Harry Kane does the business for Bayern – Football Weekly

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Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. A story of two quite good centre-forwards last night in the Champions League.

Speaker 1 Two for Harry Kane as Bayern Munich ease passed Lazio at the Allianz and two for Killian Mbappe who broke the net like Roy of the Rovers against Rails Sociodad.

Speaker 1 Are Bayern and PSG the kind of sides you want to avoid in the quarter-finals or the side you actually want? After all, whoever you get will have some quite good players.

Speaker 1 In the Premier League Arsenal, yet again, play someone useless. It's starting to become a real habit.
Pray for the Sheffield United social media admin, a 6-0 win, an absolutely brilliant title race.

Speaker 1 In the EFL, a huge late comeback by Ipswich means all the top three win, while two points separate 16th and 23rd in the championship.

Speaker 1 We'll do a deep dive on Gary Monk, the new Cambridge manager, a catalogue of Been in Touch, and the pod overheard in the gents. All that, plus your questions.

Speaker 1 And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 1 On the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning, welcome. Hi, Max.
Hello, Nikki Bandini. Morning.
And hello, Jonathan Faduba.

Speaker 28 Morning, Max.

Speaker 1 Let's start at the Allianz. Then Bayern, three Lazio-Nil, two for Harry Kane, one for Thomas Muller.

Speaker 1 In the end Jonathan like quite a straightforward win for Bayern I guess the game might have been different if Immobile scores his header but he didn't and in the game of reaction headers Harry Kane and Thomas Muller were better than Chiro Immobile

Speaker 28 in the great game of reaction headers of life it was indeed Harry Kane who triumphed strange game to be honest because I thought that

Speaker 28 I actually thought that Lazio might win this match and so I was or get get get through so despite the fact that Bayern were heavy favourites I kind of had a feeling an inkling that maybe but uh lazio could could could pull off an upset just because of the the the really low mood around buyer and the poor morale like it's it's quite a bad atmosphere at the moment obviously with the thomas tuschel situation him leaving i just thought there was an opportunity potentially especially the one nil lead for lazio to do something and they started fairly well to be honest um felipe anderson got in in good positions they kind of they looked quite dangerous on the on the transition uh and had a couple of good openings but they just didn't really ever manage to sort of create anything of of of real note.

Speaker 28 Obviously you just mentioned that the immobile chance was maybe one of their best chances but even that was kind of a deflection off De Lict's sort of head you know that kind of just fell to him and it was a little bit of a difficult chance really.

Speaker 28 And as the game wore on it's Bayern just sort of started to take control of the midfield and there just seemed to be more and more gaps.

Speaker 28 I thought Gwenduzzi, former Arsenal man in midfield there, former Arsenal scuttler, he

Speaker 28 I thought he played quite well actually in the first half.

Speaker 28 And then he began to fade himself and they just from there the energy dipped in the whole midfield i thought of sino and i thought they they didn't have a great game in midfield and gaps started to open up and i think thomas muller was the man who who was there just getting it finding those little pockets of space pavlovic we'll talk about him in a minute a young talent who was really really good and yeah just gradually buying just starts to sort of swallow them up and um despite lirosane missing quite a few chances and good openings they eventually got the breakthrough uh kane doing what he does best i think it was his 50th goal um in european competition a testament testament to him, really.

Speaker 28 You know, I know Tyrion Ree came out with a phrase the other day, didn't he? Saying he's the complete striker. And he kind of proved it in this game, I thought, Kane.

Speaker 28 He was kind of clutch when it counted and sort of just fired a kind of wounded Bayern through, really.

Speaker 28 So I think they came out of it almost unscathed, but I felt as if Lazio could have done slightly better. I don't know if that's maybe being harsh, but I just expected a little more from Lazio.

Speaker 29 Yeah, but I think everyone, because Bayern are a bigger story, because they're bigger,

Speaker 29 everyone's aware of Bayern's low mood. mood, and no one really maybe thought as much about the fact that Lazio also have got quite low mood in the moment.
They've got

Speaker 1 what a miserable game this was.

Speaker 29 They've won three of their last 10 games, they're ninth in Serie A, they've scored 32 goals in 27 games, which is fewer than

Speaker 29 Frozenoana, who are fighting relegation. It's only the same as Salernitana, who are second bottom in the table.

Speaker 29 They're not a team that's enjoying a sparkling moment at all. Uh, the home win was a shock to a lot of people in Italy, to be honest with you.

Speaker 29 Um, I agree with Jonathan's assessment of how that first half went.

Speaker 29 I think that that's kind of the testament to Maurizio Sari, who has done some things right tactically and who I think is making the most of quite modest resources this season.

Speaker 29 But

Speaker 29 I think that

Speaker 29 perhaps

Speaker 29 the game before this Valazio, the 1-0 defeat to Milan, when again they actually played quite well, probably deserved unbalanced play to get a result.

Speaker 29 But the fact that they ended up having three players sent off in a game that was poorly refereed without question, but I think was reflective of where their minds are.

Speaker 29 Because I think when you're on top of the world and things are going well for you, you don't lose your temper, get sent off for mouthing off to a referee as Marisic did in that game.

Speaker 29 Don't lose your temper, get sent off for because a player played to the whistle as Pellaglini did in that game. I think they are...

Speaker 29 going through their own moment, which is perhaps of a less dramatic moment than that of a Biomunich team that signed Harry Harry Kane to win things and might not win anything.

Speaker 1 I mean 33 goals in 33 games for Bayern Barry, Harry Kane is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 And that kind of unquantifiable skill of just being in the right place in a game where he sort of simultaneously didn't do anything and scored two goals. Well that's what he's there to do, isn't it?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, the first goal, good reaction header, as you've said. And the second goal, he was just in the right place at the right time to to score on the

Speaker 1 the follow-up from

Speaker 1 Leroy Sane's shot and

Speaker 1 a lot of people think it's hilarious that he might you know he has gone to Bayern and might win nothing I don't think it is

Speaker 1 and if they don't win anything and it's looking like they won't it certainly won't be his fault you would imagine 33 goals in 33 games pretty good and we saw him last night as well dropping deep deep, which he's so good at.

Speaker 1 As someone who doesn't watch much German football, I'm not sure what to make of this Bayern Munich crisis in Verticom.

Speaker 1 It's like they got to the halfway point of the season with a record number of points

Speaker 1 for a team in second place at the halfway point of the season. That's pretty good.

Speaker 1 Their strikers banging in goals. And they have had injury issues, which I think people don't tend to mention, like Nabry, Coleman, and to a lesser extent Alfonso Davis.

Speaker 1 They've missed nearly 35 games between them. I think that's that's a lot of speed to take out of that team.
Why speed out wide?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 now, admittedly, the results domestically have not been good in recent weeks, but they're in the quarterfinals now. I don't think they're

Speaker 1 good enough to win this competition, but they looked pretty good last

Speaker 1 against limited opposition. Yeah, I mean, I said to Archie on

Speaker 1 TV last night, Jonathan, you know, I sort of said, well, you wouldn't want to play Bayern in the quarterfinals. Sort of generic cliche, and Archie went, actually, yeah, you probably would.

Speaker 1 Cheers, mate. Make me look stupid.
But

Speaker 1 is that, I mean, obviously, like I said in the intro, like, everyone you meet in the quarterfinal is going to be good. Are Bayern the sort of team you would like to meet?

Speaker 28 No, I think Bayer is still quite dangerous, to be honest.

Speaker 1 I agree with Barry.

Speaker 28 I'm still not convinced that they won't win the league. I know they're like 11 points clear or something like that but you know Bayer Leverkusen are nicknamed Bayer Neverkusen for a reason

Speaker 28 and

Speaker 28 I'm not convinced that they're gonna sort of walk it still even though they've developed such an amazing lead.

Speaker 28 I think Bayern when they get to this latter stage of the competition I think experience is always a huge factor and that's something that maybe might go against Arsenal, although those words might come back to bite me in the sense that I think Arsenal are one of the favourites in my opinion in terms of how they're playing.

Speaker 28 But I think that the lack of experience maybe they have is something that goes against them. I think it's the opposite with Bayern, where they've been there and done it.

Speaker 28 And most of their players know what they're doing in the latter stages of this competition. Thomas Tuchel knows what he's doing in the latter stages of this competition.

Speaker 28 So even though there is that kind of

Speaker 28 drama behind the scenes and them looking for a new manager and all that kind of thing, I don't think they're there to be underestimated. I think at the back, they're still not convinced.

Speaker 28 Obviously, Delicht and Dyer last night played, and

Speaker 28 you know dire in the champions league semifinal would be an interesting watch or quarterfinal depending who they play and if they can get through um but you know you've got the likes of kimich musi alazon you know is such a top talent um sane even though he hasn't scored i think in 1920 games is it now he's still quite dangerous um and as you said as as barry mentioned there's there's players to come back like navmuri who came off in the latter stages and then you've got kane so i think they they're still quite a dangerous team i don't think you'd want to play them but it's not vintage buying, is it?

Speaker 29 I just think on that, on the Dyer and De Lict thing, well, I sort of am with you that you like read Eric Dyer and you think Eric Dyer

Speaker 29 in the team that's trying to win the Champions League. But I actually think you need to give him credit last night, right?

Speaker 29 Because the Sliding Doors moment of this tie is Gilly Mobila missing that header when it's still 0-0 on the night. Could have put Lazio Tunnel up.
And it was Dyer who got the touch on that ball over.

Speaker 29 And then it's De Lict who's volley in is headed in for by Thomas Miller on the second goal. So actually, both of them were far more impressive than Kim and Upumakano were in the first leg of this tie.

Speaker 29 So actually, that partnership, well, I get what people don't like about it on paper. I get there's a lack of pace there.
I think it performed really well in this tie.

Speaker 29 Delect's kind of an interesting one in this tie specifically because...

Speaker 29 He has this relationship going back with Maurizio Sadi. He says that Saddi was the manager who made him want to go to Juventus when he went to Juventus in the first place.

Speaker 29 He's always said that Sadi was a manager who helped him come on a long way.

Speaker 29 Lict's an interesting one.

Speaker 29 I think when you look at his career and remember how excited everyone was about him at IAX, I think that perhaps people are a little bit too quick to check him on the scraph heap.

Speaker 29 On paper, when you go through that team, it's a pretty good team. And when

Speaker 29 Archie talks about all the reasons you shouldn't fear them, I get it because

Speaker 29 yes. Manchester City, different category.
Arsenal's form completely different. Intel, in my opinion, are playing much better football.

Speaker 29 But when you go through that 11, you think, okay, there's quite a lot here.

Speaker 29 And frankly, without wanting to do too much of the Anglo-centric banging the drum, frankly, even if they're not that good, if you stick Harry Kane up front and he's scoring 32 goals a season, that makes any team scary.

Speaker 1 Jonathan, you wanted to touch on Alexander Pavlovich, who I didn't know a lot about. And, you know, Bayern wanted Jao Polinia.

Speaker 1 They've been trying to fix that holding midfield role. I thought he looked really quite good last night.

Speaker 28 Yeah, he's going to be a player to watch. I thought thought he was fantastic last night.

Speaker 28 Played in that sort of central midfield role, which was quite a brave decision, I feel, from Toto in the sense that they've got Kimmisch there.

Speaker 28 And, you know, they could definitely have jeeped the squad around a little bit and had Kimmisch in midfield.

Speaker 28 But I think Pavlovich is going to be a player that a lot of people will look at in the future. He's come through Baynes, sort of U-teams.

Speaker 28 He's, I think, of Serbian descent, if I'm right in saying, but he's sort of a German, you know, he's from Munich, basically.

Speaker 28 So he's kind of one of them and he's one of their own in the Harry Kane sense. And yeah, he's sort of a holding midfielder who just keeps things ticking in possession.

Speaker 28 Really good distribution, good touches. I thought he'd just put in a really mature performance.

Speaker 28 And in that midfield, I thought the key to the match was Muller, the way he operated the space and just found, like I mentioned before, those pockets around Luis Alberto, Vicino, and Gonduzi.

Speaker 28 And I thought that was the key to it. And Pavlovich there holding along with Goretzka was really important to that.
And I think for a 19-year-old, it was really mature performance.

Speaker 28 And I think he's definitely someone to keep an eye on in the years to come.

Speaker 1 Best part of the game, Barry, was clearly the referee falling over, trying to

Speaker 1 get out of the way of the ball.

Speaker 1 I was thinking, you know, I think Guy Mowbray was doing the international commentary, and he was saying, you know,

Speaker 1 it's just something about a referee that makes them look so uncoordinated.

Speaker 19 I mean,

Speaker 1 is it that they are generally uncoordinated, or it's just juxtaposed with the fact that they are always surrounded by lots of incredibly coordinated people?

Speaker 1 And so it kind of looks like they might actually be, you know, we'd all look completely uncoordinated if we were surrounded by 22 elite athletes. Crikey.

Speaker 1 This is not something I've given a lot of thought to. I wouldn't have said

Speaker 1 referees generally look uncoordinated. I mean, if you watch referees,

Speaker 1 in the same way,

Speaker 1 track cyclists just turn left for a living. You know, that's their entire raison drecht, just turn left.
Just keep turning left until it's time to stop.

Speaker 1 Referees just run in diagonal lines all the time, don't they? I suppose if you're constantly running in diagonal lines, if you have to,

Speaker 1 for some reason, adjust your stride pattern or run in some direction that isn't diagonal, then you might trip over your own feet or something.

Speaker 1 Have we had a ref on Strictly Come Dancing yet? I mean,

Speaker 1 Klatt is all the way there, isn't he?

Speaker 1 That's a shoe in there.

Speaker 29 Mark Clattenberg's on the revived UK Gladiators. He is.

Speaker 1 It's low-key, really good telly. I've really been enjoying it.
Yeah. Oh, is it really good? There's no shame in enjoying gladiators.

Speaker 29 It's really good, like, just silly telly, and they're doing it well, and it's very nostalgic for those of us who are old enough.

Speaker 1 I would argue it's very good, telly. There's a lot of snobbery around television.

Speaker 1 Gladiators is very good. Excellent.

Speaker 1 Russell says he'd had one PSG, two PSG, three, then 4-1 on aggregate. As with all things, PSG, it was all about Kiri and Mbappe.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 that opening goal, he just burst the net. Not quite, Jonathan, in the way you want to burst the net, like with the ball going through the net.
It was more like, oh, what's this delay? Is it VAR?

Speaker 1 Oh, actually, just one of the little hooks has fallen off the net. But it is still bursting the net, isn't it?

Speaker 1 Which is impressive, an impressive feat.

Speaker 28 It counts as a net burster, definitely, but not, yeah, like you said, not in the sense maybe.

Speaker 29 I love the idea of the second advanced statistic.

Speaker 1 Did it break the net?

Speaker 29 And like someone's there measuring to make sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we can count that.

Speaker 1 Actually, on a footballing board, I think what's interesting is that ability that he has. And I'm stealing what Craig Foster said to me, I'll tell you, but it's true.

Speaker 1 Like, there are those players who make the defender stop. And then the defender, you know, they stop running.
So the defender has to stop.

Speaker 1 And then the defender's screwed because they're never going to start running as quickly as Killian Mbappe does.

Speaker 28 I don't really know what to say about Mbappe anymore. He's just too good.
I love watching him.

Speaker 1 I love...

Speaker 28 He just makes me enjoy football every time I watch him. And yeah, like you said, he's got that just ability to stop defenders in their tracks.

Speaker 28 The angle was ridiculous.

Speaker 28 The way he received the ball, and sort of just like, you know, it's a difficult goal to score that. And the way he finishes it with such power as well.
I love every, I love his celebrations.

Speaker 28 I love just his swagger. Like, I think I can't wait to see him at Realmogen, to be honest, if he does go.

Speaker 28 Hopefully, I'm not speaking out of turn there to any PSG listening fans. I think they know.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know this is breaking news to them.

Speaker 28 I just can't wait to see him on a bigger stage, to be honest. As much as I love French football myself, I think that he does need to take that next step.

Speaker 28 And he's putting in these performances in the Champions League, but he's got sort of Barcolo, who I really think is a really good young talent next to him, and Dembele, but it's not quite the level to win the Champions League, I don't think.

Speaker 28 And I'd be stunned if they were to get to, you know, say the final, for example, PSG, even with Mbappe.

Speaker 28 I think he does need that stage. He's deserving of it.
He's obviously joint top goalscorer in the competition now alongside Kane with six goals.

Speaker 28 And yeah, I mean, what more can you really say about Mbappe? He's class. And in the end, they just had too much for Real Sussy Lad, who have done quite well to get to this stage.

Speaker 28 But yeah, Mbappe is just

Speaker 28 too good for Rails Ossidad and the defenders that they tried to stop him.

Speaker 1 Since that announcement was made, Luis Enrique has sort of been flexing his muscles. As far as Mbappe is concerned, he dropped him for a game immediately after he announced he was was off,

Speaker 1 took him off when they were losing the game after that, and then hooked him at half-time in a scoreless draw against Monaco. So you could have had a Sulky Mbappe

Speaker 1 for last night's game because I would imagine he isn't particularly pleased with this treatment he's getting from his manager.

Speaker 1 But he was pretty unplayable, wasn't he? He was outstanding. Yeah,

Speaker 1 in that game against Monaco, he emerged from the tunnel after 48 minutes and he didn't sit on the bench with his teammates. He went and sat in a box with his mum and agent.

Speaker 1 I mean, I stressed to say, not in a box.

Speaker 1 That would be really good if he just climbed into a big cardboard box. Literally tremendous.
Pulls the flaps closed over his. It reminds me of a great soccer AM sketch, if any of them were,

Speaker 1 where

Speaker 1 I came up with the idea of teal or no teal. And we built a massive, one of those massive red boxes, a deal or no deal box, but human size, and put Sean Teal in it.

Speaker 1 And then I can't even remember what the premise of it was, but at one point, Sean Teal burst out of a box.

Speaker 1 Anyway,

Speaker 1 those were the days. I enjoyed it

Speaker 1 if no one else did. I'll be honest, Max.
I've heard that story many, many times. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm sure have heard it. It's still good.
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
I've got no news stories, have I?

Speaker 29 This isn't a box that I was just checking. Thomas Tuchel apparently broken his toe in his pre-match.

Speaker 29 Whenever we're going back to Bayern, there's a story going that Thomas Tuchel broke his toe in his pre-match

Speaker 29 team talk because he was kicking the door, apparently.

Speaker 1 Oh, what, just when he was trying to G up the players?

Speaker 29 Perhaps successfully, given the result, but yes, apparently.

Speaker 1 But I mean, the hard thing about doing that is, you know,

Speaker 1 if you're trying to g them up, you can't like hop around after you've broken your toe. Can you? You have to, like, maintain the level

Speaker 1 and like pretend pretend it doesn't hurt. Whereas if I broke my toe, I'd just be writhing around on the floor in agony.
Oh, that's excellent.

Speaker 29 Does someone give a pre-match team talk in the Stan Studio? Did one of you or Fawz or Boz get together and?

Speaker 1 No, I mean, it's a bit like this. You know, it's a bit like the pod.

Speaker 1 What we do is we just tell stories that we wouldn't tell on air about various people and then just start.

Speaker 1 I mean, I guess... With TV, there's slightly more time pressure, isn't there? Of beginning when you're meant to fall on air, as opposed to this this sort of this nonsense.

Speaker 1 Where, Nikki, where do you have PSG in those would you like to face him in the quarter finals? Quarter finals is normally around when they just completely implode.

Speaker 29 Yeah, it's funny because I was just saying that about Harry Kane and just the idea that even if the team isn't playing that well, having to deal with a striker like Harry Kane is an issue.

Speaker 29 And it feels like the same story for Bayer Munich, sorry, for Paris Saint-Germain with Mbappe. And perhaps it feels like the same story if Barcelona go through.

Speaker 29 Barcelona in the first leg of their tie against Napoli were not very impressive.

Speaker 29 But then Robert Lewandowski is Robert Lewandowski and can score goals like that and and I think that perhaps is a defining characteristic of a few of these teams that haven't looked at their best this season is you as long as you've got players who can resolve matches you've got chance to to win matches and

Speaker 29 to me there's there's a clear top tier in this competition which is Manchester City, Real Madrid.

Speaker 29 Maybe it's just those two.

Speaker 29 I think Intech can belong in that group personally, but until they prove it, I suppose people will question it they were in the final last season i'll keep reminding everyone then uh then arsenal absolutely domestically the quality is there but uh the the champions league experience is the one question and then i think i put everyone else in in the category after that all right that'll do for part one part two we will discuss arsenal uh and their tight victory at brammel lane

Speaker 3 HiPod fans of America, Max here. Barry's here too.

Speaker 1 Hello.

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Speaker 1 A proper football journalist, mate.

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Speaker 1 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So the Premier League table, the top three, looks like this.
Liverpool played 2763 points. Man City played 2762 points.
Arsenal played 2761 points.

Speaker 1 It's absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 1 That's because on Monday night, Arsenal went to Sheffield United and won 6-0.

Speaker 1 3-0 up after 15 minutes. It was brutal.

Speaker 1 Players, you know, fans fans leaving the stadium or at least going off for a pint after 15 minutes producer joel says it was like putting fifa on the easiest setting or sensible soccer or kickoff two or eminent hughes international soccer depending on your age again uh i i i come to you nikki as an arsenal fan you just you just beat another team that aren't any good you keep doing this don't you I know it's quite good, isn't it?

Speaker 1 It's quite enjoyable.

Speaker 29 It's brilliant, obviously, but it's really, really impressive football, as well as being very enjoyable as a fan. And there's so many bits in it to get excited about.

Speaker 29 I mean, I think the name everyone is talking about the last couple of days is Kai Havertz, because think back to the beginning of the season and what a sort of

Speaker 29 universal panning that signing was getting for 60 million. Everyone was going, oh, what a terrible decision.

Speaker 29 What a waste. How is he justifying that? But

Speaker 29 really, really...

Speaker 29 smart centre-forward play in these last few games, not just scoring goals, but the leg pull back to let Odegaard score is getting a lot of love on Twitter as well, and I think rightly.

Speaker 29 It's very pleasant and goal difference could matter when you've got three teams as close together as that so it doesn't hurt.

Speaker 29 In the end though I still sort of feel like this title running is going to be decided by the head-to-heads that are coming up and not just directly with each other.

Speaker 29 I think all three teams have still got to play Tottenham and it's hard to believe that Tottenham won't take at least a couple of points off one of those teams that they're capable of it.

Speaker 29 So there's bigger games that are going to decide things. You can't ask for much more than this because it's not just winning the games.

Speaker 29 It's when you are able to take that initial burst and sink a team within a quarter of an hour, not much more. It allows you to manage your energy.

Speaker 29 It allows you to not burn yourselves out and it gives you confidence that we'll carry into those other games.

Speaker 1 Ellis James writing, I actually think it's very healthy and cool that Arsenal will win every game 6-0 and Manchester City will still win the league.

Speaker 1 But they were, I mean, it is, it is, I mean, it's just a weird quirk, I guess, that Arsenal have come up against sides that haven't been playing well. But obviously, they are making them be bad,

Speaker 1 but they were scintillating, Barry, in this, the opening 15-20 of this game. I think you're giving them too much credit there, Max.

Speaker 1 Sheffield United are perfectly capable of making themselves look bad. They don't need Arsenal's help, as they have shown in recent games.
They seem to have

Speaker 1 hatched upon this wheeze of the old Manchester City scoring from a pullback goal that, you know, that's that's City's goal really, but Arsenal

Speaker 1 scored what was, I think, four of them, or if not five in this game. It was so long ago on Monday night, I've forgotten the goals exactly, but brilliant performance.
They just roared out of the traps.

Speaker 1 Rights had a chance, Saka had a chance, Grubich had to make a save, Martinelli had one cleared off the line, I think, and just Sheffield United were under the cosh from second one.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it was interesting that after the game, Martin Odegaard was talking about all the great work Arsenal do when they don't have the ball, which I thought was odd because they seem to have it all the time in that game.

Speaker 1 Both he and Michel Arteta stressed that Bramal Lane is a very tough place to go,

Speaker 1 which it really isn't.

Speaker 29 For Sheffield United.

Speaker 1 It really isn't a tough place to go. This season, Sheffield United have played 14 league games there and lost 10 of them, drawn to 1-2

Speaker 1 goals for 12 goals against 42. But luckily...
for Sheffield United fans, it's not a very difficult place to leave, and lots of them did leave

Speaker 1 from the 15th minute on.

Speaker 1 But they were appalling, but, you know,

Speaker 1 Arsenal were.

Speaker 1 I think Sheffield United could play their best and would still have got a good hiding in this game. It did feel, Jonathan, like

Speaker 1 an elite Premier League team playing a League One side in the FA Cup. But you think maybe there'll be an upset and very quickly there isn't.

Speaker 28 I think that's even

Speaker 28 possibly an insult to League One teams. League One,

Speaker 28 the way they play.

Speaker 28 I mean, the thing with with Sheffield United is that you could take the game in isolation, but you'd only have to go back two weeks to when they lost 5-0 home to Brighton, and fans were leaving after, I think, 30 minutes.

Speaker 28 Go back a few more weeks, and they lost 5-0 home to Aston Villa. I think fans were leaving after about 30 minutes.
I don't think the fans have got much value for money for those tickets at the moment.

Speaker 1 They seem to be... We're getting a lot of goals, aren't they?

Speaker 28 They're seeing a lot of goals, but yeah, I don't know about the

Speaker 28 sort of leaving after 20 minutes thing. Maybe that's don't go.
It made me think after this game that is this just a year where the promoter teams are struggling and not having as good a season?

Speaker 28 Or is this an indicator of a growing gap between the championship and the Premier League?

Speaker 28 And I think I tweeted it and a few people. angrily came back to me and said that I'm talking nonsense and that basically it's just a bad season and that obviously doesn't sound like Twitter

Speaker 1 or Exeter

Speaker 28 just basically saying that Ipswich are much better than Burnley were which I'm not sure because Burnley walked the championship last season with more than 100 points.

Speaker 28 So the opinion was maybe this is just a bad year. But I'm not sure if it is a bad year.

Speaker 28 And I think there is a discussion, and this goes around the regulator as well, doesn't it? The independent regulator, and the conversations around TV money.

Speaker 28 And there's a lot of behind the scenes talk at the Premier League at the moment about

Speaker 28 the

Speaker 28 bigger six teams wanting a bigger slice of the pie. and the smaller teams kind of fighting to continue to get that slice of the pie and the championship and the EFL negotiations.

Speaker 28 I think there's a lot of just tectonic plates shifting here. And this game felt like

Speaker 28 it sat into that dynamic a little bit, in my opinion.

Speaker 28 League Art is an example of a league that recently went from 20 to 18 teams.

Speaker 28 And I just wonder if, although I don't think it's going to happen, because obviously the 14 teams that need the majority probably wouldn't vote for this.

Speaker 28 But I just wonder if there's a... bigger argument for an 18 team Premier League these days, which is not something I personally favour.

Speaker 28 But if you look at Sheffield United's revenue, for example, 67 million revenue in 2022 versus Arsenal's 369 million revenue in 2022.

Speaker 28 And there's an argument, there's a debate at the moment that Arsenal deserve more, even more revenue from the Premier League.

Speaker 28 The parachute payments thing, which means that obviously, if you look at the championship now, you've got Leeds, Southampton, you know, the relegated sides are kind of apart from it, which obviously it looks like the relegated sides are fighting to come back immediately.

Speaker 28 I just wonder if there's a bigger discussion to be had here, maybe, around where the the gap between the Premier League and the championships going and is that becoming a worry?

Speaker 28 Or is this just a one-off, bad year, write it off and carry on type thing? I'm not sure, but that's the one thing that it made me think. Because

Speaker 28 it's not just that Arsenal are really like, Arsenal are really good, don't get me wrong, and they've been fantastic in the last three away games, obviously.

Speaker 28 I think it was the Brighton game really that made me think with Sheffield United, like, this is a bit you know, Brighton are are a good side, but this is, you know, they really took tore them apart as well.

Speaker 28 So I don't know, it's an interesting debate.

Speaker 29 Does reducing the teams help that issue, though, with the prize money?

Speaker 29 Because with the revenue, because Sheffield United will make more than 100 million in prize money this season, even if I'm finishing last.

Speaker 29 So, this season, even going down, will be financially better for them.

Speaker 1 I mean, I just wonder if you, if you sort of think about

Speaker 1 in the not too distant past, clubs that are really well run, and clearly you have to be really well run. And I think Sheffield United haven't been, haven't they?

Speaker 1 If they sold two of their best players before they came up, they'd have a lot of lone players. But if you look at, say, Brentford and brighton and bournemouth

Speaker 1 because that's quite a long time ago i guess that there is the if you if you you do have the potential to establish yourself and then become one of these you are a premier league regular it doesn't mean you'll stay in the league for that long so you know there are examples of teams that have managed to sort of bridge that gap somehow i'm not i'm not suggesting personally that it should happen like i'm just saying i think there is a i just think there's a debate in the moment about the structure of the premier league and the championship and if you look at the sort of fixture it also plays into the whole fixture debate about

Speaker 28 the bigger teams think they're playing too many games or they want to be able to play in like the FIFA Club World Cup, which is being expanded. So there's more and more games.

Speaker 28 I think something's going to have to give at some point. Either maybe the bigger sides stop playing in maybe, I don't know, the League Cup or they...

Speaker 28 They figure out a way of doing something with the FA Cup. Obviously, they're trying to reduce the amount of games there.

Speaker 28 But I think the FA Cup's so important to, like, for example, the non-League Pyramid and just the whole football pyramid that I feel like the FA Cup, like abandoning replays.

Speaker 28 I don't think personally that's a good idea um for the health of the whole game but just because of the way you know a maidstone can play a Coventry or you know get to the sort of last latter stages of that competition and and and it can save them for 10 years really in terms of the revenue they can make but I just wonder if like that might be something that the premier the bigger Premier League clubs might be thinking like do we do we need to have these extra sort of four games per season maybe where we can

Speaker 28 instead have a preseason you know a mid-season competition and extend our break in Dubai like Arsenal did and and look so fresh from so yeah just just an interesting conversation I think it's something that is being talked about behind the scenes around maybe the big teams should just be less greedy

Speaker 1 and I think if that's if someone just said that to them

Speaker 1 I think they'd all say oh that's a good idea um just one more bit on Sheffield United feel Barry for the social media admin half-time like what do you do when you're 5-0 down and they he he or she put like a picture I think it was Gustavo Hama kicking the ball really big picture with quite a small nil five.

Speaker 1 I wondered if they could have made the font absolutely minuscule, like eight, eight. You know, when like, it's just like too small to read.
Like, what are you meant to do?

Speaker 1 But I did enjoy just watching all they did was the goals and nothing else. Like, I think a couple of substitutions.
There was no good chance here.

Speaker 1 I mean, there wasn't, but like, I think Chevy Knight had a chance later on. No mention of it.
Just... played it with a very straight bat.

Speaker 1 It's such a funny position to be in when you're the, you know, come on, lads, here we go.

Speaker 1 Talking about the top of the championship, as you said, yeah, the three relegated sides, Leicester Leeds, and Southampton,

Speaker 1 are in the top four, along with Ipswich Town, who had a brilliant comeback against Bristol City. They were 2-1 down,

Speaker 1 but scored in the 80th minute, missed a penalty in the 86th, got the winner in the 89th minute.

Speaker 1 Leicester stopped the rot after three defeats in a row with the one that winnered Sunderland, Jamie Vardy,

Speaker 1 scored and was angry about it, which is some good Jamie Vardy.

Speaker 1 Sunderland had a big shout for a penalty late on, but the referee waved away the protests if you played championship manager 93 you'll know uh leeds beat stoke 1-0 uh dan james scored that um stoke had a player called dan pearson sent off and the leeds co-comms uh called his second booking absolutely silly which was a really great description just it doesn't seem to be english but i really enjoyed it um southampton home to preston tonight the bottom of the championship is absolutely brilliant um sheffey wednesday were on this brilliant run.

Speaker 1 They are 23rd with 38 points. Stoke have 38.
Huddersfield have 38. QPR have 38.
Birmingham 39. Millwalk

Speaker 1 have 40.

Speaker 1 I didn't really mean that.

Speaker 1 Blackburn have 40. And Plymouth have 40.

Speaker 1 I don't have a question, Barry, but just

Speaker 1 it's going to be one hell of a last day of the season. Well, I'll give you a stat, Max.
I love this.

Speaker 1 Sheffield Wednesday have won five of their last six games games and have not moved a single place up the championship table. Amazing.
That's amazing. Isn't it? It's remarkable.
I was watching.

Speaker 1 I didn't realise. I'm not sure how I missed this, but their manager is this 34-year-old German chap called Danny Roll,

Speaker 1 who took over from Cisco Munos in mid-October. uh previously an assistant at rb leipzig southampton bayer munich i think he was involved in the germany setup.

Speaker 1 So, you know, he's young German, doesn't have spectacles, but he does have one of those kind of boy band haircuts where you bring the sides forward.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's nice. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You're really doing the actions there, which is.

Speaker 1 But I was listening to or watching his interview after their latest victory, and

Speaker 1 he's very German, you know,

Speaker 1 speaks

Speaker 1 all this,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 he occasionally breaks into sort of Yorkshire. So, you know, German, German, German.
Massive, massive, massive win.

Speaker 1 But yeah, he seems to be doing a right good job there. And as I say, five won five of their last six, but haven't moved a single place up the table.

Speaker 10 But they are now only in the relegation zone on goal difference and on a very upward trajectory.

Speaker 1 So they play leads at at Hillsborough on Friday in what's a core, could be a corker of a game. And he was urging all the Wednesday fans to sell out Hillsborough and, you know, turn it into a furnace.

Speaker 1 Good stat, Barry. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Not applicable. He says, surely Monk will be a great fit at the Abbey.
Or is it a case of out of the frying pan, into the fryer? He says, really good. Yes, Gary Monk, the new Cambridge manager.

Speaker 1 Interesting. He hasn't been in a job for quite a few years.

Speaker 1 Very funny seeing unimpressed Cambridge fans with a man who took Swansea to eighth in the Premier League. I think he beat Man United homing away and Arsenal homing away in a season.

Speaker 1 What exactly do you want? Like, who are we going to get? Like, Max Allegri? He's going to wander into the Abbey. Anyway, he might be great.
He might be terrible.

Speaker 1 Judging by social media, he is both utterly brilliant and a snake to be watched out. Watch out for him.

Speaker 1 He's a snake. That's what people tell us.

Speaker 1 Anyway, good luck, Gary. In Monk We Trust.

Speaker 1 And that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll begin talking about Paul Pogba.

Speaker 3 Hi Pod fans of America. Max here.
Barry's here, too.

Speaker 1 Hello.

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Speaker 1 Workday go.

Speaker 1 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's talk about Paul Pogbert.

Speaker 1 He said he's sad, shocked, and heartbroken after being handed a four-year ban from football for a doping offence that could signal the end of his career. He'll be almost 35 when the ban ends.

Speaker 1 He said he'd appeal his

Speaker 1 verdict to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and that the full story was not known.

Speaker 1 He was provisionally suspended by Italy's national anti-doping body, Nado Italia, at a tribunal in September last year.

Speaker 1 He tested positive for a banned substance that can raise testosterone after a victory at Udinese on the 20th of August. A B sample confirmed the positive positive result in October.
And

Speaker 1 it just feels, Nikki, like

Speaker 1 for how brilliant he was at Juventus the first time around,

Speaker 1 that it's just a shame that this is where it appears to be ending.

Speaker 29 I

Speaker 29 will always have the first version of Pogba as my memory of Pogba. And I think that people's ideas of who Paul Pogba was as a footballer are going to be defined by where their attention is.

Speaker 29 And that's probably true for all footballers, I suppose.

Speaker 29 But especially because of how it appears to be ending and worth stressing that Pogba still is fighting his case and believes that there's been a miscarriage of justice here, is going to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, says that there's things he can't talk about that will come out.

Speaker 29 But

Speaker 29 that first bit in 2012 where he arrived at Juventus, I think just to to remember the context of it, you had Antonio Conte there, who is not one to gamble on young players and take risks, who has a midfield of Andrea Pierlo, Arturo Vidal, and Claudio Marchesio, who are all brilliant footballers and also all doing exactly what Pierlo and what Conte wants them to.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 29 Pogba was still so good that he forced his way in, that he had to start. And I think he was astonishing back then.
Some of

Speaker 29 the passes that he played were

Speaker 29 right alongside Andrea Pierlo, showing Andrea Pierlo up almost. They were as good as Pierlo as they were absolutely showing that same range of passing while combining it with

Speaker 29 the motor to get up and down and play box to box. He was really a dominating, dominating figure for a team that was at the beginning of that run of Juventus' titles.

Speaker 29 He won four in a row there before moving on.

Speaker 29 And he was at the center of everything. He was a a brilliant footballer for Juventus.
He was a World Cup winner for France.

Speaker 29 I know that things didn't go the way everyone wanted it to at Manchester United, but I think even at Manchester United, there were certainly at least chapters that

Speaker 29 showed off that talent.

Speaker 29 But I think when he was at his best, when he was enjoying himself, and I always think about that during that Juventus era, he was really good mates with Paolo Debala, and the two of them just seemed to play off each other and have so much fun together.

Speaker 29 I think

Speaker 29 there was a magnificent footballer in there. And if this is the end of it, then I guess

Speaker 29 that's going to be what I remember of him as a footballer, whatever else there was that went on.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 people have said, Jonathan, about unfulfilled potential, which does seem strange about someone who has won, like Nikki said, four Serie A titles in the row, you know, a couple of copper Italias, the World Cup.

Speaker 1 But given A, how good he was at Juventus, and when people sort of say as a kid,

Speaker 1 and like that isn't your whole career when you were a kid, but like that he was sort of best in the world potential, and certainly how it panned out at Manchester United, it's just sort of feels yeah, it feels like, oh, this guy hasn't maximized everything he possibly could have done out of his ability.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a

Speaker 28 it's quite it's a sad one really. I think that

Speaker 28 Popper kind of

Speaker 28 to me represents the I think the failures of Manchester United in a way coming like he was such a talented player in the academy. He was so good at at that point and there was such a buzz around him.

Speaker 28 I remember I was writing for a football magazine at the time and and I remember writing the piece on him saying that he he could potentially win the battle on d'Or one day and he had all the attributes to do so and for me it was one of the most exciting talents I'd seen at youth level

Speaker 28 and I really had high hopes for his career and that's like you said there there's there's the sort of one side of it where he's won the World Cup he was you know scored in the final he he was central to an amazing France team and the Juventus team

Speaker 28 and then there's a side of it where

Speaker 28 I can't help but feel in a way that English football kind of let him down to be honest I feel like they sucked a little bit of joy out of him um obviously what's happened since is is completely separate to that but

Speaker 28 he was never maybe the player that people expected him to be but at the same time there was a lot of mitigating circumstances around that just the variety of managers the state of manchester united i mean there's not many players in the last sort of five to ten years who have really thrived there especially big signings and i just felt like pogba kind of got sucked into that but It wasn't really necessarily his fault because he was never

Speaker 28 no manager I didn't think at United really maximised his talent. I don't think they ever found out a way to play him.
I don't think anyone really figured out what kind of player he is.

Speaker 28 I remember there was that time when

Speaker 28 I think it was like, obviously, the late Mino Rola came out and said that he'd offered him, I think Pep Guardola came out and said he'd been offered him to City, didn't he?

Speaker 28 And there was that whole thing at the time and that drama.

Speaker 28 But I actually remember thinking to myself, despite the fact that I wouldn't have wanted to see Pogper leave Manchester United, he probably would have been better off being at Manchester City.

Speaker 28 And his career would would have probably gone slightly better in that sense in terms of his English career.

Speaker 28 You know, the constant sort of barraging from Graham Sunes and people like that, just the criticism of his dancing and stuff.

Speaker 28 I just feel like the love of football maybe got sucked out of him a little bit, which I think he alluded to once

Speaker 28 in an interview about him not being able to be himself. But obviously, this is a completely separate issue.

Speaker 28 You then look at, obviously, the whole issue he's had with his brother and the weird stuff that's happened in Paris around the kind of the blackmail threats or whatever happened there.

Speaker 28 And And I don't know, it's just that I feel like Pogba was such a joyous character as a youth player, winning the youth cup in that team with Lingar and people like that.

Speaker 28 You know, Lingar was sort of also, I think, a similar victim in that sense of just like, why are you having fun?

Speaker 28 You shouldn't be having fun type thing that we do to players at times in English football sometimes. And

Speaker 28 seeing his demise from there, just to me, is really sad, I think. Obviously, you know, drugs test is the drugs test, so I can't, it's difficult to comment on that.

Speaker 28 You know, you don't know the internet. I can't, you can't really say much.
But just in terms of of the trajectory of Pogma's career, yeah, it's a sad one, really.

Speaker 1 Unless you've got anything vital to say, Basil, move on, I think.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 the only thing I'd say,

Speaker 1 it makes it sound like he died. He failed a drugs test

Speaker 1 and he's been punished. And so he should be.
I mean, if you Google Paul Pogma, well, if I Google Paul Pogma, failed drugs test, first thing that comes up is Rio Ferdinand giving him advice.

Speaker 1 Bloody hell.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, athletes athletes are responsible for what goes into their own bodies. And it is, I suppose, sad, but I don't think he has anyone to blame but himself.

Speaker 1 The Chelsea striker and Matilda's captain Sam Kerr is set to face trial after being charged with racially aggravated harassment of a London police officer.

Speaker 1 She pleaded not guilty to the offence at a court hearing on Monday. The Crown Prosecution Service said she's scheduled to appear at Wimbledon Magistrates Court on the 1st of February 2025.

Speaker 1 The incident occurred in January of 2023. Perhaps tells you something about the pace of the justice system.

Speaker 1 The charge relates to an incident involving a police officer who was responding to a complaint involving a taxi fare on the 30th of January 2023 in Twickenham.

Speaker 1 A Metropolitan Police spokesman said she was charged on the 21st of January with a racially aggravated offence under section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986. A couple of interesting points on this.

Speaker 1 Obviously, she is innocent until proven guilty. I don't know if she told anyone at Chelsea this, but like the whole of Football Australia was blindsided by this.

Speaker 1 They had absolutely no idea, which sort of seems mad mad if you are the captain of your country to not let anyone know that this thing might be happened, happening, that Matilda's coach, Tony Gustafson, found out when we all did.

Speaker 1 So it's obviously an absolutely enormous story here in Australia because

Speaker 1 she is the superstar of football in this country.

Speaker 1 There is no socceroo who is anywhere near her. Perhaps Anne's Postakoglu is sort of has some sort of, you know, might compete.

Speaker 1 But in terms of football, she is, and she goes beyond football, she transcends that here so that it's a massive story and so fascinating that she didn't tell anybody um and i think the other interesting point is how chelsea and football australia deal with it you're innocent until proven guilty there's an interesting question of suspending somebody if they are charged if they are going on trial like when do you when should you or shouldn't you do that um

Speaker 1 and also there's a I think we've seen in the past with footballers, the treatment of footballers tends to be different if they're really, really good and really important to you, as opposed to treating everybody equally and in many ways I think Chelsea and Australia have have dodged a bullet because she's out with this ACL injury right so she's not going to take part in the title race she's not going to take part in the Olympics anyway it would have been very interesting to see what they did had that not been the case but as I said she is she's pleaded not guilty and the trial will take place

Speaker 1 next February

Speaker 1 seems such a long way away the wheels of justice max turn very very slowly they do don't they um gavin says shout out for folk please max 29 games undefeated in the league 17 points ahead with nine to play we could draw our last games nil-nil and still win the league which is exactly how you should try and win the league i would suggest uh matty says i was just wondering if barry thought kyle walker fouled marcus rashford or not i'll stop that just what one point on that yeah uh i did note someone I'm not sure if it was Twitter or the comment section on the website

Speaker 1 seemed to think that

Speaker 1 because I was disagreeing with everyone else I was I was being a contrarian that's not the case I was disagreeing with everyone else because everyone else was wrong right just want to make that clear

Speaker 1 I still need to foul but anyway

Speaker 1 on the subject of Troy Townsend's obsession with catalogues as he kept saying catalogue and I brought up Argos and what hi-fi amongst others we got this email hi max tom parsons from what hi-fi here we are are not a catalogue,

Speaker 1 but we are a website and magazine chock full of hi-fi home cinema and TV reviews, news, and advice.

Speaker 1 And we're always listening, even when Johnny Lou is talking nonsense about our Lord and Savior, Big Ange, and Wilson is mocking his apostle Tim O'Verner.

Speaker 1 Let me know if you want me to hook you up with a subscription and I'll happily oblige. I don't believe I'm allowed to take those sort of freebies, I'm afraid.
Massive weekend ahead for Spurs.

Speaker 1 Come on, you, you spurs says tom tom parsons tv and av editor of what hi-fi i'm always surprised when people are actually listening to this uh podcast and speaking to people have listening to this podcast adam has been in touch this is a great email hi max and the gang just wanted to get in touch to thank whoever was sat in the cubicle of the men's toilets at porto airport on monday night listening to the podcast without headphones

Speaker 1 i was sure i could hear

Speaker 1 I could hear a similar voice while doing my business in the next cubicle. I realized after a few seconds that it it was Barry.
Considered that he might have been going mad and talking to himself about

Speaker 1 this guy had gone mad and was talking to himself about whether Rashford was fouled before I heard Troy pipe up too.

Speaker 1 I figured it was unlikely that Barry and Troy were in the cubicle together and realized there was a new pod out. Downloaded it for my flight, which made the journey fly by pun intended.

Speaker 1 So thanks to the mystery bloke for the reminder. Hope he finds his headphone soon.
Keep up the good work, Adam. Are you the man in the adjacent cubicle?

Speaker 1 We'd love you to bring you together and recreate it at a live show or perhaps that's taking it a step too far but in a sort of silla black surprise surprise uh you met before um but yeah thank you adam i enjoyed that tremendously yeah it's very poor etiquette do you think it's very poor bathroom it's just very poor etiquette in general don't listen to things on your phone bring headphones i always have headphones in my pocket or earbuds no i i totally agree young people on the bus just playing their tick tocks that

Speaker 1 just really in internally combusting, but then thinking it's okay. It's just a bus journey.
But I'm, you know, I'm with you.

Speaker 1 Although, if they're listening to Football Weekly, I think it is slightly different.

Speaker 1 Anyway, that'll do for today. Thanks, Nikki.

Speaker 29 Thanks.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Baz. Thank you.
Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Max.
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.