Was City’s Chelsea draw just an off day for Erling Haaland? – Football Weekly podcast

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hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

A three-way title race, a three-way race for the final one or two Champions League spots, and plenty of sides still in danger of the drop.

It really is the greatest league in the world.

Manchester City dropped points when we almost least expected it.

Just an off-day for Haaland or something deeper.

And is that Chelsea turning a corner?

I see.

Despite everyone giving City the title, Liverpool extend their lead at the top.

The direct route works against pinnacless Brentford.

Lovely goals, perhaps cancelled out by three more injuries.

Meanwhile, Gold Shy Arsenal can only manage five at Burnley.

Do they only play bad teams or do they make teams look bad?

Despite being garbage all season, Manchester United are somehow in the mix for the Champions League.

Spots are the first tiny question marks being put at the end of sentences over Angeball.

Some elite finishing from Ollie Watkins and non-elite finishing from Adama Triori means Villa go back to fourth.

How does David Moyes define a tight Premier League game?

Should it be more than three games if you take a player's kneecap off?

What is a referee analyst supposed to do?

And how many of you had temporarily forgotten about the existence of Matt Ritchie?

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hi, hello, Lucy Ward.

Hey, Max.

And good morning to Barney Ronay.

Hi, everyone.

The title race then, Liverpool top 57 from 25, Arsenal 55 from 25, and Manchester City 53 from 24.

They have a game in hand.

Let's start the Etihad with that draw between Manchester City and Chelsea.

You said it on Thursday, I think, Barry, or I said it, or one of us did, that it would be very Chelsea to get a result here.

And they almost got a win.

They did, and they probably should have won.

Both teams missed quite a lot of chances.

Erling Haaland missed two.

You'd expect him to score in his sleep, two headers from the edge of the six-yard box.

Chelsea went ahead, City equalised,

slightly fortuitous, equalised, took a big deflection.

And it's easy to say, with the benefit of hindsight, I suppose, and it's outcome bias.

But

the changes Maurizio Pochatino made on 70 minutes were maybe a mistake.

I thought Chelsea were kind of in the ascendancy.

Cole Palmer was

playing brilliantly for them, linking up the play between defence and attack.

And he was withdrawn.

And Trevo Chalaba came on for his, I think it was his first appearance of the season, certainly his first league appearance of the season, to help shore things up at the back.

And that's when it all started to go wrong for Chelsea.

I think the fact that the deflected goal went in off Chalaba's, you know,

neither here nor there.

But,

yeah,

I thought Chelsea probably did enough to win, but just poor finishing.

They kept creating the same chance and only scored it once and probably should have scored a couple more.

I mean,

they exposed the high line of City.

Barney, did you see this anymore as

a slight aberration?

You know, Haaland did miss buckets of chances.

I just feel like certainly I, and I suppose perhaps no one else, but I have just decided City will now win every game and win the league.

And so when they don't, my eyes sort of open quite wide.

Yeah, I mean, there was a bit of talk about

there's a blueprint here for how to beat Manchester City, even though it didn't involve beating Manchester City, it's still a blueprint for how to do that.

But that blueprint would involve City, the man who never misses, missing a lot of chances.

I think it's true that

City faded as the game went on, I'm sorry, Chelsea faded as the game went on, but I think in part that's to do with the way they played in the first 70 minutes, which was really intense.

But I think the idea was to break into the space behind Cities, what is quite a risky high line, and they had the players to do it, and they did it well.

But it involved

really pressing really hard to win the ball and then making a lot of runs.

And I think what Pochitino was trying to do was to go to the alternative way people talk about playing city, which is to have five at the back.

and to crowd those spaces where they attack.

If you accept that your team is now tired to city, you're going to have the ball.

Teams so often sort of die in the last 10, 20 minutes because there are so many overlaps and so many players in those wide areas and it's so hard to track them so i think he was trying to you know counteract that but you know they're just really good um i mean i suppose

uh some

if there are any weak spots it's that um

city haven't really replaced ilkai gunuan in midfield who's such an important player and i think you vaguely got a glimpse of that yesterday he's really he was always really good in those crunch games really good at controlling it really good against other good teams And City haven't been as good as other against other good teams this season.

But I still think it's just remarkable that we see a blip in them dropping a couple of points.

I agree with you.

I've long since just decided they're going to win a double treble.

And that is the default option.

And anything that happens that's not that will be really surprising because they're that good.

Yeah, I was watching and thinking that if City go on to win it, we may as well pack up and go home because that was the game where could Chelsea get a point from it?

I think from what Barney says about Gundawan, I think he's massive because what you end up with, the way that Peps playing at the moment, Alvarez ends up next to Rodri when they lose the ball in that sort of two central midfielders and he's a forward.

And so they just lose a lot of sort of defensive stuff.

So when, you know, when they lose possession and there's players on the pitch,

Alvarez ends up as the one who goes back into that position next to Rodri.

And obviously, you know, when Gundawan would probably have done that and you know they sort of missed that I think and I I did the game the Everton game and it wasn't until De Bruyne came on that they looked like they had a little bit of technical skill in that they're creative in the middle so it's not all Rosie I think at City of this season and I think it's quite interesting the discourse on on Twitter from the City fans who are used to seeing them you know sort of go on and stride on at this season they're actually sort of questioning some of some of sort of Pep's choices choices and you know it must be wonderful to do that only once every four seasons

did you enjoy i mean there was some controversy about um the penalty award or non-award where um i thought the ref got it absolutely spot on when when kyle walker sort of fouled raheem sterling but made it look like he was being fouled but much more impressive was the the break dancing from kyle walker after he had been not been fouled after he had fouled raheem stirling he went sort of full 1980s lighting up dance floor yeah there was there was the worm as he went down or after he went down i think to exaggerate the effect of the non-foul and then

he he made shaped as if he was about to spin on his head which i suspect is more difficult to do on grass than it is on a a square of lino that breakdancers use what he did was is actually a real skill and grievish does it the best actually as they're running at full speed gets his leg in front of the defender and then goes down it honestly that is so difficult to do and grealish has got that off to a t doesn't always work for grealish but quite a lot of the time he did but walk a little bit slower doing that and it obviously for the referee i think the referee did absolutely brilliant to see what he'd done just ensure that the defender brings him down and then you sort of keep watching it and thinking well if you watch it thinking one way that it was a foul it sort of looks like a foul and when you watch it thinking that's not a penalty then it does so it's one of them where it's it's very very difficult for the officials to get that right i think i i thought city should probably have had a penalty towards the end when it was that sort of handball by levi caldwell that the ball hit his arm as but he was also pulling the shirt off reuben diaz's back at the time so that's kind of two fouls for the price of one

now it shouldn't be a handball but

similar penalties were given the loot and sheffield united game last weekend you know for similar offences in inverted commas so i thought chelsea got away with one there are you saying all we ask all we ask for is consistency

that's all we ask i've never asked for anything else except consistency but i always thought they referred to some well you want common you want common sense at the same time though yeah you want you want consistency and common sense but you can't have both can you no no you can't i mean that yeah yeah i've been struggling with basball recently that there's a new thing that you can't enjoy the good parts and then criticize the bad parts you cannot That is impossible, apparently.

It's this really kind of Trumpian kind of view of what life is.

It is either good or bad.

There's nothing else.

It's interesting.

I mean, Jack Greedish, Lucy mentioned Jack Greedish.

I mean,

the fact that he's missing is obviously a problem, but it's kind of a shame that he wouldn't be that Gundagam player.

I always felt when he went there, Pep would do something with his positioning and, you know, the endless kind of work they do to improve players and that he would be able to fit into it's odd to say they lack a creative passing ball controlling player in the field whereas gridish has become this kind of very linear player who essentially does the same thing all the time and i thought it was interesting having karl palmer on the pitch as well i kind of feel like he's benefited from going to to Chelsea and that it was essentially kind of tactical chaos.

You can be a young player and maybe spend half an hour of a game working out how you're going to play it.

He has slightly unorthodox range of skills the way way he passes the ball i think it's been really good for him to beat a team where there's not this incredibly drilled rigid way of playing i don't know if he'd have developed the same way at manchester city i don't feel that agreed this obviously won loads of trophies he's an incredibly efficient player now but has he developed the way you imagined he might do under guardian i'm not sure and i always imagined he would fill that hole but obviously not and as for calvin phillips you know less said the better yeah i mean he should do do because he's, you know, he's got that low centre of gravity.

He can take the ball on the half-turn.

He can do everything that you want that centre midfielder to do.

I don't know if City have a buyback for Cole Palmer, but, you know, that's probably be a sensible thing in a year or two, wouldn't it?

Anyway, let's go to the G-Tech, Brentford 1, Liverpool 4.

Barney, you were there.

How was it?

Oh, it was really nice.

It's always nice to go to the the G-Tech, as we call it now.

It's like this amazing, it's like Narnia, and there's this little door in a cupboard, and then there's a football stadium behind it.

Somehow, they've managed to fit this Premier League stadium into a kind of development of executive flats overlooking the Thames, and everything's nice and it works.

And it feels like being Danish or Norwegian.

You're kind of in a world where things are small and plastic and sensible, and everyone's nice.

Who plays Mr.

Tumnus?

Is Mr.

Tumnus in Narnia?

Have I got my

right?

Yeah, there's certainly a friendly, small, smiling guy who does a lot of chewing.

He could probably take on that role.

But Brentford were quite good in this game.

Thomas Frank was right.

They were good for the first 20 minutes

and should have scored.

But Ivantoni was a bit blunt.

He had three good chances to shoot.

He kind of scuffed it every time.

And the game was changed by

an amazing opening goal where, you know, it was the Brentford moment where they've got this set piece.

Flacken is going to poof it long.

And everyone goes into their sort of prescribed position, quite central, big bunch of players.

And all it took was one massive hoof down the middle of the pitch from Virgil van Dijk, which I'm sure was deliberate because he knows they must have talked about it.

Liverpool are incredible on the break.

They've got really fast players.

And suddenly,

it was a kind of self-hobbling from Brentford.

The entire team is in the opposition box.

And I thought Giotta's header to Darwin Nunes was incredible.

It was a brilliant heading.

It was sort of leaping to nod it on and knowing exactly where you wanted to put it and exactly the right speed.

And then the finish was just outrageous.

I mean, it was too good.

He shouldn't have been trying to do that.

That could have hit the corner, Frank.

It could have gone over the stand.

It was mental, but just absolutely brilliant.

I think they call it a Vaseline in South America, but I don't know why.

But it was just absolutely astonishing and a brilliant goal.

And that changed the game.

Is it because you scoop the Vaseline?

You sort of scoop the vaseline out of the pot and that was that was a scoop rather than a dink i think there was well you're obviously extremely dink is like experienced at scooping vast amounts of vaseline what are you doing with this stuff um i i know i thought well i don't know i thought maybe it was because it makes the keeper fall over i wasn't i was trying to think about this um but maybe i don't know but not many people put vaseline down as sort of prank you know tripping hazard do they i mean that's not that's not that common so i mean somebody asked about dio with has asked about you know what is the name for the goalie lob scale?

Shall we just call it the Nunes scale?

But it's not a lob, this.

It's definitely a scoop from the Di Maria Poborsket Euro 96.

I think Brian Ruiz got one.

I don't think it's a scoop because the ball touches the, the foot touches the ball very briefly.

It's a dink.

Do you think it's a dink?

It's the tiniest contact.

A scoop involves kind of lifting it.

I thought he lifted it more.

Poborsky lifted the ball.

But a dink is sort of like a sandwich, I would say.

And it didn't feel like...

Yeah, it was one perfect little bit of contact as he was running I take it back I mean Lucy that what's interesting is given we constantly say Manchester City will win the title is that Liverpool have done this and they were already missing Alison and Sobersley and Alexander Arnold obviously they've got these three new injuries as well now but they they could afford to bring on Salah Gakpo and Gravenberg so I guess if they can be sort of lucky with who's available and who isn't so if Bradley's available but Alexander Arnold isn't that's kind of okay.

If Jotter's out but Salah's back, they could kind of be lucky that it would all sort of fit together like some perfect sort of cog mechanism.

I think they've got themselves out of scrapes this season because they've got the strikers that can come on and replay.

So I think if they can sort of keep as many fit as possible, I think Jotter,

that'll be a big blow, Jotter.

I mean, that looked pretty serious.

I didn't see it at first, then saw it in slow motion and realised what had happened.

And that's that obviously quite a serious

knee injury, I would suspect.

But he is just a clever player.

I mean, you talked about

the assist for Nunez's Nunez's goal, but he's just his awareness of

everything around him is absolutely incredible.

And I do think they missed him when he wasn't available.

I think looking at Brentford as well, I think they're missing Burmo.

I think the way that they're playing, he saw against City

and Liverpool, if they just had somebody that could stretch play a little bit in the moments where they needed it, I think particularly against City, then I think that that would have worked.

And he's the one, and Burmo for me, who it makes a difference for Brentford.

Obviously, Tony has come back and made a difference, but just that pace that scares it, just

as a defender, you know, that city wouldn't have come onto them as much as they did neither Liverpool if they knew that they had that sort of threat as soon as they win it back.

And they've got City, haven't they, in mid-week?

Klopp was full of praise for Xiabbi Alonso this week, describing his the standout in the next generation of managers.

The dinosaurs, if you want, Angelotti Mourinho, Guardiola, maybe me.

We will not do it for the next 20 years.

Okay, maybe Mourinho will.

The next generation is already there.

I would say Xiabi is standout in that department.

Of course, with Bayern losing again, might be a bit of a tug of war over Xiabi Alonso.

Barry Brentford have lost four in the last five, only six points above the relegation zone.

I mean, they should be fine, right?

Given who are below them.

It should be noted that this was the first game that Ethan Pinnock had missed for 53 games.

So they shouldn't have even bothered if Ethan wasn't there.

Yeah, he played 53 Premier League games in a row, missed this one, and this was possibly his best game for Brentford because

he was really a conspicuous absentee.

And they played quite well in parts,

but

just some absolute defensive clangers.

Nathan Collins, Christopher Eyre, who came in for Pinnock, and Ben Mee were all culpable in varying degrees.

Who knew Ethan was such a key component of this Brentford side you do suspect they'll be fine but

until they're looking ahead rather than over their shoulders they can't be in any way complacent yeah do you know what I just come back to that first goal I thought it was really interesting when when you if you froze they froze the action and even before Van Dijk had punted it Jota and Nunes had gone already and the Brentford players were sort of on their heels still so clearly you know these guys do a lot of prep don't they for games it was just really interesting to see they They just all knew that Van Dijk was going to absolutely hide the shit out of that ball.

And it was great to see.

I just want to burn it.

There was a penalty here.

I think there might have been two.

Andy Robertson just fouled Ivan Tomey.

It was like just a blatant foul.

There was one in the Forest game, Maxwell Cornay on Nico Williams.

And I don't know if it's just these things happen.

There was also a Nathan Collins foul on Louis Diaz in the Brentford Liverpool game that wasn't given as a penalty.

It should have been.

Yeah, I don't know what point I'm trying to make here, apart from it just seems odd that var doesn't see these things that are really definitely foul yeah it looked like a penalty from you know sitting uh 50 yards away in the press box and everybody just assumed that was going to be vard

and and would be um

the thing is um i've given up trying to second guess the constantly changing kind of script as to what there seems to be kind of vibes and decisions on what people the sort of refereeing, the wider refereeing group wants to be a penalty, directives.

And we've had quite a lot of this, and we're trying to change.

They're trying to sort of engineer player behavior and also how the game flows constantly.

And I think the real problem with that is that they're essentially

not supposed to be doing it and kind of not really the people I would trust to do that and massively overthinking what they're being asked to do.

And I think it's another case of that because I've noticed this kind of penalty.

We have gone from kind of micro-penalties to, it now seems quite different.

And I just wish it would stop.

It used to be kind of a humiliation not to know the precise detail of the rules and how the game's going to play like that.

It was something you just had to know.

But it's so difficult to follow trends and vibes and feelings of what the refereeing massive now, how they want the game to flow.

I assume that this is another presentation someone's made that they've all agreed is a good idea because yeah, the same things seem to be not being given

at different periods of time.

Now there's another PGMOL briefing today to to broadcasters that be interested.

They're always very interesting.

Obviously

it's not for sort of broadcaster.

We can't report on it, but it gives us a feeling of

you know,

where they're at at that particular moment in time about some of the decisions.

And they are quite interesting to listen to don't you think it's like a massive it's a massive i feel like it's an abuse of their reach like why a referee is trying to engineer how the game flows and what it looks like unilaterally just because you have a television camera and you've been given a position of authority i find it really weird and i wonder what it would be like if referees were generally slightly different types of people if they were reluctant to referee rather than being very keen to referee if if refereeing was seen as a last resort it was like jury it was like jury jury service yes

you got a letter the week before going you're you get a letter the week before and you're doing nottingham forest v wool classically a referee was like a butcher from blackburn who didn't want to be doing it who looked at you with disdain listen i was refereed by referees like that the whole of my career so that that is no better believe me referees that didn't really want to be there well it's better as a spectator it's quite nice um the the current sort of mania for refereeing as though you're you're you know this is something can be perfected and and that it's very important to the spectacle which we're now reconfirming um i find really dull tnt sports made great store of the fact that this was liverpool's first league win away at brentford since 19

um or what was 1947 right how many times they've done it have they played four they played four times

in the league away at brentford in that time well big moment for liver open top bus parade for liverpool for that uh we'll start part two with arsenal's win at burnley Burnley.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Dave says, as an Arsenal fan, I should be ecstatic that we've won 6-0 and then 5-0.

It's a sign of great form.

Why then am I sat watching these games screaming, stop using up all our goals?

We might need these in tight games.

Like, goals are a finite resource.

I think every fan feels that.

Imagine how many they'll score, Lucy, when they sign a striker.

29 goals in five straight wins.

I'm sure someone at some point will say it's only Burnley.

And as we said, after the last, I think we got some criticism from Arsenal fans saying all you did was say, yeah, but it's West Ham last week.

And Burnley weren't good.

But Arsenal do deserve some credit for making these teams look so bad.

Yeah, I mean, I do Arsenal quite a lot.

So I've sort of seen over the last couple of seasons how they've been.

I think that when they went on that warm weather training, I think he took all the families out to Dubai, Arteta.

And I think that they've come back from that.

And since then, actually, have been very, very thorough and very relentless.

And I think they were

excellent against Liverpool.

I think they're confident.

I think the difference between Arsenal, there's a few things the difference between Arsenal last season and this season, but I think that they got a little bit emotional last season in terms of the way that they dealt with setbacks, the way that they dealt with the high parts of football.

And I think they just stay quite level.

And I think that's just experience of the group of players that Arteta's got.

I mean, it's fair to say, Arteta hasn't stayed totally level all season.

I would say it's sort of fair to say.

Yeah, he hasn't, but I do think the players

deal well with moments in the game that don't go their way better

and they don't get carried away when they're doing well.

And I think that that is a massive difference because he sort of tweaked the balance between sort of attack and defence.

And I know that

people talk about them getting a number nine, a number nine, but the way that Arteta plays, that number nine that whoever they're thinking of bringing in, as well as scoring goals, has to press like he wants them to press.

He has to be involved like he wants it.

Otherwise,

it wouldn't work how he wants.

And I think that that's probably one of the reasons why he's not got anybody in yet.

But yeah, I mean,

I think Saka is

undervalued.

I do think.

I think that he's a winger that's not a winger.

He's a winger that's everything.

I think his creativity, his numbers are unbelievable.

And, you know, he's obviously a young, exciting player.

But I do

look at Burnley and I do think because it's Vincent Company, I think that he, that, you know,

a manager that speaks very well, that was a Premier League legend, gets...

absolutely nowhere near as much stick as the likes of Chris Wilder.

I don't know why.

I presume it's because that people have a lot of respect.

And right at the start of the season, we all, and I, and we, as pundits, were asked, who do we think will go down?

And we said, I said, Luton, I think, will go down.

I think Sheffield United could go down, but Burnley will be all right.

Everybody, Burnley will be all right because they played fantastic football in the championship.

But they haven't been.

And I think that that company's got away with quite a lot of criticism that he could have had simply because he's Vincent Company, which, you know, know, is probably fair enough.

But I think that they underestimated the Premier League and that the fact that they couldn't.

They're basically young players playing, learning on the job and not really learn from making mistakes and then not doing them again.

And I think that's been the story of Burnley's season.

Perhaps he gets less criticism than Chris Wilder because, to our knowledge, you are allowed to eat bread-based products in front of him without causing major disrespect.

Barney, you wrote a couple of months ago that Arsenal started to look a little predictable when they were having that lull.

What have they changed or is it just a case of their attacking players playing well?

Because Sacco's numbers were always there, but the others weren't.

I think what's changed is in the last, since the,

they worked really hard on their break, summer break.

They said there was a lot of training and they do look refreshed, but also I think...

recent weeks it's been Trossard and Havertz have been making a lot more forward runs and going in behind.

They've sort of both been doing that kind of false nine thing of making runs from unexpected areas.

And they just look a lot more fluid.

I know it's only Burnley and only West Ham.

I don't really mean that, but they look a lot more fluid.

They had become predictable.

I mean, Saka is predictable.

He does do the same thing.

But when he's feeling fresh, it doesn't matter if you know he's going to do it.

It's really hard to stop him because he can twist and turn and move better than you can.

So that becomes really hard to stop.

So he looks fresh which really helps because the ball always goes to him but i think they've got this they've worked out a system where they um they can play the players that artetta likes uh as as lisi says he he wants people who are going to contribute and they're making those runs behind which makes them so much more dangerous also odegaard who has looked brilliant look just looked fantastic all season but not been contributing he's this is a beautiful player to watch often the first 20 minutes you spend it just watching how can he possibly control ball like that like this it's amazing but then nothing much comes of it but he's really been uh looking uh additionally incisive uh since that summer break um so they have momentum so there's something in the salt-based steak that we we shouldn't have mocked it so much um artetta said uh on burnley it is a really difficult place to come which isn't true uh this season at least um but a brilliant win and they are on brilliant form uh to kenilworth road barry uh luton won, Manchester United two, fourth straight win in the league, five in all competitions.

They're hitting form, even sort of unconvincing form.

Now three points behind Spurs, five behind Villa, arguably with more momentum.

It seems mad to suggest that they are in the hunt for a Champions League spot, but they really are.

I don't think it does seem mad.

Manchester United being in the hunt for a Champions League spot should be the very

basic least requirement of

this storied, exalted club.

This win was far from convincing.

The game looked over after six minutes when they went 2-0 up.

Two good goals from Rasmus Hoyland.

One, the first very opportunistic, the second

a little lucky, but very skillfully done.

And one suspects Rasmund Hoyland,

halfway through his

14-match goal drought at the beginning of the season, would not have scored it.

But Luton really grew into the game after that,

scored their goal,

had several good chances before half-time.

Casemiro should have been sent off, but wasn't.

Very lucky boy, and he was...

withdrawn at half-time, as was Harry Maguire, because they were both looking in danger of getting sent off.

Yeah, Manchester United controlled the second half,

didn't get the goals their second half performance deserved.

And then a moment of dim-wittedness from Bruno Fernandez almost gifted Luton a late equaliser at that last corner.

He should have kept the ball out by the corner flag, took a shot instead.

And

Luton ended up getting a corner and

almost scored from it.

But a very good performance and defeat from Luton

to go with their very very good performance and defeat against Arsenal, against Manchester City, against Chelsea at Kennelworth Road.

They drew at Liverpool, and yet they somehow managed to lose against Burnley and Sheffield United at home.

And they're the results that could end up killing them.

So maybe they should reserve their best performances at Kenilworth Road for teams that are not as good as...

Arsenal, Manchester United, Manchester City and Chelsea and Liverpool.

Do you see Eric Tenhaga, afterwards, Lucy, was saying, you know, I knew once I'd got all my players back that there'd be a plan and this would all start to happen.

Do you see a plan yet?

Because I can't.

So look, they're winning games, so like perhaps you don't need one, but I can't really see it yet.

Yeah, I mean, the players, the players make a difference because the good players that have come back make a difference.

I think they're now giving Hoyland a service that he wasn't really having and everybody blaming him for not scoring.

But what they decided to do against Luton is go toe-to-toe with Luton and went long, made it about duels and

got the ball in the space and used

the players they had.

But then I think they've just still got a bit of a soft underbelly, though.

I think that if Kobby Maynu is your best central midfielder, then it's brilliant for Kobby Maynu, but it's probably not for a team that's going for top four.

He just looks so calm on the ball and he deals with the ball so well when there's a lot of players around him.

So that's fantastic for Man United's future.

But you know, he shouldn't be the best performer when you've got casemiro on the pitch um you know and who can be very good but also can be you know he should have been sent off which changed the game i heard rob edwards talking about how much time was added on at the end of the game um and then said something like because it's manchester united or because man united were winning or whatever it was and so um you know i think lutland were unlucky but

they've got everything that you would want for a team that is fighting to stay in the premier league so they defend well at times.

Obviously,

there's a couple of times yesterday they didn't, but on the whole, they defend well.

They don't put the ball at risk in bad areas like Burnley do, playing out from the back when it's not on.

Set pieces are good, and they've got a you know, they've got a real um camaraderie between them.

And obviously, at Kennilworth Road, they look something like, and that I think you compare that to sort of Sheffield, the way Sheffield United are, the way Burnley are, and they're completely different animals.

Um, you know, so Luton have given themselves a chance.

Can i just say that i agree with what lucy was just saying someone was going to deliberately misinterpret when kobby manu is your best midfielder because you're referring to his age there yeah and nothing else um because he's fantastic um i agree with everything you say about him he's heriton hog is a pragmatist so probably he he just works out he did at ix as well he he's not one even though he is dutch has a beard and is bald he's not driven by some overarching philosophy of trying to sort of we need to do this we need these moving parts.

He's a very good pragmatic manager.

I mean, he won at IX with players in their mid-30s who just happened to kind of fit how that team could work.

And I think

that's what he's doing now.

And Maynu is just a revelation.

I'm really worried they're going to play him in too many games and ruin him.

Yeah.

Because he's got all the things, hasn't he?

He can take the ball in those tiny spaces.

He seems to have that chess kind of brain of knowing all the things that modern central midfielders have to do, particularly with the ball being played from the back so often, you've got to be able to take it in that tiny space and want players to come onto you so there's space behind them rather than panic.

And he's absolutely unbelievable.

You know, you often hear this kind of hype about young players, but with him it seems like he really, I saw Ian Wright saying that he's got to be in the next England squad.

And

like on merit,

that would be true, I would think.

But it's just a question of, like you say, he's so chronologically young, even though in terms of of maturity he seems to be um way ahead of people in their in their mid-20s who don't understand the game as well as he does so i think that's a massive thing for them um and the the more he can play not next to casemiro um the better like casemiro will now be banned casemiro reminds me of me playing football at the moment um serial winner um no uh like there's a point as you get older where you you become really good at blocking people and sort of using your body and kind of getting there's there's a window of about about six months where you think, well, this is doable.

I can sort of be an obstacle.

And then it goes and

you become even less mobile and you're just fouling people and you just need to go because you're a danger.

And it looks and feels like that.

Yeah.

Sounds like you're describing my, yeah, sounds like you're describing my football career.

Dave says on that subject of the amount of injury time, the Luton fans just booed four minutes of extra time because it wasn't enough.

Adjusting for inflation, what are the new gasp

values for injury time?

You're right, because you know, in back in the day, four minutes, you were like, oh, we've got four minutes, but now you need at least, what, nine or ten to be truly happy that, you know, you've got enough.

Um, and Jim says, with Mick Harford giving Harry Styles an extra strong mint at Luton, which 80s, 90s footballers, and modern pop stars would you like to see sharing confectionery?

It's a good question that I haven't, you know, I haven't given anyone enough time to consider.

Who would you like to see?

It was quite cute, actually, because Pete Drury

had seen McArthur and really had no idea that Harry Styles was sat next to him.

I think that's quite cute because Pete is just a great guy, but he's probably not interested in Harry Styles.

I mean,

I would like to see,

who would I like to see?

I'd like to see Morgan Gibbs White.

I know it's an ex-footballer, isn't it?

That's how it's got to be.

A footballer from the 80s.

I mean, this is right in my wheelhouse, isn't it?

I'd like to see Robert Alethorne giving Dua Leaper a Karamak.

No, actually,

that sounds like a terrible euphemism.

and i didn't

yeah but we've all talked in math

apologize for everyone involved uh to to the total monster stadium totnum one wolves two um gary o'neil barney had a plan they executed it perfectly it wasn't smash and grab here but for vicario wolves would have won this even more comfortably yeah he's a really good smart clever manager who obviously puts a huge amount of work into every game comes up with these small tactical variations which i can't actually analyze in this case but i've heard him talking about it um and i believe him because he has good results and um it it just seems to work he's he seems like a he's like a defibrillator you like bring him in and suddenly everything is really coherent and works and his kind of gary o'neal magic has happened um but i obviously people will now um because people were enthusiastic towards the idea of andre postacoglu people will now have to be skeptical and say that that was wrong but i think um

you know suppose essentially have the same bunch of players.

It hasn't really changed to what he would like.

He's not a magician, the kind of early kind of positivity of Ange ball will only take you so far.

And I hope people don't rush to judge on the back of

a few defeats.

I do fear Spurs might have a difficult time from here to the end of the season.

Because...

just because they haven't they i mean you're right and hasn't had a lot of time but even still you do they've sort of been limping in the last few weeks, even though they've won the last couple of games, haven't they?

You know, they were Brentford and Brighton were similarly won the hard time managed to turn it around.

Partly because people in the Premier League are really good at formulating plans to counter whatever it is you're doing.

And Spurs haven't had a chance to change the personnel from

how they started the season.

So it's essentially the same.

you know, it's like, like, that's how we play, it's fine.

But

teams, Gary O'Neill, will study you and work out a way to counter what you do and and that's I think what will happen.

Angeball is like basball right it's if plan A doesn't work just do plan A better yeah but but if if you are coming up against the best managers you've come up against against the best players you've come up against do you actually have to be better than do you have to have a plan B that isn't just plan A better yeah I think that that Spurs they always play play on the edge so it either tips in their favour or it doesn't more more often than not tips in their favour or it doesn't.

So there'll be games like that where they can't get back into it.

But, you know, I think when we start talking about West Ham, I think if you ask the Spurs fans watching what they've watched this season

with Poster Coglu, then they would rather see a team going for it.

And then when he gets a hold of the squad, like Barney says, and he can change it and bring players in that he that he wants and who thinks will fit better with, I think there'll be even better.

So I think everything, to be honest, is with Spurs.

And I'm just looking at Twitter.

Rob Collins has put, I know this doesn't really work on a podcast, but have any of your pal ever seen Neil Redfern and Ange in the same room?

Now, that is why I love Ange.

It must be because

I live with him basically.

He lives in the same house as Ange Foster Coglu.

There you go.

Does Neil have a gruff to the point voice currently these days?

He does, doesn't he?

Redferno, he's not taking any shit, is he, Neil?

Does if you're giving Neil a dressing down over something, does he like just stare at the floor and answer monosyllabically?

Yeah.

And call you Mike.

Yeah, in the cupboard.

If he thinks you're being a twat, does he call you next?

That's the real question.

I did say this to Baz yesterday on the radio, but I had not heard of Jiao Gomez.

But I do feel that if Wolves built a footballer in a lab, he would be called Jow Gomez.

And he would be a solid, diminutive central midfielder.

And he took his goals really well, didn't he?

Especially the second one.

It was a wonderful break.

Fulham 1, Villa two.

This win in Spurs loss puts Villa back in the top four.

And Barry, they did it with a back four who hadn't played together without Camera, who you said last week was a real loss for them.

And I know Fulham really pushed them at the end, but it's a great win for them.

Yeah, and I actually foolishly thought Fulham would win this game.

I can't figure Fulham out at all.

I think they strike me as being absolutely rubbish, but yet...

They don't seem to be anywhere near the relegation zone.

They're not in that conversation.

They've won a couple of games, 5-0, back-to-back.

And yet, anytime I watch them, they seem absolutely terrible.

So

I thought they might win this game.

They probably should have won the game, but

it was an excellent performance from a village team, which, as you say, Long Lay, Paul Torres

in as centre halves.

Not sure if they've played together before.

Fulham,

to an extent, shot themselves in the foot.

The first goal they gave away was ridiculously cheap, a terrible throw-in from Anthony Robinson that put Willian in all sorts of bother.

And

Tieleman picked out Watkins who scored.

And I think Ollie Watkins, I suppose he'd be in the England squad anyway.

But now that Callum Wilson is going to be out till probably mid-April, that will open the door for Ivan Toney, I suppose.

But

yeah, very impressive from Villa and in a game I thought they would not win.

Well, that second finish was quite Shearer-like, actually, from Watkins.

It was just like, right, I'm just going to bang this in.

And I did.

And, you know, well done to him.

He'd only scored 2-10 before this game.

So he needed those goals.

All right, that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin with Notting Forest victory over West Ham.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was a new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Jonathan says, was Mervyn Day at fault for the second Forrest goal against West Ham?

Yes, whoever was in goal for West Ham was absolutely brilliant, Barry, be it Fabianski or Ariola.

I mean, I've lost trying to work that out, but it was quite interesting after we muddled him up last week that he had this absolutely...

He just had a worldie, didn't he?

Ariella, but for him, Forrest would have smashed West Ham, despite David Moyes saying it was a tight Premier League game afterwards.

Yeah, it really wasn't a tight Premier League game.

And Forrest should have won pulling the cart.

As you say, Alphonse Sariola had a brilliant game to keep the score down.

And there were

banners being held up.

Well, sort of more kind of homemade signs rather than banners being held up by disgruntled West Ham fans in the away.

And

I have no idea whether David Moyes will be sacked or not.

He does keep harking back to what he's achieved with West Ham, and that's, I suppose, fair enough because his achievements with West Ham are quite impressive.

But I think Barney alluded to this in an article he wrote about Moyes a couple of weeks ago.

Sometimes people just want something different.

And I think West Ham fans don't like the style of play, or a sizable proportion West Ham fans don't like the football they're playing under Moyes and would quite like to see someone else get the job and serve up more entertaining football.

Yeah, they haven't won since the tuna win over Arsenal on the 28th of December at Arsenal.

They've got Brentford, Everton, Burnley coming up.

But Lee says, What's the panel's view on entertainment versus results?

It seems to me that there is now a demand by some fans to be entertained as well as for a club to achieve results on the pitch.

What's causing the expectation?

Higher ticket prices, he says.

What do you think, Barney?

Has there been a change or has this always been thus?

There's definitely been a change.

I don't think it's higher ticket prices because I think

often

fans who go to the games are not the people who complain about entertainment value.

If you win a game

and you're in the stadium, that's incredibly entertaining, particularly if you only have 10% of possession.

I think also it's tactically the way a lot of teams are now.

The first 10 minutes of

Brighton against Sheffield United were just bizarre because Sheffield United basically didn't touch the ball.

And if you're playing a team that's anywhere who plays that way, you will just watch goalkeepers doing the opposition goalkeeper doing a Croy turn endlessly and the opposition centre-backs passing to each other because that's tactically the way football is now.

And if your team is not strong, West Ham are the only team to have made a decision to not have the ball from a position of strength.

Moyes is the only manager who's not possession-based, who's in the top

nine in the Premier League, who has good players and could conceivably win another way.

He's the last person playing like that.

And it does mean you're basically going to end up spending a hell of a lot of time watching Lewis Dunk doing step overs.

And maybe if you're a West fan fan, that's not what you want.

So I think that's a part of it.

Also, people just keep talking about it and it ends up being a theme, doesn't it?

We will talk about something else in a bit but now it's entertainment as though it's kind of

sort of uh uh saturday night afternoon saturday night television with anton deck and you know we want we want entertainment we don't want david moist he's not entertaining

so david moyce could wear like a spangly jacket and come down a staircase into like to like some sort of saxophone music yeah i mean i would

yeah exactly i mean i would be all i mean i mean i'm not a west ham fan so maybe some may see that as a gimmick but i would certainly enjoy enjoy West Ham even more, you know, if there were sort of a few gunk tanks around for, you know, when players, you know, Calvin Phillips gets sent off, he has to go and sit in the gunge for me.

Just on Calvin Phillips, Lucia, I know you know him well, and

like it must be hard to watch the start of his West Ham career for you.

Yeah, I mean, I think you get you get players who need to play all the time.

And I think...

For example, Declan Rice is one of them.

I watched Rice come back from that trip to Dubai and and he wasn't in rhythm against Crystal Palace.

They just need to play all the time because that's the way that they feel that

they can maintain form.

I think,

as far as Calvin's concerned, it's been an absolute disaster for him professionally going to City.

I think he probably wrongly assumed that City bought him because they knew what type of player he was and how they could use him.

I really don't understand why

Guardiola wanted him if he was never going to play him.

He will not have turned into a bad player overnight.

I know he had injuries.

I don't know whether it was, I mean, it was it to keep him away from other top teams.

Is it an admittance that Bielsa and South Kate can get the best out of him, but City can't?

Because, you know, we've all seen Calvin play well.

It's not just Leeds fans that have seen Calvin play well.

So

why did City buy him if they didn't want what he can do?

It's a really strange situation.

It's just so, it's just, he looks frustrated to me.

He looks like he's not match fit.

He's desperate to do well.

And,

you know, if you could sort of build a scenario, which could be the worst possible scenario when you moved on loan somewhere, I think that he's probably got that

at West Ham.

But he'll, you know, I know him.

I know that he'll keep trying and he'll keep, you know, he'll keep working as hard as he can.

But, you know, the Man City thing really annoys me because

why on earth did they, why did they buy him?

They They knew what he did.

Why did they buy him?

But didn't Pep Guardiola kind of come out and more or less tacitly suggest that

Phillips wasn't intelligent enough to take his instructions on board and play?

But he's intelligent enough to take Belsa's instructions on board.

So is that Guardiola sort of saying that you can't, you know, get what?

This is my point.

We have seen BLSA get the absolute best out of Calvin.

We've seen Southgate get the best out of Calvin.

So Guadiola, why can't he get the best out of Calvin?

It'll be interesting to see the next England squad because on form, you know, you'd have to, we talked about Cobby Maynard or even Ross Barkley, was brilliant against yesterday.

Like you'd have to select them, but it'd be interesting to see what Southgate does.

Nottingham Forest, I did want to mention a one yeast,

you know, that control, that first touch, it's elite centre-forward play.

That pass from Dominguez is fizzed in.

It's a brilliant first touch.

Forrest have appointed former Premier League ref and current gladiators ref Mark Clattenberg as the club's new referees analyst.

Barney, I presume you're fully in favour of this.

Yeah,

get butts in.

Yeah, I mean, that's a sign, but it's one of those moments where everyone should just stop, look around, think about what they're doing and say,

this has gone too far.

I was actually just googling, I was just, there was a point, I remember seeing this extraordinary comment from someone close to Manchester City after Phillips had moved there.

They said, one of the problems it had is that he doesn't speak Spanish.

So that it had taken quite a longer time to settle into the city dressing room.

And this kind of passed unnoticed.

I just thought it's one of the weirdest things I've ever heard about Premier League football team, that that was literally an obstacle.

And there was a thing recently about him talking to, he talked to Bielsa for half an hour recently.

And the whole thing took place through Bielsa's translator, which also seems extremely.

It seems his entire career has been based around

trying to speak Spanish to people while playing at a series of clubs in the north of England.

I do think probably the instructions that Bielsa were giving him were a lot more simple and linear than what you'd get from Guardiel.

I mean, Bielsa's obsessed with running, and that was essentially what he was told to do.

Sorry, Mark Cluttenberg.

I can't imagine Jack Greedish or John Stones are fluent in Spanish.

That ref, they know the analyst ref bit.

I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous, but they have opposition analysts in clubs.

So are you Forrest looking at the ref that you've got for the next game?

This is what he's like.

This is what he does.

This is what he doesn't stand for.

This is the way.

I don't know.

I'm just trying to...

to sort of see it viewers, you know, maybe it isn't quite as stupid as it as it seems, but we'll soon see.

It doesn't seem stupid at all.

The referee seems to be the most important person on the pitch now.

So, and given that you have a throw-in consultant, which is also important, and you have everything else, why would you not have someone analyzing the referee?

I think it's a really good idea, just incredibly boring, and I hate it.

Yeah, I mean, I would just like the idea that Mark Cluttenberg, they just ask him afterwards if he'd have given a penalty, and he says, Yes, I would.

And then they just give him £10,000, or he just starts doing gladiators, you know, and he gets Morgan Gibbs White on a travelator or suddenly Ryan Yates is coming to scale a climbing wall, chased by Trojan as quickly as he possibly can.

I do know that every time he speaks to the squad,

someone holds up a sign saying voice of Mark Clattenberg.

That definitely happens.

All right, let's rattle through the last few games.

Elliot says, how many blue cards would Mason Holgate have got for that tackle?

I mean, it is so bad.

You do wonder, Barry if

three games is enough of a ban.

Well actually it hadn't really crossed my mind until you mentioned it in the introduction

but it certainly deserves a three and it's amazing that

he didn't get a red until the referee had had another look at it and it was overturned or the original yellow.

This was a shocking tackle, like absolutely shocking.

And I'm not sure what motivated it.

It's because they hadn't touched the ball.

But Brighton, they're in front of the home fans.

The game had kicked off and they just had no possession.

And Matoma just had a slightly heavy touch on it, which I think probably fooled the referee that the ball kind of was there to be won, but he went for a thigh height.

But it was because of frustration.

It was because of the way Brighton were playing, I think.

He's apologised.

You know, he's admitted that was horrendous.

And luckily, Matoma's okay.

Yeah, really lucky.

I mean, and actually for his teammates, you know, those nine outfield players who are left on the pitch to just spend an afternoon running and chasing a team who are really good on the ball.

I mean, it doesn't help them.

It doesn't help them at all, does it?

I mean, it did feel Lucy like Brighton could have won 20-0 if they'd wanted to in this game.

I don't know how much more we can analyse.

No, I just think that

all you can say about Shefford United is they saw the two best players like a week before the start of the season and didn't have enough quality.

And I don't think that that's anything that Chris Wilder or Heckingbottom could have done about it.

They're just not equipped for a season in the Premier League.

And I don't think

you can look at the manager and sort of say it's their fault.

And they're going to go back down.

And it's how much damage is done to the squad that they've got.

And obviously, Chris Wilder

has shown his class in the championship with Sheffield United, whether he'll stay, but how much damage will be done between now and the end of the season.

Newcastle 2, Bournemouth 2, which is the last game in the running order, but a really good game, Barry, and lots of really good bits.

Matt Ritchie coming out of the wilderness, Dubravka slipping over.

That sort of odd

Fabian Cher, is it a penalty?

Isn't it a penalty?

I really enjoyed this game.

Yeah,

Newcastle's home for him has gone from being really, really good to middling to bad.

They didn't have a fit striker for this game.

Isaac and Wilson were both out.

You know,

we've spoken at great length about Newcastle's injury woes, and

those woes must be really intensifying if even Matt Ritchie is getting the game, because the only time we've seen him this season is really kicking his heels, looking glum on the bench, and very much not being part of Eddie Howe's plans, no matter how bad things get.

But

he rescued Newcastle here.

Initial bad header,

the ball rebounded his way, lucky ricochet, and he smashed home from six inches out.

And I believe it was his first goal since 1982 or something like that.

Yeah, since 2020.

It was sad because nobody celebrated with him because I think someone went to get the ball and run back to the centre circle.

So there was Matt Ritchie having his moment.

There was no one anywhere near him.

Matthew says, how many more Pacey wingers does Dan Byrne have to go up against before it becomes torture?

Yeah, it is.

I mean, you say, Bonnie, it's just a thing we talk about, like David Moy's future.

Dan Byrne, people running away from dan burn is a thing at the moment isn't it yeah it's iconic isn't it and there's a certain way that he runs as he's chasing back he's slightly rocking from so he's so physically large that he can't possibly be expected to keep up with these nimble footed kind of super athletes and he is he's plugging away at it but he needs to be released from his torture uh it's

there seems to be a goal down that side every week and a picture of dan burn running backwards slowly and i've seen enough free Dan Byrne.

I really enjoyed after you know that penalty where so Fabian Cher is in an offside position, but he isn't active when the shirt pull happens.

This is why the penalty was given.

But Iriola afterwards said, Look, the only reason Adam Smith pulled his shirt back is because he knew Fabian Cher was in an offside position, which is incredibly astute from Adam Smith with all that going on.

I mean, he should definitely become a referee's assistant if he's got that sort of peripheral vision while he is defending a free kick.

And Semenio's finish was brilliant as well.

Lucy, sorry, can I ask, if you're in a position like Dan Burns, I don't know if you ever have been, where you're just getting skinned week in, week out, and there's not really anything you can do about it because you can't run any faster than you already are.

Does a party want to be dropped?

I think that he just needs to be taken out of the firelight.

And I think even if he's sort of annoyed initially when he doesn't play the next one, he probably will benefit from it you'd never sort of say take me out but you probably look pleadingly at the manager with your eyes but yeah it's it i mean he's got so much value to that newcastle team hasn't he dan burn set pieces and you know when they he's sort of like a lopsided back forward allowing trippy to to get forward and and he's a leader as well but i just think you need his values of leader needs a fully confident player and i think at the moment but do you know what doesn't help dan burn not having joelinton in midfield,

not having Willock and that sort of powerful running that them to have got.

I think you only miss Joel Linton and you see his value when he's not there and just physically, when they win it back and when they lose it and that is that would help the defence and help Dan Byrne.

So there's quite a lot of things that have sort of contributed to him being exposed and isolated quite a lot.

So Joel Linton is basically Newcastle's Ethan Pinnock.

That's what you were saying.

I mean, I mean, Eddie Howe's not tall.

so maybe Dan Byrne is looking longingly into Eddie Howe's eyes at training, but Eddie Howe's eyeline is just not high enough.

He just can't see the desperation.

Anyway, Everton Palace tonight.

We'll talk about that game and

Roy Hodgson slash Oliver Glasner on Wednesday's pod.

Of course, talk about the Brentford Man City game and the Champions League games on Wednesday as well.

Good news for West Brom.

A takeover has been agreed with American businessman Shinen Patel, who's purchasing an 87.8% stake.

We chatted to the guys from Action for Albion on this podcast a while ago.

So delighted for them.

There's an EFL pod next Tuesday.

John says, on the subject of the speed with which people listen to this podcast, my default is times two.

On the odd occasion, I find you at times one.

You all seem plastered.

I like to think you are.

Thank you, John.

Appreciate it.

I feel times two.

You're not really getting the nuance of the pod when you listen to it that fast.

I mean, times, can you do times 32?

What's the quickest you could listen to this?

Just get it done.

Get it over with.

I work so hard on my phrasing and my pauses and the notes between the notes.

Spend so long rehearsing and then it's just become a kind of high-pitched squeaky squeal.

Yes, I mean the whole thing, as you know, this is, we do at least three rehearsals before we do the take for the pod, you know.

Sometimes the second rehearsal, the first is the best one, but you know, this is all scripted.

It is worth you knowing that.

And that'll do for today.

Thank you, Lucy.

Thank you.

Thanks, Barney.

Cheers, everyone.

Bye.

Thanks, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.