Pochettino goes to Wembley, goujons and Maidstone – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

So a Liverpool Chelsea Carabao Cup final feels like that's the final every year with Manchester City winning it.

Both semifinals were hanging on, a knife edge going into the second legs, but quickly fell onto the spreading bit, or whatever the opposite of that analogy is.

Chelsea hit Middlesbrough for six.

Could this be the turning point?

Meanwhile, Liverpool edge past Fulham, who did make it interesting for the last 15 minutes, but the quadruple is still on.

While we're on Cup Fever, there's an FA Cup fourth round to preview, made stoned by the non-league flag at Ipswich, while Newport County, mid-table in League Two, host Manchester United.

The all-Premier League tie of the rounds these holders Man City go to Spurs.

Then there's Johnny Liu's genuinely interesting FFP thoughts, a mini vote of confidence for Roy, Calvin Phillips to West Ham, and someone's written us a poem about chicken guojons.

All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning, welcome.

Hello, hello, Jordan Jarrett Bryan.

Yo, yo, yo.

And yo, yo, yo, back to you.

And hello, Johnny Lou.

Hi.

Let's do the Caravao Cup semifinal, second legs then, starting at Stamford Bridge.

Chelsea six, Middlesbrough one.

Tom says Chelsea made it to the final, Max.

But the obvious question, where do they need to strengthen to stand a chance of winning it?

Speedy McGeady, is there a risk Chelsea, in fact, over-strengthened last summer?

I guess, Baz, I mean, I know they were playing a championship side who didn't play very well.

And I know I've asked this question before, but is this a glimpse of what Chelsea might become?

God, I don't know.

I hope.

I'd imagine Chelsea fans hope it's a sign of what they might become.

And, you know, Ben Chilwell and Axel Dizzy were both excellent playing as full backs

pushing high putting

borough players under all sorts of pressure and you know that one of them is a newish signing one's a an established figure who's just back from injury and was very impressive back from injury I think we we kind of tend to forget how key the absence of Rhys James and Ben Chilwell are for Chelsea.

But I wouldn't read too much into this because I was very disappointed with Middlesbrough's performance.

It was revealed yesterday that, contrary to what everyone thought,

two-legged semi-finals in the Carabao Cup will remain.

I'm not sure the nitty-gritty of it, but it's an EFL decision.

And

their chairman or chief executive, Trevor Birch,

said that, you know,

these two-legged semi-finals

are important for EFL clubs because they make money out of them, but they also massively decrease or significantly decrease these these clubs' chances of winning these semifinals.

You know, Borough beat Chelsea at the Riverside, and if it was a one-legged thing, they'd be through.

But because the second leg, he always sort of worried Chelsea had overturned the deficit and my how they did it.

And

while Borough have nothing to be ashamed of losing against Chelsea over two legs, I'd say they'll be massively disappointed by how poor they were in that second leg because they just made it so easy for Chelsea, kept giving them the ball,

played it into their hands, made stupid mistakes playing out from the back, didn't learn from them.

And

it was really easy for Chelsea in the end.

Yeah, Johnny, Bat says there's not a whole lot you can read into this.

Could you read a little bit more into it, bearing in mind we have at least some time to fill on this pod?

Well,

Barry mentioned this about Chilwell.

I thought

he was the real,

the key to what Chelsea are trying to do.

And if you remember the first few weeks under Pochitino, before Chilwell got injured, he was one of their key players.

And he was looking like, you know, he was playing on the left wing and he was looking like he was going to be a key part of this side.

And if you think back through the Pochitino teams, particularly at Spurs,

the importance of those fullbacks, not just having attacking fullbacks who can sort of pop up at the back post and have this incredible engine, but having depth in those positions as well.

That's always been key to how he likes to set up.

And so when he got injured, Chelsea were kind of forced into, you know, he kind of had to play Colwill a left back for a long time because Thiago Silva was playing on that side and he can't, he doesn't necessarily have the engine to cover those spaces anymore.

He needed to play a slightly more defensive player on that side.

And it kind of affected the whole way that Chelsea wanted to build up under Pochettino.

But if Chilwell is back and he's fit, and not only does that give him a really great chance of getting into the Euro 2024 squad and forcing his way into the England side, but it totally changes the complexion of how Chelsea want to attack.

And

that's, I think, what we saw.

Even, you know, maybe we can say that 6-1 flattered them.

You know, Middlesbrough had some injuries, they had some, I think, three cup ties,

three players on international duty.

So

it wasn't a fair game, but it wasn't a fair reflection of where they are.

And they probably want to, if the Chelsea's ownership will probably want to amortise some of those six goals over the next few games but but it was a you know it was a really impressive professional performance particularly in the way that they managed to press high and and and built play I've just got to say that I've got a Chelsea supporting father and I've highly enjoyed makes it sound like you have more than one father there like selection of father

we're now talking about your Chelsea supporting one you're right my dad as opposed to the top GG yeah

we were all very surprised to learn about sometimes yeah that one that one um he supports chelsea and i've had a lot of fun this year ripping the hell out of him as to how bad they are but something he's always said to me over the last 10 years and more is that and it's really annoying it's kind of his mantra we're chelsea we win trophies it's what we do and annoyingly it's like

lines of trophy

i i want it

there's that there's that as well but it's it's just really annoying that even at their worst or their bang average, they still managed to get to finals and potentially win cups.

And, you know,

they've not been good this season, but they're in another final.

Fair play to them.

Just a quick point on Middlesbrough as well.

There was a lot of criticism about how they

didn't change how they play and they kept getting caught at the back and playing from the back was really poor.

I'm a big believer in, I think Pep says it as well.

And if he says it, he must be right.

That there's no plan B, right?

It's make plan A work, make plan a better and again and post and postacoglou who had gotten got a lot of heat for refusing to change how he played vincent company's getting it at burnley and i just really back managers that back the way they play and although middlesbrough didn't get it right i don't think the solution was for them to change how they played it was just to be better and a bit more flexible in plan a so i just wanted to make the point that i thought they got a lot of unfair criticism for trying to do what has worked for them so far just on this night it it just didn't, it wasn't executed very well.

Tempted to ask what your dad, your dad's feelings towards Aston Villa, but I might park that for a second.

And Barry, Pogettino said, I'm desperate to win a title here, i.e.

a trophy.

In one year and a half in Paris, we won three trophies and we want to win one here.

I'm desperate to win, of course, which is great revisionism for a PSG manager, isn't it?

Because

he famously didn't win Ligue R once, which is clearly enormous, but he's turned that into we won three trophies in one and a half years.

Yeah, it's it's a sort of a merino-esque uh massage of the figures isn't it um yeah of course he wants to win win trophies and

he he does have a

you know it is constantly pointed out by his detractors that he's lost what is it two finals in

in uh

during his time in english football english was it two or three champions league final carabao cup final i can't remember any others so you know we have a repeat now of the carabao cup final in 2022 and indeed the FA Cup final in 2022.

I think the Carabao Cup final wasn't too bad, and Liverpool won on penalties.

That was the game in which Keparazabaglat was brought on for the shootout.

Please don't pillboy up on

whatever it is.

I just called him.

I haven't said his name for quite a long time.

And he ended up missing the decisive spot kick.

And

then

Liverpool won the FA Cup final as well on penalties, and that wasn't a very good game.

So, Chelsea, I suppose, a due one.

I think Liverpool will probably win the final.

There's an inevitability about it, seems to be, because they don't lose too many games, and

but you never know.

So, Liverpool threw after a one-on-draw at Craven Cottage.

This game was pretty exciting after the Fulham equalisers, Johnny.

I think once Liverpool scored early on, you thought that might be it, and Burton Leno should have done a lot better.

But we did have a kind of last 15.

Harry Wilson had that one chance.

You just wanted Fulham to create a little bit more after they score.

Yeah, it was interesting that I mean, I think Marco Silver afterwards said that Fulham's Fulham got too emotional.

And, you know, the people who are at the ground were saying that the stadium announcer was going, like, this is history.

This is our chance of history.

History could be made tonight.

And, you know, you wonder whether they maybe played up that side of it, you know, a little bit in March, because Fulham haven't, you know, they haven't been at this stage.

Uh, I think it's something like eight semi-finals in their history, something like that.

And, you know, it's possible they just got a little bit nervy and they started really badly.

And then, you know, they made a game of it in the last half hour.

Harry Wilson, who I from the times I've seen him playing for Fulham, I don't know why he doesn't play more for them in the Premier League.

I guess Fulham fans would have a, would have an answer to that, but a better answer to that.

But yeah, Fulham really went at them in the last 20, 25 minutes in a way that made you wonder, you know,

what if they had a proper go at Liverpool right from the start?

Because Liverpool were, you know,

it wasn't quite a full strength side, you know, that they played a lot of the kids and they played a lot of, you know, fringe players.

So it was kind of a mix of youth and experience.

And I actually thought it was really impressive the way they saw that game out.

If you think about the lack of experience, you know, Bradley and Kwan Sarah thought had a good game.

I mean, I also want to mention like that this incredible, like he sends on,

Klopp sends on Bobby Clark with with seven minutes to go and that's the point at which the the ties is right on a knife edge and I just love the the trust of Klopp going to the you know Bobby Clark go on see this out like cup semi-final and he does it and he played he played really well so

that I think is the the difference between these two sides just that that kind of institutional knowledge of how these um you know how to to get the job done basically it's interesting actually Jordan isn't it Johnny mentions Clark there um Connor Bradley as well Seeing young players coming into a confident team,

it just, I mean, clearly, these are all very good players, but God, it helps.

It does.

And I think the coaching around that and the environment that's created is a massive, massive part of that.

They're having a, what I would say, a decent to good season this year.

And I think having talented players who are young, and as I mentioned, they're in an environment created by the manager and the coaching staff to do their best work

is essential.

I thought Fulham work were,

I thought Fulham, I thought Fulham were good.

I was disappointed they didn't really go for it a bit earlier in the match.

I thought that they kind of tried to feel like Liverpool a bit too long before going for it was my interpretation of the match.

But I think had they gone for Liverpool a little bit earlier, they might have had a little bit more joy.

I thought they started quite well, but like Burrough the night before, they kept giving the ball away sloppily when

they should have done better.

And they had two pretty good chances in the first half before Liverpool scored.

One was when Pereira picked out Paulina at a corner and he he had all the time in the world to pick his spot for the volley and blasted over the bar and he should have scored.

I expected it more from a player of his quality.

And then I think soon after that there was an Anthony Robinson cross from the left, a real vicious cross and Queveen Kelleher got a vital touch to deny Bobby Cordoba Reid at the far post.

I think if one of those had gone in, you know, Fulham might have

could have the tie could have gone the other way.

And then Diaz scored,

you know, Jarrell Quanza is another young player who was playing for Liverpool, and he was instrumental in setting up that goal with his lovely sort of Alexander-esque, Trent Alexander Arnalesque diagonal up towards

Louis Diaz.

I have a theory about this game.

When Liverpool scored that goal and then half-time came, I reckon almost the entire audience will have switched over to Traitors on BBC.

Right.

Because it was the first night of the final week of Traitors.

And it'll have been, you know,

Liverpool are done.

That's it.

Game over.

Let's watch Traitors.

So no one will have seen Fulham's reasonably spirited fight back in the second half.

Who's the favourite to win Traitors?

Oh, don't spoil it, Barry.

I'm two episodes behind.

Okay.

Don't answer that question.

Is it Gavin or Chanel?

I mean, I'm not watching, so

no Gavin, no Chanel.

A lot of them are very, very thick.

That's all I'll say.

Just incredibly thick.

Right.

Okay.

So the guy...

who I think is going to win, although I suspect the way it's being edited, he may not.

It won't be because he's incredibly clever.

It's just the rest of them are just so thick.

I just wonder from a Fulham perspective, is there a danger in, you know, you take this competition seriously, you play all the games, you get a bit tired, you go out in the semi-finals, no one remembers that, and so actually, you'd be better off not taking the competition seriously, or is that just a daft question?

I think you have to take it seriously, don't you?

If you're full of them, I mean,

they're not going to get relegated, they're not going to be challenging for Europe.

So, of course, they should take Cup seriously.

It's been a while since a team has made a mistake with

things for supporters.

I think it was

the Brighton ponchos of maybe five years ago that made it look like they had started a new, I don't know what, what are they called?

You know, the

what are the Ku Klux Klan?

What's their sort of a rally?

No, not a rally, you know, like, I don't know what they're, what's their home base?

I'm not, I'm not, not fortunately i'm not very knowledgeable on this but bumper says was it a surprise to see fulham confirm themselves as the london branch of the kkk yes they laid out the flags in a really i mean it is it was funny because it's a moment in time when they're all waving it looked great but when they were all just laid on the seats they must have someone must have sat back and gone oh dear this really this really doesn't look very good um but anyway leicester did this i remember lester doing this a few years ago there was um they were playing a champions league game during their Champions League season and they put, you know, it was basically the same.

They put white flags on all the seats, but because of the way the flags were falling, it just looked like they filled the entire King Power Stadium with very, very small clan.

Tiny grand wizards.

And to be fair, as you're putting the flags down the seat, that gentleman or that team wouldn't have seen it from 50

meters back.

So to be fair to Fulham, they wouldn't have known that until.

You don't know in the sort of in the risk assessment, you don't you don't think that what will this look like from afar, do you?

Yeah, exactly.

Anyway, maybe the next team won't make that mistake.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll look ahead to the fourth round of the FA Cup.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game, Day Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

We normally get told off for not talking about Monday night football.

I imagine we would get told off for talking about Monday night football.

It was so long ago, and Brighton and Wolves drew 0-0.

James Milner did overtake Ryan Giggs to claim second in the all-time Premier League appearances list.

He's now just 20 behind Gareth Barry.

So, you know, look forward to when he overtakes that.

It would be some achievement from young James.

FA Cup fourth round.

Ipswich Maidstone.

Should we start there?

George Adekobe, delighted with the drawaway at Ipswich because he says it's a fantastic location geographically.

It is reachable for our Maidstone community.

He says, not wrong, just one hour 33 by car.

Worth noting,

if you're going by train, there is a reduced service on Greater Anglia between Colchester and Ipswich.

I just wonder, would it be quicker by boat?

Would Maidstone to Ipswich be quicker by boat?

Like shorter distance, surely?

I don't know how near the water Maidstone is.

Maidstone is like North Kent.

Not coastal, but I mean, probably a short hop to,

I don't know, maybe Shelly

or Rochester.

Yeah.

And then, you know, you get on an oyster boat and,

you know, and.

Well, a Sunderland supporting pal of mine went to Ipswich a couple of weeks ago to watch Sunderland get beaten and 2-1.

And I think there was rail difficulties then, and he had to do quite a large chunk of the journey on a rail replacement bus.

And that would be enough to put me off going, definitely.

Producer Joel says, you're you're looking at the Tilbury Ferry from Gravesend to Essex,

but can't be quicker.

Anyway, I mean, I don't expect Barry, you know, everything about Maidstone United, but it's not a terrible draw for them.

I mean, they would have liked a bigger side, and Ipswich are going well.

And, you know, you never know.

Well,

I guess they're happy enough with Ipswich, but they would have liked a home draw, obviously.

And

I mean, this fourth-round draw, there's five all-Premier League ties, four all-championship ties,

and then

Maidstone are away, Newport are at home, Wrexham are away, publicity starved Wrexham, who were on the TV on Monday night.

Their game against Blackburn is on Monday.

And this round, like the last one, is spread out for over Thursday through to Monday, which is,

you know, I suppose it doesn't really matter, does it?

But what was, oh, Maidstone, yes.

Well, I think we've spoken about their history after their third round win.

You know, they've really

had it tough, were slung out of the league, ended up playing in the fourth division of the Kent Counties League, worked their way back up to the National League, then got relegated after a couple of seasons.

And for a while, they didn't have a ground.

We had their chief executive on...

the radio the day after the third round win.

Tremendously entertaining, man.

Some great stories.

He seems to have led a very full and eventful life in football.

And he's been Bill Williams, was his name.

Yeah, Bill has been connected with the club for decades, you know, been there for the very worst of times, and now he's there for the very best of times.

So

good luck to them.

What chance do you give Newport County over Manchester United, Jordan?

This seems like

if the round is ripe for an upset, this is probably the one that people want, right?

You'll want it, yeah.

I don't think it will happen, unfortunately.

It'll be hilarious if it did happen, but

I think United

are kind of in that kind of groove now where they know they're teetering

on the brink.

And if they lose games like this, it's going to just fall to a new low, a new level of

embarrassment.

So I expect them to get the job done here.

Bristol City, Nottingham Forest, Liverpool, Norwich.

I can only see Louis Suarez scoring eight in this game.

Bournemouth, Swansea, and West Brom Wolves, the other sort of possible upsets.

Spurs, Man City, probably the tie of the round, Johnny.

Certainly from an all-Premier League point of view, Madison might be back for Spurs.

It should be an open game.

Shouldn't it be 3-3 at the Etihad?

Man City have never scored at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

And you just sense that when they break that duck, they will really break that duck.

They've famously had a penalty in the first leg of that Champions League quarterfinal, which Aguero missed.

It's an annoying one for City because they are obviously, you know, they've got a huge kind of slate of league fixtures coming up and players that they are trying to, that Guardiola will be trying to ease back into the side, you know, whether it's Haaland trying to get

or De Bruyne.

And

he would probably have wanted something a little bit easier than this.

But going to Spurs, especially Spurs with their, I don't know, is it kind of, you know, parodic to call it cup heritage these days?

Because they haven't actually won the thing since 1991.

But there is, I think, an expectation, particularly after the way Spurs went out of the Carabao Cup, that they're going to have a.

I think Spurs fans are expecting them to have a pretty solid tilt at the Cup this season.

And especially if they beat City, they will genuinely believe they can go on and win it.

And they'll have a proper go.

Obviously, as we know, Apostakogu side will.

They will almost certainly put out a full strength or nearly full strength side.

Madison might be back.

I think La Celsa might be out, but generally a pretty full strength side.

And

it should be an incredible game.

I mean, I don't know if we're talking 2004 levels, but it's like it's coming up to the 20th anniversary of that famous 4-3 game, right?

Which I,

you know, the one-John Mackenheader.

The John Macken game.

Yeah, yeah.

They come back

from 3-0 down.

And so, yeah, I mean, all the ingredients are there.

I think it's what, Friday?

It's Friday night, right?

That's probably the tie of the round.

It's interesting that it was Gary Mabbitt who paired Spurs with Manchester City and the look of horror on his face when he saw what he'd done.

It's not the first time he's done possibly irreparable harm to Tottenham's chances of winning the FA Cup.

Let's just say, poor old Gary.

What does your heart tell you is going to happen in this, Jordan?

I think Spurs might do it.

I agree with Johnny.

I think Spurs are going to really, I think they've put a lot of emphasis this year in wanting to take the FA Cup seriously.

I think they know they need a cup.

They do have a decent record of recent times against Manchester City.

I don't think it will be because City are poor.

I just think Spurs will turn up.

And I take no joy in saying that.

But

I'll go for Spurs.

The British billionaire Joe Lewis pleaded guilty on Wednesday to charges that he used insider training scheme to enrich friends and associates and apologised to a judge.

I'm so embarrassed.

I apologise to the court for my conduct, he said.

He founded Enix Sport, the company that owns the vast majority of shares in Spurs.

In a statement last year to the Athletic, a Spurs spokesman said, The owner of Tottenham Hot Spur is Enoch with majority control held by a family discretionary trust, of which Joe Lewis is not a beneficiary.

He ceased to be a person with significant control in the club in October 2022.

This is a U.S.

legal matter unconnected with the club, and as such, we have no further comment.

The Lewis Family Trust effectively controls just over 60% of the club's shares.

His guilty plea, according to The Athletic, does not therefore impact the day-to-day running of the club or give them problems with the Premier League owners and directors' tests.

Is it convenient, Johnny, that Joe Lewis became no longer the owner of Tottenham at around the time this case began?

Yeah, well, that famous defence, like that, they would say that, wouldn't they?

We don't obviously have the time to go into it here, but if you look at Joe Lewis's history, you know,

business history, some of the stuff he's done, the business dealings, there's not a lot to feel proud of there for Spurs fans.

I think Spurs fans are pretty quick to talk about other clubs' owners,

whether it's Newcastle or City, or they're very quick to point the finger at other clubs for where their money comes from and how it's been earned.

And I think this is just a reminder that nobody is holier than now on this.

Ed Aaron's writing regarding Roy Hodgson, he understands Roy is set to remain in charge of Crystal Palace for next week's game against Sheffield United after holding talks with Steve Parrish, the chairman after the Arsenal defeat.

That and games against Brighton and Chelsea will be crucial in determining his future.

So a stay of execution, I guess.

Calvin Phillips has joined West Ham on loan with an option to buy.

That seems like a good idea, Barry, doesn't it, for all parties?

Just getting out of Man City is a good idea for Calvin Phillips because his career has really stagnated since he moved there, despite the fact that he's won a treble

last season.

I'll be honest,

I suppose I have to say, with the greatest respect to West Ham, I thought he'd go somewhere a bit better, a more elite club.

But he just needs to get playing football, doesn't he?

And

David Moyes is clearly very keen on him.

I'm not sure he's exactly what West Ham need,

but they are certainly what he needs.

I mean, interestingly, you say he could have gone somewhere better.

I wonder, Jordan, if everyone's fit, I know Picator's out for a bit,

but does he even start for West Ham with Edson Alvarez and James Ward Prouse just behind Paquetta?

I don't think he walks into that start in 11, but I definitely think he's more than capable of competing to get

into that team.

I personally think this move, a bit like Jordan Henderson as well, is driven by the fact that the third spot in the England team for this Euro Summers isn't locked down.

I think we know Bellingham and Rice will start.

And I think they would have gone to the bone with the the squad anyway.

But I reckon Phillips and Henderson are both thinking to themselves, I can start potentially in that team

in a Euros where England could win it.

He needs to obviously get himself, as you mentioned, into the West Ham team first of all.

But I don't see, I think that's, I can see that happening.

And I disagree with Barry slightly.

I'm not so sure.

he could have got a bigger team than West Ham.

I think West Ham is probably the kind of level of where Calvin Phillips is.

What kind of of club, Barry, was you thinking he could have potentially moved to?

Well, I think Barcelona are crying out for a player of his qualities,

but then there's the.

No,

there was some talk of Barcelona wanting to want a little cut price deal for him, right?

But the problem there, I suppose, is that Citigroup owned Girona, who are top of the La Liga, and would they want to help Barcelona out?

Possibly, you know, probably not,

considering the lofty position in which Girona finds themselves.

What there was talk of him maybe going to Newcastle as well.

West Ham are higher in the league table than Newcastle, but you know, the Newcastle project in inverted commas

is probably more ambitious than the West Ham one.

So, well, yeah, West Ham's all right.

You know, he just needs to get playing and try and get himself back in the English team.

You're smirking, Max.

Why are you smirking?

I just like

sort of damning thank praise for West Ham, you know, this club with years of history, you know, who won a European trophy.

And they said, well, they're all right.

I mean, I think you're right.

That's sort of about how good they are.

It just, it sounded quite flippant.

That's why I that's why I was laughing.

No, well, to be fair, they have won silverware,

lots of silverware since Newcastle last won silverware.

But, you know, Newcastle are the richest club in the world.

Yeah.

But

are comically hamstrung by the fact that they can't spend any of their money.

Well, you mentioned Newcastle, and they turned down quite a big bid for Trippier, more than they paid for him, considering he's 33.

They've turned down bids for Callum Wilson.

Now, Miguel Almoron is subject of interest from Al-Shabaab in the Saudi league.

Worth noting, they're not owned by Piff al-Shabaab

directly.

Johnny, your...

thoughts on that potential transfer?

Yeah, well, I mean, this is kind of the

official version of events, and which is also, I think, the official version that is

that, well, it's also the version that most of the Newcastle-based journalists have come up with through their independent digging.

So I think we can assume this is, you know, this is what's actually happening.

Basically, Almoron, you know, Newcastle needs to comply with fair play

for financial fair play.

So

Almoron is surplus to requirements.

He's, you know, he's not good enough for that team anymore, but not so surplus to requirements requirements that he wouldn't command like a really strong bid.

You know, they're not going to get low-balled

for someone like Al-Mu'wa.

You know, they're not desperate to get to him.

He's still, you know, part of the,

he was, you know, key part of the squad that qualified them for the Champions League last season.

And so a bid has come in from Al-Shabaab,

who I think

is president.

I mean, they're not one of the PIF-owned clubs, but they are one of the biggest clubs in the Saudi pro league, and their president

has come from a prominent family of Saudi businessmen.

So, obviously, would have done lots of deals with the state, through the state.

Not this,

I'm not assuming that any kind of deal has been done here, but basically, a bid has come in, and this bid is not, you know, it's not like a low-ball first bid.

You know, normally, first bids are quite derisory, right?

You know, you know that they're desperate to sell, but no, this bid has been, an agreement has already been made that they've agreed a fee.

So, it's like a bid that it's not

so low that they would reject it or negotiate it or they go through some sort of public protracted bargaining process.

No, they've just accepted that bid, but it's not, it's fair market value.

It's not like

it's not so big that it would be kind of

suspicious

under the fair market regulations of the profit and sustainability rules.

So, I mean, it's very lucky for Newcastle, really, that they've managed to a player who they didn't want to sell, but also had to sell,

somebody's come up with a bid for him that is the perfect bid.

It's pitched at the perfect level that is fair market value, but not so low that they would have to reject it and negotiate a higher one.

So, I mean, that's just a very fortunate.

That's the official version of events, anyway.

And I think we should all accept that official version of events, you know, if we value the structural integrity of our bones.

While we're on FFP and PSR and all the charges, Johnny, you actually wrote.

I sound surprised.

Your pieces are good, but like an interesting piece on FFP is quite an achievement.

And I will read a bit out because I thought it was interesting.

We're fighting in 2024 the battles that should have been fought in 2014 and 2004 or even earlier.

Decisions that were bought, shirt, ignored years ago, and now coming home to roost.

The unregulated free-for-all that allowed first the oligarchs and then the venture capitalists and then the state actors to claim a piece of our turf.

Players signed for ridiculous sums by sporting directors directors and owners who are now long gone.

The decision to let the Super League breakaway club slide back into the competition with a paltry

£3.7 million fine for their trouble.

Do you think right now these charges are kind of a watershed moment?

Or your piece was basically saying

it feels

even if the Premier League are doing the right thing by these charges, and I'm not saying they are, I'm not saying you're saying they are, the fact that they are doing it still feels not quite right.

Yeah, I mean, the problem with this debate, you know, so to call it, is that both sides kind of have a point in that obviously you need some kind of financial regulation to stop unregulated overspending, but you can also very strongly argue that the Premier League have no kind of certainly no moral authority to

or trust or the required trust to administer those regulations.

I think both sides kind of have a point here.

This is the you know the same Premier League who for decades basically turned a blind eye to this stuff, who built the entire brand of the Premier League on

no questions asked,

come and bring your money to the Premier League,

stuff the coffers

and buy whoever you want, do whatever you want, we won't ask any questions.

And so now for the Premier League to then say, well,

we're going to stamp down hard on these,

slightly smaller clubs, not the big clubs, but we're going to punish Everton and Nottinghams first.

You can see why fans of those clubs are like, hang on,

this is a little bit rich and it's a little bit hypocritical.

And so, yeah,

I don't necessarily know what the answer is beyond a proper regulator with actual teeth who can say to

state owners, no, you're not doing that, or saying to owners like Dai Young at Reading, this is not your club anymore.

We are literally taking this club off your hands.

And unless a regulator has those kinds of powers, then we are basically just, you know, we are continuing to fight the battles of 10, 20 years ago,

trying to regulate a game that has already been warped and bent and destabilized by the actions that were taken, you know, a generation ago.

All right, that'll do for part two.

We'll do any other business in part three.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game, Day Scratches from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question: Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

An update on the racist abuse of Mike Mannion, the AC Milan keeper.

Four Udanazi fans have been banned for life by the club.

Udonesi can confirm it's identified four further individuals relating to the incident of discrimination towards Mike Mannion.

These individuals will be banned from the stadium for life.

Udones have been ordered to play one match behind closed doors, Jordan.

Troy Townsend, our friend, was said, oh, the old match behind closed doors routine.

We are tired of it all, tired.

We, those most affected, he says, are tired of it all, tired.

It's behind closed doors never the answer now.

Should it be more severe?

Should it be more games behind closed doors?

Or is that a bad idea?

Yeah, I think the problem that Troy has with, and many people have with behind closed doors, is the amount of games.

So obviously a club will lose revenue if they don't have fans in the ground, right?

But being banned for having fans in for one game, the revenue loss there is minimal.

If it was going to be 10 games behind closed doors, 15 games, then, you know, I don't want to speak for Troy, but he may well feel that is a bit more of a deterrent.

I've got two quick points I want to make on this.

People often talk about fines

not being the answer because football clubs are so rich.

And I've maybe said that myself, but I'm going to stretch a point here to make my point.

It's the amount of fine, the amount of money that they are fined, right?

So, if there was a rule that said, if your club is deemed to have, you know, I don't know, plays players who have racially abused someone or fans who have racially abused someone, there's a 60 million pound fine, then that would put a lot of clubs out of business.

That could be a deterrent.

So, I'm exaggerating a point to make a point.

Fining clubs isn't necessarily not the answer.

It's the amount that these clubs often find, which makes it laughable.

And if I could make a second, almost parallel point in regards to off the field of play, you know, what could be done.

You, Max, and producer Joel invited me on to the Guardian Football Weekly for my first ever appearance on here a couple of weeks after George Floyd had been murdered.

I was on with Troy that one.

We had a really interesting discussion around what sports media and indeed the wider world can do to better race relations.

We had a really good chat.

I think you heard me on Talk Sport the week before talking about the same thing.

And I called out Talk Sport on Talksport about what they need to do and rah, rah, rah.

And on the Guardian that episode, I mentioned also the Guardian could do a lot more to invite black contributors onto the podcast to talk about these issues, not just on when, sorry, talk about footballing issues and not just about racism in football.

And to be fair to the Guardian, you've done that.

I've been on the pod now for three years and I'm very, very, very grateful and thankful.

And I enjoy coming on the pod.

I think there's a percentage of the sports media industry that's also improved in that we are able to have credible voices talk about this issue in a way that is from the voices of people who are affected by racism in this sport.

But also, I think in our media, and I think this wider media problem, is that we're still having this discussion of, is football racist?

In the same way I hear certain radio stations ask the question, is Britain racist?

And that for me is very problematic because

it makes me think that isn't the question.

We're past that.

But

we're really past it.

The question should be, what are we prepared to do to eradicate racism from the country?

But in regards to this podcast, football.

That's the discussion we need to be having here.

And I think in terms of off the field of play, what we as journalists can do is ensure that when we have podcasts, when we have radio stations, we have TV programmes, we are having the right people discuss these issues.

And I just wanted to kind of make the point that I think since my first appearance on the podcast, I've seen so much improvement in where the media has

spoken about this issue of racism in football with the people that actually know what it's like to be racially abused um so it's a very long-winded way of me kind of applauding the guardian football weekly and some parts of our media but other parts of our media i think are still well behind because they're still having that question of is football racist and for me that is an issue because we're just well past that that isn't the question no i i guess i guess what udanese would say is we found who we found the culprits we've banned them for life

that's what we should do that's what that is what they should do but i i think

I think they should still be, I still hold clubs responsible for the fans that are in their, that follow their football club.

That maybe seem harsh, sounds harsh.

And a lot of people take issue with the possible points deduction.

Oh, why should we all feel the brunt of

a few idiots?

But I'm really sorry.

I think a serious issue requires serious consequences.

And if we all have to feel the brunt of that for the minority, then I'm sorry.

But that is where we are.

Because my response is, what's the alternative?

Or in the sense that it creates an anti-racist environment at the club.

Right.

And, you know, for a Schedortman, for example,

they proactively, you know, educate fans on, for example, the Holocaust or anti-Semitism.

You know, they run courses, they run visits to Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

They try and proactively, before an incident happens, they try and create a culture that says racism is not tolerated.

This isn't us, this is not who we are.

And

if you could do anything like that, you are not one of us.

Doing that work

in a proactive way, instead of reacting to the incident, and I agree that

identifying and banning fans is a lot further than actually a lot of other teams are prepared to go, especially

when it puts them into conflict with their own ultras.

So, fair enough, that their reaction has been fine, but

it's

what was the environment, what was the culture that allowed these incidents to happen in the first place?

And I think, you know, the principle of collective responsibility means that Udene, they do have to take some share of the blame for that as well.

Moving on to AFCON, and thanks to everyone who enjoyed the special that we did on Afcon.

And yeah, it went out very well.

And it was a really fun panel.

We will do another one.

We've got one soon booked in, Producer Joel says.

It has been so good.

So many shocks, late goals.

It is worth pointing out, though, that yesterday, it is a real shame that Hakim Ziech scored for Morocco, because otherwise we would have had Namibia nil Mali nil, South Africa nil, Tunisia nil, Tanzania nil, DR, Congo nil, Zambia nil, Morocco nil, but Morocco spoiled it by scoring one, although their group is the best, because only Morocco have won a match in the group.

Uh, Congo came second with three points, three draws, and Zambia third, two points.

Uh, Tanzania on two as well.

But yes, it's good to see nought in the win column of three teams.

The last 16s begin on saturday uh jim says thoughts on eric dyer going full steve mclaren uh he made his debut coming on at half time in a 1-0 win over union berlin for bayern um i don't know if you've seen this clip barry have you uh has anyone seen i i have yeah it's good fun isn't it he went a bit hello hello didn't he um he hasn't been there very long i mean that's the amazing thing isn't it it's literally like you just land there and you just can't help yourself i suppose i go cockney when i get in a taxi so it's the same thing really isn't it you just start talking like the person who's talking to you it's a basic sign of humanity isn't it that it shows that you kind of empathize with your audience i think you know it's um

this this stuff gets gets slightly unfairly ridiculed because i think you know trying to adjust your uh your message or your tone to your audience is is is actually it's quite a nice thing to do yeah good on eric oscar says dear max and the gang i can't comment on the current spate of rushtoning in vera yes this is off the back of a rushton family appearing in vera and whether that is just a coincidence or they're big Football Weekly fans, I have it on excellent authority that the just-published murder mystery, Hell and Death, or Hella and Death, contains a series of clues or possibly red herrings in homage to a certain pundit's obsession with crime, including a back issue of The Blizzard.

There's also a character in it called Wilson.

For the record, this is a shameful coincidence and should not be taken as a reason to inflate his ego still further.

Yours with love, Oscar Jensen, listener since 2014 and author of the just-published murder mystery, Hella and Death.

Yeah.

Anyway, go and buy Oscar's book.

David says, hi, Max and the gang.

My best friend Shaka, also a listener of the pod, is getting married on the 27th of January, i.e., on Saturday, to his partner, Emma.

I was just hoping for a vintage Barry message.

I think he'll be more enthused about this one.

As whilst love is a factor, another reason is that being married means they get stuff cheaper, i.e., rental cars, when they visit America.

True love that.

Shaka and Emma.

Baz, away you go.

David's made a schoolboy error here because he's given me nothing to work with just that shaker is tight and

uh he's only marrying emma for the financial breaks that their uh nuptials will will bring i i believe you get tax breaks as well if you're married that you wouldn't otherwise get then there's pensions stuff like that

uh widow's pension you know you wouldn't get that uh emma wouldn't get that if Shaka didn't get it.

I think it takes like 30 or 40 years of those benefits to pay off the widow's pension is a really huge case.

That's an odd place to go to start with, isn't it?

Seems quite far, hopefully, quite far in the future, doesn't it?

David hasn't told us how old Shaka and Emma are.

That's a very good company in their early 60s.

So, I mean,

I appreciate that many see me in on my role on Football Weekly as some sort of dancing bear who will perform on on request but i really need more material to work with oh fine but it's only in two days can you not just at least wish them some happiness yeah

i hope they're very happy together for as long as the marriage lasts yeah uh speaking of uh being the football weekly dancing bear um i can't i think it was off the back of cristiano ronaldo saying uh he i'm 44 and i look great or how well we're 39 whatever he is ergonomics says when will i be able to buy the i'm 51 soon and I look like a sack of shit t-shirt.

Your comment to that, Barry?

Maybe we'll add them to Football Weekly merchandise.

Jordan, you've got a new podcast.

You're allowed to plug it here.

Is it good?

I think it's very, very good.

Thank you very much.

It's me and three mates.

It's called Not for Clicks.

It's football centered, but it's also sports.

So we look at other sports and discuss.

what's happening other sports.

We don't really focus too much on games.

So there's no competition with the Guardian Football Weekly.

We more kind of focus on issues, than actual game-to-game stuff.

And it's just four guys having a laugh.

And as you do on here,

and let me push my anti-villa agenda, it's basically an hour of that on my podcast over there.

But it's not for clicks.

I mean, it's not for clicks.

No one gets accused of clickbait in the responses to this podcast more than you.

But, you know, it's good you've had an about turn here.

Thank you very much.

Finally, Rian has written us a poem about chicken Goujons.

The email was marked, marked urgent, please read.

Okay.

In a pub so snug with laughter aglow, Barry and Max, friends in the know, a platter arrived, a feast to be, chicken goujons, crispy and free.

Barry's wit, sharp as a knife, Max's humour, the spice of life.

They shared the joy in every bite.

They shared the joy in every bite.

Goujons dipped in tails so light.

As crispy crumbs danced in the air, friendship flourished beyond compare.

Barry and Max, a duo so grand in Chicken Goujon's, they found a strand, says Rion.

From Rion in Manchester.

It's like the Iceland Christmas advent.

Is Chicken Goujon's...

That's not Urban Dictionary, Barry, for something, is it?

Not that I'm aware of.

If his poem was called Alabama Steamboat, then

I'd have cut you off literally doors.

Okay, well, are we in some way, do we have some connection to chicken gujons

that I've completely forgotten about?

I don't think so.

I mean, I'd happily share

a platter of chicken gujons with you, Barry, next time we're in the same room.

I was at home in Burr last week visiting Maya Glendenning, and we had no electricity the first day of my

uh

because the men were fixing the pylons on our street and electricity pylons as opposed to yeah, the pylons we're used to, yes, social media pylons.

Uh, so I, yeah, I took Ma out for lunch, and I had scampy rather than chicken glujons.

So if he could write a poem about scampy, then

I'm here to

think it would be more fitting.

I mean, that really will do for today.

But

thank you so much for your time.

Thanks, Barry.

Thank you, Max.

Thanks, Jordan.

Cheers, mate.

Thanks, Johnny.

Thanks for having me.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Max Sanders.

is the Guardian.