An episode from Women’s Football Weekly – Fifpro exclusive interview

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Speaker 1 We've got an exclusive interview with two FIF Pro representatives, Sarah Gregorius and Alex Colvin, and Netherlands international Meryl van Dongen.

Speaker 1 They explored the current scheduling issues affecting the women's game, the impact of overloading, underloading, disparities across the league, and the impact that has on players.

Speaker 1 Plus, they discussed all the weekend's action as the conclusions of the WSL and the UEFA Women's Champions League come towards a close, including that amazing win for Chelsea over Barcelona.

Speaker 1 Here it is. Enjoy it.
We'll be back tomorrow.

Speaker 7 Hello, I'm Faker Others and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

Speaker 7 We have a slightly different and slightly longer episode for you today, as well as all our usual chat on the past week's action.

Speaker 7 We'll be focusing on player welfare with increasing concerns over the women's football calendar.

Speaker 7 We'll bring you an exclusive interview with representatives from the global players union FIFPRO, who, alongside Netherlands defender Meryl van Dongen, will give us their views on how the number of games elite athletes are playing is impacting them on and off the pitch.

Speaker 7 We'll also discuss an inspired Champions League win for Chelsea, Manchester City retaking the lead in the WSL, Arsenal securing European football, Palace on the brink of lifting the championship, and Lewis being relegated.

Speaker 7 All that, plus, we'll take your questions, and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

Speaker 7 Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google, an official mobile phone of Arsenal Football Club, Liverpool Football Club, and the England teams.

Speaker 7 Google Pixel's working with the FA, Arsenal FC, and Liverpool FC to close the visibility gap between men's and women's football with the formation of Pixel FC, a collective of next-generation creators and presenters dedicated to covering the women's game.

Speaker 7 They will have exclusive access to players, additional resources, and content creation opportunities to give women's football the visibility it deserves. Search Google Store to find out more.

Speaker 7 Well, good afternoon, Susie Rack. A much later recording for us for a lovely change.
The SJA's Women's Sports Journalist of the Year, Susie Rack, alongside me as always. Have you had a good week?

Speaker 7 Looking forward to something a bit different?

Speaker 8 You cannot do that every week.

Speaker 8 You cannot do the SJA Women's Sports Journalist of the Year every week for a year. I will like

Speaker 8 I will lose my mind. I'm good.
I'm good. I'm buzzing back from Barcelona, so you know, it could be worse.

Speaker 7 I know. Well, that looked wonderful.

Speaker 7 And by the way, I am going to do that it's just every week i'm gonna ramp it up a little bit more one week we'll have a little bit of fanfare just like a clap you know behind the behind the scenes producer silas will do that another week we'll have trumpets you know all sorts don't you worry about the drums get james on the drums absolutely susie's son is is an absolute whiz with his drum kit so yep we will have all of that don't you worry 52 52 of them or however many we've got left until next year uh when you're reigning champion i think uh Listen, we have a really important pod to bring you today because scheduling across the women's game has become a significant issue in recent years, with managers, including England's Serena Viegman, raising the issue of potential burnout for players.

Speaker 7 On the one hand, the physical and mental demands on athletes playing at a high level domestically and internationally are reaching breaking point, with very little time for rest between games.

Speaker 7 And then, in stark contrast to that, the majority of players globally are actually playing too little football with stop start schedules that have to fit in with the international calendar rather than suiting their domestic game.

Speaker 7 And then that's made worse by smaller leagues that are still in their relative infancy and contain less teams, perhaps compared to the men's game, for example.

Speaker 7 So the current international calendar expires in 2026 and discussions on what the next one will look like are still ongoing.

Speaker 7 We're not going to delve into the details into the details of what that might look like today, but what we are going to explore is how the current scheduling impacts players at all levels and what exactly needs to be done to try and help them.

Speaker 7 So with all that in mind, we are very excited to be bringing you an exclusive interview with two representatives of the Global Players Union FIFPRO.

Speaker 7 Sarah Gregorius is Director of Global Policy and Strategic Relations for Women's Football, while Alex Colvin is head of strategy and research for women's football.

Speaker 7 We're also joined by Netherlands International Meryl van Dongen, who currently plays in Mexico with Monterey.

Speaker 7 Right, let's start with you, Sarah. Hello, everybody, by the way.
How are we all okay?

Speaker 10 Great, thanks.

Speaker 11 Doing fabulous.

Speaker 7 Excellent. Thanks for being with us.
Sarah, listen, there's a lot of talk about scheduling pressures on players and the impact it has on them, particularly at the elite level of the game.

Speaker 7 Can you give us a little bit of a brief overview of the issues that there are and how exactly FIFPRO are trying to help?

Speaker 11 Well, I think you nailed it in your introduction.

Speaker 11 What you have in women's football is quite a lot of fragmentation and disparity in terms of professionalisation, which I'm sure is something most of your listeners as well as you guys will know about very well.

Speaker 11 And that obviously has an impact on the number of games that a particular professional or international might play, depending on where they're from and where they play their football around the world.

Speaker 11 So it is very difficult to come to this discussion with like one uniform solution or match calendar that fits everybody.

Speaker 11 I think you need to take in multiple perspectives into consideration and multiple playing groups into consideration, which makes our job at FIF Pro pretty interesting because we are there to be the voice and representative of all those players, of all professional players.

Speaker 11 But it also makes us such an interesting discussion and a discussion that deserves a bit of airtime on a podcast like the one that we're on today.

Speaker 11 So, I mean, in summary, I have been at FIF Pro for almost five years, and I've never seen players and the media take such an interest in what is normally just a governance discussion like they have recently in the women's game around the international match calendar.

Speaker 11 So I think it shows you actually how much this touches the careers and lives of players and how important it is and how many things that are happening in women's football can be traced back to the international match calendar and the scheduling that happens as a result of it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? And thank you again, you know, for choosing our pod to come on and discuss it. It's really important.
And thanks as well to Meryl for coming on the pod.

Speaker 7 You've got a football-related injury injury currently.

Speaker 7 Tell everybody what you're sporting on your right hand currently.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I broke my right hand, which is not a related injury. I wasn't tired or mentally tired when it happened.

Speaker 10 But yeah, I broke my hand.

Speaker 10 I got to take some rest for a little while, but it won't be. It's not a season-ending injury.

Speaker 7 So I'm positive. That is good to hear.
Listen, from a player perspective,

Speaker 7 how does the scheduling issues affect you? I'm very glad glad that you let everybody know that it had nothing to do with the schedule, that you broke your hand.

Speaker 7 But what are the other issues that affect you?

Speaker 10 Well, I think above all, it's the lack of rest, of mental rest, I would say, more than anything.

Speaker 10 So you have to imagine, especially on the elite level, when you play in all competitions, so I'm saying you play in the national team, you play in some cup games, some Champions League games, some competition games, and all of the competitions together.

Speaker 10 If you're the top, top player and the coach really wants you to play all of those games, you can easily get up to more than 60 games a year.

Speaker 10 There are so many examples I can give you what that implies for a life as a football player. For example, arriving really late from an away game in the middle of the night.

Speaker 10 at 3 a.m but having to train the next morning doing regen because in two days there's another important game sleeping only six seven hours maybe not hitting those eight hours because your coach really thinks it's more important to have a regeneration training than than to have a good night of sleep or imagine you are a south american player playing in Europe and having your schedule with Champions League at Chelsea, for example, but then having to fly back to Colombia with the hour changes, having only two or three days to recover from your jet lag and have to play an important game because the coach doesn't want to rest you.

Speaker 10 There's definitely some things that are absolutely inevitable. But with the calendar only growing, I think that definitely to have a 15-year career as a women's football player, it is too much.

Speaker 8 Meryl, I just want to add to that. Do you think there should be more fixed rest periods for players? And is there enough consideration from a player's perspective when calendars are set, do you think?

Speaker 10 I truly believe in a solution like that, fixed rest. And that should be the responsibility of the club.
Because in the end, the club has so many games.

Speaker 10 I think there should be either a maximum amount of games you can play a year. So the coach has to schedule your free games.

Speaker 10 So if you're the star player, then don't play the game against the last place.

Speaker 10 Give your player five days off.

Speaker 10 You know, so like before the season starts, the coach has to already make a schedule and say, if I want this player and has a limit of 50 games, which games am I gonna give her rest, for example,

Speaker 10 so that a player cannot exceed 50 games.

Speaker 10 And to do that, you have to schedule before the season starts, because imagine it reaches 50 games when the Champions League final still has to be played.

Speaker 10 So, that gives the coach and the club responsibility of thinking about the schedule for one player each. Or

Speaker 10 give a player two weeks of holiday every six months.

Speaker 10 I think that those are the solutions after talking to so many people and talking in our national team, the Netherlands,

Speaker 10 it's a very big subject, a very, very big one. We're on the phone with each other about it all the time.

Speaker 10 And these are the solutions that we came up with as players and that we also are actually communicating now with FIFPRO and to see if we can maybe uh drop those ideas at FIFA.

Speaker 7 This is what's really important actually.

Speaker 7 And Alex let me come to you on this because, you know it's not just a problem in the women's calendar it's a problem in the men's calendar and obviously that gets a lot more headlines than the women's calendar does but

Speaker 7 what's different in terms of the women's game and why I mean it's important whether you're a female or a male athlete in terms of welfare but but what specifically is is is the is the difference with women's football It's a really important question and I think we're sometimes caught in women's football of just replicating what exists in the men's game.

Speaker 9 So there's like a blueprint that's devoid of ideas in the men's game. And then they're like, we actually can't come up with any innovative ideas for the women's game.
So we'll just replicate it. And

Speaker 9 often, what happens then, because of the embryonic state that women's football is in, so like the professionalisation, like what Sarah said before, is relatively new in the kind of more well-developed leagues, England,

Speaker 9 the US. Professionalisation is in a newest stage.
And therefore the conditions in which players play are actually not enough fit for high-performance athletes and for these games every couple of days.

Speaker 9 So, if you're a man, for example, and my idea is always Liverpool because I'm a Liverpool fan.

Speaker 9 So, someone like Mo Sala, for example, is one of the highest frequency players, the high-usage players in the men's game.

Speaker 9 But then, if you think about the conditions in which Salah rests, recoveries, and then prepares for the game, that's very, very different, like a world away from what the women players are experiencing.

Speaker 9 Whether you're at a top club, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, the standards and the conditions for players are not the same between men and women.

Speaker 9 So that kind of gap that that creates means that women are always in a position where they're not being able to, like what Meryl said, to rest, recover.

Speaker 9 And the expertise around the players is not, again, for high-performance athletes.

Speaker 9 I always give this analogy of like, if you're, you know, one of the multidisciplinary teams and support staff and you come out of university and like you have got a job at a top men's club and a top women's club and the salaries are hugely different of course like any normal human you'd go for the higher salary so that means there's a quality control issue in women's football i.e the expertise around the players is not good enough and then the expertise if you do get the odd couple of medical doctors or data analysts that work in the women's team and they're very very good at the jobs quite often that's used as a stepping stone to men's football so it's like this recycling issue that you have the issue remains the same without any proactive solutions to remedy the issues that women face

Speaker 10 if possible i'd like to add one really good example to uh to emphasis on this all the guys pretty much every single top-level player flies in charters to away games so you drive with your bus you drive to the plane you get in the plane you get off the plane and you drive straight home which is great like i i i love it for them but in the women's game most of the teams unless it's like a really important game we fly in economy normal flights so you drive to the club then the club drives to the airport there you go through the security checks and you have to be there for two hours ahead and then you get to the plane and then you get home you have to wait for your suitcase and then you go back to the club pick up your car and go back so like

Speaker 10 And that's like, I'm not saying that I would love to fly in charters.

Speaker 7 And I understand there's economically a difference between men's football and women's football and i'm not saying that we we are demanding charter flights it'd be great that's for sure but it just gives you example of our schedules are the same but the circumstances are different i i remember you mentioned liverpool there alex wasn't there a situation once where they actually had physios and had proper recovery on the plane when they were in istanbul or somewhere like that they'd played extra time and and they were getting you know all of their treatments on the on the flight back ahead of a crucial premier league game It might have been after the Super Cup or something like that.

Speaker 7 Somebody will be able to tell me specifically, but I just can't see that in the women's game. As you say, Meryl, you're getting normal domestic flights.
It's very, very, very, very different.

Speaker 7 Neither one

Speaker 7 is more important,

Speaker 7 but it's vital to show the discrepancy, Meryl, isn't it?

Speaker 10 Yes. And besides that, now I'm talking about flying to games, but how often do they go take buses? Like, so often.

Speaker 10 I've been in, when I played at Batiste, we went from Sevilla Sevilla to Atlantico de Bilbao. That was a 12-hour bus ride.
And that's only like five years ago. I think they still do that.

Speaker 10 I really think there's still teams in Spain that take 12-hour bus rides because it's cheaper than take planes.

Speaker 7 Susie, sorry, you were going to jump in.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I was just going to say, I think one of the big issues is that you've got elite men's players having been groomed for like

Speaker 8 this number of games from a very, very early age.

Speaker 8 So when you say, you know, for example, a men's Premier League player is playing double the number of games as the women's, women's Super League players. So you don't really need to

Speaker 8 worry about the number of games women are playing. They're playing so, so few less than the men.

Speaker 8 The reality for the women's players is they've not been groomed for elite level football and playing three days a week from like the age of five or six in the same way that men's players have.

Speaker 8 So there's this like discrepancy in the development of the game and the calendar

Speaker 8 expecting a lot more physically than the bodies are able to take. I think that's a huge issue as well.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's this

Speaker 7 there's lots and lots of

Speaker 7 different issues, and it's very difficult to compare men's and women's football from many different ways. But let's focus back on women's football specifically.

Speaker 7 And this problem of having summer and winter calendars in different leagues across the world is really significant, as it is in men's football additionally.

Speaker 7 But Meryl mentioned jet lag is one issue, but there's much more to it than just that. Sarah, what would you say is most important in terms of an increased alignment maybe to improve the situation?

Speaker 7 How do do we get to that point?

Speaker 11 I think it's really important. I mean, we are talking in women's football about quite a small number of leagues overall.

Speaker 11 So, if you can get a reasonable amount, even the maximum amount of alignment possible, it is to the benefit of the players because then it is easier to regulate rest and recovery across the board.

Speaker 11 Otherwise, you're having to wait for domestic conversations to take place and hoping that there's like a really strong industrial representative of the clubs, of the league, of the players, and that they can all come together and have a strong working relationship so that they can derive some of these solutions at an individual sort of domestic level.

Speaker 11 If you can get maximum alignment across the professional leagues in particular with regards to start dates and end dates, it's easier to have collective solutions that benefit all players globally and relatively equally.

Speaker 11 So I think because we're talking about quite a smaller, relatively speaking industry, I think there is more opportunity for people to come together and try and have innovative, proactive solutions that get ahead of these problems emerging in the future where you see just a lot of competing interests and less likelihood of everybody sitting in a room and talking to each other.

Speaker 11 And obviously there are limitations to that due to climates, due to seasonal challenges.

Speaker 11 But I think in as much as we can, because you're probably talking about really eight to ten professional leagues, we should work hard to make sure that there is alignment between them.

Speaker 11 So if you're a national team and you've got players who play in Spain, England and the US, for example, you can actually say, okay, we're going to do this with the upcoming international window because we know that this group of particular players have all experienced like quite a congested part of their seasons because all of the seasons are relatively aligned.

Speaker 11 Therefore, we're going to do X with this international window instead of doing Y.

Speaker 11 So I think you're able actually to find more of those solutions, but I think solutions individually, but also solutions collectively because you're all sort of singing off the same hymn sheet.

Speaker 11 So, yeah, I think in as much as it is possible, it is important to get alignment across the board.

Speaker 11 And I think, you know, we're still, as it's already been said on the podcast, professional football is still in its infancy.

Speaker 11 So, if you can start doing some of that work now, it will set a much healthier precedent for future discussions.

Speaker 8 Alex, Europe has dominated this discussion a little bit recently, particularly with this July window causing so many issues with UEFA scheduling competitive qualifiers in a majority of the players' off-season.

Speaker 8 That's garnered criticism from a lot of people, including England's manager Serene Wiegman. Obviously, it's a very Eurocentric view of things.
And as Sarah said, it's a lot bigger than that.

Speaker 8 And alignment would help solve some of those issues a little bit. But what do you make of the situation that Europe is facing and the players in Europe are facing this summer?

Speaker 9 I think because of the development of professional women's football in Europe is much more accelerated, if you like, in a more concentrated continent.

Speaker 9 And you've got the historical club competitions like the US League and UEFA are probably the most proactive confederation for women's football development globally.

Speaker 9 So I think there's like a bit of a melting pot, if you like, of acceleration, product, i.e. like the game is very, very good.

Speaker 9 What that means is that actually, because of all those like surround and factors, if you like, in the nucleus of that is the players and they're being pulled from pillar to post.

Speaker 9 So, I think, obviously, UEFA's decision to put a competitive fixture in the July window obviously went down very, very badly with players and coaches.

Speaker 9 And anyone who understands and comes from an understanding of player welfare at the heart of any decision.

Speaker 9 So, I think Europe is unique insofar as they have an international club competition with the Champions League. They have a really developed qualification process for for the World Cup.

Speaker 9 They have a very established UEFA European Championship. And so like those kind of high-usage players are mainly concentrated in Europe.

Speaker 9 So they are the ones feeling the absolute backlash of these decisions that are made by competition organisers such as UEFA.

Speaker 9 I guess not to throw shade on UEFA, but I think what would be really important is that when

Speaker 9 governing bodies say they're making player-centric decisions, that player voice is centralised in that.

Speaker 9 And that before decisions are made, they should really take into consideration how it will really implicate the players, not just like in the season to come, but over you know, over many seasons.

Speaker 9 And we did some modeling, for example, on a couple of the players, both in Europe and outside. And someone like Aitana Bommati by 2027, she's nearly playing 70 games a season.

Speaker 9 Without doing the modeling on the individual players and then club to club, national team to national teams, and getting really holistic pictures, you don't really see the implications.

Speaker 9 You just just see, oh, great, we're introducing new competitions, and that's seen as like development. But actually, growth, i.e., growth, doesn't necessarily mean better.

Speaker 9 We should actually just be thinking of improving existing competitions, increasing job opportunities for professional women footballers without like overloading players, and players really feeling the impact of that most heavily.

Speaker 9 And Sarah, I don't know if you've got anything to say on that, actually, because you've probably got some interesting thoughts.

Speaker 11 The only other thing that would add is the July window is interesting because England are playing Sweden. Sweden are in season.

Speaker 11 So even within like that example within that window, if you're a player playing in Sweden you've got no problems with the July window because it's smack bang in the middle of your season and actually

Speaker 11 like it's it's not as disruptive. It would be more disruptive to have that sort of at the end a fixture of that magnitude to be played in January, February or November, December.

Speaker 11 So I think even in that small example, you can see the challenge because, of course, if you play in the WSL, that's a hugely problematic window for you.

Speaker 11 But the opposition in Sweden, it's smack bang in the middle of their season, and they're quite used to that. Like their season is hugely disrupted by the placement of the World Cup, for example.

Speaker 11 So it goes a little bit back to what you said earlier about alignment, Faye, but I think Alex has nailed it.

Speaker 11 If you have a player-first mentality, then you put that particular window and that particular decision from a competition organiser well under the microscope.

Speaker 7 So, what about the Olympics?

Speaker 7 Because obviously, you know, having competitive games scheduled so close to a major tournament, as you say, is going to benefit some of the competitors within the Olympics because

Speaker 7 they're in full flow, if you like, but be a massive hindrance to others.

Speaker 11 It's a bit more of an existential question on the purpose and the role of the Olympics in the match calendar overall. It's a 12-team tournament, only eighteen spots on the roster per national team.

Speaker 11 It's not aligned with obviously really the international match calendar more broadly and it's certainly not aligned with the men's competition which has sixteen teams is an under twenty three categorisation.

Speaker 11 So I think the Olympics in terms of how it fits overall, I think if you look at how women's football has developed over the last ten years in particular, I do think we need to reflect on the role of the Olympics overall.

Speaker 11 Obviously I come from New Zealand and the Olympics is hugely important, not just from a competitive perspective, but also from a funding perspective. A lot of

Speaker 11 sort of local Olympic committees provide funding to sports that would otherwise be under-resourced. That was certainly the case for, and is the case for New Zealand.

Speaker 11 It's another access to a different type of funding. For a small to media member association like New Zealand football, that's hugely important.

Speaker 11 But I think as we continue to grow, and as Alex rightly says, we have to look at what we mean when we say growth. Sometimes

Speaker 11 having more of something doesn't necessarily mean that it's better.

Speaker 11 So we have to look at quality over quantity as well. But I think without getting too nerdy on the Olympics, because we have this discussion a lot, I think

Speaker 11 it's a challenging and existential question on its role in women's football, particularly in the future, I think, once we get beyond 2028 in particular.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 7 You know, there are comments of whether it goes a similar direction to men's football within the Olympics in terms of it being a younger, maybe under-23s-focused tournament.

Speaker 7 But again, when we talk about women's football being in its infancy, particularly in other places around the world, it's something that maybe is a discussion for

Speaker 7 further down the line. Meryl, I just want to focus on underloading with you, actually, because there's been a lot of talk about overloading of players across the game.
Sarah mentioned their

Speaker 7 quality over quantity, but there isn't as much focus on the kind of underloading. Can you try and explain from a player's point of view the challenges that that presents?

Speaker 7 And what's it like out in Mexico, which is a really growing league at the moment?

Speaker 10 Well, in Mexico, actually, we are overloaded.

Speaker 10 So Mexico would not be an example of underloading because in Mexico, what they do is they have a competition, a very large competition of 18 teams where they play two full seasons in one year.

Speaker 10 So you have one season from January until the end of May, and then another season from June, end of June until December. So actually Mexico is one of the countries that

Speaker 10 I love it here, but there's one big problem and that's that's the calendar here in Mexico. Even if you're not on a national team, like I've been talking to my teammates, there's no holiday here.

Speaker 10 And especially because they're adding the Summer Cup now in the summer with the NWSL teams between Mexico and the United States. there is no rest.

Speaker 10 And I even heard last year from my teammates that they weren't able to go home for Christmas, for example, because the season started on the 7th or 6th of January and they weren't allowed to go home.

Speaker 10 So Mexico would not be an example of underloading, but I do see the issue of underloading. But I do think that underloading in the end is always easier to solve.

Speaker 10 I think, because it's always easy to find some friendlies.

Speaker 10 You know, the only problem with that is that it's friendlies and you want to play high-level games and you want to develop the game of your team.

Speaker 10 But in the end, there's always some extra clubs that are also underloaded. So if those clubs could

Speaker 10 find them amongst each other, they could definitely have a quick solution for that.

Speaker 10 The only thing is like when you're not playing Champions League or you're playing in Brazil or Colombia competition or in Asia even, then obviously it's like you want a competition like that too.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 I do think it's not as easy to solve the problem. I understand FIFA too.

Speaker 10 Like it is not as easy because you want to take some competitions out or you want to give some other people's rest, but you don't want to give more rest to people that want more games.

Speaker 10 So it definitely is complicated. But I think, like I said, it's easier to solve under,

Speaker 10 like when they're underloaded.

Speaker 9 If you think about overload affects a very small proportion of players, it's around 30% of the overall playing community, like overload or high-usage players, maybe even less.

Speaker 9 So I think there's a big 70% of players who don't play enough competitive football and that's problematic for the development of the game overall.

Speaker 10 When you say don't play enough, what would be an ideal amount of games a year? What do you?

Speaker 9 So there's, I don't think there's like, from our perspective anyway, like not an ideal amount, but it's, it's so that, for example,

Speaker 9 players last year in the FAWSL had four months without any competitive football. They are international footballers who play.

Speaker 9 you know international football but they also play in the fawsl the league's only small it's only 12 teams so if you compare like and said always uses this, and it's a good example.

Speaker 9 If you compare, like, a men's Premier League player, it's got 20 games, 20 teams, and then the FA WSL players who've only got 12 teams.

Speaker 9 Obviously, like underload won't be an issue for non-international footballers in men's football.

Speaker 9 But in women's football, if you've only got a very small league and then you don't go very far in the league club or the FA Cup, then you're hitting like 22 games a season.

Speaker 9 I don't think anyone can really develop from that, even like a club in terms of its commercial development, in terms of bringing players in.

Speaker 9 There's lots of like offshoots of problems that emerge from like the issue of underload.

Speaker 9 So I don't think there's like a, and Sarah, I don't know, like we've discussed this load and we don't know what like a perfect amount of games would be, but we do know that underload affects more players generally in the industry.

Speaker 9 So it's when we think about the calendar, you get caught a lot in the like really cool stories or like the sexy stories of your life of like the players who are massively overloaded.

Speaker 9 And I think part of that is because it's an easy comparison to men's football. Underload doesn't exist in men's football.
It's a very women's football specific problem.

Speaker 9 And I think that that is really where the nuance and the narrative exists. And really the innovation needs to come to think about competition expansion in terms of like

Speaker 9 league size, in terms of like number of quality teams, relegation, promotion, closed leagues, all of these different like components

Speaker 9 to think about underload. But I do know it's a problem that affects a large proportion of players.
And I don't think it's considered enough from competition organisers' perspective.

Speaker 7 It's interesting that you say there about sexy stories. And there's definitely a narrative when it comes to ACLs,

Speaker 7 which we're going to discuss in a second. Sorry, Meryl, carry on.

Speaker 10 What the problem is, is also the coaches, because sometimes they add a really cool pre-season camp.

Speaker 10 And those games, they should play with people that didn't go to the big tournaments.

Speaker 10 But what do coaches do or what do clubs demand or what do sponsors demand of such a big tournament is that the big names play.

Speaker 10 So it's also a responsibility of the club, like play those friendlies, play all of those other games that are not important or preseason, play them with the players that didn't go to the big tournament.

Speaker 10 So if you're in Everton and you have those four months off because maybe you didn't go so far in the FA Cup, and then you have those four months, get all of the players that are not international players to play a friendly or a really cool tournament with other players that didn't go to the friend that to the big tournaments and so it if everybody just a little bit more creative and think about the players that do play in all competitions i think that is what i said why i said like a little bit more creative and we can solve that problem well i mean the creativity also uh they have to i know that they're thinking commercially i know what they need to do but i mean arsenal going to australia postseason is a prime example of this and unfortunately they're not going to think creatively because all they're going to want is to have their star players playing in a tournament like that uh susie you had a point yeah sarah i just wanted to ask you in an ideal world what you think a player focused holistic approach to a calendar looks like because i think that's the key question right is less you know we've got all these problems what what would in in your minds like a a positive player focused calendar look like well i start with what telling you a little bit about what happens at the moment so because i also think it's worth pointing out the international match calendar is a framework and then different competition organizers populate that framework with international tournaments, confederation-level tournaments, international club competitions like the Champions League, and domestic competitions.

Speaker 11 So everyone, if you think of it as like a pie, everybody takes a slice of the pie. And some people get access to that pie earlier than others.

Speaker 11 FIFA can take the first slice because they set the framework. So they say, right, we're going to have a...
a World Cup, potentially a club World Cup. We're taking these two slices.

Speaker 11 Confederations come in next. they put in their championships, any international club competitions.
Do you know what I mean? So everyone just sort of like eats away at this.

Speaker 11 What we're saying is before anybody touches the pie, there are certain moments that cannot be touched. Those are the protected rest periods for players.

Speaker 11 So you can take your bites from the pie, your slices from the pie around those times, but not into those times, if that makes sense.

Speaker 11 Because when you're talking about overload and underload, sometimes it's not just about the number of games. It's about when those games are scheduled.

Speaker 11 It's about where you place the different competitions. Because if you just look at the international match calendar on its own, it's actually all right.

Speaker 11 If you just look at your domestic league competition, it's actually all right. If you just look at Champions League, it's actually all right.

Speaker 11 It's when you put them all together that it becomes an absolute like bunfight. It becomes really terrible.
So

Speaker 11 before anybody chips away at the space in the calendar, lock in the rest.

Speaker 11 Lock in the rest for leagues that run over a traditional European winter and lock them in for leagues that run on sort of the opposite calendar of around March to October, November.

Speaker 11 And then place the competitions around that.

Speaker 11 And then the other principle that you need to keep in mind, which is a little bit what Meryl was saying earlier, and particularly important when you're talking about issues related to travel, is there is a limit to the number of back-to-back matches a human being can play.

Speaker 11 There's only so many times that you can get up and play within 48 to 72 hours of game after game after game. We call this appearances in the critical zone.

Speaker 11 So if you've got a limit on back-to-back games and you've got set rest and recovery periods, you put the rest of the competitions around that.

Speaker 11 So it's flipping the way that we approach this framework different to how we approach it right now.

Speaker 11 And I think if you start with that in mind, you end up with a pretty relative figure for number of matches because it's just there's only 365 days in the year. So you just end up with a figure.

Speaker 11 And then I think you also begin to address underload because, in situations where you have a limited number of teams in a league, for example, at least those matches are being placed consistently.

Speaker 11 Because what we see, particularly with global leagues, is you'll get a high concentration of matches at this point in the year, and then eight weeks without any competitive fixture.

Speaker 11 That's also an injury risk. Because if you're not

Speaker 11 kept at a condition that allows you to compete, it's also as much of an injury risk as if you're overconditioned and you're having to compete all the time.

Speaker 11 So, I think that is the approach that we would certainly advocate for at FIF Pro.

Speaker 11 And I think it would just really change the dynamic around this conversation and would require a hell of a lot more collaboration than what we're seeing at the moment.

Speaker 7 Let's talk ACLs. You know, we talked about the kind of sexy narrative that is around earlier on.

Speaker 7 And, Meryl, we've kind of seen and are still seeing a huge number of ACL injuries across the women's game.

Speaker 7 And it always raises an eyebrow, particularly when a high-profile player picks up this particular injury, which is multifaceted.

Speaker 7 But does overloading and underloading kind of feel like a significant contributing factor to it?

Speaker 9 I think so.

Speaker 10 I did mine, honestly, in 2013 when I just came back from playing in the United States, came back to the Netherlands for an international camp and on the second day

Speaker 10 I tore my ACL so obviously it's very hard to statistically prove that because of the calendar women are tearing the ACLs like I don't know if that's already proven but it is true that we see so many ACL injuries lately especially of the players that we are talking about they're overloaded I think ACL though is a problem that's been there all forever like women just tear the ACLs more often than men I think the way we are shaped or whatever but I do want to emphasize on the fact that all of the research that been that's been done is mostly on the male body so and all of the best best best medical teams they're probably what alex said they're probably in the men's football so it's like if we take everything in consideration the way the conditions of our travels the amount that we play the rest that we do not get and then

Speaker 10 to go all year round because that's a point that I think we haven't said too much because if you're listening now and you're not a football player but for example you're a handball player or you're an ice skater or any other olympic sport then most of the time what you have is like you go for really really hard training for a while but then there's also a long offseason but football nowadays it literally goes from january to december And that for every, like for years and years and years.

Speaker 10 And women's football is growing so much that the career is not now only five years, how it was maybe 20 years ago, but the careers now of Fivion Amira or even my career it started when i was 18 i'm 31 now and i still would love to play some extra years so we're talking about 15 years of football from january to december and then as a woman where there's not done enough research of why we tear our acls i think that just has to be there has to be a connection between the number of acls and the schedule Yeah, it's interesting as well, because like one of the things you were talking about earlier, this issue of travel, it's one of the things that M.

Speaker 8 Hayes pointed out as being an issue issue that she had noticed or a pattern that she had noticed in players suffering ACL injuries. Sam Kerr did hers straight after the winter break.

Speaker 8 Fiv Midimer did the same, like it was coming off an international break and then going back into club.

Speaker 8 You know, obviously, there's many, many reasons why they happen, but you know, it's interesting that there's some kind of like sly pattern there.

Speaker 8 Alex, you've been working a lot on the issue of ACL injuries. Like, from your point of view, how much does scheduling play a part of that? Like, how much does it feed into it?

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think, like, I don't want to be alarmist about this whatsoever, because I think there's we've got to approach this with caution.

Speaker 9 Like Medal said, six percent of all sports science research is done on women. So that means there's a massive 94% done on men.

Speaker 9 That means, like, we don't have enough information on, like, what are the factors that contribute to ACL injury and other serious injury as well.

Speaker 9 What's happened is that high-profile players have done their ACL. Those injuries are multi-factorial.

Speaker 9 But I think the most alarming thing, and the thing that I guess we probably need to recalibrate on is women are two to six times more likely to do their ACL injury.

Speaker 9 And that figure hasn't gone down from when they started recording ACLs in 1990.

Speaker 9 So we know that the existing mitigate and injury reduction programmes, et cetera, or the training that we're doing and the information that we're gathering is not sufficient enough to be able to reduce the number of ACL injuries.

Speaker 9 So, I think rightly so, players, high-profile players, have called for more research. This is absolutely essential.
We need to do very gender-specific research.

Speaker 9 And then we need to consider holistically the multi-factorial injury that is ACL. So, they are things like the most obvious things, like what you've just said, Susie, like the calendar.

Speaker 9 Some people are doing research on football boots. For me, these are quite superfluous.
I think what's really important is when you're talking about Viv or you're talking about Merle or Sam or whoever,

Speaker 9 automatically, and this is the alarm bell for me was when Leah Williamson did their ACL injury. And straight away, again, no criticisms of the media, but everyone said it's Leah's workload.

Speaker 9 Leah is not even in the top 20 players of most games played.

Speaker 9 So I think once you zoom out a little bit and then start to think about, well, what is the, we know what Leah's workload is, but what are the unknown factors?

Speaker 9 We don't know what a training load's like. We don't know what the support staff are like at Arsenal, what facilities they have, what access they have.

Speaker 9 These really conditions-based questions are we can just put a question mark to them because we don't know. Now,

Speaker 9 rightly so, players are calling for more research, and that's really, really important.

Speaker 9 But I think we've got to be quite like strategic on what we can actually affect and the very basics of football: what are the minimums in place for clubs across the world?

Speaker 9 They don't exist, minimum standards in leagues.

Speaker 9 There's licensing criteria in the FAWSL that we know clubs do not meet, and that is very, very problematic because when you think about the quality of the game, and I always think about this: like there's been exponential growth of women's football, so there's an exponential inverse on the graph.

Speaker 9 The support staff is more of a linear regression, so like there's a linear line if you like across the graph.

Speaker 9 If we're doing an imaginary graph, that from top to bottom, that gap is where players are falling through, And that is where ACL injuries are occurring and other injuries as well.

Speaker 9 And then we know when women do an ACL injury, they're more susceptible to doing a second ACL injury. So I think this like holistic, balanced picture needs to be presented.

Speaker 9 It needs to be critically analysed.

Speaker 9 And there needs to be collaboration from multiple stakeholders, not just saying like, like Sarah always says this, it's like that Spider-Man meme when it's like, it's your fault, it's your fault, it's the calendar, no, it's this, it's workload, it's that.

Speaker 9 And then it's like, no, actually, again, with the player voice at the centre, what are the, what are the things that players are experiencing day to day in their clubs?

Speaker 9 How do they change when they go to a national team environment? What are the gaps that emerge? And how can we remedy and mitigate that?

Speaker 9 by collective and collaborative ways of working is like a very nutshell, non-nutshell way of looking at it, I think.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I mean, one

Speaker 11 important point on that, ACL injuries cost money. They are a huge cost to our industry.

Speaker 11 They cost sponsors because the high-profile players that they build their campaigns around all of a sudden don't appear at World Cups or at Euros or in high-profile matches. It's a cost to the player.

Speaker 11 What you lose by not being available for almost a year of your career, hopefully, you have a 15-year career like Merrill, but we know, like, we did research in 2019, which says the average woman's football career is like five to eight years.

Speaker 11 So if you take a year out of that, what you lose as a player hasn't been quantified yet, but we certainly know it's something. So, I think,

Speaker 11 yes, everything does come back to money,

Speaker 11 but injuries cost money. They are taking money out of the pockets of players, out of the pockets of sponsors, out of the pockets of clubs, national teams, because it's about player availability.

Speaker 11 And we're not going to have the best players available all of the time if we don't look at why this is such a prolific injury for women's football players across such a long period of time.

Speaker 11 Meryl did hers in 2013. I did mine in 2009.
Don't think it was, obviously, no one was building campaigns or anything around me, but you know, it has been around since women have been playing football.

Speaker 4 So I do think

Speaker 11 when we talk about costs, we're talking about a reactionary cost rather than like, what are we losing?

Speaker 11 What's the money that's being left on the table? Because we're not looking at this properly and we don't have greater player availability across the board.

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 7 it's so, so vital. The ACL point is a massive part of this conversation.

Speaker 7 But I just want to leave the final word on all of this, rounding up the whole thing to Meryl as the only current player on the pod. What do you want to see done in terms of scheduling in the future?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I want the people that can actually make decisions, that means FIFA, UEFA, and every single coach that in the end decides who is going to be in the starting 11,

Speaker 10 to take in consideration the players' mental rest above all.

Speaker 10 Because it is not easy to never have a holiday and just keep going and keep going. And you want to play those games, of course, like everybody wants to play those games.

Speaker 10 And it's amazing the life of a football player. Everything is amazing, really.
But if you do it for so long without holiday, just like any other job, when it gets too much, you stop enjoying it.

Speaker 10 So I really, really hope that all of the people that can actually make decisions, I cannot tell my coach when he puts me in the 11 and say, no, I don't want to play today.

Speaker 10 So I don't have that decision. It's not in the hands of the players.
It's in the hands of FIFA.

Speaker 10 It's in the hands of UEFA and it's in the hands of all the other trainers and coaches that make those decisions.

Speaker 10 And I really, really hope that they're taking into consideration that we need holiday, some good rest between games.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's really vital.

Speaker 7 And, you know, conversations and pods like this are really important to keep the conversation relevant and make a lot of people who perhaps are fans and supporters of the women's game aware of what's going on.

Speaker 7 Because sometimes it's easy just to focus on the footballing side of things and the fandom side of things, but there's a lot more going on in terms of the growth of the game going forward.

Speaker 7 It feels really bad. I really want pie after Sarah mentioning a pie.
And I also really want to watch Spider-Man as well after Alex mentioned that.

Speaker 7 Listen, it's been a real pleasure to have all three of you on the pod with us today. Thank you so much for taking the time out.
Take care of yourselves.

Speaker 10 Thank you so much.

Speaker 11 Thank you so much.

Speaker 9 Thanks. Bye.

Speaker 7 Just to let you know, we have been in touch with Wafer. This is the statement that they've given us.

Speaker 7 The introduction of the Nations League and the new European qualifiers format was a significant step for women's national team football to counteract the beforehand existing sporting imbalance and to optimise the use of international match calendar windows by replacing friendlies with competitive matches.

Speaker 7 This change was desired and approved by all European national associations and it was clear from the beginning that 18 match days are necessary to play this competition.

Speaker 7 Thus, every window in the FIFA international match calendar had to be used.

Speaker 7 The FIFA Women's International Match Calendar is a framework of dates set by FIFA that represents a compromise between all needs and constraints from global football stakeholders.

Speaker 7 It's the very basis for Confederations' competitions and domestic leagues planning. Look, Susie, it's really important to say, which

Speaker 7 everybody mentioned within that discussion, that the whole scheduling process is mediated by FIFA.

Speaker 7 There are loads of different organisations and stakeholders involved and they all say that they're prioritising player welfare.

Speaker 7 But of course, there is a balance between that and the need to grow the game globally. What are your thoughts on what everyone's had to say?

Speaker 8 Yeah, so it's a really difficult question, isn't it? Because

Speaker 8 there's just so many facets to it, right? There's so many competing interests. Confederations have all their various competitions to insert into the calendar.

Speaker 8 Clubs and leagues, you know, want to insert a certain number of games into the calendar. There's the Winter League, Summer League.
All of these things are competing.

Speaker 8 So they all go into this melting pot that FIFA coordinates and sort of has to come out with a solution. And I think it's going to be really difficult to get everyone happy.

Speaker 8 But for me, the key has to be that the player perspective is central to that, which is why it's been so great to have FIFA Pro on to chat about some of these issues because the impact on the players is paramount.

Speaker 8 Obviously, you want top-level competitions, but you're only going to have top-level competitions if you have happy players. So, making sure that that is the case is vital.

Speaker 8 But, yes, it's not an easy problem to solve.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's a really fascinating discussion, and we really want to hear your thoughts and what everybody's had to say on the calendar. That is it for part one, though.

Speaker 7 Next, Sophie Downey is going to be joining us, and we'll look at an eye-catching Champions League win for Chelsea and the latest updates from the Barclays WSL and Championship.

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Speaker 7 Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Producer Sophie is with us.
How are you doing?

Speaker 4 I'm very good, thank you. Fascinating first part, I think.
So, yeah, excited to get going.

Speaker 7 Absolutely. I'm fascinated to hear what everybody else has to think about it.
It was a really interesting discussion to take part in. And it's been a really eventful weekend, actually.

Speaker 7 Let's assess the Champions League, shall we? The semi-final first legs did not disappoint. Historic win and an extraordinary comeback.
Set up two mouth-watering finales next weekend.

Speaker 7 Barcelona, as you'll know, have been Chelsea's Champions League nemesis in recent seasons. The only team standing between them and the only trophy they've never won during Emma Hayes' tenure.

Speaker 7 But the Blues travelled to Spain on Saturday knowing that they had to keep it tight so they could have something to fight for at Stamford Bridge next Saturday.

Speaker 7 And they more than delivered, didn't they? Earning a historic victory and subjecting Barcelona to their first home defeat since February 2019. It finished in the end, Barcelona 0.

Speaker 7 Chelsea won with Erin Cuthbert's 40th minute strike proving to be the winner. And it was the first time Chelsea have beaten the current European champion, Susie.

Speaker 7 Emma Hayes afterwards reflected, you know, everything has to be perfect for you to get close to winning a game of football against them. We took our chance.
How impressive was that performance?

Speaker 8 Incredible.

Speaker 8 Like, it was just...

Speaker 8 just such a well-orchestrated plan. And I think, like, you know, yeah, you have to be perfect to get close to winning a game of football against Barcelona.

Speaker 8 They got as close to perfect as you can get, right? There was the mistake for the penalty, which was luckily ruled out for offside in the second half.

Speaker 8 But other than that, like, you've got to say that just as a collective performance with a game plan, it was superb.

Speaker 8 There was just something to the way they were just so much more street smart than they were, I'd say, last year in the same games.

Speaker 8 They were just, you know, they knew they couldn't concede early, which has sort of been their downfall in the final um or you know say against arsenal last year in the conti cup or against man united in the semi-final of the fa cup this season like they concede early and they struggle to get back into games and go on to win them against top top level opponents but this was a real clever astute performance with some real street smart to it they frustrated barcelona they time wasted they you know went down under every challenge they were slow you know hannah hampton would like fall on the ball every time she collected it so that it was, oh, I've got, I've got to get up before I can kick off the game again.

Speaker 8 You know,

Speaker 8 I need the time to gently get to my feet. And, you know, like just real street smart performance that was so impressive for me that I just really enjoyed.

Speaker 8 And it was really satisfying because, you know, Barcelona and Spain are perennial time wasters themselves and like proper into like kind of getting under the other team's skin and stuff.

Speaker 8 And it was quite nice to see that go the other way. But I just, incredible, incredible performance.
I felt lucky to be there to see it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, Street Smart is a good way of putting it, actually, Susie. And she did get the game plan spot on, so for Emma Hayes, didn't she?

Speaker 7 She's known for her tactical acumen, but a shift to a back three really helped nullify Barcelona's threats.

Speaker 7 They had just one shot on target, which is not the Barcelona that we know, which meant that Chelsea went and got the job done, but they did so much more than just that, didn't they?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think all across the park, it was, you know, spot on from Emma Hayes and all of the preparation they've obviously been working on towards this game. This is the game, I think, for Emma Hayes.

Speaker 4 Well, this one and the return leg next week, you know, it's the one trophy, as you said, that has eluded her in her time at Chelsea. And Barcelona have been that kind of figure for so long.

Speaker 4 And I do think, you know, the way that the back three worked,

Speaker 4 it's not like there were any surprises from Barcelona. We know what they're about, right? We know the talent that they have.

Speaker 4 We know what Caroline and Graham Hampson can do down the right and Itana Bomati can do in the middle and the strength of Frida Lena Rolfa and the running that she has and all of the different pieces aren't surprises to anyone anymore.

Speaker 4 It's just how do you stop them?

Speaker 4 And I think the way that she used the three at the back, but especially with the wing backs, you know, Johanna writing canerid, that was one of her performances of the year.

Speaker 4 I think she's been brilliant all year, but the way that she tracked back and just kept running and running and running.

Speaker 4 And in the first half, she had a lot of space to work in when they turned the ball over and had those opportunities. But in the second half, it was just a real dogged, energetic display.

Speaker 4 She wasn't letting anyone get past her down that side. And then on the other side, the combination of Niamh Charles at the kind of left centre-back role and then

Speaker 4 Ashley Lawrence in the left wing back role. And Ashley Lawrence can offer so much in the forward areas, but she also provides that defensive cover.

Speaker 4 And when you're facing Caroline Gray and Hampson, which in my opinion is definitely up there alongside a Tannibon Matty as the best player in the world, and to completely nullify her for pretty much 90 minutes.

Speaker 4 Yes, she had got through occasionally, but there was always an extra player behind her or in front of her. So if she beat Ashley Lawrence, well, then she had to deal with Neve Charles.

Speaker 4 So I think it was spot on. And it also meant they were able to crowd out the midfield area.
So Bon Matty and Akira Walsh weren't able to utilise their strengths as much as possible.

Speaker 4 And I know some people will say Barcelona weren't at the races. It wasn't their best day and it wasn't.

Speaker 4 But I think the energy and application of the Chelsea team, you earn your own luck in life, right? And

Speaker 4 when you work as hard as they did and run as hard as they did for the entire 90 minutes against a team who are considered, quite rightly, as the best team, club team, in world football, then you deserve your moments where the rubber the green goes away.

Speaker 4 And I think the best example may be Alexia Puteus'

Speaker 4 miss with the final kick of the game. You know, that goes in 99 times out of 100 or nine times out of ten, but it went wise.

Speaker 7 And I think that just shows that you do earn earn your luck on the day yep you certainly do and you mentioned a few players in there as well so uh but big plaudits as well to erin cuthbert and and myra ramirez as well but jess carter deserves all the plaudits she's currently getting susie was that her best performance for you in a chelsea shirt yeah i mean massively and you you contrast that with um her performance at the 2021 final um against barcelona where she was really really exposed and you thought oh god is this the end of her Chelsea career?

Speaker 8 Before it even really got going, it was like that bad and difficult for her to even be sort of in the game in any real sense.

Speaker 8 I thought all the backline were brilliant. Like, the wing backs were great.
The trio in the middle, Niamh Charles, Jess, and Skadesha Buchanan were all superb, but she was like...

Speaker 8 the architect of things in the middle. Like she was totally like pulling the strings.

Speaker 8 And I just, you cannot underestimate or understate the impact of a of limiting a team to one shot on target across a course of the entire game that has not failed to score since April 2022 right like and that one shot being a limp effort like in the 96th minute like deep into injury time as well so just dominating performance at the back that just stopped them from even getting a shot away on target for the overwhelming majority of the game was

Speaker 8 hugely, hugely impressive.

Speaker 7 Yeah, look, they piled on the pressure, didn't they, in the second half? Barcelona, they had a penalty decision overturned by VAR.

Speaker 7 Sophie mentioned Alexei Putez is firing wide with the last kick of the game. But the Barcelona players were particularly unhappy with the performance of the referee.

Speaker 7 Aitana Bon Mati actually accused Chelsea of playing dirty. She said, We've warned the referee, but it's not up to us if they allow it.
We have to know how to play with it.

Speaker 7 What did you make of her comments?

Speaker 4 Those were a bit of sour grapes from my point of view, I would say. I do, I actually thought Stephanie Frappat refereed it pretty well.

Speaker 4 Yes, she pointed to the spot, but I don't think anyone saw Selma offside in that move until you went to the screen. So I think that's the point of VAR, right?

Speaker 4 To point out those things that you don't see.

Speaker 4 I wouldn't have expected her to pick up that offside. So I think she refed it pretty well.
There were things that went for Chelsea.

Speaker 4 There were things that didn't go for Chelsea, and the same for Barcelona. And yes, Susie was right.
Chelsea, they time managed the the game really well.

Speaker 4 There was that particular moment, I think, when Hannah Hampton went down, literally did it in slow motion, which made me laugh quite a lot.

Speaker 4 But then there were other moments where, you know, there were some pretty brutal challenges at times on Chelsea players.

Speaker 4 And you think when, well, Jess Carter took a ball to the face, that riled up the crowd and she had to get treatment because that's, you know, concussion potential.

Speaker 4 There was a moment where Nuskin got taken down by Paredes. That was another thing that riled up the crowd.
She was genuinely hurt.

Speaker 4 And I think there were several challenges on Mayra Ramirez that got completely missed altogether. There was a stamp, well, not a stamp, but a, you know, a treading on her foot that took her down.

Speaker 4 They were quite physical with her as well. And she can give it, but, you know, there were fouls that she should have got in that respect.
And so I think it kind of evens out across the game.

Speaker 4 I just think Bon Matti was hurting at kind of losing in front of their home crowd in that enormous stadium, which is...

Speaker 4 I mean, I must say, one of the most incredible stadiums I've ever been in, the size of it and everything. So I think that was the hurt more than the actual what happened on the pitch.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's going to be fascinating at Stamford Bridge, isn't it?

Speaker 7 On Saturday, as we're recording, I think there are 25,000 tickets sold and hoping, obviously, to sell much more of that and make it a record crowd at Stamford Bridge.

Speaker 7 Susie, last week you weren't particularly hopeful of Chelsea making the final so far. Predictions going to, you know, Guardian Women's Football Weekly form.

Speaker 7 Wrong.

Speaker 8 But it is only half time and looking ahead to the second leg do you still think chelsea won't get over the line or are you more optimistic now what do i say what do i say because my predictions are bad so i can't say anything good can i i really think they can do it but it's like such a difficult task i think if they got a second goal like i would i would feel really really good about it but you know one goal is not a big margin barcelona have like not gone without scoring in a very, very long time.

Speaker 8 Will they do it in sort of, you know, back-to-back Champions League games? It's unlikely, right? So you need to be scoring. But I'd say the belief is there, right?

Speaker 8 They've made them look really infallible, like fallible rather than infallible that they've looked for so, so, so long.

Speaker 8 I'm hopeful that they can do it. I think it's doable.

Speaker 8 Whether they do it or not, I'm not, I'm still not convinced whether they will, but is that me playing it safe with my terrible terrible predictions?

Speaker 7 I think Sophie, as a Chelsea fan, needs you to be sitting on the fence and getting your splinters because she doesn't want you to jinx it.

Speaker 7 I like your thinking, it's very good. So, final one on this game from you.

Speaker 7 Sue has asked, given the great performance and result on Saturday, what do you think Emma Hayes' approach on this Saturday is going to be? Same starting 11 for you.

Speaker 7 How do you see it panning out?

Speaker 4 So, I am absolutely fascinated by this question because I've been literally thinking since the end of the game, what would I do in well, I'm not a football coach, first of all, but what will Emma Hayes do in this in this situation?

Speaker 4 Because the temptation is to stick, right?

Speaker 8 It worked so well.

Speaker 4 The way that they nullified Barcelona in the areas that I talked about earlier and the way that they got every inch of that game plan pretty much spot on, you would think you would stick with the same personnel that did the job the first time round.

Speaker 4 But I just have a sneaky feeling that Emma Hayes might have something up her sleeve for a home leg and might, with a week to prepare for it as well, might want to change either personnel or system.

Speaker 4 I wouldn't be surprised if I saw Guru Writing come in at home at Stanford Bridge. I think she adds so much down that, you know, in terms of an attacking threat.

Speaker 4 And it was maybe a bit of a surprise when we first saw the team sheet that she wasn't in it because she's such an experienced kind of player for that Emma Hayes team.

Speaker 4 So yeah, I'm fascinated to see what happens. I can't tell because the safe side of me would go, stick, stick with what you know worked.

Speaker 4 But then the sort of more reckless side of me goes, go, maybe you should try something a bit more wild.

Speaker 7 Oh, is she feeling wild, Emma Hayes? We shall find out. The other semi-final also served up a spectacle.
Sonia Bombastor's Leon came from two goals down to beat PSG at the Group Armour Stadium.

Speaker 7 It finished Leon three, PSG two.

Speaker 7 Paris surged into a two-goal lead through a brace from Marie Antoinette Cototo, but you can never count Leon out.

Speaker 7 Three goals in six minutes from Cadidia II Diani, Melchie DeMornay, and Amel Majri ensured a dramatic conclusion.

Speaker 7 So, PSG is so close, yet so far, from heading back to the Parc de Prance with a crucial first-leg lead. How do you even go about summing this one up? How did

Speaker 7 they react to the result?

Speaker 4 I would say it's kind of standard Paris and standard Lyon, both at the same time. You know,

Speaker 4 I've been having conversations about PSG this week, and they're kind of the most frustrating team on the planet because of the,

Speaker 4 well, one of anyway, because they have the players, they have great quality within their ranks, but they ultimately always fall at that hurdle.

Speaker 4 And then on the other side, you have Lyon, who, you know, perennial winners of a lot of different things. You know, they're the...

Speaker 4 have won the most amount of Champions Leagues in history, haven't they? So it is kind of,

Speaker 4 going to be a really interesting one. I don't know how you recover from that, you know, being so close to taking even a point back to Parc de Prince.

Speaker 4 But then in the final four minutes, you can see it again and you've lost the game. I don't know how you recover from that, but I would say Parc de Prince is a formidable place to go.

Speaker 4 The ultras are going to be noisy and they do still have to remember that they have everything to play for and this one goal, the difference. Before the game, they would have said, keep it tight.

Speaker 4 A bit like Chelsea had said before the game, going to Barcelona, keep it tight. You lose 1-0, it doesn't matter.
You come back and you have everything to play for.

Speaker 4 And they had to keep that in mind, I think, in terms of their mentality going into this one.

Speaker 7 Everything to play for back in England as well, with Chelsea beating 10-player Aston Villa comfortably mid-week to return to the top.

Speaker 7 Manchester City, once again, had to make sure that they kept up the pressure.

Speaker 7 And Gareth Taylor's side did exactly that, leapfrogging the current champions yet again with a stylish victory over West Ham at the Joy Stadium.

Speaker 7 It finished Manchester City five West Ham-two goals in the first three minutes. Left the Hammers with an absolute mountain to climb.

Speaker 7 Leila Uabi scoring her first goal for the club before Bunny Shaw scored her 20th and 21st strikes of the league campaign.

Speaker 7 January signing Laura Blinkilda Brown bagged her first goal for the club as well while Jess Park rounded off the scoring. Susie, it is Manchester City's 13th straight victory in the league.

Speaker 7 What did you make of their performance?

Speaker 8 There's an interesting thing, isn't there?

Speaker 8 That we've got Chelsea in a good place in the Champions League, Arsenal having won the Conte Cup, Man United or Spurs in the FA Cup final, and City and Chelsea, the favourites for the league, right?

Speaker 8 We could end up with a different name on every single trophy in theory, which would be pretty cool.

Speaker 8 They're just like so consistently dominant and like machine-like in their approach. They're nowhere near as good as the City Men's team or as slick or, you know, as beautiful football as that.

Speaker 8 But there's a lot of similarities in the sort of relentless winning and levels reached.

Speaker 8 Don't get me wrong, West Ham were poor, but it's always going to be comfortable for City against a team like that when they've only got one competition to compete for. Can they win the league?

Speaker 8 I think they can.

Speaker 7 Sophie seem to talk about her every single week and a player integral probably to Manchester City potentially winning the league is Bunny Shaw.

Speaker 7 She hit her 50th WSL goal, but, and this is the crucial, but, she picked up an injury later on in the game and was seen in a protective boot afterwards. How much of a worry is that?

Speaker 7 I know that Gareth Taylor has downplayed it.

Speaker 4 It is a huge worry because you think about what she adds to that front line of City. And, I mean, what she scored 21 goals a season.

Speaker 4 Without her, they are, you know, not the same animal as they are with her. And I think it will...

Speaker 4 My one worry with City All Season, I've been so impressed with the way that they've played and the way they've got like their form together, and the way everyone is pulling together to get the results that they have and go on the kind of winning streaks that they have.

Speaker 4 My one worry has been injury because they didn't buy that many people in the summer, they bought three in the winter who are very young and you know, definitely players for the future.

Speaker 4 And then Jill Rawd goes and gets her, does her ACL as well. And I was just always worried, especially that front front three area.

Speaker 4 If one of them, you know, got injured, what do you do in that situation? And how do you replace it when it's also, you know, so late in the season? What, three games to go?

Speaker 4 There's not a lot of time to try and fix things or work out those kinds of relationships. And Lauren Hemp played central, I think, yesterday when Bunny Shaw had to come off.

Speaker 4 That is an option, but it's still not got the same fluidity right to what we've been seeing from Manchester City all year. So that's been my one question about them and how they can adapt at that.

Speaker 4 Hopefully, she is fine because we want to see her fit in and firing Bunny Shaw in the last stages of the season.

Speaker 4 You know, she's the second quickest player to reach 50 goals in the WSL, the quickest being Viv Midamar.

Speaker 4 So that's a pretty impressive stat and the league is better for her and the league running will be better to have her in it. So fingers crossed, she's okay.

Speaker 7 Yeah, Jim has sent us in a question. Tongue in cheek, I think.

Speaker 7 Next time Bunny Shaw sees Erling Harland around the Etiad campus, maybe she should offer him some private tuition to help him rediscover his shooting boots.

Speaker 7 There you go, just putting that out there for you.

Speaker 7 Right, Arsenal ran out 3-0 victors in their final game of the campaign at the Emirates, thanks to a brace from Beth Mead and a goal from Alessia Russo.

Speaker 7 It was a day of celebration, with the result confirming European qualification for the gunners. While both Frida Marnham and Viviana Miedemar made welcome returns from the bench.

Speaker 7 Susie, European football was always a must, wasn't it, for Jonas Ideval side this season?

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the bare minimum, really, um, to be back in Europe.

Speaker 8 It's going to be hard on the basis of the players at their disposal to look at anything other than the Conte Cup win and European football as a disappointment, to be honest, because I think we expected so much more from them at the start of the season.

Speaker 8 Uh, so much more of a league challenge, so much more of a challenge. Well, in Europe, it was a pretty awful crashing out early doors of qualifying.

Speaker 8 I think this season is going to be looked on as a disappointment as a whole.

Speaker 8 European football is

Speaker 8 like it has to happen. It just has to because that under Conte Cup is, yeah, like I say, bare minimum.

Speaker 7 Yep, certainly is. Elsewhere, Everton beat Brighton 2-1 at the Amex on Friday night.
Well, Liverpool added to Bristol City's woes with a 1-0 victory over the Robins at Ashton Gate.

Speaker 7 Meanwhile, a 92nd-minute goal from Mayor Letissier ensured that Tottenham only went home with a point in a tool draw at Lee Sports Village.

Speaker 7 Now then, the penultimate weekend of an incredible championship season left Crystal Palace on the brink of becoming champions, barring the most unlikely of goal swings going against them on the final match day.

Speaker 7 Laura Kaminsky's team earned a comfortable 2-0 victory away to Lewis in front of a record crowd at the dripping pan, thanks to goals from Sinead Hopcroft and Molly May Sharp.

Speaker 7 With Charlton beating Sunderland by a goal to nil, it was a result that put them in the prime position to lift the trophy at Selhurst Park next weekend.

Speaker 7 The Addicts do need a miracle to spoil the party. They'd need to beat Southampton.
They'd need Palace to lose and for the goal difference to swing by 23 goals in their favour.

Speaker 7 I mean, to be fair, it is the championship, so it is possible, but probably highly unlikely. With the title comes promotion to the WSL, obviously subject to licensing approval, which is really key.

Speaker 7 We've seen it in the men's game, Gateshead's promotion from the National League into League Two being denied.

Speaker 7 I I mean, playing an entire season of football and playing and winning games enough to be promoted and then being told you can't make it into the league is just awful.

Speaker 7 Surely that should happen beforehand. But what's been the key to Palace's success this season and are they ready for the Barclays WSL?

Speaker 4 Firstly, I say I don't see any problems in the licensing that I can imagine, unless there's a surprise. I think they've been building up to this.
They went full-time, Crystal Palace.

Speaker 4 And a couple of seasons ago, they've definitely been building up for a push to the WSL. And they've got the players in there that can provide a really good platform for that.

Speaker 4 I think this season they've been relentless. I spoke to Laura after the game yesterday.

Speaker 4 And she said that even when they've had bad weekends, of which they haven't had that many, but even when they have lost, they come back to work and they pick themselves up and they fix the wrongs.

Speaker 4 And as a group, they do it collectively and they fix it pretty quickly. And it means it doesn't become long-running problems, I guess.

Speaker 4 And, you know, when you look at their stats, they scored 55 goals. That is, you know, a good 20 goals more probably than most of the other teams in the division.
And then they conceded only 20.

Speaker 4 So they were miles and away scoring more than any other team in that league. They've got incredibly young, good players.
You know, you look at the likes of Annabel Blanchard,

Speaker 4 Elise Hughes, who is the current top scorer in the league.

Speaker 4 And they've got so much potential going forward. They've come through the ranks, they've played championship football for a long time, whether it be at Blackburn or at Palace.

Speaker 4 And I think they probably are ready now to be given that kind of leap of faith to play that next step of going up into the top division and seeing what they can do up there. And

Speaker 4 I think that there's going to be players coming in and out over the summer, as there always is when a team is promoted right.

Speaker 4 But they've got a really good chance of giving it a really good shot next year in the WSL with the structures around them and especially around the club.

Speaker 7 Yeah, absolutely. Looking forward to them being part of the the Barclays Women's Championship setup.

Speaker 7 Unfortunately, with Reading beating Durham earlier on in the day, it was a result that sadly confirmed Lewis's relegation to the FA Women's National League after six seasons in the championship.

Speaker 7 It obviously comes additionally amongst some significant change at the club with the departure of both their CEO, Maggie Murphy, and their manager, Scott Booth, at the end of the campaign.

Speaker 7 Susie, what impact have Lewis had in their time in the second division? And what what does the future look for a club that has always had equality at their core?

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, huge impact, but not just on the championship, just on like the professional women's game as a whole so far because, you know, they've been involved in all the sort of the discussions around where the league's going and, you know, board level being, you know, Maggie's been on the Women's Super League and Women's Championship board and things like that.

Speaker 8 And they've been really able to put a case for a different kind of football

Speaker 8 and fan ownership and what that looks like and

Speaker 8 the ethos that comes with it to really challenge the like the status quo, which seems to be a drive towards a Premier League mark too.

Speaker 8 So like they've been a really important part of the ecosystem for a good long time and then performed on the pitch for, you know, like really defying expectations for far longer than I think anyone expected, six seasons when you know you've got clubs going into that league with players on, you know, kind of full-time professional contracts in some cases or significantly more than what Lewis have been able to offer in many instances at the very least so like really they've punched above their weight for a significant period of time and I suppose that's a thing that they've got a you know kind of look forward to when they go into this sort of new era for the club in the national league without Maggie at the helm and Scott Booth as manager because the ethos of the club, you know, and like all the things it's built on and the fact that, you know, it's got fan ownership at its core um will hopefully keep it on a good path moving forward even with those departures you would think um it's just how true they can stay to those principles whilst they whilst they go through this change.

Speaker 4 I will just also add that they are very, very special football club.

Speaker 4 I was there yesterday and you know not many clubs would be able to get a record crowd in for a team playing you know what is essentially their second last game.

Speaker 4 They I mean they kind of the odds were against them to avoid relegation in that situation, especially with Reading's result earlier in the day.

Speaker 4 And to be able to get that crowd in to support them, and there was a great moment at the end of the game when they let everyone onto the pitch.

Speaker 4 And, you know, there was the kids running around, and it just kind of was the essence of what the club is about.

Speaker 4 The community club, they're a true community club, and they've been a real blessing to have, I guess, in the league for the last six years. And really, really special.

Speaker 4 And some of my best memories in football, my most fond memories in football, are being at the dripping pan. You know, that game against Manchester United in the FA Cup a couple of seasons ago.

Speaker 4 Such a special day, and they're going to be a big loss to the league. And I hope they can find a way back, and I hope they can rebuild.
But I just wanted to say

Speaker 4 a goodbye to a pretty special football club.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and a goodbye to Maggie Murphy. Hopefully, not from women's football, though.
It's vital that we keep her in the game as much as we can. She's done an absolute incredible job at Lewis.

Speaker 7 A weekend of comebacks in women's and in men's football this weekend. It's been absolutely thrilling, but shout out to Nag, highlighting a big comeback from Wolves in the National League North.

Speaker 7 3-0 down with 30 minutes to go against Nottingham Forest. And Wolves win 4-3, performance of the week, according to NAG.

Speaker 7 Finally, huge congratulations to AFC Wimbledon, who secured the FA Women's National League Division 1 Southeast title on Sunday, securing promotion to the Premier Division next season.

Speaker 7 Well done to everyone there. Right, thank you, Sophie.
A pleasure to have you on.

Speaker 4 Always good to be on.

Speaker 7 Susie, I will see you soon.

Speaker 8 Yeah, hopefully. It's been too long.
I've seen more husbands than you. What's going on?

Speaker 7 I'm missing my Susie hugs. That's it.
And also just finding random cafes for interesting random food and introducing you to

Speaker 7 the weird and wonderful world of being gluten-free and occasionally vegan. Thanks again to Sarah Gregorius, Alex Colvin, and Meryl Van Dongen.

Speaker 7 Keep having your say as well by sending sending in your questions via X or emailing us at women's football weekly at theguardian.com.

Speaker 7 And as ever, a reminder to sign up for our bi-weekly women's football newsletter. All you need to do is search Moving the Goalposts, sign up.

Speaker 7 In today's edition, Amelia Hawkins explores ACL injuries in grassroots football.

Speaker 7 Then on Thursday, Yulia Bellas Trendade writes about the Brazilian players who protested after Santos rehired Clyton Lima despite alleged harassment allegations.

Speaker 7 The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Sophie Downey Downey and Silas Gray. Music composition was by Laura Iredale.
Our executive producer is Sal Ahmat.

Speaker 7 Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google and official mobile phone of Arsenal Football Club, Liverpool Football Club, and the England teams.

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Speaker 7 This is The Guardian.

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