Euro 2024 preview: Groups A and B … including the hosts, Germany – Football Weekly

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Speaker 11 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 11 It's Euro 2024, the latest men's tournament where England are somehow favorites and will all, well, I will get excited before going out on penalties to Portugal or something.

Speaker 11 So, here's the start of our pod previews. Going alphabetically, as you always should, today's Group A and B International Fitbar.

Speaker 11 Ewan Murray is here to tell us if Scotland can get out of a group for the first time in their history.

Speaker 11 A big way to start the whole thing against hosts Germany, who've gone from hopeless a year ago to actually quite good. Archie's here to tell us how good.

Speaker 11 Then Dark Horse Watch begins with Hungary and Expecting Not a Lot Watch begins with Switzerland. Group B has one of the games of the opening round, Spain versus Italy.

Speaker 11 No one's quite sure how good either of them are, but Sid and Nikki will know better than anyone. Croatia joined them.
Surely by now they must be, you know. Come on, that's the question you all want.

Speaker 11 And good luck, Albania. We'll do some AOB on Wolves Sad VAR vote and a 31-year-old managing Brighton.
We'll answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 11 on the panel today barry glen denning welcome hello hello jonathan wilson morning how you doing i'm very good hi nikki bandini morning and uh for part one group a part uh archie rin tutt hello hello and you and murray hello morgans So I feel like this is too many people for a podcast, but we'll give it a go, see what happens.

Speaker 11 Archie, you're in Germany. Are they excited? Is there a lot of it's coming home energy?

Speaker 10 You're really showing off all all that German you learnt once upon a time, huh, Max?

Speaker 9 Thanks so much.

Speaker 10 So I think the the mood was lifted most of all by the two friendlies that were played in March against France and the Netherlands when Julian Nagelsmann picked six new faces for that squad.

Speaker 10 And alongside that, they changed the way that they played to mirror a lot more, I'd say, what Leverkusen and Stuttgart have done in the Bundesliga this season.

Speaker 10 And since then, the mood has really lifted.

Speaker 10 You have to play this off against a background of what I would say is political worry in Germany when the European elections, which came through on Sunday, saw a rise

Speaker 10 in what the far right, the alternative for Germany, the RFD party, have got. And that is, I think, quite sombering for the country right now.

Speaker 10 In terms of the football side of things,

Speaker 10 there's hope that this tournament can maybe

Speaker 10 bring more of the country together. But as you can see, it's going to be

Speaker 10 the most interesting thing about it, I think, is to see that actually where the RFD have done very well is almost it's identical to where the where the border was drawn for East Germany.

Speaker 10 So, and the country is Germany as a whole

Speaker 10 is hosting that most of the stadiums are not there. You have Leipzig and that's it.
Berlin, I would say,

Speaker 10 does not really count to that. So

Speaker 10 how this tournament plays out

Speaker 10 is

Speaker 10 going to be, I think it's crucial how Germany get off to, on the football side of things, how they get off to a, if they get off to a good start against Scotland, because they've lost their opening game in each of the last three major tournaments.

Speaker 11 So, yes, so Group A is Germany, Scotland, Hungary, and Switzerland. Germany, the third favourite.
Julian Nagelsman, their manager. They've won it three times, 96, the most recent.

Speaker 11 I can't remember that particular tournament. Barry, you have told me all week how much research you've been doing.

Speaker 11 What have you got on the Germans?

Speaker 1 Well, I suppose it's like like Artie said six months ago, the Germans were dreading this tournament. Now they're really looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 They've had the controversy in the build-up where both Julian Nagelsman and Joshua Kimmich came out strongly condemning a survey conducted by some broadcaster, was it? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Where they asked participants if there should be more white players in the German team, which just seems a crazy thing to do in this day and age, or at any time.

Speaker 1 And Julian Nagelsman said, look, this question is insane. And I hope I never have to read about such a crap survey again.
So you would hope that will further help

Speaker 1 unite the squad. There are some conspicuous absentees, Leon Goretzka, Serge Nabry, Hummels, who's obviously made quite a lot of noise about being left out.

Speaker 1 in the process, sort of demonstrating why he's been left out. Julian Brandt, Nicholas Sewell, Emre Chan are all missing from the squad, but it still looks pretty

Speaker 1 solid. And I suppose my main concern for the Germans would be where the goals are going to come from.
Kai Havertz won't be playing left-back, I think we can safely assume.

Speaker 1 But if he's in a false nine-roll, maybe

Speaker 1 will he score goals for them? And yeah, I just wonder, can Germany be considered dark horses for their own tournament, even though they're Germany? Maybe.

Speaker 11 Yeah, actually, that front three ofts have it to Masiallarachi is

Speaker 11 enigmatic. It's tantalizing and enigmatic.
It could be amazing. It might be flat.

Speaker 10 Yeah, and what Barry says there about the goals is, I think, the biggest problem and a thread that has run through

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 10 team in terms of their failures at the past three last at the last three major tournaments.

Speaker 10 Nicholas Fulkrug made a good impression in 2022 in Qatar, but Julian Argsman has made it clear that Kai Havertz will be first choice for now. And this is the thing is that

Speaker 10 there is a lot of potential with Germany going forward, but I think that there are also big questions still to be answered about

Speaker 10 how they are defensively. And the biggest debate, I would say, around any position right now is in goal.
Manuel Neuer

Speaker 10 has undoubtedly had a tremendous career and at 38 has done very well to come back from this leg break that he had.

Speaker 10 But in five of the last six games he's played for club and country, he has made at least one big error.

Speaker 10 And when there is somebody like Mark Andre Testegan behind him, who was the the goalkeeper in the France and the Netherlands game and didn't do badly at all,

Speaker 10 then I think that Neuer

Speaker 10 should be one big mistake away from losing his position. The problem with this is the past personal history between Nagelsmann and Neuer, because Neuer's

Speaker 10 goalkeeping coach, Tony Topalovich, who he worked with at Bayern for so long, was sacked

Speaker 10 after he got injured because he didn't get on with Nagelsmann. There were accusations of him,

Speaker 10 of Topalovich leaking information

Speaker 10 to the rest of the squad, which Neuer

Speaker 10 denied. But there was this quote from Neuer saying that

Speaker 10 his heart bled because Topalovich left. And what was interesting is that in December on one of the biggest

Speaker 10 sporting TV shows in Germany, when Nagsman was trying to create this mood of upheaval, he said that Manuel Neuer will be my number one goalkeeper no matter what.

Speaker 10 And even after the mistake against Greece, the final friendly that Germany played, he said, I'm not going to create any discussions. Manuel Neuer is still going to be my number one.

Speaker 10 So it feels like he's a little bit of a prisoner to his fate here, Nagsman, in that

Speaker 10 he has to commit to Neuer, and it's about trying to create as little discussion as possible. But I think that there is still doubt over whether he he is the right number one for Germany right now.

Speaker 12 Archie on this this point you made about the East-West split and only Leipzig hosting games in the East I think I'm right in the Germany squad there's only Tony Kroos and Maximilian Bayer were born in the East.

Speaker 12 Rudiger's from Berlin. I'm not sure.
He's Neukern. I don't know if that's was East or West of the Wall.
But if you're saying Berlin's a separate entity, there's only the two of them are from the East.

Speaker 12 Is there any significance in that? And does that affect how the East or the former East views the squad?

Speaker 10 It's really difficult to judge how much of an impact that has, because there's not really much discussion of it in

Speaker 10 Germany when it comes to looking at the squad. It's not split.
It's not split down.

Speaker 10 It's not looked at as I think we would

Speaker 10 in that regard.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 10 it's a difficult one to judge. There's so many players with double nationalities as well and

Speaker 10 that's been a very common theme

Speaker 10 in past tournaments as well. And that was the point also to come back to what Barry was saying, that was the point that was trying to be got across here by this public broadcaster documentary.

Speaker 10 which was trying to look at the diversity in the national team. And I think

Speaker 9 where it fell down

Speaker 10 was in becoming so inflammatory and not being constructive enough with

Speaker 10 the kind of debate that it was trying to create. And there is extra sensitivity in Germany

Speaker 10 regarding these kinds of debates before international tournaments because of a controversy that there was in 2018 with Meza Ursil

Speaker 10 and Ilkai Gundawan having their photo taken with

Speaker 10 Turkish president Rasat Tayyip Erdogan. You had as well

Speaker 10 the whole affair with the One Love arm band and

Speaker 1 what

Speaker 10 the Germany team, how the Germany team protested there in Qatar.

Speaker 10 And I think that the reaction from Nagsman and Kimmish was almost less about the issue and as much as trying to get anything non-football away from the team as quickly as possible because those

Speaker 10 two

Speaker 10 events in particular were seen as having a very damaging effect on it.

Speaker 7 I was just curious, Archie, because I know we're going to get to Hungary.

Speaker 7 Obviously, you just touched on the One Love Armbands and that whole sort of saga, but there was also the whole issue at the Euros of whether or not Germany are going to be allowed to light up their stadium LGBT colours and then there was a celebration.

Speaker 7 Is there some lasting bad blood with Germany and Hungary because of everything that went on at that time?

Speaker 7 Because I remember the Hungarian fans and the German squad seemed to be slightly at odds with each other at that point.

Speaker 10 And the person who made the biggest gesture

Speaker 10 against the Hungary fans was Leon Goretzka with his celebration after, which was very pointed, I thought.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 the thing is, is that I don't think there's a traceable

Speaker 1 off-the-field rivalry as such.

Speaker 10 I'd say politically, there is,

Speaker 10 given what Victor Orban stands for.

Speaker 10 But mostly, it's, I would say,

Speaker 10 on a football side of things, Hungary have become a bogey team for Germany, because also since then, Hungary have beaten them again

Speaker 10 in the Nations League. So it's...

Speaker 10 It's a really difficult game for Germany, and why it adds extra importance to that opener against Scotland that they are able to win that and to create the kind of atmosphere where they can pull people in the country along with them.

Speaker 11 Well,

Speaker 11 it's a nice place. And let's hold off Hungry, Wilson.
I can see you're like a coiled spring. And let's go to Scotland first, Ewan.

Speaker 11 You know, they've never been out of a group. They've been knocked out.
of the group stages three times, 2020 the last time. Patrick Schick from the halfway line, wasn't it, that game?

Speaker 11 In my mind, Ewan, the opening game has more upsets than anyone. I mean, I'm basing this on nothing, but I feel like it's a good time to cause an upset.

Speaker 9 That's probably true. Senegal against France, for example, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I can see both sides of that.

Speaker 9 One, I mean, a lot of people have said, good time to get Germany, that's when you want them.

Speaker 9 I watched that Germany, I detest international friendlies, but for some reason, I watched that Germany against France game in March, and I was

Speaker 9 a little bit anxious having seen how good Germany were in that game because as Archie said that there was a kind of air of doom and gloom around them not long before but I I watched them in that friendly and thought wow okay they're back to be in Germany again.

Speaker 9 I wasn't at base level Germany have far better players than Scotland.

Speaker 9 Opening game, big occasion, the kind of thing you would expect Germany will be up for at home in their own country and should have enough to beat Scotland.

Speaker 9 I I think Scotland have to concentrate on getting four points from the the other two games, which again will be easier said than done.

Speaker 9 But I would still be very, very surprised if they take anything from Friday.

Speaker 9 I don't quite buy into the fact you might catch Germany on the hop or nervous or not at it in the first game.

Speaker 9 I think they have the quality and experience that should be too much for Scotland on Friday.

Speaker 11 Is there a nervousness, Ewan, that the tournament hasn't come around quick enough for Scotland?

Speaker 11 You know, just at qualification, they were on this real crest of a wave and it's kind of slipped recently.

Speaker 9 Yes, a couple of things have happened there.

Speaker 9 One, they deliberately took some very difficult friendlies because they're going into the the top section of the Nations League, they're going to play better teams.

Speaker 9 So, you know, they played England and are friendly, they played France, they played the Netherlands and lost these games.

Speaker 9 Um, but they also lost to Northern Ireland, they also drew with Georgia, they lost to Spain at the end of the group section.

Speaker 9 So, they went on this run, you know, you're right, it felt like crest of a wave, confidence was high, I think probably too high.

Speaker 9 Um, and then they went on this run of seven games and they didn't win until they went to Gibraltar and kind of you know stumbled past that.

Speaker 9 That's unfair, stumbled, but they weren't particularly free-flowing against Gibraltar last week and then threw away a two-goal lead against Finland. So, so that's one thing.

Speaker 9 The form has not been very good. As I say, I don't mind that because I think confidence, almost expectation, was a little bit too high.
And I think when Scottish teams get in that place,

Speaker 9 it's not good. And the other thing was there's been a lot of injuries, a lot of disruption, a lot of chopping and changing with the squad, which obviously you know the manager couldn't foresee.

Speaker 9 It's not affected the spine of the team yet, but it has limited the options that Steve Clark has, and

Speaker 9 it's been a messy build-up in that sense. So I think when you put those things together, people are a little bit more downbeat about their chances than they would have been six, eight months ago.

Speaker 11 Barry, how beat are you? How on the upbeat, downbeat scale with Scotland are you?

Speaker 1 Well, when I look at their starting 11, it looks to me, and I suspect June will will probably agree with me for once, it looks very unbalanced.

Speaker 1 You know, you've Tierney Robertson, Gilmore kind of down one side and then Henry Rawlson McGregor in the other. And it looks a bit light up front.
But I think

Speaker 1 they should definitely get out of this group. I

Speaker 1 don't

Speaker 1 think Switzerland are going to be up to much. It's very much an expendables, one last job about them.
We'll get to them in a minute, I suppose.

Speaker 1 Hungry, I'm not sure what to expect. But if I was a Scotland fan and they failed once again to get out of a group that I'm not going to say is this easy, but is this get outable,

Speaker 1 get out of a bull? I would be bitterly disappointed.

Speaker 9 I mean, it's quite right that this historical thing is raised. They've never got out of a group.
Perfectly factually correct. But, you know, it's not an exact point in the sense that...

Speaker 9 Well, one, the European Championships has never been easier to get out of a group than it is now. That's just a technical point, the way the tournament is set up.
And two,

Speaker 9 you know, it's not Steve Clark's fault, or it's not this squad's fault that they'll never get out of a group. So they kind of get hit with this all the time.

Speaker 10 I think a little bit unfairly.

Speaker 1 Well, that's not really the point. They should get out of this group if they have anything about them.

Speaker 9 I don't know about that.

Speaker 9 The Swiss are a very experienced tournament team, which Scotland are not yet. And Hungary, look, Jonathan will tell us better.
Hungary, to me, look a decent team.

Speaker 9 So I don't know if they should get out of the group. They could get out of the group.

Speaker 1 I think saying saying they should is a little bit strong in my view i i don't think so i mean you can't go looking at this group on we we need we have to get out of this

Speaker 7 can i ask about um because i i think as as someone who has a reasonably european focus but can't watch every league obviously i don't get to watch as much spl as as you do uh ewen uh and uh shea adams of course up front you wrote in your preview you're probably going to get the nod up front but someone who we do get to see a lot more being based in england lawrence Lawrence Shankland has been banging goals in for the last two years for Hearts.

Speaker 7 I don't get to see him very much. I was just curious if you could tell us something about because I do feel like

Speaker 7 perhaps I'm falling too much into cliche, but I expect this Scottish team to take a reasonably defensive approach overall. And so, the question is: where do the goals come from when

Speaker 7 you find those moments?

Speaker 9 Yeah, the answer is midfield, hopefully.

Speaker 9 The strongest part of this team is a midfield.

Speaker 9 When you have Billy Gilmore, Callum McGregor, John McGinn, Scott McTominay, I think will be the starting four, with McTominay and McGinn further forward, and Gilmore and and McGregor sitting.

Speaker 9 The team is kind of built around that midfield setup. That's their strong suit, even in reserve.
They have good players.

Speaker 9 Ryan Christie, who had a fantastic season at Bournemouth, in a deeper role than we'd been accustomed to seeing him in.

Speaker 9 So the midfield is a strength, and McTominay has been, you know, semi-prolific as a goal scorer for Scotland, which helps. John McGinn scores a lot of goals, which has massively helped.

Speaker 9 And Nikki, you're right. Adams is not a prolific goal scorer, but Adams is very useful to this team because of his movement, his hold-up play, his ability to stretch defences.

Speaker 9 That's where his strength lies.

Speaker 10 But they need,

Speaker 9 you know, I was struck at the Gibraltar game especially last week, they need those midfielders and dare I say defenders to pop up and finish some chances because they're not a team that's going to score a lot, and they're not a team who, with Shea Adams, again, you're absolutely right, has a striker who's going to

Speaker 9 bang in umpteen goals in this tournament. So it it puts pressure on other parts of this side, which has worked in the past but you know it's dangerous we have to completely rely on that

Speaker 11 phil says literally no one is talking about hungary they have a really strong team now unbeaten in qualifying and don't forget massacred england 4-0 at wembley what are the panel's thoughts managed by uh marco rossi uh third place in 1964 wilson i'm sure you'll tell us all about that uh right now um uh last time out they finished top but they finished bottom of that group of death didn't they france germany portugal but they pushed those sides a lot where are Hungary at, Wilson?

Speaker 12 They're pretty good. I mean, that 4-0 game, which I think was at Molyneux rather than at Wembley, I think you've got to take that slightly with a pinch of salt because England were knackered.

Speaker 12 Nobody wanted to be there. It was the end of the sort of post-COVID season.
So I think that's a slightly false scoreline. Nonetheless, they were

Speaker 12 much, much better than England that day. They have beaten Germany in Nations League.

Speaker 12 They finished above Serbia in qualifying. It wasn't the hardest group.
There were 13 games unbeaten. And then they lost to John O'Shea's Island, which

Speaker 12 not many teams do that if they're not Gibraltar. So that's raising concerns.

Speaker 1 He's only managed three games. Well, sorry.

Speaker 12 John O'Shea in brackets, apostrophe S, Ireland. Ireland don't beat many teams these days who aren't Gibraltar.

Speaker 12 Is that more accurate? You're happy with that, Barry?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'll give you that.

Speaker 12 But I thought what was really telling about that game, and maybe it's something that should give Scotland some hope, is that the way Ireland's set up, the 3-4-2-1,

Speaker 12 isn't that different to how Scotland's set up. The way Hungary play,

Speaker 12 Marco Rossi is a relationist. I don't know if we want to get into the

Speaker 12 very, very tedious debate about the difference between relationalism and positionism.

Speaker 12 But essentially, positionism is you believe there are fixed positions on the pitch, you should have a fairly solid structure. Relationalism is you think everything should be relative.

Speaker 12 Most coaches are somewhere in between the two, but Rossi is definitely on the relationship side, which I think when you're attacking can make you quite unpredictable.

Speaker 12 And I think that's one of the things that the likes of England and Germany have struggled with.

Speaker 12 However, it does make you very vulnerable to the counter-attack, and that was what Ireland were successful in taking advantage of. So I can,

Speaker 12 I'm frankly kind of amazed that teams before Ireland haven't picked them off like that.

Speaker 12 But if Hungary have the ball, their front three, Soboslai, Sholloi, playing behind, Barnabash Varga, have been very effective.

Speaker 12 They came back after the island game to beat Israel 3-0. Varga scored two set, the other one.
His relationship with Sholloy is very good.

Speaker 12 So they are a real danger. But I just sort of think if you're sold enough against them, they will give you chances.

Speaker 1 Jonathan, tell us a bit about Callum Stiles, who spent the season on lawn at Sunderland. He's playing for Hungary.

Speaker 12 Yeah, he's got Hungarian parentage. He's learning Hungarian.

Speaker 12 I have to say, I didn't realise he was Hungarian until I was asked about it. I was in Budapest at a conference a couple of months ago, and I was suddenly asked, oh, how's Callum Stiles getting on?

Speaker 1 I was like, Why do you care about that?

Speaker 12 And then discovered he was, in fact, Hungarian. So, yeah, he's,

Speaker 12 yeah, it's,

Speaker 12 I don't know if it's a grandparent.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's on his mom's side.

Speaker 11 Was the conference about Callum Styles? Was it a Callum Stiles conference, or was it a broader topic than that?

Speaker 1 Callum Khan.

Speaker 10 It was

Speaker 12 about

Speaker 12 East and West in football.

Speaker 12 The extraordinary thing there was was the president of Fernsvaros,

Speaker 12 whose name escapes me.

Speaker 12 He's an MP for Fides. I think he's only spoken in Parliament twice in 15 years or something.

Speaker 12 And I was sort of wondering, I wonder if I can get him to talk about the politics and Orban and everything.

Speaker 12 And literally, the first sentence he said was, Yeah, people ask me how I get players to come to Fernsvaros. Well, I say to them, We're a proud Christian country of a thousand years' heritage.

Speaker 12 We've stopped the immigrants at the border, and we don't have any gender ideology here, so it's safe to walk the streets at night. And you're thinking, Jesus, like if that's your first line,

Speaker 12 yeah, Oban's influence over football is very pervasive. I think that's fair to say.

Speaker 12 But it should be said that one of the reasons Hungary have improved is the tax breaks that have been given to football clubs and to encourage investment in football.

Speaker 12 So, Orban, clearly, an awful, awful, awful bloke.

Speaker 12 But

Speaker 12 I think 40-odd stadiums have been renovated. I think something like over 4,000 pitches have been

Speaker 11 trains are running on time.

Speaker 12 The football has got better.

Speaker 12 That's the trains running on time for Hungary.

Speaker 1 The trains are running on time and Dominic Sabozlo.

Speaker 7 Nationalist right-wing government's wanting to have their football and sports teams be successful. That's not exactly a new trend.

Speaker 12 No, no, it's not. But he has been successful.
A lot of them are quite bad at it.

Speaker 9 The trains are not running on time down to Scotland's training base and Garmish Part and Kirchen because half the line is underwater.

Speaker 11 So John McGinn out with some sandbags.

Speaker 1 What's happening?

Speaker 9 I'm not the Scottish pop culture, wet, wet, wet. But

Speaker 9 in this area, it has bucketed down for days. It's going to keep bucketing down.

Speaker 9 There's been flooding, obviously, it's been reported, but you know, I'm going to Scotland's training ground shortly, and I'll be intrigued to see what kind of state the pitch is in because it has been,

Speaker 9 you know, there has been the odd break in it, but it's been torrential and it looks to reach over for the rest of the week.

Speaker 11 So we might have John McGinn and flippers.

Speaker 1 I saw a video of John McGinn dancing with a in Bavarian. Yeah, that was great.
A Tyraline hat to an oomper band yesterday.

Speaker 1 Which was fun.

Speaker 11 Oh, good for John. Let's talk about Switzerland then, managed by Maret Yakin.

Speaker 11 Got to the quarterfinals last time, didn't they? Lost to Spain on penalties. They were the dark horse.
Barry, you say they're the extendables. Is Jordan Shakiri in the sliced alone role here?

Speaker 1 He's still there. He's expected to play.
He's playing MLS football at the moment. I can't remember with whom.

Speaker 1 Someone told us on the radio yesterday he hasn't really been pulling up any trees in this state, but you look at the

Speaker 1 likely starting 11, you know, Sommer, Shahr, Fruller, Jakow, Vidmer, Shakiri. There's a lot of familiar faces there.

Speaker 1 There is a concern about,

Speaker 1 once again, where the goals will come from. Briel Mbomo Mbolo is still knocking around.
He hasn't played much. He's been out injured.

Speaker 1 Zeke Amduni didn't do a great deal at Burnley this season. Noah Okafor is their Milan player.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 there's a lot of experience there, but it might be players who are past their best.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the manager is not popular with the Swiss players or Swiss public and has, I think, been criticised by some of the players as well. Granite Jack has

Speaker 1 publicly criticised him, so that's not a great sign. Yeah, they have a lot of experience, but I think Scotland should be beating them.

Speaker 11 Well, that'll do for part one, because Sid is knocking on the door, you know, and it's very rare that he does knock on the door, so you've got to take it when it happens. Thank you, Ewan.

Speaker 11 Thanks, Archie. Cheers.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 11 Thank you. We'll be back in a second.

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Speaker 2 Coach, the energy out there felt different. What changed for the team today?

Speaker 3 It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 1 Play is everything.

Speaker 3 Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 4 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 3 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game. That's all for now.

Speaker 1 Coach, one more question.

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Speaker 11 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly Group B, then Spain, Croatia, Italy, Albania. I mean, the closest thing probably to a group of deaths.
Sid joins us. Welcome, Sid.

Speaker 10 Good morning. How are you?

Speaker 11 Yeah, very good. Thanks.
So, so talked about Spain, managed by Luis Delafuente, who was promoted from within from the Under 21. Is he the Spanish Gareth Southgate?

Speaker 10 No

Speaker 10 and I think he very definitely isn't both politically and socially as well as as a manager.

Speaker 10 I think they're on the same page in that sense.

Speaker 10 He's someone who actually I think there was a lot of doubt about him internally when he was first named, not least because, of course, he's come through the system.

Speaker 10 And some of the people who followed Spain at youth level were happy enough that

Speaker 10 this was a guy who managed the youth teams well, that got good results results with them. But there was always that sense that there was kind of something not quite there.

Speaker 10 But what's happened over the last,

Speaker 10 what is it, about 18 months or so? I'm not exactly sure how long he's been in charge now.

Speaker 10 Of course, they started really badly, this qualifying campaign, were beaten by Scotland, but then ultimately qualified really quite comfortably.

Speaker 10 And the really big thing is that they won the Nations League. Now, obviously, the Nations League in itself isn't a major trophy,

Speaker 10 but they won it.

Speaker 10 playing well against good sides and and it was just kind of that sense of them being reconnected with the idea that that this team can win, even if obviously it's not a Euros and it's not a major tournament.

Speaker 10 But I don't think the focus is really on him now. It was maybe a little bit to start with, as whether or not Spain actually have

Speaker 10 enough of the very, very best players to compete. And I think there's an enthusiasm now because the emergence of the two wingers of Nicar Williams and Lamine Yamal.

Speaker 10 And I think that's the thing more than anything else. that everybody's clinging to now.

Speaker 11 I guess that's a fun bit about international football, isn't it? You've got Williams, Yamal, you've got Pedri and Rodri, and you've still got

Speaker 11 Alvaro Murata as the centre-forward.

Speaker 11 It's that mix of really good and

Speaker 11 probably not as good.

Speaker 9 Well, Alvaro Murata is such a...

Speaker 10 I mean, we genuinely could be here all day talking about Alvaro Murata and trying to kind of unpack his

Speaker 1 kind of...

Speaker 10 I mean, I'm always very, very uneasy talking about Alvaro Murata because on the face of it, you feel like this is an entire kind of psychological case to talk about, you know, to talk about his emotional well-being, to talk about how he deals deals with kind of the pressure and so on.

Speaker 10 And there's lots and lots of cycles in his career where you think, okay, he's getting there. And then he sort of isn't again.

Speaker 10 And we see the fact that, and Nikki, I'm sure, will be able to tell you about this, that at the moment he's now being talked about possibly going back to Juventus.

Speaker 10 And you think it's kind of Juventus, Atlanta to go, Juventus, Atlantic, Juventus, Atlantico, throughout his entire career almost.

Speaker 10 And that feels symbolic of someone who somehow never quite feels at ease with where he is.

Speaker 10 Now, obviously, this is why I say I feel uncomfortable about it, because it's not for me to decide whether or not he's at ease, but there's always this feeling of something not quite being right.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's certainly the sense initially, just and since Prisida raised it, I think initially there was perhaps a feeling that actually he would have not really wanted to go back to Spain.

Speaker 7 I think especially because his wife is Italian and he's always seemed sort of quite content in that environment.

Speaker 7 Perhaps he would have been happiest to stay at Juventus.

Speaker 7 But it definitely feels like it's been a story of never quite finding the spot where you get to be the guy, which not every player needs, but I think centre-forwards in particular, you expect them to find their spot at some point where

Speaker 7 they're most at home.

Speaker 10 In a way, his place is found with the Spanish national team, not least, of course, because the nature of international football is you don't get to choose, you don't get to go somewhere else, you don't get to sign for someone else or go away and come back and go away and come back again.

Speaker 10 And in the national team, he's had this slightly strange

Speaker 10 kind of coexistence as well with the fans and with the environment around it.

Speaker 10 You remember the Euros during the pandemic, and Spain played at um la caduja down in down in the south in seville and it was only 13 or 14 000 i think were allowed in the stadium was relatively empty but still those that were there were whistling him and he had a lot of pressure put on him and he got whistled recently when splay spain played against brazil in a friendly i think partly because it was the burner bow and there's still that kind of club element that becomes part of it but there is this sense of kind of frustration with him and and him as

Speaker 10 again it's it's an uncomfortable word to use but him as the victim if you like of the spanish national team at the the same time as he's the captain, at the same time as he's got a really quite good goal scoring record, at the same time as within the group, absolutely everybody loves him.

Speaker 10 And in fact, again, playing that kind of amateur psychologist thing, and it's an uncomfortable role to play or an uncomfortable way of analysing him.

Speaker 9 At times, you look at me and think, is he just a bit too nice for this?

Speaker 10 You know,

Speaker 10 is there a sort of a hint of vulnerability about him? But in theory, at least, he will start up front for Spain, having just had, and this season is a perfect example, Max.

Speaker 10 And as I said, sorry because I did say we could spend the whole thing talking about Alvaro Murato couldn't sure no I'm ambitious he started really well didn't he there was a time when he was like he was just banging him away so this has this season I actually have this sat in front of me somewhere I can't I haven't got it to hand and I'll make you wait too long if I go and look for it but I'll give you roughly what I remember it as being and it might be fractionally off but this season has been his best goal scoring season and I think he's got to 23 goals or something like that but only two of those are since January now I say that two might be wrong it might be three it might be four but basically they all come up to Christmas.

Speaker 10 And at Christmas, we had this discourse. And in fact, I remember writing about him after the derby against Realmed back in September.
And he played brilliantly.

Speaker 10 And he talked about finding that emotional maturity. And so this is one of the other things about Moratis.

Speaker 10 I think sometimes we talk about him from a kind of, if you like, an emotional, psychological standpoint more than we should, because he does too. Because he offers this up, because he discusses this.

Speaker 10 And he said after that game, you know, it's a real pity that you don't find maturity until you're almost retired as a footballer.

Speaker 10 It's a really real pity that sometimes it takes you a long time to get here. But now I feel like I am there.
And I feel like I've found that peace with myself and that comfort and so on.

Speaker 10 The problem is, of course, we'd heard this from Mahim before. And the problem is, of course, now it hasn't happened in the second half of the season.

Speaker 10 Now, he could well argue and probably would and would be absolutely right too, that it's not about an emotional vulnerability.

Speaker 10 Now, it's about he's had injuries, that the form just hasn't happened and so on.

Speaker 10 But we do now look at this guy who absolutely will be Spain's centre-forward, at least to start with, and we think, is he quite right?

Speaker 10 Because the second half of the season has been really, really poor.

Speaker 11 Well, they credit him for finding maturity around 30 when I have yet to find it at

Speaker 1 45.

Speaker 1 Who are we? I mean, this is the other thing, isn't it? When you have a guard player, you look at yourself and think, hang on, what are we on about?

Speaker 11 I'm sitting in a cupboard and I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing in life generally.

Speaker 11 What about defensively, Sid? Because tournaments are won by good defenses, and yet we sort of don't talk about them half as much in previews like this.

Speaker 10 Yeah, Yeah, I suppose, I suppose that's true. Spain, of I mean,

Speaker 10 at the risk of how do I put this, at the risk of sounding like one of those guys, and allow me to say the thing that sounds like one of those guys, and then I promise I will back away from it.

Speaker 10 If you want to ask sort of what's Spain's defensive position, if I tell you that both the centre-backs are French, then that sort of tells you something about the search they've had.

Speaker 10 Now, again, I'm going to road back from that because I'm absolutely entitled. People are absolutely entitled to have dual nationality, absolutely entitled to have dual identity and feel themselves.

Speaker 10 But Emery leport and robert lenormand uh got spanish passports now play for the spanish national team um both of them grew up in spain in terms of their youth development at

Speaker 10 athletic club um but both french and both have played with france at youth level that i think tells you about the fact that spain weren't entirely sure about their central defenders um nacho in the end has gone there's been a lot about debate about him because obviously for a lot of this season he wasn't playing as much as he would like for real madrid although more than in previous seasons because madrid had injuries at centre-back.

Speaker 10 And actually, in truth, he wasn't always playing very well. In fact, to be honest, this has been one of his worst seasons until the last six or eight weeks when he's been brilliant.

Speaker 10 And of course, he's been brilliant in the biggest games of all with Real Madrid. So he's now going.
Paul Kulbasi, who's a 17-year-old central defender, started playing for Barcelona.

Speaker 10 I think his first game was away at Bettis in January, could it be, or back end of December. And he's been brilliant, really, just stunning.
Like, this kid is going to be amazing.

Speaker 10 But then had a bit of a wobble at the end and hasn't gone so he went in the main squad but hasn't gone so i think what we'll see with spain is we will probably see laporte and we will see him playing alongside lunar wand i think that's a really good centre-back partnership but it is one that hasn't had a huge amount of time together and then the fullbacks are obvious danny carla hal on one side at left back it's a little less obvious i think it will be grimaldo who of course has just had a great season so there's a degree of optimism that they can they can get it right defensively this time not least of course because the defensive midfielder in front of them is probably the one player they've got that absolutely is in the best two or three in the world in this position.

Speaker 10 And that's Roderick.

Speaker 1 Sid, is it a concern that Laporte has been playing in Saudi Arabia? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And in fact, funnily enough,

Speaker 10 I would suggest it's probably less of a concern now than it was when he first went.

Speaker 10 So in other words, when he first signs, everyone thinks, well, how can he carry on playing for Spain if he's gone there?

Speaker 10 He's played for Spain while being in in Saudi Arabia, hasn't looked horribly out of place.

Speaker 10 Admittedly, we're not absolutely sure because he joined the squad late this time because he was playing for the Saudi Arabian Arabian Cup. Um, but yes, there is a doubt about that, absolutely.

Speaker 10 And I think that might be the one thing that that ends up meaning that possibly he doesn't start, but I think he probably will.

Speaker 11 They play Italy, that sort of feels like the game of the group stages, Nikki. Uh, Spoletti's the manager, of course, they've won it twice, they won it the last time.
We remember it well.

Speaker 11 They didn't obviously qualify for the World Cup. So I don't know where are Italy at, Nikki.

Speaker 7 Yeah, you said at the start of this show, Max, we don't know if Spain and Ritali are good. And Sid and Nikki will clear that up for us.

Speaker 1 And I'm thinking to myself, I don't know if I can originally get good or not.

Speaker 7 They're a puzzle because in the end, Spoleti has had... very little time.
He came in halfway through the qualifying game when Mancini decided he was off to Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 7 And I feel very positively about Luciano Spoletti as a manager.

Speaker 7 I think when I look at all the managers in this competition, I think he's one of the best managers in the whole thing and that's a pretty nice thing to have

Speaker 7 in your corner. The squad has,

Speaker 7 I don't know if this is just

Speaker 7 my personal

Speaker 7 mix of

Speaker 7 obviously supporting Italy and also having that

Speaker 7 scaramanzieva, the sense of not wanting to be

Speaker 7 super of being superstitious about it, not wanting to jinx the team. But I do feel like when I look at the team,

Speaker 7 there are lots of players in it. I think, actually, this is not a bad squad.
There's some really good elements to it. And Spoleti has spoken before about

Speaker 7 the blocko inter, the inter block that you can rely on, and the fact that inter team was really good.

Speaker 7 And yeah, if you go through and start plugging all those players in, well, we've got Bastoni at centre-back, we've got Di Marco coming off a fantastic season who can play at left wing back, even though he was not great against Bosnia yesterday.

Speaker 7 We've got Barela in centre midfield, we've got Fratesi, who actually didn't even start for Inter for the whole season, but every time he pulls on an Italy shirt, it seems to score a goal.

Speaker 7 So, there's a core there that's very reliable. And then you've got, especially at certain positions, like centre-back, some really

Speaker 7 positive young players coming through, like Calafiori, who was fantastic for Bologna all season. Bon Giordano has a great season at Torino,

Speaker 7 and actually another Torino play Bellanova, who is interesting. So, there's lots of players who I look at and go, yeah, I quite like this, I quite like this.

Speaker 7 And then you go to the problem position, which has been been the problem position for Italy, it feels like, for for a long time now, several cycles of not really having a great number nine, and they haven't resolved that at all.

Speaker 7 Sid just talking about players who have dual nationality.

Speaker 7 Well, Matteo Rategi came in and suddenly started starting up front for Italy, having not even lived in Italy up until a year ago and quite quickly was scoring goals and like he might be the answer.

Speaker 7 But now, almost certainly, we think it's going to be Scamaka who starts up front because he's been barnstormingly good for atalanta in the last part of this season i genuinely would not shock me if he ends up going on to be euro 2020's top score 2024's top scorer with how good he's been in the last few months having said that he's played 16 games for itly so far and scored one goal for them so i don't know i don't know with any of these things how they all shake out i think there's potential in this squad to go really far if it all comes together.

Speaker 7 I also feel like, would I be totally shocked if they have three nil-mill draws and contrive a way to get out of the competition before it even gets going?

Speaker 7 It wouldn't shock me as much as I would like to say it would.

Speaker 11 Perhaps I'm mistaken, Nikki. So in my mind, you know, Italy centre-forwards are these sort of, should be these amazingly gifted, nippy players, but then in reality, it's like Scamaka or like Bellotti.

Speaker 11 I'm a sort of love it when he's big lump of a man, you know,

Speaker 11 Lukatoni.

Speaker 11 I mean, even like Vieri, right, was obviously brilliant, but still, like, there's a, there's a sort of big number nine culture around Italy, which actually you associate more with League One.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think it's, it's more that

Speaker 7 the,

Speaker 7 I suppose, the archetype,

Speaker 7 the player who everyone wanted to be in Italy for generations was Roberto Baggio. So you got a lot of number tens.
You got a lot of players who wanted to be in that sort of role.

Speaker 7 And it's not all directly linked to Baggio, but certainly you can go generation to generation, you go, well, you had Baggio, and then there was Totti and there was Del Piero.

Speaker 7 These were the players who we got excited about for attackers for Italy. It wasn't the guy leading the line, actually.
And I think perhaps that's still somewhat true. There isn't a great

Speaker 7 standout talent for just behind the attack right now. Federico Chiersa was supposed to be that, and then he's had injuries and poor form.

Speaker 7 And I think a lot of us are looking at the team and thinking, should he even start in this Euros? We don't know for certain if he will.

Speaker 7 But there's really a lot we don't know with this Italy side, by the way. When I say,

Speaker 7 keep saying I don't know, Spoletti played two different formations the last two friendlies, one with the back four and one with the back three. My sense is they're better in the back three.

Speaker 7 Again, relying on things that work for Inter and then plugging in players that can fit into that, I think is a good way to go. But there really is a lot in terms of the shape of things we don't know.

Speaker 7 And when you come to Behind the Attack, yeah, is it going to be Chiesa? Is it going to be Pellegrini who plays Behind the Attack for Roma?

Speaker 7 Are we going to see Fratiasi starting games there even though he doesn't for Inter.

Speaker 7 There's a lot of questions really everywhere. um and i think there's potential everywhere but there really isn't standout talent um

Speaker 11 uh in any of those spots and and i hope that you know if any italian defender makes a match-saving tackle game saving tackle it'll cut to the stands where bonucci and chiellini will be just like pushing each other in the chest just for old time's sake wilson wilson objectively how do you where do you see spain and italy who's it who do you believe will certainly win that game or go further in the tournament i i've certainly got a lot more confidence in spain put it that way

Speaker 12 I think Italy could be very good, but I think there's just a lot of unknowns. So

Speaker 12 I'd be surprised if Spain don't go through probably top of the group. I slightly worry about whether they're going to have enough goals in terms of winning the tournament, but

Speaker 12 Croatia are good.

Speaker 12 They beat Portugal in the most recent friendly. That midfield of Modric and Brozovic and Kovacic is

Speaker 12 still excellent.

Speaker 12 But there are clear weaknesses in that side.

Speaker 12 Albania, I think, are not good. I think it's a bit of a freak they mostly qualify.

Speaker 10 At the risk of kind of

Speaker 10 chucking earth over the entire, you know, the entire discussion of the group, at the risk of doing that, you sort of look at it, you think, well, yeah, but it may well be the top three all go through.

Speaker 10 So this group stage might turn out to be entirely irrelevant.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's true. I mean, I was just wondering, Barry, if Switzerland are the expendables, what are Croatia? The Marigold Hotel?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Last of the summer wide.

Speaker 1 They're definitely expendables too.

Speaker 1 Sorry, I completely forgot they were in this group.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Croatia.

Speaker 7 What does that say about Croatia in this tournament?

Speaker 1 No, Croatia, yeah,

Speaker 1 Last of the Summer Wine is probably a good analogy. Modric, Kovacic, and Brozovic, fun fact, have, I believe, 368 caps between them.
I mean, that's just ridiculous.

Speaker 1 They lost at home to Turkey and away to Wales in qualifiers.

Speaker 1 We've seen Wales kick on from that, obviously, with their heroic nil-nil draw against Gibraltar and emphatic defeat at the hands of Slovakia yesterday.

Speaker 1 And Croatia as well have never won a knockout game at the Euros, which surprised me. So they're very much a World Cup team, not necessarily a Euros team.
Duke Modric, we know.

Speaker 1 hasn't played a huge amount for Real Madrid this season, but is always impressed when he has come on for them.

Speaker 11 Yeah, when he's played, he's been very, very good.

Speaker 1 Their manager, to add to the last of the summer wine fee, he's

Speaker 11 rolling down a hill in a bath.

Speaker 1 Do you know what? If they were to win this tournament, I would hope that they would eschew the normal open-top bus and go around Zagreb in an absolutely massive bar.

Speaker 11 Those little green hats.

Speaker 1 Why not?

Speaker 11 With Nora Batty. Is his assistant Nora Batty? I hope so.

Speaker 1 I've been in Zagreb, and I can't remember if there's a suitable hill to put them in a bathtub and just push them down, you know, holding the trophy. But,

Speaker 1 yeah, their manager, Zlako Dalic, he's one of the longest-serving managers in the tournament as well. So

Speaker 1 you can't think they're tired at this stage.

Speaker 11 I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you look at the two, you know, they've obviously got Varadiol, he's a youngster, but the midfield, they're likely starting midfield three-year Brozovich, Kovacic, Modric. They have to be tired.

Speaker 11 Hey, Wilson, what have you got on Albania? Managed by Silvinio. Is it that Silvino?

Speaker 1 Yeah, Arsenal Silvino. Yes, it's that one.
Yeah, it is that Silvini.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 12 And also, helped by Pablo Zabaletta, but he so Silvinio lives in Tirana, but Zabaletta, I think, lives in Barcelona with his family. But they do Zoom calls.
And

Speaker 12 you do wonderful things by Zoom these days. We maybe should try it.
Yeah.

Speaker 12 I mean, they won only one of 11 games in 2022, and then they suddenly went on an eight-game game unbeaten run after Slovenia took over and that's why I say I think it's slightly freakish.

Speaker 12 He had a load of key players out. I mean Broyo being the one we probably know best and he's plucking players from nowhere.

Speaker 12 And then he seems to have done exactly the same again with this squad that he's left out

Speaker 12 three players who had been regulars from Chikileshi, Uzzuni and Bare.

Speaker 12 And the explanation as to why they've been left out seems pretty difficult to follow.

Speaker 12 I think even the Albanian journalists are a bit sort of baffled by that. So I think suddenly there's uncertainty there.
And recent results haven't been particularly good.

Speaker 12 They were well beaten by both Chile and by Sweden in the friendlies in March.

Speaker 10 We were talking before about how, in a way, this group feels kind of almost irrelevant because three might get through it.

Speaker 10 And so you look at Croatia, Italy, and Spain, and it's plausible, although obviously it will depend on the other groups, that all three go through, and therefore, ah, well, the group bit sort of doesn't matter.

Speaker 10 But for Albania, it does because they must have thought.

Speaker 10 They would have thought, given that three may go through from some groups, they would have thought if we've got an easy group, you never know, we might have been able to play a knockout game.

Speaker 10 And looking at it now, they probably feel they won't.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Albania are actually in an identical position to the Republic of Ireland at Euro 2012 when we had Italy, Croatia, and Spain. And so you did, yeah.
It went well for Ireland in that one.

Speaker 1 Played three, lost three,

Speaker 1 scored one, conceded nine. So good luck, Albania.

Speaker 12 But the fans did sing Field of Athena beautifully, and John Delaney got carried down the street with his shoes up.

Speaker 12 That was the...

Speaker 1 No, I think that was after Italy in 2016. I'm not sure.
Anyway,

Speaker 1 Ireland were in Sapot.

Speaker 10 Was it called Sapot? It was called Sapot, wasn't it? It's sort of a nice little resort just outside Gdans.

Speaker 10 And that was just brilliant. What a place to be.

Speaker 10 Because the Irish Team Hotel was there, but so were all of the fans. It was just a completely brilliant place to spend time.

Speaker 11 Just on Armando Brogia, rumours that Everton want him for 30 million. The Albanian fans must be praying that that doesn't go through before the tournament because then he's an Everton centre-forward.

Speaker 11 So he'll either get injured or certainly won't score any goals.

Speaker 1 I mean, he's only played about 80 minutes for Fulham this season. That lone spell from Chelsea was an absolute disaster.

Speaker 1 He just couldn't get in the Fulham team. I don't think he was even injured.
Maybe he was, but I don't think he was. He just wasn't getting picked.

Speaker 11 Yeah, two years ago, so I had him down as, you know, the next Harry Kane. I really did, yes, Nikki.

Speaker 7 I I was just going to say, it's tricky because I don't feel like I can sit here and give you the confident reasons because I can't say I watch their qualifying games, but we need to stress that Albania did finish top of their qualifying group.

Speaker 7 They didn't get here from winning a lucky dip. They're a good team.
And I think that assumption that they're necessarily finishing bottom of this group is a dangerous one.

Speaker 11 I'm glad somebody said that. So we can all, when they do go through, so we can all claim

Speaker 1 when actually only Nikki's in.

Speaker 11 It was all Mickey.

Speaker 12 I would say I'm more confident of anything else in this tournament. Al Bane will finish bottom of this group.

Speaker 11 Before we end part two, can we send our best wishes

Speaker 11 to Alan Hanson, legendary former Liverpool Scotland offender, seriously ill in hospital? Liverpool confirmed the news on Sunday afternoon.

Speaker 11 The club are providing support to the family of the 68-year-old, who many of you will know as an amazing centre-back and many will know as a brilliant pundit on match of the day.

Speaker 11 A statement read, the thoughts and support of everyone at Liverpool are with our legendary legendary former captain Alan Hanson.

Speaker 11 The club is currently in contact with Alan's family.

Speaker 11 Our thoughts, wishes and hopes are with Alan and all of the Hanson family. We'll provide any further updates as we receive them in due course.

Speaker 11 We request the Hanson family's privacy as respected at this time. We'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 11 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 11 Things that have happened that are not to do with the Euros. Wales not there.

Speaker 11 They're remarkable 0-0 draw with Gibraltar. Ellis James tweeting, trying to think of a worse Welsh result.
Off the top of my head, losing to Leighton Orient. But this is right up there.
Gibraltar.

Speaker 11 It's a rock the size of Port Talbot. They lost 4-0 to Slovakia last night.
Gibraltar ranked 203rd in the world.

Speaker 11 And we're playing an experimental side themselves as well, Barry.

Speaker 1 That's brutal.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's a shocking result, although it was quickly overshadowed by the USA

Speaker 1 beating Pakistan in the T20 cricket, which was an even bigger shock. So, yeah.
Wait a minute. Hang on.
Hang on. Hang on.

Speaker 10 The USA beat Pakistan?

Speaker 1 Yeah. In cricket.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 11 wasn't the man of the matches some kind of like so software? He's some software engineer for Google or some something.

Speaker 1 I don't know the details, but I was watching that. It was brazen.
It went to a a super overall.

Speaker 11 Does that mean Rob Page's job is safe because the USA beat Pakistan at the time?

Speaker 1 No, Rob Page, I think his job is very much on the line.

Speaker 1 Wales were booed off by

Speaker 1 their fans when they played Gibraltar.

Speaker 1 Another crescendo of booze last night, I think by a thousand or so travelling fans. And Rob Page was talking very much like a man who knows the writing is on the wall.

Speaker 11 Michael says, Wolves' idea of abolishing VAR has been voted down by 19 other clubs. Is this yet another example of the tyranny of the majority? Should Wolves be looking to sue the Premier League?

Speaker 11 But yeah, Premier League clubs have voted to preserve the use of video assistant referees in the competition, pledged to improve the performance of the technology for the benefit of the game and supporters.

Speaker 11 Wolves' motion that the league should abandon VAR was rejected by everybody else.

Speaker 11 They're looking around the table. Yes, Wilson?

Speaker 12 Well,

Speaker 12 I don't think it was always going to be defeated, but I think what's important is by taking that extreme position, they've maybe shifted the window and there is going to be a slightly more

Speaker 12 in-depth discussion than there would have been. So I think it's probably good that Wolves have done that because I feel that VAR still,

Speaker 12 I'm about to say something ludicrous. I don't think we've talked about it enough.
We've talked about it.

Speaker 12 We've talked about it far too much in terms of individual decisions.

Speaker 12 But in terms of the processes of it, I don't feel it's been discussed at any kind of level in terms of what what do people actually want and how can you actually do it.

Speaker 12 And I think this has been the huge problem with it.

Speaker 1 Completely.

Speaker 10 Completely.

Speaker 10 It's a really up its own backside thing to say. And apologies for it if it sounds like that, which I suspect it probably does.

Speaker 10 But this is the kind of the big thing that I keep banging on about as well. That in a way, it's not about the concrete decisions.
It's about the conceptualization of what it is that it's there to do.

Speaker 10 What's it for? And what do we want it to do? And by the way, and that's despite the fact that in Spain and England, it works very differently.

Speaker 10 And I would argue quite a lot worse in Spain, even than England. So, you do not think it's bad, I think it's worse here because it's much more into it, but then that's not really about again.

Speaker 10 And this is what everyone always says, and I think it's

Speaker 10 an easy response. It's not about the technology, it's about the people running.

Speaker 10 Well, obviously, but the technology changes the way that the people who are running it behave and the way that all of us behave and act. And in Spain, it's much more interventionist than in England.

Speaker 10 That's the main thing. But that's because, of course, the concept or where we set the bar for how much contact is a foul and that kind of thing is at a different point.

Speaker 7 It's definitely led to some weird unintended consequences. Like, I don't know if I would say it's better or worse than Italy because I think it's better in some things and worse than others.

Speaker 7 But I do think, for instance, when you see Champions League games now, I watch Italian teams expecting a handball in situations because in Italy they've just decided to make handballs so

Speaker 7 clear-cut, oh, let's hit the hand, we're just going to give it. And now that runs up against other countries that haven't done that.

Speaker 7 And I think it's definitely led to, I suppose those differences already existed, but a highlighting of them, perhaps.

Speaker 11 perhaps it's worth sometimes stepping back and asking you know the the conceptualization of what we want just in life as well you know we should have that's what we should celebrate we should thank Gary O'Neill for making us all question what the point of any of this is now let's finish on this email from Emma who says dear Max Barry and the team I'd like to join the chat about listening to football weekly while coming across dangerous wildlife I'm a pom who's been living in Australia for 16 years now I listen to the pod while I go trail running yesterday while listening to how Barry has zero interest in watching the England friendlies, I realized I was about to step on a red-bellied black snake, one of the most venomous in Australia.

Speaker 11 It was an absolute beauty, picture attached. We made eye contact for a second, at least that's how I remember it, before it slithered away into the bush.

Speaker 11 For the rest of my run, every stick and tree root was a potential snake. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you for all the hours of entertainment the pod has brought me.

Speaker 11 I've been listening since the very start back in 2006 in the days when you had to download it onto a computer and transfer it onto an iPod. Do I win a prize?

Speaker 11 No, but you get to live. So that's good, isn't it? Keep up the great work.
Emma on the Sunshine Coast. Yes, Sid.

Speaker 10 Sorry, does this mean that potentially the last thing that went through his mind was Barry? Emma.

Speaker 11 It's Emma, but yes, but yes, possibly.

Speaker 10 Listening to Barry and the snake gets you, just as Barry's making a really pertinent point.

Speaker 1 Yeah, listening to me make a disparaging comment about the football or the England football team, I can think of no better way to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Speaker 11 I mean, sorry,

Speaker 11 when I'm listening to that, I do feel like dying.

Speaker 1 I must admit.

Speaker 11 It's the thousandth time I've heard Barry say, I'm not interested in England-friendly.

Speaker 11 Literally, my soul does leave my body.

Speaker 1 If it helps, Max, I'm also not interested in Irish-friendly.

Speaker 1 That's good.

Speaker 11 Anyway, that'll do for today.

Speaker 11 We've got preview episodes out tomorrow and Wednesday before going daily on Friday. But if that isn't enough football for you, please go and listen to our sister podcast, The Audio Long Read.

Speaker 11 They've released an episode today on the trials and tribulations of South End United, read by the journalist Tim Burroughs, and it is brilliant. But that'll do for today.
Thank you, Barry. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Wilson. Cheers.
Thank you, Nikki. Thanks.

Speaker 11 Thanks, Sid. Part two and three.
Congratulations.

Speaker 1 Thanks, thanks.

Speaker 11 Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.