Manchester United crash out of Europe after latest limp display – Football Weekly

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Manchester United out of Europe, bottom of their group, worst ever Champions League performance.

Perhaps there's no shame in losing a tight game against Bayern, unbeaten in 40 Champions League group games, but they offered nothing.

Right now, United fans are getting very little, and despite the obvious problems with the ownership, how much pressure is Eric Ten Hag under?

Copenhagen Benefit, a brilliant campaign for them and richly deserved qualification for the knockouts.

Their budget is around a 20th of Manchester United's.

And with United out and Newcastle struggling, there's a great opportunity for some co-efficient chats.

Elsewhere, a draw for Arsenal.

who topped the group, but no Europa League for Sevilla.

How did that happen?

They win that tournament every year.

Also, we'll discuss the horrific attack on the referee in Turkey from a club president, the gripping changes to the amortisation rules, and Mark Langdon's Christmas dinner.

Again, I'm sure we've discussed the annual sprout already.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Felipe O'Claire, Bonjour Sava.

Sava, Max.

Yes, Jonathan Faduba.

Hello.

Good morning, Max.

Hello, Mark Langdon from the Racing Post.

Hi, Max.

Let's start old Trafford then.

Manchester United-nil by Munich 1.

Harry Kane's little flick to to Kingsley Komen.

The difference between these sides,

four points from six games is their lowest in any Champions League campaign.

15 goals conceded, the most by a Premier League side in any group stage of the competition.

Jonathan, you're a United fan, aren't you?

I mean, this is, it is, it was bleak yesterday.

Like,

I sort of thought, okay, look, keep it tight for 40, 50 minutes is okay, but there was, there was just nothing.

Yeah, it was a bit of a, bit of a nothing burger, a bit of a disappointment.

I have to say that didn't really think it was anything out of the ordinary for what Manchester United had been doing this season.

So I don't think anyone really expected much else.

I suppose going into the match, the interesting thing about what Ten Hag did was he changed the tactics slightly and went from the kind of the worry before the match was that United had been so kamikaze in their approach.

All the games are so open.

It's like basketball end-to-end, like the Chelsea game, for example, was a really good display of that.

So Ten Hag changed the tactics slightly and moved Bruno to sort of like a more of a defensive midfield role essentially.

He was a bit more deep and Scott McTominay was actually ahead of him as like more of a 10.

So they switched positions and tried to be more defensively solid which was, I suppose it showed at least that he's trying to do something to address the lack of balance in midfield, especially in transitions.

But I think the key thing that they maybe forgot is that they needed to win the game.

So the one game, the one game to decide to be tactically conservative was maybe not the one that you absolutely have to win it kind of worked to a certain extent but of course you always felt that buyer had an extra gear or two to go up and and and they did that really uh in the second half they there was a spell early in the second half where they just started to dominate possession um and you could tell a goal was kind of coming amrabat made a little mistake in his pressing um i think the injury for harry maguire didn't help i mean united let's be fair they have had a lot of injuries this season as well i mean there's a lot of talk about newcastle's injuries but united have had you know a lot of injuries that maybe don't get mentioned so much in ten hogs defense and obviously Johnny Evans positioning for the goal for for Kingsley Carmen's goal was a little bit you know he didn't know really whether to come out or stay and that created the spacing behind it's just poor isn't it it's just emblematic of a really bad season and when I say bad

you've got to look at the sort of context of the last decade it's it's almost one of the worst seasons of the last decade so I know that Ten Hag had a very positive first season but

the the sort of step back from last season is is is stunning, really.

So, yeah, not a good night, really.

And it's not been a great decade, right?

To be the worst of a decade.

That hasn't been

a great decade.

And, like, I mean, they lost this group, Mark, didn't they, in the games against Copenhagen and Galatasarai?

And actually, Copenhagen and Galatasarai were better than I think a lot of people thought they would be.

But still,

that draw, when the draw is made, if you're united, you're like, we have to come second in this group.

Yeah,

they should have come second.

I mean, you mentioned the sort of wage bill there

at the top.

Even with the injuries,

I don't think that that's a legitimate excuse for finishing bottom of this Champions League group.

I mean, there were a lot of defensive mistakes that have cost them, you know, way.

It wasn't the Baying game where they've lost, as you say, Max.

It was, you know, the...

particularly, I suppose, Nana errors as well in sort of key moments in the group.

Because if you go right back to when they played Bayern, they actually played quite well in Munich for the first half an hour.

It might have been sort of the best 30 minutes of the season, but then there were

big mistakes.

And if you can see demanded goals,

it becomes really difficult to qualify.

I just find Manchester United a really hard team to weigh up because

our eyes tell us that they're not very good.

And it has been like this for a decade.

And you just still expect more from them.

And

I don't know why we expect more.

It probably is because of

the wage spend, but it doesn't really matter who they bring in.

It doesn't matter manager or players.

It's just

a mess.

And to need to win a game, to have five shots and only one on target, was a meek exit.

Reminded me...

quite a lot actually of Conte's Tottenham exit against Milan in the Champions League.

Oh yes, don't remind me.

Yeah, but where they actually were, it felt like they were playing to save face rather than to actually, you know, to really go on and try to win.

And

I think Ten Hague was worried if they did try to win that game and lose four or five nil, then, you know, that's even worse.

But

I think you have to try to win.

And if you do get Tonk, then

you take a thrash in.

And yeah,

it feels like the end game for him, I think.

I'm not sure when he will go.

For Ten Hag, I mean, I don't see how he can...

I mean, I'm not saying maybe this game, and they've got Liverpool on Sunday, and Maguire and Shaw have just pulled up injured as well.

But

it's very rare that a manager comes back from kind of this.

And, you know, the tone of Jonathan's kind of analysis of that was, you know, as downbeat as sort of every other Manchester United fan.

And it's very difficult, I think, to come back from that.

Yeah.

Lars was on the TV with me yesterday saying probably wouldn't sack Ten Hague because If you bring someone in, you're bringing them into a bin fire, Philippe.

So like you could just let Ten Hag sit there.

There's no Europe now, one game a week or whatever, and just sort of plod through and maybe try and get fourth or fifth if fifth gets a Champions League spot.

I mean, I don't know what, I don't know what you think.

Yeah, I would agree with you.

The other thing is that who would you bring in, to be honest, in the current mess.

I do think that

I'm not trying to make excuses for Ten Hag.

I'm rather trying to find elements of explanation.

When we talk about the injuries,

the fact that

the way they played,

in many ways, Ten Hai didn't have much of a choice.

Sancho is out of the picture, we know that.

Martial and Rashford were unavailable, so that limits the options in attack.

You look at the back,

Lindelof was absent, of course.

Lisandro, Vara's just come back.

Christian Erickson, who can be a creative player, was also not available.

And you carry on.

Casimiro, who was actually one of their best players at the beginning of the season, is also absent for a while.

So

I don't think it's necessarily the right moment.

You know, they're not in danger of allegation.

They've got to keep in the race for a spot in Europe.

Maybe the fifth spot will qualify them for Europe, for the Champions League.

More about this later.

There's the FA Cup to go to go for, as Ten Hag himself said, but it's same old, same old, same old.

You know, I'm like Jonathan.

I'm not exactly a Manchester United supporter, but I think it's become the plodding mediocrity with the odd burst of brilliance that we've come to expect from Manchester United since Alex Ferguson left.

And

I was looking at actually Manchester United's performance in the Champions League since he had left.

It's pathetic.

They've reached the quarterfinals twice, including once with David Moyes,

who actually did, they had a pretty decent campaign that year, 2013-14.

But other than that, they've exited regularly Roundup 16, group phase.

They have a major problem in Europe as well, which is not just

because of Ten Hag.

And then I thought as well that there's this guy, this billionaire coming in who's going to shake everything up.

He still hasn't signed, has he?

The agreement is...

They've agreed to agree, but they haven't signed the agreement.

I mean, what kind of a signal does this give?

And why would changing a manager who has got a depleted squad in which some players are genuinely not pulling their weight and it's not necessary to announce fault, how would it make it better to bring in whom, by the way?

Zinedin Sidan?

Do you think Zidedian Sidan is going to come to Manchester United?

Do you think he's mad?

Who would you bring in, Max?

I have absolutely no idea.

I mean, I think the interesting thing about the recruitment for United, be it manager or players, is they...

They kind of have to sign big players because of who they are.

But they can't sign the best players because the best players don't want to go there so they sign these incredibly talented players that have a problem like have some sort of issue about them so they don't get young guys i mean i mean i says holy there's a young guy with potential but it's sort of working like the recruitment is so but liverpool has signed dominique shaboslai who's a super player but he's not top top top top top class or he wasn't yeah uh manchester city is one of their best uh players over the recent past has been manufactured

hello not a huge signing could carry on like that sure i i don't see.

Oh, I had forgotten Mason Melt as well.

He's not there.

And he's, in a way, so symptomatic, emblematic of what is wrong with this club.

Well, I think there's two main issues there, really.

I mean, there's one that you can look at recruitment, and we could literally sit here for five hours discussing recruitment because it's been so bad over the last 10 years.

And that's where...

I think my limit is four hours.

That's where we devolve the ownership of it on Ten Hag, though, because the recruitment has been...

uniformly bad for 10 years pretty much.

Ten Hag's own recruitment has been pretty bad and I think there can be a lot of question marks about that and I think that's where his job may start to come under scrutiny because he's signing players and then not playing them for example.

I know Mount's been injured but even when he was fit he was kind of on the bench at times.

60 million on a player who was out of contract.

Why would that be sanctioned when they needed a sort of robust midfielder?

And Rabat yesterday as I mentioned week 50-50.

He's not great, is he?

I just don't think he's he's just not good enough on the ball.

I mean it's like a Carol Poborsky sign signed a player who's had a good sort of, you know, international international tournament.

And, you know,

I question that.

I mean, even that's on loan.

You've had Walt Weghorst.

You've had, you know, you could go on for ages about United's recruitment.

So that's one problem.

And I think Ten Hark has to take a little bit of ownership of that because the transfers this, I mean, Antony is a great example, really.

Like,

I think he's scored zero.

I think Jadon Sancho is still the top scorer for the last player to score for United in the Premier League last forward.

So that kind of sums up where the forwards at the moment are.

You've got got Marshall whose contract is expiring but should have probably left the club two or three years ago when he was loaned out to Sevilla.

So the recruitment is one area, but I think the area where you start to worry about Ten Hag for me is the tactical setup of United is clearly wrong.

They're so open on transition.

They conceded 15 goals in this group stage against Galatasarai, Copenhagen, and Bayer Munich.

It's just way too many goals to concede.

What they tend to do, United, is fly.

And what really interesting interesting part of this last night was Thomas Tushel's analysis.

In about 20 seconds, he basically obliterated United's whole tactical system before the match in this pre-match interview with TNT Sport.

He said, United leave, they leave too many players.

They attack with kind of like a six.

So they take a risk in possession.

And he said, like, the opportunity is that you can counter-attack them when the ball breaks down.

And he said, that's why they're quite vulnerable.

And that's what we're going to try and exploit, essentially.

And he did that.

And

playing playing united is quite easy really you you wait bournemouth did exactly the same thing you wait for united to fly forward you wait for the attack to break down because the front three aren't creative enough there's no real cohesion um if you look at say a liverpool or an arsenal when they're attacking the forwards the wide forwards and the and the striker there's a plan of like what they're going to do to score a goal um united don't have a plan in the sense of they don't cross the ball to a sort of powerful front man target man who can head the ball they don't sort of get in behind and make cutbacks that can you know for tap-ins and things like that so the wide players can't really beat their man too often.

So there's no like tactical plan up front to score goals.

And then when the move breaks down, they're so open that within two or three passes, you're in on goal.

And this is where I think that he's in serious trouble, Senhag, in the sense that I can't see the Liverpool game being anything other than four or five nil, like genuinely.

And I think that's the thing for United fans, there's almost no hope of going into that game getting anything.

You then look at the next games after that, they've sort of got Villa, West Ham, unless they change, unless he sticks with what he did against Bayern last night, maybe, and starts to play a bit more conservatively in the midfield, which there were signs there, a little bit of encouragement in terms of being a bit more balanced

in the transitions, then teams are just going to keep coming to Trafford or playing United.

And every time the move breaks down,

they don't get back into transitioning into shape quick enough and they leave themselves so open.

The concern for that, just to finalise on that, is that Tenha keeps saying, well, it was a great performance.

If you watch his post-match interview, he said it was a very good performance.

he said galatasara was very good we've proven in the last few weeks that we can play really well against chelsea and you know chelsea could have scored six in that game it was just a case of they're worse than the united so it wasn't like a good performance it was just a case of chelsea even worse so i think that is the worrying thing that if he genuinely believes that these are good performances then you start to wonder tactically is he

is he actually aware of what he's trying to do or is he is he masking it by just pretending it's good and trying to keep morale up apart from that it's it's great.

On Hoyland,

Mark, Chris sat on the radio yesterday was quite interesting.

He said, I don't know if he's good or not because he's so starved of service.

Because obviously there was this big comparison with Hoyland and Kane and Kane had that one moment, right?

It's a beautiful touch.

And we all know he can do that.

He didn't really do anything else in the game, but it didn't matter.

But, you know, they've got this guy who has scored a few in the Champions League.

He's got no Premier League goals.

That's Sancho's.

That is unbelievable.

And he cost a lot of money, Hoyland.

He did.

But I think throwing him into that team, as Jonathan was just saying, that doesn't have a sort of cohesive way of attacking

just is like lamb to the slaughter for him because, you know, it really would be difficult.

I think, I mean, Kane has performed in sort of teams that don't function very well

previously, but I think it would even be difficult for Harry Kane to kind of just go in at Manchester United and suddenly have fixed all of their problems.

God, how deep would he have to drop?

Yeah, well, he would be very deep.

Yeah, but I mean, Paul Scholes was on UK TV saying that the recruitment should have been easy in the summer.

They should have just bought rice and cane as if it's like that easy to, you know, to just buy those players if you're Manchester United now and spend 200 million plus on wages.

I mean, you know, United have been criticised for going, you know, short term on many of their signings.

And then they get criticised for thinking longer term with somebody like Hoyland.

And

I wouldn't write him off yet.

I think we've seen enough from him individually.

It was tough for him in this game because United were playing very cautiously.

But I think there's been enough in the Champions League in the Premier League to see that there is a player in there.

But at the moment,

it's hard for any individual to shine when just the unit is broken as it is.

So I'd lay off him

for the time being.

But if you're the Manchester United striker, you've cost a lot of money, you haven't scored a Premier League goal, then you are going to be on the receiving end.

I mean, that's just life at a club like United.

Would you agree, Mark, as well, that Holland is a player who would actually thrive if he had another centre forward with him?

He's more, you know, when you saw him play in Serie A, he was very good playing off players, playing them in.

He's quite a fighter as well.

He's quite a decent finisher.

He's no Holland.

He's no Harry Kane.

He's a different type of player.

He's a good player, but he just has nobody that he can actually create a relationship with up front.

He's isolated for sure.

Yeah, completely isolated.

So no Europe for Man United.

Producer Joel says we should move on.

We'll do another 20 minutes on United when they get thrashed by Liverpool.

No Europe for them.

Newcastle may not get through, like they're up against it tonight.

What are the implications on whether fifth will be a Champions League spot?

Because I think at the start of the season, everyone went, well, if you come fifth, you get the Champions League.

But because of coefficients,

could you explain it as succinctly as possible?

You're talking to me here.

Yes, I chose the wrong guy.

But, you know, do your best.

No, no, no.

I've actually tried to understand how this was going to work.

And my short answer would would be it's too early to say, but there are reasons to be actually worried if indeed not having a fifth spot in the Champions League in the new expanded 30-16 Champions League, which is kicking off in 24-25, if it's a matter to be worried about, or if you think it's actually overkill.

That's another subject altogether.

But the way it is, is that the two...

member associations, the two countries which have got the most points over this season, 23-24, will inherit an an extra place in the Champions League, direct group phase.

England has been top of those season coefficients for the last three years.

West Ham is the current Europa Conference League holder, Manchester City is champion of Europe.

So quite naturally, people said, you know, English football is dominating Europe, so therefore it's quite logical that you should get an extra place.

The problem is that by shedding two teams, if indeed Newcastle don't qualify, and it's a big if, would actually be detrimental, very detrimental to the English cause because at the moment, as it stands, after last night's game, Mark, you might have checked, I think they've updated the UEFA website now, but as I see it, there are three countries ahead of England at the moment, and these countries are Germany, Spain, and Italy, not very surprisingly.

Part of the problem is that Germany has got three teams which will take part in the round of 16 and will therefore accrue points.

Spain, amazingly, thanks to Real Society has amazing performance.

I've got four teams and Italy, I've already got three because Napoli qualified as well and they've got Milan playing tonight, obviously.

So you're fighting against other big leagues which already have got, will have bigger representation in the Champions League, which weighs far, far more in determining the coefficient than the other competitions.

You need for this fifth spot to be available for two English clubs, you would need A, the clubs who joined the Champions League to go as deep as possible in the tournament.

And you hope that they're going to do the same thing in the Europa League and even the Conference League as well.

So you hope that the Villas and the Liverpools will go very, very far.

That means final or winning it, in order to accrue enough points to ward off the threat posed by the three other big leagues.

At the moment it looks a bit concerning, I must say.

I would say, Max, if you are sort of supporting a team that is

in that sort of battle for fifth, if you like, you really are cheering on Newcastle against Milan and sort of to pip Paris Saint-Germain for that second spot because all wins from the group stage in all three of the competitions are worth two points.

So even Europa League for Newcastle could be a big deal.

And if they were to go out altogether, whatever points are

sort of collected by the other teams going forward, it's averaged out by how many you kind of started off with.

So, you know, Manchester United and potentially Newcastle would be doing damage um to to to the overall um picking so um yeah it's uh it's it'd be a cruel twist of fate i suppose for manchester united maybe quite poetic if they finished fifth but their performances in the champions league ruin their um sort of champions league position for next season Copenhagen came second.

It's massive for them.

Second time in their history they've made it the knockouts in such a difficult group.

The scenes at the end are absolutely brilliant.

We've mentioned their budget is tiny.

They scored a lovely goal, had a guy sent off, same player actually uh and then galatasarai sort of bombarded them it's one amazing scramble at the end of that game but uh it would have been too little too late um but we should jonathan celebrate that achievement from copenhagen shouldn't we yeah and i think you've got to you've got to i'm glad you mentioned that actually max because you've got to give massive shout out to to copenhagen and what they've done i feel like a lot of times in the champions league there's a lot of talk of teams who were spoken about as if they're just minnows and terrible teams.

But I feel like you do have to acknowledge, I know that it was, listen, Man United should have qualified, I'm not ignoring that, but the group wasn't actually as easy as I feel that people thought it was, if that makes sense.

Copenhagen are a really strong team.

They've got a really good recruitment setup.

They recruit really good young, talented players.

Rooney Baji was a good example.

The manager, Neesdra, has done excellently, excellent work.

They're really well organised.

Even Galatasara, you know, it's like a hard place to go and win games.

And I feel like that's one of the things with Manchester United at the moment.

They're not good enough to claim as if they're better than these bigger teams,

than these, sorry, the so-called smaller teams.

I felt like it was already a bit of complacency there.

Copenhagen are a really, really good side, as I mentioned.

Neestrop's come out and said that, you know, we've, we fully deserve to finish second and we're going to approach the last 16 in the same way.

Depending on who they get, I don't think you can write them off depending on who they get.

I think a strong team will probably take them apart but they showed in the games against Bayern, especially even in the Atlanta arena, that they can go toe-to-toe with the big teams as well and give them a game.

So I think there is a narrowing of the gap of sort of the so-called small teams and the so-called big teams in the Champions League.

Now, there isn't a massive difference as other teams in this competition, like Braga

and Napoli, for example, if you want to look at them at their success last season, have shown.

Two things.

First of all, we shouldn't transform Copenhagen's story into a fairy tale.

They're by far the best, the most, in the richest club in Denmark, and they win everything there.

They've just done the double, and they're basically doing to the Danish league what Scanto Riga used to do, you know, in Latvia.

So that's one thing.

The second thing, though, I wondered if you knew what the Danish for white wall would be, because I have to say that Section 12 in that stadium, when they all wear these outfits, which are a bit like

cameos or standing players in one floor of a cuckoo's nest or something like that,

the white blouses.

Yeah, the white ponchos is quite a sight.

It's quite intimidating.

That's the thing.

It's like ghostly.

Yeah,

it's, I was going to say, it looks slightly sinister.

Yeah, it looks sinister.

Yeah, yeah.

Can't we just have one fairy tale without you saying, the thing is, guys, that's just

have one fairy tale that is genuine a fairy tale.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll rattle through the rest of the Champions League games.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, Group B, then Arsenal win the group.

PSB comes second.

Launce beats Sevilla, which means Sevilla are out of Europe, despite Sergei Ramos Panenka

stud the goalkeepers off classic Ramos moment.

But let's start with that Arsenal draw.

They changed their side a lot.

I mean, I guess, Mark, the interesting thing is that they could have brought on some teenagers and ended up bringing on Declan Rice and Ben White and Martin Erdegaard because Arteta says it wasn't the right context to play young players.

But it's so hard to think of a better context to play young players, I guess.

It does.

It happens so often that, you know, we hear managers complaining about the amount of games that are being played and we've seen all the injuries that the players are getting now.

And when there is the opportunity to completely rest everyone and sort of bring on loads of younger players, very rarely actually do managers sort of take that path.

I think it's maybe one, of course, Arsenal lost against Aston Villa on sort of Saturday.

So maybe...

Arteta's just thinking there, we don't want to suddenly go two games and then it becomes free and all of a sudden, you've got a problem that didn't need to be there, and you're stopping the rot in inverted commas straight away.

I think sometimes managers don't like to give opportunities to youngsters too early if they don't think they're ready or deserve it, and that can actually send out the wrong message of kind of that you've made it and they haven't.

And so, there's a protection, and also maybe the carrot and the stick there in terms of

what a young player needs to do to actually reach that level of, say, I don't know, El Neni or whatever it is.

So I think that often comes into

the minds of managers.

But

I was a bit surprised that Saliba played and Gabrielle.

And then he is bringing on sort of real quality players.

But

maybe Arteta's thinking about the greater need of the Premier League and these coefficient points.

And yeah,

every point helps.

Yeah.

He wants Tottenham in fifth to get in the Champions League, doesn't he?

Anyway, look, they've won the group.

It's really good for them.

And it'd be really, really interesting to see how they get on in the knockouts.

Because I don't know what you think, Philippe, from an Arsenal point of view, but

they could actually win the Champions League.

They've got the quality.

It's difficult because other teams have been there and they haven't, but they could.

Possibly.

could.

I don't think they're favorites, but I think they would be second tier favourites, given the way that they've certainly toughened up, the way that they've improved in terms of squad, the way that some players, the fact that Kai Havertz, for example, is really starting to look like the Kai Havertz we didn't know existed, because we've been looking for Kai Hawatz for a very long time.

It's certainly something that Mikel Arteta has put as a definite objective.

It's not just the league.

It's very clear by what he says and the attitude of the players that they consider it is an attainable objective, which is quite progress, isn't it?

Matt says, are the knockout stages of the Europa League legally allowed to take place if Sevilla aren't involved?

Obviously, Sevia have an amazing record in this competition, Jonathan.

But yeah, they were knocked out by Lance.

I think once Ramos scored that penalty, I think we all thought, ah, Sevir are going to get through, and then they didn't.

And so it's just they're so good in this tournament that you just presume they'll always be in it.

Yeah, but I mean, Philippe will be able to tell more about Lance and, you know, they're a very good side in my opinion.

Obviously, beat Arsenal as well.

Yeah, at home, beat Arsenal as well.

Got an intense stadium.

I mean, you just talked about sort of Copenhagen's atmosphere.

Lance can create a hell of an atmosphere as well, I think, with their fans.

They have a good record against Spanish teams as well.

I think they've lost one in their last nine in UEFA matches against Spanish teams.

So a bit of a, I don't know, a bit of curiosity there in that sense.

But no, I think Launcelot have put in a decent effort in the Champions League, considering it's been such a long time since they participated in it.

And also, if you consider the recent history, you know, the rise of them uh over the last sort of four or five years so i think the launch have done magnificently and that probably shouldn't be ignored severe yeah it's um

i'm not sure of severe this i i i didn't really think they were great in the games i saw this season i don't know too much about what exactly is going on on there but no i didn't feel this was like vintage you know severe of old or who who you who you can stake you know you can put your hat on it's certainly it's certainly vintage old severe i mean like it's certainly a team of very old yeah yeah yeah in that sense but but maybe it it isn't, it's not, it's old vintage Sevilla, not vintage old Sevilla, or whichever way round it is.

But yeah, anyway, they'll be back next year almost certainly.

I mean, Group C, Real Madrid, top of the group.

They won all their games.

Napoli in second, beat Braga.

There was some jeopardy if Braga had a big win against Napoli, but they didn't get it.

For Real Madrid, Mark, I mean, you feel for Unio Berlin, right?

They had a pretty wretched campaign.

There was a nice story that they had to stand opposite their ultras and get yelled at.

But actually, the ultras went, do you know what, guys, we're just really pleased you're in the Champions League.

Like, don't stress about it.

It it was like the opposite of those kind of marseille milan ultra moments they were just like guys it's all fine let's have a nice time we're doing okay um but for around madrid it's interesting that josolou is there i mean i i don't know if i've got the sort of chupa motings about him just because he did play for stoke he therefore can't really be good and maybe he is good but like

he's because Vinicius is injured, right?

He's sort of important to them now.

Yeah, I think it depends on your level of good.

I mean, he's good in that he's a professional footballer fully deserves to have had a you know professional football um career i don't think he's real madrid good um and is there um because he's happy to be a backup it's not easy to find somebody that you know knows their place within a squad and you know will come on and probably i i'm assuming be very good in training and not kick up a fuss to anchilotti that you know he can't go knocking on the door saying you know how can vinicius be ahead of me um gaffer you know so he has to

i hope he does So he knows his place within the team.

He offers something very different in that, you know, they've got mobile forwards that don't actually occupy the sort of penalty area, if you like.

And Hosalu

just gives them that sort of penalty box presence.

You know, if you were chasing a game, plan B, sort of whack it forward and hope for something in the last few minutes, or to come in for a game like this where it doesn't, you know, really matter and you can save the Les because we've seen players like Diaz, for instance, come in and play with Rodrigo and Benningham essentially becomes the sort of furthest man forward but yeah you I mean I think Real Madrid were in a tricky spot when you know when Benzema left they couldn't be sure they were getting Mbappe and of course they didn't get Mbappe they they needed somebody in there and in the end they went for a cheap option

probably to save their money for

you know to offer probably to kill in Mbappe in a few months time so

he's a sensible enough signing, but if they win the Champions League,

I don't think it'll be down to Hosolu's brilliance.

Could he be Real Madrid's Devokorighi rather than Supermuting?

That's the question.

Well, possible.

That is possible, isn't it?

Where, Jonathan, do you have Real Madrid on your list of favourites?

I feel like they're sort of level with Arsenal, which is a strange thing to say, really.

Yeah, up front, they're still a little, and Drew Bellingham has almost carried them in terms of goals at the moment.

He's been so, so good.

His transfer has just been incredible.

And, of course, as you mentioned, Hosalu isn't exactly Karen Benzema.

So

I think

they've got a good chance, but I still, I think, I think there are worries probably about

the defence and

the balance of the team as well at times in games.

So I think they're going to, you know, you can never write off Real Madrid and they're an excellent club at that.

You know, once you get to the knockout stages, Realm Madrid have that aura about them.

I know we spoke about Arsenal just now, but I do feel like they do have a decent chance.

I think the Champions League is quite open this season.

I don't think there's like a clear sort of second or third favourites, really.

So

you'd expect to see them in the semi-finals, but I could equally imagine seeing, for example, Arsenal in the semifinals.

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned

defensively not

as solid.

There was one of the Union in Berlin goals, I don't know what David Aliba was doing, but it was absolutely sensational Sunday League, kind of just like, oh, I'll just try and kick this somewhere and just sort of lobbed it to a Union Berlin player to slot it home.

Or did he head it home?

I can't remember now, Mark.

You maybe remember.

You can't slot home a header.

No, you can't, of course, you can't.

It was Volan's goal.

I'm trying to remember exactly.

I mean, I sort of, yeah, I was only focusing on the Alabama mistake.

Yes, of course.

That was the only bit

from that goal that I can sort of take.

Despite any concerns about them, they've still got 100% record from this group stage.

So you've also got to acknowledge that when it comes to Europe,

they kind of know what they're doing around Madrid.

And when Truemeni comes back, they will have the best young midfield in Europe.

And that's the new discussion.

Can I

Truameni Bellingham tell me if there's anything better or if there will be anything better in the year or two years to come?

I don't think so.

Yeah, producer Joel hasn't.

He did slot it home, so it wasn't a head-up from the Alaba mistake.

But yeah, so Real Madrid won all their games, including beating Napoli twice.

Napoli threw in second, beating Braga 2-0.

Quite a comical own goal and quite a comical Victor Osserman finish as well.

They're having a a tricky season domestically,

so it would be nice to see Napoli doing well this year.

We all thought they'd be the team that could surprise everyone, but they sort of ran out of gas last year, didn't they?

Group D, Sociedad winner into a second.

They drew 0-0.

And we mentioned Sociedad in the coefficient chat of earlier, Mark, but like,

how good are they?

Yeah, I mean, didn't show up much in this game, but earlier on in the campaign, been one of of the teams to take out of the group stage the way that they've played, the way that they've pressed.

Very well coached, got a lot of sort of younger players that are progressing.

A few have making it through now to the Spanish national team as well.

And winning the difference between winning the group and finishing second, I mean, looking at who's going to win the groups could be absolutely massive this time around.

And so for them to go to San Siro and get the draw, huge for them because you know

you might end up you you might end up winning the group and maybe getting Paris Saint-Germain but the chances of getting a smaller team are greater and so you have to give yourself the best opportunity and from Inter's point of view I couldn't believe that they were wrestling players.

I thought that was such a big game to not have Lautaro, Martinez playing and Barela.

To me that that was a big mistake and

yeah they're almost certainly going to pay for it because looking at the teams that are going to win the groups, they'll be outsiders, I think, to qualify against any of the group winners.

And yeah, it might be the difference between them making the quarter finals and So Shaddad.

So

I think Nzagi placed a little bit too much faith in these sort of backups and paid the price.

You asked me if Wayman Madrid could finish.

I think Intera are actually one of the strongest teams in the Champions League this season.

I think they've got a real chance potentially of going

maybe not maybe back to the final again.

I think Inzagi has done an incredible job in terms of the way they play.

They can counter-attack well, the way they spread the ball around, the build-up.

I feel like they're a really, really strong team, actually.

And I think they're a little bit underrated.

It kind of got overlooked how well they did in the final last year, for example, against City.

And yeah, I just think they're a team to keep an eye on, definitely, in the knockout stages, Inter.

So I just wanted to give them a bit more of a mention because I feel they could be strong.

Do I believe you or Mark?

That's a very difficult.

In this particular game, I'm not sure, but I think in general, in terms of the context of the competition, how they're performing under Nzagi, I feel they're a strong team.

I would say I've no problem with the quality of Inter.

I just think not winning the group is going to make life very tough for them.

Ben Figa lost their first four games of this Champions League group stage, and yet they've qualified for the Europa League.

They needed to win,

and they needed to win 3-1, basically, and they did, or by two clear goals, didn't they?

And they did that in the last minute with a back heel from Cabral.

What a wonderful moment for them and a bit of a shame for R.B.

Salzburg.

So Bedvick will be in the Europa League.

Just quickly in the EFL, Johnny,

someone called Johnny tweeted, not us, but just sent a tweet.

My favourite statistic of the night and perhaps the week or perhaps the year.

Tonight is the first time Leeds United have named a starting 11 in which all players were born after Tony Yaboa's goal against Liverpool.

And it turned out, and they lost 1-0 at Sunderland.

So clearly the message is they should always field somebody born before that goal.

Yes, Mark?

I just want to say as well, on a night when Manchester United went out of the Champions League and maybe bemoaning coaching ideas and philosophy, somebody they had at the club, Kieran McKenna, continues to work his magic with Ipswich who got an

top of the table with another sort of crucial away win.

So maybe there's a lesson there that

there were solutions maybe inside the club.

Yeah, yeah, they won at Watford.

And on Saturday, the early kickoff is it's the carrot munching East Anglia and Derby, Norwich against Ips, which.

Okay, that'll do for part two.

Part three will do any other business.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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A proper football journalist, mate.

Exactly.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, a Turkish football club president, you'll probably have seen it, has been arrested after punching a referee following a top-flight game on Monday.

MKE Ankara Gudchu president Farouk Koka ran onto the pitch, struck the match official Halil Umut Mele after his team conceded a 97th minute equalizer in a one-all draw with Kaikur Rizaspor.

He's since apologised.

I apologise to the Turkish referee community, sports public and our nation, no matter how great injustice or wrong it is.

Nothing can legitimise or explain the violence that I committed, which I definitely did not desire.

The Justice Minister said that Koka and two others were formally arrested for injuring a public official.

All Turkish league football has been suspended following the incident.

Pierre Luigi Kalina, FIFA's referee's chief, said that there are thousands of refs around the world who are verbally and physically abused at lower levels of the game across the world.

They're unknown.

The vast majority of them are young referees.

Early in their careers, a referee cannot be beaten because of a decision they took, even if it's wrong.

His or her car cannot be bombed or set on fire because of a penalty kick.

Unfortunately, this is not an exaggeration, as car bombs and cars are being set on fire.

It's something that's happened in some countries and not so rarely.

It is a responsibility for all those who love the beautiful game to take action and to do something before it's too late, before this cancer will kill football.

Which is all right, isn't it, Philippe?

Absolutely.

I don't think that we have

anything to say that apart from the fact that what happened was utterly appalling,

because that was a proper punch as well.

You saw the pictures of the poor referee after the game, my goodness.

Absolutely right that some action should be taken.

And the situation in Turkey is just crazy.

Referees are fair game there in the media as well.

I was reading about it, I mean, reading about the fact that Turkish newspapers do publish like, they do dox referees, you know, in print.

They also do analysis of their mistakes and they analyze how these mistakes are favoring this team and are harming that other team.

So they're really feeding up this fire.

And so therefore something has got to be done very quickly in Turkey.

The one thing that I find a little bit regrettable is the fact that I wish that UEFA and FIFA had been as quick and swift to respond to assaults on referees in the past, but that hasn't been the case.

This seems to allow two rules, but perhaps the fact that this incident is so serious

will lead UEFA and FIFA to actually look at it and to be far stronger in their response to this type of events, which unfortunately are becoming more and more frequent and which also should serve as a reminder for us, and I really mean all of us, and I don't mean that in a condescending way.

I include myself in this,

to think twice about our comments, even jocular comments when a referee makes a mistake or we talk about a VAR mistake or so forth, because we're finding the fire.

And it leads to this, and it will lead to more serious things in the future.

While we're on,

referees, Howard Webb did the rounds on his VAR

chat.

And the main point of interest was Simon Hooper not playing advantage for Man City at the end when Erling Haaland, with all his hair, was so angry about it.

It's an officiating mistake, and the VAR has no part to play in this, said Howard Webb.

We're always looking as officials to have positive influences on the game by trying to identify occasions when we can allow the game to play through an advantage.

He decides to penalise just at the moment as the ball's about to go.

He blows the whistle, then realises that a wonderful advantage was available.

He was devastated.

He'd refereed the game really well for 93 minutes, but he knew this is going to be the only talking point.

It would have been a wonderful advantage.

So people make mistakes, he made a mistake.

We move on.

Mike says, What does the panel make of the new amortization plan?

And where does this leave Chelsea?

This is the news that Premier League clubs have voted to limit the period over which a player's transfer fee can be spread in their accounts to five years, regardless of the length of contract.

Chelsea are the sort of most well-known for this

amortization of an eight-year contract, so it helps you with FFP.

The rule change will not be backdated to include transfers that have already happened or contracts already signed.

Brings the Premier League in line with UEFA, which sets sets its own five-year limit on transfer fee

amortisation in June.

Um,

it feels like Mark Chelsea come out of this quite well because they've amortized everyone, and now no one can amortise anything, none of us can be amortized anymore.

Yeah, I wondered what way Chelsea were going to vote.

Um, in, and um, yeah, big surprise that they came down the way they did.

I think, um, it makes sense.

Um, you know, Chelsea, I mean, they believe they found a loophole.

Um, I mean, the performances on the pitch might suggest that

maybe not gone down the right path.

But

I do think that

teams will just look for other ways to kind of

make FFP work for them.

I don't see it being a huge difference sort of to how most people were trading.

But what Chelsea and their sort of highest profile, I suppose, example of it did feel quite odd.

And it makes sense for Premier League to fall in line with UEFA, I think.

You want people competing in the same competitions to abide by the same rules where possible, I think.

It's not always

the way you can go about it, but

it does feel like you should all be playing

the same rules.

Will Billy Crystal do a follow-up to analyse this called Amortize This, featuring Mikana Mudrick and Moses Kaisedo?

What a film that would be.

Jonathan, your hand is raised.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing to point out, I think, that may confuse some people is this is this is an accounting trick.

It's not like it's not, the rule doesn't state that you can't sign players on contracts more than five years.

Because I feel like there's some well, some people I spoke, there's a bit of confusion.

It's more about how the contracts are dealt with in the financial accounts.

So they can only be spread over that five-year cost.

Because I think, you know, for example, if you pay 100 million, the cost of that is spread over the five years as an accounting trick.

I think Destiny New Doggie just signed a seven-year deal at Spurs yesterday, right?

A new deal till 2030.

So I think just for a bit of clarity,

clubs can still sign players on longer contracts, I think, than five years, but

they have to be paid off.

The

amortisation of that

is over the five years, which I think is fair, really.

And

I mean,

Chelsea haven't had much praise or kind of

anything positive to say, but I guess in that sense, they did find a bit of a loophole, as Mark's mentioned there,

but it's been quickly closed off I suppose so they're gonna have to find a different way to to um sort of get around some of these uh accounting accounting um tricks in in in the in the ffp rules mark i just wanted to clarify so i've got a question for you mark because i'm asking you the question because i don't have the answer and does that mean that chelsea will have to prepare two different sets of accounts or would have had to prepare two different sets of accounts had they qualified for a european competition god it would make that black books episode incredibly long, wouldn't it?

With Dylan Moran

doing his tax return.

I don't know if I need Chelsea to do Chelsea's having to leaf through one, not that I obviously have leafed through one set of Chelsea's accounts, but for those who are so inclined, to have to do it twice would really be overkill, wouldn't it?

Jake says, what does Mark's Christmas dinner look like?

Stephen says, Will Mark just have turkey and pigs in blankets at Christmas lunch?

And what sort of dessert?

Suet using the Christmas pudding to ensure meat theme continues?

I'm sure we've had this conversation, Mark, haven't we?

Max, this is where the kind of the uh

it all began, it's where it all began.

When I did a mic test on a boxing day, and instead of what did you have for breakfast, your question was, what did you have for Christmas dinner?

And then when I reeled off what I had for Christmas dinner, you said, Where's the vegetables?

and that was that was um and then you was like save it for the pod, save it for the pod.

So, um, that that was um that that was how it started in terms of dessert.

I mean, I do eat a lot on Christmas day, so it would actually quite be

Come on, talk us through it.

Here we go.

So

star would usually be some kind of

prong cocktail,

maybe with a bit of lobster tail in there

as well.

The sort of the main centrepiece of the day would involve, controversially, Yorkshire pudding, but we would go for Yorkshire pudding on even that.

It's kind of a vegetable in your world, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, it takes up potentially too much real estate, but it is there.

You've got your turkey, pigs in blankets, plenty of roast potatoes, and sausage meat is kind of on there as well with the pigs in blankets.

So that's what the main.

Sorry, can I just show you?

Do you have pigs in blankets and sausage meat?

There's two separate things?

Yeah, I have both of

those, yeah.

So we have pigs in blankets and then I have some sausage meat as well.

Where a lot of people might have, say, stuffing, I'll have some sausage meat.

And then for dessert, usually something like sticky toffee pudding and custard.

We might go for some cheese and we'll finish up quite late with a seafood platter.

So, yeah, good dad.

How's that seafood platter fitting in?

Where's that come from?

A late dance seafood platter.

I'd say that comes out about nine o'clock.

Right.

And where are the quality streets in all of this?

Sort of all through the day?

I'm not a huge, I'm not a huge chocolate eater, mate.

I like to look after the body where I can.

Of course.

Where I can is doing a lot of of heavy lifting there, mate.

So I don't, I probably won't eat any chocolates on Christmas Day.

But you'll have some butter?

Oh, well, yeah.

Well,

usually a crumpet starter

in terms of breakfast.

So yeah, you can imagine the amount of work the butter does on those crumpets.

Charlie says, is Barry taking a break to avoid sending all us listeners a flutter too often?

This is in relation to the comedian Chloe Petts, who was on the Football Clichés podcast the other day.

And they'd just been talking about Barry's acceptance speech at the FSA's for pod of the year.

Thank you, by the way, for voting for us.

And then they brought Chloe on, who said, and this is a quote, I don't get starstruck apart from around football pundits.

So the mention of Barry Glendenning sent me all a quiver.

I am very torn about whether to mention this to Barry.

Perhaps we should because, you know, it'll make him feel 10 feet tall.

But it was a lovely.

Thank you, Chloe.

Delighted to hear it on Barry's behalf.

And a lovely email from Hugo to finish off.

It says, Hi, Max, Barry and Co.

I hope this message finds you well.

Amongst the chaos of moving to a new country and entering into the working world, I never got a chance to thank the pod for the massive amount of support myself and my friends received a while ago.

I don't know if you remember, but I wrote to you guys about my suicide awareness efforts back in May of last year, and I was deeply touched by the incredible support from the Football Weekly family.

The support meant the world to me, and I wanted to share the incredible achievement.

All of you helped make possible.

We raised a remarkable 6,547 euros, which will be used by Darkness into Light to help fund therapists, talk to 541 people in distress, support 65 dedicated therapy sessions, or provide 145 crisis counseling sessions.

This is an astounding achievement.

I wanted to thank everyone who reached out, donated, and helped spread awareness.

It was so touching to hear from so many of you and all of your individual stories.

You have no idea the potential difference you've made to so many people who need it most.

I also want to give special thanks to both Max and Barry.

I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to touch base and exchange stories with so many listeners, which was a really heartwarming experience.

I don't know if you are aware, but a common theme from many of the Football Weekly listeners I spoke to was how the pod never fails to brighten up their day and how much of a difference it makes to their lives.

You guys are making a real difference to so many people's lives.

So thank you.

Keep up the great work.

I look forward to reading your book when I get home for Christmas.

All the best, Hugo.

Thank you, Hugo.

And, you know, more importantly than any of us, thank you to all the listeners who on the occasions we do those kind of things.

It is really heartwarming to know that it's a, you know, without getting too trite about it, is a family.

And, you know, like listeners from over the world, getting in touch with Hugo was like very moving to see from our point of view as well.

So thank you and thank you for your email.

We appreciate it.

Football Weekly at theguardian.com.

If you want to get in touch, and that'll do for today.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Max.

Huge fan of Pigs and Buckets and Sausage Meat.

That's just so utterly tremendous.

Thank you, Jonathan.

You're welcome, Max.

Thank you.

Thanks, Billy.

Thank you, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is the Guardian.