An episode from Women’s Football Weekly: Arsenal thrash Chelsea to blow title race wide open

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.

Speaker 3 Hi, Pod fans. Max here.

Speaker 3 We've stuck in the Guardian Women's Football Weekly onto our feed, mainly because it covers an absolutely massive game in the title race, Arsenal's win over Chelsea at a packed Emirate Stadium.

Speaker 3 So listen to it, enjoy it, and subscribe to The Guardian Women's Football Weekly, wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Hello, I'm Faker Brothers, and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. The bullies are out as Arsenal dominate Chelsea in front of a record crowd at the Emirates.

Speaker 1 So, all level at the top of the WSL table, we have a title race on our hands and a relegation battle as Bristol City move out of the bottom spot at the expense of West Ham.

Speaker 1 We'll catch up on all the cup action, look ahead to the Champions League, reflect on that crazy Nations League night, discuss misogyny in football, plus we'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

Speaker 1 Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel. the only phone engineered by Google and official mobile phone of Arsenal Football Club, Liverpool Football Club and the England teams.

Speaker 1 Google Pixel is helping fans get closer to the game they love with access to fresh content and never before seen footage of their favourite players and teams.

Speaker 1 The new Pixel 8 and Pixel 8 Pro are fast and secure with the most advanced Pixel cameras yet. And Google AI powers amazing features for photos and video so you can get even closer to the game.

Speaker 1 Search Google Store to find out more.

Speaker 1 Well, what a panel we have here today. Sophie Downey, late super sub for the poorly Susie Rack.

Speaker 2 Hello, thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1 I'm loving your white hat, by the way. It's very Christmassy.
I think I say this on this pod every time Sophie's on.

Speaker 1 Sophie wears a different bit of headwear every time she's on the pod and every time she dazzles in it.

Speaker 2 Yes, it's my thing, the headwear.

Speaker 1 The headwear is wonderful. Emma Sanders, have you recovered from Sunday at the Emirates?

Speaker 4 I have. I actually had a week off before that, so I was really refreshed.
And like the rest of the entire women's football media after the whole Olympics situation earlier in the week.

Speaker 4 So yeah, feeling pretty refreshed, actually.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's a mate. You managed a week off when everyone else was having train, plane, and automobile dramas.
Wonderful.

Speaker 4 I know. Well, just a week off in general is just pretty, yeah, miraculous, really.
But yeah, it was my birthday. So make the most of it.

Speaker 1 Oh, happy birthday to you. You just wanted a Chris Power or song, didn't you? That's what it was.

Speaker 5 I'm ready. I'm always ready for a song, Kay.
Always ready for a song.

Speaker 1 Is this your first appearance of the season? I feel like we had the song. I feel like we had the song chat actually this season, but apparently it's the first one of the season.

Speaker 4 So is the first one of the season?

Speaker 1 Unbelievable. Where does the time go? Anyway, lovely to have you as always.

Speaker 1 There is nowhere else to begin but the Emirates. A record WSL crowd, not disappointed.
If you were a home fan, obviously.

Speaker 1 042 people inside the emirates were treated to a gunner's masterclass against chelsea it finished arsenal for chelsea one beth mead giving arsenal the perfect start firing in the opener after just eight minutes before the visitors responded against the runner-play five minutes later equalizing through johanna ritting canyard but jonas eiderwell's side exerted their dominance two more goals in quick succession before half-time through amanda illested and alessia russo who capped off the result from the penalty spot in the 74th minute sealing a resounding victory.

Speaker 1 It was quite the statement from the gunners, Sophie, wasn't it? They were more than worthy winners.

Speaker 2 Yeah they kind of outplayed Chelsea all over the pitch I think.

Speaker 2 I was just really taken by the intensity of their press and the energy in which they were going about their business and you know that was epitomized by the likes of Alessia Russo and Victoria Palova.

Speaker 2 Victoria Palova has come on leaps and bounds this season. She's one of the most press resistant players I've seen.

Speaker 2 The way that she can hold onto the ball, she can be kind of Kim Little-esque at times.

Speaker 2 She just, you know, sticks her body out and she gets her gravity low and she manages to retain that ball under severe pressure.

Speaker 2 And it allows Arsenal to really break away and break through the Chelsea ranks. I think Chelsea were not at their best.

Speaker 2 That's safe to say, but that takes nothing away from Arsenal's performance, who pretty much from the first whistle came out and had a job to do and out-muscled and outplayed them all over the pitch.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the goals were brilliant. They were great on the transition as well.
It shows what's coming together under Jonas Adevel at Arsenal these days.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and actually on Kim Little, Jonas Adeval did say that she was okay and her injury wasn't too bad. So fingers crossed for that as well.
You were on duty, as we said, Emma.

Speaker 1 What did you make of the whole game?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I completely agree with everything that Sophie said there. I thought Arsenal were brilliant.
And Jonas Adevel said afterwards it was their best performance of the season. And I 100% agree.

Speaker 4 Chelsea definitely were at their worst. We were having a bit of a discussion afterwards, actually, among some of the media.

Speaker 4 And I think sometimes when you look at the extremes of Chelsea's performances, when they play well, they are excellent. When they play bad, it does seem to go pretty wrong.

Speaker 4 So Arsenal got them on a good day, but take nothing away from Arsenal's performance. I just thought they were relentless, hard to deal with, and they've got so much quality all over the pitch.

Speaker 4 And we know they have the potential to put in performances like that. And I asked Jonas afterwards whether the performances like that sort of show that they are capable of winning the WSR.

Speaker 4 And he said it's all about consistency and doing that every week. And I couldn't agree more because that's now their level.
We know what they can do. It's about doing that every week now.

Speaker 4 And yeah, I think with the squad depth that they have this season, I'd be pretty worried if I was a Chelsea fan because that was, yeah, a really, really, really good performance.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I wouldn't say Emma Hayes is worried, but she was certainly annoyed because Chelsea's lead at the top of the table is now down to to goal difference.

Speaker 1 And she was not impressed with what she saw from her side, saying the better team won by a country mile. They bullied us.
They dominated in the duels. All phases of our play were poor.

Speaker 1 That's not us at our best today. That's probably us at our very worst.
And I mean, they very rarely have a day off like this, Chris. But this was possibly the worst stage for them to not turn up on.

Speaker 5 I know. You can imagine like sort of, you know, that many people.
And it feels like there's a lot of stake for Chelsea somehow because Emma Hayes having announced her departure.

Speaker 5 So, I guess that's the other thing. It's like, you know, there's a record-breaking crowd, it's potentially the last time she's going to be at the Emirates and all the rest of it.

Speaker 5 And then for them to, they just didn't, you know, for as many sort of platitudes as possible, they just weren't at the races, were they, really? Sam Kerr didn't really look fit.

Speaker 5 I think you can't underestimate how much they missed Millie Bright.

Speaker 5 I mean, I kind of agree with what Soph and Ems have just said there, but I also thought that Arsenal didn't really work that hard for four goals.

Speaker 5 You know, like, yes, they were impressive, but actually,

Speaker 5 you know, I think Chelsea kind of just, they, well, they just didn't turn up, did they? I also thought there was a lot of chaotic goalkeeping, which was quite fun.

Speaker 5 Like a couple of, you know, that, well, the goal for Chelsea, Zinsberger should have done better.

Speaker 5 And there were a couple of other things where you're like, wow, what's going on here for top goalkeepers? But yeah, I can imagine from Emma Hayes' perspective, she did look irritated.

Speaker 5 But I imagine that's, you know, that's what's going to push them on now is her irritation from that and figuring out what they need to do next time but that's not the game that you want to sort of you know go to pieces so i guess we'll see it's made it interesting at least I know it's made it much more fun hasn't it as a neutral I'm very excited and I'll tell you what Susie Rack is definitely ill because there's no way on earth she would have missed this podcast I'm sorry she's unwell obviously but obviously being a Spurs fan being on here with Susie Rack the day after that I'm I'm almost a little bit pleased that I haven't got her grinning face in front of me.

Speaker 1 Oh, bless her. She would have been waxing lyrical.
Get well soon, Susie.

Speaker 1 I know in your head, you're telling us how wonderful Arsenal are and how you told us all at the start of the season that you were going to win the title. You didn't.
You said Chelsea.

Speaker 1 But you did say that you were going to have a good season. Fingers crossed.
We'll talk the title race in a second. But, I mean,

Speaker 1 we need to talk about Lauren James, Sophie, because how lucky was she not to see Red? We saw the petulance that she has during the World Cup and it's crept into her game again.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it has and it is worrying, I think. I mean, that's a red card any day of the week.

Speaker 2 You can't be doing that and laying in one of those kind of stamps on like, you know, coming down on one of your, one of the opposition players. It's really frustrating, I think.

Speaker 2 And I think Emma Hayes will be really frustrated as well, because you have a player who's the most talented player in the country, you know, skill-wise, natural talent-wise, raw talent-wise.

Speaker 2 And yet she has these moments where she just flips or something just flips in her. And I think when it happens once, so at the World Cup, you kind of forgive it a little bit.

Speaker 2 But when it happens twice, then you're starting to see maybe a little pattern.

Speaker 2 And it's something that Emma Hayes and Serena Wiegman are going to have to deal with, I think, to try and wipe out of her game because she can't be doing that.

Speaker 2 Referees aren't going to miss it very often, you know. And

Speaker 2 yeah, as you say, it's petulance. And she I know she's still young, but she's old enough to kind of have learned this.

Speaker 2 She's played enough football, senior football in her career to know what not to do and how not to react. I know they were losing the game, but it's kind of sort of came out of nowhere again.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I think they're going to have to do some work with her to try and eradicate that side of her because it can't be happening regularly.

Speaker 5 That's not the price of genius?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 I just don't think think you can behave like that on a on a football pitch. And exactly as Sophie says, she's such an incredible talent.

Speaker 1 Don't let yourself down with moments of madness that do not need to be there. And I do think it is a tiny bit.
I don't think we can blame her age.

Speaker 1 She's got such a mature head on her shoulders in terms of her football brain. But this is so immature.
It's just, you know, it's a problem.

Speaker 2 I get the frustration. She was endlessly frustrated.
She wasn't getting into the game. Katie McCabe was marking her out of the game because she kept coming inside.

Speaker 2 So it allowed Katie to deal with her on her better side. So she wasn't having much joy at all.
So she was getting endlessly frustrated by it and they were losing. But that's not an excuse.

Speaker 2 Like, it's just not an excuse at all.

Speaker 1 No, I'm sure that's something that both her managers will be working with her on for definite. Let's go back to the title race, Emma.
Blown wide open.

Speaker 1 Who has the...

Speaker 4 Well, I mean, obviously Chelsea have the advantage, but mentally, who has the advantage yeah I think that's a really interesting one because the big elephant in the room is that Chelsea are obviously the only team in the Champions League so how much of a role is that going to play in the second half of the season we're yet to see I do think Chelsea will will progress into the knockout stages I don't think there's any question on that so their fixture schedule might become a problem in the later half and that obviously for me puts Arsenal right in the driving seat in terms of them being able to manage their squad a lot better.

Speaker 4 I do think they,

Speaker 4 I said in my pre-season predictions that Chelsea had the best squad in the league, but now having seen the new signings settle in at Arsenal, you know, the likes of Chloe Lacasse and Amanda Eleste, the kind of impact that they've had, actually, I'm starting to lean towards Arsenal squad depth.

Speaker 4 And I think that actually might be slightly better now than Chelsea's, which I haven't said for God knows how long. So that is interesting.

Speaker 4 So if they've got a better squad depth, they've got new signings and rotations and different ways of playing. They can literally switch their entire midfield now.

Speaker 4 And I don't really see a drop-off in quality. I think it's just a different style of play.

Speaker 4 You know, Jonas brought in Kim Little and Leo Volti back in for the game against Chelsea, but I'd have been more than happy to have seen, you know, Kara Cooney Cross and Frieda Marnum in there.

Speaker 4 So he's got options now.

Speaker 4 So in the second half of the season, when Chelsea are trying to manage their squad and they're managing their fixtures and Arsenal have got all of these different options and the amount of quality that he has that he can turn to on the bench, I think that's that's going to be really interesting.

Speaker 4 So, I still have Chelsea's favourites. I'm still going to back my preseason prediction.
But, my God, I think it's going to be even tighter than I thought it would be.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and they're going to have Manchester City knocking on the door as well.

Speaker 1 They beat Aston Villa by two goals to one on Saturday, coming from behind at the Joy Stadium, courtesy of a quick-fire brace from Lauren Hemp just past the hour mark.

Speaker 1 Villa had taken the lead through Danielle Turner's superb side-footed volley, but their resistance was eventually broken.

Speaker 5 They took their time to get back into it city uh but they were well worth it in the end uh their win chris yeah they look good actually and as emma was talking there i was thinking well you know manchester city are going to be there or thereabouts they have lost twice though and there was you know on the in the commentary on saturday there was like you know nobody's ever won the wsl having lost more than twice so i guess if they can go on a good run it'll be interesting to see and they you know there's a lot of quality in that team you've got two goals from lauren hemp that day You know, Bunny Shaw was a bit quieter than usual, but they still managed to put it away.

Speaker 5 So yeah, I think it was going to be interesting to see what they can do. That goal, though, from Dan Turner was wonderful.
Like a no-look hook from your central defender. Come on.
I love that.

Speaker 5 You know, I just, I like central defenders doing stuff like that as well. So that was great.
It's just, I felt a bit for them, to be honest, because they'd actually started quite well.

Speaker 5 And then they just, they just couldn't sort of maintain it. But City looked good.

Speaker 4 So I guess we'll see i think they'll push they'll push them both chelsea and arsenal and i can't make a prediction for who's going to win it i kind of feel a little bit yucky about both of them to be fair so i just have to keep quiet i do think manchester city have got one of the best most informed players in the league in lauren hem like the way that she is playing if she keeps playing in in that kind of way and we're now starting to see the the productivity from her we know that she's always created chances but she's now scoring goals and especially for england when she's playing in that central role, she's now adapting to you know different positions across that forward line.

Speaker 4 I think if City can continue to get the best out of her, then I think that they can stay right up there in that title race because I've not seen Lauren Hemp play this well for a long, long time.

Speaker 1 It's not just Lauren Hemp, though, is it, Sophie? It's Chloe Kelly as well with the dangerous deliveries into the box. She's another asset for Gareth Taylor's side.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we know how strong Manchester City are from the wider areas, and, you know, having Chloe Kelly able to deliver a ball like that is a really great asset.

Speaker 2 I do think Aston Villa did really well in that first half, sort of marshalling those wide areas and kind of restricting the balls in. And it was forcing Bonnie Shaw deeper.

Speaker 2 So it meant that she wasn't on the end of the crosses. And they kind of lost that in the second half.
I think City stepped up definitely. They were really like pressing in the midfield area.

Speaker 2 which meant there was no space for Villa to break out of kind of the press and Kenser Daley was really struggling. She wasn't having a moment on the ball.

Speaker 2 So I think they really fixed it in that second half. But yeah, those wide areas of city's bread and butter, as it were.
But if you can restrict them in those wide areas, then you can have some joy.

Speaker 2 And I think that's what Villa showed in the first half. They just couldn't maintain it for that 90-minute period.

Speaker 1 No, they struggled, didn't they, Emma? They're 10th now, two points clear of that relegation place.

Speaker 1 And they'll be frustrated exactly with what Sophie said, but also that Rachel Daly was pretty anonymous in this one as well.

Speaker 4 Yeah, really, really anonymous.

Speaker 4 I remember watching quite a few moments in the first half in particular where Rachel Daly was getting caught offside because she wasn't getting the pass quick enough and she was getting really frustrated with her teammates turning around and saying I need it quicker I need it quicker and it didn't really change it was sort of you know it was the same situation the whole way through the 90 minutes but yeah a disappointing result for Villa because I was looking at the stats before this season.

Speaker 4 So they've had the lead in five matches this season and thrown it away four times.

Speaker 4 I say thrown it away, maybe that's a bit harsh because you look at the opposition that they're coming up against in a lot of those games, you know, the likes of Arsenal, Manchester United.

Speaker 4 But still, to throw away a lead in four out of five matches that you've been in front is something that they need to address.

Speaker 4 And I think you might come on to this, Vade, but I think I was looking at some of the questions that were coming in for the podcast earlier, and one of them was about Vidda sort of giving away those leads.

Speaker 4 And I looked through the starting 11, and only three of the starting 11 are under the age of 30. Now, that for me is a bit of a concern because I think Vida is a bit of an aging team now.

Speaker 4 And I'd be looking at that January transfer window and thinking, okay, how can we lower our average age? We saw Liverpool do this in the summer.

Speaker 4 They went out and got younger players to just reduce that average age because you want that experience in the squad for sure.

Speaker 4 But some of their key players are, you know, they're knocking on a bit now. And you think, I just think you need a bit of legs to come off of the bench.

Speaker 4 And that's where Vida are really struggling at the moment because they haven't got the depth of, you know, teams around them.

Speaker 1 And yeah, that for me could become a bit of an issue towards the end of the season yeah that uh question you allude to emma is from sam who said villa have lost seven out of nine matches in the wsl this season four of which were from winning positions what do you think is the reason behind that is it tactics fitness mentality etc what do you think sophie

Speaker 2 Maybe a bit of all of the above.

Speaker 2 I think like they won't really worry too much about the ones against the top teams. I know they wanted to be closer because they pushed them really well last season.

Speaker 2 They were kind of the surprise package.

Speaker 2 But it will be those losses against Everton and Tottenham that will really, really be worrying Carla Ward, I think, and her side, because those games, they have to be winning.

Speaker 2 They don't have an excuse not to win them. I think they have a couple of players who are clearly out of form.

Speaker 2 I don't think, say, I don't want to name her shame, but Rachel Coursey is not having a good season.

Speaker 2 you know and she's the experienced head and she's the captain and when when that's not going well then it sort of drives something through the team.

Speaker 2 I think not having Kenza Darley for the first part, she's still obviously getting back to full fitness. So she's not quite there yet.
She's not quite as sharp as she was as we saw last season.

Speaker 2 So, as Emma said, those balls to Rachel Daly aren't coming off. quite as quickly as before.
So I think that's an issue as well. So I do think it will build into the second half of the year.

Speaker 2 I would imagine we'll see a better Aston Villa in that respect, in a forward respect. But yeah, there are some worrying signs, I think, at the moment.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there are possibly at Tottenham as well, Chris, because we're off to Brisbane Road next. And Manchester United kept pace with the top three thanks to a big 4-0 victory over Tottenham.

Speaker 1 Summer signing Melvin Mallard was the star of the show again, scoring twice and assisting Ella Toon for United second, while Haley Ladd put the gloss on the result with a late fourth.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's just not a good week to be a Spurs fan, Chris. I'm really sorry.

Speaker 5 It's been quite tough.

Speaker 5 I mean, you know, 11 with no reply in two games that's hard um we actually started quite well and looked quite defensively organized and then once the goals started rolling in and i think you know

Speaker 5 it was great to see beth england back on the pitch and she got i think she got sort of about 55 or 60 minutes and looked sharp you know she could have scored very early on and then i think it would have been a slightly different game i think that the problem that we've got is that our we have our three starting midfielders are all injured and then grace Clinton couldn't play, obviously, because Manchester United is her parent club.

Speaker 5 And so, the central midfielders were decent, but they're not our starters. And I think when you if you're playing against Manchester United like that, you've got to kind of

Speaker 5 have your be full strength. So, you know, I know if

Speaker 5 Bethany could have scored early, ifs and buts, and all the rest of it, but you know, the stats were good.

Speaker 5 And I know Mark Skinner was complaining about the stats afterwards, but I quite enjoyed that even more, to be fair.

Speaker 5 I think we had nine shots to their 10, and six of ours um were on target they had five on target and scored four so actually if you look at it from that perspective you know it's all right i mean i suppose my slight concern is is that if you had robert after the game he was just like this is the way that we're playing and i think he's got a way that he wants to play and he's not he's adaptable but actually i think if you believe in how you play then you have to continue to play like that because actually you want you want the team to buy into it and if at the first sign of stress you go oh actually we're going to revert to this other thing i think you know if we've got a bit of a longer plan i don't mind to be fair we're happily in mid mid table obviously it's a tough game coming up on saturday although we've got to think about wednesday as well so you know playing arsenal twice in a week off the back of the two games we are i think you know we've got to give it a go I think that's the thing.

Speaker 5 It's like we've got to give it a go. And it might be another kind of challenging couple of games.

Speaker 5 I think our identity and what we're trying to build is really important. And I think this team could be really, really good.

Speaker 5 I think there's a couple of signings in the works as well, by all accounts, if you believe what you read. I think there's some interesting things afoot.

Speaker 5 And I'm not just being an optimist because I love my football team. I think there's some nice football there.
There's some really good players. I think we're unlucky with the

Speaker 5 central midfield. sort of issues.
And to Emma's point, it's like the team has got a lot younger as well. And I think that matters.

Speaker 5 And in fact, I feel for Villa a little bit because I feel like they must feel how we felt last season, having had a decent season the season before and sort of people thinking, oh, they're going to push on and then just having an absolute nightmare.

Speaker 5 And I think we started well. And this is a little blip.
And I think in the new year, we're going to fly again. Watch this space.

Speaker 1 Okay, we will do. And we'll come back to you at the end of the season and see how it went.

Speaker 1 I have to say, I do find it really interesting that both the women's and the men's teams, it almost feels feels as if the managers have been given free license to take the shackles off and and implement the style of play that they want to regardless of of results to kind of you know the phrase you used chris form an identity and a style of play i think that's really fascinating yeah i think that's the other thing is like there's a total way that we've that's been since the like 1960s and i think that there's just a move now to bring both teams back into that.

Speaker 5 So I think that that is an interesting thing, absolutely.

Speaker 1 Yeah, as Chris mentioned, positive that Bethany England is back following hip surgery and she could be key for Tottenham going forward.

Speaker 1 But let's focus on United, Sophie, because it was another really important three points for Mark Skinner's side.

Speaker 1 And Ella Toon said afterwards, it wasn't always pretty, but they have to keep grinding out these kind of wins if they want to stay in contention for Champions League football.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Like it was

Speaker 2 a show of experience and patience, I think, from Manchester United.

Speaker 2 You could tell that they are, in the story of both teams, you could tell that they are the more developed side in terms of progress on that journey.

Speaker 2 So I think they abided their time in that first half. They allowed Totten to kind of come out and kind of press them and get their energy out for that first 20 minutes.
And then they just waited.

Speaker 2 And once they got that first goal, they really moved through the levels, I think, in the second half. Eletoon's goal, by the way, is fantastic.

Speaker 2 The way it came straight from like Meletizia from the back to Melvine, my lad, and then to to Eletoon to Dinko of the Keeper. I think that's one to watch, certainly.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I think they just showed their experience. They're not always going to be at their very, very best, but they need to keep grinding out these results to keep in touch with the top.

Speaker 2 So it's what they're doing, especially away from home, I think, is always adding in the travel down to London as well. adding all of those aspects.

Speaker 2 You just need to get the results at the end of the day. I do think with the identity piece, like, and I think you're seeing it with other teams around the league as well.
So like a Leicester,

Speaker 2 i really understand trying to get the long-term plan and trying to get an identity but i think you also have to be sensible with it as well and against some opponents you need to become i don't know more mature to learn that you can't always play the way that you're going to play and to try and avoid some heavy defeats you sometimes have to have moment it doesn't mean the whole 90 minutes you have to back up but maybe for a 10 minute period after you've conceded a goal you bank up a little bit just regather yourself do something like i don't know the goalkeeper goes down or you you know something to just be able to regather your thoughts and and try and take control of the game and i think that comes with the experience as well you know that that sort of in-game intelligence where i don't know you make a foul or you your goalkeeper goes down for an injury and your your manager can bring them in that develops over time but i think it is an important part of of the development of size where you see it with chelsea and you know manchester united all the time they do those kind of things because they have that intelligence in games to try and disrupt the play and try and disrupt the flow when they feel it's going against them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just one last one on United. And apologies if I get the name wrong.
I think it's Hallis. But Halis asked on social media, why is United's form so much in flux?

Speaker 1 Social media keeps blaming the manager, but I'm not sure if that's the only issue going on. What do you think, Emma?

Speaker 4 Yeah, this is a really intriguing one. I've been following this for a while because I do think Mark Skinner is heavily criticised for anything that goes wrong at United.

Speaker 4 I think some of it is perhaps warranted and a lot of it is probably unwarranted, actually.

Speaker 4 I think, yes, I have questioned maybe some of his substitutions or some of his tactics so far in the season, but I don't think there's a manager that I haven't done that for so far this season.

Speaker 4 So he hasn't been perfect for sure, but I don't think he's been anywhere near as bad as some of the fan base have suggested.

Speaker 4 I think he's obviously spoken a lot about the new signings that are coming in, the time that they need to gel. I think that is one factor.

Speaker 4 I think another factor is that, you know, they're coming up against when you talk about those head-to-head matches and those kind of title challenges matches, you know, they're coming against three squads who are far more further down the line than they are in Arsenal, Manchester City, and Chelsea.

Speaker 4 That obviously becomes a factor.

Speaker 4 And then I also just think the nature of the league now is that other teams, you know, outside of that top four are now becoming, as Soph says, a bit more mature in their performances, Leicester being a good example, especially in the first half of the season.

Speaker 4 I'm sure we'll come on to this.

Speaker 4 They probably haven't done it in the last couple of weeks, but in that first half of the season, they were one of those teams who had kind of found a way to play against the bigger teams, if you like.

Speaker 4 Liverpool has certainly become a little bit more mature in the way that they play as well.

Speaker 4 And we've seen in the past that Brighton, they're very up and down, but they can also produce those performances.

Speaker 4 So I know it's cliché to say, and I know everyone gets a little bit bored of this, but the competition just is better now.

Speaker 4 So I do think you're not going to have those performances every week, right? You're knocking teams off the park. Manchester United have certainly got the quality, and they've certainly got the team.

Speaker 4 I'm still less convinced about the squad as a whole, in terms of being able to challenge for that title, but you know, they've got certainly a starting 11 that can beat any team in the league on their day.

Speaker 4 It's just about fine-tuning it for me. And I do think, you know, Mark Skinner is learning just as much as the players are.

Speaker 4 And, you know, when I look at season by season, I do think Manchester United have improved each season. I would like to see a little bit more improvement this season.
I think that is the big question.

Speaker 4 But I still think it's early days to be judging a manager on, you know, nine games into the season where they're, what are they, four points off the top. I think it's pretty harsh criticism, actually.

Speaker 1 It's social media.

Speaker 1 Is there anything in that wild west that is reasonable? I don't think so. That's it for part one.
In part two, we'll check in with the rest of the WSL action.

Speaker 1 Talk Champions League League Cup and FA Cup and last week's Nations League chaos.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Three more WSL fixtures for us to wrap up.
To Prenton Park next, where Liverpool and Bristol City played out a one-all draw.

Speaker 1 City-led when Abby Harrison's scuff shot was turned in by Amelie Threstrup from close range, but Matt Beard's side drew level just six minutes later as Sophie Roman Haugue flicked home a near post-header.

Speaker 1 A big point to move Bristol City off the bottom of the table, Sophie, but Liverpool are going to be really frustrated.

Speaker 1 They could only come away with the draw against a side they feel, I'm sure, that they should be beating.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, I mean, everyone probably, I think almost everyone picked Bristol to go down straight back down at the end of the season to the championship.

Speaker 2 So they will be frustrated for a fifth-placed team who have had the start to the season like they have i think matt beard will be really annoyed giving that kind of two points away at printon park because that's kind of where you need to be picking up those points in this league i think bristol have shown that they are a different kind of side to what anyone expected they've come out with a lot of metal they're developing they're learning very very quickly in game they've got a very good young manager i have to say in lauren smith and i think she's drilled them so well for such a young team to get them basically up to scratch within a you know nine games of the season is pretty good and they've got themselves into a real platform now where they can build on into the new year yet you know Leicester have got West Ham they've got Chelsea at next weekend they could well be thinking yes that one against Chelsea is kind of a free hit but West Ham are not in the good form I'm sure we'll come on to that so they could be going into the new year not on the bottom of the table and for a team having points on the board who are in a relegation battle that's absolutely key um i don't know really what went wrong with liverpool they just kind of weren't at the races I think Matt Beard was really upset with the way they used the ball he was not happy with that so I kind of think they just sort of fell away from the game but take nothing away from Bristol because they are performing they are showing they have the character to do well in this league Yep, they certainly are.

Speaker 1 Liverpool sit fifth in the table, four points outside of the Champions League places. They make the trip to Manchester United on Sunday.
Big game there. Well, Bristol City, as you say, hosts Chelsea.

Speaker 1 I'm sure they'll see it as a free hit, but I do think that, you know, if I was Bristol City listening to any women's football pod, of course they only listen to ours, obviously, then I would be sitting there thinking, why is everyone writing us off?

Speaker 1 That would give me fuel 100%.

Speaker 1 Let's talk West Ham, as Sophie mentioned.

Speaker 1 It was a huge result down the bottom with Everton continuing their resurgence with a 1-0 win in Chigwell, sending West Ham rock bottom, substitute Karen Homegard's second half header.

Speaker 1 All that separated the sides in what was a real scrappy encounter in East London.

Speaker 1 And it was a family affair as well because Homeguard pounced at the far post and nod in her twin sister Sarah's delivery. I love that.
It was a massive win though for injury ravaged Everton Emma.

Speaker 1 Now seven points clear of that dropped place and they're on a four-match unbeaten away run in the WSL which is their best for more than 11 years.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's mad actually because just a few weeks ago Everton were in big trouble actually, and people were sort of criticising. I think Brian Sorrison was starting to come under a little pressure.

Speaker 4 I think I came on this podcast, actually, and said that people weren't really sort of giving him enough of a kick at the bottom, really, because, yeah, they'd picked up some bad results.

Speaker 4 And now, you know, they've obviously won those three WSL games and they're back right up there in terms of the mid-table sort of battle, if you like. So, yeah.

Speaker 4 a really really big result for Everton especially when you look at the injuries that they've had and I think this is why obviously Brian, you know, I'm sort of half joking, but he was never under any real pressure because of the injuries that they've had.

Speaker 4 They've actually managed the situation really well.

Speaker 4 I think Tony Dugman was playing as a kind of a right win back on the weekend, which kind of shows just how much they're struggling in terms of the players that they have fit.

Speaker 5 So a massive result for them,

Speaker 4 a very concerning one for West Ham, obviously. I think, you know, Rhiannon Skinner, she's in a really difficult position because she obviously came in late in the summer.

Speaker 4 The squad was was nowhere near the level it should be. I think there's been issues at West Ham for a while now.
They've not really invested in the way that I'd like to see them invest.

Speaker 4 And I don't think enough people are talking about that.

Speaker 4 I think the club need to really look into their women's team and start showing them the type of investment and type of interest really that they deserve because they've lost some big players over the last couple of seasons and they've got a good manager in Rhan Skinner.

Speaker 4 You know, Chris will know the work that she did at Tottenham before obviously that, you know, that really disappointing season where it just you know nothing worked for her but actually the foundations that she put in place and the way that she built the club she's proven she's she's a good coach and I think she just needs the resources at West Ham to do what she needs to do and my concern is that she might not get that and they're in a difficult position now and I struggle to see how they're going to get out of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we've said this on the pod before, haven't we? It's a club record, fifth consecutive top-flight defeat for the Hammers as well.

Speaker 1 They've lost seven of their nine games this season, looking pretty grim for Rhiannon Skinner's side. Right, the final game of the weekend for us to cover anyway.
Brighton 2, Leicester 2.

Speaker 1 Late drama in Crawley. Brighton fighting back from two goals down to earn a point.

Speaker 1 Elizabeth Turland, as well, moving top of the WSL's scoring charts with her 82nd and 88th minute goals, cancelling out Lena Peterman's goal of the season contender and Yutta Rantala's strike just 18 seconds into the second half.

Speaker 1 It means that Leicester are now winless in their last seven in the WSL, Chris.

Speaker 1 And Willie Kirk spoke afterwards about how they have a fear and it's appearing in different costumes in different games is the way he described it.

Speaker 1 Is it a lack of belief for them that they do belong and that they have the quality to pick up victories in this division?

Speaker 1 Because they were looking quite confident at the start of the season, I thought.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I couldn't really work that out.

Speaker 5 I thought those comments were interesting, actually, because I think it is one of those things where you thought, you know, Leicester were sort of, you know, felt lucky to stay up last season or whatever.

Speaker 5 And then maybe that's what they're thinking now: is like, oh, we, should we actually really be here? Maybe there's something about the fact that their men's team have been relegated.

Speaker 5 I don't know if there's something that's kind of club-wide there. But it was interesting that he was talking about the psychologist as well and saying, actually, they need to do some work on that.

Speaker 5 So I think that's good that they've got those resources to do that work because I think if you see a lead slip again and again, actually, there has to be something in the psychology of that. Right.

Speaker 5 So, I mean, I think it's good that he's addressing it and that they're doing something. But, you know, like they're a good side.
I like watching them play football, to be fair.

Speaker 5 I thought, you know, they're sort of progressive and positive. But yeah, I think if we go 2-0 up like that and then just throw it away, and that's not the first time, you do have to think about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, as we know, a big game next weekend. We've already mentioned it.
They've got West Ham. Brighton, by the way, sit ninth in the table, four points above the relegation place.

Speaker 1 And they make the trip to take on Aston Villa next weekend.

Speaker 1 Let's talk Chelsea again because they don't have very much time to feel sorry for themselves after that humbling defeat at the Emirates because they welcome Hacken to Stamford Bridge on Thursday night.

Speaker 1 The Swedes sit top of Group D on six points after wins over Paris FC and Real Madrid in their opening two group games. Emma Hayes' side are just behind on four points.

Speaker 1 And you suspect that the visitors might feel the wrath of the blues, Sophie. Maybe they're going to want to respond after Sunday's defeat.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's the worst time probably to face Chelsea after they've suffered a defeat like that because they're going to want to put things right very quickly.

Speaker 2 And, you know, these are two really important games for them against Hacken. They've got them at home on Thursday and then away next week.

Speaker 2 And, you know, if they get six points out of that, then they're pretty much qualified, I would say, for the next round of the competition. So Hacken have shown a lot.

Speaker 2 They're probably surprised in the first few games of the Champions League, the fact that they're sitting top in the table. But I think Chelsea will be on a mission, I would say.

Speaker 2 I think Emma Hayes will definitely light a fire in them to turn it on at Stanford Bridge, especially on Thursday and try and finish out the year really positively.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's important that they do that, isn't it? Full set of match day three fixtures look like this, by the way.

Speaker 1 Wednesday in Group A sees Rosengarde play Barcelona and Benfica against Eintrach Frankfurt, while in Group B, St. Poulton play Slavia Prague and Leon face Bran.

Speaker 1 And then on Thursday, Group C's matches see Bayern Munich face Ajax and PSG against Roma while Group D sees Paris FC Real Madrid and as we say Chelsea against Hacken.

Speaker 1 Now we've got domestic midweek action to look forward to as well with the latest batch of League Cup games. I love this time of year because we just get cup games interspersed everywhere.

Speaker 1 It's very exciting. It's a Merseyside and a North London Derby amongst the ties as well.
Everton hosts Liverpool. Arsenal welcomes Tottenham to Meadow Park as Chris mentioned already.

Speaker 1 You've already said how much you're looking forward to that one.

Speaker 1 Very good luck. Grimace, grimace.
Group A sees Aston Villa play Durham, Blackburn against Sunderland.

Speaker 1 Group B is Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United, Leicester and Group D, Arsenal, Tottenham, Bristol City, Reading.

Speaker 1 Into the FA Cup we go and while we lost some fixtures because of the inclement weather and waterlogged pitches there were still plenty of eye-catching results.

Speaker 1 The biggest victory of the third round came for third tier Burnley who thrashed fifth tier Coondon Court by 11 goals to nil.

Speaker 1 Championship sides of course entered the competition at this stage and all of those who played on Sunday won with leaders Charlton beating Billericky Town by six goals to nil and London City Lionesses seeing off AFC Bournemouth 6-0.

Speaker 1 Southampton Women's FC triumphed 2-1 at local rivals Portsmouth. Fourth tier Moneyfields though became the lowest ranked team to reach the fourth round with a 1-0 home win over Millwall.

Speaker 1 Absolutely massive for them and they'll receive £39,000 in prize money which could be really transformative.

Speaker 1 They could be upstaged by the way by my fifth tier Luton Town if they beat Keensham Town on the 17th of December because Sunday's tie fell foul to the conditions.

Speaker 1 There are still three spots in the fourth round draw to be decided after the postponements.

Speaker 1 WSL sides enter the competition in the next round which will be played on the weekend of the 13th and 14th of January. So the draw takes place this morning after we've recorded this.

Speaker 1 So that's Tuesday. We'll keep an eye out for those fixtures.
Pick up some of the plum ties next week as well.

Speaker 1 Nag asked on social media, if this pod is recorded before the draw, it is Nag, what would be your dream draw? And she has highlighted Luton versus Arsenal, Corrubbers versus Rack.

Speaker 1 What would be your dream draw, Emma Sanders?

Speaker 4 Well, purely from a work perspective, absolutely nothing in London. Just no London ties, please.
That would be great, which obviously is impossible to happen.

Speaker 4 But no, no big ones. I'd like something local.
And actually, you mentioned Burnley before in the roundup.

Speaker 4 And this is a club I've sort of had a bit of an eye on because I interviewed Chairman Alan Pace a few seasons ago around the women's team and sort of the work that Burnley were doing to improve their women's team.

Speaker 4 And I can only see improvements in that department. So I'd be quite interested to see.

Speaker 4 from a bit of a local perspective to me i'm based up in manchester so a home tie for burnley against like an everton or a liverpool could be quite an interesting tie i'd be quite intrigued to see how they got on against against the wsl side so that would be mine and then again you know i've got some family who live sort of near nottingham way so i'd love to see like a forest derby match up in the fourth round that would be quite good as well Yeah, that would be fun, wouldn't it?

Speaker 1 I'll tell you what wasn't fun. I mean, it was fun, but it wasn't fun if you had to do the maths.

Speaker 1 And it wasn't fun when you watched the Netherlands score late on to absolutely deflate everybody at Hamden Park because we have to touch upon last week's Nations League finale ending in heartbreak for the Lionesses and Team GB as they missed out on a spot at the Olympics.

Speaker 1 In case you missed it, England thumped Scotland 6-0 in that final group match but it was not enough to top the table because the Netherlands scored two injury time goals against Belgium to deny them in what was an incredibly dramatic finish.

Speaker 1 I was actually hosting an event and I was updating everybody on the Lioness's score and then I also had an eye on the Luton Arsenal score and I went up for my final bit and England looked like they'd done it because the Netherlands were only winning by two goals to nil and Lucy Bronze had just scored that injury time sixth goal for the Lionesses and Luton Town were 3-2 up against Arsenal and I was like, yay, this is amazing.

Speaker 1 And then it all went horribly wrong, didn't it?

Speaker 5 And you jigged it.

Speaker 1 I know, I reckon. I think so.
It's all down to me. It's my fault.

Speaker 1 A week on, though. How do we reflect, Sophie, on what this means for Serena Wiegman's side?

Speaker 1 We've had a question from Nav Deep saying, is England not qualifying for the Olympics on behalf of Team GB such a bad thing?

Speaker 1 Surely the best preparation for Euro 2025 is a summer off from playing tournament football.

Speaker 2 I've actually been thinking this for a while, way before the last round of games, because I think when you have five basically five years of back-to-back tournament football, you have no break, right?

Speaker 2 And we can tell that these players are tired.

Speaker 2 We can tell that the Nations League has been really exciting, but a lot of teams across Europe are struggling, the top teams across Europe, but they haven't been in the best of form.

Speaker 2 I think that's because of the summer and not having a break after the World Cup.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I think for England, if you're thinking about England and their Euro 2025 hopes, the fact that they're not playing next summer, they've got the whole summer off, they can go to Ibiza or wherever they want to go and chill out for a bit and get a proper break.

Speaker 2 I think that's really really good for England.

Speaker 2 And it also allows them to start to bring, you know, they've got a February window now where they can try younger players or bring in new players, give them a go because those, that February window won't count for anything.

Speaker 2 So they're sort of free hit fixtures, as it were. So I think from an England point of view, actually, it's good, but you still.

Speaker 2 I think Serena Begman put it really well in her post-match.

Speaker 2 You know, you don't want to, the scheduling is a problem, but you don't want to be missing major tournaments because of the scheduling problem.

Speaker 2 At the moment, that's the way they have to do it because no one is doing anything about the scheduling. Well, they don't have to do it.

Speaker 2 But you know, that's a way if you need a break, you can't qualify for a tournament. So it's frustrating for them.
And obviously, the players in Serena would have wanted to be in Paris 2024.

Speaker 2 It's a big tournament in women's football. You want to be there if you consider yourself one of the best teams in the world.

Speaker 2 But at the same time, I guess from our point of view, when you look back at it and look, take an outside look at it, it's not that bad of a thing if you're thinking that the Euros is probably more important in England's, England's, not TMGB's, but England's future and ambitions.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a really tough one, isn't it? Because

Speaker 1 a lot of people absolutely love the love the Olympics, particularly in women's football.

Speaker 1 And you can see how devastated many of those players were because many of those players are not going to be available come the 2028 Olympics, are they?

Speaker 1 So that's it for them and their potential to win a medal.

Speaker 1 Look, we're going to focus on this because new findings from FIFA and FIFA Pro yesterday showed that one in five players at the World Cup received discriminatory, abusive or threatening messaging.

Speaker 1 It comes after we took a trip back in time to the Jurassic era this week with the thoughts of a nameless former male manager and player causing a furore on social media.

Speaker 1 Chelsea manager Emma Hayes responded indirectly by saying women are routinely used to dealing with systemic misogyny and bullying in sport. which unfortunately we are.

Speaker 1 Listen, I have personally refused to give any comments on air because I don't want to give it any airtime. I don't want to add any fuel to it.
And I don't think it requires a response.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about it more generally, shall we, Chris? Because the whole thing is just utterly infuriating.

Speaker 5 I think that's an understatement there, Faye.

Speaker 5 I think the worrying thing was, and I agree with you, because as soon as I saw, you know, as you say, the nameless, I don't think it's worth kind of giving him any, as you say, any more oxygen, I thought it was a spoof.

Speaker 5 And then I realised he must be flogging something. So it's a grift, basically, and kind of jumping onto the culture wars bandwagon.

Speaker 5 However, the worrying thing is, is there is an undercurrent of almost an incel culture in the shadows of men's football. And it does awaken a certain type of fan.

Speaker 5 And I think if you sort of paste that onto exactly what you've just talked about, about what women who play or work in football have to endure on a daily basis, and what Emma Hayes said about sort of, you know, 50 years of being told that we don't belong

Speaker 5 and layer onto that all the cultural stuff of what's for boys and what's for girls in inverted commas with no good reason, apart from patriarchy and exertions of power.

Speaker 5 And, you know, men's football having 20% of their fans being women is doomed as progress. And again, there's no good reason for that.
And this is all the stuff that we have to break.

Speaker 5 And the gender binary of what's, you know, that that's what scares me is like, this is for women and this is for men. There's no reason for it.

Speaker 5 And in all of this, there was very little talk about the men that work in women's football, which I think is you want to make sure that you've got the right people doing the right things and regardless of their gender.

Speaker 5 And I think that the challenging thing is, is that women continue to be marginalized, denigrated for working in men's football in so many roles.

Speaker 5 There are so many women up and down the country doing stuff. And it's hard.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 Because even when you're trying to kind of get on with your daily business, there's going to be somebody who thinks, oh, well, she's only there because they're trying to tick a box, or, you know, they've done this thing here because they're trying to do that.

Speaker 5 And, you know, Alex Scott making her point at the end of that game was crucial.

Speaker 5 But so were all the women reporting on men's games up and down the country, all the women working in men's clubs in the governing bodies.

Speaker 5 You know, football is one space and one industry, and it's okay to share that. Just sort of saying, you know, women stay in one box, et cetera.

Speaker 5 That was the thing that really I think was more dangerous and plays into loads of other stuff.

Speaker 5 And I think, you know, it's been a big slog for women to after whether it's around the game being banned for so long, all the rest of it, it's a slog to find our place.

Speaker 5 And things were moving in the right direction. And now we're back on this culture wars stuff where somehow we're trying to kind of separate us again.
I think that's worrying.

Speaker 5 And I think that's the thing we need to be addressing. Obviously, not looking at this individual.
The thing that worried me the most was seeing all the chat around it.

Speaker 5 And as much as I want to say, oh, well, it's a minority, it's still a minority that has a voice and a space, sadly, in the game.

Speaker 4 Rant over.

Speaker 1 No, it's not a rant. I've spent 25 years dealing with this.
And I have to say, it's made me...

Speaker 1 I feel like I've kind of gone into myself again a little bit this week. And then I've got really angry.
And then I've got really annoyed with myself for getting angry.

Speaker 1 And then I've looked at the positives because there are plenty of those as well, which are some of the amazing people working in football and men that have reached out actually to check are you okay just want to say you know how important you being in this industry is and sending some really lovely comments that actually just kept me going a little bit because i don't want to give any fuel to this and i don't want to i don't want to react to it either i don't want it to affect me because that's what people want and you know i do wonder how much of it is bots you know i do have a question mark over some of the comments that that come on and

Speaker 1 I don't tend to give a lot of credence to comments that I see on social media because some people just like stoking trouble. So I just don't read stuff.

Speaker 1 But some of the stuff I've read has just made me really sad and sick.

Speaker 1 But I think you've put it absolutely right, Chris. And I really just hope we don't have to keep talking about it because it's utterly exhausting.

Speaker 1 And there are some incredible women doing incredible things in football.

Speaker 1 And, you know, even saying about sharing football, why should we have to share it it's it's it's it's not it doesn't belong to someone in the first place so anyway that's my two penneth on it and i think we'll end that conversation there if it's okay um em it was really lovely to see you as always i shall see you soon yeah lovely to see you and uh well done everyone for for keeping flying that flag for the amazing women in football absolutely Sophie, delightful.

Speaker 1 Take care. I'm going to buy you a hat for Christmas, a new one.
What color would you like?

Speaker 2 Blue. Always blue.
Blue.

Speaker 1 Always blue. Okay.
Chris Pauros, you are an inspiration and it was lovely to speak to you as always.

Speaker 4 Nice to see you all.

Speaker 1 We'll be back next week to round up one final weekend of WSL Action before we head into the winter break, including the North London Derby and Manchester United against Liverpool.

Speaker 1 As ever, a reminder, you can email us via women's football weekly at theguardian.com or tweet us your questions.

Speaker 1 And remember to subscribe to The Guardian's Moving the Goalpost newsletter so it appears right in your inbox. The Guardian Women's Football Weekly is produced by Lucy Oliver.

Speaker 1 Music composition was by Laura Iredale. Our executive producer is Sal Ahmad.

Speaker 1 Women's Football Weekly is supported by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google and official mobile phone of Arsenal Football Club, Liverpool Football Club and the England teams.

Speaker 1 Engineered by Google, the Pixel 8 and Pixel 8 Pro are fast and secure with the most advanced pixel cameras yet.

Speaker 1 And Google AI powers amazing features for photos and video, so you can get even closer to the game. Search Google's store to find out more.

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.