Manchester City v Arsenal: a potential title decider? – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

The Premier League is back and two of the top three play each other on Sunday.

Arsenal go at the Etihad in a huge game at the top.

The Gunners are fresh after several of their stars were just injured enough to miss the Internationals but are back and fit.

City meanwhile are missing Edison, possibly Stones and De Bruyne.

But still, is there that feeling that at the back of your mind they'll still win the title by 20 points, even though that's mathematically probably impossible by now.

Before that game, Liverpool beat Brighton 3-1.

Meanwhile, on Saturday, some big games at the bottom.

Forrest, four points worse off than the last time they played.

Face Palace while Luton go to Spurs.

There's lots of managerial speculation at Old Trafford.

Gareth Southgate, Gary O'Neill being mentioned.

Also today, comedians Rhys James and Mark Smith join us to talk about their brilliant new podcast, Dial F for Football.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hi, Max.

Hello, John Bruin.

Hello, Max.

Hey, Troy Townsend.

Welcome.

Hi, Max.

Nice to have you on, Troy.

As it always is.

With reference to Troy being slightly concerned that he was a late call-up.

When did you get the call for this one, Troy?

Tuesday, I believe.

Tuesday, that's not too bad.

We're not that, that's pretty good.

I normally get a longer run in time, so oh, do you?

Oh, I see, okay, fair enough.

Okay, well,

we're delighted to have you.

Well, at least now you have an excuse ready-made for your shoddy performance.

Oh, he's got it in for me, this guy.

I don't know who he is, but he's got it in for me.

Look, Bumper Saturday, eight games.

It'll be a good match of the day.

And then title race Sunday with Liverpool Brighton, and then Man City Arsenal, game of the weekend, weekend, Claxon.

How big, John, in bigness of games is this, do you think?

Oh, it's big.

It's big.

It's especially big if you're Arsenal.

Yeah.

And that's the key, isn't it?

Because, well, this time last year, they were going for the title, but there were those two games against Manchester City that I think they lost the first one.

And we instantly thought, well, yeah, thanks for coming, Arsenal.

Thanks for taking part and actually being very entertaining, playing very well, but you're nowhere near.

And that was confirmed later on in the season when Manchester City won.

And what stands out most in that game?

Manchester City won so easily that Erling Harland was able to take his hair down and celebrate, if you remember.

Yes.

Yes, that's it.

So

this is the key test, isn't it?

Because...

Like you said in the intro there, you think of that Manchester City, what they do is they run away from the title, they win a title by 20 points.

But if you're Arsenal and you are the third way, because there is Liverpool as well, this is the game that you've got to win.

Now, I sense a bit of confidence among Arsenal.

Also, as you said in the intro, there's a bit of

the old Anfield kidology and some of the way that the players have been pulled out.

Obviously, you mentioned

that list of injuries.

Kyle Walker is the one you've got to add to that list as well.

Yeah, yeah.

And Kyle Walker is such a key player for Manchester City because it fulfills that role of being attacker, attacker,

defender, and also last man defender as well, doesn't he?

When you've got pacey players, Cow Walker's the guy that's going to catch them.

And so you've got this thing where Manchester City, you're probably going to play like four essential centre-backs across the back.

We wonder about Saka.

You wonder whether he'll be fit.

I think he might be.

So, yeah, this is Arsenal's chance.

That's how you've got to look at this game, in my opinion.

Manchester City have been there before.

They've been to the well and back.

They know what's expected in these encounters.

It's all about arsenal which actually troy sets it up perfect doesn't it because you like that the narrative is like everything is in arsenal's favor with the fitness and and

well with the fitness of those players and yet every part of you thinks it's just city turn up and win uh i think this one's a uh yes definitely a different feel about this one i think we've got to add john stones came off didn't he as well So we're not sure about Stones.

Akanji apparently was injured on international duty and so was Nunes.

So

I think Pep might have wanted to have used what Arteta did, which was, you know, pull people out late.

But he's, I was very surprised about John Stones because, you know, he doesn't put a lot of back-to-back games together.

So, you know, to play.

to line up again for England was, I thought, was a bit risky anyway.

But maybe that's one of the tricks it was to make sure you go down in the first 10 minutes and come off early.

You never know.

Listen, I'm intrigued.

You know, when we had City last year knocking long balls up to Haaland for Dubruyner to feed off him and that caught Arsenal out.

I don't think Arsenal will be caught out again.

And as John said, I think there'll be a lot of confidence going into this game for Arsenal.

But straight after the international break, this is the one where you almost can't judge it.

It's very hard to know how those players have.

have you know travelled around the country and then come back and settled into the what will be classed as the biggest game of the season up to now i'm sitting on the fence i think arsenal could go there and win um and please i'm gonna wash my my mouth out with soap afterwards but i do believe that they can go there and win that's not on the that's not on the fence as far as i can tell that feels like you're well you've just you've no one has fallen off

no one has fallen off the fence quicker than that moment you just haven't allowed me to finish so because of that

just like on the fence then

but quite equally

quite equally equally if city i've got the team that you know pep would like to put out they, again, because of his

tactical brain, they could also go and steamroll Arsenal and win that game quite, I would say quite comfortably, but they could go and win that game, and then it's all set up for the title, isn't it?

So that's what I'm calling sitting on the fence.

Sorry.

That's okay.

Is that it could go either way.

But I do think Arsenal will have a good chance.

Yeah, just on John Stones, Gareth Southgate.

said because he played twice.

Imagine Pep's not too happy about that.

We measure everything.

and the first game for him wasn't a game that was high-level in terms of the intensity, he said, of playing against that forward

Brazil.

It feels quite intense, doesn't it?

We've done exactly what Holland did with Van Dijk, what Norway did with Haaland and Odegaard, starting them again.

Holland started Nathan Ake again.

It only seems to fall on us when there's a question around that.

And it probably doesn't.

It probably falls on

all these managers.

Anyway, he says, I hate sending players back to their clubs if they are not not fully fit.

Barry, do you, as a neutral, do we feel like we want Arsenal to win this game?

Because

that is more interesting for the title race, or is like a draw the perfect thing, so they're all so close.

Well, I think if you want Arsenal to win, you're probably not a neutral because that's the very antithesis of being a neutral.

And like Humpty Dumpty Townsend, there, I think they might win.

And I kind of hope they do, if I'm honest.

And I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would like to see Arsenal win the title, even if it does mean I will have to put up with bullshit from a number of insufferable Arsenal fans who frequent my local hostelry or else go give up drink or start going somewhere else.

I think it'll be good for the league if Arsenal won it.

I don't think this is a make-or-break game.

Even if Arsenal lose, they're still very much in the title race, but it will certainly be a serious statement victory.

They've already beaten City twice this season, but City are on this 22-game unbeaten run and have won their last eight against Arsenal at the Etiette.

I don't know if that's pertinent or not.

It probably is a bit

insofar as they'll have the wood on them a bit in that.

I would not be at all surprised if Arsenal won this game.

It looks like one of those games Pep might overthink, you know, and,

you know, we shall see that.

Well, you know, that's what we always say when we're talking about previewing games.

Yeah, I've got a couple of ideas of how certain games this weekend might go, but this one I can't say with any certainty, but I would not be surprised if Arsenal won.

Yeah, I just feel like when the team sheets drop, John, and when

all the journalists who are at the game take a screenshot of the team sheets to prove that they're at the game, that'll actually be quite quite significant for this.

Yes, they wipe the crumbs from the Manchester City cake

off the and yeah, and take the photo.

Yeah,

that's it, isn't it?

And then we've got an hour of speculation over what shape Pep's going to put them in.

I mean, Barry says

Pep might overthink it.

I think there's a possibility Arteta might too.

He's become a bit more tactically adaptable over the last year or so.

If you had,

well,

a complaint or you could find a fought in last season, it tends to be that they became a little bit predictable, but they've added dimensions.

Decan Rice obviously is part of that.

And yeah, for players like Deccan Rice, of course,

you know, he came from West Ham.

Okay, he's played in some big games for West Ham.

This is the first time that he would have played in the title decider.

He's played in Euro 2000, so 20, Euro 2000.

Steve's probably wasn't born then.

Euro 2020 final, yeah.

He's played in those get a game of that size, but the real big club games.

This is it, it's a step up for quite a lot of those Arsenal players.

Talking about the confidence thing, if City do

a Manchester City,

you do fear for Arsenal's confidence again draining because it did dissipate so badly last season.

And this is a

lot of faith placed in our tests by the fans, the owners, and there's clearly a real togetherness in the squad.

I mean, you only need to watch the soft-focused Ben White loving that we've all enjoyed over the international break to see that this is a together team.

But was it Steve Archibald?

You know, the team, team spirit is

an emotion only glimpsed in the midst of victory.

It doesn't last that long.

You know, so we'll see.

We'll see.

On the flight home, let's see how well they're getting on.

Saka was...

taken out of the England squad as a precaution.

He was there long enough to launch his own Nando source.

I don't know what the flavour is.

Oh, right, okay.

Saka's Nando sauces.

Gabriel Martinelli didn't play for Brazil.

Jesus wasn't in the squad.

Producer asks: Is Jesus available on Easter Sunday?

It's a good question,

isn't it?

In the afternoon, yes, I think, isn't it?

In the afternoon, yes.

Okay, fine.

Yeah, yeah, by 4:30.

All good.

They'll roll a rock back from the channel.

I'm ready.

Peter Drury's hoping he wins the game, isn't he?

Yeah, he's alright.

He's got a soliloquy ready for that.

Liverpool Brighton Brighton is before that.

And obviously, Liverpool want to win and then put their feet up is

what it's known at, isn't it?

For they can all just sit on a really big sofa and watch the City Arsenal game.

Actually, Barry, I think, you know,

of these two, we expect Liverpool to win, right?

But Brighton's quite an interesting story this season, I think, isn't it?

Out of Europe after getting hammered by Roma, they're eighth.

And they've had a lot of injuries, a lot of sides have.

A decent run would get them some sort of European footballer game.

And, you know, there's always this, there's so many rumours about Deserby being almost sort of second choice for every job that is available.

This is a game I think Brighton might win, or certainly draw.

Liverpool's injury issues.

You mentioned Brighton's injury issues, and they're missing Kyra Matoma, who's a big loss.

Solly March, I think Hinchelwood is out as well for this one.

But Liverpool are missing Matter, Jota, Trent Alexander Arnold, Allison, although they're not really missing Allison that much because Queevie Kelleher is doing a fine job.

Alcantara,

Cheetich,

I think I've mangled that.

And Brighton have a very good record against Liverpool under Roberto Deserby.

Played 4-1-2, drew two.

They're unbeaten.

I'm not saying Deserbi has Jürgen Klopp's number, but he has quite a few digits of it.

And

I

But Brighton have been so up and down this season, but I think a lot of that is down to the fact that they're in Europe and that's taken a physical and an emotional toll.

But they've had, you know, two weeks off now.

Obviously, you know, so the players haven't been subjected to this grind.

And

I, again, would not be at all surprised if Brighton got a result in this game.

Do you side with Barry there?

Do you think Brighton can get something, Troy?

Well, if he called me Humpty Dumpty, me and him are on bad vibes.

I tell you, we are probably on bad vibes at the moment.

Humpty Dumpty sat Humpty Dumpty sat on the fence.

Oh, dear.

I just couldn't really decide.

Look, Brighton's record, recent record, is not great, is it?

I think it's, I don't know, five or six wins in the last 20-odd.

And I take account of what Barry said there about the European adventure that they've been on.

But sometimes it's very hard to get out of a little rut.

So their inconsistency is not great.

And I think Jürgen will look at this and think, you know, know, this is one we need to get over the line because great football that Brighton play, they can be dangerous, they can cause Liverpool problems.

But Liverpool in a good vein.

I'd expect them to win it.

I don't think it's going to be easy, but I'd expect them to win it and, you know, apply the pressure for the game that comes, obviously, just an hour later after that.

So I'm going for a Liverpool victory.

No more sitting on the fence.

I'm going to be clear and precise from now on.

I think of all the people stuck in a rut.

I mean,

Humpty really was

broken, wasn't he?

Anyway, at the bottom, Sheffield United are bottom on 14 points.

Burnley have 17 after they won their last game.

Nottingham Forest now down to 21 points.

Luton 22.

Everton 25.

Brentford 26.

Palace 29.

So Forest played Palace, John, the first game since that point's deduction.

A bit like Goodison after their deduction.

You know, the city ground can be loud.

And you imagine it really, you know, it'll be defiantly loud, won't it, against Palace?

Yeah, I'm going going to be there actually uh i'm looking forward to hearing these howls of outrage from the locals because yeah um ffp uh profit of sustainability there are those who probably don't believe in it but those who probably could look at that case and think

did notting forest get away a bit lightly compared to other people

I don't suspect those that are going to be shouting against the Premier League will share that view.

But I think Forest fans have known this is coming all season.

Four points feels

light-ish compared to what's going on at Everton.

And of course, they've...

They have appealed, though, for the farm.

They have appealed, yeah.

Nick DeMarco, again to the four, Super Casey.

With that appeal,

remember years ago when clubs would they had the thing as the frivolous appeal when players would appeal a suspension to try and to try and try and get more, try and get a game off or

make, or because the appeal went on, they could play in the next match, and then the Premier League would say, Oh, we know your game.

I don't, there's no such thing as a frivolous appeal here.

So, they could end up, they could actually end up with more points, it is said.

Uh, but it's worth a shot on the field.

Uh, well, things haven't been going great

in the legal team, and they haven't been going great in the actual on-pitch team, have they?

It's not been fantastic.

Nuno, that was a curious appointment for me.

Uh, a lot of Wolves fans were very critical when I said, I'm not sure.

And I understand Wolves fans because he did a great job,

but I'm not sure.

I think, like him and Sean Dice, Wad always mentioned Sean Dice.

I think there is, to get out of trouble, you've got to want to play progressive football, attack, attack, almost

attack the day, seize the day, as Gary Neville would say.

And you just...

I'm not sure the football is enough to...

You know, you can't be relying on draws, especially not when you're losing four points in the law courts.

Yeah, but yeah, whenever I see them, Barry, I think, God, you know, Alanga looks exciting, Origi looks like he's sort of got a bit, and Gibbs White is obviously excellent, and Hudson Adoy is playing well.

I sort of feel

they look like they should be really quite good.

They do, and I don't think they should be in trouble.

Even

without the points deduction, they'd still be, you know,

in trouble, in danger of being relegated.

And but we see that a lot.

uh teams that are too good to go down uh often go down and

nottingham forest

you know while they're no world beaters but they should be comfortably mid-table i think and but they're not uh because they ship too many goals um

so

you know christa palace their new manager we we don't

quite know what kind of effect he's going to have, but I'm not sure how many players they've had away on international duty.

But and I should have checked.

That's why we got the silver in the SJAs, Barry.

It's this kind of shocking research.

I was checking other things.

I'll tell you what, I've spent ages checking to see: is there any history of Man City having hiccups right after an international break?

That took up far too much of my time yesterday.

Okay.

And they don't.

The only thing I was seeing about Palace was that, and at least I wouldn't dismiss as it was that Tyrick Mitchell was,

people wanted him as the left back, because obviously England are struggling for this.

Now, he's a good player, but is he international class?

I don't want to do him down because I think he's been a decent servant.

You grimace, Troy.

What's that mean?

Because I actually thought he was, and then he joined England, and since then, his performances have gone downhill quite a bit.

Yeah, I just, he, I thought he was the best left back in the country when he and that includes Shaw who's obviously injury prone and Ben and Ben Chilwa who's also injury prone and he came in and he was playing he was playing out of his skin.

He was a great man marker and he was good going forward and then all of a sudden he got involved in the England squad and I think his performance has dipped quite dramatically.

So I agree with you not now but the potential again is still there because he's only young.

Yeah yeah.

Can I just pick up on the Forrest one if you don't mind?

Please do.

Because

I know you do preview the games, but I'm looking at Forrest's next two games, and they'll be out of the relegation zone very quickly.

They play Palace and they play Fulham, both at home.

There's a lot of teams that will play two games at home or two games away, as we'll pick up in a bit.

But look, they are a decent side.

They are where they are because they haven't got enough points.

It's as simple as that.

And then they've had four deducted and hopefully six by the time that

the

the case goes ahead but

they can chalk out wins and i think those wins have to come from their home games and i think those two home games would be enough to to get them back out of the the zone and looking up looking upwards rather than downwards see when you jump over the fence we jump over the fence at city ground you're in the river trenton aren't you so you are indeed

depending on how far you can jump

uh some good some good loot and buyers there and we'll we'll start with them in part two

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's rattle through the rest of the games then.

So, Luton, just one point above Forrest go to Spurs, who are three points behind Villa with a game in hand in that race for fourth.

How's Andros getting on, Troy?

What's the mood around Luton?

They got that late equalizer, didn't they, last time, Matt?

Yeah, late equaliser against Forrest, and it's a shame because you then want to play the next game really quickly, didn't you?

But then also

the three days before that was the Bournemouth game.

Yeah, less said about that, the better.

Away at Spurs and away at Arsenal is their next two games.

I mean,

yeah, you don't want those, do you?

But actually...

I think they could possibly get something at Spurs.

I'm not saying they're going to win it.

Yeah, I do get something at Spurs if they set up properly, if they are diligent right throughout the game and defensively sound.

Um, Spurs, not very good in the first half of games, are they, but come alive, particularly later on in games.

But Luton are also good late on in games as well, or getting late goals, so that will be interesting.

I don't envy the Arsenal visit, um, and this potentially the Bournemouth from the Forest games, they should have taken more points, but they're there, they're fighting, they're battling, you know, there's a good vibe around the place, um, despite some not so great form recently, but they're picking up the odd point here and there, and they need to stay in the mix.

That's what they've got to do.

So, whatever they can get out of Spurs

will be great.

And then, you know, they visit Arsenal, and yeah, I'm not expecting much from there.

Did they go away somewhere for the break, warm weather training or anything?

Dunstable, yeah, Dunstable, yeah, yeah.

They were working on two things, Barry.

I don't want to give anything away to the listeners just in case.

I'm then I was only wondering where they went, not what they were doing

no no tottenh had a really rough time getting a win at luton early in the season uh i believe that was uh pre the coming of andros townsenden jr to the team but uh yeah it was um it was yeah that was a game it was a piece it wasn't it's james madison magic won that game he comes from us sets up the goal yeah luton could make this tough if if if i mean the thing is that's back in a time time when, hey, this is Luton.

What spirit are showing?

They're no good.

This is a slightly different time.

I think we've seen that there is some quality in the team.

It's whether they can revive that spirit, mix it with the quality that they've got.

And the thing is, with Tottenham, is

as you well know, Max, they can be really great sometimes, but they can spin off the boil quite easily as well.

That's Angeball, isn't it?

I think Ange will have been absolutely furious for the entirety of the last two weeks after that Fulham game.

Well, absolutely, yeah.

You know, not looking at the floor, not looking at anyone.

The floor's been stared out for two weeks solid, yeah.

It would be very arsenal for them to beat Man City and then lose against Luton in their next game.

I'm not sure that Arsenal still exists anymore.

Villa Hose Wolves in that race for top four.

Brentford, who aren't safe, home to Manchester United.

Some interesting managerial links.

I mentioned it in the intro, John.

Garrisongate or Gary O'Neill that Big Sir Jim is potentially looking at.

You do feel that Man United fans will react with quite a sort of flat response, rightly or wrongly, to either of those appointments.

I think Gary O'Neill is not that it's like a coaching, to be part of the coaching team, it appears.

That was the link that I saw.

And Gary Southgate, obviously, as the manager.

Now, what this feeds into

is this,

and I've got to call it high-performance culture that you've got this,

you've got, essentially, you've got Big Sir Jim

doing the call you're calling the shots it's his baby you've got you've got little sir dave you know running the whatever that he does and then you've got your dan ashworths and dan ashworth and gareth self-gate have a close relationship from working with the england teams together and they want a manager who works in that corporate sort of chino clad fashion you know that sort of

you know getting coffee together uh running through a PowerPoint presentation.

And Gareth is that guy, isn't he?

I mean, like, he's he survived at the FA because he's good at that stuff, right?

Yeah, he's one of those people.

What will happen if Southgate comes in, or I mean, Graeme Potter is the other alternative who is, again, a similar, you know, looks good in a pair of Chinos.

They've all got good LinkedIn profiles, is what you're saying.

They've all got great LinkedIn, yeah, yeah.

And so they come in, and what will happen is that won't work.

And what will happen is Big Sir Jim will do what they always do is go for the exact opposite and then you go give it Jose.

Yeah, well you give it yeah, you give it for the new Jose and then but all you need is Big Sir Jim to be his mate.

And if as long as those two get on and but that's that's what will happen because they will try and do it their way, you know, the essentially the Clive Woodward-y sort of thing of more Chinos, is that?

Yeah.

Yeah yeah, more chee more Chinos, more more Chinos,

you know, a a Ted Baker, um,

you know, re loyalty card.

I mean, Ted Baker's pretty bitch.

You know, what's the very expensive jackets that they wear?

I'm not sure.

I don't know where Chinos are.

Chinos sort of go in and out, don't they?

I don't know where they are currently.

Chinos with

the phone strapped to the, you know,

it's that sort of business level of, you know, because you're always on.

You're always on, aren't you?

Yeah.

And maybe in a previous era, you'd have the Bluetooth headset, but you don't really need that anymore because you've got wireless airpods.

You just get the AirPods now.

AirPods are cool now in that sort of set.

But that's essentially what I think Big Sergey's looking at: that type of thing.

There's a lot of sort of sat around circular tables chatting and all that type of thing.

And that's.

I just thought it would be more beanbags.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I don't.

I don't show it.

No, it's not beanbags.

Not bean bags.

Not bean bags.

That's not Chino-style beanbags.

Chino's ride up on a beanbag, don't they?

Yeah, that's true.

It's a bit, that's a bit dot-com-era, really.

I mean, we're now we've sort of moved into, you know, yeah, it's it's all Zoom, it's all, you know, it's, and Gareth is good at that, and so is Graham Potter, and that's what they're looking for.

And I predict it'll be a disaster.

I can't believe I'm on a football pod and I'm talking about Chinos, by the way, as I look through to see if I've got any Chinos at all.

I was going to say, I thought you were just going to wave your leg at a pair of Chinos with a fear.

At the last time we had a conversation, something like this, we got accused of being dinosaurs because we were mocking David Brailsford.

And someone in the comment section under the podcast on the site said, you know, why is Glenn Denning always slagging off Braillesford?

He was

so good when he was in charge of Sky's cycling team and whatnot.

I'd just like to point out that Sky did not dominate the cycling world for 10 years or whatever it was because David Braillesford put duck-down feathers in the riders' pillows instead of, you know, memory foam.

There are other reasons why sky-dominated cycles.

They have the most money, Barry.

I think that's what you mean, isn't it?

That's exactly what I mean.

Isn't all those rumours just slow news week because it's international break?

Well, O'Neill and Steve.

Yeah, I mean,

they said O'Neill, they said O'Neill, and then the next day it was Gareth Sanford's going to bring his whole coaching squad.

So, where does that leave O'Neill?

Is O'Neill going to leave

the steel like in a parochinos?

That's the

that's why Ben White was so furious because Ben White looks great in a pair of.

Well, Ben White looked great in anything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was like, you look ridiculous.

Anyway, look, there are some other games, so we should potentially talk about them quickly.

Bournemouth, Everton, Everton, 25 points, four above the bottom three.

Desperately need something, don't they?

Newcastle-West Ham in the race for Thursday night football and Sheffield United United Fulham and Chelsea Burnley.

I think the Newcastle-West Ham game is quite interesting.

So, Newcastle, they've lost back-to-back against Chelsea, Man City.

They've just lost Fenn Bottman for the season, I think, to a knee injury.

That's a pretty controversial one, isn't it?

Because they played him with the injury and there's questions raised about the medical department.

I think because

he had a knee problem, and then they've played him, and then he's essentially not going to play till

2020.

What year were you in?

Yeah, 2025.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a bad one.

So his absence, you'd think, right, well, this might solve the Dan Byrne problem because Dan Byrne could move into the heart of defence.

Tino Liveramento comes in for him.

But I think Tino Livermento might be injured now.

So you're looking at a Newcastle back for Byrne, Lascelle, Shar and Liveramento, or whoever comes in instead of Liveramento.

That looks very dodgy to me.

Jared Bone up against Dan Byrne.

I mean, it's become a running Joe who will be leaving Dan Byrne trailing in their wake this weekend.

And it's Jared Bone's turn this time.

I think West Ham...

Now, I caveat this prediction with the fact the last time I thought Newcastle might ship a hiding.

They beat Wolves 3-0.

I think West Ham could win this one quite comfortably.

And that would leave Newcastle very mid-table.

Just on Sheffield United Fulham, Arch said, I was hoping Archie would be on to apologise about his stance on Fulham's ticket prices.

Now he's realised it's gone towards subsidising a rooftop bar and swimming pool overlooking Craven Cottage.

The plans on the Riverside Stand do look,

for your average football fan, completely ridiculous.

And the way they've drawn it up, it's like a game is going on, and there's a sort of fancy cocktail bar and a kind of, I don't know if it's an infinity pool, because it's not the right angle, right?

But

like,

it doesn't make any sense to me.

It's cold up there.

Well, it is, a it's chilly but B if like if you wanted to go for like a sort of fine dining experience The last place you would go to would be a Premier League ground when there's a football match on right?

That's just not where you want to be You want to be like in a nice restaurant somewhere if you want to go swimming.

Why do I want to go swimming quite near where Fulham are playing Crystal Palace?

Like I just don't understand.

Why do I need that ambient noise of you know a decent run from Tom Kearney while I'm doing breaststroke?

Whole thing sort of makes no sense to me.

The thing is I was told that there

there was a gym and a swimming pool at the bottom of the stadium as well.

Oh, was it?

Was it?

Is there a swimming pool of both

bottom and top?

It's not a really deep swimming pool just so you can, you know, get fetch a brick in your pajamas and go all the way down.

I don't know.

Did we ever think we'd see the day when Fulham have a statue of Michael Jackson wouldn't be the most ridiculous thing in creative art?

Anyway, we'll see what happens with that.

Chelsea Burnley, listen to Burnley, get a couple of wins.

They, you know, could start getting interesting.

And who knows with Chelsea?

I want to spend some time talking about Vinicius Jr.

Anti-racism campaigners in Spain have called on the country's institutions to do more to crack down on racism in football.

After Vinicius Jr.

was doing a press conference when he was looking ahead to the Brazil-Spain game.

He broke down in tears as he spoke of the systematic barrage of abuse that he's faced at more than 10 Spanish grounds, told reporters that the situation had got worse during his time on the pitch.

More and more, I'm losing my desire to play because people are not punished.

They feel like they can keep saying things about the colour of my skin, try to affect how I play.

I just want to play and I want to be able to go to stadiums without anyone bothering me because of the colour of my skin.

It's really moving

video.

I was listening to Semra Hunter,

who works over there and has been on the pardon, is a brilliant reporter, sort of saying that actually, even now, it's gone beyond where he's playing like there were the sort of songs of racist chanting about Vinicius Jr.

at the Barcelona Napoli game and the Athleti

intergame in the Champions League I mean you know Troy I know we've spoken like this a million times and I don't I don't expect you to say anything new but but I just how did you feel watching that heartbroken heartbroken for a young man whose talent and ability should be everything that we're talking about and

you know he had to answer questions three times, and it got to him.

And I posted something

where it, you know,

this game, you know, the game as it is, and the history of the game always says that you're not allowed to show signs of weakness, you know, because it then means that you're showing the opposition that you're not strong enough, or you're showing people you're not strong enough to play.

I was more than happy with his signs of strength, to be totally honest.

The way that his emotion came out,

you know,

the kind of abuse that he's receiving,

you know, the effigy on the building,

the Athleico-Madrid fans, Valencia fans, and as you're singing about him, and he's not even near the stadium.

And like you said, there, Barcelona and Napoli.

I mean, at what stage

do the Spanish Federation wake up and realize that they have a massive talent within their leagues and they're allowing that talent to effectively say that you know what, I don't know how much more of this I can take.

Anyone watching that video,

well, apart from a few, but anyone watching that video must see that

the impact that it's having on him emotionally, mentally,

is going to drive him away.

And if it drives someone like Vinicius Jr.

away, although he says it, you know, I want to stay at Real Madrid, I want to, you know, this is, if they win, if I leave,

it will mean that potentially other Brazilians, and they've got some great Brazilians there or other black players, will think twice about whether they stay in that league.

And

I don't know, Max, we've spoken so many times, like you said, and I've kind of repeated my words over all the years.

And football effectively is still allowing these people to congregate in their stadiums.

And I had a little bit of a, on another platform, you know, when someone said, well, these are not football fans.

Well, they are.

They're paying customers.

They go into the stadium.

They're standing outside the stadium.

They wear the colours of their their teams and we're still not picking them up they're football fans they're just not the type of football fans that many of us would would like to identify so look i'm i'm you know

sorry i'm even lost for words now it's just unbelievable that it still continues

actually a really good point you make about they are football fans you know because it's such an easy out for anyone talking about this subject to either just say the words tiny minority or you know they're not proper football or whatever it is you're absolutely right but i just don't know what the,

you know, you're sort of looking for solutions, right?

The first thing you should show is total empathy for him.

Do you do you worry that, you know, like you're saying, it is a sign of strength to be, to show your vulnerability, to show how it affects you.

But do you worry that, you know, the people who are abusing him will see that as an

as an opportunity, you know, and go, we have got, we've got to him, you know?

Yeah, I knew where you were going.

Yeah, and something happened on Spain played Brazil, didn't they, on Tuesday, Wednesday night?

And laporte made a remark and i think that's what's going to happen now you know people forget that he is the victim and they're going to start making these little remarks whether it's crying baby whether it's uh i saw you at your in or whatever else and and i think the fans will as well but no one can stop that emotion you know he's been targeted so much and and you know the questioning he broke down no one can stop that emotion that's real that's not pretend and if listen he's such a strong-willed individual as you can tell you know

you're never going to stop.

Nothing will ever appease these people.

So nothing Vinicius Jr.

says or like the emotion that he shows is going to stop these people from targeting him.

So he might as well be himself, show that emotion, go back on the field of play, show his quality.

Doesn't matter what he does, he will still receive the abuse.

And that's why the Federations and FIFA are hiding behind closed doors again.

Even though Vinicius is supposed to be part of their new task force that they've set up,

it just leaves me frustrated and infuriated that

we are here again.

I mean, last May when he was relentlessly abused by Valencia fans and Carlo Ancelotti, after Valencia had beaten Real Madrid, he refused to talk about the game.

He would only talk about the racist abuse

meeted out to Vinicius Jr.

By that stage of the season, there had been nine formal complaints made by Real Madrid to the

La Liga

about the abuse he was getting.

Now, La Liga aren't in a position to punish clubs, but they have to kick it up the chain to

the Spanish Federation or local prosecutors.

You had after that game, Javier Teebas, the guy in charge of La Liga,

he

put out this tone-deaf tweet, more or less insinuating it was Vinicius Jr.'s fault because he wasn't attending scheduled meetings to have the protocol of when teams should walk off or shouldn't or how you know referees issuing warnings and then you've got some newspaper columnists in Spain saying well he brings it on himself because you know other black players don't get that kind of abuse he he brings it on

the guy is getting no support whatsoever I mean he he got sent off for being racially abused you know, in a game.

He has been accused of mocking fans because he dances after he scores a goal you know everything is about him rather than about the perpetrators and it because yeah look they've got a different different system in in spain than what they have here and obviously the prosecutors are involved quite a lot and i think there has been one or two prosecutions when you say 10 times like he's had to experience that and then also people i'm sure he would be seeing on social media that groups of fan, mass groups of fans are singing about him with racial language, racial tones.

the game's failing.

And I'm not just saying Spain.

I don't want anyone to come here and say, well, you're not any better.

I'm not just saying Spain.

That's what I wanted to ask you because whenever we talk about this in a country that isn't the UK,

people will say, oh, well, what about the UK?

And obviously you work in that space, right?

And

it's such a ridiculously sort of broad question to say, you know, what's racism like in football in the UK at the moment?

But like you see it on social media, right?

Totally.

You know that's happening all the time.

Whenever a black player plays badly or plays well or whatever.

I was going to say, Max, we had over the weekend, and Troy helped me with this, we've had the story of Stuart Weber, the former Norwich executive and what he said about five players or black players that the choice of was either make it as a footballer or end up in jail.

Now that is institutional, sort of

someone would think that who's been in such a position of power and it was a well-respected until he said that individual.

Well, you know, as Kick It Out statement said,

what question does that ask you about the way that

black players are seen by people that are making those decisions?

So, we can't in this country

say things are great here because

that attitude can't be an individual's.

And the thing is, John, as well, I mean, you've made that point perfectly.

And we see there's still player-on-player stuff.

There's fans-on-players.

You know, I'm privy to a lot of the incidents that you guys would know nothing about.

And the media do not report on them at all, right down the leagues.

And then in this scenario, I get someone.

I wasn't even on, I wasn't the person that was explaining the situation.

But I get someone that from a station that you two work for

that is more interested and more getting more angry about a comment that I made about the situation.

that Stuart Weber, because I'm in touch with the players, rather than what Stuart Weber said.

So he gets more angry.

Oh, and that Troy Townsend.

And I'm like, that just shows us where we are.

There's supporters and defenders of people and language, and there's those that are outraged.

There's no middle ground here.

You know, the language used is racial profiling.

No more, no less.

I'm not calling him a racist, by the way.

So I never once said that he was a racist, but it's racial profiling.

to defend that

for me is just as bad as the person that has said the words and has used the words.

and I'll probably leave it at that.

Again, we should say it is understood that Weber has either apologised or made approaches to the players he named in the interview.

Um, he had not been in contact with the complete list by Sunday afternoon.

That's the latest we've got.

I must commend, Max.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I must commend Abu Kamara, who's on loan at Nottingham, loan at Portsmouth, sorry, who's one of the Norwich players for the statement that he put out

on Sunday evening.

If no one has seen that, that is a young man who is still finding his way in the game.

He's 19 years of age.

He might get a league medal this year but actually he spoke about the damaging impact of the language but also spoke about you know young black people can be anything that they want to be and maybe we should have focused on that more than the language but it it's out there and if people want to see it they should go and search for it it's an amazing statement well said troy we'll be back in a second

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

We're joined by Rhys James and Mark Smith comedians.

Hey, Rhys.

Hello.

Hello, Mark.

Hello.

Hello.

You've got a podcast that's called Dial F for Football.

It's absolutely hilarious.

Can you tell us what it's about, Rhys, please?

Yes, it is.

It's set behind the scenes at a sports radio station called Total Sport online and on digital.

And basically, a character called Lisa comes into sort of like the let's say fictional, stuffy male, slightly older skewing environment.

And she is a sort of young urban YouTuber.

And so you sort of hear her as she gets on board with, well, she tries to win over this the listener base, which is a little bit, you know, dogs as profile pictures on Twitter, now X, and so on.

And so it doesn't really matter what she says or how she behaves at first, you know, they're going to take a natural disliking to her because it's a little bit different.

And so you hear all the the callers, the mad sort of like, it's a football phoning show.

So you hear all the mad sort of callers, but also the behind the scenes, the producer in their ears telling them what to do and so forth.

The radio station is called Total Sport Mark, which does bear some resemblance to a radio station that Barry and I work at.

And actually that you have done, you did show, you've done quite a few shows at Talk Sport, haven't you?

Was that a fact-finding mission?

Were you sort of like, just, yeah,

were you there because you were interested in being there?

Were you just like, this is great material that I'm getting?

Yeah, it was a recce, really.

A sort of six-year rec-no, it was actually, you know, a producer Tayo Papula.

He was there at Talk Sport for a while as well.

He's done sort of the circuit, lots of football shows, Five Live, and everything you can imagine he's sort of been involved with.

And we worked together on Talk Sport, and he decided he'd like to make a show that sort of parodies Talk Sport, but also, you know, Five Live, LBC, a lot of those sort of shock jock American radio sort of stations.

And he thought, well, he's got enough sort of ammo that he could definitely go ahead with the series.

So he got me and Reese in to write it.

So just to clarify, I'm not the creator.

This isn't my fault.

I mean, there is, but like radio phonings are,

they're totally ripe.

I remember a 6.06.

I think my favourite moment was I think David James had just signed for Bristol City and they lost 3-0 and this guy rang up and went, David James, it was the only day of the season.

He went, David James should be a...

He should be ashamed of himself.

It's a disgrace.

And the guy says, look, was he at fault for any of the goals?

And the guy went, oh, he wasn't at the game.

You know, like, that sort of

sums up, you know, there is something about like that kind of phone in radio that's just so ripe.

But it's largely pointless.

It's largely pointless writing it because the stuff that exists in real life is always going to be madder than the stuff we can ever write.

So, you know, still tune in, but bear in mind that that's the case.

Did that make it harder than Reason?

I think in the first episode, obviously, it's a classic first episode.

You're establishing a lot of characters and stuff like that.

So it's grounded a little bit more in reality.

The first episode, it gets gets a bit more extreme and mad as it goes on because

what it is, as Mark says, what it already is is so mad.

And, you know, there's elements of that sort of radio that's extremely clickbaity as well.

It's not just the callers.

Sometimes, you know, not present company excluded, it's the hosts

who decide to, you know, try and go viral all the time.

So

in order to parody that, you have to go like a step further.

So like there's episodes down the line where a host gets replaced by like an AI robot for an episode.

And then the AI robot learns from from the texts.

So just starts sort of parroting the opinions of the listeners.

And obviously, that plays is very popular with the listeners because they're just hearing what they want to hear.

And then, in order to not lose their jobs, the existing hosts have to try and find a way to destroy that AI.

You know, so it becomes a bit more extreme.

We're not yet there.

Kubrickian.

Yeah, exactly.

We're not quite there yet on actual commercial radio.

But, you know, give it a couple of years.

We're only a little bit ahead of our time.

I wouldn't be surprised.

The thing is, Mark, do you think, I wonder if people who don't live, know know that world think that radio is kind of sort of like well planned out and people sort of know what they're doing.

And I've sat there, I remember at BBC London just turning up to host a breakfast show and they just went, you know, your co-host co-host isn't coming in.

So Dorian from Birds of a Feather is going to be

going.

How is anybody, how's anyone coming up with this?

Like, like, they're totally mad places.

Yeah, I think it's sort of universal in a way.

I think most people are sort of winging it in their jobs and don't really know what's going on.

I definitely fit in that category.

And I think that, like that example you just gave, that happens to people all the time in all their jobs.

No one knows what they're doing.

They're just sort of trying to get to the next break.

And that's basically what I think it is.

It's, we've got 12 minutes to not absolutely ruin my career, and then we'll reset and try again, shall we?

And that's basically what I think radio is and all of life.

Very poignant for a Thursday morning.

Yeah, the show is not as deep as that, really.

And also, I just like to say, I know exactly what I'm doing, and I always have.

But you also like, you can hear, like you say, you hear the the producer in your ear which is just so like

you know obviously this isn't just designed for people who work at radio stations right but it really you know really chimes with me and I just remember I remember one report one producer I was doing uh I was on BBC London and I was like doing the Thames Clipper you know is is getting the boat to work good

and and like I arrived like I got on the boat and I got there like 15 minutes later I arrived and I rang up saying oh look I've got to Westminster Bridge and the producer was like well look we'll come to you in about 10 minutes.

Just just pretend that you're arriving.

And I was like, but like, it's about commuting.

So, like, if I'm bullshitting about being

10 minutes later, that's kind of the problem.

And she went, if you want to be a star, you'll do as I say and hung up.

And I'm like, wow.

This is just fucking ridiculous.

And I think you encapsulate, I think, Reese, you do, you sort of encapsulate that nonsense.

I've only heard the first episode, but like really well of a producer just trying to like tell a presenter how to be or what to say or what not to say.

Yeah, episode one, they're definitely trying to, I mean, that's a line we should have used, actually.

If you want to be a star, you'll do as I say.

It's too on the nose, though.

It's too on the nose.

That's not realistic enough.

Yeah, if that was in a script, everyone would say, oh, this is badly written.

But it is your real life, Max.

That's what's mad about it.

Yeah, there's definitely bits where they, certainly, Lisa, played by Loli Adafope, that character is, they're definitely trying to mold Lisa into something.

So, you know, she's been hired for a specific reason.

So the producer, and she doesn't really know that.

So the producer is in her ear saying like, no, you're here.

You need to disagree.

You know, whatever they say, you need to go the opposite way because it's good, it gets clicks and stuff like that.

So, then you see her having to be inauthentic in those moments.

And,

like you say, do as you're told to be a star.

Lolly, who plays Lisa, she also played Kitty in Ghosts, who's definitely my favorite character.

She's brilliant.

But

if I was to have one criticism of the show, I loved it.

It's that her character gets more feedback from the bosses after one episode than I have had in 12 years years at a certain radio station.

Not that that's a complaint.

I'm very much of the no feedback, it's good feedback, but

yeah,

she's brilliant.

I take the feedback and I don't tell Barry.

I'd say that.

I mean, I would say that in defense of

Truxbox, you know, I've been there, what, 11 years, and I love it.

And actually love the fact that I was just given a blank sheet of paper to do whatever I like.

And they're very open about that.

So obviously there are lots of shows there that I like and there are some that I don't.

And that goes for any radio station.

And it's probably a good radio station.

Tell us which ones are which, please, Matt.

Yeah, of course.

And of course, you've got Hawksby and Jacobs, who you've probably been on to talk about this podcast, right?

And they are like two of the absolute best.

And I remember at Five Live, you mentioned feedback because you're right.

I don't want a lot of it.

Like the show's finished.

I want to go home.

And everyone else does.

I remember doing the late chat Five Live and at one in the morning, right?

This is one in the morning.

Like 10 people walk into a room and start going through the show like section

by item.

I'm like, wow.

What the fuck are we doing here?

Great.

This is ridiculous.

I think it's great.

I can't wait to hear the rest of it.

And I wasn't sure.

I mean, I guess, was there any part of you, either of you, that wanted to be in it?

Because you're both like performers.

We sort of both are.

So I don't know if you

Reese does all the continuity.

I am the voice of Total Sport.

Oh, yes.

That's good.

It's been, I think my voice has been lowered in post.

It had to be, mate.

It was embarrassing.

It had to be, yeah.

I can't quite get there.

I've got a bit of a cold at the moment.

I reckon I probably could get there at the moment, but but um on the day but it's just a classic total total sport fm online on digital really good that's how it sounds so your equivalent of talk sport is the bloke who plays finchy yes yeah ralph inerson yeah

yeah but all of this all of this stuff comes from a place of love like i think we all love talk sport but part of that is knowing what is mental about the place right it's it's sort of yeah being able to identify what makes it a Yeah, a pretty stupid environment.

And talk sport do take the piss out of themselves.

You know, Hawksby and Jacobs have clips of the week every week.

And it's part of that that makes it a really good station, I think.

Mark, are they aware that you're doing this?

No, they're not.

Let's leave it there.

Goodbye, guys.

We'll roll.

Reese, you're a big Spurs fan.

Mark, you're Derby.

Let's start with Spurs.

How do you feel about Ange?

Have you, I mean, I'm totally, but I was brainwashed years ago.

I'm in Australia.

Like, everybody just loves this guy, but I don't know how you feel.

Yeah, my dad claims to be Australian, so I sort of am in the same brainwash category.

He grew up in Australia.

He was born in Wales, but you know, he's multi-identity is that guy.

Depends who he's speaking to on the phone, what accent he uses, genuinely.

I'm fully on board with Ange.

I mean, even when we, you know, losing to Fulham the other week, it was pretty bleak, but I sort of didn't care as much as I would have in the past because there's just sort of like, well, there's something bigger going on here.

That's why watching the meltdown on Twitter and, for example, football phone-ins after a result like that is what Ange has removed is the it must be right now or never-ness of the whole thing, which is what it felt like under Mourinho and Conte, because we knew they would be there for 12 months maximum and then leave us in disarray.

Whereas Ange is like, no, no, no, we could take five years here.

You know, Arteta finished eighth, two years in a row.

So I'm pretty on board with it.

I mean, it's exciting football.

I like the sort of players he's signing.

I like his vibe.

You know, it's nice to be called mate so often.

That's sort of all you want, isn't it?

A trophy would be nice.

Yeah, there'd probably be Celtic fans going, he might not stay for five years.

But you've got to enjoy it while he's there because, you know, he is,

like I think Jonathan Wilson said,

it's just weird having a football manager who talks like a normal person, you know, just sort of is asked a question and then just answers what he's been asked.

It's just, it's almost sort of groundbreaking.

There's only two that do it.

Mark Robbins is the other one.

Yeah.

Mark Robbins and Ange Possikogri are the only two people that actually sound like a normal person.

Yeah, exactly.

It makes such a difference because when Ange said, the moment I was, I was one over pretty immediately, to be honest, but the moment he was asked, what do you think of that VAR call?

Do you think that was offside?

And he said, I've got no idea what the off-side rule is.

That's when I was like, bang, we're in.

We're in.

That's exactly what everyone watching it is thinking.

None of us know what this rule is.

And he agrees.

So he doesn't bother getting involved.

Mark, Derby are second in league one.

You know, four points ahead of Bolton.

Do you have a game?

And how do you, I mean, you've been through the ring here as a Derby fan, right?

How are you feeling right now?

i um i've aged much worse in the last four years than i have since having a child it's it's more stressful it's horrible and this season we're second and we you know we've got a decent chance of going up and i'm i hate it i don't enjoy any aspects of it anymore it's it's some uh i think it's a mental illness i think i remember a few a few months ago there was the nfl game where the buffalo bills were playing and it was like minus 30 and there's pictures of people sat there on their seats with a foot of snow on their laps and i remember thinking that is what it's like to be a derby fan.

They're not there because they want to be there, they're there because they have to be there.

And that's how I felt about Derby since I was a child, really.

And even now, while it's going well, I can't enjoy it because I'm just stressed out all the time.

Um, is that an alright answer?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's been proven that it's not good for you, like, it is not good, it's not, yeah, it's like you should, we should all take up something else.

Like, watching it is like you know, with Cambridge,

you know, just on this absolute terrible run, Gary Monk has, you know, in his three games in Chargers, his last two games, he's let in 10 goals and scored.

Oh, God.

Like, absolutely.

Max, I like what you did there when you went to Mark is you rustled through a piece of paper to see where Derby were in the league table,

which is what all hosts do, isn't it?

It's like, so you're, Max, you're a Cambridge fan.

Let's see.

Uh, you're 15th in the table and

good win today.

This is classic Alan Brazil, isn't it?

Taking it full separate.

He's your next five games.

And he he just does your next five games.

And the guy is, and everybody fucking loves him.

So, you know, it's what you should be doing.

Okay, dialect for football, wherever you get your podcast.

You know, most people listening to this, we presume, know how to listen to a podcast, right?

So, so, you know, if they can listen to this, they can listen to that.

It's great.

And thanks for coming on and talking about it.

Cheers, Rhys.

Thanks so much for having us.

No, that's a pleasure.

Cheers, Mark.

Thanks for having us, Max.

This is great.

Thanks to all of you for having us.

And a real pleasure.

And that's us done.

So I'll just say goodbye to all of you.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

Cheers, troy cheers max thank you john thank you max football weekly is produced by joel grove our executive producer is max songs

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