PSG reignite the handball debate and Wolves v VAR – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Newcastle, just minutes away from a famous victory in Paris before.

One of those hand balls.

What else are we meant to say about them?

Well done.

Good process.

They'd ridden their luck.

Nick Pope was brilliant.

PSG Mr.

Hatfell, but still quite a performance from this threadbare squad who keep defying the odds.

Dormant are through the group of death after three wins in a row and a relatively comfortable victory in Milan.

Has Pep chanced upon a way to get a decent atmosphere at the Etihad?

Just go two goals down and stage a late recovery.

Phil Foden at the heart of everything in that second half.

We won't forget Monday night football.

At least there's no var chat in the Premier League.

All we want is consistency and it is consistent to continually screw over Gary O'Neill.

He seems like a nice guy.

Can't they just leave him alone?

There's a lovely goal in Barnsley.

Your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Mendening, welcome.

Hello.

Hello, Nicki Mandini.

Morning.

And hello, Felipe O'Claire.

Bonjour.

Bonjour sava to the Park des Prince then.

PSG1, Newcastle 1.

Chilton says, no questions, Max.

Really excited to hear the first 10 minutes of the pod talking about VAR.

Mark, keen to know Max's thoughts on handball in the box.

Not sure it's been discussed before.

Mark, this VAR lark makes things interesting, doesn't it, Barry?

And Ian says, when was the last non-contentious handball penalty decision?

Terry McDermott in the 1981 League Cup final?

Dan says, I'm not entirely sure.

I could be wrong.

I don't think Alan Shearer was happy with that penalty decision.

Shearer tweeted last night.

Do me a fucking favor, man.

What a load of shit.

Which is in contrast to the Newcastle Arsenal game a few weeks ago where he tweeted, well done, Ref, you're the man.

I don't know, Nikki, if it's interesting to talk about it, but I mean,

all the questions we've got were about this moment, and it does feel so harsh on Newcastle.

Of course, you know, PSG missed a load of chances,

but

how is that a penalty?

It's well,

I think some people picked up on this in Twitter as well, but I was laughing when it happened, and I feel bad laughing at it because live TV is hard.

And sometimes you slip up with your sort of phrasing.

But Jermaine Jane is saying, in any walk of life, that's not a penalty, just

hit my funny phone because I was trying to imagine walks of life in which it might be a different consideration.

Everybody walking around the street with their arms behind their back now you couldn't possibly give away a penalty on the way to wait rows could you?

But yeah, I mean to be serious about it no I didn't think it was a penalty and I think when you get into the

the the the rules about

is the arm in an unnatural position, of course it's not and every mentor is running and therefore he's using his arms to balance himself like a human does.

Having said that, have I seen penalties like that given in Italy?

Yes.

Have I seen penalties given in European football?

Yes.

Is there consistency?

No.

Is this going to be the most repetitive conversation we have forever and ever?

Yes.

I don't know what I can add to it.

I didn't think it was a penalty.

I think Newcastle are within their rights to feel

frustrated and more than frustrated, upset, because these things define entire seasons, right?

These moments completely change the course of a team.

But I just don't know what I can say that's going to add depth to this conversation, I suppose.

Well, it's not supposed to have any kind of depth.

It's just a vehicle for anger, isn't it?

And frustration.

So, football is this great cathartic thing.

And it's amazing.

I actually watched this game in France, Max.

And

what was very funny is that the

commentating team on Canal Plus, they're basically like a PSG fan club.

I mean, you would be amazed at the way they analyze a game, and

they started their coverage by showing uh the referee of the night, Monsieur Martignac, uh, having a long conversation and shaking Kiryan Bappé's hand, head uh, hand actually will be better than head, yes, uh, in

yes, that would be better, on their way out to uh, to the pitch.

And of course, saying, Well, Mr.

Marcignac, he was the referee of the World Cup final, you know,

that there is previous there between Bappé and Mr.

Marcignac.

And during the whole game, they kept saying, oh, this referring decision is a bit strange.

And it's strange that every decision seems to be going against PSG.

There must be something.

Monsieur Marsignac really, you know, you can't be serious.

All this kind of stuff.

Until

the VAR call.

And even they said,

it might be a bit harsh on Newcastle.

And for them to say that, I think we can take it, stop the conversation here, say, yeah, it might have been very, very harsh indeed on the Eddie House team.

And, but my goodness, I hadn't watched a French game on the French TV channel for a while.

And suddenly, believe me, the British or English commentators seem like a paragon of fairness and

balance compared to what is being served to French viewers.

I was going to say, should we have a kind of competition, like a parallel competition, the Champions League, where we would have

who's the most biased?

Is it the French, the English, the Italians?

I'm surely Nikki.

History has this almost like two-tiered sort of system there, where there's the sort of most mainstream channels.

Not that they can't be biased because they are, but then you also have these almost sort of fan presentations for which Tiziana Crudelli is the most famous example,

who got a sort of famous evening in England for a little while and was doing, I think, Lab Brooks Adverts, certainly a betting company.

So there are slightly different

levels within Italy.

But I mean, yes, there's definitely bias.

Can I go back to the Han Baul decision?

People are going to say I'm being a contrarian.

I'm not.

By our old friend, the pedantic old pal, the letter of the law, the correct decision was made.

Now, I think we can all agree it's a stupid decision,

but

according to UEFA, that was the correct decision.

And

people,

Newcastle fans, Sky Sports News, Talksport, among others, have all been quoting this text from

a kind of advisory board made up of ex-pros, ex-managers, I think,

who recommended to FIFA or UEFA that exactly what happened to Tino Luvramento last night should not be a handball.

And they're quoting this scripture saying this is why the penalty should have stood.

What most of them aren't mentioning, probably...

because they just don't know, is that those recommendations by that panel were rejected by UEFA.

So according to UEFA guidelines, Mr.

Marciniak was correct to award that penalty.

Now I think it's horribly unfair and a stupid law, but that is the law.

And people have also been going, well, but what about

the penalty that was awarded against Wolves when a Luton player crossed the ball, it hit Jua Gomez on the foot, I think, sort of rolled up his body and then hit his outstretched hand.

Why was

that given?

The reason is the laws are applied differently in the Premier League to the UEFA or to the

Champions League and because Hua Gomez had his hand out or his arm outstretched over his head.

So that's why that was given.

So

I think it shouldn't have been a penalty, but according to the law, it was the correct decision.

I think this is where I would push back a little bit on that.

I think the whole point is that the law is ambiguous, right?

The law talks about this sort of extending your natural frame.

And there's

this sort of idea of what is a natural movement is what comes into question.

And where I agree with you completely is I think if you look at decisions made in the Premier League compared to whether made where I observe them most, which is in Serie A, there's no question that the law is applied much more strictly in Serie A.

There are far more handballs given in Serie A than in the Premier League.

I think that there is not this within the law absolutely clear-cut language that gives you an answer either way, which is why there's always going to be an argument about it.

The problem is if you want there to not be an argument about it, you have to get to absolutely black and white terms that involve no subjectivity about intention or about, which is what UEFA are trying to do and failing to do.

And if you want to have no subjectivity, then the answer is if the ball hits an arm, it's a handball full stop.

And that's the only only really black and white way you can give it other than removing handballs barry that little bit you did about when you said the law a million times is the most you've sounded like hastings from line of duty

sweet baby jesus from the transported

it was transported there we could i'm trying to write a column about this we could change the law right i mean i wouldn't give it i'd just say play on but you could say if it hits your hand unless it's suarez going in it's a free kick so you don't need to go a var you don't do anything you just say, right, it's a free kick there.

You're less likely to have a goal.

Goals matter.

There are too many penalties.

And that, and it would sort of,

it would make it more consistent.

So would you have a deliberate handball in the box, penalty, not deliberate handball, just an accident, free kick?

Sure.

And of course, of course, of course, there would be a row over the subject.

And we would have indirect free kicks in the box, which are one of the greatest things in the game.

But as long as you're saying it's deliberate, there's going to be a fight.

I don't know if what Max meant more than deliberate was, is the ball going in?

Because if you could make that a category that's more easy to like judge in a neutral way is is the ball going to go in if that hand doesn't hit it and then it's a penalty luis suarez and samagi and that's that isn't a deliberate handball and i think what we saw last night was definitely not a deliberate handball and you should consider not deliberate any ball that hits the hand or the arm after it has rebounded from another part of the body that should be not deliberate that's that's quite clear i mean the thing is that A penalty was given for this, which you cannot understand if you go by the letter of the law.

And also probably here, the Vau people were right to refer it to the referee because he obviously hadn't seen the fact that it it it hit the hand he he hadn't really seen it properly so that was fine but i'm thinking of an incident that happened yesterday in the game between fair and atletico madrid where there was a stonewall penalty that wasn't given did you see that alvaro morata

Alvaro Morata,

his shirt was pulled and he was put off balance as he was trying a diving header with the goal gaping at his mercy.

But because he was able to head the ball, the referee said, play on.

That's ridiculous.

He was clearly impeded in the act of trying to score a goal three yards from the goal line by a player who pulled his shirt.

And I don't care the fact that Marata was able to head the ball in the end.

It should have been a penalty.

And it was not given.

Well, look, if you're in.

It's crazy.

Yeah, if you're enjoying this,

you'll love Fulham Wolves.

No.

New Carson were, you know, they were sort of stoic, Barry.

They were, you know, they rode their luck.

Minik Pope was brilliant, but you,

you know, they weren't robbed in a way because PSG had so many chances, but they also were robbed.

Like, both are possible.

I think if you'd offered Newcastle a point before the game, they'd have happily taken it.

I was hugely impressed with their performance.

All 11 players were excellent.

The only

criticism I'd have of their performance, and it's probably unfair, is that while they are ravaged by injuries,

eight of that starting 11 started the corresponding fixture St.

James's Park against PSG when they spanked them 4-1.

And the three who came in, I think it's Livermento, Miley and

who's the third?

Oh, Fabian Scharr, I think.

They were all outstanding last night.

So I'm not sure they needed to be as backs to the wall wall as they were

and I think they could have taken more risks in the second half I can appreciate why they didn't but the fact that they sat back and just defended the whole second half

very much increased the likelihood of them conceding a penalty and I to be fair I do think that Anthony Gordon fouled on Asher Fakimi.

I think that should have been a penalty and it wasn't given.

I think they got away with one there.

But other opinions are available.

Clearly, you disagree.

But no, I was hugely impressed with the Newcastle performance.

But if they want to be judged by the very highest standards, because they were playing with the big boys now, I think they could have been slightly more proactive.

I mean, I kind of don't think any penalty is a penalty.

Now become so sort of, you know, actually.

No foul is a penalty.

It's also worth pointing out, you know, and it seems laughable that we're, you know, plucky little underdog Churchmice Newcastle, but their bench had two goalkeepers,

Paul Dummett, and four teenagers,

none of whom were attackers, and three of the teenagers had two senior appearances for the club between them.

So they had very little on the bench, whereas

Luis Enrique was able to turn to his bench packed with talent, bring on several players who changed the game, but Bradley Barcola missed a a hat full of chances and probably should have won it for PSG.

It's always Paul Dummett that gets named as look how shit this is.

Yeah, it seems really unfair, actually.

I kind of spat his name out there with contempt I didn't mean.

From a PSG point of view, Philippe,

where are they?

It was a very frustrating.

They knew they got away with it.

I mean, as happened in the first game, actually, against Newcastle, the first 10 to 15 minutes were absolutely stupendous in terms of how quickly they were passing the ball, how incisive they were, particularly on the right hand, on the right flank, where Dembelli was given all sorts of nightmares to Livermento.

But then afterwards, as they do, when things are not quite looking like they're going to score the goal they think they deserve, if you see what I mean, they tend to take their foot off the pedal and they let Newcastle back in the game.

And I think there were loads of things to admire, but there were also

loads of players who probably didn't perform at their right level i mean dona ruma certainly not one

and again i'm afraid to seki and beppe um were certainly not the uh the force that he could be and i think it was in a way summarized in in that beautiful move that they did on on on the right flank where Mbappe tried to do a back hill behind the standing foot to beat the keeper, which if it had worked, would have been one of the goals of the season, you know, the conclusion of a beautiful move.

But he was not, this timing was not quite on.

He could have taken it perhaps with the foot normally and perhaps scored.

And it was, and he looked really frustrated all night through.

And they also, it also shows how they struggle against sides, which are very compact, like this 4-5-1 we saw, which became a 6-4-1, then a 6-3-1.

Habib Bey, the former Senegal International, who was commentating for French television, he was actually a very good consultant, by the way.

He was not singing PSG's praises all the way through.

He said, it's difficult to play against a team which has parked the bus, and you think, okay, here goes the cliché.

But he said, it's even more difficult to play against a team that's brought the bus and the bus keeps moving.

And which I thought that's quite nice, actually, because it's true that they were incredibly intelligent in their movement, Newcastle, in terms of defensive movement, and also the times when they actually, their high press was extremely effective.

And PSG are not used to that.

So I would disagree a bit with

Bat on that.

As in, I think they played the right game.

They weathered the storm, another cliché for the first 15 minutes, got back into the game, perhaps could have done a little bit more, but to me, they looked physically a little bit blunt, I have to say,

as the game went on.

So all in all,

you know, a superb performance by them and

a deserved scoreline at the end.

I mean, they really put in a shift against Chelsea at the weekend, and

I thought in the final twenty minutes they'd fall apart just out of sheer mental and physical exhaustion so because it was the same eleven that started against Chelsea and not

anyhow didn't make any substitutions so they deserve I think immense credit and I think they were all superb Lewis Miley what a performance from a a child

it was just sensational

I was actually just going to make the point that I think Bass just touched on there which is um obviously my eyes were more on the on the Mean game which was happening at the same time but I sort of was an astonishing detail that there was not a single substitution from Newcastle given what Baz just said about the same team playing at the weekend I understand everything about the the lack of depth on the bench but are you asking too much of of your players to to to not bring any fresh legs into that situation when you're back to the wall I don't know because it's one of those stories where and I think this is constantly true in all football but even more true in the Champions League where you have these tight groups and and

one game can can ruin everything.

One goal can ruin everything.

But we need to probably avoid rewriting a narrative based on what happens with the goal at the end because that penalty doesn't get given and Newcastle don't concede.

Then it was obviously vindicated not to make those changes.

So look, Dortmund are through.

Haven't necessarily won the group yet.

They play PSG next.

Newcastle and Milan third and fourth on five points.

Milan lost three went at home to Dortmund.

What did you make of it, Nikki?

It was a hugely entertaining game, like a really, really fun game of football because both teams just played wide open.

So much space between the Lions.

Borderline irresponsible from both teams a lot.

Some brilliant football at times, some great goals.

Great to see another English teenager, Bono Gittens, for Dortmund, scored the second goal.

He's been on fire recently and clearly looks like another fantastic up-and-coming talent.

At the other end of, I suppose, the age spectrum on the pitch, Max Hummels was immense in defence for Dortmund.

Having said all that, from a Milan point of view, it's the same story it's been all through this group, which is missed opportunities.

They had a penalty at 0-0, which Olivia Giroud missed.

Another hand-ball decision, which I thought was clear-cut, but BT's commentators did not think was clear-cut, but that penalty missed at 0-0.

Then they concede a penalty, which is so avoidable, completely unnecessary challenge from Calabria, who's one of the most experienced players in the team and should know better, gives away a penalty, gives the lead to Dortmund.

Milan comeback in Tuichikueze, who hadn't scored yet since joining the summer, scores a great goal.

And at 1-0, Milan had real chances to to to put themselves in front ruben loftus cheek um got past hummels at one point and it was three on one and and he just seemed to take a heavy next touch which meant that he never quite had it under control in the way that he should have done so for me lan i think you look at this group and they certainly will feel that they should have won a home to newcast and they didn't they could have won away to dortmund and they didn't and they could have won this game and they didn't um and it doesn't look like that because they lost 3-1 but again look at expected goals.

And

they were not short of chances in this game.

They were missing Raphael Liao, who's their transformative player up front.

But I think it's actually just a fundamental issue for them.

They're not as Ruth.

They're not as clinical.

They lack that goal scoring edge they need.

And in the group of death, that was always likely to cost them in the end.

And I think it has.

All right, that'll do for part one.

Part two will begin at the Etihad.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So look, Man City have won five from five.

They beat RB Leipzig 3-2 coming back from two goals down.

So that was entertaining, Philippe, wasn't it?

That was like, after we talked about the Etihad being quiet against Liverpool, this was, by the end, it was rocking.

Yeah, I know.

Maybe with Manchester City, there should be what you do in chess sometimes, like when you play against a much stronger opponent, and you say, oh, I'll give you a pawn, I'll give you a knight, I'll give you a bishop, even a rook advantage, you know, when you're playing against the master.

So maybe it would be an idea.

Like either you could have Manchester City starting with seven players and getting then eight or nine every 10 minutes, you know, something like that, or being given a two-goal

disadvantage at the start, and that would make for better football.

But it was not.

I mean, it's what is very strange that this first half, which Pep Guardia will probably look on as probably the worst that they've played this season.

Would you agree with that in terms defensively, certainly?

Because the two goals.

Sanny Ruben Diaz, you know.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, Luis Openda, by the way, not a bad player, is he?

And another player from Liège, by the way.

We can talk about that.

But then afterwards, you saw the real Manchester City.

And I have to say that Phil Foden's performance in the second half was just I mean mesmerizing absolutely beautiful but they didn't look their their usual best and it's it's

and I'm thinking what what Bass was saying about Eddie Howe using the same team that had played against Chelsea when I saw the

lineup I thought I'm not sure that Peb Guardiola has got it right because in fact he had put probably what was his strongest available lineup for this game when qualification had already been achieved and it was a question finishing the top of the group.

I'm thinking, are the players players going to be really as up for it as they would wouldn't be the chance apart from or take acomino for editerson wouldn't be a chance for um a few other players perhaps to um to show what they could do in this context they looked a little bit unfocused let's put it that way they lacked concentration both ends of the pitch you know louis scanning this shot that he normally would put in and Diaz having an absolute nightmare.

But then second half, you see the difference and some quite beautiful, actually,

beautifully flowing football with Phil Foden.

That goal, I think, is when you can literally put two opponents out of play just by a shimmy, drop of the shoulder and then immediately shoot, that's art.

It was really beautiful.

As someone who has negotiated the Liege one-way traffic system while covering the Tour de France, I'm hugely impressed with anyone who can get out of that city,

let alone go sign for Arby Leipzig and hugely impress against the European champions.

I think Folden was brilliant throughout, but the highlight was his post-match interview in which he described the game as a half of two sides.

I think there's a freedom that some of these young English players are playing with that's really exciting.

I think that there's this generation of attacking talents that's coming through.

And obviously, Jude Bellingham is

poster boy and a bit younger, but there's just this group of,

i don't know if you want to call them wingers attacking midfielders attackers they all sort of within that broader category so i think of them all as attacking players but they all just seem to have a a confidence and um willingness to to do things to take risks to try things on the ball that i think is is a real gear shift from previous generations and i think it's it's really exciting to see and phil foden has been brilliant if only gareth would take the handbrake off for goodness sake then we'd be all right um Yes, paz?

On TNT's highlights show,

so Julian Leron did the goals show, and he was absent from the highlights show.

Presumably, he had to go and have a lie-down after the PSG game.

But John Hutchinson was in his place.

I'm a big fan of him as a pundit.

I think he's outstanding.

But he said that he thinks Jack Grealish is really going to struggle to get back in that city side.

I'm just wondering what my fellow panelists might think of that assessment.

What do you think, Philippe?

I mean, you've got what Doku is.

Doku is Doku has been incredibly impressive, hasn't he?

Yes, actually thinking of it,

I think Don Hutchinson and Barry might have a point.

I hadn't thought of it like that at all.

But if you were to

take

to

name a first 11 for Pep Guardiola, you would put Doku ahead of him, wouldn't you?

At the moment?

It might depend on who you're playing, I suppose, and whether or not he has plans to deprogram and reboot Doku like he

did Grivish.

Another Belgian.

By the way, people were saying, oh, the Golden Generation is gone.

Oh, no, hello, here come Doku and

Louisa Panda, who, by the way, was bought for almost no money by Lance

just about

18 months ago.

He cost almost nothing from Club Bruges, and now he's probably 60 million players, not more than that.

Yeah, but however many young kids they have, it will still be Alder Wilrelt, Jason Denier, Jan Vertongen for the rest of time, won't it?

Young boys beat Red Star 2-0.

That win means a point in their final group game against Leipzig will guarantee them qualification for the Europa League.

In Group E, Lazio 2, Celtic 0.

Celtic's Champions League dream is over.

I mean, we could have said that a few weeks ago, probably.

Winless in their last 14 in the competition, losing 11.

I don't know, Baz, how do Scottish teams, you know, how does Celtic become more competitive?

I think this is the exact same question you asked me after every Celtic defeat in the Champions League.

But the prime is they were competitive last.

I thought they were competitive against Latio.

They did have their chances.

They were not too lucky.

It's the prime, how do you go from getting competitive to actually get points?

There's a difference between the two, and they don't seem to have made the transition.

Yeah, they didn't have much cutting edge.

And

Kiro Mobile was on the bench for Latio.

I'm curious to know why, Nikki, why he didn't start.

And he came on and just boom, boom, game over.

The way they get competitive is for the Scottish Premier League to become more competitive.

And

by dint of Celtic being in the Champions League every season, it's not going to become more competitive because

they have much more money than everyone else.

So it's a vicious cycle they're caught in.

I did see,

I can't remember who it was.

A Celtic fan I know.

It wasn't Barrisa Jim.

It might have been Lawrence Dunnegan, but I can't remember.

But they had a right go at the Celtic head of recruitment on Twitter and said that as long as he's in place, nothing is going to improve.

I am in no position to offer an opinion on whether that's a valid criticism or not.

I'm presuming you are in a position to offer a valid opinion on Chiro Immobile and why he wasn't starting.

Yeah, well, so there's been a bit of an ongoing story with Immobile this season because they signed Tati Castellano, so we've talked about on the pod before, in the summer Lazio.

Immobile got off to a slow start, and then you have the owner, Claudio Lotito, saying, hey, you know, I spent money on this striker in the summer, why aren't you playing this striker I signed?

And so Castellano's been playing some games and he's had some good moments.

And so there's been a bit of a, I know Italy they call it a safeta, there's been this sort of uncomfortable rotation between the two of them to decide who's supposed to be the first choice.

And Immobile hasn't always been as sharp as he has been in past seasons, but this was very much a case of him coming off the bench and doing what Imobile does, which is being an exceptional poacher.

And

I find the fact that Lazio are through this group with a game despair sort of fascinating because they're almost the opposite of Milan.

Milan, who've played some better football

and certainly are a better team than Lazio right now, but have been able to score, whereas Lazio have just constantly found goals in this group when they needed them.

I mean, it was a 94th minute equalizer against Atletico at the start with Providel the goalkeeper scoring it.

Then it was a 94th minute winner against Celtic away with Empedro scoring it.

Two goals here from the 80th minute onwards.

They've not been good, I don't think, really

much at all in this group, but they score goals they need and so they're going through.

Atletico threw as well.

They won through one in Final.

Very funny game, by the way, Max.

Why?

I mean,

the Hamoso finish was amazing, but why was it a funny thing?

The Hamoso finish is absolutely.

Do you think he meant it?

I want to think so.

Yeah, come on.

But I think the first, because there are two own goals for, or I should say, against Fire Not, but the first one I think is an absolute classic because it's a slow-mo-owned goal.

They're very precious.

You know, there's the one diving bullet header in your own net.

That's one thing.

But this one is bull

being lobbed in a vaguely half-dangerous situation, just

it's touching, but almost just the surface of the jersey of the final defender then being

deviated just enough to go beyond the keeper, all this in slow motion.

That was brilliant.

Yeah, it sort of bounced about 10 times.

Yeah, and no one could get it.

Everyone knew what was happening, but no one could get it.

But well done, athletic.

Group H Barcel beat Porto 2-1,

and they're through to the round of 16.

They haven't done that for a couple of years, so that is good news for them.

It's always weird seeing Barcelona not at the Camp Nu, isn't it?

Of the final round of pictures, Porto have to play Shaktar for sort of winner takes all.

Who's going to come second in this group?

Because they're both on nine points, Antwerp with nothing.

So for Shaktar to be even close is quite extraordinary, isn't it?

Shaktar beat Antwerp 1-0 in the early game in that group.

That'll do for part two.

Part 3 will begin with Fulham's victory over Wolves.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Dan says, Thoughts with Arsenal Everton fans as the footballing agenda is now confirmed to be against Wolves.

They lost 3-2 bass to Fulham.

Gary O'Neill says, Maybe tonight has finally turned me against VAR.

I'm amazed it's taken in this long.

The impact you're having on my reputation and the club and people's livelihoods is massive.

I've always been for VAR, but I think it's causing problems at the moment.

I think VAR has cost us there.

So they have, yes, I mean, I don't know which was the most

one of the penalties was terrible.

And then the late penalty is, I mean, it might be a foul, but I don't know.

And Vinicius head-butting, but not head-butting someone hard enough so it's not a red card.

I don't know what you made of all of it, Barry.

I thought it was a good game for a start.

And

as someone with no particular skin in the game, I

kind of enjoyed the controversies.

And

I do think Fulham

Wolves were very unlucky.

And

obviously, this isn't the first time they've been on the wrong end of an egregious decision that's cost some points.

Opening day of the season, there was Onana clattering Sasakaladzic and Wolves not getting a penalty.

So, you could say that's a point lost.

The Luton one I mentioned earlier in this podcast, technically that was a correct decision.

So,

and to be fair, I don't think O'Neill included that one in his, I'm not going to say rant because he was very measured.

He wasn't angry.

I mean, I think he was inwardly seething, but he, you know, he said, I'm not angry with anyone.

I'm not in there abusing people.

It's a conversation that was talking about his chat with the ref.

Incidentally, didn't he say three weeks ago he was never going to talk to referees again?

And he seems to have done little else since.

But

that's beside the one.

Then against Newcastle away, Fabian Shar was given given a ridiculous penalty despite not being fouled by Wang Hee Chan.

And Wool's got an apology for that one.

That's another two points lost.

Against Sheffield United, much the same penalty was given against Fabio Silva.

That's a point lost, you could say.

And then on Fulham, I thought...

Semedo's being penalised for a non-existent foul on Kearney when the score was 1-1

was I that was the worst of the decisions, I think.

Finishes should have been sent off for butting Max Kill, but this notion that because the head butt wasn't violent enough, it doesn't count.

That's just ludicrous.

And I thought it would have been harsh to give Tim Ream a second yellow card for bundling over Wang

when Wolves got their penalty.

It would have been double punishment.

I don't think it was enough of a foul.

It was a foul.

I don't think it was a bookable offence, but others disagree.

And apparently the officials disagreed or

said it that they should have sent him off.

So I will bow to their,

I'm low to use the word, but superior judgment.

So, but yeah, Wolves have every right to feel hard done by.

You could argue they've been diddled out of minimum five points this season, possibly more.

While I don't like managers complaining about referees after games, I certainly certainly sympathise with Gary O'Neill.

And I think the way he went about criticising this occasion was

good because it was measured and it was respectful.

And he didn't go off on a mouth-forming rant.

But will anything be done?

Who knows?

Yeah.

I mean, actually, Eddie Howe didn't either.

He was quite measured after that PSG game, wasn't it?

Yeah, he was.

I mean, Fulham and Wolves are sort of in that, they'll be okay, but they're not going to do much position, I would say, Barry.

I mean, that's sort of.

I don't know who of the two of them.

I'm more impressed with Wolves than I am with Fulham currently.

I don't think Fulham are particularly good, I have to say, on the evidence of what I've seen.

Yeah, I don't think they'll be in trouble.

They very much have a sort of somewhere between 10th and 15th feel about them, both these sides, don't they?

I think if either of them were going to get sucked into a relegation battle, it might be Fulham.

But if Wolves keep getting

screwed over by referees, I mean, if I was a Wolves fan,

I would be utterly convinced there's a conspiracy against my team.

But of course there isn't.

It just seems to be unfortunate that it keeps happening to them.

And Howard Webb must have his head in his hands.

I think the same thing happened to Brighton last season, didn't it?

They just kept getting shafted.

And there's no doubt in my mind, it's just an unfortunate coincidence.

You know, you could say looking at the Newcastle game

last night and the one against Arsene, you could argue, well, what goes around comes around but wolves have a lot in the

a lot of IOUs in the post if that's the case it's gonna be one game where wolves get absolutely everything it'll be amazing won't it Nikki on the the the

because we need to have more VAR conversation on on the sort of wolves being hard done by part of it I think I remember a football supporters association survey from a couple of years ago asking fans do you think your team has been sort of positively or negatively affected in terms of of results by VAR and I think something like four percent of fans said that they thought their team had had been on the lucky end of things and 80% said they hadn't so I think every team one way or another still with or without VAR thinks that their team's hard done by in terms of Fulham and Wolves I think the difference for me is

Fulham just don't have a goal scorer who you feel like is going to reliably get them through games and I sort of feel like I'm fixating on goals this this episode but since Mitrovich is gone who's really picked up that burden burden there isn't a player who's doing it for them and obviously William scored a couple of goals here and is a top scorer but I think that's my biggest reservation for them in terms of staying up is you do need someone who's going to put the ball in the net yeah they did sign Ral Himeneth from Wolves to do that who hasn't done that yes while we're on the laws of the game Alan says ifab are planning to introduce 10 minute sinbins for cynical fouls and descent how big of a change would this be for the game are you in favour um yeah alongside that they've proposed trials where only the team captain can approach the ref And it was agreed that Simbins were to sentence specific tactical offenses should be tried at high-level football following their successful implementation in grassroots football.

I am all in favor, Philip.

Yes,

I still prefer the old Gaelic games black card, which I know they've ditched, but I really like the black card, which is when a player does something like that, the player is sent off but replaced.

So

you're not numerical inferiority, but you lose a player.

And

so,

yes, I mean,

that would be a start.

I don't think that 10 minutes is necessarily long enough, to be honest.

And

the impact would probably be on possession and tactical shape more than anything.

But if it can stop this kind of fouls happening, which they do in every single game, yeah, absolutely.

I think it's a bit of a no-brainer, isn't it?

I mean, the orange card, if I'm not mistaken, there was a plan.

which had been brought forward by Jean-Champagne at FIFA back in the 90s.

It was already already talked about at the time.

And for some reason, it got lost in a, you know, in a drawer somewhere in an office in Zurich.

But yeah, absolutely.

Let's let's do it.

And it wouldn't take very long to implement this.

Is there any indication as to a timetable for this, Max?

Because we know that the tests have happened at lower level, particularly in England, to be honest, I wasn't aware of that.

And now the question is to bring it to high-level competitive football.

So maybe next season.

But I think, yeah, it would be very much a step in the right direction.

And as to the captain only being able to talk to the ref, yes, please, it is absolutely ridiculous to see what we see every single game.

And also, by the way, sometimes you see a referee brandishing a yellow card when there's all this dissent.

Like there was like when PSG completely lost their discipline last night.

And he, I can't remember which one, got a yellow card for exactly what everybody does all of the time at the moment.

So there again, there is no consistency.

And if it's just a captain, it's just a captain and you look out for everybody else, and we will all feel the better for it.

I feel like a simbin' is a great answer to dissent because it's one of those things where you can sort of really easily extend or reduce it depending on how much.

So, if someone's just giving you too much talk, right, two minutes off, then if you keep talking, you're going to keep getting it longer and longer, right?

So, sliding one of those mechanisms that keep players going to right, like if you right, you've got two minutes simbin, but if you keep talking, I can make it five, I can make it ten.

It's very naughty step, isn't it?

It's really naughty, yeah, exactly.

Basically, naughty step.

They could do that.

They could brand that and it could have advertising on it.

It could be the, I don't know, I'm going to say Wilco because they're out of business.

I'm not giving anyone sponsorship.

The Wilco naughty step for the next two minutes.

If,

yeah, if you have been,

Fernandino would have been like Oscar the Grouch in Sesame Street,

just living in it.

So just, can I be clear?

The three of you

are endorsing.

In this game we love, we already have a set of laws that are completely unmanageable.

And you want to introduce a raft of new laws that will

slow the game down, increase time wasting,

probably increase levels of dissent rather than decrease it.

You want to introduce these laws, more laws, for people to get upset about.

I don't think it would increase dissent.

If people keep leaving the pitch, they'll start being quiet, I think.

I mean, everybody agrees that the punishment for tactical fouls is insufficient.

So the sin bin is a solution.

What is the other...

Make it a red card then.

In which case, there is a huge quantitative, qualitative difference between violent play and

tactical fouling,

which does not have any

consequences on the physical integrity of the player concerned.

It seems to be quite a giant leap to have the same punishment for both, which is the idea of the orange card.

And again, I say the black card, which I thought was fantastic.

Why the GEAA decided to do away with it, I don't know.

Maybe that would be interesting to find out.

But there has to be some extra kind of punishment for this type of fouls.

Well, surely if a booking for something isn't enough, then the obvious next step is to make it a sending off offense.

No, I'm with Philippe.

I think

I like the idea of tactical fouls, 10 minutes in the bin, see if it stops it.

But you need to try these things in high-profile, meaningless games like the Community Shield and International Friendlies, and I don't know, the EFL Trophy, like in games where no one really cares about them, but we actually see if it works.

To make this work, it would need to be done in a way that's almost more like how line changes happen in ice hockey, where it's just like a quick on and off.

Because if you get this sim bin, then gets the VAR involved, it's going to get out of hand completely, right?

If it's a decision that can be stopped and we delay the game even more, it's clearly worse.

It has to be a right, as soon as you step off the pitch, we'll start a clock running.

You can come back on when that clock's out.

It has to be done in a way that isn't going to add more stoppages to the game.

That's the problem because it works in rugby.

Because in rugby, you've got real timekeeping.

So, therefore, imagine if you've got 10 minutes in the sin bin and the next 10 minutes, you basically have breakups in play absolutely happening all the time.

In fact, the player who's been punished will only have missed like three or four minutes.

There is a problem there.

So,

it's a bit more complicated, perhaps.

Well, you have to say both teams have to give it a good go when the guy's been sin binned.

I'm sure I remember arguments like this ahead of VAR where people were going, oh, let'll be grand.

It'll be absolutely.

You're probably right.

You're probably right, Barry.

Who knows?

This would be an absolute calamity if it's introduced.

Here to watch this.

Was the Barnsley goal tonight one of the greatest things to happen in football?

Yeah, Barnsley beat Wickham 1-0 with a goal from Sam Cosgrove in the 91st minute.

The Wickham keeper,

Max Strigek,

was doing that thing where goalkeepers just keep the ball at their feet and don't pick it up until the last minute.

And then the striker ran up to him and he picked the ball up at the last minute.

And the striker sort of bumped into him very softly.

So he fell over and spilled the ball.

And Sam Crossgrove just scored.

And then he stood there going, oh,

I really shouldn't have done that.

Find it out.

It's really, really funny.

David Squires, a message to say he almost went full Munich, given Swindon were 4-0 up in the 89th minute away, Accrington Stanley.

And then Accrington Stanley scored in the 92nd, 97th, and 100th minute before having one cleared off the line before full-time but a win is a win.

I hear Max you might have come perilously close to your own little Munich in the past 24 hours.

Well Neil does say thoughts and prayers over your food poisoning Max.

Did it compare to Barry's Munich experience or were you near your facilities?

I mean I don't know how

I don't know how graphic you want me to go, Barry.

I had a I think it was a chicken fried rice that did it.

And I was, I was on Zoom.

I was having a Zoom game of Scrabble with my mum, and I started to feel really quite bad.

I was like, okay, so I finished that up and thought, well, if I can get to bed, because my stomach was in absolute knots, I was like, if I can get to bed, then it will all be all right.

I wasn't kidding anyone.

Everyone knew what was going to happen, but I was like, come on, just get in and lie down.

I think I must have fallen asleep for half an hour.

And then I sort of went into the, I went into the toilet.

And I sort of had a couple of, you know, a couple of those just hands and knees over the toilet, but nothing happens.

I think, oh, I might be all right.

So, then I went back to bed again, and then I got up, and then I was like, Oh,

maybe it's not, maybe it's not that end that I need to go, maybe it's the other end.

So, I

uh

sat on the toilet and began my business.

At which point, I got the full sweat.

Like, I got the 20-second warning, this is happening, and I didn't have time to like spin around and get my head in the right position.

So, I just hurled myself onto the uh, over the into the shower, which is just on the right and can only describe us it was sort of like team america it was like it was like vomiting graham alexander penalties it was like honestly it was like tony yaboa's left foot had become my stomach lining it was absolutely insane i was sort of marveling while at the same time really feeling quite bad anyway That all finishes, you know, like that 20 seconds before you're going to be sick is like, that is the worst feeling on earth, right?

It hasn't happened yet, but you know.

And but it was all done.

I was a bit sort of sweaty and I then I realized then I obviously remembered that I I had been mid-other business so then I went and sort of sat in the toilet to clear myself up and here's where it goes a little bit Munich

I hadn't been aware during the Graham Alexanders that I had also had an incident oh no yeah but to but to make it worse

I sat back on the toilet and I only noticed when like it appeared that I was

I was just sort of

streaming excrement around the bottom of the bathroom because I stood right on

this is so much detail

and so

stop it.

And so I was sort of I obviously wasn't feeling very well and then I was standing up and every place time I placed my foot somewhere I was it was sort of going

What I would have done in that situation Max is gone in picked up the child Just brought him into the bathroom sat him in the middle of it and then woken up the current Mrs.

Rush and gone, look what he's done.

No, but I'm in a hotel on my own in Sydney.

There's no one else to blame but myself.

But yeah, it was interesting.

I was looking at lots of Newcastle fans and other fans going, I feel sick with that penalty decision.

And I was thinking, compared to actually being sick, it isn't that bad.

What happened to Tino Liveramento?

My relative feelings of this is really bleak.

And there is, you know, sometimes you'd stand back and you take a look at yourself and you're completely naked and

there is a pool of vomit in the shower

covering your own excrement and you think, you know, it's a humbling experience, put it that way.

Anyway,

hopefully that was that.

I'll update you tomorrow on the pod to see how we go.

So, yeah, thanks for your question, Neil.

And that'll do for today.

Thanks, Philippe.

Thank you very much, Max.

I need the breath over there.

Yeah, thank you, Nikki.

No, thanks, Daniel, for that question.

None at all.

I'm really sorry.

I'm sorry about that.

Cheers, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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