Everton leap clear of the relegation zone and Spurs slump – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

More fuel to the anti-Aussie agenda.

Tottenham lose a lead again.

West Ham resurrected under the Moyes sire after a barrage in the first half of the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

Everton lays siege to Newcastle to match their mentality out of the relegation zone to make light of their 10-point deduction.

Here in Trippia has a game to beget.

Newcastle literally running out of legs.

We'll preview what's to come in the Premier League at the weekend, take stock of the managerial comings and goings in the EFL and discuss the new TV deal.

What does it mean for the armchair watching and match-going fan?

All of that and your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

A panel today.

Good morning, Nada Manuera.

Good morning, Robin.

Good morning, Paul McKinnis.

Good morning, Robin.

And good morning, Sanny Roger Vagula.

Hello, and hello from a salubious surroundings of Salford University's radio studio.

He says as a fire alarm goes off.

This is great, great start for the year.

So we've just had a fire alarm before we started recording.

And now, I mean, are we starting, do we need to get worried now, do we think?

I mean, I can't see any flames but i suppose that's the last thing you see

the guardian used to give people a hundred quid to be a fire marshal and guess was guess who was at the front of the queue for that little incentive me

so

i i not only would be the first person out of the build well ready to get out of the building escorting people out i also know what to do in the event of a fire alarm so if this continues just come back to me and everybody will be fine i promise you that that's standard practice is it dial up paul mckinnis on on zoom and find out how to survive.

Give me a picture.

I think I'm okay.

Give me a Paul.

Find a connection.

Excellent.

Okay, let's get straight to it then to the Premier League.

Everton 3, Newcastle United, 0 at Goodison Park.

Sanny, you were at this game, despite some of the conspiracy theories that are going around social media.

How was it?

It was everything you'd kind of put as a cliche at Goodison Park under the lights with all the fans there.

And it was exactly that.

And, you know, before the game, a lot of the the previewers around how Everton have a really bad home record.

And Newcastle only have five points on the road.

So what would we expect?

But as you would expect, Everton kind of flew out of the traps.

And

I suppose it's one of those where

there are no plastic Everton fans, right?

Every fan who's there,

they are concentrating for the whole game.

There's no influencers like filming themselves walking upstairs like at Old Trafford or whatever.

And so all that energy is all thrown onto the pitch and it's whether the players can kind of use that and use it positively.

And in the past they haven't and last night they did and by the time they got to 3-0 and you've got Betto scoring after a 29

pass move, it's kind of like the dominoes have all fallen there.

It was just one of those nights where everything kind of came together.

And kind of Everton,

they quite like not having the ball, right?

They're quite, they're much better away from home.

They like having this,

being on the countering team.

And that's kind of how they were.

But they had more shots than Newcastle.

They looked like they were going to score.

And although all the goals came in the second half, they were really good value for a 3-0 win.

Nadem, it's just a second home win of the season for Everton.

A 10-point deduction.

They're now out of the relegation zone.

It seems to me that under any other manager almost, you wouldn't back them so heavily to beat that sort of adversity.

Yeah,

that's very, very true.

And I think for me, looking at Everton, this season's been so interesting because at the start, I think they lost three or four games to begin with, and that's their worst start in 30-something years.

And as you look at them now, you see them as a solid team.

I think they've won three times in London so far as well this season.

Three away wins for Everton.

Who had that down as a thing?

In fact, it might be four.

And then when you see the way that they play now, you know what to expect.

And obviously, the beto goal yesterday with the 29 passes was great.

I don't think it's necessarily the standard for Everton, but what I liked.

was the fact that say obviously Kieran Trippi is someone that I know so I don't like to see him making mistakes but look at the way they pounced upon it you know they're a team that are more on the front foot now if they were the way that some people perceive them to be they'd be in the really low block just hoping to be able to sweep something up and start a counter-attack from 70 yards away from the goal but instead they're showing pressure they're trying to make teams uncomfortable and as a consequence they can sort of pounce on some of those mistakes and then just change the sort of tone of the game and i

I'm at a point where like, I think they're just a good side, you know, they are just a good side.

And it, I know that shouldn't shouldn't be something that feels or sounds controversial, but the more you watch them, the more you realise one of their issues this season has been the ability to, well, the fact that they couldn't take chances.

I think in the first game of the season at home, they lost 1-0 to Fulham.

And I thought, oh, it's going to be a tough season for Everton.

Then I looked at the game and looked at the stats and they battered Fulham, but they just didn't score.

You look at the game a couple of weeks ago against Manchester United where they lost 3-0.

I think they should have been scoring in that game.

They should have been up at halftime.

But then, you know, obviously it starts with one of the best goals we've probably ever seen and then a couple of mistakes here and there.

But they're a good side.

They seem like they're tough to beat and they do have something going forward.

So yeah, this Everton side, they're decent and obviously the 10-point deduction does matter.

But they seem to be a side that's confident, know what they're doing, and very, very happy doing it as well.

I think that's a really interesting point, actually, because...

We were all assuming another season of struggle, not just because of the 10-point deduction, but I think it's possibly, Paul, like a hangover from Frank Lampard, not just him, even the managers before that just seemed to be a cycle of ongoing struggle.

But now it seems like they've got a manager who knows what he's doing.

I think I heard on Five Live, if they hadn't had the 10-point deduction, they'd be 10th at this stage.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you can certainly see the imprint of Sean Dyce team in, you know, that there is familiarity from the way that...

Burnie used to play and not just because two of the key players in Mitt Neil and Tarkovsky are part of that setup.

But

I think one thing, I was very impressed with Jared Branthwaite last night.

And I do feel that one of the things that has changed for Everton this season is they've got a reliable centre-half pairing.

And

Pickford's in very good form at the minute as well.

And I think that having that sort of base means that maybe sometimes, psychologically, sometimes the team are going to think, well, we don't have to, we can take a risk and press a bit higher or engage more because we can be a little bit more confident that if that doesn't work, then we're going going to have that resolution behind us to stop the ball from going in the back of the net.

I mean, you know, I think this season, what we're seeing is there's quite a few decent teams, but actually,

thanks to that ever-expanding kind of TV revenue, squads are getting stronger year after year, coaches are getting stronger year after year, and that depth is just going further down the division.

But Everton, clearly, an example of that right now.

Well, depth is something that Newcastle don't have at the moment.

Jim says, should Newcastle buy more Croatian so they don't get quite quite as tired as they did at Goodison?

Yes, so Newcastle played the same outfield 10 for the fourth game in a row, and I think they probably would have played the 11, of course, if Nick Pope had been available.

On the Monday nightclub on Five Live on Monday, Dan Byrne was said after the last international break, he went away, but he said he felt like he'd played a whole season because of the Champions League football.

He says it's really starting to take its toll.

And I guess, sadly, it came to pass.

It seemed very similar to that away game against Bournemouth, where they just allowed shot after shot and they just couldn't get a grip of the game at all.

Eddie Howe after the match kind of reflected similar to Dan Byrne in that

they are definitely going through this kind of run at the moment.

And, you know, I put it to him, you know, the next game against Spurs and an AC Meeland, these games are coming thick and fast.

So he's very much in this kind of...

feeling of it's all kind of happening.

I mean, Newcastle weren't, you know, 3-0 on the one hand, it's slightly flattering to Everton in that, you know, Newcastle still had chances.

You know, I mentioned that Everton don't particularly want to have the ball, and therefore, when Newcastle did have the ball and the quality they've got, you know, the moves are pretty crisp.

They were able to get the ball up pretty quickly.

But most of the time, the defence was kind of equal to it.

And yeah, you've got like Miley,

they've got literal children on the bench, haven't they now?

And like, they've got no other option but to do that.

And yeah, when you've got Trippier making those two kind of of mistakes, kind of dispossessed for the first two goals,

maybe it's one where if he wasn't having to draw and all those extra reserves and, you know, put a shoulder, put an arm round like the likes of Miley's

Miley's shoulder, so bring him all in.

Maybe these mistakes kind of creep in.

And the thing is, yeah, they've not really got anything else.

This is it for them.

And, you know, add to that the goalkeeper situation.

You know, Eddie Howard talked about how Martin Dubravko was a bit bruised after the game because he certainly went through it

as the replacement for Pope.

And there were a few kind of robust challenges on him, perhaps.

And overall, they're kind of going through the ringer and we're not even quite in the festive period yet.

So it's only going to get worse.

What was the read on Jamal Lassell's in the end?

Did you see that, Sonny?

Was he a serious injury or not?

Well, no, it didn't sound that way from what Eddie Howe said after the game.

It should be okay.

Nothing too major.

I think there was also a couple of other players were just minor tweaks.

So I don't think there's anything too bad there.

They couldn't do with losing another defender though.

Yeah, yeah.

He says with, you know, there'll be breaking news, he's out for the rest of the season or something.

I know I've said that.

Probably doesn't quite warrant a voice note, but I mean, Nader,

it's almost if we

say they look tired, footballers aren't allowed to say they're tired, are they?

That's a kind of thing that's really taboo.

Yeah,

it is that way, to be honest.

Then realistically, yeah, they are tired.

They're probably out in the field cold and they don't like the fact that they're losing.

You know, these are things that you just don't really want to be

addressing as such.

And it's interesting as well, listening to what you were saying about Dan Byrne and the Champions League.

You know, some people say, oh, in the championship, you play four or six games and so on.

But it's those, it's the way you travel around Europe, going to these different places, the amount of time you sort of spend away.

Like when that game's finished at, you know, 10 o'clock, all of a sudden you're just, you're in Milan.

You need to get back to where you need to get to.

So and immediately start preparing for the next game.

Whereas the opposition, more often than not, you know, they've had a nice, relaxing Wednesday off before their game on the Saturday.

So it does, it does make a difference.

And I think to a certain extent, they do look tired, but then I thought they looked great on the weekend.

So I think that's just the general ebb and flow of, say, Premier League football in my perspective, and the fact that each team you play against is different and offers you something that's a bit different.

And the intensity that Everton had yesterday is very different to that that United had on the weekend against them.

But, you know, what's next up?

Is it Spurs away?

So it's hardly, so it's hardly going to be,

you know, a nice, easy transition.

Because one thing we know about Spurs, I'm sure we'll get into them, is they start well.

They start quickly.

So yeah, maybe this

game is going to be maybe a really good one just because, you know, Newcastle want to respond, Spurs want a response, and everybody's tired, but we shall see.

I've got some breaking news, by the way.

I've checked my press conference notes from last night.

Eddie Howe said Jamal LaSalle has a dead leg.

So he should be okay.

Should be all right.

No voice note needed.

Well, well, depends, depends on the severity of the body.

It can be bad.

I've had like dead legs, I'm sure he'll be fine.

And Jamal's like a tough guy and whatever.

But if you've also, have you ever had a dead leg where you like fall down the stairs type dead leg?

That's not fun.

Those ones aren't fun.

All of a sudden, you just have like lose all sense in one of your legs and you're just tumbling down.

So hopefully, he's not got one of those because that could be quite tricky when you're trying to play against Hungiman Son at the weekend.

Is this you like hobbling out of bed after

the night after a big game?

Because it's not common place i think i would write to say to fall down the stairs that's not something that happens no no no no no no i think i think anyone that's had one of those dead legs before they'll they'll know the pain because you you think you're fine then the next minute you've got no control as you're just falling over which is you know it's it's not really the most fun thing in the world but i'm sure he'll be giving it a go i'm sure he'll be all right but i'm sure it's also hurting that little bit more today because of the fact that they just got beaten so heavily the day before that's good insight from nadam as well what you see

exactly exactly, brilliant.

Because you know, when we get team news and it's like brackets, ankle, brackets, and then it's brackets dead leg.

For us, it's like, oh, come on, really?

So,

everyone listening, listeners, it can be very, very painful, it seems.

It might rule him out.

We'll have to wait and see.

So, yeah, Spurs away on Sunday for Newcastle and then at home to Milan on Wednesday on the last round of matches in the Champions League.

So, they're seventh at the moment, Newcastle United.

Astavilla and Spurs better than they were last season.

United turning a corner, it seems, although we say that every week.

I mean, is Champions League football for Newcastle United, Paul, not, you know, it's not a given, is it?

And it's this is a real testing period for them.

I think one of the one further aspect of the tiredness that I just sort of wanted to drop in was this is going to be psychological tiredness as well, because they're going to be exposed to this, not only the intensity of the schedule, but the challenges that they face against their opponents, you know, playing in the Champions League, they've got to be on it all the time.

And I think with the injuries as well,

when you're losing your first-choice players and playing second or maybe third-choice players, you know, those players have got to be concentrating the entire time in order to be able to kind of do the job.

So I think there's probably something of that that's draining.

Eddie Howe is always

on a knife edge, I think, at this club because the expectations are so high.

I think

they've run the club very well since taking over the current management.

but you know at the end of last year it was sort of quite clear that if they didn't get into the champions league it would have been a disappointment for the club which clearly it was something of a miracle for them to do it so i i think there'll be there will there will be pressure around that and i i wouldn't rule that newcastle being able to do it because i think when they when they're when they're on a run they look you know solid and efficient and they've got you know high quality players and the injuries will heal over time.

But there's going to be, what,

six other teams competing for those places, at least for the sort of the bottom, the last, the last remaining place.

I think at the minute you would say that Arsenal City and Liverpool

are likely to take the first three.

So that, again, narrows the opportunity

and raises the pressure.

Just to round this off, Sean said, Jim Beglin said on the commentary, Calvert shoe-in

after his big miss.

And apparently, the, yeah, yeah.

And apparently, the commentator didn't laugh.

And Um, Sean, oh, good.

Sean said, Should he laughed?

And I'm like, Yes.

The answer is, yes, he definitely should have laughed.

That's poor form.

No matter what how rubbish your co-commentator's joke is, you must laugh.

That's part of the part of the pack.

That's part of the training that we get, you know.

And

it's got to be done, Nathan.

It doesn't matter how bad the joke is.

Of course, of course, of course.

You need people to believe that you're like each other all the time.

So, yeah, that's hilarious.

It's the best joke I've ever heard.

Yes.

Like in a press conference where it just seems that journalists can laugh at pretty much anything at that stage.

But anyway, we'll end part one there.

In part two, we'll talk about West Ham's win over Spurs.

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Welcome back to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Spurs won West Ham United 2.

Spurs have lost four of their last five, picked up just one point.

But Sally, I think the standout stat from this game, apparently, Spurs are the first team in Premier League history to take the lead in five games in a row and fail to win.

Now, that seems like something of a pattern here.

Yeah, it's quite amazing, isn't it?

I mean, we're always with these Premier League stats, you wonder Jonathan Wilson will probably know the answer, whether, you know, there was a team in the 30s that did it in the Football League.

But

I guess, you know,

we've built Ange up, haven't we?

The media.

We've done all of that.

And we love this gung-ho style.

And now that the chickens are coming home to roost, aren't they?

And it's not quite coming together because, you know, so easily they could just shut up shop or really just think we don't need to make any mistakes at the back.

We don't need to be faffing around.

And that's continually what's been happening here.

I guess.

I don't know.

You know, look at the other end.

Is this where the likes of, say, having a Harry Kane to have got a second somewhere and has put the game to bed without too much bother would have would have fixed things.

Perhaps that's one way of looking at it.

But yeah, it is quite an amazing stat.

But we like entertaining football.

This is good, isn't it?

You know, let's not have boring.

Let's just keep having this craziness.

Albeit that would lead to Spurs' relegation.

So I don't know.

I don't know about that.

Nadum, I think it's probably important to put that run into context because obviously they took the lead against City, but you know, it was kind of backs to the wall.

Whereas this one, it's like, yeah, Sally said it.

They had opportunities to put the game to bed before West Ham could come back.

Yeah, that is,

that is true.

And do you know what I do love the way that they start when they're in good form?

The Man City game, as you mentioned, they were getting killed.

But

when they're in free-flowing sort of like energy, free-flowing form, the crowd are into it at their stadium.

It feels like it's a lot.

You're thinking, oh, how many is it going to be?

Oh, here's a chance.

Here's another chance.

That's a big moment.

Like, Romero, he's back.

You know, he scored a header.

Everything's fantastic.

This is going to be great.

And then it's just, it's just not.

And I wouldn't necessarily

be that person that would say, I'd like them to change their style during the game when they have a lead, because there's so many different moments where, you know, you are still supposed to attack and you've still got players who are better in attack than they are in defense.

But moments do matter.

And the Boeing goal,

I mean,

it's a shot that's not probably not very good that gets a double deflection and then drops to someone one-on-one.

How do you defend that differently?

You know, you could tell you could try and stop the shot, but still there's an element of chaos that comes with that.

But then it's another little mistake for the

second West Ham goal.

And from there, West Ham, their style of play, probably suited having the ability to sit in, but then no, you've got like a Bowen up top who can carry the ball, a kudos who can carry the ball.

Paketaya thought was great.

I think shout out to Emerson as well.

Emerson and Tufar thought they were brilliant yesterday.

Fabianski, obviously, coming in.

I think that there are certain times where matchups do matter.

And as the game was turning the way that it was, West Ham had a style of play which Spurs were were going to find very tough to break down.

And then

Spurs can't overcommit.

There'll be other teams who go down to play against Spurs, and they won't have that sort of forward ability that West Ham have, which will always ask the question and make your team feel a little bit uncomfortable when you're trying to attack them.

But I'm still a believer in Spurs as such.

I think they'll score a ton of goals.

And listen, I've been wrong probably

seven out of 10 times with teams that I do like, but

I'm still very much a believer in them because I enjoy watching them and I see the goals potentials that they have.

And defensively, I don't think they're that bad, but at times, matchups matter.

And I thought West Ham were great yesterday.

They were closer to their style of play, which brings them success.

And

it's good that they made the adjustments at halftime.

Otherwise, I think that game could have been out of sight.

Paul, on a scale of Johnny Lou to Max Rushton, where's your Ange Postacoglu

sort of

random?

Yeah, I mean,

I did think about this.

Listen, I'm massively into him for the man he is.

That I can't deny.

I love listening to him talk about people, about the way football is.

And I agree with 99% of what he says.

And I think he's a breath of fresh air.

And it's great to have him in the game.

As a coach,

I love watching the football.

I listen to his appraisal of what happened last night.

And he talks about the moments, not about the fatigue or whatnot.

And I said, you know, that's A, the right message to be sending out.

And B, could well be true.

But

this is an ugly sort of journalistic formulation, but I do think there's something about with football teams, like you're trying to create warriors and you're trying to create artists.

And it's about getting the balance between those two things.

And I think Spurs are artists before they're warriors, and West Ham are warriors before they're artists.

And I think on this game, that decided it.

The way that West Ham attacked, off the ball attacked, pressed, pressured Spurs in the second half made them vulnerable.

And then both physically and psychologically, I think they could start seeing that something was coming again and there was this risk that is happening.

You know, with bad luck with the goal, the first goal that really kind of put the skids underneath them.

And I think that lack of fortitude,

call it Spursy,

remains.

And whether that's something that...

that Ange can eradicate with his philosophy, which accentuates, and really I'm going on here, but accentuates that artistic side.

You know, I think that's going to be the crunch

because he's raised expectations pretty quickly.

And there's also the fact that he's unlucky enough to have been given the manager of the month award three times, which makes anybody who wants to have a pop at him and a crack at him have a bit of ammo that he's been over-inflated beyond his value.

I personally think, as I say,

personally, he's a great addition as a man, as a coach, I think he is too.

But there's going to be hard questions, there's going to be hard times.

And I'm not entirely sure that I would back Spurs to take that fourth place.

They're in that fourth place mix, but I'm not sure that they're the team that I would say would be the ones to do it at the end of the day.

Nadum, Joel wants to know, producer Joel, were you a warrior or artist?

Or is that too simplistic?

Well, lots of shades to Nadum and Neuhar.

Well,

well, I always wanted to believe I was an artist, but nobody bought my work.

So maybe I'm somebody who's just doing pictures.

But yeah,

the thing is the worry first.

I think as you look at those two teams yesterday, it's not to say that I couldn't have played for both, but I'd lean more towards a David Moy style of play, which is, I don't know if that's neither a compliment or an insult to myself, but that's what I'd lean towards.

It sort of suits the way I see the game more.

And I like the playing out from the back because I also love teams that had the ability to go out and score goals.

So that's the Spur side of things.

But then with West Ham, as I say, they've got both.

They're sneaking like quite attacking.

When you've got a ward prowler, a Bowen, a Pakita, a kudos.

That's very impressive.

So I would lean.

I would lean that way.

But can I just make this point about Posta Cognitive, if you don't mind?

I um, of course, so I like his style of play.

I like how firm he is.

I like the fact that he's decided that this is how his team's going to play, and he wants him to play winning football.

I think that's something a lot of people just forget about managers.

They have a style of play, but it's whatever they believe is the best way to win a game of football.

And if you have possession, for example, you can't really be attacked.

So, some managers like to defend by having the ball.

I also think some people talk about Posta Coglu like he's just started management.

Like, I thought I had to look to see how old he was.

And he's like, he's 60 in two years' time.

He's not brand new, but still sometimes everyone is giving, well, not everyone, but a lot of people who are considerably younger than him are trying to give him advice.

Hey, Ange, no, no, you need to try this.

No, no, no, this isn't right.

Ange, no, no, no.

You're going to have to change.

He's 58 years of age and he's been in management in some shape or form for a long time.

Do you think he cares what like some guy who's like 42, 43, he's got to say about like what management is like?

Especially when some of these people, as we've seen, have historically been very bad at management themselves when they did it for a little period of time.

But not that.

I was making a mental note before the show that I wanted to say this because I think you can say something very similar about David Moyes.

You know,

I'm a big David Moyes fan, always have been.

I think he is a good man.

And, but, you know, his football can sometimes be more pragmatic than expansive.

And it does, you know, fans can fall on the side of the divide with regards to him.

But, you know, I think Ned was absolutely right.

For a side that primarily does not want to concede away from home, they've got good technicians in that side.

And

they play good passing football to work their way around the pitch

when they've got possession in the final third.

They can be as intricate and as deadly as anybody on their day.

And I just think that I remember, I'm old enough to remember that Everton team.

And it was a long time in its maturation.

Every year it got slightly better, but for most of those years,

there wasn't much of the glory-glory football about it, but it was you know effective.

But by the end, they were both winning games and playing fantastic football week in, week out.

And I think the journey that West Hammer is on right now, I think it's comparable.

And I think you're seeing the second iteration of this, of his team now, where

he's moved on, he's got these, you know, he's being able to take these great players, great technical players, and

incorporate them into the system and the idea that he has.

I mean, watching Kudas closing down like his runner, like 50 yard, you know, 100 metre sprint to 50 metre sprint to get back and

close down the attacker.

The strength of Paqueto on the ball in the middle of the pitch, you know, these are all real Moisian sort of values that he would absolutely demand.

And they make these players better, you know, when they've got that side to their game as well as the skillful side, they're forced to be reckoned with.

And San even more impressively because they've played so much football, six more games than Spurs already.

And they have eight games in 24 days in December.

Obviously, Spurs have had high-profile injuries.

But, I mean, West Ham keep going and going.

They do.

And goals as well are coming from everywhere.

I mean, Thomas Suchek's having a really good season as well.

And kind of like...

kind of a renaissance for him.

I suppose it's getting the best out of the players that aren't even the ones that are getting all the headlines like you Ward Prouse and

Jared Bowen.

So, overall, it's a very positive showing.

And I guess it kind of shows that where

our own bias as football fans, maybe West Ham are kind of like what's here they're in.

Actually, you know, you look at the lineup as Nadem's kind of elucidated, and actually, they're great, they're really good, you know.

Maybe we shouldn't be so surprised.

And you mentioned the first goal for West Ham, Nademe, and the second one was pretty silly as well.

Yeah,

it's not great when you continue in those types of goals because, you know, like the first one's deflections, oh, I can't believe it.

The next one's like, oh my gosh, what are we doing?

And even to have the misfortune of the initial shot, I think from Ward Prowse come off the post exactly back to where he is.

You know, that could have spun off to the side, could have done anything.

But instead,

there it was.

You know, think of all those years Ward Prowse worked on his technique, his free kicks.

And now here's the opportunity.

Can you tap this ball in with nobody around you from two yards out?

Oh, it's the dream all that hard that is prep that's pressure though as well yeah huge pressure when nobody's there i've never felt pressure like it but

to um to just say continue on something i said before because i only did half my research like david moise is two years older than poshtikogli and people are happy that david can do his own thing but are really unhappy about and deciding to play his particular way but yeah i think west ham they're a good team they are a very they are a good team and they're managing this sort of european journey perhaps a bit better than some others, but maybe it's because they have more players available.

They have the ability to rotate at certain parts at certain moments, like whether it's the centre-back pairings or whether, you know, you're seeing like Kerr play right back and

I think other players in different positions.

And they're, they're, they're good.

They've got their identity.

They're comfortable with it.

And they've got, say, someone up top like Jared Bowen, I think who's fourth or fifth top scorer in the Premier League right now.

Things you never thought you'd see, but still here we are.

Well, a couple of points on that.

First of all, I think it's the Ange thing, the sort of patronising sort of advice thing, is because he's new to our league TM.

That's possibly it.

And also Jared Bowen now cannot leave West Ham.

He has got twins with

celebrity fan,

West Ham fan Danny Dyer's daughter.

He cannot leave now.

That's it.

This is his

bigger than a contract extension.

It's the twin.

It's the twins with Danny Dyer's girl.

He will not allow that to happen, fully.

That's another thing about this, the team, that he is willingly signed up to be the talisman of the team.

When he signed that contract extension, he was, I am going to stay here the rest of my career, brackets, because if I didn't, my father-in-law would kill me.

But, like,

but you know,

he is sort of accepting the idea that being a legend at West Ham would be a really good thing.

And, like, you know, for Deccan Rice, that wasn't quite enough.

But, you know, to create the idea for other players in your squad that that would be enough, I think, is another sign that you're building something,

an idea that people can take seriously.

Well, that'll do for part two.

In part three, we'll preview more Premier League fixtures.

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Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome back to the Guardian Football Weekly.

So the Premier League marches on.

Oh, it's a 12.30 kickoff for Jürgen Klopf again.

Crystal Palace against Liverpool.

Naden, first of all, we wanted to know your feelings of 12.30 kickoffs as a player.

Did you enjoy them or did you, I mean, is it true you have to force that pasta down at 7am or whatever it is?

You see, I was more of a porridge guy anyway.

So for me, it's like, socially, it's perfectly acceptable to be forcing that down at like 9 in the morning.

A morning kickoff is...

The perspective of it is very much dependent on when the last game was.

And I think for Klopp and others, I can see the concern that you do have because it's like like preparation time.

It's say, were you home?

Were you away in the last game?

Are people fully recovered?

And it does, you know, it does make a difference.

And can I mention something mildly controversial?

Mildly, is this okay?

Please.

We need more of this.

In that interview where Klopp was very angry, like,

I've got to say, from my perspective, some of the jokes that do get let off about people who are involved in the game, it's an easy joke for you to make because you don't feel it.

Like what he's saying, he's saying it for what Klopp would say about those kickoffs.

He's saying it for a reason.

He's not just saying it for the sake of it.

And he knows all the impact that it's having upon his players, his staff.

Like this might be people staying away from their families and so on.

So to drop in as a joke to the exact person that doesn't find it funny.

I liked how he pushed back because he could have been, oh, you know, we're on, we're on Amazon.

Everyone's getting paid this.

This is a stakeholder.

Ha ha ha.

I was like, nah, it's a little reminder that, no, this is actually work.

And I take my work seriously.

So I didn't mind it.

But to go back to 1230 kickoffs, they're great as long as you win.

Because when you win, it's like you've got added time off.

All the time you lose at the front end, you gain at the back end.

But then when you lose, and now you've got more time to stew over it, and you watch everyone else at three o'clock go and sort of leapfrog you in the league.

Then it's like, I hate 12.30 kickoffs.

So yeah, you know, that's the sensible approach to early kickoffs in my mind.

I do think, though, Paul, like the sort of thing with Klopp, we discussed it on yesterday's pod.

It probably

Nathan's given a good sort of player's perspective there, but it probably isn't very helpful that he can be poked like that

pretty easily.

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

I mean, he never had that.

I mean, I'm sure that was part, it's always been part of the makeup, but he was more the avuncular, jocular

caricature, wasn't he?

And then now people start to see this, you know, gets a little bit more snappy, that kind of perceives being patronised quite a lot by questioners, things like that.

Listen, if I was put in that situation, I would crumble into dust within 30 minutes.

It's a high-pressure environment.

And,

you know, they're all going to have moments like this.

I think Liverpool, for me, they're back.

And, you know, if he's being snarly and

looks like somebody you don't want to mess with, I'm not sure that's going to harm their

attitude or their prospects right now.

As for Palace, Sanny, they were truly dreadful on Wednesday.

Do we give them any hope in this game?

And they've got Manchester City after this one, too.

No, in short.

I think

not scoring enough goals.

I mean, Odson Edward, you take him out, he's got six.

And without that, they've basically got nobody who can score.

You're looking at like the centre half, Andreessen, who's got two.

It's really hard.

And I know...

On the pod, we talked about Roy Hodgson and being, you know, I think Nurudine called him a bit of a brick top sort of gangster, kind of that vibe he's got at the moment, and he's also been a bit bristly.

And the Palace fans aren't particularly happy.

I mean, I suppose

what more can they expect?

There are so many clubs here who are kind of struggling to get a player,

you know, that real quality player you need to kind of change things around.

And Palace are just going to have to kind of take the medicine.

I suppose this 12-30 kickoff, I mean, as it happens, by the way, I'm partly a small small cog in the machine of why he's been ground down jurgen klop because uh due to various rights reasons i did a press conference with jurgen klop where i was the only person in the room but it still had to be a press conference it was just me and jurgen klop still sat in this press conference can i ask where were you sat were you sat right at the back no i sat on the front row to the right so the cam op had a nice angle um but so so therefore He took the time in quite some detail to explain all the intricacies around this early kickoff.

and so perhaps after he's done that a few times I'm partly to blame for it

but yeah it is a genuine thing and I suppose as Nadam's saying you know those Palace players have had some time to stew on it will be really kind of wanting to put the last result behind them and therefore Liverpool could be got at and you know we we do kind of forget they are all human and the psychological aspect is such a big one.

If those Palace fans can come in and somehow get themselves up for a 12.30 kickoff when they've had an early start as well, then they can make it really uncomfortable for Liverpool and they're going to have to because the players they've got at the moment on the pitch, you know, Ayu, Eberici, Ezeki certainly on the day can do brilliant things, but you just need to get them having their day because otherwise they're kind of struggling.

This is something about Palace that just because it strikes me from the perspective of my day job, which is sports news, right?

And I do a lot of stuff writing about the Premier League and kind of regulators, spin-off league competition, all that sort of stuff.

And Steve Parrish of Crystal Palace is a very prominent figure in the Premier League right now.

He's somebody who has a lot of opinions on the future of the game, doesn't like the regulator, is getting involved in European club associations, criticising the way that the game is run in Europe.

Not that Palace are ever playing in Europe, by the way, but he does have opinions on that.

But I do note that without Roy Hodgson, Crystal Palace have always looked, their position in the Premier League in recent years has looked quite precarious.

That Roy has been, you know, it's been key to build, keeping the club in the division, building that platform that allows Steve Parrish to kind of talk about, you know, here I am, you know, here's our club, a big club in the Premier League, and we our needs need to be taken care of as well.

And I wonder about what, you know, I think if

the pressure continues to build on Roy, because obviously the fans have sort of a bit like, okay, well, this is, this is, you know, we felt it was enough the first time.

And I think they've had a little bit kind of sort of struggle with buying it in.

Personally, I think you're very lucky to have him, but that's by the by.

That's what the fans think.

If he has to replace him again, it's a big, big decision.

And he's got it wrong before with De Boer most notoriously.

But,

you know, I think in the end, Patrick Vieira didn't really work out either.

Doesn't spend a lot of money on players.

So there's not really that option either.

I think I'm interested to see what happens with Palace this season just because it matters not just on the pitch, but off it as well.

Yeah,

I think that's all very fair.

And after the last game against Bournemouth, the game finished with booze.

And when you're in that spot, you've got something to think about because what are they booing?

Are they booing that particular goal that they conceded to Kiefer Moore?

Are they booing the performance?

Are they booing the season?

Are they booing the manager?

Are they booing their players?

There's so many different things.

But for them, the players, they've got to go out there and try and sort of rectify that.

But you're doing it against the Liverpool side who are kind of feeling themselves at this moment in time.

So it's one of those games which I feel

maybe go either way.

Like maybe it's a

historic day for Palace as they really go and take it to Liverpool and get a result after being in a poor runner form.

Or maybe they capitulate and the booze get louder and more people

start saying them.

But, you know, one thing's for sure anyway, for as much as that feels like a big game, I think this is probably a bigger, bigger game for another manager in the Premier League this weekend.

And we'll see how that goes for him.

Yeah.

No, we we didn't actually mention it yesterday, but Liverpool have a player who's literally playing with his arse hanging out.

He's taking the piss.

I mean,

this is the confidence that is flowing through Liverpool at the moment.

Luton town against Manchester City.

This could be an interesting one.

Oh, don't, Robin.

Stop it.

Stop it.

Come on, Nadum.

Give it to me.

Do you know?

Without a win.

Oh, don't, don't.

Luton, a tricky place to go.

Have you been in those dressing rooms?

You can see the headline.

You can see it happening.

And especially, like, you saw Liverpool have to pull out a late equalizer against them.

You saw Arsenal have to pull out a late winner against them.

I thought Liverpool should have been out of sight against them, to be honest.

And it's a good reaction for them to come back in.

I didn't think Arsenal played anywhere near their best, but then

Luton offered something in that next game against them.

And those players,

most of them are playing in the Premier League for the first time.

So their confidence is growing more and more the more they realise they can compete.

You know, the data's there.

They've got the minutes in the belt.

and they know the value of a big result.

They nearly had it against Liverpool.

They nearly had it against Arsenal.

And here's a city side, which, you know, in fairness, if they were playing a city side that played midweek against Villa, who were more depleted, even though Villa were magnificent in that game, then there's probably more belief and sort of maybe a great expectation they can get something from there.

But it is set up to be a disaster.

It is going to be a style of football which is going to test those city players out.

But

he's still, you know, it's still city.

At some point, they're going to sort of do something for like 90 minutes instead of just 45.

But we'll see how Luton go, like, what they're going to be like if they're a goal down, if they're two goals down and they can't really get possession of the ball.

Or what happens if they're 1-0-up, 2-0-up?

And City are trying to probe, but they've still got the abilities to go and hit on the counter.

I think it's an annoyingly fantastic game of football from my perspective because I'd prefer it if it was a really, really obvious one.

But I don't think that's the position we're in right now.

And that's why I like timing matters matters because a season is a season but these particular moments are really exciting because it's always a reaction of what came before and what came before is more encouraging for luton but less encouraging for man city yeah there seems to be a lot of chaotic games going on this weekend everton against chelsea and sanny this could be another tricky one for chelsea who seem to still be very very unpredictable yeah and partly that is because they've got so many young players quite a few specifically 22 years old so not got a massive amount of experience maybe in the premier Premier League.

But, you know, again, I put this to Sean Dice, and he said, Well, you know, they're internationals still, aren't they?

But yeah, Chelsea's very much in that kind of transitional period at the moment.

And the nature at any level when you've got young players is they're not consistent.

And we keep seeing that all the time.

And Caden Jackson can score that emphatic hat-trick on the one hand, if you want to call it that the other week, or just, you know, a series of tap-ins.

But then, you know,

he can't reproduce that every week because he's still kind of learning the game and he's he's very raw.

It's funny, it's funny actually when they say raw.

And I'm sure Nadum can give us a bit more on this because it's almost like what, what, he can run, like, but he physically can play.

Like, he's got some technique.

You know, we kind of always big it up.

Like, they're so raw.

Like, he's only just mastered staying on side and running in a straight line.

Don't give him the ball.

Make him go like a second or a third touch.

But yeah, Everton potentially could get out of them.

Yeah,

raw, raw.

To be honest, it depends who is From a positive standpoint, someone can say it's raw because it's huge potential.

Sometimes it's a bit of a dog whistle to say someone's no good.

I think it just depends on whoever's saying it.

But if we're going to go for the positive element, then you can see they show flashes of like finesse.

But as you get older, you've played the game for long enough, you've got enough reps into where it should look cleaner.

And you understand the importance of the, say, that right first touch, the perfect timing of the run.

But until they realise the importance of certain things or they've had enough reps to get out of them, then yeah, they will play the the game as if, you know, it's just a simple game of football where all you do is just run around and kick things.

But, you know, there's a lot more nuance to it.

And I think some of that rawness goes with time.

Wolves against Nossi and Forrest.

This is now turning out to be quite an interesting game, Paul, because it's been reported that Steve Cooper has one game to save his job in that sort of cinematic style that we have, which I feel was really unhelpful because it puts so much pressure on the team and on him, of course.

And it's just like, it just builds the game up to be way more than it really should be, I guess.

Absolutely.

I mean, it is

a sort of derby of sorts.

But you also mainly raise the question: you know, what's the bar for making this the game that saves your job?

Is it winning?

If you scrape over the line with a

scuffed six-yard effort, is that enough?

Does it have to be

exciting football that tears them apart, which you won't do against Wolves, however hard you try?

You know, you get the feeling with Forrest that Cooper's on a high.

This has been written some time ago and

in the manner of sort of Premier League clubs, a bit like Gary O'Neill at Bournemouth, that the owners kind of thing actually were aiming for something a bit further than what this English coach can do for us.

And it's only been the fans.

And the fact that he actually did an incredibly good job last season that's kept him in the job.

I think, you know,

if I I was Steve Cooper, I'd be a little bit chastened, I think, because it's like, what can you really do?

And it's not as if I don't think that he's had much control over the direction of this sort of transfer fire hose that continues to dump half a new dozen new players on the squad.

But clearly, they're not playing well.

I think it was Jiao Paolina versus Ibrahima Sangare,

and there was one conclusive winner in that game.

And Sangare came in, a lot of expectation, big signing, the sort of guy who was supposed to be able to kind of be up for any fight that suggests that there's something not right in in the in the in the heads of the team and is that because they know the writings on the wall as well forest have enough individual talent in that squad that you know they could get something out of this game i don't think that's impossible i think i think the wolves are you know wolves are they're consistent enough but they're not you know that that uh that you you wouldn't you always sort of bank on them for the win and so you know there could there could be a point out of this easily but will that be enough?

Would a would a one-nil away win be enough?

I think ultimately Cooper's time at the city ground is going to come to an end.

We'll find out

because we'll find out where the owner has put his pass and it's gone.

I think the measure of enough, as

Paul was just saying there, we almost perceive these ultimatums to be like checkpoints in video games, in like car racing games.

If you make it to this point, you get an extra 40 seconds.

Well, if if if you're

if your job is being discussed for you being on the way out then you don't become the right person because you've won this game like it doesn't how much time does how much time does it buy you like maybe that's the case if it's the last game of the season you have to stay up so if you do win this game and you stay up then yes you keep the job but realistically it goes it doesn't that doesn't add up to me and

again

So Hecking Bottom loses his job recently off the back of a 5-0 defeat.

And then you looked at them losing 5-0 away to Fulham and Forest have no away record two wins since they got promoted ton of defeats and that stuff sort of matters because those two 5-0 defeats like one was Burnley beating Sheffield United the other one's Fulham like Fulham are a good side they're not really a five-star side that should be able to just walk straight through you which is exactly what they did and for a I don't know if people would agree with this I think these things are sometimes made worse because that performance happens in front of the away fans who are the ones who are most committed to the football club.

So as soon as you lose that level of trust with that core group, you can't really just bring it back in off the back of one result itself.

So I don't think it looks good for him.

And I think it's a shame because he seems so many people like him.

But football is one of those games where sometimes, you know, if you're not performing, then it doesn't matter how nice you are.

Yeah, Nadum, as a fan who's seen their side lose 5-0.

In fact, in a week where Barry lost, I think, 5-0 and 5-1 to AFC Wimbledon away two games in a row in the same week.

I got very, very,

very angry.

So, so angry.

But, you know, just looking at that Fulham performance, I mean, there's no way to mince your words here.

I mean, defensively, they were just pathetic.

Like, you know, there was a real kind of lack of urgency, you know, like to Sangari leaving Jimenez just to run through.

Even stuff like Tofilo wasn't tracking for the first goal and then he's like looking around for offside.

And I think the really sad thing is that if a new manager did come in, there would be an improvement, wouldn't there?

Because just solely from the fact that he's new and he can,

if those players are downing tools, they'll certainly pick him up again.

But going back to your checkpoint analogy, it will only give you...

40 seconds, maybe a lap worth, and again, they'll still be in the same situation.

It'd be really brave, I think, of Maranakis to stick with Cooper no matter what and go, look, this is the guy who took us from looking towards League One to Premier League.

And we've survived.

And yeah you know it's not gone well now but we can trust him to do it again look what look at his record look what he's done and in fact if you guys aren't willing to work for him then i've got another 50 players over in greece who can take your place well yeah that that's the yeah very good point um the other standout game i think um villa against arsenal nadam and if villa win this then then we have to take them seriously sure sure i feel sorry for villa it's always like if they win this one and then if they win this one and if they win the next 20 games, then maybe, just maybe they'll be with a chance of winning the title.

I don't think it's an unpopular opinion, if you've watched them recently, to say that they're probably playing the best, if not the second best football in the league right now.

That Villa Man City game,

I was working for Amazon in the studio, and I said something, and I thought, this might sound like extreme recency bias, but I think I stand by it.

In the Premier League era, the games that the full games that I've seen of Aston Villa, that's the best I've ever seen them play.

They were astonishing.

The way they were at the back, the goalkeeper made those two big saves early in the game.

The midfield bullied all those that were in City's midfield for that game, whilst also having an extreme threat in attack.

Watkins was making the Samarsa runs.

Leon Bailey looked like the best version I'd seen before.

The crowd were rocking.

And it's not to say we're sleeping on it, but because it's Villa,

we should probably talk about it more.

It's 14 home wins in a row.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

That's outrageous.

If there were 14 games unbeaten at home, it'd be championed.

So to have 114 in a row, it is really crazy.

And so now here's the next test.

It's Arsenal.

And one thing we know, I'm sure everyone's getting that feeling now.

If Arsenal are like losing and it's...

10 minutes left to go on the clock, it's like, well, who's going to score this week?

You know,

we've seen this story before.

But it'll be interesting to see how the styles match up because arsenal in that midfield area they want to have the ball they want to be in the ascendancy but how will they deal with like villa's narrow midfield having the block are they going to try and counter it by just trying to kill them down down on the wings i think it makes for a fantastic game of football and i hope from villa's perspective that they didn't put all their eggs into that basket of playing against city because they could they could be humbled very quickly by arsenal at the weekend But if their form is true, their confidence is there, and they're as well-drilled as they were against City,

then I wouldn't be surprised if 14 turned to 15.

But, you know, Arsenal have a way of winning games as long as this time, you know, there's someone on the field that will help them out.

So I think it's going to be the game of the weekend.

Well, stand by, Villa fans, because Jordan Jarrett Bryan is on Monday's podcast after this game.

So that should be very exciting, no matter what the outcome there.

Elsewhere, Manchester United against Bournemouth, Spurs hosting Newcastle, Brighton versus Burnley, Shefford United against Brentford, Fulham, West Ham.

We'll cover them all on Monday's pod.

The new Premier League League TV deal, £6.7 billion

over four years for its UK television rights have gone to sky and TNT Sports.

Paulie written about this in the paper.

Anything that kind of football watching, football going fans should really look out for in this deal?

Well, I think what you're going to have is an end to, for football watching fans,

You're going to have an end to that kind of social media frustration that people have on a Sunday afternoon where those post-European games aren't on and everybody wants to watch them and somehow people are watching them but they don't know how and so on and so forth.

People are going to be able to watch it properly in the and I think that's going to be a change.

And I do think that what this deal symbolizes to an extent,

on the one hand, there's loads more games in this deal because the Premier League needed to make a

more money.

They needed to be able to show that

the show was still on the road, the finances were still improving, they're still growing, they're the dominant football league.

And so they kind of had to work out a way to make that happen.

And they decided that was to extend the contract from three years to four years and put more games into.

And so that's one of the reasons they did it.

But I think another thing is we are now increasingly in the era where the TV fan who is the most important fan to the financial success of the game is expecting to be able to watch every game and wants to be able to watch every game, or at least to be be able to dip in and dip out of it.

And I think if you look at what Amer you know, with US sports in particular, baseball and NFL, you know, you can and NBA, you can do all that.

That that is that is there.

That's the standard fan experience now.

And I think kind of we're moving to the point where football is going to be the same.

And obviously in England, you've got the question of the three p.m.

kickoff and blackouts, which have stopped us showing games before then.

I think ultimately that will change too.

Hopefully, fingers crossed in favor of the WSL, because I think that would be a real boost

to that competition.

Having a, you know, a particular, not only hallowed time slot, but a reliable time slot that you can kind of go and watch the games on.

So I think those are the changes.

I don't want to forget the fans in the ground

because I think fans in the ground do get forgotten an awful lot, particularly when it comes to things like VAR, but also kickoffs.

Yeah, we had this this week with the FA Cup, the announcement.

I've seen a lot of anger on social media about that, the sort of moving to 8 p.m.

on a Friday and things like that.

This is still, it's still kind of focusing on the TV viewer, really, isn't it?

Absolutely.

And as I say, they do that because

that's where the money is.

And I think, you know, people have to accept that.

And also, you know, a lot of people who are genuine football fans never go to the ground.

And us fans who do go to the ground have to accept that too.

But I think for fans who do go to the ground, while those, I'm sure the god-awful kind of last minute, oh, by the way,

it's Christmas Eve and it's 8 p.m.

and it's 400 miles away, it's still going to happen.

They haven't introduced any new kickoff time slots.

So they had been told that there would be a Sunday evening stroke night kickoff and that hasn't happened.

And I think that's probably a blessing, you know, a small blessing for the match going fans.

But yeah, basically, it means that the Premier League,

there's going to be more games for the fans and the Premier League is just looking like, if you didn't know it already, by far the most powerful domestic football competition in the world.

Outside of the Premier League,

Sunderland have parted ways with Tony Mowbray.

Swansea have let go of Michael Duff and Paul, how safe do we think David Wagner's job is at Norwich?

Well, I mean...

How safe do you want it to be, shall we say?

Well,

God, this is, where do I start?

Where do I stop?

I don't think it's safe.

I think he hasn't.

He's making some eccentric choices that don't do him any favours, like playing our central midfielder, who he tried to turn into a holding midfielder and then played as a center half Kenny McLean at the weekend so there's sort of like yeah some they're some unusual decisions we've had some terrible 5-0 bat five five goal batterings which as Sonny has already pointed out does does does something to a fan base and the the the football is quite stodgy the only thing I'd say about him is that uh

Dean Smith had the same problems and Daniel Farker

didn't even try to make and you know Daniel Farker was just all about one end of the pitch and not about the other.

So the fact is, we haven't been able to defend for

how long?

You know,

since Paul Lambert, Chris Hewton, so that's a decade, right?

And

in that time, we've had some great attacking football.

You know, the two championship titles were brilliant.

But we're facing what everybody else is facing.

It's the old warrior artist dilemma that we like to talk about.

And we can't get the balance.

We don't have the money to buy good players.

And as a result, you know,

we've veered from having loads of unproven players who weren't quite good enough to having loads of players who've been around a little bit too long and are past their best.

So, but, you know,

we've had our time in the sun.

And Nick Ames keeps messaging me and going, oh, oh, Paul, yeah.

Oh, by the way, oh, yeah, Ipswich won.

I'm like, oh, yeah, thanks.

Yeah, thanks, Nick, for that.

But at the same time, but, you know, they play such good stuff.

You know, I'm happy for them.

I want them to go and have their moment.

I don't, you know,

and maybe they'll maybe they'll make a long-term success of it.

But I think it's we've had our time.

It's good that other teams are doing well.

I think we'll improve over the course of the season.

But, yeah, I think Wagner will be out the door before long.

Meanwhile, in League One, Cambridge United have appointed Neil Harris.

How long before he breaks Rushton's heart?

Max will be back on Monday after Neil's first game in charge away at Charlton.

I'm sure it'll be in Australia special because of some of the discourse that's gone on this week.

But that's all we have time for today.

Thank you so much, Nadam.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Paul.

Nice to be with you, Robin.

Pleasure as always.

Thank you, Sandy.

Thank you very much indeed.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.