Manchester United lift the FA Cup as Saints march back to the big time – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly in a genuine underdog story.

Manchester United win the FA Cup and fully deserve to as well.

Garnacho capitalising on some less than average Man City defending and then Bruno's glorious pass to Kobby Mainu.

How good will he be at national service?

What does this mean for Eric Ten Hag?

Will he be sacked before, during or after this podcast?

And is it totally fine for people to ask him if he's been fired while he's trying to enjoy his afternoon?

As for City, they weren't at their best.

Is just the Premier League enough for them?

After the sad parade, reports that Pep's going to leave at the end of next season.

What kind of derailing effect will that have?

Both City and United will have a game at St Mary's next season after Southampton's victory over Leeds in the playoffs.

Not a classic, but who can blame them?

A great moment for Russell Martin, an agony for Leeds, whose playoff record is astonishingly bad.

Other things to do today: Celtic winning the Scottish Cup, Barca winning the Women's Champions League, betting charges for Paquetta, running to Plymouth, a couple of weddings, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Lendenning, welcome.

Hello, Max.

Hello, John Bruin.

Hello, Max.

And hello, Noradine Trowdry.

Hey, yeah.

The The Duke of Peckham says, I want 45 minutes of humble pie eating on the next Football Weekly.

Enjoy every morsel of it.

And don't forget the leftover crust as well.

Hashtag M-U-F-C.

Yes, it's not a balanced lineup, I would suggest, with two Manchester United fans here.

But we knew that this would happen, as we predicted on Thursday.

What did you say, Barry?

I don't think even the United players want to play in this final.

Yeah, and it turned out I was quite wrong, as several city players appeared not to want to be there.

They were on the pitch but they didn't really show up and I must confess I did not see this coming.

My dream scenario, well not dream scenario but what I kind of hoped would happen was City would have such a big lead after 65 70 minutes that Scott Carson who was reserve goalkeeper for the afternoon because Ederson was out with that eye socket injury that Scott Carson would come on and get to play you know 20 minutes or 10 minutes whatever in an FA Cup final because he's such a likable bloke and he seems to be having a great time at City doing what is possibly the easiest job on the planet,

third choice keeper on the best team in the world.

But no, Manchester United were well worth their win.

There were some shockingly bad perform individual performances from a few city players, Kevin De Bruyne, Erling Harland, Rodri, even, you know, uncharacteristically bad.

And his unbeaten streak has come to a very abrupt end.

Hats off to Manchester United.

They made a fool of me, and I'm not the only person, I suspect.

Probably harsh to say an abrupt end for Rodri, given it was 75 games, but I take the point.

John, I think for the first time this season, you get to say United aren't shite.

Is it the first time in two seasons?

Maybe.

Yeah, the first time in 18 months,

what a strange feeling.

What a strange old feeling that was.

I could feel the old muscle memory clicking back into gear and remembering,

God, this was good, wasn't it?

When Yana United used to win stuff and win well.

Okay, Eric Ten Haag will discuss his future, I'm sure, but this was a tactical triumph from the manager with no tactics.

And he actually, what he did was he used the same tactics he had at Brighton the previous week, which is essentially a false nine.

You've got two raiding wingers, and you've got here's an unsung hero,

Sofian Amrabat.

I still wouldn't trust him to pass water,

but he did tackle very well, and he got about the pitch.

Looked like the player we saw from Morocco at the World Cup.

I think Martinez in the team made such a difference, and it's one of those things that Senha can point to as being a real weakness in the team over the season, the lack of him.

But so many players players came through, Delot.

I mean, we don't have to name them all, but that was a Manchester United performance against the odds, them pushing together and winning in the way that they used to.

In the fact that the old Manchester United, sometimes odds were against them in a way that maybe they haven't been for Manchester City.

And then they come through, they win.

Glory, Glory, Man United.

I can't believe it.

I celebrated with some of my nearest and dearest friends.

What a day.

Sorry, that sounds a bit bit biased, but

Manchester United weren't shy.

It was absolutely fucking brilliant.

And I wonder, Nas,

did it feel sweeter because

you were the

expectations weren't there?

I wonder in the 90s, and I can't, you know, and it obviously went on for longer than that, you sort of went to games a bit like City fans on Saturday thinking, expecting to win.

And when you don't expect to win,

and things haven't gone well, does it feel different?

Does it feel better?

Oh, I mean, it always does.

It's the same way how

the next time Man United wins the league,

be that five or ten years or whatever,

it'll feel amazing.

Whereas if it was like the third time in three years or the third time in five years, it kind of feels great, but not as special.

Which is interesting because, in a way, you could argue that both teams got something out of it or both set of fans.

Man United fans won the game and City fans can at least point to like, see, we're fallible because there's this attitude of everything around city is really super efficient, super boring.

It's a procession, and that seems to annoy city fans just as much as people not giving them the credit they deserve.

So, um, you'll quite often get a situation, even winning the league, where city fans will sort of point to the fact that, oh, no, it's a really close race, um, we are fallible, um, there is there is jeopardy, and and this this sort of feeds into that so in in a in a strange way it sort of uh allows city fans to say to sort of say to the rest of the the football world see we we are exciting we are fallible we can lose

it's it was all part of pep's plan um it was brami says now kobi mainu has to do national service who will play alongside rice at the euros um i did perhaps steal that gag for the uh for the intro um i mean that second goal Barry is so good, isn't it?

Yeah.

And

I mean,

lots of things had to go right for it to to happen and Maynu's finish was probably

the easiest part of the goal if you know what I mean you'd rashford's crossfield pass to Garonacho his pass inside to Fernandez and that wonderful stabbed sort of

bit of misdirection from Bruno Fernandez into the path of of Kobi Maynu who who swept it home first time not not a particularly powerful shot but a very precise one into the the corner I've already seen you Max compare Fernandez's pass to what I believe to be the most overrated pass in the history of football Teddy Sheringham's to Alan Shearer at Euro 96 but

I'll give you it you know I think

Fernandez is is

much much much better

But yeah, it was a wonderful goal.

And even the first goal was

a great bit of opportunism from Garnacho just to

chase that ball from

Diogo Dallot, that ball from Deep Hope for the best.

And it paid off because Cavarliol and Stefan Ortega really got their wires crossed.

And then he just tapped into an empty net.

We don't have to list every player, John.

I was just about to do what you did, but Mainu was brilliant again.

I mean, Amarabat really helped him, but Mainu was really good, I thought.

The thing about Mainu all season is I've thought this guy obviously has just about every facet that you'd expect, except that in midfield,

you can't help noticing that Manchester United concede a lot of chances.

I think that's been the big story this season, and you wonder if he's much of a screen for the defence.

But if you put Amraba alongside him, then it works.

And do you know what?

I think Maynu could be the player that a lot of people thought Paul Popper would be for Manchester United.

And also, because he's a Manchester Ladder, a stockpot ladder or whatever,

it's got that appeal to the fans.

You know, you can be the new Marcus Rasford, you can be someone for the club to hang their hat on, someone that you might expect to do a Stephen Gerrard and stay with the club throughout their career, because the talent's all there.

And

the other thing is,

he's such a nice lad as well, isn't he?

There's no sort of edge to him.

There's just like this guy enjoys playing football.

He's been a really diligent pupil to Ten Hag.

Ten Hag sung his praises since the pre-season when he got injured.

And one of the things about United's bad start to the season was that they were waiting for Mayning to come back in.

Since he's been back in, there have been signs that something might be happening at Man United.

And whatever happens, they've got a possible franchise player there.

But as I said, Paul Pogba costs 89 million when he was on the Man United books.

Don't let this guy go to Juventus for peanuts as they did Pogba.

He looks the real deal, doesn't he?

I think Paul Scholes came out and said that I've noticed people are comparing Cobby Maino to me

and I'd just like to say that he is 10 times the player I was at that age.

That's praise indeed, I would say.

I suppose the only thing with that is that Scolesy didn't really mature till he was about 23, 24,

before he played as a sort of forward player.

And there was a certain point where he started dropping back through the team to be the point where he was that midfielder.

That probably didn't settle until his 30s.

Also, Skoles, Scoles being Scoles, is pretty harsh on himself.

Paul Scholes as a teenager was still an unbelievable talent.

That's the point, isn't it?

And, you know, if you speak to those that went to the youth team games at that time, Scoles is one of those outstanding players.

But, yeah, listen, Maynou is a player for Manchester United fans to get excited about.

And Manchester United fans getting excited about players in the team.

Well, that hasn't happened too often the last 10 years, has it?

And I wonder, Norz, how much of the post-game was just being happy, and how much was going, where's this been all season?

Well, that's that's completely it, um, and and it's and it's baffling.

Um, just as much as the result was uh was a surprise, the performance, you do kind of think, where was that?

And it also, this whole sort of conversation about Ten Hag,

it just confuses matters because you do kind of think,

where were the tactics before?

The thing with this season is that

the number of games,

and it's almost been every game where you've seen United win, lose, or draw.

The other team just looks so much more tactically adept.

They know what they're doing.

The players know what they're doing.

And United have lost games, won games, drawn games where they just seem...

aimless.

There seems to be no plan, no shape.

And watching those games makes you think, what is Ten Hag doing?

What is he telling the players?

How can this be the same manager that made Ajax play this beautiful football and this really effective football in Europe as well?

It just baffles you because you know throughout the season, you know that Ten Hague is not that bad a manager, but then you're confused as to what he's trying to do.

This whole thing about conceding all those shots, conceding 30 shots a game, and that was the complete opposite of this cup final where City just couldn't get a chance off.

And

it just, if anything, it just confuses matters more because you kind of think,

is this a harbinger to what is to come?

What Ten Hag can bring to the team, or is this a one-off?

It just

confuses matters in terms of the future, really.

Yeah, Jacob Steinberg wrote a story on Friday that Eric Ten Hag was going to be sacked no matter the result.

Ben asks, Was Shira and Nineke out of order to ask Eric Ten Hag those questions just after he'd won the FA Cup?

My reasoned brain says that it's perfectly acceptable journalism, but it clearly upset him a bit, and so instinctively it felt wrong to me.

And I hate Man United, he says.

What do you think, Barry?

I think it was entirely fair for them to ask because it's a major talking point, and the story was broken by Draco the previous day, and everyone else sort of followed up on it on Saturday.

He's just won the cup final, but

on the one hand, he's won a trophy in each of his two seasons in charge.

On the other, he has just masterminded Manchester United's worst ever finish in the Premier League era.

They had a negative goal difference.

They lost 14 matches in the Premier League.

They conceded 18 shots a game on average, as Nas said.

They went out of the Champions League in the group stages.

And that's...

Not really acceptable, is it?

Now, he always blames it on injuries.

and that's fair enough up to a point because we saw how improved they were with Lessandro Martinez and Raphael Varan who really did a number on Haaland Martinez in particular

but lots of other clubs had injury crisis as well Aston Villa Brighton Sheffield United Newcastle some managers complained at great length about their injuries others said

look it's not Una Emery for example no we we operate a no excuses culture here, just got on with the job and did a very good job, despite having several key players out for long periods, or if not the entire season, with injuries.

So

the injuries excuse where I don't really buy it.

Eric Ten Hagg is also the guy who spent £80 million on Anthony, who wanted him brought into the club.

That's got to be one of the worst transfers in the history of the Premier League.

Because not only did he not deliver, he caused all sorts of off-view problems as well.

So, a ringing endorsement then for Ten Hagton?

No, sorry.

The question was, is it fair of them to ask?

Yeah, it definitely is.

And he's also entitled to mount a robust defence and be annoyed that they're reining on his parade.

Oh, speaking of parades,

when Nazi was sort of talking about how it will feel when Man United next win the title in five, ten, or a hundred years' time, does that is that mean it's sort of fair that the city parade

compared to you know and it's not the key part of this we'll talk about their performance um but they've just you know they keep winning the premier league like you're not gonna be you're just not gonna be delirious you've just lost the cup final i think it's sort of understandable out of interest i watched a bit of the video of uh the city's official video of that uh some interesting camera angles extreme close-ups that perhaps showed it perhaps didn't show the full expanse you're saying it was it was trump Trump and up

with Washington, yeah.

But I don't think it was quite that

a few did go down.

But I was thinking that you know, if you've been number one in the charts and it's your fifth week at number one and you've got to go back to top of the pops,

can you still give Brian Adams?

Brian Adams, absolutely.

Remember wet, wet, wet, by the end of that run.

We're just like, oh, God, this is, you know, it's like a feeling as oh, Jesus, you know, and

those.

I mean, Jack Grealish can always get the party going.

Kyle Walker, too.

But if you're, say, Ruben Diaz or someone, you're going to be who is, I think, has won the league every season, he's been there.

Are you going to get up for this party?

I'm not sure you are.

And I thought it was a little unnecessary for City to have this.

Four in a row, no one's ever done it.

Absolutely.

I appreciate that.

It is a great achievement.

But it did seem a little tone-deaf considering they lost the cup final to United to have this.

You could just say, yeah, we're going to call it off and we'll have a celebration back at Eastland's over in the summer or something.

And it just looked a bit weird.

The rain didn't help them and it rather backfired on City.

City fans are entitled to celebrate all that, of course.

But a bit naff.

I mean, really?

The rain did help them last year, didn't they?

With that sort of greelish, sort of look like a Caravaggio.

It was like amazing, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was amazing.

They didn't really, look, United were excellent, and they stopped City.

And,

you know, and it's interesting, Nas, because

lots of people have said it, and it does feel like City haven't quite been at it this year, even though they've got 91 points this season.

I don't know what you think, Norz.

Yeah, I think

it's one of those seasons.

Well, it's a strange season because on the one hand, it did look like it was going to be a three-horse race.

Arsenal have been incredible, and yet, like you say, City haven't been at their best.

And also, a number of players just haven't performed quite as well as you would have thought.

But again, you can understand why City fans would be frustrated because if Arsenal had won the league and they could have,

if the results had been different on the last day, then everyone will be raving about Arsenal.

Everyone will be talking about how amazing this Arsenal team is and what Artes has done.

But because City won it, it's just another season and it wasn't as good as last season, and it feels like a bit of a damp squib.

So

it's so strange.

Yeah, I was going to say, Nos is absolutely right.

I just remember, remember the, Nos remember, of course,

the 99-2000 season.

Manchester United won the league by, I think, like 18 points or something, having won the treble of season four.

But it felt like, I mean, I think the, I think Phil Neville scored the decisive goal.

It was that pathetic an ending to the season that Pip Neville is scoring the goal to decide the title.

It was that easy that it and obviously City hasn't found it that easy, but it's just like, yeah, we won the league.

And

I've said this before.

I think once your team becomes ultra-successful,

the emotions of success change.

Success becomes relief rather than utter joy.

And that those are the emotions that City fans are going through now.

Jack Gorm in the Daily Mail

are reporting that Pep is set to leave at the end of next season, which for neutrals is

sensational news.

Or not.

I don't know what you think.

If you mean good news,

I suppose it is, because we're all interested to see what happens when he leaves this project that's, you know, was tailored specifically to his every need at great and questionable expense.

I don't think it's sensational news.

I would be surprised if he stayed on after next season, to be honest.

I half expected him to walk away at the end of last season

when they won the treble.

So, yeah, his contract expires.

He's been at City longer than he's stayed at any other club as a manager.

And

I wouldn't.

It's a good story for Jack to break, but I don't think it's a sensational.

Sorry, I didn't mean sensational

show-stopping news.

Fair enough.

yeah i sort of meant sort of good for you know the the competition oh yeah yeah well in in in taking that meaning um yeah because for neutrals we we all neutral we all want to see my city fall flat on their face don't we and um there's a very good chance that could happen once pep gardiola leaves but then there's also a very good chance that someone who has learnt at his knee, whether they're already at the club, whether they're at a different club in London, North London,

whoever will take over and they'll just continue to relentlessly grind out, you know, league title after league title.

I've just had a thought.

Um, maybe that's why he was wearing the suit.

Maybe he was going to make a big announcement if City won.

Four in a row, a double-double, and he'd, he'd, he'd gone to the effort of wearing a suit rather than that gross

shacket or whatever it is, that that jumper, that jumper coat thing, and he was going to make a big announcement because he looked so uncomfortable in that suit.

And yeah,

that suit felt like, do you know, Pep's always

making a strange decision for a big game?

Maybe that was his big, big moment.

He overthought it.

He lost it.

He overthought his outfit.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Eric Denhag was wearing very high trousers and no socks.

Or maybe little ankle socks.

Surely that's what

a Dutchman does, though, right?

All he needs to do is just take those trousers off, just and just underneath the speedos to wear on the beach in Majorca or wherever.

You know, that's the

very much.

I wondered how stereotypical you can get.

Take those shoes off, stick on some clogs, put a wingy on his head,

and then, you know,

clogs and speedos.

That would be interesting, yeah.

I think this has been a good FA Cup, Baz.

The magic of the cup, remember?

You know, you had Maidstone, Coventry, Man United, Liverpool games.

Been a lot to enjoy, I think.

Yeah, I mean, I love the FA Cup.

I always have.

I think I've said ad nauseum on this.

You know, when I was a kid, that's the competition you

dreamt of winning.

You fantasised about scoring the winner in a left hand cup or lifting the FA Cup.

I don't think that's the case for kids anymore, but

I'm a huge FA Cup fan and it did make me sad when you start seeing championship teams putting out second string sides and

mid mid-table Premier League teams making no effort to win this competition that is their only half-decent chance of winning a trophy.

You know, teams like just to pick at random Wolves, Palace, Fulham, you know,

when they're not going all out to win it.

Yeah, this has been a good competition this season.

Mallam writes, if Chelsea win the Conference League, Carabao Cup and Club World Cup next season, is that a treble?

Yeah, so because United won the Cup there in the Europa League, Chelsea going going to the Conference League, Newcastle have no European football.

Perhaps it's interesting that the Europa and Conference Leagues might be easier to win, or there'll be less depth because of there's 25 Italian and 25 German teams in the Champions League now.

So it'd be interesting to see how.

Did you see that Newcastle at three o'clock on Saturday were six to one favourites to win the Conference League?

Weren't they?

And had to be removed from the tissue

about five o'clock.

Yeah.

Wow, that's very interesting.

Probably fair enough at that time, wasn't it?

Yeah, probably not much chance of them doing it this time.

Before we move on from the FA Cup, we've joked about this in the past, but

Erling Haaland, big game bottler, I'm putting it out there.

Oh, okay.

Now, again, as I said with Tin Hag, on the one hand, he's won the Premier League Golden Boot.

And he has scored 90 goals in 98 games for Manchester City.

No one can deny that's pretty good.

But

he didn't score in last season's Champions League semi-final or final.

He didn't score in either leg of the quarterfinal this season in which City were eliminated.

In 10 semi-finals and finals across his career, he has scored two goals.

Since joining City, he's played two Community Shields, two FA Cups and a Champions League final.

He hasn't scored in any of them.

And this season, Man City lost three games in the Premier League against Wolves, Arsenal, and Aston Villa.

He did not score in any of those games.

So while I'm prepared to concede that Erling is quite a prolific goal scorer, I do think there is very strong evidence readily available to suggest that he is a big game bottler.

Thoughts?

Noted for the record.

I put it in Hansard.

Anybody want to counter it?

The only thing I would say is that poor old Julian Alvarez

seemed to have inherited Erling's shooting boots when he came on.

He really did have a poor game.

I mean, surely there must be, it feels like there should be someone saying, come on, he's really good.

It's sort of what I'm waiting for.

But Barry has put a very strong case there, Nas, hasn't he?

He has.

Have you seen the tweet I've just put in the group, which is an argument that someone's made very eloquently about

Harland and also Grealish in terms of getting sucked into the system.

Prop Joe saying he got clockwork oranged.

This is in answer to what happened to Haaland.

Same process that Grealish went through to go from a flare player, the X-Factor, the box office he was at Villa, to the soulless, boring, backpass zombie he is now.

Blindly, all are cogs in Satan's totalitarian system.

Any ounce of creativity, and you're in the gulag.

I mean, that is

best taking it to a certain extreme, isn't it?

Anyway, from that, we'll go to the championship playoff final.

Ben Visch will join us in just a second.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Ben Fisher joins us.

He was at Wembley yesterday.

Hey, Ben.

Hi, Max.

Jack says, has someone bestowed a witch's curse upon Leeds united in the playoffs if so can they please remove it because frankly it's not funny anymore yep leeds nil southampton won adam armstrong's goal after 24 minutes um uh you were there as well john i'll start with you ben what did you make of it yeah i mean i thought uh leeds first few minutes you thought okay they're gonna have a go they they i think settled the better the first one i know five six seven minutes and then from there A couple of early but very tame chances and Southampton, to their credit, just took control, looked really comfortable.

And certainly, once they went in front, Leeds just didn't really appear to have any kind of plan B, seemed to kind of run out of ideas.

The key players were stifled or kind of went missing, really.

And Southampton nailed it, you have to say, and I thought they were really impressive.

They had to show maybe a different side towards the end.

Obviously, Dan James hit the bar late on, and you know, there was that typical kind of little nervy finale, but never really looked too worried, which I think is testament to how they set up on the day.

John?

Yeah, but Ben, as ever, sums it up perfectly.

Yeah, Leeds

did the weight of history get to them.

I had to do the colour piece, and I worked out the last time they won at Wembley, Eric Cantonar was playing for them.

Yeah, Charity Shield, wasn't it?

Charity Shield against Liverpool, yeah.

Yeah, they haven't won anything

actually important at Wembley since 72.

72, yeah.

And so, I mean, you have this idea, don't you, with Archie Gray, who is this really talented, I mean, he's only just 18.

I was reading that until about a month ago,

for

reasons of,

what's the word, safeguarding, he had to change in a different changing room to his teammates

and then go out and play.

But he's a really talented player.

And there was an initial burst where you just thought, well, you know, this is where leads are going to win the game.

And yet, that didn't happen again.

One of the problems that leads had is that Gray and Ampidou, probably two of their more capable players, were playing in defence.

Ampidou was sort of responsible for

involved in the goal, was sucked out by Will Smallbone, who had a very good game through to Adam Armstrong.

That's a really cool finish considering

the occasion.

I was down at Southampton on Friday, and Russell Martin, who's a very impressive guy, very impressive hair, by the way,

was talking about how

you need someone in a game like that, a manager puts the team out to try and play the football that

they want to play, but you also need someone to keep the nerve, supply the magic.

And that's what they did.

But there were some great performances from Southampton players.

I mean, Flynn Downs, who Ben picked out in his piece, was excellent.

Jack Stevens playing slightly out of position.

in that back three, had a magnificent game.

And then you've got players like Alex McCarthy, who

I think that probably is going to be his last game for Southampton.

He's been at the club or in and around the club through various loans for a long time.

He made a save again from Dan James.

And then also got Chey Adams, you know, who I think back in the transfer window in August, expected to leave, stayed.

And he came on as a centre-forward, but ended up just doing one of those things where a centre-forward comes and just heads the ball away when it's corner after corner.

Heroic Heroic stuff from Southampton.

They deserve to win on the day.

For leads, the idea of another 46 games, another possible playoff, another visit to Wembley,

and the idea that you might have to sell players like Grey and stuff like that.

It can't be feeling too good today.

Yeah, not the top 20 tweeting their playoff record.

In 1987, they lost.

In 2006, they lost.

In 2008, they lost.

I mean, it does sound very much like in 1984, someone died.

You know, 2009, they lost.

2019, they lost.

2024,

they lost.

That is a disastrous run.

After the game,

Ben Russell Martin,

he said, he sort of went full Vincent company, didn't he?

He said, we're not going to change our style.

I mean, presumably he's angling for the Real Madrid or the Juventus job the year after this one.

But what do you envisage for Southampton next season?

Yeah, and it's interesting.

I know you're sort of joking there, but he did mention that, you know, Mareska and McKenna being linked with every job going.

So, and on a sort of serious note, I suppose you, I think, I suppose that one of the feelings I had coming away last night was actually the job he has done.

You know, let's face it, they had a really talented squad.

They've come down from the Premier League with

good players.

But

what he's done and what he's changed, you know, totally new kind of style,

massive kind of change of personnel.

I think 19 players left last summer, as

what happens with relegations.

But unlike Leicester, Southampton probably and he had to put more pieces in place I think he had to probably build more things

you know Downs people like that came in and have been really pivotal to the system Harwood Bellis who now joins permanently and I did think yesterday that Downs and Harwood Bellis were probably the maybe the two best players on the pitch or certainly contenders to be but I think what he's done is

shouldn't really go unnoticed and as you say

He did say yesterday, you know, I'm going to stick to my guns and I'm going to play my way.

And I think it's something something that's ate away at him a little while now and he sort of tongue-in-cheek said you know now we finally won something he knows that the the sort of stick to beat him with for a while has been yeah it's all right playing this way and this sort of fancy stuff or

but you know possession for possession's sake and you know but what have you got to show for it well now he's like okay well i've won promotion the first time really when that's been a sort of genuine possibility you know mk don's in swansea with respect that it just wasn't going to happen but obviously he got um

won lots of praise for the style and now he's sort of been able to marry the two with a decent squad and the style and it and it's come off so I think what you they played Liverpool in the cup earlier in the season and before that he said exactly the same I think they lost heavily from from memory but It's going to be tough and he's going to have to maybe play like they did towards the back end of that game yesterday.

And it might be a bit more ugly at times in, you know, sort of Jack Stevens throwing himself in front of things in Bednarek.

But again, these are guys who actually, you know, they're not new kids on the block.

Stevens, Bed Norek, even Harvard Bellis is vastly experienced for somebody of his age.

Obviously, he won it with Burnley last season.

So I think it's going to be very tough,

but they're going to go down and they're going to go up, sorry, doing it their way.

And just knowing Russell Martin and his staff and the way they operate it, they will not relent on that.

I don't think.

So it will be interesting, especially obviously, given how

if the start of the season is positive or difficult, it would be interesting.

Joe, as I was saying, it's worth saying,

and both Ben and I probably did quite a lot of Southampton last season, what a mess that club was a year ago.

I mean, good lord, you remember that season, you know, where they had Ralph Harson Huttle, then they had Nathan Jones, and then they had Reuben Sellers.

I mean, that was, and every game I went to down at St.

Mary's was utter chaos because the games were just so disordered.

It was like no one was in charge.

It was just unbelievable.

And

you've got to credit the sport report going as well.

They've backed, and they went for someone like Russell Martin, who a fairly renegade choice because of what Ben talks about, the style of play, and it's got them up there.

Um, let's see how they go.

But best of luck to them.

Jonathan Wilson texted us last night to remind us that

we can have another season ahoy of um being confused over uh yannick Yannick Vestergaard and Jan Bednarak, who've both been promoted back to the Premier League.

And even as I was saying that, I wasn't quite sure which one was Yannick and which one was Jan.

I was just wondering about Russell Martin because I'm pretty new to him.

And

because I put a glib comment

on Twitter over the weekend, doesn't sound like you.

Doesn't sound like you, no.

I know, I know.

Leeds versus Sunak, as in, like, who would I rather lose or win somebody replied um that russell martin's like a really interesting person and actually when asked about sunak said he wouldn't be welcoming welcoming him into the um into the changing room and then i did a bit of a sort of um went into a bit of a russell martin wormhole and like he seems like a fascinating person in terms of like

he's part owner of the largest vegan restaurant in the uk he's um he's a member of the green party i think he's he's a buddhist he's got he's got his own foundation i i just wondered like how does he come across?

And he doesn't seem like your average football manager.

No, I think he's a really interesting and engaging guy.

I had the sort of pleasure of sitting in on a team meeting earlier in the season, even just seeing how he talks to his players, the way he gets buy-in.

Obviously, this was sort of mid-season, so you know, things are going pretty well.

But I think he's quite a refreshing guy.

I mean, some people probably won't like it.

He's extremely self-assured.

He really believes in what he's doing.

He believes in his way.

He, as you say sort of i think it's fair to say kind of despises rishi rishi sunak and i think that's um probably quite quite has been at times a bit of a difficult one to sort of toe the party line i suppose when rishi's popping up to your games like the west brom one in the in the semi so

i i i think he's going to be a massive sort of uh

credit and and big sort of um yeah it'd be great to have him in the premier league because i think he'll be really interesting he's a really good thinker and let's face it he had a really good career as well you know he he sort of is quite self-deprecating, I suppose, and said, Oh, it's rubbish, you know, average career, but he's played for his country, he's played over 600 games, captain Norwich to the Premier League via the playoff final.

You know, this is a guy who's extremely well connected, knows an awful lot of people.

Remember chatting to him earlier in the season, he was saying, you know, coaches can come down and see my sessions.

He's got

kind of quite a I don't know, open door policy, whatever you want to call it.

He's very relaxed.

He'll let everyone in, he'll let coaches in, he'll let you in, but he won't let Rishi Sunak in.

It's just open for everybody else.

Yeah, no,

I think,

yeah, I think he's going to be a big addition to the Premier League.

And also, you should remember he was being linked with Lester.

Lester wanted to speak to him last summer.

Leeds were interested.

Obviously,

he's got up and, yeah, he's hot property.

What about Daniel Farker?

Is he still hot property?

Well, I did enjoy yesterday that he dipped into footballing cliche, which is something I've enjoyed recently because he said, you know, we've not taken leads back into the promised promised land.

He said it a couple of times.

And it reminded me that a few weeks ago, Una Emery did similar at Aston Villa and he said, you know, we've had a bad day at the office, which I think we should respect foreign managers dipping into pure

rule, kind of unfiltered cliché.

But will he keep his job?

I mean,

do you think he'll stay?

Yeah,

I think he'll stay.

I think it's going to be a, you know, they're going to be favourites to go back up next season, but there will be a lot of changes.

You know, Somerville, Nonto

will almost certainly go, I would have thought, and probably to pretty impressive clubs.

I think,

John alluded to earlier, I think it'd be interesting what happens to Archie Gray because

this is a guy who is extremely talented.

He's played a stupid amount of games for somebody who's just turned 18.

Do they keep him?

It's different because Calvin Phillips was older, but it feels a little bit like that.

Calvin Phillips was actually there yesterday getting mobbed by Leeds fans.

And

yeah, obviously Archie Gray, with all the Leeds connections and sort of family pedigree, it'd be nice if he stayed, but he's bound to have

people wanting to take him this summer, albeit for a big fee.

Yeah, I believe Leeds owe an awful lot for previous transfers as well, don't they?

So it's going to be difficult.

It almost, as ever, if you drop down, you need to bounce almost straight back up to pay the bills for that.

And

the owners, it's a 49ers enterprise, is that what they're called?

They've got to dig deep, I suppose, and assist Daniel Farco.

But I think he seems pretty popular with Leeds fans still.

I don't think that's necessarily going to be held against him,

but unless you know when the season starts badly, then it will be held against him.

That's how football goes, isn't it?

One of those 49ers who was previously sort of Barack Obama's right-hand man and aide

is a big Football Weekly listener.

Do you know who they are?

Yes.

Ah.

Oh, well, welcome.

Jim.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's just like a secret.

This is exciting.

No, it's not really a secret.

Oh, okay.

But.

Oh, well, you're very.

You are very welcome, as everyone is.

As is Farrakhabama.

But not Rishi Suna.

You can't catch a break for blokes.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

Ben, you can go away.

Thanks, mate.

Lovely.

Thank you.

Jim Bessina is his name.

Jim Bessina.

It was gone out of my head.

I thought you were being really coy.

Yeah.

I thought it was like, who is this?

Who is this?

It's like the guy in the X-Files.

Well,

he got in touch with me to inquire if I wanted to go for a pint.

And sadly, I was unavailable.

Sorry, who is he?

Yes.

Jim Messina.

He was basically Barack Obama's right-hand man when he was president.

God, surely he's got better things to do than us to this.

Hasn't he?

Anyway.

What were you doing, Barry, instead?

I was out in the country.

I was away on holidays.

I won't drop everything to go for a pint with just anyone, John.

You know how fussy I am.

You've been in my local pub.

Yeah, the biggest surprise was Barry was not available for this.

Absolutely.

That's the real story of all of this.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

Part three.

We'll begin with the Scottish Cup final.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

Now, if you're a regular listener to this show, you'll have heard us talk before about the Remarkable Paper Pro.

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Yeah, it's their most portable paper tablet yet.

It holds all your notes, to-dos, and documents, but it's smaller than a paperback and an incredible 0.26 inches thin, so it slips easily into a bag or jacket pocket.

Perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office, like maybe a football journalist, Barry.

Although not like you.

A proper football journalist, Matthew.

Exactly.

Too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out.

This paper tablet doesn't.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, Adam Eda scored in the 90th minute to give Celtic a win over Rangers in the Scottish Cup final at Hamden to win the double.

Oh, and Barry, I mean, you've got to feel for Jack Butland.

Byrd accounts have been brilliant for Rangers this season, but spilled that one right at the death.

Well, I mean, this was the first Scottish Cup final between Celtic and Rangers in 22 years.

That blew my mind because I just sort of presume that every second year they play a cup final.

But no, first one 22 to years.

And I went and I had a look because I literally did not believe that could be possible.

And only six of the

previous 21 didn't have either Rangers or Celtic in them.

Rangers were probably the better team in this.

It wasn't a great game.

It was quite scrappy.

Rangers thought they'd taken the lead.

James Tavernier sent in a brilliant in-swinging corner,

which

Dallas Seamon converted at the far post, but it was disallowed because Rangers midfielder Nicholas Raskin had quite clearly shoved Joe Hart in the small of the back.

And there was no need for him to do that because they would have scored anyway.

Exactly.

It was just stupid, stupid foul from Raskin.

Keogo for a Hashi It wasn't really happening for him for Celtic.

Adam Ida came on for him.

And then late in the game, when it looked like it was heading for extra time, Paolo Bernardo, another substitute, he advanced past our friend, Mr.

Raskin, skipped past him, advanced,

shot from distance.

Jack Butland parried the ball, but it went straight to...

to Adam Ide, who scored on the follow-up.

So Celtic win again.

I think that's five games they played against Rangers this season.

One four, one draw.

And they win the League Cup double.

It was Joe Hart's final game as a professional footballer.

And he gave an incredibly humble post-match interview.

He kind of acknowledged that when he went to Celtic, his career was in the toilet.

He didn't know if it would work out for him.

He didn't even know if he was going to be first choice.

And he's gone on to win seven trophies

with Celtic.

And

in the three seasons he's been there, really, you know, goes out on a high.

And I'm glad for him, actually, because he seems like a really nice fella.

And

it did look as if his career was just going to fizzle out and end with an ignominious whimper.

And just a word for John Lundstrom, who

was back after a suspension for that shocking challenge against Alistair Johnson in the previous old firm Derby.

And it was almost the very last action of the game.

He went in on another shocking challenge, Matt O'Reilly over by the touchline, and which O'Reilly sort of jumped out of it.

If he had caught Matt O'Reilly, I would say he would almost certainly have broken his leg.

It was just thuggery.

I don't know what Lundstrom's problem is.

He clearly has

issues when it comes comes to keeping his head on big occasions.

But

it didn't really get commented on because the final whistle went almost immediately after it.

But as soon as the free kick was taken, but it was an absolutely shocking challenge, which should have got another red card for him.

But anyway, that's just a footnote to what was another good day for Celtic and Brendan Rogers and Joe Hurt.

And Adam E.

Day, Ireland's Adam E.

Day.

Yeah, well done to them.

West Hand News, June and Lopategui was confirmed shortly after we finished the pod on Thursday, but we all knew that was happening.

On Lucas Pakatar, the FA has been looking into allegations that he deliberately picked up yellow cards against Leicester, Villa, Leeds, and Bournemouth in 2022-23.

He said, I'm extremely surprised and upset that the FA has decided to charge me.

For nine months, I've cooperated with every step of their investigation, provided all the information I can.

I deny the charges in their entirety.

We'll fight with every breath to clear my name, West Ham said.

Lucas categorically denies the breach and and will continue to robustly defend his position.

The club will continue to stand by and support the player throughout the process.

John?

I was going to say that this was the first time I'd ever heard of a Paquetta Island.

Oh, yes.

I'm assuming that he is named after the island rather than

the island being named after him.

Or it's just a coincidence.

I mean, if I was Welsh and lived next door to Mike Bobbins, I'd be from Barry Island.

Yeah.

And

that would be nice.

And there was just no connection.

Yeah.

Maybe is everyone called Paquetta from Paquetta Island?

I don't know.

I mean, he really needs to defend this robustly because he is screwed if he's found guilty.

That could be a career ender.

And it probably should be a career ender because he's not just been accused of breaking gambling regulations.

He's been accused of spot fixing.

And that is a very, very, very serious offence.

Yeah, if you remember what happened to those Pakistan cricketers 10 years ago or so,

they served jails time.

So incredibly serious charges if he faces them.

Katie says, I hope there'll be a mention for Lucy Bronze becoming the first English player to win the Champions League five times at two different clubs.

Yeah, Barcelona beat Leon 2-0.

Pateas and Bon Matisse scored the goals for Barcelona.

Two of the best players in the world, as we all know.

The Women's Football Weekly is out tomorrow, wherever you get your pods.

We will cover Javi getting sacked by Barcelona and appointing Hansi Flick, uh company and Bayern and all that on tomorrow's Europod uh Plymouth have appointed Wayne Rooney as their new head coach uh already the third efl club he's managed um i'm sort of not

respectful that wayne rooney is you know mixing it down there i think there were probably players of his ilk who just would stop bothering i mean plymouth are in the championship right have they relegated well then the

championship aren't they they stayed up on the last day yeah yeah no i think it's i think it's really impressive i think it just shows that he just wants to be involved in football it's not necessarily a case of

an ego thing of wanting to be as high up as possible

in the football sort of like ladder.

He wants to be involved in football.

He wants to show that he's a good manager.

And yeah,

these jobs that he's going for and getting

is a testament to sort of how he's got a lack of ego in terms of proving himself.

What better job could he realistically expect to get, with all due respect?

He was a disaster at Birmingham, more or less got them relegated uh he hadn't particularly he did an okay job at derby i think well isn't the point that he he couldn't get another better job but he's decided to carry on going as opposed to but managing the championship is pretty good i mean you could argue that it's

he isn't good enough to to manage in the championship the funny thing is that uh over the weekend everyone was raving about him as a pundit um especially for his little exchange with with mika Richards.

So I suppose that's the argument that it's not a case of he's going there instead of going to another club.

It's that he's going there instead of having a very cushy job as a pundit

or a talking head.

Or sitting around the warm-up sofa, yeah.

I mean, his

I noticed that he is, I think, the

fourth manager in succession of Plymouth, who is from Liverpool.

After Ryan Lowe, Steve Schumacher, Ian Foster, and and now Wayne Rooney.

Plymouth and Liverpool.

Well, isn't one of the Plymouth

chief execs?

He used to be in Everton Culture.

I think that's the connection.

I think that may be the case, yeah.

It's not Jan Mulby is

the

chief exec of who owns Plymouth.

It's John Aldridge and Ian Rush together, isn't it?

I know they're not all from Liverpool, but

you know what I mean.

Anyway, Andrew says, no questions.

I did want to share that I made a point of saving Thursday's pod to listen to at the Indianapolis 500 today.

So you could say that it's been listened to at the largest single-day sporting event in the world.

I hope it lasts me this entire rain delay.

I don't know if we, unless you played it on speaker.

I'm not sure it can count to our listening figures.

And two football weekly weddings.

So chance for us to all buy another new hat.

Christopher says, not a question, something I thought you might like.

I'm getting married to my wonderful fiancé, Curly Vicks, on social media on Thursday.

She tries to be into football but admits she struggles to keep up with the names etc.

She did know the name of Moises Kaisedo though after his big money move later on the year she asked me how Moises Kaisedo was getting on at West Ham.

West Ham I said he moved to Chelsea so why is he Moises then if he doesn't play for West Ham in her wonderful misunderstanding she believed that Moyes was a Moises was a possessive rather than Moises his name and he belonged to David Moyes and thus played for West Ham Wish us well, please.

Good luck to both of you.

I do like the idea that Moyes' Kaisedo has, by virtue of his name, have to just follow David Moyes wherever he goes for the rest of his life.

This is from Anna says, dear Max Barry and the rest of the pod, three years ago, I listened to my first Football Weekly podcast on a road trip with my then-boyfriend.

It was our first road trip together and equally importantly, it was the same date as the 2021-22 Premier League preview podcast episodes.

My then-boyfriend stopped the podcast after Max Barry, Jordan and John discussed each team.

He added a bit more color commentary, if you will, about each team's backstory, highs and lows, and keys players, not to mention commentary on the various pod contributors' highs and lows.

I was never really a sports fan and knew nothing about football, but somehow I was sucked in while listening to the pod discuss teams, rivalries, obscure jokes, predictions.

Anyway, it's three years later.

We're getting married this weekend.

I've become an obsessive Arsenal fan, and I can't get enough of it.

I listen to your pod religiously each week.

I listen to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly, and I follow the NWSL for women's soccer in the US.

Somehow, becoming the type of delusional football fan who'll get up at ungodly hours to watch Arsenal games from the US has made my life better, not worse.

And listening to Football Weekly has been the best type of education on the game.

I laughed until I cried at the Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, piss song.

I cried at Nick Ames' fantastic reporting on football during wartime.

And I've always felt welcome as a listener, as a woman, even as a newbie.

So I just wanted to say thank you to the pod for helping create this deranged passion.

in me and thanks to Sam, my now almost husband, for starting it all.

All the best, Anna.

Sadio, Barry, you've got

Anna and Sam, and you've got Chris and Vic, or Vic's, who you can wish all the best to in your own inimitable fashion.

How about Chris and Vic and Sam and Anna?

I do wish you all the best.

Anna, I would wager, is more interested in football than any of us.

Because I wouldn't get out of bed at an ungodly hour to watch Arsenal play.

I I really feel she has my sympathy.

Why she picked Arsenal?

I don't know.

But

yeah, I wish them every happiness.

And when the inevitable boredom sets in, maybe they could think about meeting up and swapping or something.

And why not?

Oh, by the way, I have checked, and Jim Messina was Barack Obama's chief of staff.

I knew he was quite senior, but I didn't realize.

Do you think that's the most important?

That's the most, I mean, of course, all of us are equal and all listeners are

as important as one another.

But do you think that's the most important

person that's listening right now?

Probably.

I'd be surprised if anyone more important.

Well, I mean, he's no longer Baraka Bama's.

He's no longer important.

Well, Rishi Sunak's turned off.

That's true.

Yeah.

All right.

That'll do for today.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Thanks, John.

Cheers.

Thank you, Nos.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.