Arsenal and Spurs stunned as City close the gap - Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

North London is shite.

Apologies.

As West Ham win at the Emirates and Brighton Hammer Spurs.

Hard to know if West Ham's opening goal is a disgrace, a a disgracier, or just hilariously unlucky.

That aside, a great performance from David Moy's side and another slightly toothless one from Arsenal, who created so much but finished nothing.

Meanwhile, at the Amex, a game of two bits.

One long one where Roberto Deservey taught and a thing or two about playing out from the back and then a little bit at the end when the unlikeliest of comebacks almost seemed on.

We'll round up the games from the night before including Manchester City back on it at Everton, Chelsea sneaking past Should We Start to Worry About Palace and Wolves hitting four at should we start to worry about Brentford.

We'll look ahead to the weekend's games games and talk about an increase in social media abuse for female pundits.

There's your chance to go cruising with Neymar.

We'll answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Well, hello, Max.

Sorry, the prospect of cruising with Neymar has thrown me early doors.

Oh, well, you know, well, you know, for a fee, you could be doing it.

On a a boat.

You know, just to be clear.

Yes,

to be clear.

On a boat, yes.

I mean, I don't know if he's...

We'll get to it.

Lucy Ward, welcome.

Morning.

Hi, Nikki Bandini.

Morning.

Let's start.

That sounded like a sad morning from Nikki after

home defeat to West Ham, and that's where we'll start.

Ben says, West Ham getting beaten 5-0 twice in December.

And yet, I can't see how Moyes doesn't win manager of the month.

Yes, credit to S-Mail, who says, is it a disgracia or a disgrace?

Now we'll get to the opening goal in a second.

But West Ham, Lucy, four wins in five in the league, up to sixth place, four points off the top four,

still in Europe, and another brilliant win for them.

Yeah, the thing about David Moyes is just unfashionable for some reason.

He is the master of getting the right game plan for his opponents.

That's how he works.

He sees who he's playing and he makes sure he's set up.

And this season, because of the signings that they've made in in Pakatar and Kudas, who's probably, if Man United are looking at sort of

Ajax signings or, you know, and Alvarez as well, signings from there, that that's the ones they probably should have got.

But they're brilliant.

Alvarez, Pakatar, Kudas, brilliant signings.

They add a little bit of that little sparkle that that he needs.

And I know West Ham fans still moan a little bit, but I just think they set up i if when they set up to defend, it's so difficult to score against them as we as we saw last night.

It's just that you just make sure that they're good in both boxes so that they when they get up there and they counter, they score.

And when they um when they're defending, it's it it it is not really difficult to score against them.

And Barry, credit to Mavro Panos and and Ogbona, who hadn't played a whole lot of football.

And you sort of looked at that at the start of the game, you thought, wow, Arsenal are gonna run them absolutely ragged.

Yeah, I I thought they might struggle, and they were brilliant.

They just played very, very well for a partnership.

I don't know how many times they've played together, but

in for a Gerd and Kurtzuma

and didn't look at all out of place.

And it was a really good performance from West Ham.

I don't think Arsenal played terribly badly.

They just

this game, I suppose, highlighted their main shortcoming, which is a lethal finisher up front.

That's what they're missing.

And when Rhys Nelson and Eddie Nketty are the sort of cavalry to come off the bench, they don't particularly inspire confidence, even though they do chip in occasionally with an odd goal here or there.

But it was an excellent performance by West Ham.

And

as Lucy said, David Moyes is pretty unfashionable.

He's having a brilliant season.

He's had a great year.

And he probably won't keep his job beyond the end of the season.

And a lot of West Ham fans will be quite pleased to see the back of him.

It's a really weird dynamic there at West Ham.

Yeah, he is doing a very good job.

I think it's four years to the day that he got the job.

I think I was on air when he got the job, and he did a press conference saying, I win, that's what I do.

And I think I laughed, basically laughed at him.

And since then, he's done incredibly well, won West Hammer trophy.

I should probably write him.

To be fair, I think it was

a reasonable thing to do at the time.

He announced, I'm a winner, it's what I do.

And then you look at his win percentage at the time, and you know, it wasn't very good.

He certainly wasn't a winner at Sunderland, to put it that way.

That's true.

Nikki, Barry touched on that, you know, the lack of a lethal striker for Arsenal.

And it's interesting, isn't it?

Because that front three are excellent.

And there's something I love about Jesus is that he is unselfish and he does bring other people into play.

But I don't know if you watch a game like that and think, God, just somebody to just hammer in a load of goals for us would be useful.

I just, just before I get to Arsenal, I do sort of want to bring up this stat, which I have to admit, I was still on off Twitter, so if it's wrong, sorry, but I know it's going to be something close to this.

David Moyes saying he's a winner, and Lucy's saying as well that he knows how to draw up plans for the right occasion.

Well, 73 games away in the Premier League at Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal.

It's the first time he's won any of them.

He hasn't had a great record in these big games.

I don't say that to denigrate him because actually West Ham have been obviously brilliant in the last month.

They've beaten Manchester United, they've beaten Tottenham, they've got through some pretty big games coming into this one.

They are playing very well at the moment,

but just sort of had to highlight that David Moyes stack because it's extraordinary.

I think there's going to be inevitably after this game this conversation again about whether or not Arsenal need to have

the classic goal scoring centre forward.

I

think that it sort of fits neatly, doesn't it, with this idea of Arteta having taken

all of his footballing vision, I suppose, from Pep Guardiola.

And of course, Manchester City did win the league before Erling Haaland arrived.

I think you can definitely do it.

And I think the fact

the fact is that Arsenal were more effective in front of goal last season.

There are players like Bakayo Saka who haven't been scoring as well as they have last season.

Not all of it is as simple as, oh, yes, you just stick in a goal-scoring player and it changes everything.

Having said that, of course, it's also true that City signed Erling Haaland and they won the triple.

So yes, having someone who is prolific up front makes a difference.

That's always going to be true.

And if there was a weakness structurally with Arsenal last night, it felt like it was, as Barry said, looking at the bench, who are you going to bring on who's just going to stick the ball in the net for you?

The thing about if you haven't got a natural finisher who can score from nothing, it means that every time the Arsenal play, they have to be more or less perfect in terms of that, you know, when they're against a low block like West Ham Defend.

And they just didn't look like scoring, even though they had the cumulative chances were, you know, miles, I think six times what West Ham had in terms of cumulative chances, the XG.

But you could be an average, you could play an average game, and if you've got somebody who could score from nothing, then it wins you the game.

And I think that's the problem with Arsenal.

You're not going to be perfect every game.

You're not going to be able to work the perfect goal.

And if you haven't got that natural finisher, but the only other thing is, in January,

who could they sign in January that's available?

And you know, I can't see anybody out there that's available for the money that you would spend.

Ivan Tony?

I mean, that's the player that they're looking at and Chelsea are looking at, I guess.

I suspect Brentford would be quite reluctant to let Ivan Tony go at the moment.

We'll get to them in time, I presume.

But

they've got a lot of players out, including him and Muemo.

When Tony comes back, I don't think they're going to want to sell him.

Sure.

And Muemo, if it and Whistle would go to Afcon anyway.

That's an interesting part about the way Arsenal play and actually those teams that are intricate.

Why don't they just for five minutes just go, look, from 30 minutes to 35, stick it in the mixer or just take some shots on 25 yards?

Like do something slightly different because like as Barney sort of suggested in his piece, it does rely on Saka being brilliant and he is brilliant.

But like, he's not always going to be brilliant.

Maybe you mix it up a tiny bit.

I don't know.

I mean, with sticking it in the mixer have been the right way to go against the West Ham team playing in a lot of

a significantly taller team that's quite good in the era.

I'm not sure that would have been the answer.

No, you put it like that.

Maybe you're right, but just doing something different.

Anyway, onto the opening goal, which was, from a neutral perspective, absolutely hilarious.

David, should Arsenal have worked that bit more closely with the Premier League to help improve officiating?

Kevin, why does the goal line technology not extend?

It's as easy as a tennis court, he says.

Latino, why is this guessing game a thing in a league that sells TV rights for billions of pounds?

And Jim says, have your thighs ever played a telling role in your working lives?

As we couldn't see beyond the thigh of Jared Bowen.

The conspiracy theorists were all over it on Twitter.

I mean,

if you're an Arsenal fan, it is so unlucky you've had two goals like this, which have cost you so badly.

For everyone else, it's absolutely brilliant.

And I can't wait for the third one.

But

what are we meant to do about it?

I mean, Nikki, you're the Arsenal fan.

I'll let you react first.

Yeah, I don't know.

I sort of assumed this was coming and I don't know if I'm expected to rage about it.

Whereas to me, this one wasn't.

I think the Newcastle goal was a whole different story and felt very frustrating.

I think this one, anyone reasonable looking at that footage will say, well, it was a very tight call and there isn't an angle on it.

In an abstract way, I think, yes, it's a bit odd that you have this goal line technology that you can use to determine

whether it's in the goal or not, and you can't use it for crossing the line outside the goal.

That seems slightly odd.

but uh in terms of this game i i none of the players complained about it which is the first thing to point out gabrielle is caught completely out of position um while the rest of the defense is flying across which i think is is more significant and mikel artetta didn't complain about it after the game either and we know mikel is not shy of complaining so to me this is this is a twitter story rather than a real world story yeah yeah you're you're probably right um i mean pakatar does brilliantly to to create the space for the goal the cross is excellent as well for for for Bowen.

But yeah, it was slightly messed up at the back by Arsenal.

And then Mavra Panos.

Barry, how do you feel about

him not celebrating against his former club?

He didn't have necessarily a great.

I mean, it wasn't Tony Adams coming back to the end.

It's not Arsenal and scoring a goal, was it?

No,

he didn't play very often for Arsenal.

I think while he was there, he was

very much beset by injuries, and then they got rid of him.

I knew so little about him, I absolutely mangled his name in a pod earlier this year.

I like I wasn't even close to what

Mavrapanas, um, and yeah, he didn't celebrate, but he was quite clearly very pleased as the big shit-eating grin on his face sort of uh gave away his true feelings.

I don't think he was too gutted about scoring against his former team.

You have to be seen to be, you know, I just think everyone should go full out of IOR

when you score against your former team.

But

that's just me.

Yeah, there was also Lucy.

I mean, it was funny when even Declan Rice found it funny when he gave away a penalty in front of the West Ham fans.

That was a great moment.

They must have loved that.

I love loads of things about Declan Rice, but the fact that you look at him and think that is just a normal person's reaction to how is my luck?

You know,

we've done everything we can, we just haven't scored, we've conceded two shots on target, west have a 2-0 up and then I've just tripped someone and given a penalty away the only thing that you can do is laugh and I actually quite like that in he's just thinking well you know everything has gone absolutely perfect since he he landed at Arsenal and so he probably you know that that little blip is probably something that all you can do is smile at but it was quite amusing he wasn't laughing but that is what you would feel like if you think well how's my luck tonight I saw in the and I said off of who scored numbers but I saw off the game he had more than 10% of possession in in the game.

So, more than nine minutes of the game, Declan Rice had the ball.

So, you're definitely going to feel like he's there thinking, I've done absolutely everything.

I've done literally everything.

And somehow, still, this sort of minds me.

Best way to do that would be to just have the ball for the first nine minutes.

Then you can just take your foot off the gas.

On the subject of sort of Arsenal's attacking, and Phil Costa, who does stuff for scouted football and ask blog,

put out a stat that I thought was quite interesting.

At the same point last season, Saka had six goals and six assists, Martinelli, seven goals and two assists.

Jesus, five goals, six assists.

This season only Saka is pretty much up with where he was: five goals, six assists.

Martinelli scored twice, set up two, Jesus scored three times and set up one.

So with a 40% drop-off from last season, which, um, in a sense, given those statistics, it's quite impressive that Arsenal are doing as well as they are.

Ian says, Does this Arsenal performance prove that Havertz is in fact the lynchpin, or am I talking nonsense because I've just comforted eaten a large tub of kefir?

How very guardian, you know, like it's not, you know, it's not Neapolitan ice cream on this podcast.

A tub of what?

Kafir, I think it's a kind of, it's a kind of yoghurt, but I don't know at what stage they...

Is it sort of an unpasteurized yoghurt or something?

Fermented yogurt.

That's what Producer Joel.

Yeah, straight in with that stat, Producer Joel.

We know our Kafirs from

anything else.

I can't think of another.

I don't have another fermented yogurt.

I didn't even know that's how you pronounce it.

I just know how you spell it.

Well, I'm guessing to an extent.

But Mrs.

Rushton is very much in the, you know, she's in that envelope of ancient grains and kombucha and

kafirs.

Before we, you know, leave this game completely, since we're on yogurt and Barry hasn't made a hat out of it, Nikki, yeah, I mean,

let's do a bit more on West Ham.

Wood Prouse was excellent.

I mean, another assist.

We know his step pieces are good, but he's also an excellent midfielder, right?

I really enjoyed him after the game in his post-match interview on Amazon Prime, talking about growing up and wanting to be the next David Beckham and doing all this extra practice on free kick.

And just the way he describes it, it's quite tedious actually going through all this free kick practices over and over again, but clearly paying off here.

I mean, I think just across the board, because obviously whenever Arsenal lose, whenever any team in the title race loses, it's a story about that team.

But I think beyond just David Moyes, there was some excellent performances in this West Ham team.

Kudis and Ward Prouse being sort of chief among them in terms of looking after the football when they had those opportunities to look after the football.

But Suchek as well with the goal.

i thought they there were a lot of individual performances that were really strong um and certainly with my italian hat on angelo argbona who knows a thing or two about being that guy who who who waits on the bench because of course he was at juventus behind bonucci and chellini for a time and i think it it sort of speaks to to how well thought of he was there that antonio conte who had him in that had him in that chapter brought him into the italy team uh even sort of knowing well you know you haven't started as much as club lovers you could but i know what a defender you are To the Amex then, Derek says, Deserve ball is good, isn't it, Max?

Thank you, Derek.

Brighton four, Spurs two.

As I said in the intro, Barry, there were two matches here.

One that was 80 minutes long.

Brighton absolutely battered Tottenham.

And then the last 10 plus nine added on, where, with a bit more luck or a bit better finishing, Tottenham actually could have got a point out of this game, which is totally ridiculous.

Yeah, they could have.

And Brighton were almost punished for more or less downing twos once they went 4-0 up.

I suppose Spurs deserves some credit for mounting some sort of a stirring comeback that, as you say, with a bit of luck and better finishing, they could have possibly rescued a point.

It was kind of ironic, really, because they, you know, put in that huge effort in the final 10 minutes.

And then after the game, Ange said that...

you know, he just put the result down to fatigue and said that the way Spurs play,

you know, they expend a hell of a lot of effort and it's going to take its toll.

And he said they looked a bit leggy last night, and it was understandable.

And I guess that's fair enough.

They were also missing nine players for various reasons.

Brighton were missing eight.

So

both these teams play a real high-energy game, and

it's obviously going to take its toll.

And we've seen how it's taken its toll at Newcastle as well.

But

really good performance from Brighton for 80 minutes.

And I suppose the Purvis Estepin

goal was the highlight of it.

Absolute rocket.

It was amazing.

Finish, wasn't it?

I mean, it is probably worth saying with a bit more luck and better finishing, Brighton would have been 8-0 up in the 80th minute, Lucy.

And I think what's quite interesting about this game was that these are two sides that play in a very similar way, actually, I think.

You know, they both entice the opposition onto them.

They both play really risky football out from the back.

And it just felt like one of them yesterday was just so much better at it than the other one.

Yeah, and that's it.

And the thing is, and probably the difference last night was that Deserve has had longer with that Brighton squad, so that it's what he wants is more instilled.

The players that he doesn't want are not there anymore, the players that he wanted is brought in.

Whereas, and then that means that when they do have injuries, they can cope with them better.

And I think, and just look at that Spurs team, and there's a number of players who Postacognu obviously doesn't want to have at the club if he can help it.

So, one of them being Hoibe,

and you watch him play sometimes.

I think, particularly now, I watched the first, I was flicking over between the two games, but I watched most of the first half.

And where they want to get out from the back, they didn't really have him as an option.

And it's that, you know, he either

doesn't sort of join in with what goes on, or he can't do it.

I don't know what it is, but that sort of affected how

Spurs play.

So, I think when he has them as long as Deserby has had Brighton, I think that you'll see a real improvement in Spurs, to be honest.

Joe Pedro scored two penalties effortlessly, actually.

It's 100% record with his penalty.

But I felt, Nikki,

he was the standout attacking player on the pitch.

Yes, obviously, this game was happening at the same time as the Arsenal game, so couldn't give quite as much focus to all the individual performances.

But

I think it's

sort of

astonishing how

actually

well Deserbi has managed to keep this team producing this offensive capability, having lost many players.

And I know Tottenham had all these injuries as well.

I think both sides are going to say that.

But I think the fluidity of football they're playing, as Lucy said, more time

to get there.

But I think it's really

brilliant stuff.

And I think the sort of

the way that Tottenham gave away that first penalty.

I mean, it's poor from Kurasevsky, but it just spoke to this sort of exasperated energy of, oh my God, behind again.

Just it's that thing you do when you're on the pitch and you're desperate, isn't it?

Just reach hand out and grab and kind of hope you get away with it.

And I think it felt like for a big part of the opening section of this game, Tottenham are chasing shadows.

And obligatory James Milner is old stat, Barry.

It actually came from John.

So not a question, but four Albion players tonight, Hinchel Woods, Bunanotte, Ballaba and Ferguson, and two more on the bench weren't born when James Milner made his debut for Leeds.

He was brilliant last night.

I guess when Milner made his debut,

he was probably on a pitch with several players who had been, you know.

I'm really trying to.

I think what are you trying to say, Barry?

I'm trying to say that when Milner wasn't born, Milner wasn't born

when some of these players started their careers when he started against, when he scored against Chelsea.

See, I'll take over from you, Barry.

So James Milner, I used to teach James Milner.

Oh, of course you did, yeah.

Oh, shut up.

Mother Hen,

here she comes.

Cluck, cluck, cluck.

And he was so he used to go into the local school, we used to teach him when he was in the first team, and like all the other kids used to come and ask for his autograph, right?

So it might have been James Milner feeling old last night, but I feel even older

watching him play and and sort of uh still be playing.

I mean, he was an absolute machine at 16 and you know, and he obviously has looked after himself and great pro and stuff.

But, yeah, so I'll take over from that, Baz.

Seems like you got that in a right pickle.

I'm still not quite sure what stat either of you were trying to deliver beyond the one that John.

I was basically trying to make the point that James Miller was very young when he made his debut.

No, that's a good point.

And was a little bit annoyed with VAR.

It wasn't quite the, hey, I've never questioned a decision in my life.

Lewis Dunk did sort of smash into Kurasevsky in the lead up to Spurs' first goal.

I don't know if you saw that baz or nikki you're nodding and i mean the spurs conspiracy theorists it's nice to know that they also exist saying look had that been romero he'd have been sent off as he is every other week i mean that's a different story but they they might have a point i was more interested in and slightly getting a bit sniffy about the ar you know even over the kulasevsky penalty which was obviously a foul yeah it was an obvious penalty but they were both clear penalties and um and i also thought lewis dunk should have gone i think that's a studs up challenge into an angle it's it's a red card so he's very lucky.

Yeah.

Barry, since the start of November, Tottenham have conceded the joint most goals in the Premier League, 19, along with Nottingham Forest, which is not

title aspiration defending.

They have had so many people out there.

They'll play forced fullbacks again.

Lucy mentioned they don't want Hoiberg.

He doesn't want Eric Dyer, who must be sitting there going, I can't even get in when

anyone else will play in the back four.

But still, that is defensively not good enough if you aspire to be the best.

No, it isn't.

But as you say, it was very makeshift back forward last night.

Emerson Royal and Ben Davis, I think, playing at centre half.

And it is, yeah, slightly funny, but I presume Eric Dyer doesn't see the funny side of him not getting in the team, despite the fact that they don't have

that there's full backs getting in ahead of him.

But you've got to shore up the defense, defend better, you know,

pick up the phone, ring David Moyes, ask him what he should do.

Yeah, rumours of Eric Dyer going to Bayern Munich in the January window.

So, you know, he could lift a,

nice to see him lifting a trophy next to Harry Kane with the Champions League and the Bundesliga.

Or, of course, neither of them.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Part two will do.

I was going to say Tuesday's games, but they weren't.

Were they Wednesday's games?

Whatever day it is.

The ones that begin where Goodison, where Mad City Bud 3 won.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Goodison then, Everton won Manchester City 3.

Lucy, you were there.

How was it?

You know what?

Everton doused.

Man City in the first half.

They got douched.

I think the way that the Everton set up and their press is one of the best and most effective in the Premier League.

I mean,

mostly because needs must, and you know, they're probably not the best team in the Premier League, but I just think he's got them going.

They all believe in what he wants them to do, they all work really hard.

And if anything, Everton looked a little bit leggy in the second half, which obviously gave

Man City a little bit of a chance.

I mean, Man City were you know their usual selves, just trying to sort of get through a low block a little bit like Arsenal against West Ham.

But they just Phil Forden played really well.

I think, as soon as you let him loose in central areas, he's probably the most technically gifted of all the players

on that Manchester City team.

The only thing I would say is

the handball

law is does my heading because there's no absolutely no way on earth is that a handball.

It is a handball by the letter of the law, whatever you say.

But there's no way on earth can Inana put his arms anywhere else unless he sort of thinks to himself i better put my arms somewhere else by the time he thinks that the ball's gone past him anyway um so i'm not having that not having that as a as a handball and that just sort of gave the impetus to to city and you you don't need anything going city's way if you're playing against city and and and that certainly did i mean it was the first

good save from an inana this season but i mean i'm i'm

i i am i i am with you lucy i mean sean dice afterwards said he's he's not putting his arm up to save it.

He's literally jumping in to try to block the ball.

How that is given as a penalty is bizarre in my world, but I must be from a different planet.

I suppose if you were questioning which Premier League, yes, if you're questioning which Premier League manager is from a different planet, I guess Sean Dice would be quite high up there.

I mean, maybe we don't need to have, maybe Lucy said it all for him, and I don't know if anyone else.

My only fear is that people, because there are so many of these penalties now, like fans are getting conditioned to wanting, to believing they are.

And like kids who are starting to watch football now are like, well, that is a penalty.

And so like once, you know, we've jumped the shark and there's nothing we can do.

It's at the, you know, the Pandora's box is open.

We're screwed.

Like, it makes me so upset.

And I don't really get upset about anything apart from sleep deprivation.

And I just, I would just change the law now to say, oh, if we're not going to fix it, just say that's a free kick.

Just give us a free kick.

And then it's chaos in the box, 11 men on the line, etc.

Fewer goals, more fun.

But oh, yeah, it drives me completely mad.

Barry and Nikki, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.

I have nothing to add really.

I think we've kind of discussed it to death.

It's a handball by the letter of the law.

And if that is the law, then the law is an ass.

I just, as you were saying that, Max, and I'm sorry, because we're not the youngest panel, probably Football Weekly's ever had.

And I just had a picture of the principal skinner meme from The Simpsons with, Am I Out of Touch?

No, it's the kids who are wrong, as you were saying.

That's what kids are are going to come up thinking it's a handball.

Well, yeah, they are.

They may be right on many things, but the kids are wrong.

I agree with Principal Skinner.

The one thing I add, I have to add, and I have to put about this, and I know I'm a little bit biased, but Calvin Phillips, right?

How on earth and why on earth did Guardiola buy Calvin Phillips?

And I think it's

evidence of how good Bielsa is, of how much he got out of Calvin, that Guardiola couldn't couldn't get that level of performance from him and I'm not sure you know I even look at it and think why did he buy him in the first place did he buy him so that others couldn't have him because you know they knew how he played you know surely they did the due diligence on him they knew what type of player he was they saw the level of performance we also saw the level of performance that he he did for for leads now surely he didn't buy him just so that he had some homegrown talent on the bench and that others around him couldn't have him.

I've just no I just can't work work out why you buy someone that you know exactly all about and that someone else has got a lot more out of him um and then you don't play him i don't i i just can't understand it lucy can i ask just you as someone as a former player and as someone who knows calvin well do you think he would rather be say at

newcastle playing regularly or

a really, really, really peripheral figure at Man City, but with a treble to his name.

Yeah, somewhere playing regularly, but I mean, I'm sure, you know, he's that he's had a lot of fun and it's been fantastic, but wha when you've not had anything to do with it, you know, he probably looks back at his time in Leeds when they won the when when they win won the championship uh and I know he does with with with with more fondness because he was a major part of it.

And that's it.

He knows his levels of performance and so it's frustrating when you you you don't get to show that um at a team like City and and and really at a team like City,

you should be you look a better player because of all the better players around you.

So it's just frustrating.

It's just frustrating for him

and it's frustrating for everybody who knows how well.

And Leeds fans are absolutely furious with the fact that

they're furious that somebody's wasted him for the past two years.

And he obviously he went there thinking he was going to play.

There's no way he went there thinking that he was going to sit on the sidelines for for two years, otherwise, he'd have gone somewhere else.

But is it just so that he couldn't go anywhere else?

I have no idea.

Man City,

what they've got, Sheffield United at home, Newcastle away, Berlin at home, Brentford away.

Barry, is this when they go on there?

Win 19 in a row?

You know, we're not winning, you know, the Arsenal slipped up, Tottenham slipped up.

You know, it's it's starting to look like well, I can certainly see them winning four in a row,

whatever about nineteen.

Um, who knows?

Uh, they have shown signs of fallibility this season, but they have had a very good Christmas period, despite only playing once.

Results elsewhere have gone their way.

They got that win.

I think my main takeout from this game was City weren't massively impressive, but

the build-up to the Everton goal, they gave the ball away twice.

Bernardo Silva and Rodri both gave the ball away.

So, I mean, if Pep had hair, one imagines he would have been ripping it out in giant tufts at the sight of that.

And it'll probably kept him awake all night.

Yeah,

look, we don't know how long of a run they're going on, but it's a nice cushy start of the year, isn't it?

City fans sung to Everton fans, cheating bastards, you know what you are with reference to Everton's points deduction, which I think is quite funny, given the 115 charges that we are waiting to discover, the results.

But were they singing with their tongues in their cheek?

Presume so.

I mean, we can only presume so, right?

But who knows, right?

Maybe they just really care about justice, you know, and if they are found guilty, they will absolutely take it on the chin.

Ian Wone versus Kyle Walker was a fun contretemp.

In 2003, four, Ian Wone played for the Syracuse Salty Dogs, who feel way less real, says producer Joel than Barry's beloved Woodland Timberlakes.

And also pointed out Peter Reed was wearing an excellent hat.

David tweeting, good to see Peter Reed taking some time out from his ongoing hunt for the beer baron.

Yes, he does look very much like someone trying to catch Al Capone.

It's a wonderful hat and he's a good man.

Chelsea 2, Crystal Palace 1.

Gav says, I had a great joke, but Chelsea ended up winning.

Which I presume is about perhaps Chelsea investing in players.

They needed a win.

They probably deserved it, Nikki.

I mean, there's a bit of like Arsenal creating so many chances, but not really delivering.

And

it took them 89 minutes to get the winner, but they probably deserved it.

Yeah, it felt like it hung in the balance longer than usual.

Obviously, there was the disallowed goal as well.

I don't know.

I think this feels like a bit of a recurring story for Chelsea at the moment.

There's some individual performances in there that really make you go, wow, that was someone looking really impressive.

I thought Malo Gusto obviously was brilliant.

His run for

the first goal, sort of starting it and then delivering the the assist for muderic was was something brilliant um they look at times really really scintillating going forward um

and then as you said they they nearly don't win the game so um continue to be uh i suppose a an incomplete team but

i don't know i think i feel like the trajectory is improving maybe not as fast as fans would like but i think it's it's improving yeah their xg they'd be second in the table or i think in that game when they went to Spurs and Spurs had nine men, they got an XG of about 1,000.

So that might have skewed things.

And Kunku played.

He's an interesting player, Lucy.

Slightly different to what I was expecting in the sense that

he doesn't necessarily look like an out and out number nine.

He sort of drops deep a bit, doesn't he?

And links the play quite nicely.

He's a link player, and he's better decision-making than any that they've got.

They still obviously need a big bully in number nine, I think, a strong physical number nine.

But Unkunku is the real deal, and I think they've probably been a little bit unfortunate that he was injured in pre-season.

So, basically, I had to change the way they played Chelsea.

It's been difficult because, obviously, you know, usually a team will invest in sort of one or two young players who may or may not reach the potential whenever Chelsea have got a team full of them.

So, you know,

they've got to learn on the job, and I think that's not Pochettino's fault, as we as we know.

But I think Unkunku is going to be the one that sort of connects, probably makes others play better around him.

Jackson is getting absolutely hammered by his own fans, which never adds, we talk about belief again, never adds to any player's confidence.

But I think he's got something at some point.

I just think he's just not the starter at the moment, and I think he'd do better when he's got someone in front of him in the squad who will play, and then he sort of gets himself eased in.

Liam says, as a Palace fan, I'm starting to get quite concerned.

If we can't get a win away against this Chelsea, where are we going to get points from?

No wins and eight for Palace.

Ed Aaron's reporting that Palace are very keen on Steve Cooper, who is obviously available after Forrest got rid of him.

Your thoughts on that, Baz?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they get Steve Cooper in.

I did notice actually Bruce Millington, former editor of the Racing Post and a big Palace fan.

He sort of put a shout out on Twitter asking, you know, is Steve Cooper actually, you know, this brilliant manager, everyone, all the Forest fans claim.

And a Forest fan made quite a reasoned argument.

I wouldn't say it was a character assassination of Cooper, but he went, you know, he's a decent manager, but, you know, he's

not as tactically diverse as he could be.

He's a habit of freezing players out.

And, and, you know, I think we saw who is that he banished from the squad recently,

the club Joe Worrell.

That's what I said on the last pod.

He banished the club captain, and so things were only ever going to go one way after getting rid of the club captain because the rest of the players are like, hang on a minute, he's our captain.

So, yeah, there's obviously something about his makeup.

And never banished Joe Worrell because during COVID, when obviously players couldn't say, I'm busy, he came on talk sport and read The Hungry Caterpillar for us.

He was actually very good at it.

So I have nothing but respect for the man.

Sorry, Barry, you were mid-point.

You know, I don't know if Cooper is the messiah he's sometimes portrayed as.

He's obviously a good manager.

I'd be honest, I thought Palace were a bit unlucky in this game.

I thought it could have gone either way and it went Chelsea's way.

And I think the main problem for Palace was

Hodgson not making changes early enough.

I think he only brought on two subs, one in the 79th minute and one in the 90th minute,

when it was too late.

And

Pochattino made a raft, I think, three subs on

the hour mark, and Hodgson didn't react.

So I think that is where the game got away from Palace.

Hodgson not

doing, making the changes that could have altered the result.

Trash account says, from squaring up to players earlier in the season to becoming salty AF in interviews, is everyone enjoying Roy Hodgson as much as I am right now?

Yeah, there's a great interview of which I'll have some of the transcript.

Sam Matterface

asked Roy after the game, he said, Roy, you looked a little bit animated at the end.

What was irking you?

Seems a totally fair question from Sam.

And Roy said, Telling me how I look and how I feel, and then suggesting that I should have a reason for how I feel.

That's not what I came on the radio to discuss.

Ask me some questions about the game and I'll answer them.

He can be a bit chippy at times, Roy.

I like Feisty Roy though.

Feisty Roy is cool.

I like him.

He just is not, he's got to that age where he's not taking any crap from anybody.

So I like that.

Do you know what?

There's an interesting thing, isn't it?

The people who interview managers after the game, they have to maintain a relationship with them.

So like every, like if he said that to me, like every part of me would want to say it would be like...

Seem a bit irked still now, right?

You know, like

that's what you want to say.

You're right now?

What about now?

What about now?

But and that's actually why most post-game interviews aren't exactly that interesting because you can't if a manager says something that's completely ridiculous you can't go come on mate that obviously was a penalty because you you might they might say i don't want to talk to you next week etc etc but yeah that was funny julian loopategu's also been spotted at selhurst park in recent weeks uh while according to eds uh ed ahrens the lile manager paulo vonseca and oliver glasner who's been out of work since leaving frankfurt both have supporters in the palace boardroom i think they should be palace fans shouldn't they rather than supporters of just other random managers at the bottom of the premier league is really quite interesting now isn't it with luton's uh uh little upturn in form uh chef united have nine burney 11 luton 15 everton 16 forest 17 palace 18 and brentford 19.

uh brentford were hammered 4-1 at home by uh wolves jim says they've lost six out of the last seven um will the imminent return of ivantoni fix them or do their problems go deeper than that brendan says did barry know nathan collins actually still plays for wolves i presume after watching this,

you really do.

Poor Bloke had an absolute stinker, didn't he?

Oh, what a shocker he had.

I think more or less provided three assists for his former club, two shocking passes, and a bad clearance led to three of the Wolves' goals.

And Thomas Frank said after the game, you know, that

he was able to sort of see the funny side, or at least claimed he had, and

said

he had said to Collins, it would be impossible to be worse than this.

And that's almost a challenge, you know.

It wasn't as bad as, I mean, it reminded me a bit of Vout Fass when he scored those two own goals at Anfield for Leicester.

Because, you know, when the second one went in, you were like, you can't, he can't have done that.

He can't have done both of these.

You know, when you're just watching the fourth one, you're going, that can't be Nathan Collins doing that.

Especially the second one was like they literally just conceded a goal it was what 14 seconds or something it's worth mentioning um huang hee chan nikki who's i mean who's finished for that where he just dinked it over the defender and slotted at home was so good but like he's he's an absolutely brilliant centre forwards and and is is so vital to that team yeah i was i was sort of perfect contrast because it was Collins putting him in between what sort of felt like a very I felt like Nathan Collins felt like what you almost just feel like it was this very post-christmas performance it's just like everyone's a little bit too relaxed um whereas swang was the opposite he was really sharp all game getting on top of people um punishing those sorts of mistakes and i i think he's a nice sort of case study in in how patience and um and coaching can can get you places to the player because he's he didn't score that many goals the last two seasons.

This season, he's already hit double figures.

We're not talking about someone at the beginning of their career, someone very much in the middle of their career.

I think this, having had a conversation already about strikers with certain teams, it's a sort of reminder that it's not just about snapping your fingers sometimes and having

the money to go out and buy a centre forward.

You can get more from what you have with

the right opportunities.

Do we worry for Brentford, Lucy?

I worry because of the attack.

I think Barry said it earlier

about Ivan Tony.

you know, if he goes, that's a problem for Brentford, you know, and they're in position now where, you you know, they're not get I I I think they'll be all right, Brentford, to be honest, just because of Thomas Frank and the way that he's got this team going.

But you need to be scoring goals if you stay enough, and I think that's the most important bit, getting someone to score goals.

So maybe, you know, keeping hold of Tony is probably more more crucial than ever at the moment.

They are missing quite a few players as well.

I mean, last night in Buemo, Tony, Ben Mee, Christian Iyer, Rico Henry is a huge loss for them.

Shandon Baptiste was out as well.

I'm not sure.

I don't know how many of them are long-term absentees.

I know Rico Henry is,

but yeah, that for a squad, their squad doesn't have that much depth.

So to be missing all those players, it's going to take a toll.

But six losses in seven games is not good.

Yeah, worth mentioning as well.

Huang, I guess, goes to the Asia Cup, right?

As well as Sun.

So that will impact Wolves

as well as impact Spurs.

That happening at the same time as AFCON, there or thereabouts.

And some will have produced a list of all the players uh who are leaving and won't be there for uh bits of January and February I think I think forests are going to be hit particularly hard this I think six or seven players could be off to AFCON yeah

and six or seven like pretty key players

don't ask me to name them no maybe we'll read out a list on a pod soon that'll do for part two back in a second

Hi pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Before we do a Premier League preview, Lucy, you tweeted recently on the 11th of December, the amount of hassle I've had on here, on Twitter in the last few days has increased tenfold.

I think some feel a bit of Dutch courage at the moment.

We on this pod have debated a lot, but not on air, about whether to talk about certain ex-professional footballers footballers continually tweeting about female pundits and the women's role in the men's game specifically and and i just thought was really interesting your tweet and obviously we talked to you before the pod about whether you wanted to talk about it or not we didn't really want to give any oxygen to certain people um

but it's interesting that there is a real effect you have seen a real effect on you know people with millions of followers tweeting that women have no place in the men's game.

Yeah, it is

really powerful negatively.

I've seen a real increase in

people that sort of direct message me or at me on Twitter.

I just think it's just given it's just given oxygen to people who have these views.

And

it's difficult because you want to say that it doesn't have any effect.

But I think that, you know, when I go out with my friends from school just before Christmas and I'll show them messages that I get and people that, and they're just like, How on earth do you cope with that?

And these people who do normal jobs, you know, if they have that sort of at their normal job, you know, it affects them because it's quite a lot of it's personal, quite a lot of it insinuates, you know, why I'm in the position I am, even though I've, you know,

and I am loath to explain

myself in terms of the experience that I've got, but sort of working in professional football, in men's professional football,

for the since 1998.

And I know more about men's football than women's football simply because I've worked in men's football for all that time.

So, but I'm loath to do that, but I feel sometimes like I have to do it because you can't say, Oh, you know, I've got 100 caps for England like Alex Scott and Farrell Williams, and that's an easy argument whenever anybody says anything about them.

But I've got more experience in men's football than them, and I've played

and coached a little bit.

But why should I be sat here explaining?

Because the most disappointing thing, or one of the disappointing things is, but I understand it, is that I've got the support of everybody I work with, men, because when I walked into the Winnebago when I was doing it, I was the first one.

I think it was

when this particular person started his run, I was the first woman to work that evening.

And I was working with Jim Proudfoot, Steve Bauer.

And, you know,

I know I've worked with both of those for years.

And

they just sort of turn the noses up.

Now, these people,

I think that one of the reasons why these people, and I've not talked about the people I've just mentioned, but ex-pros, I don't think ex-pros have spoke up on Twitter

against it because I think that that

there is a risk of everything that this person knows about these ex-pros coming out.

And I honestly think that's the reason why, because he just doesn't have a stop button.

And

I know that everybody that I work with has my back, but

the amount of stuff that I've had, and this week it's happened as well.

I didn't think I would escape

being specifically targeted, and I was in the Bern the Liverpool game.

And it was absolutely horrific, honestly.

The stuff that I got, direct message sent to me the stuff that I got tagged in and you know and I and I saw every so often I'll look at these people and then I have a picture with their daughter and I just think wow

I just feel sorry for your daughter if you don't think that women can do whatever they want to do right how on what is your daughter she's just going to be limited in everything she does but it it's still I to this day it's still how someone can sit at home and say something very personal about someone else that they've got no idea who's actually worked their ass off to get where they are is just incredible.

And to be honest, I laugh at a lot of it, but

it is incredibly hard not to just think, oh, has that person got a point?

And then you just speak to the people who you know will tell you the truth and you just know that they don't have a point.

Are you tended to to to leave social media?

No, I get a lot of you don't want to be sort of bullied away from it, I guess, but it's about yeah, I I I mean what I do, Max, is that I mute everybody who says something like that is just unpleasant because the best thing about that is that

they don't know that you've been muted, so they're basically shouting into thin air.

And that's quite amusing to me that these people, so I will put something on, and when I look at my replies, it'll say, From a count, you muted, from an account, you muted, from an account, you muted.

And I was like, well, brilliant.

I'm not even looking at that.

And they just think that I can see everything, and I obviously can't.

But no, I don't think I will because I, you know, the hardest thing thing is my friends, my close friends,

some of them try and argue with people, and I just feel so sorry because they get so my friends get so frustrated.

My friends and family get really frustrated, try and argue with people.

It's just not worth it.

It's not worth giving these people oxygen.

It really isn't.

Yeah.

Nikki, I wonder if you have, you know, if you have seen an increase in any sort of social media abuse or not.

I think the truth is, and you just touched on it.

I've self-selected off Twitter to a large degree because

I sort of

make choices about where I'm going to put my energy in life and Twitter, I think this is bigger than just the comments in recent days.

I think Twitter has been trending in an unpleasant direction.

I think it was trending in an unpleasant direction even before ownership changes.

So it's not even all about that.

But

I don't engage with that.

And so

this whole sort of story has probably touched me less than some other people.

But at the same time,

yeah, it's a picture of choosing to take yourself out of something because you don't want the hassle.

And you make that choice and it comes with costs because if you're not on Twitter as much, you're not seen as much by the people who do want to see your work and by people who might give you work as a freelancer because they're seeing you on there.

So it's absolutely still damaging, even if you choose to select yourself out of it.

And it's a really hard debate, Barry, about whether you give oxygen to arseholes.

I mean,

I've

we talked about the WhatsApp group.

I was quite keen on having this conversation even before hearing like a real life effect on somebody like it's had on Lucy.

And you were less so, I think.

I haven't been inclined to talk about it, but then I am interested to hear Nikki and Lucy's point of view.

But, you know, there are a couple of, you know, high-profile blokes who are ranting and raving about

women being pundits and doing co-comms and shouldn't be allowed.

And then when Mary Earps won BBC Sports Personality the Year a certain

former tabloid editor turned T V host really you know lost his mind over it this stupid award

that is of very little or no consequence but they're they're just looking for polit publicity that's that's what they're after and I don't want to give it to them but it is a conversation worth having'cause you know what I wouldn't have thought Lucy would be particularly bothered by that kind of stuff.

So it's interesting to hear that she is.

I mean, and also, I think the real, in my experience, Lucy, the real difference is loads of people tell me I'm shit on Twitter, right?

And I tend to find it funny.

And sometimes occasionally, like, it'll hit you at the wrong time.

But they never say you're shit because you're a man.

They just say you're shit, right?

And that's such a massive fucking difference.

That's the thing that really is just so,

it so makes me so furious.

And, and you know, and and

I saw that with even a soccer and with Helen, right?

People would say you're shit, and then people would say your shit to Helen in a different way, in such a misogynistic way, and it'd be like, Well, and clearly, she wasn't, and at the start of it, I was so like, like they had a point with me.

I honestly think that people don't listen to what you're saying, you know, and I just think it's just as soon as they hear the female voice, it's like, oh, you know, how do you know?

Um, and I always

laugh and joke because

there's a little clip of Jake Paul kicking

a football.

And I always reply to people and go, Is this you kicking?

And it's literally a bloke that cannot kick a football to save his life.

And it's just like, and that's how I imagine these people, these people who have a go at me about my knowledge of football, cannot kick a ball straight to save their lives.

And

I honestly think that.

And it's probably something in them that's you know, they probably feel like they're lacking a little bit.

I don't know what it is.

I mean, of course, me and Barry have played at the highest level so like we we wouldn't understand but you know

yes Barry I'd also I think it's worth pointing out that on this zoom call I can see an irony board in the background of Lucy's shop

so that's Niels that's not mine it's Niels once she's finished talking about men things with with

she she'll get back to her proper calling in life well I mean the side note that I picked up was that Lucy has a Winnebago so you know someone's okay.

And yeah, anyway, that was a much more interesting conversation than a generic Premier League preview that we would have done instead.

So, look, we'll be back on Monday to cover those games.

Michael says,

on the subject of Chris Wood, we were quite patronising.

Why the backhanded praise of Chris Wood's scoring prowess?

He is equal in all-time Premier League goals with Beckham, Perez, and Yaya Toure 62.

It's almost like you developed an anti-Kiwi bias since living in Australia.

Yes, many apologies, Michael.

Has Chris Wood scored 62 goals?

Yeah, I know.

Really?

Wow.

I'm surprised.

I have to say that.

Yeah.

Neymar's cruise ship.

The MSC cruise will be attended by Neymar and some of his family and friends.

The journey will be marked by three parties.

It goes from Rio to Santos and back, which are a white party, a costume party, and a tropical party, as well as a number of activities and concerts by several famous Brazilian artists.

But if you pay enough, you can hang out with Neymar for three days.

It says the cruise will last three three days, will include casinos, bowling, a game room, a 4D cinema, a water park, a gym, a spa, theatre shows, and gastronomic options from all over the world.

The prices of the trip, which see passengers able to hang out with Neymar for 72 hours, God, range between 1,000 and 6,000 euros, according to Marker.

A luxurious trip that has the great addition of having the Brazilian player at some of the parties and concerts that will be held during the journey.

Barry, are you in?

I can't think of anything I'd rather do less in terms of going on holiday.

I always presume, you know, no one goes on a cruise till they're at least, I don't know, 70.

And then it might be fun.

But like, everything they've bigged up there, apart from the presence of Neymar, is just a cruise.

You know, that's what you get on cruises.

True.

I don't know, will he be on the ship the whole time, or does he just get choppered in for an hour and then choppered off again?

I don't know.

That's a very good question.

I mean, he likes to party, so you'd imagine he'll be there till, you know, he'll be there for most of the costume party.

We'd hope.

I've heard of like these cruises happening with like bands before, right?

So I had an excess really into the Bare Naked Ladies.

I know they did cruises sometimes where they'd be, but I sort of makes more sense because

you'd go and you'd watch them do a concert, wouldn't you?

I mean,

you'd assume they're going to do a concert on the boat, maybe they do some informal stuff.

Is Neymar going to do a performance?

Is he going to, or is he just going to be sort of behind a VIP rope at the party so I can sort of see him?

I hope he does cabaret.

I hope he says, and now I'll, and now I'll do The Way It Is by Bruce Hornsby in the Range.

And there's Neymar there just at a Casio keyboard.

Then, then suddenly I'm kind of in.

Anyway, football weekly cruise instead of the tour next year.

We could do that.

I mean, if my memories of the closest we've been is, of course, the ferry from Dublin to Hollyhead.

That didn't feel like a cruise, did it?

That felt like...

No, that's an experience I'd rather not repeat.

That was that ended up being avoiding an incredibly drunk Nottingham Forest fan.

You couldn't get away because you were on a boat hiding in the toilet, ferrying him towards Jonathan Wilson.

Um, but thank you if you're still listening.

Uh, we had a lovely time.

Uh, anyway, that'll do uh for today's pod.

Thanks, Lucy.

Thank you, thanks, Baz.

Thanks, thank you, Nikki.

Thanks, thanks.

Uh, football weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back on Monday.

This is The Guardian.