Dortmund off to Wembley as Kompany heads for Bayern – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Euro pardon, there's a lot to fit in.

Germany first with Archie, our Dortmund ready for Wembley, our Bayern ready for company, and what next for Leiverkusen?

There's a wild relegation playoff.

Hansie flick to Barca, the Germany squad, and hopefully there's hidden time time for Heidenheim.

And then to Spain, where Sid has been working around the clock and really moaning about it.

Real Madrid after their 15th Champions League, and what on earth happened with Javi at Barca.

Nikki's far more relaxed about things, but still plenty of headlines.

Why was Allegri sacked by Juve?

What next for Peoli at Milan?

The Italian view of Chelsea bound Enzo Maresca and some lovely Claudio Ranieri.

All that, your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Matthew says, I'm looking forward to this.

You've assembled a truly cosmopolitan panel.

And John says, insane lineup, which is, I mean, that's high praise indeed.

I mean, perhaps says something about John's life.

Sid will join us in part two for part two.

As always, just a one part for him.

But welcome, Barry Glen Denning.

Yeah, as usual, Max, I don't expect to do too much heavy lifting in this, the next hour.

I'm just here to listen.

Wonderful stuff.

Nikki Bandini, hello.

Hi yeah.

And live from an airport of some sort.

Archie Rin Tutt, welcome.

Cologne Bonn Airport.

Hi, Max.

Hello.

Well, I'll start with you then, Archie, because we don't have you.

We only have you for a pint, a very SIDS mode.

You've got me for as long as my flight is called.

So

it could be a bit longer.

Archie Dorman played Real Madrid on Saturday night in the Champions League final.

That's why you're heading over to London.

Last time they were there 11 years ago under Jürgen Klopp, and they lost 2-1 to Bayern.

I presume a lot of the talk has been about, you know, that last trip and, I don't know, exorcising some demons.

I think the majority of the focus, Max, has been on

how

it's so different to the last time they went to Wembley, because then it felt like almost the completion of this journey that they were on with Jürgen Klopp.

Whereas now, this has come so out of the blue under Edin Tiersig.

I think if you said to anyone even at the start of April that Dortmund were going to make the Champions League final, to Dortmund fans alone, I think they would have chuckled and been like, All right, calm down.

Through

primarily the fantastic defensive performances of Mats Hummels and Nico Schlotterbeck, only one of whom has been called up to the Germany squad, and that's Schlotterbeck.

They have, I think, done well to put in

what I would call good cup performances and show that

for all the might that many teams may have in terms of quality over Dortmund,

that still in individual games,

you can still get through because

I've seen a lot of this team slated throughout this season.

I would say that outside of the first 11 for Dortmund, there is not that much strength and depth, and it shows you the somewhat ragged transfer policy of the last few years.

But yeah, there's a lot of excitement about the game.

They had 400,000 ticket requests

for the game at Wembley.

I would expect the majority of the stadium to be a wall of yellow

given how many finals Real Madrid have been in by now.

I don't think there's quite the same desperation to get over to London as there is from Dortmund.

So, yeah,

there's a lot of, I'd say, pleasant surprise about it.

Is there any kind of...

sense that it's a free hit?

Because in a way it is, but in a way, you know, Champions League finals don't come around very often, so you can't treat it like that.

You can't, but I think

they will be a bit more relaxed than they would have been had it been Bayern.

That would have been torturous for them if they'd had to face the prospect of losing to Bayern again and framing everything in that

narrative as well.

Because it's been a pretty one-sided story for Dortmund against Bayern.

They did beat them at the end of March this year.

But they were quite fortunate on that day.

I didn't think Dortmund had to be that good, and Bayern were terrible.

But yeah, I think they look when you've got somebody like Nicholas Fulkrug up front, who seems to be just riding this fairy tale wave in that everything he seems to touch at the right moment turns to gold.

You wonder,

as one of two former Hanover strikers playing in this final alongside Hosalu of Real Madrid.

Wonder

if some of that magic can rub off on the night.

I do have a weird feeling about Dortmund this time, just the way that things have gone for them this season.

It just speaks against all logic, and sometimes football works that way.

I mean, I don't know if I do share Archie's optimism for Dortmund just because it's Madrid and it's Madrid in a final end, and we know what happens.

But I've been sort of curious about the Matt Tummel story.

I think he's not been very

reticent about the fact that he's not happy about being missed over for the Germany squad.

I don't know how much of a sort of fuss there's been about that in Germany and the fact that he has had this extraordinary season, I think, really become quite emblematic of that Dortmund team.

There's been noise because there's always noise around Mats Hummels, and

because he's a 2014 World Cup winner,

there's always a certain status that will be lent to him, as well as having been

one of the best defenders that Germany have had over

the last decade.

The thing is, is that Mats Horse is also renowned for

not necessarily being a go-with-the-flow guy in the dressing room.

And I think that's a big thing for Julian Nagelsmann of wanting to keep the right balance in there

with the Germany national team.

And I think it's also a decision of that.

But also,

look at the kind of team that he's shone in.

Dortmund have been bunkering down at the back in the Champions League and not trying to give too much away.

And the kind of football that Julian Nagsman is trying to play will be more on the front foot.

And he is not as quick as the first choice pairing of Antonio Rudiger and Yonatan Tarr.

And I think that is also playing into his reasoning.

There are enough reasons, and I do understand it.

And Hummels in the league season was not as strong as well.

It's a shame for him, but I do get it, particularly because in the media, Maxwell Mills has been known to, straight after a defeat, he's very quickly on camera and making between the lines slights against his teammates.

So

if things do start to go wrong, that's not the kind of thing I think you need in a squad, is the viewpoint from Julian Argentina.

Archie Bairlievakusen won the

Invincible League and Cup double and lost in Europe, the only game they've lost this season.

Will they be considering this season a success or an abject failure?

So I was at the Leverkusen parade on Sunday Baz.

I hope it was better than the Man City.

Well, on the way to the stadium, it didn't really look like that because there were kind of drabs of people.

But once you got to the stadium, they sold 40,000 tickets and it was pretty full.

And they had Chabby Alonso flanked by Yonatan Tar, the centre-back, and the guy who's been there the longest at the club, along with Lucas Wadecky, the captain with both trophies, coming out to Can't Stop by the Red Hot Chili Peppers through this wall of smoke.

And it looked quite cool, I've got to say.

Point is

they, this was a club which was synonymous with near-misses.

Neverkusen was the term.

And for Neverkusen to go into Neverlusen, apart from Atalanta,

they had the cup final on Saturday, which they won against Kaiser Slauten, a second division team.

And

they were pushed all the way because of a red card by Odel and Kosonu at the end of the first half.

That made things seemingly more difficult, but actually probably easier because it took the pressure off them a little bit.

But still, a a wonderful goal by Granite Zhaka, who, as Lucas Rodetzky has told me in an interview, he's been the glue in that team, both I think socially and indeed on the pitch for them.

So it's the best season in their history by a mile to complete a domestic double unbeaten domestically as this stat now gets twisted.

It's been a stunning season for them.

Let's talk about Vincent Company.

Bar Municip agreed a three-year deal with him to take over as head coach.

I mean,

what has the reaction been like in Germany?

Are the fans happy?

Do we know what the players think?

Don't know what the players think, but I think from the point of view of Bayern Munich fans, it's finally we have a coach because the amount of candidates that they've gone through,

I think there's enough to kind of put the names into mumbo number five there.

It's insane with

Julian Nagelsmann, Thomas Truchel, they went back in for, but didn't get him,

because they only offered him a one-year contract.

Well, they only offered him to complete his contract.

So he was like, nah, not having that.

Chabby Alonso, Ralph Rangnik, Oliver Glasner,

there are more.

These were the most high-profile they definitely went for.

So

they were already backed into a bit of a corner.

And that.

That they've gone for someone like Vincent Company.

Okay, he's been relegated.

And I'm not saying he's going going to have anything near the career that Arsene Wenger and Jürgen Klopp have had, but both of those coaches were also relegated.

Maybe we need to look a little bit more outside the box here.

Bayern has been forced to do that.

He is a big name, having had an illustrious career.

And he also spent the fact that he can speak German is a positive for Bayern.

That's something that they like to insist on.

They're flexible if you can speak English, but for the most part, they want somebody who speaks German.

And he's got an attacking philosophy, style of play,

which will suit them.

So,

look,

he will know, if he's been reading the news, that he is eighth, ninth choice, I think.

But at the same time, it will take the expectations off him a little bit, even if...

On the other hand, the expectations at Bayern are win every game, please.

Thank you.

The fact that he learned at the knee of Pep Garliola probably helps as well, because he's clearly very highly regarded at Bayern Munich.

And

if,

you know, they've had,

if he's as low down the pecking order as Archie says, why not take a punt on him?

You know, he had a very good season with Burnley.

He had a bad season with Burnley.

I wouldn't write him off.

I guess that the sort of interesting...

point that I'm wondering about is their anxiety at Bayern about, okay, look, losing one title, that can happen.

but i suppose looking across other teams that once they get toppled from the top don't bounce straight back from it like my obvious example of course because i look at italy all the time is juventus winning nine titles in a row and then they get toppled and they haven't really been close again recently uh but you could look in england and and say when the manchester united era of of total domination broke it really broke and i i don't get the sense that's as likely to happen in a sustained way in Germany just because of the financial realities of Bayern Munich and where they are compared to all of their rivals.

But is there some anxiety that perhaps looking at company, it's not a question of him being inadequate so much as, okay, but we've got an actual genuine threat to us right now in Jabbi Alonso, who's forming something special.

And is this guy the guy who's going to come in and be special and break that again?

I mean, is it fair to say that

just broadly, if Company doesn't come in and win the league right away, that will be considered a failure?

Yes.

But if you don't win any game at Bayern, it's a failure.

Can I move you on to the relegation playoff?

You were there last night.

It was absolutely ridiculous.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Right.

Fortuna Dusseldorf of the second division were 3-0 up on Balkan after the first leg and coming back to their home stadium.

The Merkur Spiel Arena,

as it's known, and because that's its name.

And

the fans before the game had a big choreo, which just said, Fortuna's going to win.

And you're thinking, guys,

what are you doing?

The train station.

The only banner they could have worse than that would be nothing can go wrong now.

It did feel like that.

But yeah, Fortuna wins was

the choreo.

And I just thought,

this feels a bit risky for now.

And the fans were singing, we're back again.

And you're thinking, okay.

And the train station outside was saying,

like, Fortuna is going to be in the first Bundesliga again.

And you're thinking, oh, guys, guys, look, particularly for Fortuna Dusseldorf, who have a history of calamity when it comes to getting knocked out of the Bundesliga in the last decade or so.

In 2013, they were 15th going into the final day, outside the relegation playoff spot even uh and uh they managed to get relegated um

uh then

i think back to corona times in 2020 they were in the relegation playoff spot going into the final day with verde breman needing to turn around a four goal swing against them on the final day verde breman won 6-1 against cologne And Fortuna lost 3-0 away at Union and got relegated.

So you'd think maybe

with all of this happening, maybe you chill things.

Apparently, not.

Yeah, a big banner saying, let's not be complacent, lads.

So, yeah.

On the other hand, Borchum,

they have such unbelievable character and spirit in that place.

It's a small miracle every time they survive, but this is probably the biggest of them.

And when they scored one early through Philip Hoffman, I think a former Brentford striker, there were already kind of tails were up, and you could tell.

And Fortuna Dusseldorf, who I saw them play away at Leuverkusen, and

they really went for it, which

is a brave thing to do.

And they got completely battered.

And then this time, in their biggest game of the season, they were so passive.

And in the second half, Bochen scored again.

again

from Philip Hoffman.

Kevin Sturger against his former club with the assist, he's a free agent, might go to England this summer.

And then they conceded a penalty.

Kevin Sterger tucked that away, 3-0.

And then you had, Borkham looked likely to score a fourth.

It was mad.

Then we had extra time.

Not much happened there apart from Dusseldorf nearly scoring.

And on penalties, I think it was Takashi Uchino.

who missed the decisive spot kick.

I say think because all I could focus on was the bodies which were flying about in the delirious away end of 5,000 Borkemer, who have this nickname of being unrelegatable, Unab Steigbar,

from way back in the past, but they are continuing to justify that and having had their first choice goalkeeper, Manuel Riemann, not commit to the team ahead of the

relegation playoffs.

So Andy Luter, a club hero who retired after this game, for him him to go out like this.

It is madness.

And yeah, it means Dusseldorf don't get up, but we do get a big city rivalry

in the second division next season in Dusseldorf against Cologne, who hate each other.

Oh, great.

Finally, one minute on Heidenheim, please.

Yesterday, I rang Mariana, who you might remember.

I spoke about a few months ago, who is the

former music and maths teacher to Heidenheim coach Frank Schmidt?

Yes, yes, yes, I remember.

Asked her how she is feeling about the fact that Heidenheim, with Bayer Levakusen

winning the DFB Cup as well, it meant that Heidenheim finishing in eighth was enough for a Europa Conference League spot, which is an incredible achievement in their first year in the Bundesliga.

This is having been their

village club

who have made it.

They don't sign players who are not German speaking

because their scouting department can't afford to look outside of

those boundaries.

The work done by Frank Schmidt, who's been there since 2007,

is unbelievable.

Credit to Jan Nikolaus Bester, who was called up to the Germany squad earlier this season, didn't get in the Euro squad.

Tim Kleindient's their top goal scorer as well.

And Mariana said that her highlight was beating Bayern Munich which was a stunning result as well to come from 2-0 down to beat them and that she hopes for a trip to Ireland Conference League and I was thinking well is that is that that realistic and I thought well actually maybe

I don't I don't know what the route in is from the

from the Irish top flight but yes

there have been quite a few fairy tale stories in Germany this season and underdogs doing well but and that is definitely one of them beautiful stuff well done Mariana.

Uh, thank you, Archie.

Uh, you're welcome to hang around until your flight's called, but you may also leave.

It's totally your choice.

So, that'll do for part one.

Sid, joins us in part two.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

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Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Sid Load joins us.

Hey, Sid.

Morning.

You were at Real Madrid's Media Day yesterday.

It's a wild bun fight, yeah.

Yeah, but how does this compare with other Real Madrid media days ahead of the Champions League final?

It's basically the same.

The one significant difference this time, they have got rid of the international section of the media day,

which in a way actually reduces some of the tension because essentially you imagine you've got five journalists in a little pack in the international media section.

Obviously, it's usually a lot more than that, but kind of five at the front.

At least one of them's role will be to try to keep the non-international journalists out of there with sharp elbows and back heels and stuff.

So at least we didn't have that this time, but it was a bit of a bum fight, but it was good.

It was interesting to talk to people.

And at the risk of sounding very, very cruelly, I'm going to sound very, very cruelly, even in five minutes.

How well Jude Bellingham speaks, how articulate he is, how analytical he manages to be in very little time.

It's a pity we've not heard more from him this year because every time he speaks,

he's fantastic.

Just like a little Bellingham vignette, which I heard on Sunday from a friend of mine, his young son, who's eight or nine, I think,

was at a sort of meet and greet training session put on by McDonald's earlier this season, and Jude Bellingham took the session.

So my mate is a big West Brom fan.

His son turned up in a West Brom shirt.

Jude Bellingham took one look at him and went, mate, we can never be friends.

Get on him.

A word on Tony Cruz, who bows out after the Champions League final.

Like he had a decent, a good old send-off at the last game.

How would you rate?

i heard i heard a conversation somewhere else about you know whether he's underrated or not you know and i sort of mark albrighton is the you know it's not the comparison with tony cruise but you know that's like is he underrated but i wonder with tony cruise if there's is this if there's something in that given what he's achieved that he sort of never put in those top table who's your best team etc i totally agree with you the trouble is i suppose we need to start talking about how where do you kind of where do you draw in the barrier at what point does a player stop being underrated and become rated?

And then at what point does that then become overrated again?

And I suppose it goes through phases.

And with Cruise, I think one of the things that people have missed in all of this is that Cruise had made this decision to time it this way and to time it with him leaving at the very, very top and with everybody, you know, to use the old cliche to leave.

leave them wanting more, you know, to go at the top so everyone thinks this is the way you remember me.

And he said that very explicitly.

Certainly not what me and Barry are doing on this podcast.

He said this very explicitly, this idea that I would rather rather go now with you thinking I'm at the top than maybe in a couple of years when people are thinking, why is he still playing?

And I think on the face of it, it's an absurd thing to say because he's a brilliant footballer.

But I actually think one of the things that's been missed here a little bit is that

he knows that.

He knows that moment will come.

And in fact, he knows it will come because it had already come a little bit.

sort of 18 months or so ago.

There's been a lot of talk at Real Madrid about this transition from the older generation to this new generation of what Ancelotti refers to as energetic midfielders.

He uses this word energia a lot, which doesn't really mean energy in Spanish.

It's a kind of a mix of Spanish and Italian.

And even when Real Madrid won the Champions League in 2022, that transition was kind of already happening.

So Modric and Cruz were playing every game.

But if you look at the changes that led to some of those comebacks, Cruzoff, Camovinga, on was actually the key change quite a lot.

And I think Cruz had started to feel that actually people were beginning to think, well, maybe he's him and Modric kind of shouldn't be playing anymore.

Maybe they are getting to an age where they're being found out, even though, of course, Modric is four years older than Cruz.

And so, in theory, he should have been the one to go first.

But I always felt Cruz would go first.

And I think one of the reasons why he's playing really well this year, I think there's a tactical shift which helps him, which is to have a player alongside him in deep midfield.

And I also think it's partly because he's built this season to be his best so that he can go out.

And so,

and it sounds like I've gone off on a massive tangent, which I sort of have but i think one of this i this idea of of kind of

analyzing and judging and rating cruise is that there have actually been phases a little bit even though there's been a really high consistency of performance there has been phases and of course he's been alongside people who've taken the limelight off him so if you've if you've got you know you take cruise's round of career you've got cristiano ronaldo through quite a lot of it obviously you know one of the very, very best players ever.

You've got Modric, who then

turned out to be a Ballon d'Or winner alongside him.

Then you've got the beginning of a period when actually there's a slight doubt about Cruz, certainly about the energy of playing at deep midfield and whether he can do that defensive work as well.

But he kind of kept on playing.

And then this year he's been brilliant.

And I think what's made it different this year is,

in a way, I think, you know, what makes it different in terms of how people judge him?

I think it's the fact that he's going.

is sort of what changed because it focuses people's minds on everything he's done for the last 10 years.

I think he's absolutely brilliant.

I was wondering, is there a risk with Cruz that this is one of those players who, when he goes, people are going to underestimate how

I was going to say impossible, it's never impossible, but how very difficult he'll be to replace.

I just have this parallel in my head with Machalele when he left to go to join Chelsea and this moment when perhaps Madrid are about to sign, we all anticipate Killium Mbappe in the next few days and it's yet another brilliant attacker being brought into this mix where you've already got lots of brilliant attackers.

Is there a risk that actually this very fundamental part of the pitch is going to be overlooked?

Yeah, I think actually the last year with Cruise has really kind of helped.

I think it's helped people to realize that's the case, but I also think it poses that question of what do you do now?

Because what's happened this year is that for all this talk of a transition towards a younger generation, which became really

quite a focal point last year when they were battered by City.

Because to be honest, Cruise was a little bit overrun in that game.

And this was, you know, it did look like, okay, maybe now Kamavinga has to play all the time and Showameni will play the deep midfield role and and obviously at that point we didn't know for sure that bellingham was coming but pretty quickly we did know that bellingham was coming that fede valverdi look at that and that's a four-man incredibly athletic midfield incredibly incredibly dynamic midfield and then you look at cruso modic and i think maybe part of the problem was that crusher modic were always looked at as a package and so there's this idea that well you can't have players of this age who might get overrun in this midfield.

And of course, what I think what Anchilotti decided in a way was, no, maybe you can't, but you've got to have one of them.

Because the other players, brilliant though they are, don't have that level of control and that level of controlling the tempo of the game.

And I think that's why this year we've seen Cruise more than Modric, because actually that's more Cruz's thing than it is Modric's thing.

And I think the risk sometimes is that we look at them together.

And let's put this very simply, at the start of this season, Cruz wasn't a starter.

Cruise didn't start in Bill Bauer on the opening day of the season.

And the idea was that this was going to be...

the beginning of an evolution towards something slightly different.

And I think what Matt Madrid have found, and this speaks directly to your question, is that actually you need that player that controls the tempo of the game as well.

You need that player who

plays and makes others play.

And I think what Angelotti has done this year, another great example of how we talk about Angelotti as a manager of egos and not about the tactical analysis, but actually he's done this.

What Angelotti's done is found a way to make that work by having a midfielder closer to him.

and allowing Cruz to maybe not carry all of the weight of the defensive and athletic work, but to carry the weight of them playing.

And next year, they won't have that.

And there isn't a a player in the squad who does that.

Bellingham was asked about this yesterday and actually answered it quite well.

And he said, look, because Angelotti had been asked at the weekend if Bellingham would be Cruise now, if he would change his position from this place behind the forwards and become the guy who runs the midfield.

And he said, there is no one like Cruise.

And Bellingham was asked this yesterday.

And he said, well, that's right.

No one does what Cruise does.

And it's not about replacing him directly.

It's about finding a way of this functioning without him.

And I think you're right.

There isn't a player to do that.

So they will have to restructure again how that midfield works.

Just a credit to Tony Kroes from the German perspective, where

he in his career managed to successfully stick two fingers up to Bayern Munich, and in particular, Karl Heinz Ruminiger,

because when he left Bayern for Realm Madrid in 2014, I think it was,

he was angling for greater recognition in terms of his salary.

And Karl Heinz Ruhmeniger is meant to have said to him, You're not a world-class player.

And those words, I think, have come back to bite considerably, particularly because he's the sort of player that I think Bayer could have done with

in the last decade or so

with his metronomic passing.

It's not like they've had exactly, they've been starved of trophies in between, but

he never has received the kind of love that you might expect for the amount of trophies and medals that he's won,

not just

in Bayern or Bavaria, but in the whole of Germany as well.

I think that

he's not maybe got the respect that he deserves.

Also, because Ulli Hernes, the other side of that duo,

famously

said that, oh, you know,

there's a thing with Kross where he's just playing it square, square, square the whole time.

And there's this, there's this phrase of queer past Tony, which is literally like square past Tony.

You mean he's he's the modern Vinny skinny side?

Yeah, he's amazing.

Right.

So he's Ray Wilkins.

He's the crab.

Yeah.

Um, can I move you on, Sid, to Barcelona?

Michael says, Will Barter have rehired Javi by the time Sid leaves for part three?

Um, well, so, so what's happened?

Well, I've I kind of feel like I've spoken quite a lot already.

I kind of have very long answers to all your previous questions, and I'm worried that I'm about to now do the same.

What's happened?

Can we define this, Max?

Make it really tight for me.

What's happened?

Because otherwise, I'll be here all day.

In January, he resigns.

April is persuaded to say...

Let's go back even further.

In September, he extended his contract.

In January, he resigned.

In April, he came back.

April is persuaded to say, May he's sacked on Friday.

And by my understanding, he's now entitled to 20 million euros he didn't want or wouldn't have got a month ago.

But now he's been sacked.

He can ask for it and go, you owe me 20 million and Barcelona don't have it.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the many things that's happened.

I didn't realize this, I must admit.

And I've got to do a hat tip to both John Bruin and Graham Hunter, who point this out to me.

This is the lyrics from Sinacha's That's Life, isn't it?

You're riding high in April and shot down in May.

And that's quite literally what happened to him.

But the money bit, Chavi had always said, look, I'm a club man, there will be no problem.

But of course, that was because he was walking away.

I won't take any money.

Now, this time he said again, and I think he was a little bit irritated, actually, that he was asked it.

He said, no, I've said I'm a club man, there won't be any problem.

That said, nor is there any announcement about how exactly they manage this money.

And I think there is.

Well, I say I think I know this is the case.

There will be a discussion about some sort of payoff.

Now, I don't think it will be the full 20 million.

I think there will be some accommodation of Barcelona's Barcelona's financial problems.

But I think what Chavi wants to do is protect his staff rather than him, because, of course, that's part of this.

So that's one of the many things that's happened.

I don't know which other things that have happened you'd like to know, Matt.

Oh, give us the whole thing, Sid, and then you can go away.

That's fine.

Well, look, I mean, look,

to simplify it, obviously one of the reasons why this has happened the way it has is because at a very basic level, there hasn't been a huge conviction in any of the decisions that have been made until now, which is why I suppose it was always plausible that

decisions would be then kind of backtracked on.

Now, obviously, the initial backtrack is Chavi himself resigning in part because he feels the pressure and part because he feels the sack is potentially coming and because he knows that

some of the criticism he's getting is coming from within.

And Chavi's not.

daft.

He knows this isn't just external noise.

He knows this is coming from within.

And when he resigned, remember, he used that phrase where he described being manager at Barcelona as a cruel and unpleasant job.

He was telling people at that stage that, you know, this, it's just not worth it.

You know, the amount of effort you put in, the total lack of recognition you get, it's just not worth doing this job.

Now, what happens is that they start to play well again.

And I think by him going, it actually took the pressure out of some of those criticisms.

You know, why attack someone who's going to go anyway?

And so I think actually things became a little bit nicer.

And this is often the case, I guess, isn't it?

People are going.

So sort of everyone gets a bit softer on them.

Everybody kind of accepts them a bit better.

They were good against PSG, weren't they?

I mean, they were good.

And they did play against well against PSG.

And that whole run after announcing he was sacked, or sorry, announcing that he was resigning, that whole run, they played, I think I'm right in saying it was 13 games unbeaten, I think, until they played PSG.

And, you know, he sort of starts thinking, this is okay.

And they start thinking.

He's okay.

And also, the most important thing in this, of course, is they started looking for a manager not being able to find one.

We should never forget the basics here.

One of the reasons is there wasn't an alternative.

So you get to this point where you go into a meeting and and barsteiner has spent three four weeks maybe by then starting to say increasingly publicly maybe we can convince him to stay they go into a meeting and they convince him to stay the thing is i think that meeting i i think we need to re

how do i say this redefine that meeting a little bit because we talk about convincing him to stay but it was also him saying to them hey i can do this it was him convincing them as well so they come out of the meeting everyone gets a bit emotional they go hey he's staying and the next day la says, We're really proud of this decision, we're really pleased.

A club needs stability.

Uh, in the meantime, and I suppose, in a way, you're questioning what happened.

I suppose the big question is, What happens between coming out and saying how wonderful this is, and then saying this guy's sacked?

What happens between time?

And handsy flick, okay.

Yeah, well, handsy flick.

There you go, that's part of it.

You start to believe that actually you can get handsy flick, who deep down you've probably always wanted.

You start to see that the results slip away again, so they get beaten pretty heavily by PSG, albeit they play all right, and they have a red card.

And without that, maybe it's different.

They get beaten in the classic go by Real Madrid, again, quite heavily in terms of conceding goals.

And Girona go and put four past them.

And at that point, you think they might not even get second place.

As it turns out, they have.

And so then some of those frustrations come to the surface again, but also the fact that you're starting to get flick.

The other thing that has been cited as a reason, and I must confess, I suspect is more an excuse than a reason, is that Chavi does a press conference in which he says, realistically, it's difficult for us to compete with the financial situation.

Now, one of the things that had been sort of discussed between Laporta and Chavi was that, you know,

positive about this, we've got a good squad, we can compete.

You know, we know that there's limitations, but we'll find a way.

You know, we're united front here.

And that was seen by the board as a little bit of an act of treason, you know, or of leaving them exposed to say this.

But everyone knew it.

And if you watch that press conference, it's not that dramatic.

It's not that bad.

But that's an extra element to this kind of whole cocktail of of things that sort of irritate and pull at the pull at the threads a little bit and so then you get laporta kind of goes oh he's gone but no one tells chavi so you have 10 days of no one telling him that and i think that in a way is is is the worst part of this because you can change your manager and i don't think that many people are desperately sad that chavi's being replaced by flick i think what annoys people is the way it's been handled archie on handsy flick uh will he be you know is this a good appointment for Sid?

Will he be nice to deal with?

He is very reluctant in dealing with the media.

I remember him.

Oh, good.

I remember actually, he was about to give an interview to Skye, and then Skye sent him away for a moment.

And he looked at me.

I was just standing nearby and was just kind of...

It was like looking into the, I don't know, the eyes of hell.

I was very scared, I have to say.

He is, look,

he's won a Champions League with Bayern, and the way that he did that was by

gathering senior players around him and

at the club and letting them help shape the direction that they were going to go in on the pitch.

I think that Robert Lewandowski will have put a good word in for him with the Barcelona hierarchy.

However, he played

very risky attacking football.

I guess that is part of the nature with playing attacking football in itself.

But just

a lot of their success, I think, was down to having an inform and prime Alfonso Davies sweeping up things at the back, which is something that he didn't have with the German national team.

And he's always been renowned as being this

super nice guy with the players who gets everybody on side.

I think making tough decisions is something that he struggled with in the German national team squad.

And

he's now being

having the mick taken out of him quite consistently because of this Amazon documentary that you may or may have not seen

about Germany's 2022 World Cup campaign.

And there's a famous scene in it where to try and motivate the players before the game against Japan, the team psychologist prepared a video.

which Flick then presented to the team and it told the players to learn from the geese geese and head out for our great flight.

I remember.

Wow.

And

since Geese Gate

and generally looking at his style of management

in that documentary as well, I think that his stock has been damaged in Germany to the point that I'm wondering,

have Barcelona done all of their research here?

Because it feels like Joanne Laporte is saying, let's get a German coach, but they haven't quite done the research into which German coach they should get.

That's definitely the case.

And

I've found that quite interesting.

There is a habit, obviously, I know we all do this, but there is a habit here of kind of taking a, well, in this case, taking a nationality and assuming that there's an identity.

And there's been a lot of talk of the La Via Alemana, the German way.

And Laporta has clearly been very interested in the German way.

There's been a lot of talk of Nagelsmann, of Klopp, which is obviously is an impossible dream, certainly at this stage for Barcelona, of Flick.

And there was another one that was mentioned.

Who was the other one?

Even Tuka got mentioned at one point.

And just the idea that those four managers are the same thing because they're all German is kind of baffling.

Quite apart from, of course,

the question as to how well Flick's approach in a kind of a very dynamic

wide men,

4-2-3-1, whether that fits what Barcelona have got is another question that now needs to be overcome.

I'm just thinking

about

Archie talking about that goose thing.

And I was just thinking, there's a former athletic club and Braille Oviedo manager who could definitely use that example.

His name, of course, is Zigander.

Mr.

Goose.

With that.

With that.

I mean, if that stays in, we're all screwed, aren't we?

Cheers, Sid.

Thanks for coming on, pal.

Very much a pleasure.

Bye-bye.

See you.

Archie, have you got a plane to catch?

I think I've got about three minutes.

Okay, well, you can go away now as well.

And Nikki will have the floor for Seriat in part three.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Nikki, we've got rid of them.

It's all yours.

Let's start with Juventus.

Left till last and then abandoned by everyone.

I know.

I see how things are here.

I see how Seria ranks in the

we look.

we value your commitment to an entire podcast.

And we're treating you shabbily because of it.

Juventus have sacked Maxile Edri, and they said this dismissal follows certain behaviours during and after the Italian Cup final, which the club deemed incompatible with the values of Juventus and with the behaviour that those who represent it must adopt.

What happened?

I mean, first of all, this is nonsense.

This isn't really why he's been

sacked.

He's been sacked because they were planning to let him go and make a change.

And that, frankly, makes perfect sense.

Cristiano Duntoli was brought in as sporting director after helping to create the Napoli team that won the league.

He was brought in by Juventus at the start of this season.

And it stands to reason that he's wanted his own guy.

The fans have been not particularly enthusiastic about Max Allegri for a while.

Allegri was brought back to the club to restore the glory days, which demonstrably hasn't happened.

He's never been one to give you thrilling, exciting football.

And Juventus have not expected that from him, but the thought was if we bring Allegri back, they'll be closer to competing for a title again, because the mantra at Juventus has always been winning isn't important it's the only thing that matters just win that's all that matters and look the first half of the season Juventus actually were very close to inter there was a point in January where they were top of the table and it looked like there was going to be a real title race but that faded again football has been dreadful in the second half of the season but then they go and win the Coppo Italia and Allegri who has had this tension on him really of knowing his time there was coming to an end.

There was no doubt that his time was coming to an end.

He did something that he's done plenty of times at Juventus, which is throw his jacket off.

But then he kept going further than that, took his tie off and started unbuttoning his shirt as things were winding down.

And he had

several huge goes while doing this at the fourth official because he was unhappy about some decisions that had gone against Juventus.

I think in terms of decisions without getting into the nitty-gritty, he may have had a point about a couple of them.

And I think Juventus were quite unlucky.

It didn't affect anything because they beat Atlanta

probably more comfortably than the 1-0 scoreline would make it look.

And then during the celebrations that followed, he was basically also just shooing Juntoli.

Juntoli came over at one point and he was, get away, I'm having my celebration, my players.

Look, Juventus have seen all this and they've gone, well, I'll tell you what, rather than try to have

some sort of payoff that we've got to give him, we think we now have a chance to get rid of him for just cause.

Bluntly is what it looks like from the outside anyway.

But in any case, he was going at the the end of the season.

I think that's been an open secret for a while.

And this is politics to some degree by the club pinning it all on the instance after the Cup Italia gets.

Means no more, no manager in future can peel off their jacket.

No Juve manager can do that ever, ever again.

It's like he's auditioning for like the Italian full Monty, him, Gasperini, Pioli, and Gattuso together.

All that could be a wonderful movie.

Actually, Max, I mean, it's

maybe over-analysing it, but actually, one of the things when allegri came back was

they've gone through this period of chopping and changing managers and Maurizio Sari came in and by the way did still win the league Maurizio Sari but the whole conversation when Sari was there was does he have the stile Juve the Juventus style because Sari wants to wear a track suit and he modified himself and wore basically a jumper and a semi-formal look but he would never put on a full suit so allegri is the company man who'll put your suit on and look like he's supposed to look on the sideline so there is something in the saying goodbye to the steel juve at the end.

Literally, you can see the pictures.

He gets quite a long way down on the buttons of his shirt.

It was a funny moment,

if also

a sort of absurd one.

Who comes in?

It's looking almost certainly like it's going to be Thiago Motta, who has done absolutely extraordinary work this season at Bologna, getting them up into the Champions League places.

I think they're going to finish fifth now because as soon as they got into those Champions League places places confirmed, they've put their feet up and called it a season.

And of course, fifth place is guaranteed that Champions League spot in Italy now thanks to the European performance of clubs.

In fact, they'd have had an extra one because of Atalanta as well, but they don't get all six now because Atalanta aren't going to finish fifth.

So

he's had a brilliant season there.

He's really established himself as someone who's got this very creative way of thinking about tactics and about getting the best out of players.

We've seen some players like Orsolini, who've really, and of course, Lewis Ferguson, Scotland's Lewis Ferguson, have these spectacular seasons that we think go beyond just how good they are as players and speak to the systems he's created.

And the hope is that Juventus, he can be the guy to come in and untap a lot of, especially young potential they have in that squad.

The next-gen team has been producing these players, some of whom have been playing for the team occasionally this season, like Samuel Lenning Jr.

or Kennan Yildis,

others like Matthias Sule, who had a great season at Frozinone on loan, there's a hope that he can be the guy who untaps some of that young potential and just generally lets the team play a bit more.

Even Paolo Montero, who's come in to do these last couple of games of the season as a Ligri's caretaker replacement, has shown that actually, shockingly, you could try and play attacking football with this team.

You could let Federico Chiesa and Yildis be on the pitch at the same time.

And guess what?

Chiesa scored in two consecutive games, which I just saw someone pointing out.

And I haven't double-checked this, so I'm sorry if it's wrong, but i believe uh from a tweet i just read federico chiesa has scored in the last two games and under allegri he scored in consecutive games once in three years so perhaps there's a feeling that there's a lot of attacking potential in this squad to to be untapped still uh nikki you wrote about davi nicola keeping empoli up uh which is now

They're the fifth club he has finished 17th with.

He's the Siria Houdini, basically.

Tell us a bit more about him.

Yeah, he's amazing.

His story sort of began at Crotone, or at least began, I guess, in this story of always getting out of relegation spots.

He was there.

They were playing in Serie A for the first time.

They were having a terrible season, 29 games in.

They were basically relegated.

Everyone agreed on it.

And he made this bet with reporters, if I can keep them up, then I'm going to ride my bike all the way up 800 miles back to Turin, which is where his family home is, also, but his son died in a bike accident a couple of years before.

He did it.

They finished 17th.

He did the bike ride.

And that was this amazing moment and you think that's going to be the end of it but he's then gone on to Torina Genoa Salernitana finished 17th all of them I think out of all of those it was only at um those were sorry all of those Crotton he was there the whole season all of those he's brought in in mid-season to rescue them Torina was the only one where it wasn't fraud uh at both Genoa and Salernitana they were bottom of the table at a certain point and he comes in and turns it around and gets them to 17th.

This season,

again,

it's not bottom of the table at Empoli because Seleni Tana were bottom of the table and just terrible all season.

But Empoli were 19th and

really looking like they had very little hope when he came in.

They'd played 20 games when they hired him and scored 11 goals.

That's how desperate things were for them up front.

They then, shortly after he arrived, sold...

possibly the most promising young player, Baldianzi Tiroma.

Of course, you can go back to summer.

They sold Vicario to Tottenham.

They sold Parisi, who was a really good fullback for them, to Fiorentina.

And it all looked completely hopeless.

But yet again, in the 93rd minute of the final game of the season against Orma, they get the goal.

They score it and win.

And it was actually this really

was a really great dramatic multi-screening moment if you were doing that or if you were catching up later, great one for those highlight packages with the clock showing the different situations.

Because at the same time, you had Frozenoana playing against Audinese, knowing that

both of them would be safe if Empoli, Nicolas Empoli, didn't win.

But there was a possibility if Empoli Dru and Udineze lost, then there'd be a relegation playoff.

But generally their worry was as long as Empoli don't win, we'll probably be okay.

Frozi None completely dominate that game, have a ton of chances that get saved by Okoye.

But then Udineze score, actually Keenan Davis, an Englishman, comes off the bench, scores his first goal of the season for them.

And

suddenly Frozi Nane know that what if Empoli Empoli score then we're going down and then it happens in the 93rd minute and Frozzinana who again played brilliantly that day out of all of those clubs by the way both Udineze and Empoli have gone through three manages this season Frozzinana have stuck by Osebo DiFrancesco the whole season and his

the the juxtaposition of empoli's elation and this party and David Nicola doing it again as he always does with DiFrancesco just looking completely flattened by it was really one of those end-of-season dramas that um is compelling to watch.

There are also some amazing Claudio Ranieri scenes.

Tell us about his final game in charge of Calgary.

Yeah, the season ended in terms of them staying up.

The season was already done.

They pulled off their great escape last week by beating Sassuola.

They had a fun end to the season playing against Fiorentina in a game that didn't really matter a lot for either of them.

Fiorentina pretty much locked into a Europa Conference League spot.

They are now definitely locked into a Europa Conference League spot, unless they win the Europa Conference League coming up on Wednesday night.

But Ranieri, I think I wrote in my column, this is not the end of the story, but of course he said, since beating Saswala, actually, I am done.

I'm going to ride off into the sunset as a hero again.

But again, we talk about Nicola and the five successful escapes with different clubs.

Ranieri has had five seasons

at

Caglieri.

He's from Rome.

He's Rome and Rome is club.

He's talked about that.

But Cagliari is this club where he basically launched his career, taking them all the way up from the third tier to the top.

He's then come back to them and gone from Serie A B, got promoted in the most ridiculously last gas playoff situation.

They came back from behind in the playoff semifinal.

They scored a goal in injury time of the playoff final that got them promoted.

Now he keeps them up at the first attempt.

with the win over Sassuolo.

He's a Sardinian,

adopted Sardinian for life at this point, they absolutely adore him there.

A question from Johnny saying, How good has Dennis Wise been for Como?

Is it he who is largely responsible for getting them to the top or coincidentally there?

Of all the ex-pro choices, go and live in Como is the absolute dream, but has got them promotion to Serie A.

Yeah,

it's a bit of an interesting question as to who exactly is most responsible for Como's promotion.

Of course, there's been a lot of talk about Sesh Fabregas, who has technically been the assistant manager.

He was their interim manager.

And then because he didn't have the qualifications, they brought in Oscar and Roberts, who became the manager in charge.

And Roberts in interviews has talked about, well, actually, I'm the one who has the final say, but it's a very collaborative situation.

We all have our areas of specialism and we all chip in and say our part.

The expectation is that Fabregas will complete his badges this summer and will take over the first team.

So I don't know Wise and his responsibility.

Sorry, what is Dennis Wise's role there?

What's his title?

He's effectively in a sporting director type role.

I think his responsibility that he would claim for it is that he was the person responsible for bringing in Seth Fabregas.

And whether or not that's completely accurate, I think it probably is a bit more complicated conversation than that.

But of course, he has his links at Chelsea and Fabrigas has his links there.

And I think Wise

has a directorial role that's not quite as clear-cut as it might be at some other clubs, but certainly he would have been part of those conversations that brought Fabregas to the club.

Stefano Pioli's left Milan, which we should mention, that his choice or their choice?

Their choice.

I think a choice that comes under fairly significant fan pressure.

Pioli was increasingly unpopular with the fans, and some of that I think was quite unfair because really the reason that he was unpopular is because he couldn't keep up with Inter.

And I think that's perhaps an expectation that was a bit unrealistic.

I think Milan's league win.

a couple of seasons ago was perhaps underestimated in terms of how brilliantly he'd done to do do that and to have been putting together stronger and stronger squads.

I think the leadership of the club has done some exceptional work.

And I think that in particular, the fact that he's not been able to win derbies has counted against him with the fans and that pressure has told.

But now the fans pretty much shut down the Lopotegi replacement that was mooted because they were so unpopular.

And they've hired Paolo von Secret, who...

is already also not that popular in appointment with fans.

So I do think there's a certain amount of reactivity going on between the board and

the fans that's a little bit uncomfortable.

That said, Peori didn't end this season great.

The team has faded.

It did come up short in places where you've expected a bit more of it, like the Europa League.

Perhaps it is just time to freshen up.

But I think when we look back on Peori's time at Milan, that perhaps he hasn't been given enough credit for what he did achieve in winning that league title and in developing some young players like Liao and Tenale to come through as well.

On Enzo Maresko, who looks like he's joining Chelsea from Leicester, Leicester, did a brilliant job at Leicester.

He managed Palmer briefly and he said on why it didn't work out.

He said, unfortunately, it didn't go as I hoped.

We signed 14 new players.

It was a young team with an international environment, which sounds a lot like the Chelsea job,

doesn't it?

Yeah,

the situation at Palmer was chaotic.

They'd just been taken over the year before by an American who actually spent heaps of money on the squad, but then got relegated.

Maresca comes in and

there's just tons of new faces who don't know each other.

And I think he found it a bit chaotic.

But that was also slightly the situation at Leicester when he came in, a club that's just been relegated that had big expectations.

And he's managed that really well.

It's an interesting one, Mareska.

I feel like he's not given as much attention in Italy as some of the other Italians abroad are.

And it's perhaps because he's always been this slightly international figure.

He played in Spain and Greece in the middle of his career for a significant chunk of time.

Of course, he's been coaching under Pep Guardiola and learning there.

So he almost feels more like he's part of the Guardiola school than some Italian school of management, even though, like all Italians, he did his badges at Coverticiano and has his thesis there.

But

I think he's earned his chance, hasn't he?

I think he's one who's going to get, no doubt, more and more, more and more focus on the Italian media as he has his chance at Chelsea because

they're always very proud of any Italian that's succeeding abroad, one that they start really doing well.

Sure.

And and Deserby to Manchester United, which is a I mean, a rumor at the moment, doesn't it feel like a natural fit to me?

I find Deserbi a fascinating case because he, of course, left Italy, had a success at Shaktar and then

has gone on to

coach in England.

But

he's not wanted by the big Italian clubs.

There's a lot of interesting job opportunities coming up in Italy this season.

You've got Napoli, who looks like it's going to be Antonio Conte, which, by the way, is another story that I'm just deeply excited about because it just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

But the

Bologna job, obviously, is now going to be available if Giago Motto goes to Juventus.

The Milan job, it looks like it's Palo Fonsecus, but that's another change at the top.

There's a lot of turnover with these top clubs.

There was even a

rumor for a minute that Gasferini might leave Atalanta, which I think was tied to the Napoli job.

basically acknowledged it after the Europa League final saying sometimes you have this difficult decision between your wife and three kids and another another beautiful lady, which is a way of putting your decision as an old school Italian.

He actually said that out loud on television.

Wow.

But Deserve's name doesn't come up when we're talking about Milan, when we're talking about

Juventus.

These are not, there was some popularity among a section of Milan's supporters, I think, who would have liked to see him.

But I think there's still this bit of scepticism around him because when he was at Sassuola, yes, the football was fantastic to watch, but it was also often really uneven.

And

yes, they could score and beat anyone, but they could also concede unnecessary goals.

And I think there's a feeling that perhaps he's still that after his time at Brighton.

And I'm not certain that he's viewed as highly in Italy as people

do in England, curiously.

And I suppose, to some extent, that maybe speaks to the myopia of both countries at times and the tendency to focus on what you've seen in front of your own eyes.

Finally, Keyes says, Does Barry keep up with Troy Parrott and how he's saving at Celsior Rotterdam from relegation with his goals?

No.

I've completely forgotten about the existence of Troy Parrot.

On to the same read that message.

And after all that, once again, somehow from nowhere, you've come along.

and won the podcast.

It's extraordinary well.

All right, that'll do for today.

Don't forget, you can follow Football Weekly now on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.

Links are in the description.

You can just search for it.

Why not go and join the legions of online fans criticizing our coverage of Eric Ten Hag?

Producer Joel writes: Obviously, none of us know, we don't see it, so I haven't seen this.

So it's nice that this criticism is happening elsewhere in the football ether.

And that'll do for today.

Thank you to these two stalwarts who've stayed with me for the whole thing.

Thank you, Nikki.

Thanks, Max.

Thank you, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.