Arsenal go top and a tribute to Terry Venables – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

A brilliant game at the lane.

The kind of attacking football LTEL would have loved, if not the result.

A thousand offside goals for Spurs.

Turns out Villa's high line is the best one.

Will, of course, pay tribute to the man who gave us Euro 96.

Meanwhile, as we suggested, Chelsea had turned a corner and threadbear Newcastle were running out of steam until Chelsea reversed back round the corner as St.

James's Park made the kind of noise the Eti had really didn't.

City won Liverpool one in the title decided, despite neither side now being top of the league.

It seemed a little dreary.

Perhaps we should join Jürgen Klopp's protests at 12.30 kickoffs.

That was a good goal, wasn't it, Barry?

Alejandro Garnacho outrooney's Rooney, sprinting back for that overhead that even got Trevor Sinclair slightly nervous.

Then there's Luton winning the Troy Townsend Junior, Senior, Junior Derby.

Arsenal going top after Aaron Ramsdale remembered how to play football.

Last minute agony for Burnley and just some more agony agony for Sheffield United.

As always, we'll answer your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Hello, Max.

Hello, John Bruin.

Hello, Max.

And hello, Troy Townsend.

Hi, Max.

Let's start then.

Difficult to know which game to start with.

There were lots of good ones,

perhaps no standout one.

But given the Terry Venables news, we'll start at the Tottenham Hot Spurs Stadium.

Mike says, after three defeats on the spin for Spurs, is this the worst title defense ever seen?

Gavin says, if the Spurs slump continues and the Johnny Lou Ange prophecy comes to pass, which vibes man will Spurs go for next?

Bez, he asks.

I mean, they could have been buried 5-0 or maybe 5-2 up after about 20 minutes.

Every time I looked up, Kyungmin's son had scored.

It was ruled out for off-site.

And yet Aston Villa won.

Yeah, I mean, I thought this was the standout game of the weekend by a considerable distance.

And as someone with

no dog in the fight, I found it tremendously entertaining.

And

I suppose if you're looking at from a Tottenham perspective, which Aston Villa fans will be annoyed that I'm doing that, but you can look at it either of two ways.

You can say that

considering the number of high-profile key players they had missing, they gave it a right good go

and played tremendously well and with better finishing.

probably should have won.

And then you can also look at it the perspective that they went ahead, but continued to play kamikaze attacking football with a team that went out with four full backs in the back four, a centre, a no-defensive midfielder, and a centre-back and a defensive midfielder on the bench, one of whom eventually came on after Rodrigo Bentencourt had to go off because of that Matty Cash tackle.

So If I was a Spurs fan, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that performance, but we have two here, so I'll be interested to hear your perspective.

I think I'd be quite pleased with it, even though they lost from a winning position for the third game in a row and made life unnecessarily difficult for themselves.

But it was a brilliant game of football.

They did okay.

Probably a little unlucky to lose, but poor finishing has been costing them, and they missed a heck of a lot of chances here.

Destiny Udogi, Kulasevsky, Brian hill brennan johnson twice son twice all missed good chances and then they'd uh 17 goals ruled out for fractional offsides that you know on they were

very little in it very tight yeah i i think if i was a spurs fan i'd be pleased with that performance even in defeat but uh

I can understand why some might be gnashing their teeth.

The thing is, I think Angelostakoglu, they went ahead against Wolves last time out, sat back, defended the lead, and that didn't work.

And that sort of goes against everything Ange is about.

So I think this time they went ahead and they went, let's just get more goals.

And Villa took advantage of the fact that they didn't have any centre-backs, didn't have a defensive midfielder, and came back to beat them.

Troy, are you gnashing your teeth or are you pleased?

I'm pleased that it was a good game of football.

Two top, top managers going against each other and i think you've got to give praise to villa here because

they were off the pace first half despite obviously an offside goal for villa straight after spurs had scored um and then obviously that pal torres header right on um right on time they were off the pace and you've got to hand it to emery because he knew they were off the pace and he took off um matty cash who to be fair was was angling for a red card i don't know what was wrong with him yesterday i didn't like the tackle on Bentonker.

Not the best, particularly someone that has suffered a long-term injury and maybe could have gone for a couple of niggly ones after that.

He took him off.

He took the RB off, who was ineffective.

He's been really, really good this season.

But the changes were positive and the changes put Villa on the front foot.

And I think they took Spurs by surprise.

Tillerman's set up the goal for Ollie Watkins, very similar goal to one we'll speak about a little bit later on.

And Bailey was a threat as well.

So I think you've got to hand it to the way that Emory turned it around.

Spurs were unfortunate, but no one's going to remember being unfortunate in three games on the spin and

throwing away a goal lead and being on the front foot.

And I like Ange, but maybe there comes a time where, particularly after two defeats, that you kind of go, we need to get a result out of today's game.

And Villera no Mugs.

Listen, I thought Omar Emery did very, very well in the way that he changed it.

And,

you know, in the end, they deserve the win despite all those Spurs opportunities.

Prior to this game, John, since Una Emery took over, Aston Villa have caught teams offside 163 times.

And in second place, is Liverpool with 93.

So is that just great skill?

Like, all these goals when, you know, Tottenham are thinking, oh, God, we could have just put, you know, a toe here, you know, or a shoulder there, you know, we'd be 2-0 up or 3-0 up.

Actually, this is just Aston Villa doing what they're good at.

Yeah, that frequency suggests that Uni Emery is the new George Graham.

And maybe it could have worked out for him at Arsenal after all.

Older viewers will recognise that one.

Yeah,

well, I mean,

the things that Troy talks about there is Uni Emery is

it's in-game management, isn't it, that he's recognised for

the quality of manager that he is.

It felt to me as if Ann's just pushed the accelerator, kept it on, and

watching that game, towards the end of that game, Spurs players were absolutely on their feet.

They were tired.

And that's what will happen if you play at that speed of

or attack a game with that amount of ambition to kill the game so early.

And if the chances don't go in,

then that gives the opposition chance.

And if you don't play centre-halves,

then someone like Poe Torres, who's a very good header of the ball, is going to score a ball that is smashed into the box.

He'd already done it before, and yet he was able to do it again for the goal.

It's a brilliant free kick, though, isn't it?

That delivery is amazing.

It was fantastic.

But you know, they've practiced it a hundred and a hundred thousand times over.

And they know that as soon as Emory sees the team sheet, he's like, Well, okay, we're going to do that routine if we can.

And

again, this probably, you know, Spurs are struggling for players.

But Tielemans, who's a player who, let's say, he's not exactly been a hit so far at Aston Villa, but is a very, very skillful player.

They bring a player on.

He supplies the goal for Ollie Watkins.

And in Ollie Watkins, you've got a player playing the best football of his career.

So Tottenham...

Listen, the Ange thing is he's almost now the ideal Tottenham manager.

This is what Tottenham have wanted when they had Conte, even when they had Potch, you know, they wanted someone

who was Devil May Care, who did play like Keith Birkinshaw or something like that.

And that's what they've got.

And

but you do wonder in the year 2023 how long that of just, my, that's just the way we're going to play is gonna,

you wonder how long that is gonna wash with certain Spurs fans.

I get the feeling you two are on board with it still, and that's good.

I'm on board with it still, because you know when Spurs are on TV, it's going to be a good game.

And Spur

that's how Spurs were.

They were the entertaining team.

When Elton Wellsby put them on the, you know, in the eight season,

you're really wheeling out the old Griffiths.

We're just

Wellsby, Birkenshaw, Graham.

This is it, you see.

I mean, well, we're just about to get to, well, we're doing more of that in a bit, Barry.

But this is,

I

like the new Spurs as the old Spurs.

I'm not sure it's a formula for success, but it's fun.

And that's what I watch football for.

Yeah, it's vibes.

It's vibes, isn't it?

Man City away next.

That's right.

Yeah, there'll be some vibes there, that's for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's just the way we play, mate.

Sod it.

Sod it.

Here we go.

I mean, I looked at that starting lineup and I couldn't work it.

I was, I looked at it.

I was like, I can't see any.

I can't see a centre.

I can't see any of their winning centre-backs.

But I was like, what's he do?

I think he might play a centre-back next week.

Yeah, he might.

He might.

Sam says, are Aston Villa title contenders?

Of course they are.

But, you know, they are fourth.

Barry, two points off the top.

Yes, Troy, you're remembering they're my fourth-placed team.

Oh, yeah.

Remember that?

Yeah, when everyone laughed at me.

Okay, well done.

What's their ceiling?

So you think, I mean, what do you reckon, Baz?

You You have to take them seriously now, don't you?

You don't have to.

I suppose you do because they are improving all the time under Emery.

I don't think they'll win the title.

But their next three games are Bournemouth away, City, and Arsenal at home.

So

come back to me in three weeks, and I'll tell you whether or not they're title contenders.

Okay.

Somebody put a note in the front because I'll forget.

Well, if they win all three of those games, I won't forget.

Okay.

um

uh let's talk about terry venables uh tributes to paid before kickoff uh at the total hotspur stadium he's passed away at the age of 80 he'd been uh ill for for some time um i thought the journalist ian king kind of summed it up saying spurs fans will be thinking of 91 qpr of 82 or 83 england of 96 palace of 79 barcelona of 86 and actually on that sort of vibes idea we had this email from peter who said hello there i've been thinking about your discussion regarding vibes and how it might relate to the great Terry Venimals.

It seemed to me that his tenure as England manager wasn't actually all that great in terms of performances and results, but he did make us feel great.

England were not that good at all for large parts of Euro 96.

They played five games, were pretty lackluster for three of them against Switzerland, Scotland, and Spain.

They were obviously good against the Netherlands, but they weren't actually that brilliant.

It's worth watching the game again.

Netherland outscored England on XG.

I'm glad someone's gone back to Euro 96 to do the XG on games that didn't have XG.

They were also very lucky.

McAllister's missed penalty, a Spanish goal that was wrongly disallowed for our side, a Germany goal wrongly disallowed.

It's worth remembering that in those days, you got to the semis after just one knockout tie, and yet it all somehow felt great.

And that actually matters too, because Venables gave us an experience that has stayed with us for decades.

There was an extraordinary amount of memorable moments in just those five games.

Southgate said Venables made people feel special.

He certainly made England feel pretty special for those few weeks in 96.

And for that, we owe him a debt of gratitude.

Cheers, Peter.

And he's right, isn't he, John?

Like,

he did make us feel great.

We look back so, I mean, nostalgia is a huge part of being a football fan, but was, and, and for people of our generation, right, and I'm aware we've got older and younger listeners, but for anyone sort of from mid-30s to late 40s, that was just absolutely seminal tournament.

It was, and let us remember that during the pandemic, what was on constantly was, you know, TV broadcasters trying to make people feel happy.

Well, Euro 96 was on permanent rotation because it because for the sort of Generation X it was that key moment and I think chatting to some younger colleagues yesterday I don't think they quite realized what a

and that's understandable they went around what an

everyman figure Terry Benimos was for a generation and I'm sorry Barry I'm going to go back to the St.

and Greasy days here because

It felt like Terry was the sort of uncle over in Spain doing well for himself.

because that was your portal into football wasn't it that sort of half hour on a Saturday it's oh let's go and see how Terry's getting on it was always Terry never Terry Venables you know he was by his first name and he did this yeah he was the manager that sold Diego Maradona and won the league in Spain with Steve Archibald you know it's and

he got to the you know European Cup I don't need to run through Terry's history everyone knows what he achieved but then he was also the guy that uh him because Jimmy Hill was the arch conservative on the in the match of the day

punditry team, and Terry was the great innovator.

But you'd see Terry and you'd think,

there's a guy who, if you stood next to him,

you could almost smell the mix of champagne and cologne.

He had the paunch of someone that lived his life well.

And as well as being this football guy that was all over football, new football, he tried to live other lives.

Now, obviously, that was problematic in certain senses, and stopped his football career becoming what it might have been.

But what he did just about everywhere until the later part of his career, if you think about Paul Gascoigne, you know, the player that our generation would look to as the best player that we've seen as an Englishman, who made him play his best football?

That was Terry Venables at Spurs that 1991 season.

And he just had that ability to make players believe in themselves.

And in that Euro 96 tournament, England played for the first time, and perhaps the only time, like a continental team, because Terry Bennables took lessons from the IAC system from across Europe and made a team adaptable.

And, you know, Gary Neville talked, didn't he, about all the different positions he played during one tournament.

And

as a football man, there were very few people like Terry Bennables.

It's very sad to see him no longer around.

And that's true, Troy, isn't it?

That he...

I don't know if it's an oversimplification to say English football pre-LTEL was 4-4-2, get it launched.

And, you know,

there are a couple of people on this panel who like that kind of thing.

But, you know,

so I don't know if he was a revolutionary.

I don't know if that's perhaps too far, but he was certainly incredibly tactically astute.

You know, and...

as every if you've read any of the obituaries about him every playout just loved him yeah i think, look, you have to almost, you know, that revolutionary term, you may have to use it because he changed football

in a way that many had tried to, but hadn't done in the past.

You know, going out to Barcelona was no mean feat considering they hadn't won the title for some 10 plus years.

Taking Stevie Archibald out there and making him become a hero is no mean feat either.

But dealing with that England situation, I think the England situation, yeah, he didn't have a great record at England, but for those four or five weeks, what it was of those Euros, and John has quite rightly said, everyone fell back in love with their nation.

And remember, they had a tricky entry into the Euros with the old going out drinking and the bar stuff.

But he elevated players.

The way that Shearer, Lineker, Gary Neville, Darren Anderton, I don't know if you heard Darren Anderton yesterday, but the way that they spoke about him just as a human being, you know, someone that cared, generally cared about them.

Shira wasn't having a good time for England.

And, you know, Eltel, L Tel, there I am calling him L Tel, by the way,

you know, strolled in and said, you're going to be my number nine, you know, no matter how many goals, you know, if you don't score for the next five, six, seven games.

And Shira said, you know, that gave him the confidence to go into that Euros, believing that he was the best number nine in Europe.

Darren Anderton, getting booed at Spurs and getting taken off in in a game and

he ignored the game, went down to the changing room and said to Darren, I didn't even buy you for this season.

I bought you for next season.

So everything you do this season is a bonus.

So every time you go out on the pitch, just take it as a bonus.

So the way that he handled, we hadn't heard those stories before.

So the way that he handled those situations, as well as then becoming this top tactical coach who, you know, when you hear the likes of Gary Neville, said he'd never seen it before and who he'd worked under, you know, that is an amazing plaudit.

And also remember for that Euros that it was already decided that he was not going to continue in that role.

And Glenn Hoddle was coming in.

And sometimes as a manager, you can almost just pie that off, can't you?

Well, I'm not really going to worry about this.

But he wanted to bring that trophy home because he knew that his status

was going to be at such a high.

And it's, yeah, it's a real shame that they couldn't thanks to the current England manager.

But hey, it's one of those things, wasn't it?

When Troy was mentioning the dentist's chair, Baz, you know, we were on the radio yesterday when the news broke.

And a couple of things that really stuck out to me was one was Danny Kelly coming on, spoke brilliantly about him, but said, you know, he was the first player he saw that always had a suntan.

You know, all these old 60s cloggers were all balding and just buck toothed and all this.

And here was this debonair guy.

And the other was Gary Mabbot, who said, you know, even after defeats, he'd take them to a nightclub.

So he probably wasn't that bothered about the dentist's chair, was he?

Yeah, I mean, he just seemed like a guy who'd be great company on a night out.

Uh, you know, good stories,

lots of champagne.

He was quite popular in Ireland.

Like, in Ireland, everyone kind of liked Terry.

Barisa Jim Arpali, he texted me yesterday and described him as the very likable manager of a very unlikable team in that England

Euro 96 team.

and I think it's important to remember that

around the time of Euro ninety six English football wasn't in a very good place

and I think a lot of the games of that tournament not England games but a lot of other games

featuring you know not Scotland not England were pre pretty poorly attended whereas now they wouldn't you know every stadium would be packed for every game no matter who was playing and I think the success such such as it was, of that England team, did a lot to make football more popular or repopularise football in this country.

Hmm.

And that 4-1.

I remember going to Parker's Peace, which is a big square expanse of grass in Cambridge, and playing like a just taking a ball down after the Netherlands game, and it was still sort of dusk, and it ended up about 80 aside.

I just absolutely shit-faced people, so delighted at that result.

And then then the penalties, after the penalties against Germany, I think the BBC played walk away by cast and just sitting there bereft thinking that we couldn't not win this tournament.

That moment, though, when the photo's been in every paper, of Gareth Southgate's missed the penalty, and Terry Reynolds goes over to...

And Venables has got this smile of all this, like, almost like, hey, it doesn't matter.

You know, like, because...

He did have this attitude of as much as he loved football and he wanted to win, there was this sort of, it's not everything, you know.

And you could, I mean, Southgate, obviously, we'll have it, we'll have plenty to say on that, but I did think that moment was,

there was a levity to Terry Vennibles that you don't often find in football, especially these days, apart from your good friend Ange,

because that's just the way we play, mate.

Yeah, it's all about good vibes, and Ltel gave us that.

May he rest in peace.

We'll be back in a sec.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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But there's something new and exciting.

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a proper football journalist exactly too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out this paper tablet doesn't it'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you it has a display that looks feels and even sounds like paper.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's go to St.

James's Park, Newcastle 4, Chelsea 1.

Nathan says, Is it possible that Chelsea are turning a corner?

But they're doing it like Clark Griswold in National Lampoons.

This is another reference for the kids.

National Lampoons, European vacation circling the roundabout, going nowhere.

Look, kids, Big Ben, Parliament.

Ryan, thank you for this, Ryan.

Given that they lost 4-1 to a team who during the the 90-minute field, they'd a 17-year-old Lewis Miley, 19-year-old Michael Diweni, 19-year-old Alex Murphy, 20-year-old Amu Diallo, and a 34-year-old Matt Ritchie.

Should Chelsea have strengthened in the summer transfer window?

Yes, the gag still works.

There is something, Troy, about St.

James's Park and momentum that can blow teams away.

And I certainly need to stop writing them off.

It's raucous again, wasn't it?

There's something, I mean, the applaudits Eddie Howe has received a well-deserved.

And this is a team that's also, you've named those young players and obviously Matt Ritchie at the other end.

And they're also, you know, in the midst of an injury crisis that has impacted them.

But playing at home there has given them a massive lift.

And

listen, I honestly thought with the way Chelsea have been going just recently, the turnaround, that they'd win this one.

Newcastle came to the fore and that young Lewis Miley, someone that's been spoken about quite a bit and someone who

had a really good summer, it was earmarked for some games.

I don't think he was earmarked for some games so quick, but the opening goal was all about his threaded pass through to Isaac, and it was a beautiful pass through the eye of a needle.

And Isak dispatched it in the manner that it deserved, else, no one would be able to talk about it.

And I suppose from there, that gave Newcastle the belief with the players in the team that they could go on and finish it off.

Now, I'm not quite sure.

Chelsea contributed quite a bit to this Newcastle win obviously I mean Tiago Silver who I championed quite a bit not just because of his age but because of his quality turned oh that John's giving me the old yeah give it a rest time but um no no I'm saying I'm saying I'm saying Tiago it's it was sad actually yeah I share I've always liked him as a player but it that was painful to watch wasn't it well there was a bit in the first half where he tried to do a sort of little spin and fell over and I was like well that's the worst part of this game for him but then actually when he did that back pass he kicked it about as hard as Ian Rushton can kick a ball it was like he suddenly turned into a kitten there was nothing he could do you can tell there was obviously things going through his mind about what he wanted to do with the ball and that moment where you

you know what you want to do with it like the the trip in the first half when he miskicked it in the first half and I don't know.

I felt for him.

It's one of those.

I felt for him because I do like him as a footballer.

And then you look at their skipper and what he'd done, you know, two incredibly silly yellow cards.

And, you know, if you're going to take the armband, you've got to act like a captain.

And I think he's let his team down massively there.

But Newcastle were very, very good.

The goals they scored were good as well.

And yeah, I think

he'll be pleased with that, anyhow, because it was a tricky fixture.

But the crowd does drive that team on, you know, and it was an excellent result to them.

Louis May looks about eight, doesn't he?

Just not a blemish on that young face he was born on the 1st of May 2006 I know he's always what was number one crazy by Niles Barkley was number one I mean that to me is still quite a modern song like oh I'm like oh no that this is bleak they played that song at my 30th birthday I remember that

so

that that makes me feel very old yeah yeah I mean Baz you like me thought Chelsea would win this game I did yeah and they played okay in the first half and then then the second half collapse was

just spectacular.

They're really struggling for consistency.

I think they they drew with Liverpool, then lost against West Ham, they drew with Arsenal, then lost at home to Brentford, drew with City,

and now they got

thumped by Newcastle.

You know, it's any time they look like they're getting going, they they automatically suffer a setback.

And Pocatino was understandably furious after the game.

And I think for the first time, got stuck into his players.

Like, he used the royal we, you know, we, as in it's the whole collective.

But I think there was a lot of finger pointing going on.

And he was sort of absolving himself from any blame.

Yeah,

it's something that's been raised on the podcast before, that just the lack of experience in the team.

And then when you have two of the more experienced players, one of them getting a daft red card and the other, you know,

playing like he's never actually set foot on a football pitch before, that doesn't help.

It doesn't.

Let's go to the Etihad Man City one, Liverpool one.

Producer Joel wrote a good game between two really good teams.

Now, I was watching this game while

I was watching this game while...

queuing to drop my bags at a budget airline check-in because my connecting flight was cancelled after 16 hours in the air.

So I might not have been in the right mood for this game, but I thought it was rubbish, John.

Yeah, I watched it, well, the second half

at Kennelworth Road, and let's just say the press room was not wrapped by this

grand slam fixture.

It just wasn't really happening, was it?

Both out-tacticking each other.

Okay,

what are the major points of the game?

Allison's goal kick.

Oh dear.

He wouldn't have made it into one of those montages of goal kicks that you get on the internet, would you?

Who's the guy that does those?

Oh, Brian's gun, yeah, excellent.

He wouldn't have made it into Brian's gun, no.

And then he's I don't think it was particularly convincing when Harlan shots along the floor either.

That was all his mistake.

Great goal by Trent Alexander Arnold.

Let's credit him with that.

Still not sure he's a midfielder.

It was just...

I think this is, there comes a point when those two teams have been they had that white-hot rivalry.

It probably still exists in a certain sense.

I think both teams were just happy to get that out of the way, move on, let's win the other games, and we'll pick it up from there.

Liverpool obviously needed to win that

to keep in the

title race, but I think they really needed to, you know, that needs to be a statement win for them.

They didn't get it.

Didn't really look like getting it either.

Do you think, I think, I don't know.

I think them, you know, because City had won, what, 23 in a row?

And if that, that, that,

yeah, well, they protected Jonathan Wilson's modesty with some, you know, some Sunderland manager of the 15th century or whatever it was.

It was, yeah, yeah.

Bede.

Bede was managing them.

When

this happens.

John says that while it's understandable that Man City players were tired from the international break, what was their fans' excuse?

I mean, they were really

loud, Stadium, Troy but like do you think it's a 1230 thing or a city thing or a bit of both like like 12 I'm too lazy to check all the 1230 kickoffs but they're not as good they're just not as they're just not as good are they I think it was ruined as a spectacle because of the kickoff time I'm not going to say that's the only thing but I could imagine that game at 430 on a Sunday and it has more energy in it and it has more

I don't know it's more pumped up because it's it was as low-key as a top two game as you could find.

And it was very unlike the two of them.

And when you're not, I mean, we just spoke about Newcastle, didn't we?

We spoke about how their fans drive them on, and the energy around St.

James's Park is unbelievable.

Well,

Saturday, as far as I was concerned, was a damp squid, and so were the fans.

And

I heard some, there was a phone in, wasn't there?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say the channel.

So there was this phone.

Can I just know?

Can I just stop you?

Did you say a damp squid?

I don't know, did I?

I can't remember.

I can't remember.

Let's think you went.

I mean, either is bad.

Nobody wants a damp squid for dinner, do they?

Anyway,

back to 606, I think it's probably not.

Was it 606, right?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I can't remember, but there was this city fan that was absolutely going in on Pep for saying that the fans were not.

Yes, he was going in on Pep for saying that the fans

didn't turn up and he needed more noise.

And as far as he was concerned, it was the manager and his players, and they were

terrible on the day.

And they need to give the fans something to sing about and something to shout about.

So he looked like a treble.

Well, yeah, that might just do it.

Yeah, that might just do it.

But he went off key and it was quite funny to listen to.

But do you think, sorry, Troy, do you think it is, you know, expectation is everything here, right?

The Newcastle fans are still on this journey.

They're not won anything yet, right?

You know, and it might come in 10 years that Newcastle fans turn up and go, oh, we've won another trophy, who cares?

Like, City are in that space now.

I'm going to speak out in, not in defence of Manchester City fans, but I'm going to say I've seen this behaviour before, and it was at Manchester United back in the early 2000s.

Once the treble journey had been completed, you went to a 3pm kick-off against Derby County or you name it.

The atmosphere used to be terrible then.

And I think Liverpool fans would probably tell you the same,

you know, post their great feats of the 80s is that there comes a point when your team is so good that you're actually asking to be entertained and i think maybe city fans are at that point they've been through the whole gamut of the journey and out the other side and they're actually at this point which actually people will laugh about this but if you support a team that's used to winning all the time winning actually doesn't become this point of celebration like newcastle have got this sort of you know we've beaten chelsea what a brilliant day everyone out on the tune it's like it's almost like a sense of relief ah we won the title this year that's a relief well it's a totally different it's a different don't don't know what that feels like John no well Troy no I'm sorry but much much like the uh much like the much like the FSA awards which I nervously bring up because

Gary Linicka's probably got it in the bag this year um

but and so you must be weird for the sort of older city fans who remember Main Road

I think they'll be like that too now I I mean,

success just makes it turns grounds into that.

It becomes like almost like a theme park of like, you go to watch the team win.

Let's go to Goodison.

Not a ground where the fans expect to win.

No.

And they didn't.

Leo says, could we replace all post-match analysis with a reel of the best overhead kicks scored in the Premier League?

I'm for this.

Jim, Sinclair Spectrum rating required.

I gave it an 8.9.

Well, I mean, it's not me.

It's obviously just what is announced.

Charlie, just asked Barry if he could have scored scored it.

Yes, a ludicrous number of that was a good goal, wasn't it, Barry?

And Chris says, Has Garnacho sealed goal of the season, or does Ethan Pinnock still have something in his locker?

I mean, it's such a brilliant overhead kick, Barry, isn't it?

And it's

almost came too early.

Not ready for a goal of this quality, this early in the game.

Yeah, I mean, I think Michael Elise

probably had a contender for goal of the season 24 hours previously.

And

up pops Aleandra Garnacho with that spectacularly acrobatic overhead kick.

It was a good team goal and it was an excellent individual goal all wrapped in one.

I think Victor Lindelof played a great crossfield diagonal to Rashford who put Dallow in behind with the weighted pass across to Garnacho and you know he had to work to get under the ball in the right position and then

just into the top corner, not straight diagonal pick for a dive didn't get near it.

And it's just a sensational goal.

He knew it.

All his teammates knew it.

Everyone in Goodison knew it.

I think, I mean, I know Everton fans are not in a mood for magnanimity and celebrating things.

But I think if I was an Everton fan and I was behind that goal,

I would have spontaneously have just applauded that strike, even though it was against my team.

I think if I was an Everton player,

I was wondering, do you know, would it be, how would you know?

Would, you know, would you be forced to, you know, you'd be instantly sold, you know, if you were James Tarkovsky and we're like, do you want fair play?

Because I'm playing five aside if the Oppo do something good.

I do say, oh, no, that was good.

But it was poetry.

And actually, Barry made the point, Troy,

he has to do like a five-yard beer-the-bang Linford Christie sprint to get to the ball before he can even begin the process of scoring an overhead kick.

That's a bit dramatic, Max, but I know what you mean.

Okay.

No, listen, the way he...

Who do you want?

I'm trying to think.

I'm running out of sprinters.

The sprint from deserved

talk about that later on.

It could be a deserved sprint.

Huey Teep.

Huey Teep.

There we go.

A Huey Teap-type sprint.

Listen.

The cross,

Huey Teep, QET.

Always in lane one.

He's always in lane one.

I love trying to get back on track, and you two are just.

Here we go, Troy.

Come on.

Come on, Troy.

Focus.

I mean, the cross from it's just a decent cross into the box.

You know, it's not aimed at anybody, it's a cross where you want someone to get on the end of it.

And

the movement from Garnacho, the couple of steps back to set himself to do what he did.

I mean, there was this big debate yesterday, wasn't there?

I don't know.

We always do this, don't we, in football?

You know, what's the next best one?

Well, it was Rooney.

Well, what was the context of Rooney's goal?

We never seemed to just enjoy the moment and allow it to just sit alone by itself.

It was an incredible strike.

He said he didn't know that it went in until he heard the fans.

I watched Garnacho.

He was watching it all the way.

He wanted to know.

He hit a sweet connection and he wanted to know where it ended up.

And it was perfection.

And you described it, Max, the pass from Lindelof, which I don't know where that came from, by the way, but that was, I mean, how much space and time that he had, how much space and time rashford had you know everton should have been pumped up right at the beginning of the game and their fans were definitely trying to make them pumped up but the space that all those players had to to to kind of connect the dots that ended up with garnacho in space doing what he did was just was just unbelievable and i think if it was another type of goal

it wouldn't have deflated the stadium because the stadium was up wasn't it i think if it was another type of goal it wouldn't have deflated the stadium the way that it is but that the way that it did.

But that early,

that quality, that precision, and you know, the stadium was flat very, very early doors.

It picked up again, but wow, Balnacho has threatened brilliant so much in his short career.

He won't better that.

He won't better that.

And he's got a long way to go.

That's it.

Retirement.

Just end your career now.

There's nothing you can do.

Tom says, who should Cobby Minu sit next to when he gets on that plane?

Had a good game, John, didn't he?

And I confess, was not aware of this human being until yesterday.

He played very well on the preseason tour, and those that follow Manchester United's representative teams have been championing him for quite a long time.

Unfortunately, he got an injury out in America, and

they've been waiting a long time to see him.

And I hadn't seen him play before, and

he was hugely impressive, wasn't he?

Played with real confidence.

obviously, that clearance off the line was vital.

And um,

Manchester United have

cried out for that player.

Um, everyone's getting a bit excited about, you know, he's the player Pog could have been all this type of stuff and all that type of stuff.

Um, there is a there is a story out there that uh Big Sir Jim Ratcliffe is gonna bin off Casemiro because of Mainu.

We're already going that silly, but uh, let's set aside all that.

That's about as short a debut as you could see really, wasn't it?

Can I mention Everton?

Because they were playing.

Please do.

Pretty disappointing, weren't they?

Really?

Ashley Young,

let's categorise him with Thiago Silver as, listen, mate, I'd love the fact you're still out there, but...

And I do like Ashley Young as a player.

It wasn't happening for him.

I thought Sean Deish's defense of that penalty incident was among the most ridiculous

ref stuff I've ever seen in my life.

What did he say?

Well, he was saying, you know, oh, well, in these days, you know, those will be given, won't they?

You know, you know, it's like this VAR nonsense.

It's like, well, the referee made a mistake in booking a player

when there was a clear foul there.

And it was a penalty all day long.

It was a terrible decision by John Brooks.

And Deish is talking as if there's been this great injustice carried out.

And I wrote in the talking points piece that we did for

Monday:

Everton have got this injustice that they feel they've suffered, and let's not go into that.

But you can't play a game where you think everything is going to go against you.

And that appeared to be the attitude of the crowd, of the manager, of the team, of that every decision goes against them.

Boo, boo, boo.

Come on.

You've got to be more positive about that.

I mean, they are good at booing.

Let's be there.

So, you know, I mean,

I don't think they, for a game that, you know, you use the siege mentality, they didn't use the siege mentality as a positive.

Because United could have gone into that game frightened of what they were going to expect from Everton.

And it didn't show up.

It wasn't there.

Yeah.

Thousands of Everton fans held up signs with the Premier League slogo and corrupt written on them.

And there were, as John pointed out, really loud booze during the Premier League anthem, which isn't a great anthem.

That's terrible.

Face it.

Really bad.

Yeah.

But, you know, like you, Barry, I mean, in the same sense that I was definitely thought Chelsea would beat Newcastle, I thought Everton would win.

And I've been saying, oh, Everton will be fine.

This is a great year to get a 10-point deduction.

And now I'm, you know, I know it's only one game.

I'm suddenly like, oh, maybe it's not a great season to have a 10-point deduction.

Well, I don't think any season's a good season to have a 10-point deduction.

It may be reduced.

It is a harsh punishment, but them is the breaks.

They broke the rules.

The one thing I'd say they can take from it, they played quite well in the first half, even after that gut punch from Garinacho, and were the better team at halftime going in.

And then Young gives away that really daft penalty.

And I couldn't agree more with John about Daishes.

trying to claim it was in some way an egregious decision because it wasn't.

That was it, you know, game over.

So,

yeah, but they did okay in the first half until they gave away that penalty.

Can we just note that Martial was smiling during the game and had a big grin on his face?

Which, so, if you note that day, brilliant finish, finish was excellent, finish was first class.

Yeah,

absolutely wonderful.

I was surprised it was him, but he's he scores lots of goals against Everton, Everton, um, and and and nobody else.

Um, but yeah, well done.

Him, um, Arsla, top of the league, Kai Havertz in the last minute.

Uh, great moment for him.

And I guess you have to grind these results out, don't you,

if you want to stay the course.

I mean, the big story from this was Aaron Ramsdale playing Bazin.

And, you know, for the first 15 minutes, it looked like he had a touch of the Tiago Silvers, like he'd completely forgotten how to play football.

And that was quite funny.

One imagines he's understandably nervous because he doesn't get many opportunities because he's been relegated to number two in the pecking order.

and he's been relegated some say unfairly uh i don't really know whether he who's better between him and raya but um yeah he he didn't play brilliantly there at all uh and won't have given our teta much to think about um even though he kept a clean sheet you know that was not through anything wonderful he did but uh

yeah so him and kai haverts finally making a major contribution to Arsenal's season, I suppose, are the two stories come out of this not particularly good game.

It was interesting, John, after the game when Arteta was asked about Aaron Ramsdale, he didn't.

He sort of said, I'm just really pleased we got a clean sheet and our defence was excellent.

Like he sort of couldn't even name him because he's wronged him so badly.

It was just sort of slightly odd.

Yeah,

Arteta can be like that.

I think it's fair to say.

He likes the questions to be the questions he likes.

He's obviously nailed his colours to the mass with Raya.

And

I saw someone say this.

I think that's good advice.

Ramsdale in January will presumably get a move and will be a good goalkeeper for somebody else.

And he should look at it that way.

Yeah.

And look, we have to say, like, this Premier League season is actually looking really exciting at the top, Troy.

And

full credit to Arsenal, who perhaps haven't been brilliant so far this season and yet are top of the league.

Just got to find ways to win, haven't you?

When you're not playing well, when you're not far in and all cylinders,

when

the game seems to be petering out, you've just got to find a way to win.

And again, the best thing in the game was the creation of the Arsenal goal.

The movement was good.

They were very patient.

It gets to Saka.

He delivers a delicious ball to the backstick.

And if you're not going to put that away, then you don't deserve to be where you are.

So, you know, they they haven't been brilliant they've got a few injuries as well everyone's you know dealing with this injury situation and i suppose as we get closer to the big run of of games over the christmas period and then into january getting over the line is the most important thing and it doesn't matter how so he will be very pleased about that because they were resilient they

you know they had one chalked off early on they've got the goalkeeper who's not sure of himself in a matter i think our tetra has put both of them in a very very difficult situation where they're both not sure of each, of themselves when they're playing.

But he's obviously, like we've said, gone that Ray is going to be my number one.

But listen,

1-0, 1-0 to the Arsenal.

We're back to that.

Great finish, great delivery, patient game.

Got what they got out of it.

I'm sure Brentford will be very disappointed.

They probably feel they deserve something, but the win goes to Arsenal.

Yeah, right.

That'll do for part two.

Part three.

Four more games to rattle through.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

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welcome to part three of the guardian football weekly uh to kenilworth road then uh john you were there troy were you there i was indeed There we go.

We really wanted to get this totally covered.

Barry, why weren't you there?

We weren't thinking this through when we booked this panel.

I'm still thawing out from the last time I was at Kennelworth Road when Luton were playing non-league football.

I'm still thawing out now, I have to say.

Presumably, Troy was in a prawn sandwich box.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you've been to Luton.

I have been to Luther.

There's not many prawn sandwich boxes, but yeah.

No, is there a chicken feet box?

There must be a chicken feet box, I presume.

A brilliant result for luton troy an amazing result for luton and one that they they had to take you know they have got a couple of games coming they've still got man city arsenal and chelsea before christmas so you've got to look at games where you think this is an opportunity to take three points and obviously their first home win and and

It was a very Luton-type game, if you don't mind me saying.

And obviously, I haven't seen many, but from the four or five that I've now watched, Discipline Early Doors, although they've got to thank their goalkeeper Kaminski for a double save one from Mese which was a little bit easier he pushed it out and slot followed up and then a one-handed save uh left-hand side amazing um

and then what they do is is he really goes for it 60 65 minutes he he really goes for it and he is almost like this this mentality we can turn it on a little bit now

and they get their goal from Menger former Man United player, and then they concede this wonder goal.

And John, you're going to have to describe it.

I've seen it on TV.

I saw the early bit with the turn from Elise, and then you don't get to see anything else down that touchline.

Um, and then I see a ball getting whipped into the top corner, and I don't know if it's Elise or not, so I don't know what went on, but it was an excellent goal a minute afterwards.

Andros giving his dad restricted view tickets.

That was outrageous.

I've got news for you, Troy.

We must have been sat near each other because my view was really more restricted than that.

I saw Olise receive the ball, almost straight from kickoff, wasn't it?

And then he sets off and then the ball's in the net because

it was just, I mean, and obviously we have a replay in the

a very,

although the,

and I'm not going to do down a looting table with this, but the TV screens are like you have the contrast up in about 1987 or something like that.

So it wasn't quite when you turn them off at the end, does it all go down into a dick

to the middle?

But

it was a fantastic goal, a player who is so, so talented.

And I've been looking, I've seen him score quite a few goals.

The only thing I would say about him is it doesn't happen enough.

He doesn't get involved enough compared to Eze, who, when he went off, the game changed a little bit, didn't it?

Yeah,

yeah.

I know it's actually true.

I don't know if I could say this.

Luton took off a player and brought on a guy that scored a goal.

Who was that?

He's only got 60 minutes in his tank, apparently.

Andros played well before that.

Him and Ross Barkley looked the players capable of knitting it together.

And then

after that, yeah, as you said, Rob Edwards was like, put the throttle on with

fresher legs, shall we say?

Wasn't there a winner more or less the same goal they scored to go to and up against Liverpool?

Like identical?

Yeah, Ross Barkley out to the side of Benny, who had a great game, by the way.

Oh, it was a great game, yeah.

And Jacob Brown slows across.

Yeah, I mean, it was a great game to be, actually.

I really did enjoy it.

The cross caused confusion, didn't it?

Because Anderson could have dealt with it.

Johnson could have dealt with it.

They both said, well, you deal with it.

And then Brown comes in and nicks it in.

And then they announced 12-minute stoppage time, by the way, which ended up being being 14.

So that wasn't great.

But no, it's a great victory for Luton.

You know, for 11,000,

just over 11,000 stadium, that place was rocking.

It was absolutely rocking.

And it was nice to see.

People have said that before the season started, John, that they needed, you know, the Kenilworth Cauldron to be a thing.

And did you get a sense from that yesterday that this is something that Luton could build on and could give themselves a decent sniff of survival?

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, that's the second time I've been there.

The atmosphere on boat, I mean, it was a Spurs game before, which they lost, but it was a similar atmosphere.

They really get on top of the opposition.

And the good thing about the team is that the team give the fans a lot to work with.

They really do work harder than any team I've seen in the Premier League this season.

And

actually, one note for Rob Edwards: the fisherman's jumper as a

managerial fashion item.

I'm all for that.

Yeah, excellent.

Forrest to Brighton 3.

Seems harsh, Barry, for this to be so late in the pod, given what an exciting game it was.

Yeah, it was a brilliant game, and I'm aware we're sort of time is against us.

And it's sad that my main takeout from this game was

Steve Cooper's daish-esque moan afterwards.

Forrest were a goal up at home against a team that is absolutely decimated by injury and has, I think, two or three more injuries on the back of this game.

And they lost.

And all he could do was blame the referee for two decisions that I think were perfectly reasonable.

And

he's getting into that.

I'm a fan of Steve Cooper's, but his pre-match moaning is getting really tiresome.

And yeah, I think it's quite unedifying for him because Forrest should have won this game and they threw it away.

And he has no one to blame but himself and his own players.

The other takeout is Evan Ferguson is really good and scored another belting goal.

That's kind of it, really.

Oh, the Lewis Donk sending off was quite strange.

So he got sent off two yellow cards in quick succession for dissent.

The first one's fine.

He got and then he appeared to go and you know shake anthony taylor's hand now i don't know if he said something to taylor or what but it seemed like from what i hear barry he said something okay and it was a red it was a red not a second oh really yeah um so a personally abusive language apparently and you can tell that

he's talking well he's saying something to him he turns back round offers his hand because he knows he's said something that you know he shouldn't have said and Anthony Taylor, quite rightly, has just gone to his pocket and given him a red.

And he looked quite embarrassed, Dunk, as he as he got the red card.

It's very irresponsible of him because, as I say, like Rhys James, Brighton have,

I think, 13 odd players out injured, many of them key.

And now he's going to have two.

Is that his second red of the season?

No, it isn't.

It's his first.

But yeah, so he's now looking at a ban, and that's just daft.

But, you know, people do things in the heat of the moment, I suppose.

Sheffield United won Bournemouth three.

Barry, you're our resident Bournemouth correspondent.

Three wins in four for them.

Here, Iola beginning to look like the manager we were all, brackets, Sid,

was expecting this season.

Yeah, I mean, I would caveat this win with the fact Sheffield United were absolutely appalling.

In the same way, I would caveat their win against Newcastle by

the fact Newcastle were decimated by by injury and looked incredibly leggy, but they're good results.

Watching this game, Antoine Semenyo looked really, really good for Bournemouth.

Can't say they signed him in January.

The one thing to say about Bournemouth is that they have spent money, not on the quiet, but in a way that, say, Sheffield United haven't.

And Bournemouth's owners are ambitious to establish a Premier League club.

I don't think we can say the same about Sheffield United.

It's quite sad.

The fans did boo the team.

They might boo the owners a bit more, I think.

Burnley won West Ham 2 finally.

Touchar says, are Burnley going to be okay?

Unlikely, Troy, isn't it?

I mean, they were so close to getting a win and to come away with nothing is brutal.

But it's becoming a bit of a trait now, and something's got to change.

It's seven.

Seven home defeats in a row.

And we were just talking about Luton and them making Kenilworth Road a fortress.

Any team down the bottom, their home form is absolutely vital.

Maybe not Everton because you seem to be better away from home, but the home form is absolutely vital.

And

again,

you know, they're a young side, and I think they're showing that they're a young side.

When the pressure comes on, they can't see games out.

They haven't got enough who will just put the ball into row Z or who will smash it down the pitch and get everybody up.

And, you know, they held that one goal lead for quite a long time and deserved it, by the way.

West Ham didn't look great, but once West Ham got a sniff that they were tiring and once they got a sniff that they were you know they're they were getting a little bit nervous they took took the ball by the horns and kudos was was brilliant in the creation of both goals look for burnley i don't vincent i don't think vincent company's in trouble but i think something needs to change because They've got to get results.

He's got to pick results up and play in the way that he wants to play,

which is in stealing in the players, but they've not found a way to win games.

So something's got to give.

So if it's not him, what is it?

Be more direct, be more pragmatic?

I just think the approach needs to be, I mean, particularly in that game on Saturday, then, is you're 1-0 up.

You know, you've got to settle.

You've got to be satisfied almost.

You've got to get over the line.

I think the confidence that a win gives you

is

unbelievable.

And particularly in their position, they've just got to get over the line.

So, you know, keeping that score, a 1-0 win against West Ham is a decent result.

And I think it just confidence just flows through the whole club.

But another defeat, you know, in that manner, which is not the first time at home, is soul-destroying.

And, you know, does Vincent need to change his tactics a little bit?

Is it something that they've said, look, Vin, just go and do what you've got to do.

We'll take the rough with the smooth.

And if we get relegated, we get relegated.

But

it's a tricky one to deal deal with.

And I think he's got to find a result somewhere.

And he's got to instill the confidence in the players to believe that they can get results.

They've got Sheffield United at home next.

Okay, so there's their result.

That is a big one.

Yeah.

I mean, taking the rough with the smooth is easier than just taking the rough with the rough, which is

what is currently happening.

But maybe, you know, we started the pod with a vibes guy.

We paid tribute to a vibes guy.

Maybe Vincent Company will end the pod as just a vibes guy.

And this is the vibe.

We just keep on playing it.

He's disappear of Miracles.

He does.

That would be amazing.

Um, uh, Fulham Wolves is tonight.

We'll cover that on Wednesday's pod.

If we remember, of course, and that'll do for today.

Uh, thank you, John.

Thanks, Max.

Thanks, Troy.

Pleasure, Max.

Thank you, Barry.

Thank you.

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