Everton deducted 10 points and Wales falter in Armenia – Football Weekly

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.

Speaker 1 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Wales Heartbreak, England, tedium.
But we'll start with Everton, deducting 10 points for breaching the rules.

Speaker 1 A fair punishment, or the Premier League trying to look tough as the regulator looms on the horizon. Everton aren't happy.
There were mitigating circumstances and they were compliant.

Speaker 1 What does that mean for other clubs currently in the dock, or at least near the dock? On the pitch, Ellis James has sent us a mini podcast after Rob Page's men didn't turn up in Armenia.

Speaker 1 Then, if you've just about managed to forget every last second of England to Molten Ill, we'll remind you about it. France score 14, brackets 14.

Speaker 1 Scotland draw in an entertaining game that didn't matter too much. And Kai Havertz plays left back.
All that. Plus, a new Football Weekly baby.
Your questions.

Speaker 1 And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 1 On the panel today, Paul Watson, welcome.

Speaker 2 Hello.

Speaker 1 Hello, Barry Barry Glendenning. Hi, Max.
And from the Racing Post, Mark Langdon, hello.

Speaker 3 Hi, Max.

Speaker 1 Kim says, instead of a 10-point deduction, should Everton have been forced to re-sign Neil Mope? Or would that punishment have been too severe?

Speaker 1 More sensible questions. Greg says, why was a 10-point punishment and not a fine or a transfer ban enforced? As first-time offenders for Everton seems excessive for what they've done.

Speaker 1 Richard says, why are so many journals saying Everton's penalties harsh when they could easily have avoided FFP by just selling Michael Keene rather than offering him a new contract?

Speaker 1 Isn't FFP just cheating when the impact is obvious? If they'd sold Keene, for example, they may have gone down in 21-22.

Speaker 1 So Everton deducted 10 points for breaching the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules, PSR, which is the Premier League's version of FFP.

Speaker 1 This leaves them in the relegation zone on four points. They were charged and found guilty of one count of breaking the rules.
Just to compare, we'll get onto that.

Speaker 1 So the rules require teams not to lose more than 105 million over three years with non-football costs excluded from the calculation.

Speaker 1 The Commission found Everton overreached their allowed losses by 19.5 million and concluded this was a serious breach that requires a significant penalty.

Speaker 1 Everton released a statement saying they're both shocked and disappointed by the ruling of the Premier League's Commission. They will appeal.
Thoughts? Barry?

Speaker 1 Well, I think the Premier League were pushing for a 12-point deduction. Everton got a 10-point deduction and there seems to be a school of thought that suggests this will go down on appeal.

Speaker 1 It it won't be quash but it may go down to six i don't think it's unnecessarily harsh a lot i think a lot of everton fans seem to think they're being picked on but the fact of the matter is they did break the rules a lot of it is down to interest payments they were paying for their new stadium at on the docks their emergency side

Speaker 1 and they by all accounts cooperated fully with the investigation but were found to have experts in who were making the figures look less bad than they actually were

Speaker 1 and they've cited extenuating circumstances in that the the russian invasion of ukraine in affected them because russian company usm had exclusive naming rights for this as yet unbuilt stadium worth £200 million

Speaker 1 and that because of the sanctions imposed on Russia that evaporated overnight.

Speaker 1 They cited the COVID pandemic as an extenuating circumstance, but I'm not sure that washes because everyone was affected by the COVID pandemic, all football clubs.

Speaker 1 And then there was the case of a player who, through no fault of the club's own,

Speaker 1 couldn't play for a season and had no sell-on value. And they had to let his contract run down before he was let go.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the punishment, it's harsh, and it may be the Premier League setting a precedent,

Speaker 1 but this was reached as the Premier League have made abundantly clear by an independent tribunal.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 yeah, everyone's now waiting to see what will happen to other clubs whose

Speaker 1 finances are being inspected.

Speaker 1 In pure footballing terms, Paul, feels like quite a good season for a points deduction.

Speaker 3 There's never a good time for a points deduction.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 if there was, if there was, I don't know,

Speaker 3 it feels very evident, doesn't it? They finally pull themselves up to mid-table, get themselves out of trouble, and then they're pushed straight back down. But yeah,

Speaker 3 I think they'll be fine. I think they'll stay up.
I think there's more than enough rubbish at the bottom there to keep them afloat. So in a way...

Speaker 3 take the hit now, get the punishment paid and move on. But it has a slight feeling of, you know, when the police get a mafia boss, but he's obviously a middle, like a kind of nobody.

Speaker 3 They take down someone and they parade him. But there's this unspoken that there's like much bigger fish that they've not got.
So it's a bit like that, isn't it?

Speaker 1 It's like, great, you've got Everton, but we all know there's more business to do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, you can imagine Sean Dice getting a real, you know, I was chatting to Sam Avery, the comedian and an Everton fan on the radio the other day, and he was like, God, I want the next game to be like now, because the atmosphere will be, it will be Fibra.

Speaker 1 It'll be quite amazing, Goodison. I think they've got Man United at home in their next game.
I think it's Super Sunday, and it will be like it will be rocking.

Speaker 1 That, you know, I mean, until obviously, Everton can see after 10 minutes, and then it'll start booing again. But, like, that will be quite amazing.
Do you think, Mark, there's any strength?

Speaker 1 Everton fans saying, Look, you know,

Speaker 1 six clubs tried to leave this league a couple of years ago and they didn't get any punishment. Like, is there any merit in that argument, or not really?

Speaker 3 I mean, it's quite a, it's quite a different kind of case or cases in that regard. And, you know, who's, I mean, I don't think we quite knew kind of what that actually meant.

Speaker 3 They might actually have stayed in the league, but played a reserve team or youth team or whatever in Premier League, which, you know, I think the Super League

Speaker 3 sort of breakaway six could have been sort of punished harsher. But,

Speaker 3 you know, we often say, like, what about Tree, don't we? On this pod.

Speaker 3 And I think we, you know, if you just look at the Everton case in isolation, I think it's very difficult to know where the right point penalty is. I do think that

Speaker 3 fines don't actually wash. And

Speaker 3 if you kind of, we're looking at it from Everton's point of view here, but if you were to change it around and look at one of those teams that went down instead of Everton, maybe they, you know, because they stayed in the rules, they didn't have one player that could have made the difference for them.

Speaker 3 And look, I think it's really harsh on. on Everton supporters because and we've said this before about other owners you very rarely you get the opportunity to kind of pick your owners.

Speaker 3 And they very much pick the club. And actually, it was their fans that were raising the point of how bad the owners were probably long before anybody else was.
And

Speaker 3 now they're arguing sort of a different case. So I do feel sorry for the supporters, but I don't think that this is completely kind of, you know, the first time.

Speaker 3 I mean, you only got to look at the EFL to see, you know, there are a lot of teams that have suffered point deductions that have taken them you know down the leagues and their clubs are in in crisis there are other leagues in Europe where teams have had point deductions for various things we've seen teams kicked out of Europe for not meeting UEFA sort of financial fair play so I don't think this is completely on its own albeit it's the first time you know in in terms of Premier League I remember as a Spurs fan I remember when they got the 12 point deduction and kicked out of the FA Cup back in the the mid 90s it was absolutely devastated more at the FA Cup than the points at the time.

Speaker 3 It shows kind of how feelings towards that competition have maybe changed.

Speaker 3 And I was very angry.

Speaker 3 I think it was the Premier League or the FA at the time. So I do get Everton's anger, but just looking at it

Speaker 3 without any passion towards it, some of the argument seemed flimsy, I think, from Everton's point of view.

Speaker 1 I suppose one thing Everton fans can point to with some justification is the fact that Portsmouth went into administration years ago and they only got a nine-point deduction. You know, and

Speaker 1 them going into administration affected a lot of people, obviously. You know, loads of people lost their jobs at the club and whatnot.
So, yeah, I reckon this

Speaker 1 appeal, it won't be overturned, I imagine, but it may. the number of points may be reduced.

Speaker 1 There's going to be an impact on the takeover. There are built-in clauses relating to the purchase of a club.

Speaker 1 It means the price of the sale will drop if the charges are upheld, which they have been, the takeover by 777 Partners.

Speaker 1 That's a different podcast or a different Jossimara article. If you want to learn about 777.

Speaker 1 I think if the takeover by 777 might be affected, that could be a good benefit for Everton. Possible, yes.

Speaker 1 And of course, those three relegated clubs are looking into trying to get compensation as well, aren't they, from Everton? Feels like a lot.

Speaker 1 At some point, I guess you have to let things go, don't you? That's sort of how I feel. I think, I don't know.
I'm not one of those clubs who are relegated, right?

Speaker 1 Another bit of Everton statement said, the club will also monitor with great interest the decision made in any other cases concerning the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules.

Speaker 1 Fraser said, should Lord Panic be starting to panic now? I can see imagine him sat in a hyper-barrack chamber in a dark room in his mansion, ready to leap into action any day.

Speaker 1 Cometh the hour, cometh the panic. Yes, Paul.
Um, Man City have been charged with more than a hundred alleged breaches of the rules. Uh, are yet to have a verdict amid legal wrangling on both sides.

Speaker 1 City of denied wrongdoing. Chelsea are under investigation for alleged breaches relating to the era of Roman Abramovich's ownership.
There's lots of idle speculation, Paul. Are these the same?

Speaker 1 Are they different? Do you know?

Speaker 3 I'll be honest. I don't know.
I have, look, I'm totally neutral. I've made it very clear.
I'm a Bristol City fan. I have no problem with Man City personally.

Speaker 3 I don't have a bias in this, but I do think as a neutral, I would love to see them relegated to step 22, as I think is basically what clearly has to happen.

Speaker 3 But mostly just so I can coach them.

Speaker 1 That's my mission. Bring them back.

Speaker 3 In fact, it'd be the ultimate sort of football manager save, wouldn't it? Bring back Man City from step 22 all the way back up to glory.

Speaker 1 If, of course, they are found guilty of any of these charges. Yes.

Speaker 3 And in fact, I'm listening out in case there are lawyers at my door already.

Speaker 1 So just for saying that yeah i mean actually mark are there direct comparisons to be made with these cases or or not

Speaker 3 i think until we've seen sort of the full evidence and and report it's very difficult to know is it isn't it really i think a lot of the a lot a lot of cities

Speaker 3 i think is slightly different there's 115 charges to go through um so you know there's been a push in more recent times to speed up the the process and that was something that the Premier League teams all agreed to in including Everton.

Speaker 3 So yeah, I mean, if City are found guilty, then they should have the book thrown at them.

Speaker 3 And as has been pointed out previously, you know, if they were to be relegated, for instance, the EFL, there's no obligation for them to take them into their league.

Speaker 3 So, as Paul saying, you know, it might be

Speaker 3 relegation might mean sort of national league or below.

Speaker 3 But I think it's difficult to compare the two until we've sort of seen all of the evidence, which we haven't seen in terms of, you know, in City's case. I certainly haven't gone through the 115.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you have, Matt.

Speaker 1 Well, I think City are being charged.

Speaker 1 Some of the

Speaker 1 offences they're being charged with relate to outright deceit and dishonesty, which makes it different to the Everton case.

Speaker 1 And they've also been charged with obfuscation, not non-cooperation with the investigation, whatnot.

Speaker 1 So, if they are found guilty, one suspects their punishment would be a lot greater, a lot more severe than a 10-point deduction. We shall see

Speaker 1 probably about 25 years' time.

Speaker 1 That'll do for part one. Part two will go on the pitch if that's okay with everyone.

Speaker 1 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Look, we're midway through the tour.
Dublin tonight, tomorrow, Brighton on Wednesday. No tickets available.

Speaker 1 But the live stream, we'd love you to come anywhere on earth.

Speaker 1 You know, Paul and Mark were both in Bristol. I'm sure they can vouch for that.
It will be, I mean, they didn't pay, but it's money well spent.

Speaker 1 But to be clear, they didn't, you know, they didn't pay to

Speaker 1 do the show. That seems harsh.
So look, come on Wednesday, and you can't avail on catch up as well. So go to theguardian.com/slash fwtour 23 musical numbers,

Speaker 1 Barry's holiday slideshow, amongst other things that you will see if you do that. James says, does time seem to slow down during an international break, or is it just me?

Speaker 1 I sort of think it's thinking about this the other day. It's just about getting fit.
You can't just be fit. That's the tournament: being fit.

Speaker 1 You actually have to run and do exercise, and that's what international breaks are. Let's start with Wales's draw in Armenia.
Rhys says, Is Ellis okay? It's been a shit few days.

Speaker 1 I'm still deluding myself into thinking we'll qualify on Tuesday. Croatia must be tired by now.
Ellis has sent us basically a podcast, and here it is:

Speaker 2 Sunday night.

Speaker 2 It's about 25 to 1 in the morning.

Speaker 2 I've just had three balls of crunching at conflicts and a bottle of Starup prominent Max. I'm at a low ebb.

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 a negative.

Speaker 2 And right now

Speaker 2 I need two positives, Max.

Speaker 2 We're Armenia one, Wales one.

Speaker 2 To fill the listeners in, especially the non-Welsh listeners, had we beaten Armenia on Saturday afternoon, that would have left it open then for us to qualify outright by beating Turkey on Tuesday night.

Speaker 2 It is out of our hands now. We need Armenia to take points off Croatia

Speaker 2 away. That game is in Croatia.
And for us to beat Turkey

Speaker 2 in Cardiff

Speaker 2 to qualify automatically, if that doesn't happen,

Speaker 2 which I think is pretty unlikely. It's the play-offs for us.
The play-offs fill me with dread because obviously we've lost our

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 generational once-in-a-lifetime uh match winner in Gareth Bale. Uh, let's talk about the game.
Uh, it ended one all.

Speaker 2 Uh, Armenia could still qualify um automatically if they'd won. So, so you're in a similar position to us, which meant there was like a sort of basketball match.

Speaker 2 They scored up to five minutes, which meant that our game plan was thrown out the window. In defence of Rob Page, and Rob Page obviously divides opinion.

Speaker 2 And yes, of course, the World Cup was a shambles. And yes, of course, there have been times, I think, when he's been tactically naive.

Speaker 2 But we were genuinely brilliant against Croatia in Cardiff in October.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I suppose

Speaker 2 whether you think that he

Speaker 2 worked out a first 11 that seemed to work or stumbled upon it, I suppose is how charitable you feel towards Rob Page.

Speaker 2 I just think that the game in October against Croatia and Cardiff, he just had found a balance and a formation, sort of gone back to five at the back, which is how we've traditionally played for years, with young Jordan James, and what a player he is, and Ethan Amperdou, who I could talk about forever, because I think Ethan is a great player, in a sort of double pivot.

Speaker 2 And then you've got Brooks and Moore and Harry Wilson up front because Alan Ramsey was injured for that fixture, just like he was injured for us on Saturday. We really missed him, incidentally.

Speaker 2 I said it was like a basketball match. His experience and cool head, I think, would have really sorted us out if he'd been playing.
But never mind,

Speaker 2 you can't change that.

Speaker 2 In fairness to Ropage, he selected the same 11. He started the same 11, which is what 99% of our supporters would have liked him to have done.

Speaker 2 And there's some big calls there, like he left out Brennan Johnson, he left out Dan James.

Speaker 2 Brennan Johnson, in particular, you know, you would think, well, you've got to find room for him, but he didn't. So Brennan was a sub.

Speaker 2 He came on, he didn't do a huge amount. In defence of Rob Page,

Speaker 2 most of our players, well, a significant amount of our players aren't playing regularly for a club level. And that really, really, really showed.
Kiefer Moore is a good example.

Speaker 2 I think he's had 14 minutes since that Croatia game for his club.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there was just sloppiness all round.

Speaker 2 But Paige is kind of damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, because if he selects, I don't know, Nathan Broadhead, for instance, who is playing regularly for his club ahead of

Speaker 2 one of the players who did so well against Croatian October,

Speaker 2 and that doesn't come off, then obviously he would get criticised for that. So I think he was in quite a difficult difficult position.
But either way,

Speaker 2 Armenia have got a player called

Speaker 2 Zelarayan,

Speaker 2 who is now in the Saudi league. We make him look like Stoichkoff and Haji rolled into one.

Speaker 2 We were unable to cope with him in June. We were unable to cope with him on Saturday.

Speaker 2 I think Armenia are

Speaker 2 to us a bit like what we were to Belgium for years and years. They have just got our number and we cannot beat them.
It is, however, a really, really daft group.

Speaker 2 So if you look at the fixtures, or if you look at the results, you know, Turkey drew with Armenia at home. Turkey qualified for the Euros with a game to spare.
You know, Latvia beat Armenia.

Speaker 2 We beat Croatia.

Speaker 2 It's been tight and it's been silly and everyone's taken points off each other. You know, should we win against Turkey and Armenia,

Speaker 2 take points off Croatia. We will qualify via the head-to-head because we drew with Croatia out there and then beat them in Cardiff, which I don't think anyone saw coming.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, we need to.

Speaker 2 I decided, I just went for a bike ride to unwind because this result has really upset me.

Speaker 2 I'm going to turn up on Tuesday. And I'm going to have a few points with my mates, so I always go with.

Speaker 2 And we have to

Speaker 2 go for it as if we can qualify. So, we've got to try and win the game, and then hope that it's lucky for us elsewhere.
That's the only mind frame or mindset you can have going into this match.

Speaker 2 And that's fine, you know. That's fine.
We've been in stickier situations in this.

Speaker 2 One thing I will say, though, is that there were news reports

Speaker 2 over the weekend because 32 Welsh fans got nicked out in Armenia. I know a few of them, and they are the least likely hooligans you will ever meet in your life.
Proper latte sipping guardianisters.

Speaker 2 And they were just walking back to the hotel. They weren't doing anything wrong.
They were just walking back to the hotel. They got bundled into a van.
They weren't told why they were being arrested.

Speaker 2 They weren't charged with anything. They were held overnight.
They weren't given food to eat or water to drink.

Speaker 2 They were treated really badly and then just released without charge as if nothing had happened.

Speaker 2 So, I don't want anyone to be misled by those headlines because I do a lot of wheels away, and we like a drink, and we're noisy, but we're not dicks.

Speaker 2 And I think that the people who got nicked were just in the wrong place in the wrong time. And I, um,

Speaker 2 you know, obviously, I don't know all 32, but I know I know quite a few, and they are the least likely hooligans you can imagine. So, uh, that was a real shame.
And, but anyway,

Speaker 2 we move on.

Speaker 2 We move on to Tuesday. Fingers crossed, we can get a winning card.
If there seems to be such disparity between our performances at home and away,

Speaker 2 thankfully, we are at home against Turkey.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 which makes me slightly more confident. Not that I'm very confident.
But who knows? Football is a DAF game. I don't know what first 11 he's going to play.

Speaker 2 Obviously, he'll have to bring in Lockier, you'd imagine, for Chris Mepham, because Chris Mepham is suspended because he got booked on Saturday. Oh,

Speaker 2 God.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Ellis. That was quite long.
So I'm going to move on to England, if that's all right.

Speaker 1 I hope you didn't have any majorly hot takes on that Wales-Armenia game because Ellis has done it all for us. Matt says, is Barry less concerned about the Euros having seen that England performance?

Speaker 1 Yes, England 2, Molten 0. Oh, that was a hard watch, Baz.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a pretty grim game with nothing really riding on it. And yet,

Speaker 1 there were, you know, capacity Wembley crowd at it, which just shows how popular the England team are at the moment.

Speaker 1 I think England have an excellent chance of winning the Euros. I think

Speaker 1 the one thing I'm not a Gareth Southgate fan, I think I've made that clear. I see Jonathan Wilson wrote that article yesterday

Speaker 1 in which he more or less decried Southgate sceptics as morons, and that's fine he could have just sent it to you couldn't he he didn't need to write in a paper

Speaker 1 uh that's fine but he kind of made my argument for me in in his piece uh my i i am aware as he says that southgate is the most successful england manager since alf ramsey i'm aware that he got england to uh a final and a semi-final but My problem with him is the manner in which he lost that semi-final and that final when England were on top in both games.

Speaker 1 Should have won and didn't. That is my problem with Gareth Southgate.
He's too cautious at those times. His in-game management is, I think, incredibly suspect.

Speaker 1 So, that is my problem with Southgate. And I think that could, you know, be a problem again.
But I would give England every chance of winning the Euros.

Speaker 1 The only team I can see in Europe that is better than is probably France. But the best teams don't always win tournaments.
I feel like I've heard you say those.

Speaker 1 I have so many times.

Speaker 1 I understand if people forward wound through those.

Speaker 1 So do I, absolutely. 30 minutes, Mark.

Speaker 3 Well, Jonathan Wilson sort of had the same thing with various managers, isn't he? So

Speaker 3 it's not just Barry.

Speaker 1 There was lots of frothing at the mouth, Mark, at this game. Does it matter? It doesn't matter.
Because it's the only game in town, right?

Speaker 1 So we're all watching it and all, we've got to fill air time talking about it.

Speaker 3 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 Obviously, you know, if you spend your money to go to that game, you're you presumably you're hoping you know to see the stars, and you know, you might maybe don't always get to watch them at kind of Premier League level.

Speaker 3 And this was an opportunity to do that, but it's a completely different game, there's no jeopardy on it.

Speaker 3 You know, they probably, the England players probably woke up knowing that they were going to win the game. It was a case of how many they were going to win by that.

Speaker 3 I don't think, you know, if you're an elite sports person, that's that's probably not a great way to enter sort of, you know, a match day. They went through the motions.

Speaker 3 They'd scored after seven or eight minutes. So it was just a case of just waiting for the next goal to come.
There were no injuries. And it would be a boring thing to kind of go on about.

Speaker 3 But, you know,

Speaker 3 if you're an England player, surely you are thinking about... Premier League or Bundesliga or La Liga in whatever league you're playing in.
Champions League's coming back.

Speaker 3 On this international break, Vinicius ruled ruled out two and a half months playing for Brazil. Gavi did his ACL last night out for several months.
You know,

Speaker 3 the kind of demands on players have never been greater.

Speaker 3 The rewards have never been higher. But just because you're rich doesn't mean that you can avoid these injuries.
So I think being sensible and

Speaker 3 just thinking about the rest of the season, it's a long season coming up. So do you really need to be charging around against Malta when you've already qualified? Of course you don't.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I understand completely why Garrisal Gate had to look at Tamori at left back rather than say bring in a younger player and stuck him there. Because in a sort of tournament situation, maybe,

Speaker 3 you know, Tamori's in the squad and...

Speaker 3 You know, you're not going to take sort of four or five left back.

Speaker 3 So if the two left backs get injured, there's something, you know, Trippier gets suspended or whatever, you need to just be able able to see if somebody else can do a job there.

Speaker 3 And it was just a time to see a couple of different things. Dion Dublin made me laugh in commentary when Harry Maguire played a pass out of the back that was intercepted.

Speaker 3 And he was saying, you've got to show more respect to Malta. You know, you can't just play those risky passes.

Speaker 3 And later on in the half, he's clearly completely frustrated with what England has served up and said, you know, no disrespect to Malta, but we've got to be beating these by Mara.

Speaker 2 Which one is it, Dion? You know, do we showing them respect or are we not?

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 3 this happens sort of during England's qualifying campaigns. And I think overall, you know, the qualifying was done when England won in Italy.
You know, it was out on the first match day.

Speaker 3 And since then,

Speaker 3 you know, it's been a stroll for them. And

Speaker 3 the fact that we've got so many teams going to the Euros means there isn't much jeopardy in many of these games. I know Ellis is feeling it at the moment.
But,

Speaker 3 yeah, this was done ages ago.

Speaker 3 So I can't, I'm not going to, I think there are legitimate reasons to stick the boot into Gareth Southgate going back to say the Euro's final against Italy, but I can't get overworked up by, you know, just beating Water 2 now.

Speaker 1 Paul Harry Kane was booked for diving. I mean, it seems harsh.

Speaker 1 He's not that kind of player, is he?

Speaker 3 No, no, I couldn't believe it either. I mean, yeah, that is a little bit

Speaker 3 embarrassing, isn't it, against Malta?

Speaker 3 I think that the thing that i wanted to flag up about malta is i think people do have a slightly unrealistic expectation of how bad malta are so um there's obviously a spectrum of teams across europe and malta are very much in the lower end but they're not a team you beat 8-0 9-0 you know they're a team the the the general sort of possibility is you can beat them two nil you can beat them four nil if you have a really good day you might beat them five nil but I think realistically 2-0 was fine.

Speaker 3 And I think people are still looking at them as if, you know,

Speaker 3 this is a pretty organized team. Italian boss,

Speaker 3 Marcollini, he's got them set up pretty well. Like 2-0 was pretty much the lower end of expectation.
But honestly, you know,

Speaker 3 if you don't want to watch these games, then by all means, don't watch them. But they're not going to be goal fests, not this one.

Speaker 1 I mean, Harry Kane probably was fouled. I thought it was strange that VAR overturned it, but perhaps...
You know, he's probably got away with the odd dive in his career. I think it's fair to say.

Speaker 1 England are in North Macedonia tonight. Thank God we're on stage in Dublin and we don't have to watch it.
We found something else to do.

Speaker 1 Kieran says, if this is the end of Stephen Kenney's reign as Republic of Ireland manager, as expected, how would Baz sum it up and who would be his ideal successor?

Speaker 1 They lost at 1-0 in the Netherlands, Valtweghorst with the goal.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it was Vout Veghorst running on to a true ball and finishing, spanking the ball into the top corner near post.

Speaker 1 Not the goal you see Wout Weghorst score very often. I expect this is the end of the Stephen Kenney regime, and it's been an absolute disaster.

Speaker 1 Ireland, well, you know, they were in a really tough group. France, Netherlands, Greece, they lost all six games they played against them.

Speaker 1 Stephen Kenney

Speaker 1 keeps saying they're really close, and these games are decided by, you know, little margins. But, you know, if you're losing

Speaker 1 six games against the teams you're trying to qualify against.

Speaker 1 That's just not good enough. He has brought through a lot of young players.
That's the only thing, but

Speaker 1 they're not playing particularly well. And

Speaker 1 very, I'd be astonished if his contract is renewed. And I have no idea who they will get in next.
Lee Carsley is one name that's been bandied about. He's manager of England under 21.

Speaker 1 If he gets the job, it'll be interesting to see how he gets on. But...

Speaker 1 Don't want Big Mick or Roy keen or mick and roy together uh well i know martin o'neill i think is quite bitter about the manner in which he he his time in charge so maybe he deserves another chance but yeah it's really disappointing i wasn't expecting to qualify but just to

Speaker 1 i i thought we'd go out with not not a bang but certainly not a whimper like we have done there was this loophole um which meant the republic of ireland needed to lose to the netherlands but sadly even that is no good good anymore as they've fallen behind Bosnia and Herzegovina, Finland, Georgia, Greece, Israel, Luxembourg, and Poland, who are confirmed in playoff spots, and Croatia, Italy, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine, who are assured at least a playoff spot via their Nations League ranking.

Speaker 1 The Netherlands only need a point from their final game in this group against Gibraltar, which... I mean, maybe Gibraltar will bounce back.
You know, sometimes the worst time to play a team is after,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 after a bad defeat.

Speaker 1 Alan says, is scoring 14 goals in a game rude to be honest i started to get offended after 11 and i'm not from gibraltar and kapanosti says isn't it fun to see a minnow get a proper old-school shellacking yes france was seven nil up at halftime and seven nil at halftime is never 14 0 at full-time so hats off to france uh i say where do you stand paul as the uh as the minnow representative i've got to admit i i did quite enjoy it i feel quite sorry for gibraltar um this is where this is where it sounds a bit funny to say it but gibraltar are just not picking a lot of their best players So it's actually the coach has got to go.

Speaker 3 I think there's a lot of pressure on Julio Rubas there. The FA generally is not running things well.

Speaker 3 So while Gibraltar would have got pretty badly beaten, I think, by any France team, I think going down to 10 men early on and having a pretty weak Gibraltar team out there, it was just

Speaker 1 not even fair. Why is he not picking his best player? I mean, it seems silly.

Speaker 3 Politics. He's picking a lot of the older guard.
He's clinging on to a lot of players that are basically past their best. And there are some really talented young Gibraltarian players out there.

Speaker 3 So yeah, hope they'll get themselves together. But yeah, I think that's 7-0 team talk.

Speaker 3 When you're going in at half-time, 7-0 down to France, I think if my team talk would be the sound of me starting the bus up, I think.

Speaker 1 Yeah. When you think a forfeit is only 3-0, isn't it? So

Speaker 1 Mbappe, his third goal was lovely for his hat-trick. A delightful chip over presumably quite a disconsolate Gibraltar.
That would be my

Speaker 1 feelings about this.

Speaker 1 300 career goals from Mbappe. Olivier Giroux got a couple.
Warren Zaya Emery is 20 years younger than Giroux. He actually got injured, didn't he? Which is a shame because

Speaker 1 he became the youngest player to debut for France in over 100 years at 17 years, eight months and 10 days.

Speaker 1 So well done to him. Scotland drew 2-2 in Georgia on Thursday night, followed up with the three-all drawing home to Norway.
They equalised twice, took the leads with Stuart Armstrong goal.

Speaker 1 Mohamed El Yanussi equalised late on for Norway who don't qualify. So no Erdoga, no Haaland at the Euros.
I mean, it mattered a tiny bit, Mark, didn't it, in terms of what pot they go into?

Speaker 1 But, you know, they still got t-shirts and saying we're off to Germany. It's been a brilliant campaign for them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so that was probably the only, I suppose, disappointing aspect of the campaign. They could have finished in pot two, but not to be.
So pot three for Scotland.

Speaker 3 But it's been a fantastic sort of group stage for them. Yeah, it wasn't and then we were speaking earlier there about Ireland and you know they had a tough draw.

Speaker 3 I don't think this was a particularly pleasant one for for Scotland. Georgia, probably a dangerous side sort of in terms of kind of below sort of Scotland in the seedings.

Speaker 3 Norway, as you mentioned there, have got some top players, maybe not put it all together. And then Spain, you know, one of the best teams in Europe.

Speaker 3 So for Scotland to have done it so well in such style as well is testament to the work that Steve Clark has done.

Speaker 3 In these games, obviously, it didn't matter. And so I think they did sort of relax somewhat.
And, you know, that maybe played out in terms of the final scores.

Speaker 3 But, you know, a lot of jokes about sort of Scotland not being able to qualify in terms of once they get to a major finals.

Speaker 3 I think obviously draw depending, but they've got a really good chance, I think, of making the knockout stages when you look at kind of those pop two teams around Europe. And yeah, good luck to them.

Speaker 3 I think that Steve Clark has done what Stephen Kenney's been unable to do.

Speaker 3 Now, he has got better players, for sure, but there is a spirit there that kind of I think is what you need at international level.

Speaker 3 You need to be able to get your best players to want to turn up regularly.

Speaker 3 That feels like half the battle.

Speaker 3 And you look at somebody like John McGinn now, who is turning in sort of excellent performances Premier League and internationally.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I just really like the way that Scotland are playing football. They've had their sort of downs, I suppose, in terms of the international friendlies.

Speaker 3 They were beaten by England, weren't they? And also France, which maybe shows their limitations. But just look at their squad list.
Managers good.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm sort of encouraged about sort of what they might be able to do in Germany. I don't think they're just turning up, you know, to have a drink, three games, and go home.

Speaker 3 I think there's more to Scotland than that.

Speaker 1 Dark horses, perhaps. All right, that'll do for part two.
Part three, we'll rattle through the rest of the Euro qualifying groups and do any other business.

Speaker 1 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Group E, then Albania have qualified for just the second time in their history.
They drew in Moldova on Friday.

Speaker 1 Czech Republic drew at Poland. So, that means Poland miss out on automatic qualification.

Speaker 1 Albania, Paul, dark horses?

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, it's actually a really interesting story around Albania. So, their manager Silvinho has done a brilliant job.

Speaker 3 There's this beautiful footage of him running the length of the sideline, like quite aggressively high-fiving fans like some of those high-fives i thought if they're not stopped this is a broken nose like he's going mental but quite amazing what albania have done is i think they've got this um this hero who's in the back room who no one really knows about who went through databases and made a database for the first time of albanian players players that were were like eligible for selection and like really like dug deep into like player heritage they never had a database like this i think some of the players that are really like lighting up the qualification help them through were players that he unearthed who actually could qualify to play for Albania, who just, for whatever reason, had not done so.

Speaker 3 So it's kind of a moneyball style thing. You know, I think there's, there's kind of an analyst in the background who's, who's, yeah, done this incredible job, but lovely to see him playing like that.

Speaker 3 It's, it's, yeah, it's brilliant.

Speaker 1 Uh, Belgium beat Azerbaijan 5-0 yesterday, four goals in 20 minutes for Romello Lukaku, 83 for his country, seventh on the list of top scorers.

Speaker 1 uh for belgium because that's had some they've had some big scorers who's up there enzo shifo i don't know

Speaker 1 Oh, sorry. Seventh on the list of top scorers in the world.
Yeah, I was thinking that for a second. Okay, that changes things.
Who are these Belgians just rattling them home? I haven't noticed.

Speaker 1 They're through with Austria,

Speaker 1 Hungary, and through with Serbia as well. Serbia.
It's been a long time for them, hasn't it? For the Serbians. So nice to see them.

Speaker 1 I mean, Mark, Paul, or Barry, stop me if you have anything interesting to say about this.

Speaker 3 Well, I just Shaboshai scored an absolutely wonder goal for hungary in their uh qualification then was um seen drinking um with the supporters after the game doing a shot of um of something that sort of made him wince as he as he downed it but he's he's been great for liverpool so far um you know fantastic for hungary um as well and yeah he's individual goal i mean i think so often we you know we sort of associate Shaboshlai with thunderbolts really, but this was individual goal taking on players and finishing beautifully.

Speaker 3 So, yeah,

Speaker 3 he's sort of playing himself in great nick for the rest of the year.

Speaker 3 And I believe, so Hungary got 12-game unbeaten run now, which I think is the longest in world football now that Argentina's is gone.

Speaker 3 And I think it starts from the moment they made him captain, doesn't it? I think he's every game that he's captained, Spotlight,

Speaker 1 they've won, or not won, but they haven't lost. So that's a pretty impressive impact, I think.
Dark horses, Matts. Okay, they're dark horses, right? Denmark sealed their qualification.

Speaker 1 Big game tonight between Slovenia and Kazakhstan. Winner takes all, or draw for Slovenia takes all.

Speaker 1 What can the Kazakhs do, Paul?

Speaker 3 I think it's a step too far for them, but it's been an incredible campaign.

Speaker 3 I think I mentioned before, like they actually only came over from AFC to UEFA relatively recently, and no one gave them a hope in this campaign.

Speaker 3 In fact, before this campaign, talking to San Marino fans, they thought Kazakhstan was the game they could win out of all of them.

Speaker 3 Didn't turn out that way. Although they did score.
San Marino did score twice in two games now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, twice in two games.

Speaker 3 That's huge, isn't it? First time since 2005 they scored in back-to-back games. But yeah, Kazakhstan, I think it's a step too far for them, but they'll play off, I think.

Speaker 1 A hot streak for the San Marino Ease. San Marino Ease? Is that how would I say it? San Marinese, I think.
San Marinese, yeah. San Marinese.

Speaker 1 Group I, group was settled on Saturday. Romania beat Israel 2-1.
Switzerland drew 1-0 with Kosovo. They play each other tomorrow night to decide who wins the group.
Portugal smashed Group J.

Speaker 1 They might even just be horses for the tournament behind England and France in

Speaker 1 the favourite Slovakia through as well. Jim says, can Luxembourg go again? Or was this their best chance?

Speaker 1 So sad for Luxembourg, Paul. Every time you gave them hope, it was your fault.

Speaker 3 There's a moment. There's a one moment that will haunt them forever, I think.

Speaker 3 And it's their player who top scorer, national top scorer, Jason Rodriguez, brilliant player, has a open goal miss against Iceland in the game that finished one all.

Speaker 3 And I think that basically will go back as the moment they lost it

Speaker 3 because they've been absolutely sensational in this campaign. And

Speaker 3 yeah, who would have thought we got to a point where Luxembourg were this close? But I think the playoffs will be tough for them now.

Speaker 3 And it's such a shame because I know growing up, if you'd said Luxembourg would qualify for a Euro, I'd have thought you'd gone absolutely mental. But they have been sensational.

Speaker 3 Except for losing 9-0 to Portugal. Except when they lost 9-0 to Portugal and their coach left at 8-0.

Speaker 1 Oh, brilliant. Really good.

Speaker 1 Elsewhere, Juganin in Argolsman's first defeat as Germany manager, 3-2 to Turkey at home in a friendly. I mean, obviously, lots of Turks live in Germany.

Speaker 1 It was like it was basically a home game for Turkey. And Kai Havertz playing left back, Barry.

Speaker 1 We finally, you know, it's like players just go, you know, you star this, we all star the centre forward, go to centre mid, and then you end up back there, Ghana. Maybe this is his calling.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it seems to have prompted a lot of head scratching.

Speaker 1 I was certainly bemused when I heard about it, and it didn't work, obviously. So

Speaker 1 who knows? He might start the next one in goal.

Speaker 1 Then come the Euros. Could he do a job in goal? We don't know.

Speaker 1 He'd be quite a relaxed goalkeeper. I quite liked it.

Speaker 1 He did score, didn't he? I think, after five minutes. So initially, it was like, wow, this is absolutely wonderful.
But then, you know, Turkey did win, Mark.

Speaker 3 Yeah they did I mean Numbersman said afterwards that Havertz was one of Germany's best players and that this is not just a one-game experiment. He thinks he can do it.

Speaker 3 I would love to see him displace Manuel Neuer in goal. I'm sure Neuer would be really chilled out about that.

Speaker 3 He feels like that sort of character.

Speaker 3 I mean it's a time for experimentation.

Speaker 3 for Germany. I know Loefer Mateus, who is kind of the renter quote in Germany, you know, Harry Redknapp gets the call kind of every two minutes in England.
It's always Lofa Mateus.

Speaker 3 He wasn't happy with how

Speaker 3 sort of Havertz displaced Ram the usual left back and felt it was sort of disrespectful. But I think if you're Naglesman, you haven't got that many games now until the Euros.

Speaker 3 You need to try some things. But

Speaker 3 the problem for Germany is the same one that Bayern Munich have got in that they just haven't got that defensive midfielder.

Speaker 3 So they're conceding too many goals. And Joshua Kimmick

Speaker 3 insists that he can play as that defensive midfielder.

Speaker 3 But the stats maybe suggest that he needs somebody alongside him that is more of a sitter, more of a Didier Deschamps style than what they've currently got. And

Speaker 3 yeah, until they sort out that defence, very difficult to see a team win a sort of international tournament being that bad defensively.

Speaker 1 I mean, Lota Batez could stop. talking and start playing, couldn't he? There you go.

Speaker 1 I suppose in the discussion about dark horses, the perennial dark horses that are Turkey have to merit a mention in that dark horse category. Yes, you've stolen.

Speaker 1 I've written our Turkey Dark Horses in.

Speaker 1 Of course, no, don't apologise. You're absolutely right to bring it up.
I mean, they did qualify well in Wales's group, didn't they, Mark?

Speaker 3 They did, yeah.

Speaker 3 And, you know, obviously Croatia have had not a vintage campaign, and it might turn out to not have been the strongest of groups, but certainly I think Turkey are.

Speaker 3 I don't want to big them up too much. I think I was one of those that fell for them in the last Euro.
So I've tried to be calm about their chances. But

Speaker 3 I think ultimately,

Speaker 3 despite the fact that we spent nearly an hour discussing the qualifying, really doesn't matter. Once you get there, it's a completely different tournament.

Speaker 3 You play against teams of a different level to what you're playing in sort of these round-robin stage usually.

Speaker 3 And, you know, we've seen before Turkey not be good enough, not be able to to handle that environment. So

Speaker 3 until they do that, I think it's difficult to put too much trust in them.

Speaker 1 Outside of Europe, Australia are due to play Palestine tomorrow in a World Cup qualifier in Kuwait. They drew 0-0 with Lebanon on Thursday.
The Socceroos will donate to humanitarian efforts in Gaza.

Speaker 1 The game was only moved last week to a new venue due to safety concerns. It was going to be played in Ramallah in the West Bank.

Speaker 1 The last time Palestine played at home was against Saudi Arabia in 2019. The pledge from the Socceroos was confirmed by The Guardian on Friday.
It It includes a match donation from Football Australia.

Speaker 1 It will be provided to Oxfam through the PFA Footballers Trust.

Speaker 1 Horatio says, I'm writing to ask that you please speak about how Messi and DePaul both grabbed Napolis Oliveira by the throat in the World Cup qualifier after DePaul instigated a fight with Uruguay.

Speaker 1 Messi threw an elbow at Oliveira. I'm admittedly biased as a Uruguayan, but have always been a Messi fan.
But not one journalist has criticised this.

Speaker 1 If Suarez did it, he would have been banned for life by FIFA. Instead, they dismiss it because it's a different player.
Ugate gestured to DePaul that he was

Speaker 1 pleasuring Messi, I'll say. DePaul also injured Maxia Araujo and was awarded a foul in his favor in a rugby-like tackle.
The ref was visibly aggressive towards Uruguay from the start of the match.

Speaker 1 Disgrace that two players are allowed to choke a guy. Argentina showed how poor losers they really are.
I mean, Uruguay won 2-0.

Speaker 1 I don't know if anyone is completely across at what happened, Mark.

Speaker 3 I mean, I just, I mean, this is what you want. This is what everybody wants from South American qualifying.

Speaker 3 You, you know, it's very difficult now, the way that the tournament's been extended for teams not to qualify. It used to be the most competitive sort of section going.

Speaker 3 Now, so many spaces that it'd be difficult not to reach the next World Cup. So you want to see kind of proper South American action, I suppose.
And this was definitely that.

Speaker 3 Beautifully described there, what happened with the Ugate.

Speaker 3 And I think that did, in some way, instigate what followed. So

Speaker 3 the good news for Uruguay is that Bielsa seems to be working his magic on that team.

Speaker 3 And that can only be good. I think, you know, fought for the World Cup

Speaker 3 with Uruguay there.

Speaker 1 Nice to see Louis Diaz's father celebrating the stands when Louis Diaz scored in Colombia's 2-0 win over Brazil in a World Cup qualifier on Friday.

Speaker 1 There was news that Liverpool had flown Louis Diaz to the UK for Christmas. I was thinking, guys, it's only mid-November, guys.

Speaker 1 I mean, that is a long, you know, you your parents there for Christmas, but, you know, let's let's get them there, you know, December.

Speaker 1 That just week lead up to Christmas seems the right time for that. You've mentioned Vinicius Jr.'s injury as well, set to be out for about 10 weeks.

Speaker 1 Paul, you wanted to mention English managers in Asian World Cup qualifying matches?

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, I wanted to give a special mention to Ashley Westwood, who has taken on possibly the most daunting job in the history of football. So he, you might remember Ashley Westwood.

Speaker 3 He was at Sheffield Wednesday for a while. He played for almost everyone.
He's become a very decent coach, coached in India.

Speaker 3 He took on the Afghanistan men's national job about eight days before their game against Qatar, flew into Kabul, handshakes.

Speaker 3 And I don't know whether he was aware that 19 of their senior players had gone on strike, led by the captain, against the Federation.

Speaker 3 So 19 of their players are refusing to play because they believe the Federation president is corrupt.

Speaker 3 So he's come into a team with no players eight days before they played Qatar and had to pick an entirely new domestic squad pretty much. And it went about as well as you can imagine.

Speaker 3 They lost 8-1 to Qatar, and it could have been quite a few more. But I sort of thought he deserves a mention for taking that job on.
Afghanistan national job with eight days' notice is

Speaker 3 that that is even by my standards, that's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 You've ruled yourself out, have you? You've ruled yourself out, Afghanistan. They called me first.

Speaker 3 I also had to give a little mention to Stephen Constantine, who actually, his Pakistan side lost 4-0 to Saudi Arabia, but it's the first time they've ever actually got this far, Pakistan.

Speaker 3 And Constantine's done an amazing job coming in. He's actually, I think, the English manager who's coached the most national teams, but they're all crazy jobs.

Speaker 3 He's coached Nepal, he's coached Malawi, he's coached Sudan. You name it.
He's coached these kind of weird national jobs. And he's actually come in and did a great job.

Speaker 3 They look very good actually against Saudi Arabia. They conceded two goals in the 90th, 90-plus minutes.
But Pakistan really looking very good.

Speaker 1 Luke says, check out this rabbit hole I fell down. I don't know, Paul, if you're aware of the Malaysian footballer called Dion Johan Chai Kools.

Speaker 1 Kools was born in Sarawak to a Belgian father, Hans Kools, and a Malaysian Chinese mother. They relocated to Belgium more than 20 years ago.

Speaker 1 He's named by his parents after Johan Cruyff and Dion Dublin. So

Speaker 1 this is great. Great to get one of the legendary players of the game.
and a target man. It's sort of a really, that's a nice mix to have.
So you could be named.

Speaker 1 I thought you were going to say great to have a player named after one of the legendary figures of the game and Johan Croy. Of course, that's what I should have said.
You're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 Let's finish on this email from Ben who says, on the theme of Football Weekly and medical procedures, I had tickets to your Manchester gig.

Speaker 1 I was shocked to be woken up on the morning by my wife who'd gone into early labor.

Speaker 1 While I couldn't listen to the pod while my wife was giving birth, my mind couldn't help but wonder what the Will Unwyn anecdote was or what John Bruin would have made of our midwife putting on heart FM when we asked for some music.

Speaker 1 My amazing wife Susie gave birth to our beautiful daughter Beatrice Anderson who was born at 4.52 p.m. on the 15th of November, about 500 yards from the Royal Northern College of Music.

Speaker 1 And a stone's throw from Big Hands, where I hope Barry burned someone else's t-shirt to make up for it. I was hoping for some classic Barry warm wishes.
I mean, 10 to 5.

Speaker 1 He could have made it, couldn't he? Yeah, easily. We didn't end up in Big Hands this time.

Speaker 1 We went, it was a nice pub called Salutation,

Speaker 1 where we hobnobbed with the front man and the bass player from the Cortiners, who are, well, I think Liam, the singer, is and songwriter, is a big Football Weekly fan. Yes, hello, Liam.

Speaker 1 This is mainly for you to say.

Speaker 1 Sorry. Not you name-dropping about the Cortinas.

Speaker 1 I'll be honest,

Speaker 1 I actually saw the Cortinas many, many years ago in a at a London, I think, University of London Student Union gig.

Speaker 1 So they have gone on to bigger and better things. You're still not welcoming Beatrice.

Speaker 1 This is about Beatrice. Welcome to the world.

Speaker 1 Have a great time.

Speaker 1 And yeah, that'll do for today's pod. Thank you, Paul.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Baz. Thank you.
Cheers, Mark.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Mark.

Speaker 1 We'll see you in Dublin tonight. Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.
Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.