Jürgen Klopp to step down at Liverpool as Maidstone step up – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Two huge stories, Maidstone's FA Cup triumph, and Jurgen Klopp's announcement that he's stepping down at the end of the season.

And with apologies to George Elikovi, we'll start with Klopp.

It seems to have surprised everyone, but gives us a chance to celebrate his achievements, his ability to improve players, and build and rebuild his squad.

What will he do after heavy metal football perhaps wind down with the acid jazz of international management?

And what next for the red?

Jabbi Lonzo just seems to tick every single box.

Then on to the cup, 98 places between Maidstone and Ipswich, and it might have been smash and grab, but what a glorious victory.

Two brilliant counter-attacking goals and a great goalkeeping performance.

Everything you need to cause an upset.

We'll do the other games a scare for Man Yu, the crowd, trouble at the Hawthorns, and Man City scoring at Spurs for the first time in years, and is the pod in danger of falling into the pocket of big steak, all that.

Plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenny, welcome.

Hi, Max.

Hello, John Bruin.

Hello.

And hello, Jonathan Faduba.

Good morning, Max.

Good morning and joining us for part one.

It's been too long.

Our Merseyside correspondent, Andy Hunter.

Hey, Andy.

Hi, are you okay?

Yeah, good.

Thanks.

Andrew says I remember where I was when I heard Shankley was going and I'll always remember hearing that Klopp was going he's been perfect for Liverpool bringing not only success but also so much joy thank you Jürgen let's hope we get Alonzo and he's as good as he seems to be so Jürgen Klopp decided to leave Liverpool at the end of the season he's won seven major trophies so far the Champions League of course and their first league title for 30 years he released a video I don't know about you, Andy, I mean, I presume it's been quite a busy weekend for you, but I'm rarely surprised by anything.

But I was really, I wouldn't say shock is maybe going too far, but it really took me aback this video.

Oh, I was shocked, completely shocked.

I had no inkling it was coming, which is probably shouldn't be saying as the Ms.

football correspondent.

But no, I mean, he did his press conference on Thursday for the Knowledge Game, which was unusual.

We were asking questions about that and giving some story about it being for he had a very busy commercial day on the Friday, so couldn't do it.

And then the first inkling that anything was out of the ordinary was getting an email moments before Liverpool released the video saying there was going to be a press conference at the training centre that afternoon.

No indication of what it involved.

I genuinely thought it could have been a Dunkin' Donuts deal renewal.

And I was questioning whether I had to go there.

And then next thing, the video dropped and all hell broke loose.

I'm genuinely, genuinely gobsmacked when

I heard him say that he was leaving at the end end of the season.

I know he'd been quite deflated by last season, and we spoke about it to him or with him at the beginning of this season about him being re-energised by the transfers and about how well Liverpool were playing.

So that side of things, that doubt about whether he still had the energy that he needs to do the job had kind of been, we thought, put to bed.

And Annie, what's the last 48 hours been like then?

From being at Anfield yesterday and from obviously the reactions on Friday, one of

initial devastation amongst Liverpool fans, and then and disbelief still.

I think you know, I know quite a few people who sit near the press box or Anfield in the main stand yesterday who just

still couldn't come to terms with it and shaking their heads.

And they were very, inevitably very supportive of Klopp getting behind them in the first minute and a sustained chorus of Jurgen as a Red after the final whistle.

But generally, I think people are still in just disbelief.

and

you know, not so much at the moment that can come worrying what comes next.

I'm sure that is a feeling, but the sense of loss that

will come when he does step away because he's much more than a successful manager for Liverpool.

Can you give a sense of what he means to the fans and sort of what he's done to half of the city?

I think

talking about energy and talking about him running out of energy, he has re-energized the fan base, brought it all together, given a new generation

moments and nights and trips that they will never forget.

Even if you could say that he could have won two more Champions Leagues or pipped for the title twice.

I think it's more the joy.

I think Jonathan Liu put it brilliantly in his piece on Friday.

It's the feel.

the feel that he's brought to Liverpool.

That can't be replaced.

That's the sadness, I think, for Liverpool fans now.

Is

you could get another successful manager who could maybe keep pushing Liverpool to challenge city's dominance, but there isn't another clop,

and it's that joy, it's that feeling, that communal experience that that is going.

And it's a very, it'll be a very sad day when it, when it does get, it does end.

Barry, what did you make of his reasoning?

I mean, sort of that sense of perspective seems quite healthy to me.

It sort of feels like within within football, it's like no one could ever just go, do you know what?

I'm actually just a bit knackered.

So I'll just, I'll just have a breather.

I'll just step away.

Yeah, I mean, when I heard the news, I was stunned like everyone else.

And my immediate thought was, oh, is he okay?

Like, you know, I thought, oh, maybe he's ill or something, or he's had a hell scare, or, you know, someone in his family has had a health scare.

But I suppose when you think about his reasoning, assuming the reasons he's given are genuine and of no reason to think they aren't,

Walking away at the top of your game is difficult, but if you can afford to do it and you know that there'll always be a job for you somewhere else when you decide you want to come back, if you want to come back,

then it's grand.

Why not do it?

And

he,

you know, for a while, he has looked like he's had the weight of the world on his shoulders.

It's a very stressful job.

And

he's been there quite a long time.

So I did think it was interesting, actually.

Andy asked him during his press conference, was there any chance he might do a Fergie on it and change his mind?

You know, and asked him, is there anything that could happen that would make you change your mind?

And it was a good question.

And it was quite funny that Klopp seemed genuinely not to know that Fergie had, you know,

announced his departure, then changed his mind and stayed at Manchester United for another decade or more so uh and and he said no uh nothing could happen if if we don't win any trophies I won't change my mind if we win all four trophies I won't change my mind and I suppose the one thing I did find quite curious was his

definitive announcement that he will never manage in England again and I thought that was a bit strange

I don't know why he would say that.

Is it just out of loyalty to Liverpool or to help Eric Ten Hag have a good night's sleep?

I'm not sure.

But

yeah, so

I mean, I'd like to know, Andy, he's obviously a good man.

He's a nice man.

He's a brilliant manager, but he can occasionally be a bit spiky and unpleasant in interviews.

And

how's your relationship been with him over the years?

And how do you guys who deal with him, you know, week after week,

how do you all get on with him?

I think I'd say quite well.

I mean, to be honest, we're in a fortunate position or privileged position where we've, you know, we cover Liverpool all the time.

We've been there for some of us older ones have been there for the duration.

And so I think with that comes a bit more of a better relationship.

You know, a lot of his

spikier press conferences, I would say, have come.

I mean, and obviously this is not an exact science, but a lot of them have come at away matches when he's getting questioned by someone perhaps he doesn't really know.

And he's, if they don't win a game, Liverpool, he's not great to deal with.

Even if they get a fortunate draw, he's not great to deal with.

If they win, fine.

But, like, most managers are like that, I suppose.

I think he's,

yeah,

you know, he likes to control the room as well.

That's the other thing.

But I think, you know, as I say, from dealing with him for nine nine years

and and we don't just you know we see him separately to the the broadcast interview that you see you know he'll go off to a side room and have a few minutes with the written press and that can be a bit more relaxed anyway so if he wants if he has an issue with something that's in the papers or or that's out there he can you know take it to task and you can have it out with him without it being broadcast and then becoming a social media sensation he can actually be himself and just get it out there.

And I think he likes that part of things: that knowing that he could kick off at someone and it's not going to, you know, be dissected for

by 20 million people.

So, yeah,

I think we have quite a decent relationship with him.

But, you know, the demands on his time as well.

I mean, I remember seeing

his press list before a Champions League final, no, on a Champions League press final, a media day where they're doing the rounds, and he had something like 20-odd interviews to do in one afternoon.

And just like, that would drive me nuts.

It's like Margot Robbie at a film jacket, isn't it?

Yeah, you're getting asked this, but you've been getting asked the same question as well.

Yeah.

And if you're doing that 20th interview and your patience has well gone by then, you've still got to look like it's the first time you've heard it enthusiastic because whoever is seeing that interview, whatever country that is in, are going to be, you know, forming their judgment off the back of it.

So, you know, I remember seeing that list and I genuinely couldn't believe how many interviews he had to do.

And I know it's not a Champions League final press day every week, but

it gives a sense of the demands that's on him and increasing all the time as well.

Jonathan, what's the...

Barcelona's the greatest moment, right?

Isn't it?

That second leg is just

so extraordinary.

Yeah, winning the Champions League clearly has to go down as his greatest achievement, the Premier League as well, ending that sort of long 30-year wait for Liverpool.

During the COVID season, mate, it didn't have the same impact.

You can imagine the city would have been much crazier had it not been for COVID.

And you can only imagine the scenes if they win it this season, of course, they've got a good chance of winning it.

I think there's a lot of things wider that Klopp did that kind of really changed Liverpool, the club, and also...

maybe you could argue the Premier League in a sense.

I mean, he brought in Bayer Munich's head of nutrition, I believe, and sort of completely revolutionised the nutrition side of the club.

I mean, Andy, you'll confirm this, but as far as I'm aware, in terms of youth development, he changed the academy pay structure, or the club changed the academy pay structure to sort of cap the amounts that youth players

could earn, and that allowed the sort of youth development side to really thrive.

You know, you only had to look at the game yesterday, Conor Bradley and McConnell playing, and he's obviously brought through the likes of Trent, Curtis Jones.

There's so many players who have progressed through Liverpool's Academy into the first team under club.

And having that eye on the youth team and the youth development side, I think, is a really important factor.

Hiring things like a throwing coach, you know, that at the time, I know it was sort of five, six years ago now, but that at the time was really considered revolutionary, wasn't it?

There was a point where Liverpool, having a throw-in was almost like having a corner.

You were worried when Liverpool got a throw-in because they became so good at that side of the game under Klopp.

So there's so many different avenues that he's kind of, including that heavy metal football that he brought in from Dortmund.

There's so many different avenues of change that he brought about to Liverpool.

And I think it's like Andy said there, it's just it's also that that father figure type of role that he's had in the city and at the club.

He's kind of a natural born leader and

you know listening to his press conference he mentioned something that struck me about energy.

He said his leadership style I think is based on energy emotion and relationships and that basically without that he can't if he can't be all in Then he can't really do it and manage in the way that he wants to manage and you know it's quite a frank admission but it was a really good insight into his leadership style which I found interesting.

I think he's the sort of man who has a, he'll have a job, you know, coaching managers or doing leadership training, whatever he wants.

He's going to be really interesting to get insights from.

I can imagine reading a leadership book on him at some point in the future.

So there's so many different elements to Club and how he's affected Liverpool that I think

not only just the trophies and the style of football he's brought in, but there's just all that wider thing.

I mean, just quickly, like, I actually flew back to Liverpool on Friday from Barcelona and And

the guy at the border control, to my friend, he said to him, instead of saying, can I have your passport, first thing he said to him was, have you heard about Klopp?

And he said he'd been crying.

He said he'd been crying all afternoon since he heard the news.

So, you know, when the border control guy isn't giving a Mexican guy some grief about his passport, he was more interested in talking about Klopp.

That kind of sums it all up, really.

So, yeah,

I think the city is quite sad and clearly it's probably a sad day for the Premier League as well.

His ability, John, to he's great with great players, but when you think about, I don't know the importance of like Devo Karigi in the history of what Klopp has achieved, like he's got an ability to manage every kind of player within a squad.

Yeah, that's true.

I think you maybe go back to Dortmund days and look at some of the players that came out of that club, looked so good at Dortmund and never really made it at the next club that they moved to.

And then you look at Liverpool's recruitment when he came into the club.

Andy will remember this all too well,

the old transfer committee and all the rows about that between the fans.

And it was one of those big topics of debate.

And Klopp came in.

Something similar, I think, operates at that point.

But what Klopp has is the ability to turn talent that arrives in his team and make use of it.

And there aren't many Liverpool players that have come in and have been complete flops in his time.

And let's compare that to the great rivals down the road, Manchester United.

That's one of the big accusations made

in their failings in the last 10 years.

And yeah, he's such an energising figure.

As Andy said, I've been at a couple of the games where he's

lost, you know, down at Bournemouth

or where he's asked the wrong question.

I think what Andy said,

he always likes to be the first question.

He gets to describe the game himself, doesn't he?

So it's like...

First question is,

you could say anything, and he will just say, well, we started well, we played this or whatever.

but i remember uh someone asking him a question about daniel surridge first question and him absolutely exploding because it wasn't his description of the game so yeah i mean the thing is you know what what what clock brought is natural charisma and when liverpool turned to him as manager back in 2015 they got themselves a front man.

If you're playing this heavy metal thing, they got themselves a front man.

They got a guy that means that the American owners can sit in the background.

They can take some of the credit for his success.

But, you know, in this world, this is a new football world, isn't it, of like sporting directors and all these technical consultants and all these type of things, Klopp showed actually that the power of the manager is still as strong as ever.

But also, when you look at the way he steps away from the game,

you look at how

being that set being that front man, being that center of a club can really take it out of someone.

This season, we've talked about on a pod about how he's looked so agitated at times.

He's looked, there's a certain greying out of the old Jurgen clock that I've seen.

But then you look at his contemporaries and maybe a little bit older, or

you look at Pep Guardiola, look at Jose Mourinho, yeah, these are good-looking men, right?

These are good-looking men, but they look older than they actually are, I think.

You know,

the game has taken an awful lot out of them.

It's a bit like a pod.

I mean, that happens for pod regulars, doesn't it?

Yeah, this what what is it, six years now I've been on this thing?

I mean, it's taken years off me, but it's you look like Manuel Pellegrini now, John.

I'd just like to stay for the record: I do not have a single grey hair.

I've got many.

I didn't have them when I started, but you know, but yeah, exactly.

The thing is, it is such a hard, hard like, and the thing is, um, Andy, uh, in a piece he wrote for the paper on Saturday,

you know, mentioned the Bill Shankley resignation back in 1974 and the Kenny Dalgleish one.

And when you look at

both, all three are very similar.

All three of them step away talking of the weight of managing Liverpool because of all jobs, maybe there are others just as big.

The pressures are so great, aren't they?

And actually, Andy, that's interesting, isn't it?

Were the fans yesterday and have the fans you've spoken to?

And in your personal view,

you have Klopp at the same level as Dal Gleesh and Shankley.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

100%.

In terms of what he means to the the place as well and his connection with the city.

It's not just about trophies, it's about the connection and the feel of the place.

So yeah, absolutely up there.

But one thing I would say as well about him feeling tired or perhaps or running out of energy is Klopp feels responsible for absolutely everything that happens at Liverpool from the first team to the staff to the canteen staff to the people on the gates.

He feels a huge weight of responsibility for everything they do.

And I know this might not be the most exciting conspiracy theory for why he announced his departure when he did.

But one of the reasons was because,

like Jonathan mentioned, the nutritionist and the backroom staff, he wants to give his backroom staff who will probably have to leave the club because of his decision.

And he feels a weight of that.

He wants to give them time to plan their next step this summer.

If they've got kids, they're going to have to move schools.

If they came with them from Germany, they're going to have to start looking for work and clubs back in Germany or elsewhere.

So he wanted to give them all

a good few months to start that process as well because he feels such responsibility to the entire club that he has built.

Shabby Alonso, then, Jonathan?

I mean, it seems so destined, doesn't it?

And I don't know, it just seems like everything is just geared towards Alonzo.

I'm obviously hoping that Angel Postakogli doesn't find out that Klop's leaving.

That's sort of

my main fear.

But do you think Alonzo would be a good idea?

Or is it too early to say?

I think he's going to be the favourite, isn't he?

Along with probably Deserbi, Brad Brighton, they seem to be the frontrunners.

It struck me when it was announced that

they also announced that Pep Blinders will be leaving.

I thought that there was maybe a succession plan potentially.

I think it's been discussed in the past that the assistant manager would maybe come in and eventually replace Klop.

He's very well regarded at Liverpool, I think.

Andy, obviously, you'll know more than me.

And

I remember reading once that there was some sort of idea that he may be in a position to take over,

really involved in the coaching side of things and sort of maybe a protege of Klopp.

So I was surprised to see him leaving.

But yeah, Alonzo's done fantastically well

at Leverkusen.

It's still fairly early in his managerial career, so things could still go wrong.

I mean, they're called by Nevercusen for a reason as a nickname because they never win the league and obviously they're doing so well at the moment but you still aren't really 100% convinced that they'll win the Bundesliga just given the way that Bayern always seems to find a way.

And if he was to win the Bundesliga of course that would be a massive achievement that maybe then you would say yeah he can withstand the pressure of you know even a Bundesliga title race against a team like Bayern.

But it's too early to know that really at the moment isn't it and

a club as well run as Liverpool I get the sense that they've already

sort of maybe

chosen who will succeed him and it wouldn't surprise me if it was announced fairly soon.

So I don't know if, you know, given Alonso's situation at Livercuz and if he would have been open to those conversations right now,

I do think Deserbi has a really good chance as well, just the style of football.

I always get a sense with Deserbi that he's, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, but I always get the sense in his press conferences that he's maybe there for the taking.

Just in the way he sometimes comments about Brighton as like a, we're a small club or we're a project or you know we have to play young players he he says a lot of things like that in in press conferences where it's like come and get me plea type vibe he hasn't gone as far he hasn't gone as far as saying we're a this is a stepping stone i'm waiting for him to say that and then we'll then we'll know for sure quickly andy before you go um you're at the game against norwich we've mentioned the youngsters he is leaving a squad in sort of great shape and better shape than probably anyone thought at the start of this season and he could go out on this like ridiculous high right could win four trophies.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I think the one that would please him most or would be the main target would be winning the league in front of fans.

I think that would be that's what he wants.

I mean, I know his record in getting to European finals is fantastic.

So, you're saying and Liverpool are clearly favourites for the Europa League anyway.

But I think to win another Premier League in front of a full house and celebrate it properly will be

the driving ambition, I think, for the next four months as well.

I think that's the one.

Thanks for coming on Andy.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Andy Hunter there, Moseside correspondent, and we'll be back in a second with Maidstone's great win over Ipswich.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

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A proper football journalist, man.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Tom, a Maidstone fan, writes: If I was buzzing after the Stevenage game, I'm absolutely on one now.

Utter delirium among the Maidstone fans, and I don't think George Elikobe will ever have to buy a drink again.

A word also for Ipswich, who charged 10 for adults and 5 quid for children for a game that for Maidstone at least could have sold out twice over.

And for their fans, a large proportion of whom stayed behind to applaud George and his men off the pitch.

When the draw was made, there was mild disappointment.

We only drew Ipswich, but I wonder if playing in a historic old ground with a great atmosphere was actually better than playing a dictator's PR project in a soulless corporate bowl.

I certainly wouldn't have swapped today for anything.

What an absolutely brilliant day for them, Baz.

Fantastic.

It's everything you want from a cup upset.

I mean, Maidstone could very easily have been three or four and ill down inside 20 minutes.

I don't think it's...

taking away from their achievement to say that they rode their luck.

Their goalkeeper had the game of his life.

He was superb.

They ran, they ran, and they ran.

They didn't stop running.

They really worked so hard.

They had two shots on goals, scored both of them.

The first was a sensational finish from Lamar Reynolds.

Absolutely brilliant goal.

Ipswich equalised and

then you think, oh, that's it.

Then they might get a replay, but then they go and score again.

The second goal probably should have been disallowed.

I mean, it definitely should have been disallowed for a foul in the build-up, a tug on the shirt, George Fowler on Sarmiento, who scored the Ipswich goal.

And if there had been Varr, it would have been disallowed.

But we didn't have Varr, so it wasn't so great

and hard-looking.

I don't actually think Ipswich did a huge amount wrong.

They just couldn't score.

And

they played quite well.

They had 38 shots.

And then you look at the Maidstone team.

They've

Bivesh Garung, a player of Nepalese extraction, who's the son of a Gurkha.

Luca Govalin in goal, a former Brazilian under 20.

Gavin Hoyt, who's played on the same pitch as Leo Messi while representing Trinidad and Tobago.

George Galukobe, we all know, used to play for Wolves.

And apparently, half of Cameroon and half of Nepal were watching this game, tuning in with interest.

So, yeah, just a wonderful story.

And,

you know, we were obliged to say that you know

those who say the magic of the cup does no longer exist it does it very much did at portman road on on saturday um stephen says any chance we can just have an hour special on george ela kobe he he john is he's sort of one of the standout stars of this season isn't he He is, yeah, just listening back to the post-match interview with him.

To say he's a bubbly character really is underselling it, isn't it?

Although, having said that, let's go back to the cynicism of the journalist, shall we?

Uh, a colleague of mine, not from The Guardian, I should say, uh, told me that he spoke really, really well, uh, Ella Cobe.

The problem was it's for 30 minutes, and having to transcribe that is a right pain in the ass

because

this is what happens.

You see, you just give me 50 words of gold and then bullet points.

You just give me 50 words of gold, and then go, and then we can all go go home.

And Ella Coby just went for it.

Well, why not?

But yes,

and there's more to come.

There's more to come.

I remember there was one years ago.

Remember that the Cowley brothers, they're still floating around, aren't they?

I remember sitting through 45 minutes of the Cowley brothers thinking, yeah, well done, lads, but, you know, can we go home now?

I remember being at a Crystal Palace game once,

pretty tight deadline on a Saturday afternoon, and Ian Holloway went off on one.

Yes.

And it got to the stage where people were just getting up and walking off to the corner so they could finish the match.

And Holloway is just holding court for about 40 minutes.

It's like, shut up, Ian.

Jonathan, we've talked about Mason's story before, but it is worth repeating.

This is...

It's extraordinary what they're achieving, isn't it?

Yeah, and I think

without bragging, I think I'm uniquely positioned to comment on a lot of these players, having watched a lot of them in their early careers.

Yes.

And so I'm going to lap away.

And brag away.

I mean, listen, no one else is bragging about Maidstone knowledge.

This isn't a humble brag.

This is exactly what bragging should be.

I've waited six years for this.

I'm going to absolutely lap it off.

Okay, off you go.

No, but I mean, I've watched Lamar Reynolds at Brentwood Town about six years ago,

come through.

as a good example.

And I think the point is a lot of these players, like what is so magical about non-league is like a a lot of the players, the journeys they go through to get to this level and the persistence that they have to sort of continue hoping to achieve something like this one day in their lives, I suppose.

Reynolds is a great example.

Like I say, he started at Brentonwood Town.

He got a move to Newport County, I think.

Then it didn't quite work out.

He sort of moved around non-league for a long time, played at Braintree and eventually got his move to Maidstone in the summer.

And then he takes the goal like that against Ipswich Town at Portman Road.

You'd never think someone who's been at semi-pro for a lot of his life would take the goal under pressure like that in such a high-pressure situation, just dinking the keeper with his weaker foot.

It was an incredible finish.

Manny Dooku, for example, up front, he was playing in Gibraltar two weeks ago.

I think got released or left the club, basically playing for a team called, I think, Manchester 62.

And next thing you know, he's sort of starring in an incredible FA Cup adventure.

There's so many I could mention that I know personally as well some of some of the players.

So obviously please do.

Please do.

No, I won't go into too much detail, but yeah, I know some of the players personally.

So from that point of view, just knowing what they've been through in their careers and things they've had to overcome, to have a day like this is really remarkable.

And I know that, yeah, the cup does get a bit downtrodden on.

And I know there's a lot of magic of the cup cliches and things like that, but it is genuinely the only real opportunity for a lot of players to sort of have the limelight.

like the national and her limelight or even global

to a certain extent that that a lot of players search for for their whole careers if you know what what I mean.

A lot of players work really hard to get to this to this stage.

It would have been nice when the draw came out if they maybe got Wolves for the Elocobe angle.

I think there was like four teams left and the hat wasn't there and there was Man City as well somewhere along the line.

But so I think the Maidstone fans were probably a little bit disappointed with the draw that came out.

Man City or Wolves for Elocobe and then they ended up with sort of Coventry or Schiffle Wednesday.

But they'll probably go there and and and fancy themselves to to get something from the game as as crazy as it sounds.

And imagine if they were to get there.

I mean, I think it's the first non-league team to reach the last 16 since I think the

70s but I'm not entirely sure.

Blyde Spartans were

the lowest ranked team since Blyde Spartans to make the fifth round in 78 I believe.

Yeah that's it.

Was it Telford United got to the fifth round in 85 or something like that?

That sounds familiar.

This is this is sort of not in my knowledge.

I think it's Blight Spartans.

I think Barry's right.

Okay.

Jonathan, when you talk to players like this, and you know, it is worth remembering, you know, these are seriously good footballers still, right?

But genuinely, is their motivation,

I might get one day out like this, or are they, because, you know, I guess there comes a time as a non-league footballer where you go, I'm probably not going to make it into the league.

But presumably, most of the time they are aspiring and they're still aspiring to just get as high as they can.

Yeah, I think a lot of the time

you've either got players who sort of come up completely through non-league and have been been doing this the whole the whole career or you get players who maybe got released from big clubs I mean there's players in that team for example released from Crystal Palace there's players released from sort of Arsenals and

clubs like that and there's that kind of defiant streak where it's like I'm gonna I'm gonna prove that I was good enough to make it I mean you know Jacob Berkeley Edgepong in midfield he someone I know and

he played in the same team as Aaron Wembersaka and they were they were teammates at Palace and I suppose for certain players there's that that feeling that whether right or wrong, they were released maybe harshly and they never had the opportunities that they wanted.

And

there's that kind of feeling like, I'm going to make it back one day.

For some players, like you say, Max, there's that feeling of, well, I'll just play and see what happens.

But I think a lot of players that I know and speak to, there's always that dream that they'll make it eventually and a day like this will come.

And so I feel like for a lot of the players, there'll be that feeling of, yeah, you know, I.

I am good enough to make it at a certain level and I can show that I'm good enough.

And I think on days like this, it's that feeling of vindication vindication of like well I'm not that bad if you know what I mean and sometimes you know the journey of football is so unpredictable that that

you can get swallowed up and you don't know where you're going to end up and it is a massive journey but I suppose days like that kind of just reinvigorate and give the feeling that you know you're not that far away and when you look at the game I know they were sort of battered at times I mean the goalkeeper has an interesting backstory himself and you know you'd have to sort of um say that they did get away with it a little bit but a lot a lot of the players aren't that bad i don't think that there's a massive i mean it is i know there's a hundred places between them 98 places between ipswich and maidstone in the league structure but at times there's not a huge like massive gap between the standard of the players it's maybe coaching or persistence or um hunger things like that that that that determine um

the success of a player maybe so there is the ability for these players to pull off these kind of games where they're just they're on it and they can take on a championship team or take on a you know league one team so i don't think the gap's massively as big as it used to be Part of the reason for that is non-league these days,

it's very rare that you see a player who's sort of

eating pies before the game starts and is clearly like 10 pounds, you know, 10 pounds overweight or whatever.

I think it speaks to the professionalisation of like young people as well.

They don't really drink as much as maybe before.

There's more of like a gym culture than say 20 years ago, 30 years ago maybe.

You know, going to the gym is like cool now, isn't it?

For for for younger people and staying fit is like a bigger, bigger thing maybe than sort of 30, 40 years ago, I would would say, if you were looking at non-lead then,

so it's professionalized a bit more.

Um, so yeah, I mean, I could talk about it for a long time, so I'll kind of cut it there.

But basically, there's a lot of different factors interesting.

I was watching Barry's face when you said going to the gym is cool, um, and it sort of sort of glazed slight, slightly, slightly glazed.

I don't know, I think about City Right, I think that is really interesting, and also, I think that sorry, what happened to my face, I remained completely expressionless throughout.

I mean, I didn't react in any way.

Okay, I'll take it back.

You know, it's interesting that I wonder with non-league, you know, we just presume football is a sort of total meritocracy.

You know, the absolute best will get there and the second best.

And maybe there is, you know, there will be so many lucky breaks along the way that might change the whole sort of perspective of where you end up as a footballer.

But well done.

I think non-league players, they're all excellent footballers, but

they just don't do it as consistently as people who are playing at higher level or, you know, Premier League players.

I mean, that finish from Lamar Reynolds was absolutely outstanding.

And if a Premier League player did it, we'd still be saying, oh, what a goal, what a finish.

But, you know, I'm guessing he probably doesn't do that week in, week out.

Totally agree.

I think the consistency is a big part of it.

Anyway, well done to Maidstone and a fantastic day for them to Newport, who scared Manchester United.

They lost 4-2 in the end, but they got it to 2-2, didn't they?

That Will Evans goal in the 47th minute.

You were there, John.

What was that moment like?

Well, it wasn't unexpected.

It's funny, you know.

United go 2-0 up, playing well.

And I was near the United fans in a temporary stand, and they weren't larging it or lording it over Newport County because they've seen this team before.

And it was pretty much a full-strength team, apart from the goalkeeper by India,

because, you know, Kobi Mainu playing with

Casumiro is what I think Tenaga envisaged in pre-season until Mainu got injured.

But, I mean,

as I wrote in a piece

as went in the paper today, United remained just a collection of individuals, whereas Newport...

What Newport did actually is they fell for the move that United try and score from every time, which is overloud down one side, ball played across, someone shoots in from the cutback.

Yeah.

And United did that twice.

And then they kept trying to do it.

And eventually Newport thought, do you know what they're doing?

They're doing this cutback thing and started cutting out the moves.

So then the man United forward line, all blonde, by the way, fell out with each other.

And they all start, you know, digging each other out.

And

this Casimiro and Mainu, uh, dream team gets out muscled in midfield by Newport County.

And, you know, know, they scored a goal with, you know, took a deflection or whatever.

Suddenly, you're there thinking this is an FA Cup shock of all shocks, though it isn't really a shock that this Manchester United team could go through this.

And, yeah, they got away with it in the end.

But the celebrations from Anthony and Rasmus Hoyland were not.

Anthony felt like it was a World Cup semi-final.

Yeah, it wasn't it.

Not really befitting of, you know, just slotting away Newport and getting in a a coach and going out back to Manchester.

I saw Sir Dave Brelswood there, actually.

I walked past him.

There are many more gains than marginal to be made for Manchester United.

Let's credit Newport, though.

They played really, really well.

Manager Graeme Cochlan, an Irishman, great quotes after, you know, were you dreaming you were going to do it?

He just said, yeah, of course I was.

And also spoke very well about...

Premier League clubs wanting to get rid of replays.

And they spoke actually to something Jonathan was talking about how players at that level, obviously that's league two.

This is their chance to play in those in the FA Cup grants them the chance and the Premier League clubs want to take that away.

And he said, you've got big squads, you've got big money, have the replays, please.

It's what our club needs.

So, yeah,

enjoyed going there.

Rodney Parade, great fun.

Well done, Newport County, Manchester United, continue to be, well, you know what word I'm going to use.

Yeah, those watching on the BBC, they have some good lower league appreciative groaning from Danny Murphy, slightly out of the Gary Neville playbook.

Pete, amongst others, saying, Seeing as Anthony appears to have found his level, which league two side should sign him in the summer?

I wanted to ask you about Marcus Rashford, Barry.

Reportedly all for training on Friday, hours after apparently being pictured at a nightclub in Belfast.

He apparently attended Thompson's Garage nightclub on Thursday before flying home by private jet on Friday.

He went to Northern Ireland to visit his former teammate, Roshan Williams, who recently signed for Lahn FC.

Ten Hag said Rashford had stayed at Carrington to train as he recovers.

He reported ill, and the rest is an internal matter.

Because normally we are very much, look, players should be able to go and live their lives.

Taking a private jet to go to a nightclub in Belfast seems does seem a stretch, doesn't it?

When you're not really at the top of your game, I don't know how good this nightclub is, I confess.

Yeah, I mean, my clubbing days are long, long behind me.

um

and

i i just wonder like did he stop off at a chippy en route to the private the airstrip to to get like a snack box or a couple of big dirty burgers it's not his first indiscretion of that kind this season

i would be of a mind by all means go disco dancing if you want to But you've got to turn up for work in the morning, no matter what your walk of life or what your profession.

And it's if you're an underperforming player in an underperforming team,

uh, it's it's not a good look, and it's Max's own professionalism.

And he's not a kid anymore, but I don't want to be that guy who's sanctimoniously tutting someone for you know staying out too late or drinking too much.

I don't know if Marcus Rashford is a drinker or not.

Uh, maybe he

left the nightclub and went to the gym to pump some iron, like

the kids are doing these days.

But

I have heard that actually, you know, young people, they don't drink.

They just go and take steroids and pump iron, which is interesting, you know, whatever floats your boat.

But yeah, it's not a good look, is it, Marcus?

Do they all take steroids though?

I don't know.

Some of them just might, you know, go to the gym.

I have seen it, they sort of late-night gym thing, but

are steroids necessary for that, or is that?

I don't know.

It's not really my my scene, John.

Mine is Barry, you may know, you may have noticed it.

Whereas I'm juiced up to my eyeballs

on the roids.

Thompson's Garage is a bona fide Belfast clubbing institution operating seven nights a week, featuring some of the best DJs and musicians from around the world.

As Belfast's longest-running city centre nightclub with over 29 years in the game, the club has played host to some of the biggest artists in the industry, including here we go, MK, Nina Kraviz, Eats Everything, Zane Lowe, okay, I've heard of him, Alan Fitzpatrick, Red Axes, Errol Alcin, Jared Janssen, and many more.

If you said they were the, you know,

their current centre midfield for Plymouth, I'd have said fair enough.

And I know people will know this, but Errol Alkin is a is a producer, produced Duran Duran's last album, I believe, but he is also the cousin of the guy who played Roland off Grange Hill.

Well, apparently, Marcus went out two nights in a row, and I did remember, I heard the place he was in on the Wednesday night, I think it was, and I did remember it.

I can't, it's gone out of my head now, but I did remember it from my days

compiling the fortnightly gig guide for Hot Press magazine in Dublin.

That's a long time ago.

So these nightclubs in Belfast, you have to take your hat off to them for the longevity, if nothing else.

If I could describe Ten Hag's expression when he was asked three or four questions about that,

he is really not very happy with Marcus Rashford.

And I would expect not to see Rashford in the team for quite a while because

he's obviously not happy with him and deservedly so, if that's what's happened.

I thought of being in Fez Club in Cambridge when I was 21, just

standing in the dance room and then seeing an England international football.

I go, that's really, well, I don't know what you're doing here.

but anyway, happy hour closes in 10 minutes.

So let's get 30 Long Island iced teas and line them all up at the table and enjoy them.

I once saw Chris Waddle and David Hurst in a

in Sheffield.

That was good.

Me and a pal took on

Lee Sharp and Nikki Bott in a game of doubles playing pool in a

nightclub in Dublin called Lily's Bordello.

We wanted to have a bet.

So

Lee Sharp said, you know, do you want to have money on this?

So we suggested, well, we'll each put up a week of our wages against a week of your wages.

And Lee didn't go for that.

Oh, really?

I was just waiting for Jonathan to come in to tell him all the Maidstone players.

Ellie, not Lee Legends.

I just want to know

who won the match, Barry.

Myself and my mate Fiakra did.

Yes.

Oh, many congratulations.

Thank you.

And that'll do for part two.

Part Part three, we'll begin with that crowd trouble at the Hawthorne's.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Look, the first Black Country Derby with fans for 12 years between West Brom and Wolves.

Wolves won 2-0.

Soon after their second goal, in the 80th minute, fighting erupted in the Holford's lane stand.

The players were sent down the tunnel.

The game was suspended for more than 35 minutes.

It was in an area where a lot of the players' families tend to sit.

And I think there was Wolves fans or a couple of Wolves fans in that area who celebrated that goal.

West Brom player Carl Bartley was seen getting his family from the stands.

There were five arrests during the game, plus one beforehand.

At least one fan was taken away on a stretcher.

Another with blood pouring from his head was escorted away with his arms held behind his back.

A ballboy was hit on the head by a plastic bottle.

West Brom have pledged to ban for life any fan culpable in the fighting.

The club will work with West Midlands Police and the FA to fully investigate the incidents, which resulted in suspension of the game.

Any individual involved in the disorder will be subject to a club ban in addition to potential criminal investigation.

I guess, John, what is

interesting is it's so rare seeing this now that it shocks you compared to sort of what football was like when I was growing up.

I mean, it wasn't often that games were suspended for this long, but there was an air of this all the time.

And there isn't now, which I guess is a positive, but it's pretty grim.

Oh, yeah, it's grim.

And we've talked about this before.

And I always, you're fighting about football.

Come on.

It is only a game.

And we all take it seriously.

But are you really going to have to go home to your wife and explain that,

yeah, I'm going to be doing a two-stretch for hitting someone because they wear a shirt, looks like a Tesco bag, because I'm a Wolves fan.

You know,

that's the type of mentality that's involved there.

I mean, you know, there were other incidents this weekend at Port Vale.

You had

that lunatic gets on the pitch, runs after the referee, slowed down.

I noticed when he came towards the Stewards, referee showed a clean pair of heels as he ran down the...

So with that one, that maybe speaks to a bit of the targeting of referees you get in the media, I suppose, with people thinking they can go for referees.

But the West Brom Wolves scene seemed like,

yeah, an old-style rumble between fans all getting a bit excited.

When those games aren't played so often, then the tension boils up and it becomes, you know,

being someone that fights at a football match is all about a match of identity.

It's about, you know, showing you're one of the lads and all that type of thing.

Beyond that sort of, you know, Danny Dyer's Football Factory stuff, which also is one of the most hilarious programs of all times, it is, it's funny, but it's a bit sad.

And attacking players' families, well, come on.

Yeah, I wonder, Barry,

and I've thought about this a lot.

Like, one of the things that we love about football is the tribalism, right?

We can compare it to other sports.

Something that makes it great is that people are so hugely passionate.

And like,

obviously, most of us know where the line is, right?

And I'm with John, right?

It's just, it's just a game, right?

It is just a game.

But, like, we also like really love, oh, Galatasarai away, welcome to hell, you know, these kind of things, like this, these extreme, oh, look at these ultras.

Aren't this sort of mad?

Football has this thing.

And like, can you celebrate tribalism?

without expecting it at times to just go over that line because if it obviously if you move the line back further then it becomes you know like i don't know if i think about australian rules football they all everyone sits as far as i know and please correct me if i'm wrong everyone just sits together and has a nice time and that's nice but it isn't what we go to football for

yeah i mean in ireland

generally

say at a hurling match or a gaelic football match there's no segregation of fans and At inter-county level, everyone generally tends to behave themselves.

But when you go down sort of towards towards club level,

things can often boil over, and there's fights, referees get attacked, and on one famous occasion, bundled into the boot of a car and driven up a mountain.

And it's funny, you hear the stories, it's funny, but it's not funny for the people it's happening to or the people who get arrested or assaulted and whatnot.

You know, I'm not going to sit here and say that looking at a man,

a boiler, the West Brom mascot, you know, dressed as a boiler,

appealing for calm yesterday, that's funny.

It is, you know, there's no way,

but seeing someone being led away with blood pouring out of a wound in their head is not particularly funny.

But

yeah, yeah, things will occasionally boil over.

But our mate Justin Moorehouse has a good routine about

tribalism in football.

The football fans, they're all the same and they're all interested in the same thing.

But the only difference between, you know, they're separated by 20 miles or 10 miles or 30 miles and that's the only difference between them.

And they get

it wouldn't be in my nature to get wound up at a game.

You know, if my team is doing badly, I sit and I seize.

I don't get particularly animated and I, you know,

haven't swung a punch or things since I was a kid.

But

as you say, it's happened so rarely that we are quite shocked when it does boil over.

And I suppose that is a good thing.

Let's go through a few of the other games.

Man City beat Tottenham, Jonathan, on Friday night.

It was Builders the Tire, the round.

It couldn't be more exciting.

Look at these two teams who just go at each other.

It was absolutely terrible, wasn't it?

And Tottenham didn't show up at all.

The goal, which I actually thought was totally fine, but there was some controversy around the goal.

Do you think Vicario had a case there at all?

Not really, to be honest.

I think it was...

I suppose in the sort of VAR age, where

everything's a bit murky, isn't it?

Every goal is questionable.

And

in that sort of sense, maybe.

But

I kind of just want to brush over VAR.

So I'm going to say no.

No.

No, that's fine.

I wondered if he could have just had a helping hand from a teammate.

Like, couldn't you stick a, you know, know, you've got, is it Ruben Diaz, right, on, on you, just get Romero to stand up?

I mean, they could have defended it better.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's a different point, but I, I don't think it was, like, hugely controversial.

But Ruben Diaz had been targeting him all game.

So he could have, if he had a problem with it, raised it with the referee, got a teammate to help him.

But I don't think Ruben Diaz did anything wrong, and he just needed to be stronger.

Like, he got a good two hands to the ball, so just flap it elsewhere.

Yeah, I mean, I think my high point of the game was Pep Guardiola getting booked for sarcastically applauding and then trying to sort of carry off the fact that he was pretending to applaud his team by like continuing to applaud.

That's really funny.

Anyway, City are through.

Luton are through.

There'd be Everton getting to the fifth round, the FA Cup for only the second time in

11 years.

Trash account says, Gliche alert, probably, but Luton continue to blow me away.

They're so gutsy, never give up.

I can't remember wanting a team to stay up in the Premier League, have a great run of the Cup cup so much as them amazing team and spirit and it's true john isn't it like a brilliant result for them yeah i've seen a lot of luton and you never fail to be taken by yeah that the energy that they're putting in uh and the spirit that rob edwards has instilled in them that's a bad result for everton you know I mean, they need cup revenue.

They need these things and to get to lose in the last minute.

It's just Everton, isn't it?

Because, you know, with their points deduction and whatever else is coming up ahead from the latest Premier League thing, it's a very bleak season ahead for Everton.

But then again, they've got a new stadium to look forward to, too.

As an Evertonian supporting friend of mine said to me yesterday, to play Barnsley in.

Yeah, with all due respect, of course.

Absolutely.

I have massive respect for Barnsley, yeah.

Any other results you want to pick out, Baz?

There was quite a few really good goals in various ties, and we haven't time to touch on them all.

But one thing that slightly got on my wick was uh sheffield united got gubbed 5-2 by brighton and after the game chris wilder had a big moan at the ref

and he i thought he was really poor they've put him on our on for our game again to see if he's all right for the premier league the ref was sonny singill

um

and i just thought That was completely unnecessary criticism.

I don't think he did anything wrong.

I'm not sure what Wilder's problem was.

He didn't highlight any particular issues he had with the referee.

And, you know, Sheffield United are currently in the process of proving that they're not all right for the Premier League.

So, you know, why not test referees on them?

But

I don't think that's helpful at all.

And it leads to this culture of ref bashing.

You know, Sheffield United are pretty crap.

Chris Wilder has done very little to improve them since he arrived.

And for him to come out of a 5-2 defeat at home and have a goal with the ref, who, as I say, didn't do anything wrong that I noticed,

I just thought it was

poorer from Chris.

I expect better.

I was going to say, Jaden Anthony scored a fine goal for

the leads, didn't he?

And

he celebrated...

tribute to his mum who died quite recently

and then this is so bad isn't it then you get that the the referee has to book him for and he given a yellow card and you just think

you know

common sense refereeing the referees should be given the opportunity to use their discretion some sense of empathy yeah rather than this directive because i mean obviously he was he didn't want to do it or but it's it looked bad it looked bad you know goal goal scorer and book him oh but yeah it was it was a great moment great goal wonder absolutely wonderful goal eunus atkins for leicester was brilliant as well i mean oh yeah i did like their opener mark albright into jamie vardy was very 2015 old school old school but lester's mark albright and i i i wrote the little preview only 34.

yeah there's still there's still yeah i mean he's been around forever it really has

Is he still underrated?

Bournemouth were 5-0 up at halftime, and obviously it finished.

Normally, 5-0 half-time is 6-1 full-time, but they just kept it at 5-0.

So the draw has been done.

Blackburn or Wrexham, who play tonight, play Newcastle, Chelsea or Villa versus Leeds or Plymouth, Bournemouth, Leicester, Liverpool versus Watford or Southampton, Bristol City or Forest, take on Manchester United.

Wolves v.

Brighton.

Sheffield Wansdale Coventry against Maidstone, Luton versus Manchester City.

A bit of any other business.

Matt Gibson says, Dear Max and team, long time listener, enjoyed your live show in Brighton.

I've never been in contact, but it's very rare to have the opportunity to relay something remotely useful from my degree in linguistics back in the 1990s.

I just heard the exchange in the pod about Eric Dyer's Steve McLaren moment and your use, Max, of the Cockney accent whenever in a London cab.

I can confirm this is a sociolinguistic phenomenon called accommodation.

Essentially, people accommodate their speech and communication style, including accent, due to the influence of social factors such as gender, culture, ethnicity, age, occupational status.

I'm very aware when I do this myself, my wife is also also a very good case study.

There you go.

Thank you, Matt.

Mark says, if the football weekly pundits, not just today's team, are all entered into the next season of traitors, who would make the best traitor?

Barry, who do you think?

Jonathan Lew.

There we are.

A while ago.

Devious, scheming, underhand,

treacherous to his core, I think.

Do you think Wilson would be good?

I think Wilson might be quite good.

Maybe.

Yeah.

Go with Johnny Lou.

Yeah.

A while back,

we were discussing Aberdeen Angus steakhouses.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can't remember why.

It may have been because of Salt Bay.

I'm not sure.

I think I said

I don't know anyone who's ever eaten in one, but they always appear to be full.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, anyway, they have slid into my DMs, Barry.

Hi, Max.

Hope you're well, says at Angus Steakhouse.

Oh, wow.

So our ears have been burning from a recent episode of your Football Weekly podcast.

We would love to get you into one of our restaurants to try the world's best steak.

It's no joke.

We teamed up with Australian steak producers Jack's Creek to curate the Jack's Creek Black Angus Steak Menu.

We'd love to invite yourself, Barry, Will, and John, that was the lineup, to our Leicester Square restaurant to try the new menu on us, of course.

Would you be interested?

Are we now in the pocket of big steak?

Can we accept the free steak, Barry?

What do you think?

We obviously can't speak on Will Unwin's behalf, but should we meet in Leicester Square for a

Jack's Creek black angus steak?

Well, I'm not sure what the

well, I have a fair idea what the Guardian policy is on accepting.

Expect we might not be able to accept this, yeah.

And uh, I'm not sure

it would be ethically correct to

take

Angus Steakhouses up on their offer.

But if we just walked in there to show that people have walked in there and then walked out, would that prove something?

Half an hour later.

Sated.

Satid.

Smacking lips.

Yeah.

Meat dripping down our faces.

It's a bold claim to say that they have the world's best steak.

I'd like to

have my doubts.

Well, maybe we should go and pay for it with our own money.

Yeah.

Don't be so bloody daft.

Yeah.

Listen,

we welcome all listeners.

So thank you to Mr.

and Mrs.

Angus for getting in touch.

Finally, Aaron says, Good morning, Max, Barry, and the gang.

I'm a huge fan of the podcast.

Had a great time at your live show in London last year.

I discovered the pod during the dark times of empty football stadiums during the Pan E D, which is what he calls the pandemic.

That's a very odd way to describe it.

I haven't missed an episode since.

My friend Phil is also a huge fan.

I got married last year, and imagine my surprise when I listened to the pod the Monday after my wedding and did not hear one of Barry's classic wedding well wishes.

Phil sadly let me down as he couldn't be bothered to write into the pod on my behalf.

To show that I am the far better friend than Phil, I'm writing in to ask Barry, could he please wish Phil a happy birthday?

As it was his birthday at the weekend and he has no plans to get married anytime soon.

Lots of love, Aaron.

Happy birthday, Phil.

I hope you have many, many more of them.

There we are.

Thanks, and that'll do for today.

Thank you, John.

Cheers, Max.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks, Jonathan.

Thank you, Max.

Cheers, Barry.

Thanks, mate.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.

Our executive producer is Christian Bennett.

Premier League Week, so we'll be back on Wednesday.

This is The Guardian.