with.

I mean, it's it's abominable, unimaginable.

And the fact that, you know, I think you'd be forgiven for not wanting to put yourself in that position again, absolutely.

And yet he became Arsenal's, you know, prime penalty taker pretty much straight after that.

And he's been trusted with this again.

And yeah, just

so much.

He's an inspirational figure, the Kaiosaka, for sure.

Yeah.

He said, I'm not going to focus on the past, but I know there were lots of nervous people watching, like my family, and that the impact that must have had in Euro 2020, not just on them, but like on the, you know, their nearest and dearest must have been so, so hard.

And obviously scoring a penalty shouldn't make that any different, right?

I mean, that's ridiculous

that it will, actually.

barry how are you feeling lots of people saying how is barry i'm fine i'm absolutely fine today

it was the nature of the equalizer last week that knocked me that was a gut punch but

i'm kind of resigned to my fate now and already planning ahead to how to deal with next week's pod which if the unthinkable should happen, I reckon will be one of the most listened to podcasts in the history of the genre.

You won't need any other guests, so just be Barry.

Barry.

Crying.

Sobbing in a chorus.

It's a monologue of misery.

Yeah, so I'm fine.

I am very pleased for

Kaya-Saka and the other players

who avoid this scurrilous abuse.

The fact that we're even discussing it makes me a little sick to my stomach that we have to mention it.

But i won't lie i wanted him to miss but he didn't the penalty taking was superb um they all scored with with a land and jordan pickford made the critical save so

they on the evidence on the basis of that alone that that they deserve to go through yeah i mean how does ivan tony john do that oh like how do you not look at the ball i would i would i would just it'd be like having a blindfold on i wouldn't make any contact with it's funny though because i was thinking about how I've spent a lot of time at Brentford, like Robin, actually.

And

Thomas Frank always talks about how he's the best penalty taker in the world.

And I just thought, oh, hang on, is that going to be a hostage to fortune in this game?

I was thinking that as he was running, yeah.

And I was just thinking, because he's just, he just has this reputation as the best penalty taker, but because he is.

And, but then again, we used to think that about Jorginho, didn't we?

And he missed one in the Euro 2020 final.

But yeah,

just so cool.

No doubt.

See ya, goal.

Can I mention Trent as well?

Please.

I mean, if we're on about redemption stories, there's been this undercurrent, hasn't there, that maybe after the failed midfield experiment, it was a failed experiment, that he was one of those cast out in the cold by Garen Southgate.

And he was pretty much brought on just to take a penalty as well.

And he proved himself by he absolutely buried it.

Just Just again, no doubt, no question.

There was

a week ago after the Sabina Go, there was that picture, wasn't there, that a few people tried to pick up on that Joe Gomez and Trent weren't so happy at the final whistle.

I don't think that was, it was just one of those sort of snapshots.

I'm sure it wasn't actually the case, but you know, there's always sort of one of these weird things about tournaments is this sort of weird club loyalty sort of stuff comes in, and it's like, no, Maynu's better than Trent, and you know, but about Phil Fair, you know, all this stuff and

don't tell me that trent didn't absolutely want to do that for his country and you know smashed it home well done trent it hasn't been a happy tournament for him uh i think actually i felt sorry for him in that in that midfield position it wasn't his position but well done mate and uh we'll see him next week as well yeah and actually i totally agree with you the tribalism within the england team is just so frustrating isn't it and i know social media right we should just stop looking at it but you know liverpool fans just just praising him and arsenal fans just praising sack you're like well this is silly right it's just not what this is it's not what this is meant to be um and bellingham took his penalty brilliantly and palm as well who i has always made a difference coming on great tweet doing the rounds from jordan pickford from 2012 i don't know if you've seen it 2012 he sent a tweet saying wish the parents would pay for me to have sky in my room freeview is soul destroying at this time of night you just think how things have moved on for jordan pickford so maybe barry england don't ever need to play well it's beginning to look like it certainly.

I mean, are we talking about the actual game now?

Yeah, oh, do you know what?

I did want to mention.

Hang on, hang on.

I did want to mention like some of the scenes, the scenes with the players and their families.

And actually, there are lots of different scenes, but that scene at Edgebaston, right?

India are playing Pakistan at Edgebaston, right?

And then all the fans of both of us, and that is not a friendly rivalry most of the time, come together to watch this penalty shootout and all go wild together.

And maybe I'm sort of being misty-eyed, and you know, we've got a new, you know, we've got a new government, and we're all happy, blah, blah, blah.

but it was already like that was a sort of England that you sort of go I'm really proud of that and it really made me happy why not think that we should be able to think that at last you know we should be you know before it all goes wrong let's be positive about it yeah let's have this weekend just this weekend

I'll go back to being really miserable next time but let's just let's just have this shall we yeah so to the game then Southgate said I thought the players were brilliant it's the best we played we caused them a lot of problems they're a hard hard team to play against.

To come from behind, again, showed resilience and character.

It's what it's about.

Winning tournaments is not all about playing well all the time.

It'd be good if it was some of the topics.

We had to believe that was an ad lib from me, by the way, just in case that was not a Southgate quote.

We had to be tactically spot on.

Chris says, when you haven't won anything in 50 plus years, you can't be picky on how you go about being successful.

They weren't good, Barry.

Are we talking about the game I saw, and you, we, we all all saw, or the game that the lads in the BBC studio saw?

Because in that game, they were brilliant.

But in the game I watched,

it was an improvement on recent performances, but the bar is so low and the improvement was so negligible that...

It's hard to...

discuss this without sounding really mean-spirited because they did win, but it was a very, very poor performance.

I suppose the best thing you could say about them was that they,

for most of the game, not all of the game, but most of the game, they

didn't allow Switzerland the freedom they had against Italy when they absolutely ran amok.

So that's something.

But in cancelling out Switzerland and dragging them down to their own level,

they created nothing of note.

I think the goal was their first shot on target.

And

it was just more of the same, really.

It's ponderous sideways, sideways, sideways, backwards, backwards, backwards, slow passing, giving the ball away.

Harry Kane not really been anywhere to be seen on the occasions when they did get crosses into the box.

He was never there.

And

the one constant threat they had was was Bakay Osaka on the right wing when they got the ball out to him he was he had his man on on absolute toast Arbyshire then he'd get the ball in the box and there's no one there to to convert it so I would say it's their best performance yet they were brilliant in the penalty shootout but they certainly weren't brilliant in the game and

but it no longer seems to matter so

so who cares

no you're right And they, yeah, but they did, Robin.

I thought the first half, they were sort of positive signs, right?

I thought it did look better.

Of course, the left side is totally glaring.

Great question from Dave.

For England playing the very long game with Trippier, hiding his left foot until the final and then turning up like Liam Brady.

But, like, there's not, there's half the pitch we're not really playing in.

But in the first half, at least, there was, you know, Bellingham and Foden together looked slightly better.

I thought Concert played well, Maynu looked good.

But then we just went deeper and deeper and deeper.

And I was so unsurprised when Switzerland scored.

Oh, that was in the post.

That was coming, wasn't it?

And it was a really good goal.

I mean, I think just

it's just again,

Saka's goal was good.

It was a moment, another moment of individual quality because he struck it well and it hit the post and went in.

It's not like a kind of beautifully worked, incisive piece of play.

But maybe that's just this tournament, isn't it?

I just think we're going to be lifting the trophy and every still going.

Is it going to click soon?

It's going to click.

It will click soon.

It's just, it's like a race to the bottom with us and France.

But one of them will end up winning it.

And it'll be like, oh, is this?

Is this what it's?

Is it meant to feel like this?

It's not meant to feel like this.

Yeah.

Is football supposed to be like this?

Because, yeah, I agree.

It was an improvement.

I agree with Barry.

a very low bar set but yeah then and then the second half was kind of back to where it was and then i thought when luke shaw came on looks a bit more balanced um thank god Thank God he came on, though, because

if England had gone out and we'd not seen Luke Shaw, I mean, my God, my God, that is like one of the most absurd selection decisions.

But yeah, I don't know.

John,

are we Eric Ten Hags Manchester United winning undeserved wins over and over again?

Yeah, maybe this is maybe this is football now.

Maybe maybe this was always the way.

This idea, this maybe Pep Guardiola is like poisoned the well and you never had to play well to win.

Maybe that's maybe it's Pep Guardiola's fault of Jürgen Klopp coming here, making teams play

great football, and then expects and then he and then you want the England team to play good football and entertain us.

I mean, come on, we might have been shighting 66, really.

I mean, we all watched that final, but we're not really concentrating on it, are we?

Do you know what?

I think funny enough, there was that undertow, wasn't there, of this idea that Alf Ramsey made it a bit boring and that it wasn't quite the English football that a lot of people wanted to say.

I'm sure Jonathan could do four hours on that if he wanted to.

Thank God he's not here.

But there is that idea as well.

But this is England.

This is what we muddled through.

I mean, you know, remember Gareth started this game with this great tactical switch with three at the back.

But Gareth being Gareth, he made it look exactly the same as what we had before.

I mean, it was just it was just, you know, it's like

still Kiran Trippier stood on the left.

And, you know, and he's still passing the ball inside.

And, you know, when England were going out, I was, you know, you're wondering what's going on in Gareth's mind.

And he's just

thinking where him and Kieran Trippier are going to go on holiday together, you know, after this.

Because it was just.

At every table, Kieran Trippia has to sit on the left.

Of course, he does.

Just dropping his all-inclusive plate everywhere, spooning it out of the play.

I mean, to be fair, actually, I'm told the reason that Tripier played on the left is because they were afraid of Undoy, the Swiss player who was pretty decent, you know, and actually Tripier is a very experienced defender and did not a bad job

of stopping him.

But

it does feel that if England do win this, Kieran Trippier will be some sort of

what was the what was the French guy that didn't score a goal back in

the funny.

Yeah, that sort of like, you know he did his job but

no one was really sure what the job and it sort of didn't fit with the rest of it and it's i don't want to dig out kinship he's a great professional and uh but

it was just so you'd seen it before you'd seen it before

i've seen it before i've seen it before i've watched it with you i've watched this and then you have these what happens is you have these young players come in you think oh yeah that was bit and it's it's good isn't it oh yeah he's he's adding something extra but they soon become england players.

And they soon start to move a bit slower, a bit, you know, the ball goes back.

The amount of times the ball went back from a corner.

Good God almighty.

Well, and I was just going to say, there was one stage in the second half where England had a corner.

Trippier took it short.

And within three seconds, Jordan Pickford had it.

That was the first half.

Actually, that was in the promising first half.

Yeah.

And then you're just going, how did that just happen?

And no one in a Switzerland shirt was near it at any point.

And you're going,

what are they doing?

And then not long after that, they got a free tick in quite a promising position.

And the same thing happened.

No Switzerland player got within 20 yards of the ball and still ends up back with Pickford.

But

Looker works.

So crack on.

Robin,

the sort of, I wonder what has to happen for them to go, maybe we should make some changes, right?

Because we're all there going, this is it's getting, they're getting deeper and deeper.

Switzerland are gonna score, Switzerland have scored, and then they, and then it's desperation panic substitute.

You can't look at that and go, tactical masterclass.

Like, you just go,

I don't know.

Maybe, well, maybe you're right.

Look, this is a new, as we're saying, this is it.

This is the new world.

This is now a pattern.

This has happened more than once, more than once during this tournament.

Yeah.

He's the man's a genius.

He's like, we're going to wait, wait for the pressure to build so much that we can cede, and then I'm going to chuck you on.

It's not desperation.

This is

proper thinking behind this.

And actually, Palmer and Eze both made a difference, I thought, as well when they came on.

They both had a positivity.

They haven't been playing for England long enough, John, to be weighed down by give it a couple more games.

But

they did look, you know, they did look good.

I just want to talk about Harry Kane.

Will says, you on Football Weekly have been correctly critical of Ronaldo and Portugal as a vanity project.

England not doing the same with Kane in this this tournament, just seems to be drifting aimlessly about, taking up space without really occupying it.

Possibly an ice-cold take.

Is this the time, John, to talk about Harry Kane?

Because the Ronaldo comparison is staring right at us.

Well, he did end up in the box eventually.

It just happened to be off the field.

That's when Southgate noticed him.

He pushed him into that box of boots or ice or whatever it was next to them.

Yeah, it was desperate, really, from Harry Kane.

And you do wonder, you know, greatest thing, what would happen if Greatest Living Englishman Ivan Sony played instead, because he does move around and he can link play.

I was thinking about what Harry, what's Harry Kane's greatest contribution?

Was a point when he dropped back to play some sort of like Nicky Butt style sort of in front of the defence, and he was sweeping up and he like put in a couple of tackles.

And I'm thinking, that's not where you're supposed to be, mate.

And

like, because Bellingham's role had moved, you know, he dropped a little bit deeper in that sort of, do what they call it, two number eights or whatever, he dropped in.

There was absolutely nothing for England to feed off up front.

And

it's sad.

I mean, it does appear to happen almost every tournament that Kane has this,

you know, he arrives at a tournament unfit.

I mean, we waited for him back in Jury 2020, Yuri 2016, and his disaster.

He's not fit.

He's just not fit.

It doesn't matter how far.

He's just not fit.

Yeah, you just can't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he is a player that seems to have the ear of managers so that he will play, come what may.

Now, the thing is, Ronaldo is 39, but he's fitter than Harry Kane.

That's the thing.

But it's just not happening.

It's not quite the same as...

No, no, no.

He's a different person, right?

It's not quite the same as Ronaldo.

It's a different deal, but

it's one of those things where you would imagine if Kane's injury was bad enough, Gareth Southgate wouldn't be that

unhappy if he was given a chance to play a forward who moved around a bit and could possibly link the play a little better than Harry Kane is doing.

You lose what Kane can do, which is, you know, when you consider his goals, his goals have sort of come from nothing.

You know, just sort of snap finishes

that Harry Kane will be able to do possibly when he's 39.

But

it's not happening for him, is it?

And let's not forget.

Like, Harry has form here because Spurs could have won a Champions League in a Carabao Cup if he hadn't played in finals on one leg.

Now,

I don't know if it was his decision to do that or not, but that's what happened.

And they lost both finals.

And he should not have been playing in either game.

Yeah, I don't disagree.

It feels ridiculous in the semifinals, but there's just should be no time for reputation, right?

It's like, are you playing well?

Are you fully fit?

That surely should be able to test people's fitness, right?

Go and run however fast you have to run or whatever, you know.

I just think it's more political than that, isn't it?

It's really hard.

it's like roberto martinez found it impossible clearly impossible to to drop ronaldo and gara southgate's in a similar position i don't think we can compare the two by the way i think harry kane's got a long way to go while he's you know shooting from a narrow angle on a directory kick

good point lots of people got in touch about the bbc coverage james has there ever been a bigger discrepancy between the pundits and the tv of viewers today and actually i watched it barry after full-time and they were like relentlessly positive about everything, about Kane, about Southgate's timings of his substitutions.

I was sort of going, this is weird.

Like, because they, you know, I mean, like, Lineker literally called them shit like a few weeks ago, and they haven't got that much, but it was slightly better.

It was

odd, I thought.

Yeah, it was weird.

I mean, ultimately, it doesn't matter what.

Gary Lineker or Frank Lampard Rio Ferdinand or who's oh, Miko Richards

say, you know, same as it doesn't matter what we say, it's just talk, it's completely irrelevant.

But it was baffling, it was quite baffling.

Like, at half-time, they were rhapsodizing about how brilliant Phil Folden had been, and he'd done literally nothing apart from give the ball away nine times.

No, by the time he came off,

after 115 minutes or something,

he had given the ball away 19 times.

He didn't score, he didn't

assist.

He didn't have a shot on target.

You know, and to listen to them, you'd swear they were talking about a young Pele.

Now, Phil Folden is a fine player.

There's no doubt about that.

But he had a stinker tonight.

And he hasn't played well in this tournament.

And that's just, they were relentlessly positive about everything.

Look, Gary Lineker.

doesn't like being told what he can and cannot say on social media, so I'm going to presume he has a similar policy when it comes to you know what he says he's allowed to say or not say on television it it certainly feels like there might have been a dic tac for them to be more positive but i reckon they possibly just sting in a bit from the criticism they got for their negativity last time out yeah yeah i just found it it was just odd and actually itv afterwards they were like we were they were like wasn't a great performance

you know but they're through so who cares like like so it was quite interesting to see that because then I was like, well, maybe I'm, you know, when you're just hearing something, you're going, maybe I'm totally wrong.

I was like, listening to them at halftime, I felt like Principal Skinner, you know, am I Ocean Scott?

Well, well, I mean, that is also possible.

Let's be clear.

Anyway, we're in the semifinals, so who cares?

And we'll play the Dutch and we'll talk about their game next.

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Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Gita says these last 15 minutes were just enough to make us all fall in love with football again, right?

Netherlands 2, Turkey 1.

And actually, I mean, it was a great comeback, Robin, from the Dutch, but those last, just when Turkey were going for it and it was just, and then, you know, the Dutch would break and then Turkey would have another chance.

I loved that.

Oh, it was so good.

And I was just thinking there should be like a rule where there should, yeah, all games just have to be played like that from minute one.

Like, no,

pretend you're 1-0 down and we're in the last minute.

Uh, because it was, it was brilliant.

You know, Turkey were pretty unlucky.

I thought they were very good to start with fantastic goal, what a cross, um, Glendenning-like header, as you say, rising like a salmon.

Um, and I think they just ran out of steam a little bit, didn't they?

And the Dutch had more possession and eventually they shone through.

But I don't know, I still, I'm not, I mean, I don't want to say this, right?

Because as a sort of English person, but I don't mean that impressed by the Dutch either, really.

I did their first game against Czech Republic, and they were, they were okay, very wasteful, as they have been previously.

And apart from Cody Gakpo, who just looks so energized, so dynamic, and

really putting himself about.

They've got quite a few kind of star names.

I'm just not, as I say, not too convinced.

But

yeah, as I say, we'll miss Turkey.

Turkey can be in the bracket of Georgia and Austria, who we will miss dearly from the tournament.

They've been absolutely brilliant.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there was, remember that save that,

you know, the Turkey goalkeeper made in the final moment.

And Verbrogen's save was less spectacular, but actually, technically,

maybe just as difficult.

It was so low down that one in injury time.

I was going to say,

I went to Brighton the other day and met the new Brighton manager,

Fabian Herzler.

And he was asked a question about Verbruggin because, if you recall, last season, Brighton played two goalkeepers.

Not at the same time, no, for anyone who,

not one at left back who was cutting inside, you know.

Well, Roberto Deserbi is a revolutionary, but maybe not that revolutionary, but he would have this thing of playing two goalkeepers.

And

I've asked this question a couple of times, probably probably brightening at a no, and have said, you know, was there any reason why I did this?

No one had any clue why De Zerbi would do this.

Who is only 31, by the way?

Nice sleeve tattoos, is much younger than, well, may I say, all of us.

We spoke very well about Jason Steele's character and what a great person he was to have around the dressing room.

Oh, dear.

Which rather.

Which made me think.

Yeah, budget.

He's done very well for them, but

it made me think that Mabruggin

is probably going to be their first choice goalkeeper next season.

Of course, you know, he'd be a very sellable asset as well, which is obviously part of the way that Brighton run.

But, of course, he's a very good goalkeeper, as we have seen during this tournament.

And I think that was one of the doubts about the Dutch going into this tournament.

They've had a problem with goalkeepers in recent tournaments.

They might have found the answer with him.

Like Robin, I share not the greatest admiration for the Dutch team.

They seem a bit bitty.

Obviously, they've lost a couple of midfielders.

De Jong, not there.

De Jong and Koopmyers, yeah, yeah, yeah, who are both really, really good players.

And you, you

and Virgil.

Virgil.

Now, again, you can go into this club rivalry thing, right?

You criticise Virgil, you get it, right?

Yeah,

but he's not quite the player he was, is he?

Very, very interesting.

I was with,

after that game, I was with Dutch fans,

and they were not very complimentary about him at all.

Oh, okay.

They wanted him dropped.

Wow.

But it was strange because obviously, speaking to kind of the English media, we hold him, you know, he's King Virgil.

And it was very strange hearing them say, oh, no, no, no, we don't like, no, we think, I'm not going to repeat what they said, but

not very complimentary, you know, very, not good.

I hate talking about body language, but he's just constantly, and he's not been very convincing as a defender, but just always very kind of moany and pointy and shouty at his teammate, the Dutch.

Yeah, when players point,

you tend to think,

yeah, that's because you can't do the running anymore.

Possibly it's just Nachard, right?

And we haven't really talked about that much.

Yeah.

But are we looking at so many elite players who are just

after season Qatar, season this, or whatever the order is?

That's been a big theme of the tournament, really, because you think of the major stars that haven't shone, Mbappe being the biggest, biggest are, of course.

I mean, obviously, he's broken his nose, but there are so many like Grezman, you know, if you think that French team, and you look at the England team,

even the Germans ran out of puff, didn't they?

You know, and it's, it's,

it's hard because they've, yeah,

there's a different intensity.

There's a more, the psychological factors of playing international football must be far greater than playing just club football week on, week on week.

You can see it, and actually, a lot of the teams that we've enjoyed are those with players that have played that have been fresh.

True.

I mean, and I haven't done enough research, but like, there are there are players who are not as elite who seem to have loads of energy, and they must have played bucket loads of football.

Like, so that's the thing that I don't quite understand.

But, you know, I suppose if you're top players, you go to all the finals.

But someone like Goulet, yeah, who's at Real Madrid, hasn't played much, has been an absolute star of the tournament.

And he's been fresh.

He's young as well.

And actually, that's one of the things, isn't it?

That this tournament has had a lot of young stars, which you don't often have in major tournaments.

It tends to be, you know, the more experienced players come through.

But then you have Roderie, don't you?

It was that rest, that rest before Luton has clearly done wonders.

But Roderick, Roderick's only 27, as we've established.

He's just the oldest 27-year-old in the world.

He really is.

I'll tell you who's got energy, Barry, and that is Big Vout because he did change it when he came on, didn't he?

I'm looking forward to seeing him up against England.

Actually, that will be intriguing.

I wonder if he might start actually but um probably not but uh yeah he he he made a big difference when he came on because when he did come on I was like right are they going to get balls into the box for for him uh and they did um he he didn't score obviously and arguably his greatest uh contributions were in defense because yeah he did prevent a what looked a certain goal after

a shot had been cleared and he he was sitting on the ground, stuck out a foot and managed to stop them from scoring what looked like a certain goal.

So,

you know, he was quite the figure of fun when he was over here.

And

it seems quite unfair.

I still think back to that game against Argentina.

Like, he was brilliant when he came on

in the World Cup, but not quite brilliant enough, but he was just superb.

Is he still at Burnley?

He is.

Is he still at Burnley?

Yeah, he's contracted to Burnley.

Was he there last year?

Maybe he's out on lawn somewhere.

On loan.

Maybe Scott Parker can lure him back with his woollen knits.

Possibly.

Not sure.

But, you know, and it was just that last Turkey had those chances, John, didn't they, at the end?

Not just to save from Verbruggen.

Like, they just had their moments.

And I think it's right.

Two goals so quickly for the Dutch just knocked it out of them.

But they still, I mean, they could have taken the extra time, which would be very sad for us to have two very late nights in a row.

But I was quite looking forward to it.

Yeah, the chaos they bring.

Can I mention a player that I've loved this tournament, Yilmaz?

Oh, I totally agree.

I'm trying to remember the Randy Crawford song that it reminds me of.

Do you know this one?

Almaz, you lucky, lucky boy.

I don't know it.

Born in a world of something or other.

No, it's

some of your older listeners will know this.

Good.

It's a deep cut from Bruin.

It's a lovely record.

My mum used to play it in our Metro.

But anyway,

anyway, so when I see him, I'm thinking of a Randy Crawford song.

Make it sound like your mum had a record player in her Metro, which is, I mean,

that's possible given your music love.

It stemmed from putting 145

in the front seat of the Metro.

It was a cassette player, with your name, with a bit of Jethro Tull, a bit of a Zeppelin.

It was amazing.

But anyway,

when I think of him, apart from the Randy Crawford, I think of one of those hard-working strikers that just chases every ball.

You know,

who can we compare him to?

Like a Craig Bellamy is fieriest, you know, that sort of just going after every ball.

And those are the players that you love to watch at tournaments.

And that's why the Turks have been so wonderful to watch in the tournament, is because every ball is fought for.

Everything is.

That chaos element that you want in a tournament, that chaos element where

you finish the game and it's like really, you know, you have no skin in the game at all, but you're just like, that was fantastic.

And they've supplied that in this tournament, game upon game, and it'll be really missed.

Yeah, as Paul says, has Barris Jumaz done more running than Russ Cook Hardus Geezer, that guy that ran the whole of Africa in Germany this tournament?

I'd love to see how many more K's he's done than you know, Big H up top for England, but you never know that it could all come good.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll get to the semifinals.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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A proper football journalist, mate.

Exactly.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So let's do Spain-France shall we?

Pedro's out of the tournament, actually, which is a great shame, isn't it?

After that, Tony Crowe's tackle.

Tony Crowe has apologised to him.

Danny Olmo obviously did really well.

I mean, this Robin is the best team left against

one of the least interesting, one of the two least interesting teams left.

Yeah.

Can I just say,

if it does come to pass that it's a France-England final, should we just skip to the penalties straight away or just skip straight away to that?

Yeah, I mean,

it's a tough one to call.

I mean, on paper and on the evidence of this tournament, Spain should absolutely wipe the floor with France.

France have an excellent keeper.

I think

he's had a really good tournament.

But yeah, they've been, I mean, I mean, on the statistics, even worse than England because they haven't actually scored for open play from their own player yet.

So that's one up on them.

You know, at least we've done that.

I mean, Spain, they showed a few vulnerabilities in there against Germany.

But overall, they've looked the best team by far

over this tournament consistently.

And yeah, it's a shame they've got those suspensions.

I think Muratt is available, though,

isn't he uh because he wasn't actually booked right um so even though maybe he doesn't look like he contributes much i think he is quite important um to be that focal point so um yeah so no yeah an interesting one i mean is it okay to say i feel really sorry for mbappe actually he just looks so uncomfortable the whole time it's just and you know he got a little knock the other the other night and he just said oh i felt didn't feel right so that's why i had to come off and couldn't take the penalty it's just it's just so unfortunate because clearly he's he's being very limited to what he can actually provide.

Which makes you think, right?

It's like the Kane conversation.

It's obviously different.

He's got a broken nose asleep, says he can't sleep.

But, like, if you're a man who can't sleep and you've got a broken nose, like, Barkler's quite good at football, you know, like, like, maybe just don't play.

Like, I know, like, it's true.

It's true.

It's, yeah.

I mean, I suppose you say, like, given what we've seen in the tournament, it's maintenance to win, but I wonder, Barry, given what we've seen in the tournament, France will somehow just do it.

i wouldn't be a bit surprised um

yeah i i mean

looking ahead to these games

obviously we have to do it well we don't but we we are doing it it just seems an exercise in absolute futility

because uh by every available metric and by the evidence of our own eyes spain should absolutely batter france and there's every chance that they will lose because it's been that kind of tournament Yeah, I mean, actually, what's interesting, I think, about this tournament and that England game specifically is that obviously previews we've established are generally an exercise in futility.

But now it feels like reviews of games are also an exercise in futility.

It's a big issue.

Well, it's for the profession that we have chosen.

You know, the fame, you know, I'm running out of superlatives.

I've completely run out of whatever the opposite of a superlative is when it comes to discussing England performances.

But look, the semi-finals are on in the middle of the week and they're in one of them.

So just every podcast we record is a complete waste of our time, our listeners' time,

everyone's time.

Do tune in, though.

There are so many other podcasts out there.

Yeah, stick with us if you don't mind, just for, you know, just until the end of the tournament, at least.

How do you see Spain, France going, John?

Yeah, Yeah, like everybody else, I sort of spy a French victory through the back door of some description.

Can we spare away from players who have actually played well for France?

Yes.

William Saliba has been magnificent.

Yeah.

As he has been all season.

Kunde, I think, is a good player for them.

I mean, it's just they're good at defending, aren't they?

And they've got that.

That ballast in front of them, in front of the defence.

The midfield that they've got is very, very powerful.

I think Kante's engine may well have blown after that early flourish.

But I do like him a lot as a player.

The thing is with Spain, I mean, you're looking at these two powers, you've got like essentially these are the two powers of the 21st century in Europe, aren't you?

Because we started with that Zidane era, it was replaced by Spain, and they played that football that

actually that was boring as well, wasn't it?

That suffocated.

Do you remember?

They just suffocated everyone.

International tournaments were just like, oh, well, Spain win by passing the ball around and scoring one goal.

Well, maybe France are going to do it a different way by just playing so bad and not even scoring goals and getting it done.

This is the new way, almost like a Wilson

model of achievement.

Got to say,

if you won a Euros without scoring a goal from open play, you would have to tip your hat.

You'd have to

be sensational.

It's absolutely brilliant.

The team that everyone always goes back to, who now look like the biggest group of flashing blades, you know, like

Harlem Grovecutters of Greece.

These team of Otto Ray Hargle

look like, you know,

these lads play for football like you wouldn't believe.

Drop them in Euro 2024 and be like, oh, Jesus, you know, look at this attacking player.

You know,

it has been,

listen, it has been attacking player played by lesser teams, including, but, and, but it feels like just this sort of

rolling franchises just sort of blundering into the final.

The indie movies are good, and yet, you know, we're still all just going to the big

billion-dollar box office.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

I'm just watching it, and it's like, yeah, I'm not sure if Mbappe's like new one's much good, you know, like the one with a mask.

Yeah.

And, you know, so Harry Kane's latest one's disappointing.

It's a bit of a plod.

It's a bit of a plod, but I'll still go see the next one.

Yeah, the Jude Bellingham extended universe really isn't happening for me, but hey.

But people will yell at us again for not being

bombastically positive about every bit of football that we've seen.

Yeah, well, they could go and watch the BBC then.

England Netherlands, then.

Look, we're going to do a...

Sorry, Barry, we're doing another exercise.

We're doing a full pod preview on Monday, apparently.

So we're doing literally the exercise in futility.

We can call it that on Monday.

But, you know, we'll talk to the guys who are out there who've watched all the England games as well.

Right.

Well, Monday is my day off, and this is the first time hearing about it.

Well, you don't have to do it.

So I might sit it out, but can I just do my contribution now?

Yeah, please.

England will win.

Okay, great.

That's it.

They will win.

I am telling you now, they will win.

I have never been more certain of anything in my life.

England will win that semi-final.

On penalties, extra time?

Doesn't matter.

What are we saying?

Penalties, extra time?

that's that's the thing we've found isn't it

but like it's a lesson for life isn't it nothing matters none of this matters it's it's a big needle match though isn't it because Kuhman has has a lot of beef oh yeah we get David Platt David Platt on the touchline to say come on Ronald you took a you you you should have been sent off

frankly linesman linesman

there we go so there's lots there'll be lots of narrative this one's for graeme taylor yeah absolutely

um Charlie says, hi, Max and Barry.

My friend Simon's a long-term listener to the pod.

I was wondering if Barry could give one of his typically hopeful best wishes to Simon and his fiancée, Caitlin.

To add some spice to this, for Simon Stagdu, we're going to Krakow and deliberately extended the stag for a day so we could watch the final of the Euros together as a group in the hope England would get there, as well as a wedding message.

Could Barry let us know how much he hopes this was a terrible decision?

Or if England go out in the semi-final, what a bunch of idiots we were for thinking this would happen.

Always enjoy the pod.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks, Charlie.

So Simon and Caitlin.

Well, I don't think there's any problem extending the final.

We've established England or extending

the stay to take in the final because we have established that England will be in it and will almost certainly win.

So that's probably...

I just hope.

I heard a story of some people who went to...

to Krakow on a stag do.

And I think there's one weekend of the year where no alcohol is served there.

Oh, I think it might be a religious festival or something.

So they were in Krakow on a stag do, and they could not get a drink.

So I really hope that's next weekend.

I really hope.

And otherwise, I can only wish Simon and Caitlin all the best for their short-lived marriage.

I wish people would, you know, send me material to work with.

Just give me two names.

It's not ideal.

It's not enough, is it?

I need material.

okay, fine.

But yeah, it won't last, will it?

Nothing ever lasts.

Well, I don't know.

She'll find someone better.

Will Caitlin?

Well, nothing matters.

We know that.

Nothing matters, but true love does last, Barry.

Caitlin's probably settling.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day.

And

she told me that a friend of hers was getting married to someone.

And she's not that into them.

Oh, God.

But she's just settling because she reckons she's not going to do any better.

Oh, and I say,

Does it do a lot of

many people do that?

And she goes, Oh, yeah, loads.

I know loads of women who've done that.

Feels like a good place to end this.

Uh, that I'll do then.

Thank you, John.

Well, thank you.

Yes, cheers.

Thank you, Robin.

Thanks, Max.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Christian Bennett.

This is The Guardian.