Atalanta’s huge night and Mauricio Pochettino moves on: Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Lots to do today.

We'll begin with the Europa League final.

Perhaps the only person more excited than Jean-Pierre Gasfarini will be Nikki Bandini, who's been banging the Atalanta drum for as long as I can remember.

A stunning win over unbeaten by Leverkusen.

A hat-trick for Adam Mola Luckman.

Three brilliant finishes, just so, so good.

And then to Stamford Bridge, as we said on Monday, Chelsea would be mad to park company with Maurizio Pochettino after their excellent end to the season.

And so Chelsea parked company with Maurizio Pochettino after their excellent end to the season.

Not a surprise there then, but maybe a surprise at St.

George's Park.

Has Gareth taken off the handbrake?

No Henderson, no Rashford, Wharton, Eze, and all those fun attackers.

How nervous is Barry now?

After that, there's Vincent Company to buy Munich.

You what now?

An FA Cup final preview, a nice idea from Australia, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hello, Max.

Hello, Mark Langdon from the Racing Post.

Hi, Max.

And hello, Sanny Rudravagula.

Welcome.

Hello, welcome as well to everyone else.

I don't know why I'm saying that, but yeah, hello.

No, no, no.

That's very kind of you.

That's lofty ambition, taking over the pod just like that i can't believe it so brazen right in front of me you want your first touch to be good touch and i've got to score my own goal

well you're very welcome before i chat to you guys nikki bandini was flying to her cousin's wedding uh but i was desperate to hear how delighted she was so i caught up with her to celebrate atalanta's win Nikki, I just wanted to hear how excited you were.

The line isn't amazing.

You're at the airport going on holiday.

None of that matters.

Just tell us how you felt when you saw Adamola Luckman put in that third goal.

Yeah, I'm going to my cousin's wedding actually.

So it's sort of not quite holiday because the football season isn't quite over, but there's a wedding for the final weekend.

It was a brilliant performance by Ashantra and by Luckman in that final, wasn't it?

I just think to go through from the quarterfinals beating Liverpool at Anfield 3-0 to the semi-finals beating...

Marseille 3-0 at home to then go and win the final winning 3-0 again.

You couldn't do it in a more emphatic way.

And Adamola Luckman couldn't have done it in a more Adam Ola Luckman way, frankly.

I think when you look at his game and how he's developed as a player under Gasparini in Italy, he talked about this in an interview actually quite recently about specifically how in Italy, one of the differences he finds is that space is a bit more restricted.

And one of the things he said to work on in his game is finding those spaces within the frame of the goal.

being able to pick your moment and to drift.

And I think that first goal in particular, he was just probably shocked by how much space Baya Leber Kusen gave him because they gave him so much space on that first goal but but atalanta were brilliant they did they did everything that atalanta do

to the best that they do it i felt like in this final and perhaps unfortunately leberkusin didn't do the best things they do yeah and like you have sort of banged on about gasprudio for as long as i can remember and atalanta and he has just one of those smiles doesn't he when he's sort of jigging about after each goal he's a total joy to watch he really is and i think he's he's in his joyful era i think you see this this with players and managers they hit certain points in their career where there's almost a degree of self-knowing and they know the things that have gone well and haven't gone well and they've reached a degree of confidence in themselves that they're no longer going to allow themselves to be defined by almost by other people's standards and Gasparini was kind of banging this drum a bit full time because he was saying well it doesn't change anything that I've won a trophy was I not a good manager before and now I'm suddenly a good manager just because I have this this medal, it doesn't change anything.

And I think that almost encapsulates everything about how he's been on this run to the final, even before the Coppitalia final, which they lost actually the other day.

And bearing in mind that Gasparini has been without this moment in his whole career, he hasn't won a major trophy.

And before the Coppitalia final, he was sort of at the press conference giving the trophy a stroke.

And everyone in Italy was horrified, saying superstitiously, this is terrible to do.

You can't touch the trophy.

And the same approach to this final of just throwing superstition out, not caring about any of it because of, I suppose, the confidence in the work he was doing.

And yeah,

he was an absolute joy.

I mean, 66 years old and winning his first ever trophy.

It's so hard not to be happy for someone like that.

And especially, I think, when you consider some of the ups and downs along the way, you go back to thinking about Atinta when he got all of five games in charge before they...

tossed him out and how people for a long time just acted as though that meant he wasn't good enough to do a big club job for a long time.

I think it really is vindication of his methods that he's stayed at Ashlander for so long.

He's really gone through three full cycles and kept developing teams while turning a profit that can compete on occasions like this.

Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it?

And at the end of the game, the crowd just the camera just kept cutting to like grown Italian men weeping.

It was just sort of what it's what you wanted.

And like just for those fans and for that city, for Bergamo, like give us an idea of what this means.

Yeah, I think that's something that I definitely wanted to pick up because obviously, footballing terms, it's a club that's been around for 117 years and it's only the club's second major trophy, right?

We can talk about Gasparini with one trophy in his career.

The club has won the Coppa Italia in the 60s once and it hasn't won anything again since.

So it's enormous for the football club.

But I do think.

Atalanta and Bergamo have this very specific experience the last few years.

And of course, at this point, all of Europe has gone through COVID.

We've all had our lockdowns and our pandemic, but Bergamo was the place where it first hit in Italy.

It was this,

I think, uniquely horrendous, horrific experience where you had literally coffins piling up in the street and military vehicles having to come to take them to towns further away because they couldn't deal with the number of people who were dying in an administrative sense.

They couldn't deal with how many bodies they had to deal with.

And I think it marked that city in a really profound way.

And

that you would imagine the city getting to have this moment of joy together in that moment, which is in the end only four years ago, is something that no one would have thought of at the time, no one would even imagining at the time.

And for those players who've been there through it,

I think it's especially special.

And certainly for all the people who live there,

it's

one of those, again,

not the biggest city, 120,000 people, one of of those places where the football club is very much the whole city.

And the whole city, I think, would have been celebrating this

on Wednesday night.

Enjoy the wedding, Nikki.

Thanks for letting us interrupt your journey.

No problem at all.

Nikki Bandini there at, I'm guessing, Gatwick Airport, but I couldn't be totally sure.

Because he was in the ground as well to witness the end of Lever Cousin's remarkable run, and because we'd already asked him, assuming that Lever Cousin would win, here's a voice note from Archie Rin Tut.

Greetings from Dublin, Dublin, where for the first time this season, I saw Bayer Levakusen play badly over 90 minutes, and it just so happened to come in the Europa League final.

They were

off it, really, from the very start.

Didn't get into the kind of rhythm that

used to seeing them play with,

and

Atalanta

physically, I saw, destroyed them.

Florian Wiertz

was off colour, and I think that

even though Chabi Alonso protested otherwise, I think that he's a little bit off it physically.

Right now, still coming back from an injury which he sustained away at Roma,

but that still can't explain how everybody didn't really turn up.

And

there will be a few voices saying, Did Chabi Alonso overthink this?

And it's difficult to accuse him of that because

every lineup that he's picked, and he's rotated a lot in the last,

well, forever games, to be honest, ever since the African Cup of Nations, it's always gone well for him.

So he wasn't trying out a combination that he hadn't done before last night.

Anyway, full credit to Atalanta, Nadamola Luckman, who,

yes, I am going to inject a fuller memory here,

has come a long way since the worst Paninka of all time against West Ham.

And,

yeah, the night belongs to him.

Anything else on Leva Cousin?

They've still got the cup final on Saturday, but I think this dampens their spirits a little bit.

Anyway.

Cheers, Max.

Boy.

Thank you, Archie.

So Nikki and Archie have done a lot of the heavy lifting there.

Barry, Barry, but what did you make of it?

Well, I would have stayed in bed for an extra 10 minutes if I'd known that

Nikki and Archie had it all covered.

No one told me about this.

I could have got out last night, not bothered watching the final at all.

But I did because I'm diligent and I really enjoyed it because it was a fun final with none of the usual sort of elite in inverted commas suspects in it, but two really good

attacking attacking teams.

I think I presume Bayerlevusen would win because they're unbeaten this season.

They were the favourites.

And even when they went 2-0 down, I still thought, oh, yeah, these guys don't know when they're beaten.

They'll come back.

And then they went 3-0 down.

I was like, maybe not.

And Atalanta were fully deserving winners, as the scoreline suggests.

Bayer-Levikusen weren't quite at at it, and maybe that's because Atalanta didn't let them be at it.

And

yeah, a brilliant night for

Adam Ola Luckman, and presumably our Charlton supporting producer

Joel Grove will be taking quite a lot of credit for that.

He's a Charlton boy, isn't he?

Yeah,

Waterloo FCR, isn't he?

Born in Wandsworth.

Joel did put lots of references to Charlton Athletic in the script.

He does that quite a lot.

I normally take them all out.

And actually, Sonny, you sent me this brilliant footage from TNT where they'd found, they'd spoken to one of Adamola Luckman's old coaches, a guy called Felix.

And like, he'd sent Adamola this text message

before the game.

And it was just, I think he sent me.

It was beautiful to watch.

Yeah, I think he might be his adopted father as well, because he sent this message.

And it was, you think

someone who's, you know, in a parental position might tell you, good luck, son.

Don't want to pressure you too much.

But yeah, he was brought up and Jules Breach was like, go on, can find us his text and classic dad style, like scrolling for absolutely ages and his phone was continuously getting these messages.

And you finally got to and you thought, is it just going to be like, good luck, son, have a good one.

But no, he like went through like, you know, do one of those Waterloo performances.

What, underrates?

Yeah.

When, you know, everything just comes together for you and you're just playing as if you're on another, you know, on another level.

And yeah, it worked.

And it was really cool to see that.

And we saw pictures as well of him on the pitch with Luckman as well, give him a hug.

He was really emotional.

And yeah, we rarely get to see that side of things.

And we rarely get somebody with such candor about his journey.

And he did say, you know, Luckman, Adam Ole is a very quiet sort of person.

And in his career, other coaches, other managers haven't really quite understood him, but he's in a place now where he has done.

And look what he can do.

It was amazing.

It's one of those, I think every athlete wants one of those days where everything just comes together for you.

And for Luckman, that was it.

And it was just a joy.

You just knew when that for that third goal, you knew if he took it on, it was going to go right in the top corner.

It's just beautiful.

There are going to be something like 54 italian sides in europe next season now does that mean that serie are is strong or or is it just a bit more random than that well i definitely think there is some randomness uh to it um no doubt about that because i think in terms of where you sort of want to see your best teams that would be in the champions league and if you had um all four of them in the semi-finals of the champions league then you'd be going wow um serie is strong um i think they've done very well um as a collective in Europe in the last few seasons.

We've definitely seen that Inter did reach the Champions League final last season.

Fiorentina have reached back-to-back finals.

Atalanta, of course, have just won the Europa League.

I think that

the bit below maybe that very top,

I suppose, the next run, I would say that the Italian teams are

doing very well

quite clearly.

They do seem to take

competition seriously as well.

And I think that there maybe was a time when that wasn't the case

in terms of the Europa League with Italian teams, that they wouldn't always take that seriously.

And, you know, you've got something like Fiorentina in the Conference League that would feel like that's maybe their level or maybe they could go up one.

If a

inverted common sort of bigger club in Italy was in the conference league, I wonder if they'd be sort of all in to try to win that and sort of sacrifice league position and league points.

So

it's hard to sort of know fully where all leagues are at because I don't mean the Premier League suddenly is a terrible league because they've had one bad season in Europe.

But as you alluded to there, Max, if Atalanta finished fifth,

there will be six teams from Italy in the Champions League next season.

If Brushia Dortmund win the Champions League against Real Madrid next week, there will be six German teams in the Champions League next season.

So, in the 36

team league, that would potentially could have a third of them from two countries, which I don't think is a great way to start a new format.

I would say, Sonny, is it good or bad that Leverkusen don't finish this season unbeaten?

Like, I've loved the journey, but I wonder if there are some things we don't want anyone to ever attempt.

Yeah, it's funny because we've had

the Invincible Treble.

Anytime a team does well,

even I get fed it as a reporter.

Like, can you ask about the quadruple when you're at Liverpool in February and stuff?

So, yeah, I guess so.

I think the way Leverkusen lost kind of was quite humbling all round.

You know, they really struggled to get going.

That press,

they could have gone long, but they didn't.

I think if it had been close and Leverkusen were really in it, then you would have been like, oh, what amazing could have been.

But the fact they were so bad,

yeah, it kind of, a if anything, it's kind of a throwing back to the one fan out there.

It was like, we're going to lose at some point.

You know, we are never coozing.

You know, I've told you it's going to happen.

And at least now they've got the cup final to kind of bounce back from.

So overall,

they can have a double.

How about that?

Yeah, you're so right.

There would definitely be one fan just there going, this is the game.

This is the game, isn't it, Baz?

No, I just, I think it would have been...

really fun if Byron Louva Cousin's fans had just booed them onto the podium for the runners-up head as you booed them off the pitch.

You've disgraced us, you've let us down.

And just one little observation.

Adam Ola Luckman was interviewed after the game and he was asked, you know, is this the best night of your life?

And he sort of talked about it and went, it was one of the best nights of my life.

And I'm just trying to think, what is Adam Ola Luckman doing at night?

I also enjoyed this question from Jenkins saying, Will Manchester United sign John O'Shea back after seeing him holding a trophy

because he did walk out with the Europa League.

All right, that'll do for part one.

Part two, Jacob Steinberg will join us.

Chelsea's his beat and England as well.

And Pochatino's left, Chelsea and Garrett Southgates picked an interesting England squad.

We'll do that next.

Hi Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's bring in the Guardian's Chelsea correspondent and one of our England reporters as well, Jacob Steinberg.

Hey, Jacob.

Hey.

A reasonably busy day for you, I imagine.

On Tuesday, it was pretty busy, yeah.

I mean, the England squad sort of takes care of itself.

There were going to be 33 people in there.

Some people were in there, some people weren't in there.

But Pochatino going was obviously more manic, especially when it happens on a train home.

Ah, yeah.

I mean, the statement said it was mutual.

Do you think it was mutual?

I think it was mutual, yeah.

I think that

from Chelsea's side and particularly certain elements of the ownership, there was never really total buy-in with Maurizio Pochettino.

And that would be more so towards the Clear Lake side and Bedadak Bali, the feeling always being that he never really was entirely sold on on on Poch and

people have often sort of made a bit of a mistake of it's often called Bowley's Chelsea, and he's sort of seen as the big figure who calls all the shots at Chelsea.

And I guess that's because of just the nature of the

takeover and the fact that he was just that first person who was visible and that he was that quite sort of garrulous figure at the start of it all and obviously took on the sporting director role in that first summer.

But it's always

been the indication that Egg Bali's had a lot of the power and his voice has sort of carried the most weight and has been the most influential there.

And he's got, obviously, he runs this private equity firm alongside Joseph Lisiano, who's also one of the owners.

So the fact that Badab was never seemingly that into Pochettino always made it feel like an uneasy relationship.

And from that end of it, obviously that leaves the manager feeling that I'm not really sure if I want to continue here.

Even though he'd obviously ended the season well and the players liked him, I don't think that

for Pochatino, it's the greatest disappointment that he's had to leave this job.

I think

from the way that he was talking towards the end of the season, making it pretty clear that he wasn't happy with certain elements and that he really wouldn't be that disappointed if

he had to walk away.

So, yeah, very much mutual.

The sense I get, Jacob, is that fans are furious, though.

Is that the sense that you get?

Well, it's interesting because obviously he is a Tottenham hero.

Well, I mean, maybe not so much now that he went to Chelsea, but

he obviously had those five amazing years at Spurs, Champions League final, 86 points, and everything else.

And so they never really took too much to him, the Chelsea fans.

And

when you've seen managers like Thomas Tuchel and Jose Mourinho, I don't think you're necessarily going to be that wowed by a manager like Pochetino, who, while winning trophies at PSG, hadn't won anything in England.

So he had to do a lot to win them over.

And obviously, losing that final in the way that they did.

And,

you know, a week later, they're at Brentford away, 2-1 down, and they're turning on him and singing for Mourinho.

And there was the Wolves game at home where it got really ugly when they lost 4-2 in February.

But then I think, you know, there has been some acceptance from maybe more level-headed fans of the issues that he had to deal with throughout the season.

And towards the end of it, when it comes to winning five games in a row, a good draw against Aston Villa, actually, you can kind of see something coming together.

Yeah, I think the general reaction has been, okay, we weren't too sure about this guy, but do we really need the instability and upheaval and to be going after a sixth manager in the space of two years?

So I don't think there are any tears over him going.

It's not like a Tuchel situation where Tuchel was absolutely adored by the Chelsea fans and they weren't really angry when he went.

I think it's more the case that this guy, maybe he's not going to win us the title, which is what they've said in their programme notes at the Bournemouth game that they wanted to be doing.

But if you look at the manager market now, is it necessarily the best idea to get rid of him when it seems things are sort of moving in the right direction?

And I guess more to the point, Barry, does it get to the stage where

managers might think, do I...

What do I want to get involved with this?

Is it just where you get paid a lot for a year and then just get a payoff?

Like, like, I'm not, it's not going as far as they are unmanageable, but but, would it be a smart decision for, say, Kieran McKenna?

Kieran McKenna, I think, is a unique case in so far as

he hasn't managed a team of big-name players like that before.

He has coached one, but he hasn't managed one.

And

he's taken Ipswich up, you know, from League One to the Premier League in the course two seasons.

Really brilliant achievement.

But if I was Kieran McKenna, I think I'd be inclined to go elsewhere because every job going from governor of the bank of england to the next james bond to brighton to you know he can take his pick uh at the moment but if you're a more experienced manager i think you go into chelsea you might do okay in which case great and if you don't you can blame the owners and leave with your reputation largely undamaged with a nice big payoff so it's win-win um i i would imagine pochetino is quite happy to leave uh i'd say part of him probably wanted to be in Inverticomas fired.

I'd say he couldn't give a hoot, but I am very curious to see who they will get next.

Because there's no guarantee Kieran McKenna would be a success there.

What do you think, Mark?

I think if you

replace a manager,

make sure you get a better one to come in.

If you're doing it, you know, because you feel like you can make the team better.

And if you go back to the best part of a decade, I think there were some people that felt that Brendan Rogers was, say, harshly treated treated at Liverpool and you know because it was only what the season before that they'd been knocking on the door and

then you get to

sort of Pochettino and I'm thinking well like

reading Jacob's story this morning about you know McKenna or maybe Marasca at Leicester and you're thinking like they're not better than Pochettino.

Certainly not yet.

And last time I was on the pod, I was waxing lyrical about the job that Kira McKenna had done at Ipswich.

but the job at Ipswich is completely different to what will be expected of him at Chelsea.

But there's also that feeling potentially, I suppose, inside a manager like McKenna that just feels like you've got to go.

Like when the opportunity for Chelsea or Manchester United comes along, how can you turn that down?

I think the

The sensible option would be to maybe take that next step, which I think is Brighton.

And that's usually a path to Chelsea anyway.

If you go to Brighton, so so maybe Chelsea comes up in sort of 18 months' time.

But I would feel like Brighton would give you that opportunity to build, to maybe make mistakes and to learn from those mistakes.

And, you know, Graham Potter didn't last long at Chelsea.

Pochettino hasn't lasted long at Chelsea.

I mean, it wouldn't take much, would it?

I can see...

Imagine he doesn't start well.

If he takes a job and at Christmas, they haven't started well.

The Chelsea fans are going to be, you know, furious.

And if they were bringing in Tuchel to replace pochettino then i'd say yeah i i can understand that um you know maybe there's uh you know there's a bond with the fans already and that you you've got somebody that's um you know at least at the same level i mean you could argue who's who's better at tuchel than pochettino but it's a manager at that level i'm just not sure that you can say that about the the shortlist that that chelsea have got at the moment Pochitino's back at Stanford Bridge in a fortnight to manage in soccer aid, so he could take a couple of these Chelsea players with him wherever he goes.

He could also take Ollie Moores and Chunks and, you know, whoever else is in the Soccer Aid squad this year.

And who knows where Poch will go.

A few jobs available.

Also, look with the England job if Southgate departs, which takes us to the England squad.

33 players.

Sanny, what did you make of it?

Is the hand break off?

No Jordan Henderson, no Marcus Rashford?

It's quite nice seeing Southgate not pick all the players who help him put the cones out.

You know, Jordan Henderson is definitely that.

Yeah, it's the hand break off.

off.

I think finally we've got a manager who's kind of picked the players on form, you know, all the clamour that we want.

He's kind of done, but I think partly that's, you know, he's got this extra large 33-man squad that he can lose seven players.

So at least for now, he's appeased as on social media.

But yeah, you know, someone like Adam Wharton, I was really pleased to see come in because his form's been excellent.

Those of us who've seen him in the championship knew he was good at Blackburn Rovers, but the level that he's got to at Crystal Palace and we've seen how they finished the season season has been brilliant.

And I think there's a couple like him in this provisional squad that Southgate can have a closer look at and go, oh yeah, this guy's actually really good.

And I think some of the more established ones might be a bit worried.

You know, just quickly looking at, you know, the more established players and where they're up to.

Like John Stones has played a handful of games a season relatively.

And he's in this squad.

Luke Shaw's one that I know Southgate's kind of said he's he's looking at and it might be too late for him.

So it's a real mix of kind of young, exciting players that are doing and kind of established ones that haven't really been playing.

And I do wonder.

I hope we have a core that's a little more resilient than when we had Ledley King in that World Cup squad.

You know, hopefully, we've got a decent

structure around these good players because basically you just need to build a side around Jude Bellingham, don't you?

Are you nervous, Barry?

Now you've seen the names.

Yeah, I mean,

we'll wait and see when the call happens, but

the

left back and and cover for Declan Rice will be mentioned as areas of concern.

I don't really have an opinion on the left back issue.

Playing Shaw would be dangerous.

England have previously in the field of playing fielding players who aren't fit and it hasn't worked for them.

But

why

Lewis Cook Bournemouth never seems to be in the conversation for England.

He has a cap that was back in 2018.

So he has been in Southgate.

I think it was Southgate was manager then, wasn't it?

He has been in Southgate's radar previously.

I would have thought he should be in this England squad, but he doesn't seem to be ever getting mentioned.

Would anyone agree or disagree, emphatically?

Mark, thoughts?

I mean, I guess Wharton is that...

Sentiment, it's that...

Because when Maynu and Rice played, Rice actually sat deeper, didn't he?

And Maynu was more of an eight.

And you wonder if Wharton played a six Rice could gallop around like he does for Arsenal.

He could do.

I mean, it's still a big jump, isn't it?

I'm not saying he's not ready for it, but

we don't know if he's kind of up to that standard.

He's played well for Crystal Palace, and it doesn't sound all Roy Keen here, but he's played well for Crystal Palace for a few weeks.

It doesn't necessarily mean that you're suddenly kind of at that level where you should be playing regularly for England.

I mean, as Jacob's already said, I mean, Conor Gallagher's had a fine season for Chelsea Chelsea

in a position where he could play sort of alongside Rice.

I think the balance of

the team is slightly concerning me at the moment.

And Barry said he wasn't that fussed about the left back position.

I think it is an area of concern because if Luke Shaw isn't able to play and it ends up being either a right back in that position or they move a centre back into that area, I think that throws open a different debate as to then who plays on the left-hand side of the team because you need somebody to hold the width on that left-hand side.

And potentially, that could maybe be like Anthony Gordon playing on the wing.

But then, what happens with Foden and Bellingham?

And

my sort of vision for it was that Foden would probably play on the left-hand side, come in, and Luke Shaw would go around the outside.

If you're not able to play that way,

is Southgate going to be bold enough to play Rice, Foden and Bellingham as a midfield free?

And if he's not and Foden plays out on the left with a right back at left back, a right footed player at left back, I'm not sure if

that balance of the team is going to be perfect.

But it does bring me back to when Fabio Capello was manager.

I spoke to somebody who knew Capello and he was saying he like the English media just like why are they that bothered about who like the 23rd player is in the squad?

He couldn't understand why there was this big debate over who the third choice goalkeeper was, um, for instance.

And it does sort of um make me chuckle that we do kind of go, I wonder who that person is that's not going to play anyway, that is going to sneak on the plane in sort of 25th or 26th spot.

Yeah, why are you that bothered, Jacob?

That's you, isn't it?

I'm not bothered.

No, no, no.

I actually, I was saying this to

Dave Peitner, our colleague on Tuesday,

the toss-up between Eric Dyer and Lewis Dunk, or Esri Concern or Levi Colwell doesn't really make a big difference as to whether they're going to win the tournament.

If they're going past the three first-choice centre-backs, then you're going to be worried, really, whatever the formulation is, basically.

What have you made of it?

I mean, because it's quite, quite these, you know, quite sure I think it's interesting.

Curtis Jones is interesting, but maybe you're all right.

Maybe, maybe

none of that makes a difference and they won't have any impact on the people we see on the pitch.

I mean, he was close to the March squad against Brazil and Belgium, but he got injured.

So I think that for how he was playing for Liverpool at the time, he looked like a really good potential pick for that third midfield spot.

And then obviously, Copy Mainu turns up and wows everybody in that Belgium game.

The big thing in that camp was it was another camp where he wasn't really able to try Trent as the third midfielder.

And so those two warm-up games coming up will be the time when he's going to have to look at it properly.

Can I get him there?

Because that's pretty much, he said it on Tuesday.

This is where I see him playing.

This is where I like him playing.

Doesn't want him playing as a right back.

Doesn't, I don't think, for the way that they play, trust that he can do the job defensively.

But for the passing ability with him, you know, you are desperate to get him onto the pitch and in a place where he can affect and hurt teams.

I'm not personally not sure whether he necessarily has the quite nailed down the sort of fluency of the rhythm of playing in midfield, but the passing ability is obviously incredible.

And I think if he plays well in those two games, I can see a scenario in which he actually does start at the start of the Euros.

And then it's going to be whether or not it really works in one of those big games.

You remember the last World Cup where a lot of excitement around Rice Bellingham and I don't know if you remember this person, Mason Mount.

They started the first two games, and then the first game was brilliant, second game, it didn't work.

And we, you know, he brings in Jordan Henderson to sort of give a bit more balance.

So, will it be one of those kind of scenarios?

Maybe Gallagher comes in.

You know, with Mainu,

he obviously everybody went crazy about him during the Belgium game, but again, interesting that Southgate said after that one that they were a little bit more open with him playing because he is 19 and inexperienced, and it leaves a lot of pressure on Rice in front of a suspect defence.

And I personally look at that defence and the left back issue that Barry doesn't care about.

And I think, will, when they come up against a top team, is that just going to hurt them?

And the whole issue of balance, I mean, there's absolutely nobody to go on the outside from left back because if you think back through previous tournaments, Luke Shaw has been so important.

The goal against the Raheem Sterling goal against Germany, that's Luke Shaw putting in that low ball

on the overlap with the combination with Grealish.

If it's Trippier, who got injured yesterday in that friendly, you just see every single time he's going to be chopping back onto his right foot, and is it going to slow everything down?

So from a defensive and an attacking perspective, it's a little bit worrying.

Can I just clarify?

Well, it is true that I don't care about the England left-pack situation, but I think I said I didn't have an opinion on it.

Okay.

Sorry, Barrett.

Slightly different.

But balls can be true.

We'll get that in corrections and clarifications.

Sally, a final thought.

Well they say football's cyclical, isn't it?

And we are six years on from Ashley Young playing every game at the World Cup at left back.

And yet we're in this position again.

So if Barry is jaded by this situation, then he's got every reason to because this exact debate has happened before on this podcast.

Yeah.

I mean, although I preferred the troublesome left-sided midfield role where either John Solarco or Steve Guppy or maybe Jason Wilcox could fill the void.

Anyway, Jacob, thanks for coming on, Pal.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Jacob Steinberg there.

And I just got time, Barry, to talk about Scotland, who, I mean, mainly for their amazing announcement video featuring Pat Nevin, DJing, Frankie Boyle, and Antoni Niemi.

It's absolutely brilliant.

Really good.

It was a house party.

Someone knocks on the door.

Anti Naemi answers it.

But there's sort of like a flashback to the previous evenings.

Shenanigans, lots of big, well-known faces.

I didn't realize Pat Nevin was DJing.

And I'm a big Pat Nevin fan.

Yeah, great guy.

Then, yeah, they all sort of quietened down to watch the squad being announced on Teletext, Ask Your Dads, younger listeners.

And or was it CFACs, whichever.

And there's a great, great gag at the very end, which I'm not going to spoil for anyone, but it features Anti Naimi, and you can probably guess what it is.

Yeah, I mean, even mentioning that Anton Naami is in it is probably giving away the gag for people who know the gag.

And if people don't know the gag, we don't have time to explain it, but it is the greatest phone call in the history of phonins.

Are we interested in the squad particularly?

Well, of course we are.

Steve Clark, he's named a 28-man squad, so smaller than Garrett Southgate, considerably smaller.

He'll have to lose two.

He's four goalkeepers, so Liam Kelly, Motherwell is probably going to miss out.

Scotland, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, and Lewis Ferguson, they're all out injured.

They will not be there.

Surprise-ish inclusions.

Ben Doak from Liverpool was picked.

Bristol City right back, Ross McCrory.

And I would say Rangers midfielder Ryan Jack is maybe a little bit lucky to be in the squad because he hasn't played for over three months.

He's been out injured.

People are saying Aberdeen's Connor Barron could have got picked instead.

Steve Clark has said he's picked Ryan Jack for his experience.

Surprise again, surprise-ish omissions.

Scotland have in much the same way England have issues at left back.

Scotland have issues on their right side.

Max Johnson, who's a right back, he won the title in Austria with Sturm Gratz.

He hasn't been picked.

Ryan Gold, the former

mini Scottish Messi, he's now plying his trade with the Vancouver Whitecaps in MLS.

He's missed out, but that I don't think anyone is really expecting him to be picked.

And Celtics James Forrest is in

three years after his last cap.

So there's no real surprises there, but

it's a pretty good squad on the face of it, I would say.

Yeah.

And they kick off against Germany, opening down the Euros.

Absolutely brilliant.

That's going to be so good, isn't it?

And that's where our Euros coverage will begin.

The daily pods, the daily grind through the entire tournament.

Join us for all of those.

We will have preview pods

as well, though.

Oh, yes, of course.

Yeah.

Aren't we doing them all in one morning?

Yeah, well, the idea was we do them all in one morning.

So then we get three days off before the Euros begin.

Oh, no, I'm there for that.

Okay, good.

It's like filming episodes of

pointless or house of games.

Countdown.

Exactly.

10 in one day.

You can tell how knackered we will be by groups.

We'll have to change our clothes, patrons.

Recordings to make it look.

You're absolutely right.

Like, it's not a rush job.

All right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin with Vincent Company going to Bayn Munich.

Hi, Pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Michael says, Given Bayer Munich are looking at relegated Premier League managers, did Sandwichgate cost Chris Wilder his opportunity for the job?

James says, all things considered, has Sean Dyce been unfairly overlooked for the buyer and job rich?

It's the managerial equivalent of Ethan Pinnock winning goal of the season.

Yeah, Bayern Munich close to signing Vincent Company from Burnley in contact with the club over compensation.

Mark, I was not expecting this.

Nor was I.

Nor was Vincent Company.

I've probably not been by Munich was expecting it.

I did see one tweet that said, I wonder what sort of reaction company is going to get next time he faces us from a Burnley fan, which I thought was quite nice, given that Burnley are never, ever going to play Bayer Munich, presumably.

But I think from...

From Company's point of view, it's obviously a great opportunity.

It will be, I think, a tick in the box for those that said that actually he was putting himself ahead of Burnley when he was sticking to his principles and wanted Burnley to play in a very specific way that was maybe not kind of helping them get Premier League results.

And that, you know, he had his eye maybe on bigger things right from the start.

And I think it is very much about the way you present yourself and the way that you want your teams to play.

You reference Sean Dais there, for instance, not going to get the Bayer Munich job.

There are probably a few reasons why, but one of them would be style of play is not going to sort of translate across, is it?

Um, whereas I think Vincent Company has been very clear about the way he wants these teams to play.

I mean, Bayon just ran out of managers.

You remember when Tottenham ended up with kind of Nunu and Nunu?

New no.

New News unavailable.

I mean, exactly.

So, um, yeah, it just became kind of last man standing job.

I mean, Bayon went for a lot of different coaches for many reasons.

They were turned down by them.

Even looked like at one stage there would be this massive U-turn with Thomas Tuchel, and that didn't come off as well.

I mean, they had to have somebody.

Vincent Company, you know, this time last year, I think had a reputation, maybe not for Bayern Munich, but he was being spoken about, wasn't he, as this kind of real promising, up-and-coming manager.

And I don't think we should hold it against sort of gaffers if they are relegated once.

There have been some big names that have been relegated.

I don't think it's a great appointment for Biomunic, but also

wouldn't be amazed if he actually turns out to be quite a good coach.

Producer Joel writing that asking, isn't Nunu the Hoover from Teletubbies?

I mean, I guess I should know, but I just don't focus that much when it's on.

I really try and I really sort of bleakly just like hiding behind my son, doom scrolling when Teletubbies is on.

Do you go with that, Barry?

That

company perhaps slightly selfish in what he did this season with Burnley, in a sort of, in a, in a sense?

I think Burnley could easily have avoided relegation if he had changed his style of play.

But

while I admire anyone who has the courage of their convictions and sticks to their guns, there does come a point where you are living out the Einsteinian definition of insanity.

If you do the same thing over and over and over again, expecting different results,

you're bonkers.

At Bayern Munich, he will have better players.

I'd be interested to know what Harry Kane makes of this appointment.

I wouldn't

say he might not be thrilled about it.

And everyone's having a great laugh at the fact that Craig Craig Bellamy will be going there, or will probably be going there as company's number two.

And I think

I can see why you know people are having a good titter at that, but it sort of smacks a snobbery in my opinion.

Bellamy was a terrific player.

He

did a good job, presumably, with company when it got promoted out of the championship.

I presume he has done all his badges, and why shouldn't he get an opportunity like that?

And maybe having an abrasive character like that in the Byron dressing room would

be to kick up the hours they need, but we shall see when it happens.

But to answer your question,

I wouldn't necessarily agree it was selfish of company, but I wouldn't blame any manager for putting their own interests ahead of

the struggling team they are at.

You don't want to, you know, you're not on the Titanic, you don't

you're welcome to jump ship if you want.

Well, I was with Vince and Company on Sunday reporting reporting on Nottingham Forest trip to Turf Moor and if I'd have asked in my post-match interview Vincent you know relegation you know disappointing I what do you think about buying Munich I would have got laughed out the building it would have been absurd I really wouldn't have been able to show my face again so it is quite strange but what I would say and every time I've spoken to him he has He's been talking about developing players and about learning and how all these players are going to take this experience and use it for next season.

And that's partly why he's not wanting to compromise his play because he's like, oh, you know, I've got this 21-year-old here and 24-year-old here, and they'll be better next season and stuff.

And, you know, he was quite bullish afterwards saying, oh, you know, we're going to be one of the best teams in the championship.

I mean, yeah, if they'd have gone a bit more long ball and not started playing it from the back all the time, they probably would have...

done better.

And yeah, don't forget, they've invested £100 million in that side, including an £80 million goalkeeper who he dropped in James Trafford.

So yeah, I actually think he'd probably do quite well at Bayern Munich, just because of the caliber of the the players and the way he coaches and the reputation he has as a player will probably keep him a pretty good standing in amongst all the FC Hollywood Prima Donners and all the rest of it.

But yeah, it is a strange one.

And it does kind of leave Burnley high and dry, really, because the squad they've assembled is very much a company team to play a certain way.

that will probably do quite well in the championship now if they keep all the players but then who are you going to bring in to kind of keep that going you know and also keep a bit of steel as well so So, yeah, but very strange, really strange.

I suppose, in one way, it kind of shows where the Premier League is at versus other levels, maybe that a manager can get him relegated from the English top flight and end up at one of the best teams in the world.

Company side that needs a company man.

Maybe Gareth Southgate could pop to Burnley after winning the Euros, of course.

So, Manchester City played Manchester United, Barry, in the FA Cup final.

We are supporting Manchester United, I presume, as underdogs,

plucky underdogs in this?

Or are you not, Barry?

How do you feel about it?

Feel totally indifferent about it.

I'll watch it.

Could not care less who wins.

Are you saying the magic of the cup has gone?

Well, it's certainly gone for me at this stage of this particular competition.

I will be very surprised if Manchester United don't get thumped, but it is a cup final.

We have seen Manchester City lose cup finals against vastly inferior opposition in the past, Hello Wigan Athletic.

And who knows?

But I fully expect Manchester United to lose by three or four goals.

I think, and I could be totally wrong here,

I suspect there are Manchester United

players who are dreading this cup final and would rather not play in it, rather not be in it.

What do you reckon, Matt?

That's an interesting point, isn't it?

It is.

I mean,

Manchester United have fallen a long way, but they still haven't fallen far enough for either for me or barry to want them to win i mean there's just something in that kind of 90s 2000s united that just um can never sort of um make you feel like that i i actually i mean it was not that dissimilar to to last season i know united are not in exactly the same place but most people predicted a comfortable city win um last season i think the city team 12 months ago was probably better than the one that's lining up at Wembley as well.

The way that they were playing at that point,

and then they scored after about 10 seconds, and you felt like that would be sort of you know, absolute fresh in, and it wasn't.

And United caused City some problems, and towards the end, obviously, Veghorst nearly equalized in sort of injury time.

So

I always feel like cup finals sort of rarely turn into kind of that absolute blowout that

kind of is predicted when one team's clearly way better.

But I still think that City should win the game comfortably.

Manchester United, I think, you know, Eric Ten Hag

almost wants his team to play like Atalanta.

I think in his head, when he's talking about how well they're playing, he wants Manchester United to be able to press like that.

They do go man for man,

sort of over the pitch, or they try to go man for man, but it doesn't work and they end up with these massive holes because maybe two players commit to it and there are sort of six or seven on the back fort and who don't go all in um in the same way that Gasperini got Atalanta to do that and he's changed hasn't he in the last couple of weeks he's tried to play that sort of box midfield really with no striker necessarily and just can really congest the mid the middle area and I think there are some managers that think that's the best way to try to nullify City

but you just look at the sort of matchups in sort of United defensively against City in the final third and feel like City will eventually sort of find the one or maybe two goals that they need to win the game.

Ash says, on a scale of one to ten, how smug is Barry with how Ineos seemed to be out to make the Glazers look competent with Dan Ashworth not knowing what CC means in a company email.

Yeah, this is the news that Dan Ashworth, Newcastle United Sporting Director, inadvertently revealed confidential negotiations with incoming Manchester United chief executive Omar Barada in an email blunder where he sort of copied in.

I don't know if he CC'd in all staff at Newcastle United saying, I can't wait to join, but it was something along those lines, copied in his Newcastle United email address and somebody at the club saw it, which potentially gets him and Barada to hot water with the sort of rules about you're not meant to talk about any of these things.

Anyway, he'll presumably end up at United eventually.

The championship final as well this weekend on Sunday, Leeds versus Southampton.

Sunny, you're off to this one.

You've already done it.

You sent me your sort of commentator notes, Clive Tilsey style,

your John Motson notes for this.

How do you see it going?

The problem I have with this is that I'm very much biased as a Northern reporter that I'd like Leeds to go up so I get more work and Southampton going up doesn't help me whatsoever given I'm based in Manchester.

But having said that, I think it will be a really interesting contest because Leeds...

You know, I've done so well this season, but then their end of the season was really bad.

And they kind of stumbled into the playoffs, which we knew they were going to be in anyway.

And it took a 4-0 win against Norwich to get get through after an awful goalless draw in the first leg um and that was at Ellen Road and it you kind of reminded the players yeah you are actually good after all um and Southampton similarly have been the the best of the rest out away from those three in Ipswich and Leicester

and Russell Martin's got a he hasn't compromised his playing style I think we've talked about Vincent company and what he did in the Premier League I imagine Southampton would do very similar as well.

I do think, you know, I was going through those notes and I was looking at the players at Leeds have and the number of games they played.

And I'm just scrolling down now.

And the amount of them who played, you know, 48, 49, Ethan Ampedu's played 53 games this season at 23 years old.

Joel Peru, 48.

Georgina Rutter, 50.

You know, looking at the Southampton side, there's not...

as many who've played that many.

I mean, there's a core as well.

Adam Armstrong's got 51, but I do wonder,

you know, you play that many games, you kind of expect a fall off, and Leeds have kind of had that.

And perhaps now they've had the break, they'll be able to pick themselves up.

But they've kind of used so many, they've gone through so much, these both these sides.

I mean, the short version is I think Leeds will win.

That's the short version.

But yeah, there's a lot riding on this for both teams.

I think the one other thing to say is that,

you know,

whereas I think perhaps previously Leeds fans would have been quite frustrated with the team if they're not doing well, this season they've been really, really positive.

And I think that extra push of all those fans there is probably going to get these ones up for it, especially the young ones who aren't used to this sort of pressure.

They've kind of had that at Ellen Road enough this season to kind of deal with it.

And I think they'll be just about enough to get past Southampton, who also, by the way, as a little bonus, are playing Alex McCarthy probably, 34 years old.

He's only played five games this season because Bazzuni's out for the season.

So

there's another little, there's a potential clanger in there from somebody.

Yeah, although I quite like a grey-headed, well, he's not totally grey, is he, but I quite like anyone else with grey hair, you know,

given that Barry pointedly refuses to get any grey hair, which I still don't quite understand how that's happened.

And, of course, big Southampton fan Rishi Sunak, who we have yet to mention on today's pod, Barry, might be there.

Do you think he'll be

an umbrella?

It was funny that he didn't have an umbrella when he was calling the general election yesterday we were just discussing before the pod

you know when he's at his lecture like a drowned rat with the rain pouring down and labor's anthem from the what 2000s 97 yeah blaring in the background he should have just gone i'm a billionaire i don't need this

fuck the lottie

taken off his suit and just gone and started raving at them

and as I would have more respect for him if he did that than I currently do but you know it's a very very low bar uh I presume he will be there just to show he's a man of the people I mean I think he he possibly is a bona fide Southampton fan so um

but yeah I

who cares whether he's there or not well funny enough you should say that by the way that that's what Russell Martin said previously when asked about Rishi Sunak being at a game.

And he was like, you know, would you let

Rishi Sunak into

the dressing room?

He's like, no, wouldn't couldn't care less.

And, you know, you can really tell where Russell Martin's politics are on this.

So that's, if you're that way inclined politically, then that's a bonus for Southampton fans.

I mean, this is the Guardian.

I don't know.

Maybe there are.

Maybe that's full of tools.

Sport with politics.

Who knows?

Keep politics, so to sport.

You're absolutely right.

My apologies.

Yeah, exactly.

Although, if you're right, if he's there and he rips his shirt off, he's got a big Jeff Kenner tattoo on his chest and he's singing D-Reem in the front with his shirt off, just there.

Go and come on.

Come on, Saints.

Hugging Mark Dennis and Egelostenstadt, then fair enough.

Finally, an email from Mark who says, hi, Max Barry and the Football Weekly team, getting in touch from Noosa Heads, Australia.

I have noticed all has gone quiet on the Australia live show tour.

I can only assume due to the cost of living crisis and Guardian budget cuts, etc.

As I share the same name as one of your esteemed pod members, it got me thinking of assembling a live show of namesakes and doppelgangers.

Could be the solution for the down-under tour.

Jonathan Wilson should be an easy one.

Barney, Ronnie, and Barry possibly a little harder.

I could even prepare method acting style and do a month or longer of the Mark Langdon diet.

What could go wrong?

Anyway, just a thought.

But if you do all make it here one day, I'll be sure to buy a ticket as I'm a huge fan.

I never miss a pod.

Keep up the great work.

Thanks for all your contributions on the beautiful game.

All the best, Mark Langdon.

Would you be happy for Mark Langdon of Noosa Heads to play the role of Mark Langdon on the Guardian Football Weekly down under tour, or do you demand to come?

Because we do still have plans.

I have actually been in Noosa Heads before

in the past.

I'd love, happily go back.

But I will only do a live show in Australia if I fly business class.

I'm not going cattle class.

Oh, really?

What about premium economy?

No.

Okay.

It's got to be business, has it?

I deserve it.

I've been doing this shite for 20 years.

I deserve business class.

Well, there's your answer.

You're not coming, Mark.

Yeah, I'm just sort of wondering if the Australian Mark Langdon sort of realises what I have to put up with on the live tour.

I've dressed up as Postman Pat.

I think I was a tree the last time we did one in Bristol.

So, I mean, you know, if he's up for being Postman Pat, he's more than a moment.

Well, to be fair, if he's in Australia, Mark Landing, he's probably got a lot more experience of hosting meat raffles than you do.

I forgot about the meat raffles as well.

Yeah, see if he could hoist a chicken into the top row of a theatre.

Bring him on.

People listen to this going, what do they do on these?

I thought they talked about football.

There was always always one person at the end of a live show going wasn't really what i wanted to happen most people seem happy anyway listen i i'm not going to go as far as say the wheels are in motion but we do have hopes and dreams this is going to come down to image rights by the way this is you know mark do you own your own image rights or have the guardian taken those from you

oh no i um i i'm very cheap on that front um yeah i wouldn't worry about that anyway that'll do for today thanks baz thank you thank you mark thank you max cheers sanny nice one.

Football Weekly is producer Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Josh Kelly.

This is The Guardian.