Pochettino goes to Wembley, goujons and Maidstone – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Speaker 1 Play is everything.

Speaker 5 Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 6 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

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Speaker 11 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. So a Liverpool Chelsea Carabao Cup final feels like that's the final every year with Manchester City winning it.

Speaker 11 Both semifinals were hanging on, a knife edge going into the second legs, but quickly fell onto the spreading bit, or whatever the opposite of that analogy is. Chelsea hit Middlesbrough for six.

Speaker 11 Could this be the turning point? Meanwhile, Liverpool edge past Fulham, who did make it interesting for the last 15 minutes, but the quadruple is still on.

Speaker 11 While we're on Cup Fever, there's an FA Cup fourth round to preview, made stoned by the non-league flag at Ipswich, while Newport County, mid-table in League Two, host Manchester United.

Speaker 11 The all-Premier League tie of the rounds these holders Man City go to Spurs.

Speaker 11 Then there's Johnny Liu's genuinely interesting FFP thoughts, a mini vote of confidence for Roy, Calvin Phillips to West Ham, and someone's written us a poem about chicken guojons.

Speaker 11 All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 11 On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning, welcome. Hello, hello, Jordan Jarrett Bryan.

Speaker 1 Yo, yo, yo.

Speaker 11 And yo, yo, yo, back to you. And hello, Johnny Lou.

Speaker 1 Hi.

Speaker 11 Let's do the Caravao Cup semifinal, second legs then, starting at Stamford Bridge. Chelsea six, Middlesbrough one.
Tom says Chelsea made it to the final, Max.

Speaker 11 But the obvious question, where do they need to strengthen to stand a chance of winning it? Speedy McGeady, is there a risk Chelsea, in fact, over-strengthened last summer?

Speaker 11 I guess, Baz, I mean, I know they were playing a championship side who didn't play very well.

Speaker 11 And I know I've asked this question before, but is this a glimpse of what Chelsea might become?

Speaker 1 God, I don't know. I hope.
I'd imagine Chelsea fans hope it's a sign of what they might become. And, you know, Ben Chilwell and Axel Dizzy were both excellent playing as full backs

Speaker 1 pushing high putting

Speaker 1 borough players under all sorts of pressure and you know that one of them is a newish signing one's a an established figure who's just back from injury and was very impressive back from injury I think we we kind of tend to forget how key the absence of Rhys James and Ben Chilwell are for Chelsea.

Speaker 1 But I wouldn't read too much into this because I was very disappointed with Middlesbrough's performance. It was revealed yesterday that, contrary to what everyone thought,

Speaker 1 two-legged semi-finals in the Carabao Cup will remain. I'm not sure the nitty-gritty of it, but it's an EFL decision.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 their chairman or chief executive, Trevor Birch,

Speaker 11 said that, you know,

Speaker 1 these two-legged semi-finals

Speaker 1 are important for EFL clubs because they make money out of them, but they also massively decrease or significantly decrease these these clubs' chances of winning these semifinals.

Speaker 1 You know, Borough beat Chelsea at the Riverside, and if it was a one-legged thing, they'd be through.

Speaker 1 But because the second leg, he always sort of worried Chelsea had overturned the deficit and my how they did it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 while Borough have nothing to be ashamed of losing against Chelsea over two legs, I'd say they'll be massively disappointed by how poor they were in that second leg because they just made it so easy for Chelsea, kept giving them the ball,

Speaker 1 played it into their hands, made stupid mistakes playing out from the back, didn't learn from them. And

Speaker 1 it was really easy for Chelsea in the end.

Speaker 11 Yeah, Johnny, Bat says there's not a whole lot you can read into this. Could you read a little bit more into it, bearing in mind we have at least some time to fill on this pod?

Speaker 12 Well,

Speaker 12 Barry mentioned this about Chilwell. I thought

Speaker 12 he was the real,

Speaker 12 the key to what Chelsea are trying to do. And if you remember the first few weeks under Pochitino, before Chilwell got injured, he was one of their key players.

Speaker 12 And he was looking like, you know, he was playing on the left wing and he was looking like he was going to be a key part of this side.

Speaker 12 And if you think back through the Pochitino teams, particularly at Spurs,

Speaker 12 the importance of those fullbacks, not just having attacking fullbacks who can sort of pop up at the back post and have this incredible engine, but having depth in those positions as well.

Speaker 12 That's always been key to how he likes to set up.

Speaker 12 And so when he got injured, Chelsea were kind of forced into, you know, he kind of had to play Colwill a left back for a long time because Thiago Silva was playing on that side and he can't, he doesn't necessarily have the engine to cover those spaces anymore.

Speaker 12 He needed to play a slightly more defensive player on that side. And it kind of affected the whole way that Chelsea wanted to build up under Pochettino.

Speaker 12 But if Chilwell is back and he's fit, and not only does that give him a really great chance of getting into the Euro 2024 squad and forcing his way into the England side, but it totally changes the complexion of how Chelsea want to attack.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 that's, I think, what we saw. Even, you know, maybe we can say that 6-1 flattered them.
You know, Middlesbrough had some injuries, they had some, I think, three cup ties,

Speaker 12 three players on international duty. So

Speaker 12 it wasn't a fair game, but it wasn't a fair reflection of where they are.

Speaker 12 And they probably want to, if the Chelsea's ownership will probably want to amortise some of those six goals over the next few games but but it was a you know it was a really impressive professional performance particularly in the way that they managed to press high and and and built play I've just got to say that I've got a Chelsea supporting father and I've highly enjoyed makes it sound like you have more than one father there like selection of father

Speaker 11 we're now talking about your Chelsea supporting one you're right my dad as opposed to the top GG yeah

Speaker 13 we were all very surprised to learn about sometimes yeah that one that one um he supports chelsea and i've had a lot of fun this year ripping the hell out of him as to how bad they are but something he's always said to me over the last 10 years and more is that and it's really annoying it's kind of his mantra we're chelsea we win trophies it's what we do and annoyingly it's like

Speaker 1 lines of trophy

Speaker 1 i i want it

Speaker 13 there's that there's that as well but it's it's just really annoying that even at their worst or their bang average, they still managed to get to finals and potentially win cups.

Speaker 13 And, you know,

Speaker 13 they've not been good this season, but they're in another final.

Speaker 13 Fair play to them. Just a quick point on Middlesbrough as well.
There was a lot of criticism about how they

Speaker 13 didn't change how they play and they kept getting caught at the back and playing from the back was really poor. I'm a big believer in, I think Pep says it as well.
And if he says it, he must be right.

Speaker 13 That there's no plan B, right?

Speaker 13 It's make plan A work, make plan a better and again and post and postacoglou who had gotten got a lot of heat for refusing to change how he played vincent company's getting it at burnley and i just really back managers that back the way they play and although middlesbrough didn't get it right i don't think the solution was for them to change how they played it was just to be better and a bit more flexible in plan a so i just wanted to make the point that i thought they got a lot of unfair criticism for trying to do what has worked for them so far just on this night it it just didn't, it wasn't executed very well.

Speaker 11 Tempted to ask what your dad, your dad's feelings towards Aston Villa, but I might park that for a second. And Barry, Pogettino said, I'm desperate to win a title here, i.e.
a trophy.

Speaker 11 In one year and a half in Paris, we won three trophies and we want to win one here. I'm desperate to win, of course, which is great revisionism for a PSG manager, isn't it? Because

Speaker 11 he famously didn't win Ligue R once, which is clearly enormous, but he's turned that into we won three trophies in one and a half years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's it's a sort of a merino-esque uh massage of the figures isn't it um yeah of course he wants to win win trophies and

Speaker 1 he he does have a

Speaker 1 you know it is constantly pointed out by his detractors that he's lost what is it two finals in

Speaker 1 in uh

Speaker 1 during his time in english football english was it two or three champions league final carabao cup final i can't remember any others so you know we have a repeat now of the carabao cup final in 2022 and indeed the FA Cup final in 2022.

Speaker 1 I think the Carabao Cup final wasn't too bad, and Liverpool won on penalties.

Speaker 1 That was the game in which Keparazabaglat was brought on for the shootout. Please don't pillboy up on

Speaker 1 whatever it is. I just called him.
I haven't said his name for quite a long time.

Speaker 1 And he ended up missing the decisive spot kick. And

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 1 Liverpool won the FA Cup final as well on penalties, and that wasn't a very good game. So, Chelsea, I suppose, a due one.

Speaker 1 I think Liverpool will probably win the final. There's an inevitability about it, seems to be, because they don't lose too many games, and

Speaker 1 but you never know.

Speaker 11 So, Liverpool threw after a one-on-draw at Craven Cottage. This game was pretty exciting after the Fulham equalisers, Johnny.

Speaker 11 I think once Liverpool scored early on, you thought that might be it, and Burton Leno should have done a lot better. But we did have a kind of last 15.

Speaker 11 Harry Wilson had that one chance. You just wanted Fulham to create a little bit more after they score.

Speaker 12 Yeah, it was interesting that I mean, I think Marco Silver afterwards said that Fulham's Fulham got too emotional.

Speaker 12 And, you know, the people who are at the ground were saying that the stadium announcer was going, like, this is history. This is our chance of history.
History could be made tonight.

Speaker 12 And, you know, you wonder whether they maybe played up that side of it, you know, a little bit in March, because Fulham haven't, you know, they haven't been at this stage.

Speaker 12 Uh, I think it's something like eight semi-finals in their history, something like that. And, you know, it's possible they just got a little bit nervy and they started really badly.

Speaker 12 And then, you know, they made a game of it in the last half hour.

Speaker 12 Harry Wilson, who I from the times I've seen him playing for Fulham, I don't know why he doesn't play more for them in the Premier League.

Speaker 12 I guess Fulham fans would have a, would have an answer to that, but a better answer to that.

Speaker 12 But yeah, Fulham really went at them in the last 20, 25 minutes in a way that made you wonder, you know,

Speaker 12 what if they had a proper go at Liverpool right from the start? Because Liverpool were, you know,

Speaker 12 it wasn't quite a full strength side, you know, that they played a lot of the kids and they played a lot of, you know, fringe players. So it was kind of a mix of youth and experience.

Speaker 12 And I actually thought it was really impressive the way they saw that game out.

Speaker 12 If you think about the lack of experience, you know, Bradley and Kwan Sarah thought had a good game.

Speaker 12 I mean, I also want to mention like that this incredible, like he sends on,

Speaker 12 Klopp sends on Bobby Clark with with seven minutes to go and that's the point at which the the ties is right on a knife edge and I just love the the trust of Klopp going to the you know Bobby Clark go on see this out like cup semi-final and he does it and he played he played really well so

Speaker 12 that I think is the the difference between these two sides just that that kind of institutional knowledge of how these um you know how to to get the job done basically it's interesting actually Jordan isn't it Johnny mentions Clark there um Connor Bradley as well Seeing young players coming into a confident team,

Speaker 11 it just, I mean, clearly, these are all very good players, but God, it helps.

Speaker 13 It does. And I think the coaching around that and the environment that's created is a massive, massive part of that.
They're having a, what I would say, a decent to good season this year.

Speaker 13 And I think having talented players who are young, and as I mentioned, they're in an environment created by the manager and the coaching staff to do their best work

Speaker 13 is essential. I thought Fulham work were,

Speaker 13 I thought Fulham, I thought Fulham were good.

Speaker 13 I was disappointed they didn't really go for it a bit earlier in the match.

Speaker 13 I thought that they kind of tried to feel like Liverpool a bit too long before going for it was my interpretation of the match.

Speaker 13 But I think had they gone for Liverpool a little bit earlier, they might have had a little bit more joy.

Speaker 1 I thought they started quite well, but like Burrough the night before, they kept giving the ball away sloppily when

Speaker 1 they should have done better. And they had two pretty good chances in the first half before Liverpool scored.

Speaker 1 One was when Pereira picked out Paulina at a corner and he he had all the time in the world to pick his spot for the volley and blasted over the bar and he should have scored.

Speaker 1 I expected it more from a player of his quality.

Speaker 1 And then I think soon after that there was an Anthony Robinson cross from the left, a real vicious cross and Queveen Kelleher got a vital touch to deny Bobby Cordoba Reid at the far post.

Speaker 1 I think if one of those had gone in, you know, Fulham might have

Speaker 1 could have the tie could have gone the other way. And then Diaz scored,

Speaker 1 you know, Jarrell Quanza is another young player who was playing for Liverpool, and he was instrumental in setting up that goal with his lovely sort of Alexander-esque, Trent Alexander Arnalesque diagonal up towards

Speaker 1 Louis Diaz. I have a theory about this game.
When Liverpool scored that goal and then half-time came, I reckon almost the entire audience will have switched over to Traitors on BBC. Right.

Speaker 1 Because it was the first night of the final week of Traitors. And it'll have been, you know,

Speaker 1 Liverpool are done. That's it.
Game over. Let's watch Traitors.
So no one will have seen Fulham's reasonably spirited fight back in the second half.

Speaker 11 Who's the favourite to win Traitors?

Speaker 13 Oh, don't spoil it, Barry. I'm two episodes behind.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Don't answer that question.

Speaker 11 Is it Gavin or Chanel? I mean, I'm not watching, so

Speaker 1 no Gavin, no Chanel. A lot of them are very, very thick.

Speaker 1 That's all I'll say. Just incredibly thick.
Right. Okay.
So the guy... who I think is going to win, although I suspect the way it's being edited, he may not.

Speaker 1 It won't be because he's incredibly clever. It's just the rest of them are just so thick.

Speaker 11 I just wonder from a Fulham perspective, is there a danger in, you know, you take this competition seriously, you play all the games, you get a bit tired, you go out in the semi-finals, no one remembers that, and so actually, you'd be better off not taking the competition seriously, or is that just a daft question?

Speaker 1 I think you have to take it seriously, don't you? If you're full of them, I mean,

Speaker 1 they're not going to get relegated, they're not going to be challenging for Europe. So, of course, they should take Cup seriously.

Speaker 11 It's been a while since a team has made a mistake with

Speaker 11 things for supporters.

Speaker 1 I think it was

Speaker 11 the Brighton ponchos of maybe five years ago that made it look like they had started a new, I don't know what, what are they called? You know, the

Speaker 11 what are the Ku Klux Klan? What's their sort of a rally?

Speaker 11 No, not a rally, you know, like, I don't know what they're, what's their home base?

Speaker 11 I'm not, I'm not, not fortunately i'm not very knowledgeable on this but bumper says was it a surprise to see fulham confirm themselves as the london branch of the kkk yes they laid out the flags in a really i mean it is it was funny because it's a moment in time when they're all waving it looked great but when they were all just laid on the seats they must have someone must have sat back and gone oh dear this really this really doesn't look very good um but anyway leicester did this i remember lester doing this a few years ago there was um they were playing a champions league game during their Champions League season and they put, you know, it was basically the same.

Speaker 12 They put white flags on all the seats, but because of the way the flags were falling, it just looked like they filled the entire King Power Stadium with very, very small clan.

Speaker 11 Tiny grand wizards.

Speaker 13 And to be fair, as you're putting the flags down the seat, that gentleman or that team wouldn't have seen it from 50

Speaker 13 meters back. So to be fair to Fulham, they wouldn't have known that until.

Speaker 11 You don't know in the sort of in the risk assessment, you don't you don't think that what will this look like from afar, do you?

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 11 Anyway, maybe the next team won't make that mistake. That'll do for part one.
Part two, we'll look ahead to the fourth round of the FA Cup.

Speaker 2 Coach, the energy out there felt different.

Speaker 3 What changed for the team today?

Speaker 4 It was the new game, Day Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 1 Play is everything.

Speaker 5 Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 6 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 4 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game. That's all for now.

Speaker 1 Coach, one more question.

Speaker 7 Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 8 A little play can make your day.

Speaker 7 Please play responsibly.

Speaker 9 Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 11 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. We normally get told off for not talking about Monday night football.
I imagine we would get told off for talking about Monday night football.

Speaker 11 It was so long ago, and Brighton and Wolves drew 0-0.

Speaker 11 James Milner did overtake Ryan Giggs to claim second in the all-time Premier League appearances list. He's now just 20 behind Gareth Barry.
So, you know, look forward to when he overtakes that.

Speaker 11 It would be some achievement from young James. FA Cup fourth round.

Speaker 11 Ipswich Maidstone. Should we start there? George Adekobe, delighted with the drawaway at Ipswich because he says it's a fantastic location geographically.
It is reachable for our Maidstone community.

Speaker 11 He says, not wrong, just one hour 33 by car. Worth noting,

Speaker 11 if you're going by train, there is a reduced service on Greater Anglia between Colchester and Ipswich.

Speaker 12 I just wonder, would it be quicker by boat? Would Maidstone to Ipswich be quicker by boat? Like shorter distance, surely?

Speaker 11 I don't know how near the water Maidstone is.

Speaker 12 Maidstone is like North Kent.

Speaker 12 Not coastal, but I mean, probably a short hop to,

Speaker 12 I don't know, maybe Shelly

Speaker 11 or Rochester. Yeah.

Speaker 12 And then, you know, you get on an oyster boat and,

Speaker 11 you know, and.

Speaker 1 Well, a Sunderland supporting pal of mine went to Ipswich a couple of weeks ago to watch Sunderland get beaten and 2-1.

Speaker 1 And I think there was rail difficulties then, and he had to do quite a large chunk of the journey on a rail replacement bus. And that would be enough to put me off going, definitely.

Speaker 11 Producer Joel says, you're you're looking at the Tilbury Ferry from Gravesend to Essex,

Speaker 11 but can't be quicker. Anyway, I mean, I don't expect Barry, you know, everything about Maidstone United, but it's not a terrible draw for them.

Speaker 11 I mean, they would have liked a bigger side, and Ipswich are going well. And, you know, you never know.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I guess they're happy enough with Ipswich, but they would have liked a home draw, obviously. And

Speaker 1 I mean, this fourth-round draw, there's five all-Premier League ties, four all-championship ties,

Speaker 1 and then

Speaker 1 Maidstone are away, Newport are at home, Wrexham are away, publicity starved Wrexham, who were on the TV on Monday night. Their game against Blackburn is on Monday.

Speaker 1 And this round, like the last one, is spread out for over Thursday through to Monday, which is,

Speaker 1 you know, I suppose it doesn't really matter, does it? But what was, oh, Maidstone, yes. Well, I think we've spoken about their history after their third round win.
You know, they've really

Speaker 1 had it tough, were slung out of the league, ended up playing in the fourth division of the Kent Counties League, worked their way back up to the National League, then got relegated after a couple of seasons.

Speaker 1 And for a while, they didn't have a ground. We had their chief executive on...
the radio the day after the third round win. Tremendously entertaining, man.
Some great stories.

Speaker 1 He seems to have led a very full and eventful life in football.

Speaker 11 And he's been Bill Williams, was his name.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Bill has been connected with the club for decades, you know, been there for the very worst of times, and now he's there for the very best of times. So

Speaker 1 good luck to them.

Speaker 11 What chance do you give Newport County over Manchester United, Jordan? This seems like

Speaker 11 if the round is ripe for an upset, this is probably the one that people want, right?

Speaker 13 You'll want it, yeah.

Speaker 13 I don't think it will happen, unfortunately.

Speaker 13 It'll be hilarious if it did happen, but

Speaker 13 I think United

Speaker 13 are kind of in that kind of groove now where they know they're teetering

Speaker 13 on the brink. And if they lose games like this, it's going to just fall to a new low, a new level of

Speaker 13 embarrassment. So I expect them to get the job done here.

Speaker 11 Bristol City, Nottingham Forest, Liverpool, Norwich. I can only see Louis Suarez scoring eight in this game.
Bournemouth, Swansea, and West Brom Wolves, the other sort of possible upsets.

Speaker 11 Spurs, Man City, probably the tie of the round, Johnny. Certainly from an all-Premier League point of view, Madison might be back for Spurs.
It should be an open game.

Speaker 11 Shouldn't it be 3-3 at the Etihad? Man City have never scored at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. And you just sense that when they break that duck, they will really break that duck.

Speaker 12 They've famously had a penalty in the first leg of that Champions League quarterfinal, which Aguero missed.

Speaker 12 It's an annoying one for City because they are obviously, you know, they've got a huge kind of slate of league fixtures coming up and players that they are trying to, that Guardiola will be trying to ease back into the side, you know, whether it's Haaland trying to get

Speaker 12 or De Bruyne.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 he would probably have wanted something a little bit easier than this.

Speaker 12 But going to Spurs, especially Spurs with their, I don't know, is it kind of, you know, parodic to call it cup heritage these days? Because they haven't actually won the thing since 1991.

Speaker 12 But there is, I think, an expectation, particularly after the way Spurs went out of the Carabao Cup, that they're going to have a.

Speaker 12 I think Spurs fans are expecting them to have a pretty solid tilt at the Cup this season. And especially if they beat City, they will genuinely believe they can go on and win it.

Speaker 12 And they'll have a proper go. Obviously, as we know, Apostakogu side will.
They will almost certainly put out a full strength or nearly full strength side. Madison might be back.

Speaker 12 I think La Celsa might be out, but generally a pretty full strength side.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 it should be an incredible game. I mean, I don't know if we're talking 2004 levels, but it's like it's coming up to the 20th anniversary of that famous 4-3 game, right? Which I,

Speaker 11 you know, the one-John Mackenheader.

Speaker 12 The John Macken game. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 They come back

Speaker 12 from 3-0 down.

Speaker 12 And so, yeah, I mean, all the ingredients are there. I think it's what, Friday? It's Friday night, right?

Speaker 12 That's probably the tie of the round.

Speaker 1 It's interesting that it was Gary Mabbitt who paired Spurs with Manchester City and the look of horror on his face when he saw what he'd done.

Speaker 1 It's not the first time he's done possibly irreparable harm to Tottenham's chances of winning the FA Cup. Let's just say, poor old Gary.

Speaker 11 What does your heart tell you is going to happen in this, Jordan?

Speaker 13 I think Spurs might do it.

Speaker 13 I agree with Johnny. I think Spurs are going to really, I think they've put a lot of emphasis this year in wanting to take the FA Cup seriously.
I think they know they need a cup.

Speaker 13 They do have a decent record of recent times against Manchester City. I don't think it will be because City are poor.
I just think Spurs will turn up.

Speaker 13 And I take no joy in saying that. But

Speaker 13 I'll go for Spurs.

Speaker 11 The British billionaire Joe Lewis pleaded guilty on Wednesday to charges that he used insider training scheme to enrich friends and associates and apologised to a judge. I'm so embarrassed.

Speaker 11 I apologise to the court for my conduct, he said. He founded Enix Sport, the company that owns the vast majority of shares in Spurs.

Speaker 11 In a statement last year to the Athletic, a Spurs spokesman said, The owner of Tottenham Hot Spur is Enoch with majority control held by a family discretionary trust, of which Joe Lewis is not a beneficiary.

Speaker 11 He ceased to be a person with significant control in the club in October 2022.

Speaker 11 This is a U.S. legal matter unconnected with the club, and as such, we have no further comment.

Speaker 11 The Lewis Family Trust effectively controls just over 60% of the club's shares.

Speaker 11 His guilty plea, according to The Athletic, does not therefore impact the day-to-day running of the club or give them problems with the Premier League owners and directors' tests.

Speaker 11 Is it convenient, Johnny, that Joe Lewis became no longer the owner of Tottenham at around the time this case began?

Speaker 12 Yeah, well, that famous defence, like that, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Speaker 12 We don't obviously have the time to go into it here, but if you look at Joe Lewis's history, you know,

Speaker 12 business history, some of the stuff he's done, the business dealings, there's not a lot to feel proud of there for Spurs fans.

Speaker 12 I think Spurs fans are pretty quick to talk about other clubs' owners,

Speaker 12 whether it's Newcastle or City, or they're very quick to point the finger at other clubs for where their money comes from and how it's been earned.

Speaker 12 And I think this is just a reminder that nobody is holier than now on this.

Speaker 11 Ed Aaron's writing regarding Roy Hodgson, he understands Roy is set to remain in charge of Crystal Palace for next week's game against Sheffield United after holding talks with Steve Parrish, the chairman after the Arsenal defeat.

Speaker 11 That and games against Brighton and Chelsea will be crucial in determining his future.

Speaker 11 So a stay of execution, I guess. Calvin Phillips has joined West Ham on loan with an option to buy.
That seems like a good idea, Barry, doesn't it, for all parties?

Speaker 1 Just getting out of Man City is a good idea for Calvin Phillips because his career has really stagnated since he moved there, despite the fact that he's won a treble

Speaker 1 last season.

Speaker 1 I'll be honest,

Speaker 1 I suppose I have to say, with the greatest respect to West Ham, I thought he'd go somewhere a bit better, a more elite club. But he just needs to get playing football, doesn't he? And

Speaker 1 David Moyes is clearly very keen on him.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure he's exactly what West Ham need,

Speaker 1 but they are certainly what he needs.

Speaker 11 I mean, interestingly, you say he could have gone somewhere better. I wonder, Jordan, if everyone's fit, I know Picator's out for a bit,

Speaker 11 but does he even start for West Ham with Edson Alvarez and James Ward Prouse just behind Paquetta?

Speaker 13 I don't think he walks into that start in 11, but I definitely think he's more than capable of competing to get

Speaker 13 into that team. I personally think this move, a bit like Jordan Henderson as well, is driven by the fact that the third spot in the England team for this Euro Summers isn't locked down.

Speaker 13 I think we know Bellingham and Rice will start. And I think they would have gone to the bone with the the squad anyway.

Speaker 13 But I reckon Phillips and Henderson are both thinking to themselves, I can start potentially in that team

Speaker 13 in a Euros where England could win it. He needs to obviously get himself, as you mentioned, into the West Ham team first of all.
But I don't see, I think that's, I can see that happening.

Speaker 13 And I disagree with Barry slightly. I'm not so sure.
he could have got a bigger team than West Ham. I think West Ham is probably the kind of level of where Calvin Phillips is.

Speaker 13 What kind of of club, Barry, was you thinking he could have potentially moved to?

Speaker 1 Well, I think Barcelona are crying out for a player of his qualities,

Speaker 1 but then there's the.

Speaker 12 No,

Speaker 12 there was some talk of Barcelona wanting to want a little cut price deal for him, right?

Speaker 1 But the problem there, I suppose, is that Citigroup owned Girona, who are top of the La Liga, and would they want to help Barcelona out? Possibly, you know, probably not,

Speaker 1 considering the lofty position in which Girona finds themselves.

Speaker 1 What there was talk of him maybe going to Newcastle as well.

Speaker 1 West Ham are higher in the league table than Newcastle, but you know, the Newcastle project in inverted commas

Speaker 1 is probably more ambitious than the West Ham one.

Speaker 1 So, well, yeah, West Ham's all right. You know, he just needs to get playing and try and get himself back in the English team.
You're smirking, Max. Why are you smirking?

Speaker 11 I just like

Speaker 11 sort of damning thank praise for West Ham, you know, this club with years of history, you know, who won a European trophy.

Speaker 1 And they said, well, they're all right.

Speaker 11 I mean, I think you're right. That's sort of about how good they are.
It just, it sounded quite flippant. That's why I that's why I was laughing.

Speaker 1 No, well, to be fair, they have won silverware,

Speaker 1 lots of silverware since Newcastle last won silverware. But, you know, Newcastle are the richest club in the world.
Yeah. But

Speaker 1 are comically hamstrung by the fact that they can't spend any of their money.

Speaker 11 Well, you mentioned Newcastle, and they turned down quite a big bid for Trippier, more than they paid for him, considering he's 33. They've turned down bids for Callum Wilson.

Speaker 11 Now, Miguel Almoron is subject of interest from Al-Shabaab in the Saudi league.

Speaker 11 Worth noting, they're not owned by Piff al-Shabaab

Speaker 11 directly.

Speaker 11 Johnny, your...

Speaker 12 thoughts on that potential transfer? Yeah, well, I mean, this is kind of the

Speaker 12 official version of events, and which is also, I think, the official version that is

Speaker 12 that, well, it's also the version that most of the Newcastle-based journalists have come up with through their independent digging.

Speaker 12 So I think we can assume this is, you know, this is what's actually happening. Basically, Almoron, you know, Newcastle needs to comply with fair play

Speaker 12 for financial fair play.

Speaker 12 So

Speaker 12 Almoron is surplus to requirements. He's, you know, he's not good enough for that team anymore, but not so surplus to requirements requirements that he wouldn't command like a really strong bid.

Speaker 12 You know, they're not going to get low-balled

Speaker 12 for someone like Al-Mu'wa. You know, they're not desperate to get to him.
He's still, you know, part of the,

Speaker 12 he was, you know, key part of the squad that qualified them for the Champions League last season. And so a bid has come in from Al-Shabaab,

Speaker 12 who I think

Speaker 12 is president. I mean, they're not one of the PIF-owned clubs, but they are one of the biggest clubs in the Saudi pro league, and their president

Speaker 12 has come from a prominent family of Saudi businessmen. So, obviously, would have done lots of deals with the state, through the state.

Speaker 12 Not this,

Speaker 12 I'm not assuming that any kind of deal has been done here, but basically, a bid has come in, and this bid is not, you know, it's not like a low-ball first bid.

Speaker 12 You know, normally, first bids are quite derisory, right? You know, you know that they're desperate to sell, but no, this bid has been, an agreement has already been made that they've agreed a fee.

Speaker 12 So, it's like a bid that it's not

Speaker 12 so low that they would reject it or negotiate it or they go through some sort of public protracted bargaining process. No, they've just accepted that bid, but it's not, it's fair market value.

Speaker 12 It's not like

Speaker 12 it's not so big that it would be kind of

Speaker 12 suspicious

Speaker 12 under the fair market regulations of the profit and sustainability rules.

Speaker 12 So, I mean, it's very lucky for Newcastle, really, that they've managed to a player who they didn't want to sell, but also had to sell,

Speaker 12 somebody's come up with a bid for him that is the perfect bid. It's pitched at the perfect level that is fair market value, but not so low that they would have to reject it and negotiate a higher one.

Speaker 12 So, I mean, that's just a very fortunate. That's the official version of events, anyway.

Speaker 12 And I think we should all accept that official version of events, you know, if we value the structural integrity of our bones.

Speaker 11 While we're on FFP and PSR and all the charges, Johnny, you actually wrote.

Speaker 11 I sound surprised. Your pieces are good, but like an interesting piece on FFP is quite an achievement.

Speaker 11 And I will read a bit out because I thought it was interesting. We're fighting in 2024 the battles that should have been fought in 2014 and 2004 or even earlier.

Speaker 11 Decisions that were bought, shirt, ignored years ago, and now coming home to roost.

Speaker 11 The unregulated free-for-all that allowed first the oligarchs and then the venture capitalists and then the state actors to claim a piece of our turf.

Speaker 11 Players signed for ridiculous sums by sporting directors directors and owners who are now long gone. The decision to let the Super League breakaway club slide back into the competition with a paltry

Speaker 11 £3.7 million fine for their trouble. Do you think right now these charges are kind of a watershed moment? Or your piece was basically saying

Speaker 11 it feels

Speaker 11 even if the Premier League are doing the right thing by these charges, and I'm not saying they are, I'm not saying you're saying they are, the fact that they are doing it still feels not quite right.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I mean, the problem with this debate, you know, so to call it, is that both sides kind of have a point in that obviously you need some kind of financial regulation to stop unregulated overspending, but you can also very strongly argue that the Premier League have no kind of certainly no moral authority to

Speaker 12 or trust or the required trust to administer those regulations. I think both sides kind of have a point here.

Speaker 12 This is the you know the same Premier League who for decades basically turned a blind eye to this stuff, who built the entire brand of the Premier League on

Speaker 12 no questions asked,

Speaker 12 come and bring your money to the Premier League,

Speaker 12 stuff the coffers

Speaker 12 and buy whoever you want, do whatever you want, we won't ask any questions. And so now for the Premier League to then say, well,

Speaker 12 we're going to stamp down hard on these,

Speaker 12 slightly smaller clubs, not the big clubs, but we're going to punish Everton and Nottinghams first.

Speaker 12 You can see why fans of those clubs are like, hang on,

Speaker 12 this is a little bit rich and it's a little bit hypocritical.

Speaker 12 And so, yeah,

Speaker 12 I don't necessarily know what the answer is beyond a proper regulator with actual teeth who can say to

Speaker 12 state owners, no, you're not doing that, or saying to owners like Dai Young at Reading, this is not your club anymore. We are literally taking this club off your hands.

Speaker 12 And unless a regulator has those kinds of powers, then we are basically just, you know, we are continuing to fight the battles of 10, 20 years ago,

Speaker 12 trying to regulate a game that has already been warped and bent and destabilized by the actions that were taken, you know, a generation ago.

Speaker 11 All right, that'll do for part two.

Speaker 11 We'll do any other business in part three.

Speaker 2 Coach, the energy out there felt different.

Speaker 3 What changed for the team today?

Speaker 4 It was the new game, Day Scratches from the California Lottery.

Speaker 1 Play is everything.

Speaker 5 Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 6 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 4 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game. That's all for now.

Speaker 7 Coach, one more question: Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 8 A little play can make your day.

Speaker 7 Please play responsibly.

Speaker 9 Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Speaker 11 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. An update on the racist abuse of Mike Mannion, the AC Milan keeper.
Four Udanazi fans have been banned for life by the club.

Speaker 11 Udonesi can confirm it's identified four further individuals relating to the incident of discrimination towards Mike Mannion. These individuals will be banned from the stadium for life.

Speaker 11 Udones have been ordered to play one match behind closed doors, Jordan.

Speaker 11 Troy Townsend, our friend, was said, oh, the old match behind closed doors routine. We are tired of it all, tired.
We, those most affected, he says, are tired of it all, tired.

Speaker 11 It's behind closed doors never the answer now.

Speaker 11 Should it be more severe? Should it be more games behind closed doors? Or is that a bad idea?

Speaker 13 Yeah, I think the problem that Troy has with, and many people have with behind closed doors, is the amount of games. So obviously a club will lose revenue if they don't have fans in the ground, right?

Speaker 13 But being banned for having fans in for one game, the revenue loss there is minimal.

Speaker 13 If it was going to be 10 games behind closed doors, 15 games, then, you know, I don't want to speak for Troy, but he may well feel that is a bit more of a deterrent.

Speaker 13 I've got two quick points I want to make on this. People often talk about fines

Speaker 13 not being the answer because football clubs are so rich. And I've maybe said that myself, but I'm going to stretch a point here to make my point.

Speaker 13 It's the amount of fine, the amount of money that they are fined, right?

Speaker 13 So, if there was a rule that said, if your club is deemed to have, you know, I don't know, plays players who have racially abused someone or fans who have racially abused someone, there's a 60 million pound fine, then that would put a lot of clubs out of business.

Speaker 13 That could be a deterrent. So, I'm exaggerating a point to make a point.
Fining clubs isn't necessarily not the answer. It's the amount that these clubs often find, which makes it laughable.

Speaker 13 And if I could make a second, almost parallel point in regards to off the field of play, you know, what could be done.

Speaker 13 You, Max, and producer Joel invited me on to the Guardian Football Weekly for my first ever appearance on here a couple of weeks after George Floyd had been murdered. I was on with Troy that one.

Speaker 13 We had a really interesting discussion around what sports media and indeed the wider world can do to better race relations. We had a really good chat.

Speaker 13 I think you heard me on Talk Sport the week before talking about the same thing. And I called out Talk Sport on Talksport about what they need to do and rah, rah, rah.

Speaker 13 And on the Guardian that episode, I mentioned also the Guardian could do a lot more to invite black contributors onto the podcast to talk about these issues, not just on when, sorry, talk about footballing issues and not just about racism in football.

Speaker 13 And to be fair to the Guardian, you've done that. I've been on the pod now for three years and I'm very, very, very grateful and thankful.
And I enjoy coming on the pod.

Speaker 13 I think there's a percentage of the sports media industry that's also improved in that we are able to have credible voices talk about this issue in a way that is from the voices of people who are affected by racism in this sport.

Speaker 13 But also, I think in our media, and I think this wider media problem, is that we're still having this discussion of, is football racist?

Speaker 13 In the same way I hear certain radio stations ask the question, is Britain racist? And that for me is very problematic because

Speaker 13 it makes me think that isn't the question. We're past that.
But

Speaker 13 we're really past it. The question should be, what are we prepared to do to eradicate racism from the country? But in regards to this podcast, football.

Speaker 13 That's the discussion we need to be having here.

Speaker 13 And I think in terms of off the field of play, what we as journalists can do is ensure that when we have podcasts, when we have radio stations, we have TV programmes, we are having the right people discuss these issues.

Speaker 13 And I just wanted to kind of make the point that I think since my first appearance on the podcast, I've seen so much improvement in where the media has

Speaker 13 spoken about this issue of racism in football with the people that actually know what it's like to be racially abused um so it's a very long-winded way of me kind of applauding the guardian football weekly and some parts of our media but other parts of our media i think are still well behind because they're still having that question of is football racist and for me that is an issue because we're just well past that that isn't the question no i i guess i guess what udanese would say is we found who we found the culprits we've banned them for life

Speaker 13 that's what we should do that's what that is what they should do but i i think

Speaker 13 I think they should still be, I still hold clubs responsible for the fans that are in their, that follow their football club. That maybe seem harsh, sounds harsh.

Speaker 13 And a lot of people take issue with the possible points deduction. Oh, why should we all feel the brunt of

Speaker 13 a few idiots? But I'm really sorry. I think a serious issue requires serious consequences.
And if we all have to feel the brunt of that for the minority, then I'm sorry. But that is where we are.

Speaker 13 Because my response is, what's the alternative?

Speaker 11 Or in the sense that it creates an anti-racist environment at the club.

Speaker 12 Right. And, you know, for a Schedortman, for example,

Speaker 12 they proactively, you know, educate fans on, for example, the Holocaust or anti-Semitism. You know, they run courses, they run visits to Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

Speaker 12 They try and proactively, before an incident happens, they try and create a culture that says racism is not tolerated. This isn't us, this is not who we are.
And

Speaker 12 if you could do anything like that, you are not one of us. Doing that work

Speaker 12 in a proactive way, instead of reacting to the incident, and I agree that

Speaker 12 identifying and banning fans is a lot further than actually a lot of other teams are prepared to go, especially

Speaker 12 when it puts them into conflict with their own ultras. So, fair enough, that their reaction has been fine, but

Speaker 1 it's

Speaker 12 what was the environment, what was the culture that allowed these incidents to happen in the first place?

Speaker 12 And I think, you know, the principle of collective responsibility means that Udene, they do have to take some share of the blame for that as well.

Speaker 11 Moving on to AFCON, and thanks to everyone who enjoyed the special that we did on Afcon. And yeah, it went out very well.
And it was a really fun panel. We will do another one.

Speaker 11 We've got one soon booked in, Producer Joel says. It has been so good.
So many shocks, late goals.

Speaker 11 It is worth pointing out, though, that yesterday, it is a real shame that Hakim Ziech scored for Morocco, because otherwise we would have had Namibia nil Mali nil, South Africa nil, Tunisia nil, Tanzania nil, DR, Congo nil, Zambia nil, Morocco nil, but Morocco spoiled it by scoring one, although their group is the best, because only Morocco have won a match in the group.

Speaker 11 Uh, Congo came second with three points, three draws, and Zambia third, two points. Uh, Tanzania on two as well.
But yes, it's good to see nought in the win column of three teams.

Speaker 11 The last 16s begin on saturday uh jim says thoughts on eric dyer going full steve mclaren uh he made his debut coming on at half time in a 1-0 win over union berlin for bayern um i don't know if you've seen this clip barry have you uh has anyone seen i i have yeah it's good fun isn't it he went a bit hello hello didn't he um he hasn't been there very long i mean that's the amazing thing isn't it it's literally like you just land there and you just can't help yourself i suppose i go cockney when i get in a taxi so it's the same thing really isn't it you just start talking like the person who's talking to you it's a basic sign of humanity isn't it that it shows that you kind of empathize with your audience i think you know it's um

Speaker 11 this this stuff gets gets slightly unfairly ridiculed because i think you know trying to adjust your uh your message or your tone to your audience is is is actually it's quite a nice thing to do yeah good on eric oscar says dear max and the gang i can't comment on the current spate of rushtoning in vera yes this is off the back of a rushton family appearing in vera and whether that is just a coincidence or they're big Football Weekly fans, I have it on excellent authority that the just-published murder mystery, Hell and Death, or Hella and Death, contains a series of clues or possibly red herrings in homage to a certain pundit's obsession with crime, including a back issue of The Blizzard.

Speaker 11 There's also a character in it called Wilson. For the record, this is a shameful coincidence and should not be taken as a reason to inflate his ego still further.

Speaker 11 Yours with love, Oscar Jensen, listener since 2014 and author of the just-published murder mystery, Hella and Death. Yeah.
Anyway, go and buy Oscar's book. David says, hi, Max and the gang.

Speaker 11 My best friend Shaka, also a listener of the pod, is getting married on the 27th of January, i.e., on Saturday, to his partner, Emma. I was just hoping for a vintage Barry message.

Speaker 11 I think he'll be more enthused about this one. As whilst love is a factor, another reason is that being married means they get stuff cheaper, i.e., rental cars, when they visit America.

Speaker 11 True love that. Shaka and Emma.
Baz, away you go.

Speaker 1 David's made a schoolboy error here because he's given me nothing to work with just that shaker is tight and

Speaker 1 uh he's only marrying emma for the financial breaks that their uh nuptials will will bring i i believe you get tax breaks as well if you're married that you wouldn't otherwise get then there's pensions stuff like that

Speaker 1 uh widow's pension you know you wouldn't get that uh emma wouldn't get that if Shaka didn't get it.

Speaker 12 I think it takes like 30 or 40 years of those benefits to pay off the widow's pension is a really huge case.

Speaker 11 That's an odd place to go to start with, isn't it? Seems quite far, hopefully, quite far in the future, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 David hasn't told us how old Shaka and Emma are. That's a very good company in their early 60s.

Speaker 1 So, I mean,

Speaker 1 I appreciate that many see me in on my role on Football Weekly as some sort of dancing bear who will perform on on request but i really need more material to work with oh fine but it's only in two days can you not just at least wish them some happiness yeah

Speaker 11 i hope they're very happy together for as long as the marriage lasts yeah uh speaking of uh being the football weekly dancing bear um i can't i think it was off the back of cristiano ronaldo saying uh he i'm 44 and i look great or how well we're 39 whatever he is ergonomics says when will i be able to buy the i'm 51 soon and I look like a sack of shit t-shirt.

Speaker 11 Your comment to that, Barry? Maybe we'll add them to Football Weekly merchandise.

Speaker 11 Jordan, you've got a new podcast. You're allowed to plug it here.
Is it good?

Speaker 13 I think it's very, very good. Thank you very much.
It's me and three mates. It's called Not for Clicks.

Speaker 13 It's football centered, but it's also sports. So we look at other sports and discuss.
what's happening other sports. We don't really focus too much on games.

Speaker 13 So there's no competition with the Guardian Football Weekly. We more kind of focus on issues, than actual game-to-game stuff.
And it's just four guys having a laugh.

Speaker 13 And as you do on here,

Speaker 13 and let me push my anti-villa agenda, it's basically an hour of that on my podcast over there.

Speaker 11 But it's not for clicks. I mean, it's not for clicks.
No one gets accused of clickbait in the responses to this podcast more than you. But, you know, it's good you've had an about turn here.

Speaker 11 Thank you very much.

Speaker 11 Finally, Rian has written us a poem about chicken Goujons. The email was marked, marked urgent, please read.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 11 In a pub so snug with laughter aglow, Barry and Max, friends in the know, a platter arrived, a feast to be, chicken goujons, crispy and free.

Speaker 11 Barry's wit, sharp as a knife, Max's humour, the spice of life. They shared the joy in every bite.
They shared the joy in every bite. Goujons dipped in tails so light.

Speaker 11 As crispy crumbs danced in the air, friendship flourished beyond compare. Barry and Max, a duo so grand in Chicken Goujon's, they found a strand, says Rion.

Speaker 11 From Rion in Manchester.

Speaker 12 It's like the Iceland Christmas advent.

Speaker 11 Is Chicken Goujon's... That's not Urban Dictionary, Barry, for something, is it?

Speaker 1 Not that I'm aware of. If his poem was called Alabama Steamboat, then

Speaker 1 I'd have cut you off literally doors. Okay, well, are we in some way, do we have some connection to chicken gujons

Speaker 1 that I've completely forgotten about?

Speaker 11 I don't think so. I mean, I'd happily share

Speaker 11 a platter of chicken gujons with you, Barry, next time we're in the same room.

Speaker 1 I was at home in Burr last week visiting Maya Glendenning, and we had no electricity the first day of my

Speaker 1 uh

Speaker 1 because the men were fixing the pylons on our street and electricity pylons as opposed to yeah, the pylons we're used to, yes, social media pylons.

Speaker 1 Uh, so I, yeah, I took Ma out for lunch, and I had scampy rather than chicken glujons. So if he could write a poem about scampy, then

Speaker 1 I'm here to

Speaker 11 think it would be more fitting.

Speaker 11 I mean, that really will do for today.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 11 thank you so much for your time. Thanks, Barry.
Thank you, Max. Thanks, Jordan.
Cheers, mate. Thanks, Johnny.
Thanks for having me. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Speaker 11 Our executive producer is Max Sanders.

Speaker 1 is the Guardian.