Chaos in Copenhagen and Arsenal’s easy night – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly, a ludicrous game in Copenhagen.

Felt like four games in one.

Manchester United looked better than they have all season.

Then Rashford's red card and a 10-minute capitulation.

Then Copenhagen doing nothing with the man advantage.

Then the second unbearable handball penalty of the night before United's second capitulation.

It all leaves them bottom and in danger of going out of Europe altogether.

In the same group, Bayerner threw.

Ganatasrai made it difficult, but Harry Kane again proved his worth.

An easy night at the Emirates, slicing through Sevilla with ease and putting them in pole position to win the group elsewhere.

A good night for the Reals.

Madrid and Sociedad.

We'll preview the Premier League games.

We'll discuss the tragedy chancing at Luton, we should have covered on Monday.

All that, dogs named after Barry.

Yet more Gary Bertel's your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning, welcome.

Hello.

Mark Langdon, hello.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Archie Rintut.

Hi, Max.

Steve says, so how far has the game gone tonight?

Way beyond the normal.

The game's gone.

Aiden, is this really Manchester United football club we're talking about here?

Sean, who do United turn to next now that Phil Neville is gainfully employed?

And many people, including Seamus, saying, should United have just played with a higher line?

Went down to 10 men.

They lost 4-3 in Copenhagen.

The biggest moment was the Copenhagen fans singing the Outhere Brothers whoop, there it is, at the end.

At least I believe that was the Out Here Brothers, but we should probably talk about the football match.

Barry, where do you begin on a game like this?

I suppose the start is as good a place as any.

United

went 2-0 up through Rasmus Highland,

looked very comfortable and like they were going to win.

I think in the build-up to the game, the Copenhagen manager had said, you know, bigged up the home support said

the atmosphere would be a hundred times more hostile than and noisy than anything that was generated at Old Trafford

and

United needed to I suppose silence the crowd who were very loud very hostile no great surprise because most Premier League rounds are pretty funereal

with a couple of notable exceptions so they've they've done that they've silenced the crowd and then Marcus Rashford gets sent off for

I thought it was a fair enough Regar stamp on Elias Yellert.

I don't think he intended to do it, but that doesn't matter.

Intent is not a factor, but he did stamp on his instep.

United were tuned up.

Rashford got sent off,

and

Copenhagen made it 2-2 at half-time.

You know, Rashford was sent off in the 42nd minute.

It was 2-2 at half-time.

But...

You know, it wasn't like Copenhagen scored quickfire goals.

There was 13 minutes of added time.

I'm not sure where it all came from, but that's where we are these days.

Charlie says, will there be a hotline to call for anybody who sees Marcus Rashford so much as smiling during his free time this week?

Stephen says, why is it that all these expert ex-players,

who the ex-players are clamoring to have on committees overseeing refs, don't know the laws of the game?

I'm seeing so many expert ex-players saying Rashford wasn't a red.

He stamped on his ankle.

It's a nailed on red.

I'm a referee.

Jamie Carragher saying, no way, that's a red card for Rashford.

I hate these slow-motion replay still images that make everything look 10 times worse.

I mean, Mark, the still image does make it look worse.

And I think 10 years ago, I would have been annoyed that that was a red card, but I think it is a red card.

Yeah, I mean,

to the people that think it's not a red card, I'd like them to write a law that would cover that to make it that it wasn't.

So what would the law say?

Unintentional stamps are allowed if you're trying to,

I don't, you know, protect the ball.

Is that what we're saying?

And is that only to the ankle?

What about if it lands on the shin?

I just think that

while he didn't necessarily, we don't know if he meant it.

I mean, the only person who knows if he meant it is Marcus Rashford.

I think that has to be a red card.

I think

if your foot's nowhere near the ball and you end up landing on somebody's ankle, I find it very difficult to

sort of see any other outcome, really, Matt.

Yeah, so if Jamie Carragher wants to write a law that kind of would enable that not to be a red card, but then doesn't allow carnage elsewhere for people that feel like that's a bit of a free hit, sort of at other times, then yeah, crack on.

Carragher's Law, which sounds like a sort of does sound like a 1990s detective show, doesn't it?

Which I would really enjoy it, Archie.

It felt like a good argument for the wrong incident.

When you're talking about, I don't like this slowing down of

replays, I'm thinking, okay,

but for something where you are stamping on someone's ankle, which even me using the word stamping implies intent.

It's just what has happened here.

I think it's, I think that's the problem is maybe talk about penalty incidents like that, but when it's serious foul play, which is something that does happen quickly, I think there is a lot less intent.

with these incidents that happens.

It's just that if you put anything in slow-mo, then it looks that much more intentional and epic.

So yeah, I think we just need to take the word intent out of how we interpret things generally, because a lot of the time, it's just that these players are ridiculously fast.

So yeah,

it is a red card.

The sort of sudden nature with which Copenhagen then scored those two goals, Barry, it just felt like this is what happens to Manchester United at the moment.

You know, they hit the bar with that free kick straight from the Rashford foul.

And then it was just like you sort of felt it was coming, even if we could debate the Maguire handball for a long time that we don't necessarily need to do.

No,

yeah, I mean, there's no reason why United or any other team should fall to pieces just because they've lost one player.

If you're 2-0 up with 10 men, it should be fine.

You should be able to close the game out.

It shouldn't be a massive problem.

But

they will argue, and they did or Eric and Hag did argue that they were unlucky that

two of Copenhagen's goals should have stood I don't particularly buy his arguments

but

they they were given the opportunity to get back in the game that's exactly what they did you know Copenhagen haven't won a Champions League game in seven years going into this Manchester United are not playing well at the moment we all know that and

this was

no huge surprise that they lost this game they have to play luton at the weekend

if they lose that you would have to seriously seriously worry about eric tonhag's prospects of keeping his job i i would imagine that would be the straw that would break the camera's back if luton beat them yeah it was interesting mark that copenhagen had been sort of had the win in theirselves and halftime came and then they came out again in second half and actually until Man United got that penalty they didn't do anything with 11 against 10.

No I thought Manchester United sort of controlled the game really for large parts

up until the Rashford red card, then they had that sort of chaotic period between that and half-time.

And then, after half-time, they reorganised slightly

and looked like, I think, at worst, that they were going to get sort of a draw.

You couldn't see where Copenhagen's chances were coming from, let alone a goal.

And then, in the last sort of 10 minutes, there were, I think, you could look across that whole back four.

and between those two goals, I think Wanbissaka, Varan, Maguire, and Dallow could have all done better at various points for those two goals.

Maybe there was a bit of tiredness in there, you know, playing with 10 men, but

those are

it's a really difficult game to analyse because

I felt like Manchester United, and it is a low bar, but it was probably one of

their better performances, if not their best one,

you know, for

chunks of that game.

And I think Copenhagen definitely played the what I've seen a lot of their group games, and it was definitely the worst they've played.

And sometimes, football is just a bit silly, like that, isn't it?

Really, that you don't always get what you deserve.

No, and something's silly, Archie, about the Copenhagen winner, which comes from a shot that's so bad it doesn't even go out of play.

That's why everyone stops, and then Copenhagen realizes, oh, it's still in.

I mean, that is where Magic United's luck is at the moment.

It is.

I also, the amount of goals I've seen Andre Onana concede now, and and just think

he just looks different on the line to other normal goalkeepers when he's conceding, that makes me think, is he bad or is he,

what's going wrong there?

There's something about it that I can't get my head around.

Also, it was quite a satisfying net bulge as well that made me think, should he have been there before that as well?

Also, just to defend Copenhagen, albeit I understand where Barry's coming from on the seven years since the last Champions League win, but they've played quite well in the group so far.

They could have won against Bayern Munich, for example.

And Old Trafford wouldn't have really begrudged them a point, I think, either, given the way that that ended.

And it just so happens that in the game, they've probably performed the worst so far in the group because they were tuned up at Galatasaray and threw that away.

They've actually won it.

Albeit, it feels more like having watched that game that Manchester United lost it.

A wonderful moment, obviously, for Rooney Bargie,

17-year-old.

I don't know if he's...

Can you be 17 and be named after Wayne Rooney?

I don't know.

I mean, maybe you can, but probably, he probably...

Who knows?

2006?

No.

Remember the name 2004?

So yeah, it's possible, but spelt differently.

No.

Remember, the name was 2002.

Oh, was it?

Okay.

Well, there we go.

So possible.

Everton Arsenal.

We should know.

Does anybody want to talk about the

both penalties or the second penalty?

I thought the first one was more of a penalty than the second one.

That's

purely because, I mean, at least Maguire was facing the ball, and that feels slightly

more of a pen.

I don't like to see either of them be given.

I think we have gone over it before, but giving somebody

a near on 80% chance of scoring from

those kind of situations doesn't it doesn't sort of fit the

um you know it really doesn't fit the crime um so i i don't know where um

where we go because i mean a lot of people have complained and still do complain about consistency in officiating and i think the one thing that has been ultra um consistent in sort of champions league in recent years is that kind of handball for the penalty and people still don't like that so i i don't necessarily see a quick change in the law.

I think if you have got VAR,

you kind of need them parameters and guidelines to judge what a handball is.

I mean, there was a time when I think referees kind of just played it almost by common sense a lot of the time, but that becomes difficult to do when

everybody's demanding

more from them.

I'd be interested in what you thought, Max, given the clip I've seen of you with your head and your hands that has been circulating.

Yeah.

So they were filming me while the game was going on, and I just put my head in my hands because I just can't bear it.

And I think the important thing to point out is you can hate that law and still not agree with what Mikel Arteta said about referees on the Sunday, but lots of people see it as some sort of gotcha going, you can't question

anything now about football because you said just get on with it two days ago, because I think there is a marked difference between the two.

But I think it's fine to complain about decisions.

I think people's problem with Mikel Arteta is the fact he completely shat the bed and then doubled and trebled down in subsequent days.

This hand ball,

and it is turning into a fiasco.

They keep amending the law because of VAR.

And the more they amend it, the more...

complicated and unworkable it becomes so they have to re-amend it

And I'm not sure, short of sending players out who've had their arms surgically removed, I don't really know what's to be done unless they sort of go completely back to the drawing board and go, right,

this is it,

and simplify it, but I can't see that happening.

This goes back to what I was just saying about writing laws and how difficult it actually is, because there are just so many different things that happen

in a football game that kind of it's very difficult to cover everything where a lot of the time you just say use common sense.

And I think there was a time when referees did that more than they do now.

And people, while they still moaned, I think generally were happier.

But the handball law, how would you write it so that you were happy?

What is the law then that makes you happy with the handball law?

I don't know.

But not that.

I mean, actually, an interesting part of this was, and I'm not just deflecting and not answering your question,

was actually, it looked like Varan and Maguire both sort of fouled someone in the build-up, but the ref didn't see either of those because clearly they weren't clear and obvious.

But like the guy, it brushing the guy's arm is facing the wrong way is clear and obvious.

I would I'm leaning towards just getting rid of VAR completely if I was in charge of things, but I don't know.

I think what sums the absurdity of the handball law up in a nutshell really is when you see defenders say

trying to block across and they're standing with their hands behind their back, so they're deliberately moving their arms into a completely unnatural position to avoid their arms being judged to be in an unnatural position.

It's absolutely right.

So imagine I'd have lost nine of their opening 17 games in all competitions, first time since 73, 74.

That was the last season they were relegated.

Mark, do you agree with Barry that

this is some sort of ten-hard decide of the next game?

I think it'd be very difficult if he loses at home to Luton to,

with an international break around the corner, to kind of just stop that noise.

I wouldn't expect anything to happen until Radcliffe is in and kind of able to make the football decisions because until that moment, I don't know who would kind of hire and fire

the manager.

It feels very much like the end of the game when you start discussing the manager's future.

Not often that they kind of like see it out and then are still there in kind of 18 months' time, is it really?

When we're kind of discussing it after every game on Ted Hogg's future.

I don't think that this one was on Ted Hogg though.

You know, I think he has to take responsibility for

various aspects of United's bad start.

But this game in isolation,

yeah,

I don't feel like we can sort of stick the boot in too much.

But if you lose at home to Luton, the narrative becomes very strong.

Also in this group, Bayern beat Galatassarai 2-1.

They're unbeaten in their last 38 Champions League group stage games, 35 wins and three draws.

I mean, look, they it took them a while to score.

Galatassarai had that one that was so tight and disallowed beforehand.

They didn't have it all their own way, Archie.

No.

And

yeah,

I think

you're quoting that statistic about the fact that there are 38 games unbeaten in the Champions League, and yet it just doesn't represent the tightrope that you are always walking if you are the coach of Bayern Munich, as Thomas Tuchel is.

That the overall performance was again

around a six or a seven out of ten.

And there's been this whole Fiori in Germany about Thomas Tuchel against Diddy Harman

and Lota Mattheus in the press

after

Tuchel was exceedingly spiky with Skye at the weekend

because Harman and Matteus have said that there's been no real development.

in the style of play that Bayern have had.

Let's not forget they beat Borussia Dortmund 4-0 at the weekend, which was their best performance under Tuchel so far.

And Tuchel

was

really quite grumpy and spiky with Sky after that.

And it represents that, and part of this, and the background that needs to be said as well, is that Bayern were knocked out of the cup by third divisions Ubruken last week, which is huge, meaning that they're only fighting on two fronts now this season in the Champions League and in the Bundesliga.

And they've won all four Champions League games.

But again, that that doesn't really tell you what's happened in them because there've been some very tight wins in there and poor performances.

And yeah, to come back to why I mentioned poor performances,

if you look at the way that coaches at Bayern have been fired in the last decade, I don't think any of them has been what by you would define Max as normal standards.

It's all because it's not meeting Bayern's standards.

And that's what plays in the mind with Thomas Tuchel, particularly because they've shown that they're not afraid to sack someone in Julian Nagosman if they don't think they're going to get through in the Champions League.

And whilst they've only lost one game this season and the performance last night was okay, Harry Kane looks really good.

Overall, when you're playing at the level that Bayern are, which is you're playing against former versions of yourself, then

you might run into trouble at some point.

But I suppose we saw with getting rid of Naga's man, it doesn't really make doesn't necessarily

the right thing to do, right?

I mean,

how good a job do you think Tukal is doing?

If you'd asked me that before the Dortmund game, I would have said that Naga's men that sacking Nagasman still looked a bit odd, and it still does.

Like,

there's just so much going on at that club right now with

the hierarchy, the transfers i mean that there always is i just think that yeah the the way that they're playing hasn't really moved on that much since nargsman was there i they were dominating games to a large part but just uh

still

like the it was the background noise that was always churning away there so I think that if they play any significant opposition in the Champions League, they still don't look like they're in a position that they would go through.

And whilst I think many will look at their results and be like, they're one of the favourites right now, I would still question them.

I think of the Man United fans thinking, God, I'd take this version of things aren't going quite so well, aren't they?

38 games aren't beaten in the Champions League.

Harry Kane's doing really well, though, Max.

Are they top of the Bundesliga?

Are they?

Leverkusen, two points ahead of them.

Oh, Leverkusen, are they?

Doing really well.

Jackie Lonzo's flying, isn't he?

Going forward.

Victor Bonnyface up front.

Behind him, Florian Viertz, who is going to be a player for years to come Granite Shaka has also given them some much needed steel in midfield and they look like such a super well-oiled unit

still only 10 games into the season the only points that Labour Kusen have dropped so far this season have been against Bayern but you say dropped like going to the Alianzerina and drawing 2-2 is a very good result all right well that that'll do for part one part two we'll do the rest of Champions League games from last night

When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game.

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Workday, moving business forever forward.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Jamie says, I wanted to come to a football weekly live show for ages.

I was 30 recently, so a group of friends bought us all tickets to the London show on the 13th.

I was really excited for it, but as it happens, my partner has very kindly in brackets paid for a trip to Iceland at the same time.

Not to be deterred, my friends are going along without me, the bastards, have given my ticket to someone else.

So while the rest of them are enjoying the dulcet tones of Barry, I'll be up a volcano or something.

Hope you all have a great time, and I can get to another live show soon.

Yes, we are yet to plan Reykjavik away, but it is a love, you'll have a lovely time.

It's a great place for a mini break on Monday.

Still tickets available.

Me, Baz, Troy, Philippe, ellis it's not going to be empty by the way like i've sold quite a lot of tickets it's worth pointing out it's not like just the three of you listening thinking are we the only people going an intimate show no there's plenty of people coming and it'll be fun uh manchester on wednesday uh with john bruin nadia manuha and the will unwin anecdote plenty of production going into that as we speak and the live stream in under a couple of weeks from brighton on the 22nd available for a week on catch-up as well i'm sure i'll start tweeting relentlessly about that go to theguardian.com slash fw tour23 to group B then Arsenal in a great spot.

They beat Sevilla 2-0.

Mark, this was so straightforward for Arsenal.

Sevilla made loads of changes and just sort of almost didn't bother.

Yeah, I mean, from Arsenal's point of view, the perfect game really to bounce back from what happened at the weekend against Newcastle.

I think Michael Atetta will be really pleased, particularly with that first goal, because everything that kind of I suppose he wanted from that midfield and forward line is what he got.

You know, Declan Rice wins the ball high up the pitch.

Jorginho's Jorginho's pass is fantastic.

Saka

makes the run and Trossard playing as the striker kind of

as the easy bit to finish it all off.

And then Saka gets his goal in the second half and has been some question marks over Saka in last few matches.

Hasn't quite been as lively as what he has been and is he tired?

Have they rushed him back from the injury, etc.

But you know, he was looked on it against Sevilla, but I think it has to be taken in the context of who they were playing, Arsenal because Sevilla, as you say, Max, barely turned up.

They had one shot in the whole game, one corner.

They made eight changes.

They've got Bettis in a derby at the weekend, and I think they're under pressure.

New coach Diego Alonso, who hasn't done anything really to kind of improve things since he came in, feels like that's the more important game.

Unless they're trying to finish third, as they kind of always do, Sevilla, so they can win the Europa League.

And it's sort of all part of some big grand plan but

from a severe point of view if you if you put everything onto that derby and then you lose that

you know it puts the manager positioned in an even more difficult place but Arsenal always looked like they were going to dominate this group and sort of get through to the last 16 but we've seen other English teams sort of struggle at times in this competition this season so I think you have to respect sort of every win that you get but um this wasn't a great severe side yeah i thought martinelli was excellent based and saka was great as well and had to go off and there's you know saka's you know he's been injured but he does get kicked a lot that is not an arsenal conspiracy i think there is an issue with the sort of lack of protection for bakayo saka i don't know if i'm alone in that no i'd agree it's and it's not a recent phenomenon he he gets kicked around from pillar to post opposition players do it in rotation they normally get away with the first one and tend to, you know, he wins free kicks, but players don't get

generally get booked for kicking him around the place because they're quite clever about the manner in which they do it.

I thought he was outstanding last night.

So as you say, Gabriel Martinelli turned Juan Liu inside out.

The the Sevilla physios will be like unpicking the knots his

legs are in for quite some time today, you'd imagine.

But

it was kind of like kicking a blind man's stick really because as mark has pointed out sevilla were sevilla were really really poor they're on the second manager of the season they've only won three games out of 16 i think it is in all competitions and

i i was surprised by how bad they were actually i probably shouldn't have been until you know i was surprised by how bad they were until i went and looked at how they've been doing this season and it was no it shouldn't have been a surprise You know, things have not gone well when your first shot of your first and only shot of the game comes in the 96th minute.

That's not ideal.

It's not a good sign.

Archie, what's the German take on Kai Havertz?

Because he's still, you know, he missed a chance here.

They're still not totally sure where he's meant to go.

I still, I'm not sure if I know exactly.

I love watching him as a player.

I just don't know where to stick him.

He's the new Meza Erzil, by the sounds of it,

from what I hear Arsenal or English football fans talk about, the chance he had at the back post

was really super tame.

And it just kind of felt like he needed to attack it, and he didn't, and it just looked really bad.

I think

he's a wonderful player who needs to have things built around him.

And

the question is, is he going to be in the position for that luxury to happen for the way he's playing right now?

I think he is, he's a number 10 who has

who has done odd jobs on too many occasions,

meaning that he's kind of lost that

original position that he once had.

And someone just needs to be able to stick him in the same position and find that rhythm of knowing what he's got to do because I think that he's just been focused on doing doing too many different things and he needs to get back to playing in that one space again.

He is, he's seen as an excellent player here, but right now in Germany, he's not going to be the first choice number 10.

That's very much Jamal Musiala.

So I think, yeah, he needs to have a spell where he is playing in the same role again so he can truly find his feet.

I got sent just on that Arteta refereeing thing.

It's now in the Arsenal have to reply to the FA, FA can reply to Arsenal and they decided there's a charge or not.

There was an interesting video that I sent a couple of times by an influencer, I think, called Gunner King14,

who

feels there is some sort of orchestrated MSM conspiracy, and we're all trying to defend the PGMOL because we're paid by them.

Maybe we're not in the MSM.

I don't know.

But what he did do that was good and important, and perhaps we should have done was he went back and he looked at, you know, that quote that Arteta said about referees making mistakes.

and we all compare we did we compared that to what he said after the game and actually Arteta was at that time it was a few days after Spurs Liverpool and it was like a leading question about why referees don't referee certain games and it was sort of someone trying to ask him if there was some kind of conspiracy and he said no referees just make mistakes so he wasn't referring to the spurs liverpool game in fact after the spurs liverpool game he actually did come out and defend jurgen klop and said i hope they get what they deserve and so he actually whether you agree with him or not has been quite consistent in this so i thought probably worth correcting that um even if you disagree with his outburst which i and the arsenal statement which i tend to do but i just thought it was worth mentioning psv beat launch 1-0 uh luke de young with a big luke de young header uh in that so it means arsenal top of the group on nine psv and launch both have five points severe on two

um

let's go to group c uh where rail madrid have four out of four and uh union berlin finally archie didn't lose a football match uh in Naples.

The headline I've seen from some is that Union Berlin are out of the Champions League.

And I'm like, you didn't see how they celebrated at full time because they'd lost in all competitions their last 12 games.

And

understandably, when you lose 12 in a row, there is talk about the coach being fired.

However, Uz Fischer, whether it's having his name sung by the Union fans at the weekend when they lost 3-0 to Frankfurt, or with the programme notes by the president, Diet Singler has been roundly backed by the club,

saying that it's not about us being thankful for what he's achieved.

It's about the fact that he's the best guy to get us out of it as well.

And to even if, look, if this is not prime Napoli from last season, it's still a very good point to go and get

and to just break.

break that run in in some way.

They've got to go to Bayeleva Kusin at the weekend, which is going to be difficult.

The reason that they are having all these problems, I think, is because they went a little bit too football manager with their signings in the summer.

Leonardo Benucci, who I remember kind of raving to you, I couldn't believe that he was there, has not turned out to be a good signing.

And I think that the dynamic that they had at the club where they didn't sign names, and then you change that, and you're doing that for the first time, and there's a certain pressure to play these players that wasn't there before

has wrecked things for them.

They are in the bottom three of the Bundesliga right now.

I expect them to still get out of it, but yeah, injuries haven't helped.

The fact that Rani Kadera has not played much, that is the brother of Sami Kadira, he's been excellent when he's played for them.

So, yeah, I still expect them to survive, but a good night for them.

And yeah, David Datro Fafana, who was suspended because he didn't shake Orzfisher's hand coming off in the reverse game

Napa um against Napoli uh scoring the goal um I have to say I was a bit surprised that he had a celebration ready with Giraldobeck I was like you've lost the last 12 games in a row and it's like we've still had this ready to go we've still had this ready to go

it's like it is like you know do those players are there lots of players currently playing with a t-shirt on that they just haven't been able to expose for years and years and years because you know they just go i haven't scored that goal yet um at the burnaba mark a t-shirt celebrating the birth of a child who's now nine years old.

I'm not, I'm not that fussed about the millennium bug, you know.

Um, anyway, uh, at the burnabau mark, uh, Madrid beat Braga 3-0.

It was straightforward in the end, but Braga did miss that penalty early on, and you just can't do that.

No, Jallo inside five minutes, you know, gifted a great opportunity to go 1-0 up.

Real Madrid, it was a typical Real Madrid Champions League group stage performance, really, where

they don't look great and Braga actually have more possession in the game and were well in it until Vinicius made it 2-0.

You sort of felt like maybe there was something there for them, but ultimately they've got that quality in the final third with Vinicius, with Rodrigo.

Brahim Diaz, who has been moaning about his lack of minutes, came in for the injured dude Bellingham, scored the opening goal.

He'd already scored once, but it was ruled out by VAR.

So he did a VAR celebration, sort of doing the old screen with his fingers when he did manage to put Real Madrid 1-0 up.

And yeah,

I think Braga, a bit like Copenhagen, where we were saying earlier on, probably played better than kind of the group stage table suggests.

They've been in a lot of matches and it's just been the, I suppose, the fine details that have gone against them, which is probably the difference between the best teams and the others.

But, you know, if they can finish third in the group, and

they'll probably still expect to do that,

it still can be a successful campaign for Braga.

But Real Madrid will need to improve, but they usually do.

Yeah, so Real Madrid have four wins from four.

Napoli have seven points, Braga three, Union Berlin one.

Finally, Group D, Real Sociedad and Inter, both on 10 points.

Real Sociedad's 3-1 win over Ben Fica.

And

they mark our kind of the surprise package we think yeah

in the reverse game I said after that that they could be kind of this season's Ben Fica in the way that everybody gets excited about them and I mean Free New up inside 20 minutes they their football is a joy to watch they're very aggressive in the press one of the goals

is is through that you know chasing the ball down forcing a mistake from Ben Fica there's also a goal from Moreno that's ruled out for hand ball

that involves three dummies on a free kick before they eventually put the ball in.

So, you know, they are a creative team, full of invention.

At the weekend, they definitely should have got something against Barcelona and conceded in the 92nd minute.

There's always one of these types of teams that people speak about as a dark horse, and you wouldn't want to fancy getting them in the last 16.

They never seem to...

go that far um and and it's still quite a long time before the knockout stages um it wasn't that in February of the Champions League.

So they might be a completely different team by then, but definitely a fun team to watch.

And, you know, if you do get to watch a Spanish team outside of the obvious ones, then I suggest you watch Toshi Dad.

In the other game, Inter 1-1-0 in Salzburg, Lautaro Martinez in the 85th minute with a penalty, which was a handball.

So I obviously just don't want it to be given, but it probably...

was a handball.

So,

you know, I will let that one go in my campaign.

And that'll do it for part two.

Part three, we'll look ahead to the Premier League weekend.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Aranti says, as one of the only remaining football podcasts prepared to call out some of the not-so-shiny and nice aspects of our game.

Can you call out Luton fans for their tragedy chanting?

And even worse, the club's poor excuse for a statement slash non-apology justice for the 97.

Yeah Liverpool have written to Luton asking what they're going to do about the tragedy chanting from their supporters on Sunday they were condemned by the FA in fact

Jamie Carragher mentioned it in commentary on Super Sunday during the game they've asked Liverpool have asked Luton for answers over whether they followed new Premier League guidance which includes in-stadia action on the perpetrators warnings over the tani and what they're going to do about it next.

I'm going to read you the Luton statement.

It says Luton Town Football Club is saddened by reports of inappropriate chanting towards Liverpool supporters during yesterday's Premier League fixture at Kenilworth Road.

The atmosphere inside the stadium was electric for the most part of a pulsating game in which Rob Edwards' side came close to pulling off one of the results of the season.

While we do not wish to dampen the atmosphere at our home ground in any way, we're extremely disappointed that a small number of supporters soured the occasion with chants that may be interpreted as being in relation to tragedies that have affected Liverpool FC in the past.

The club condemns any kind of chanting that knowingly seeks to to divide and our safety and security team launched an internal investigation at the earliest opportunity.

What has quickly become evident is that a number of people may have taken part without knowledge that the words were used in relation to the Hillsborough and Heisel tragedies.

And we see the route to persuading supporters not to repeat these chants in future is through communication and education.

On this basis, we're reviewing CCTV and media footage from the match and we'll speak to witnesses to identify individuals who may have taken part.

Any perpetrators could face stadium bans and potential criminal prosecutions.

It's a kind of mixed statement, Barry.

I mean, A, what's the point of saying what a game it was?

That is irrelevant.

And how quickly have they found out that all these people didn't know these chants had anything to do with Heisel and Hillsborough?

It seems a very odd, quite defensive statement to me.

Yeah, it's a bit half-harsed, all right.

I mean, even from straight, the opening line, Luton Football Club was saddened by reports of inappropriate chanting.

There weren't reports of it.

inappropriate there was inappropriate chanting we all heard it jamie carrager remarked on it there are are fans who will argue tooth and nail that the chanting question, always the victims, we know the one it is,

is not about Hillsborough, but

it is.

And

Hillsborough, people who have been impacted by Hillsborough, directly impacted, you know, they are offended by it.

So, you know, just don't chant it.

I mean, the statement, it kind of improves towards the end, a bit you didn't read out.

We would like to wholeheartedly apologize to anyone offended you know you don't need to add that caveat just apologize unreservedly the bit you mentioned where it's a what has quickly become evident is that a number of people may have taken part without knowledge that the words were used in relation to hillsborough in high school i i guess they're going on what they've seen on twitter where quite a lot of fans will attempt to justify the chance by saying it's it's not about hillsborough it is so yeah it's not a great statement

They should just go, look, we're sorry.

We'll ensure it doesn't happen, try to ensure it doesn't happen again.

And people who

are guilty or found to have been chanting will be punished, whether that's a

ban or whatever.

You know, Luton fans aren't the only ones who do this.

They happen to be the ones who were doing it on this occasion.

And,

yeah, I think the club

should have done better with their statement.

Yeah, I mean, Luke Luton have

definitely, I think, missed on this one, and they've done a lot of good work in recent years.

So it's disappointing that I think they've kind of got this one so wrong.

Before the Tottenham versus Liverpool game, I actually,

as a ticket holder for that game, I received an email from Tottenham.

I think the headline, the subject was tragedy chanting.

And it kind of went into,

you know, well, don't do it, essentially and, you know, why you shouldn't do it.

And I thought,

I really don't need to be told this.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that you, you know, why would you sing

about something so horrific?

But,

you know, maybe that, you know, if Luton do believe that their fans were unaware, maybe,

and for future clubs, maybe that there does need to be some kind of reminder ahead of those games because, you know, I'm not sure it will make a difference, but at least then the club can say say they've done more to kind of try to inform their supporters.

Yeah, I mean, look, there will be some who didn't know.

And I think

I've written about this before.

I judge a 17-year-old singing

stupid shit in a very different way to a 40-year-old.

You know, you're going along, you're not really sure what you're doing, you don't think you're 17.

I mean, I, and that is not, you know, I've never, when I was 17, I sung stupid shit at football.

I didn't sing tragedy chanting because it, I don't know if it existed, maybe it didn't.

And I don't think I would have done, but I don't know.

But I definitely sang stupid stuff when I was 17 that I wouldn't do now.

But yes, it's a club's responsibility.

I think it's a club's responsibility.

It's not just to always just your instant reaction to defend your fans.

It's to call them out, right?

If you want to do it properly.

And that's not just Luton, that's everyone else, right?

It's not, you know, yes, you have to, they are, they are a huge part, the biggest part of your football club, but that doesn't mean that they don't deserve censure when they do.

And on this occasion, they did.

We mentioned Man United Luton, you know, had that great result.

It was a great result against Liverpool, so that they could go to Old Trafford.

I don't think they'll fear going to Old Trafford.

Well, that's another thing I take issue with in their statement where they said, described the game as being one in which Rob Edwards' side came close to pulling off one of the results of the season.

I would argue they did pull off one of the results of the season.

Yeah, I suppose it shows their aspirations, doesn't it?

Liverpool played Brentford Arsenal at home to Burnley.

Uh, the early kickoff Wolves Tottenham.

I mean, it'll be very interesting, Mark, to see what side Tottenham have and to see how they react to their first and quite big implosion of the season.

Yeah, I'm, yeah,

it's already been mentioned, isn't it, on the pod about sort of you know, the ramifications of the defeat and kind of the fact that they're missing.

I think Barry referenced it, you know, to be without both of your centre-backs and your left-back is

difficult for any team to cover.

Um, you know, Ashum Eric Dyer will come in as one of the two centre-backs.

Then

on the left-hand side,

I mean, Emerson, I think, can just play there, Emerson Ryo.

I don't see that as being a massive issue, even if he's not as good as Udogi.

The sort of other centre-back positions are going to be the really interesting one.

Ben Davis can and has played there before, but he's also been injured.

Hoiberg didn't have a terrible game playing there

against Chelsea, but wouldn't be the natural fit.

I mean, if Ange is kind of as good as his word, I mean, he said he'll, you know, he'll play the young players if they deserve it.

And Ash Phillips that signed from Blackburn, he's been talking him up in sort of press conferences.

So this would be an opportunity potentially for someone like Phillips and the Spurs

Academy are very excited by Dorrington as well that's coming through.

I mean, you know,

I would expect him to go down that route and stick one of the younger players in.

I mean, you know, why would you have them in the squad

if they can't play against a team in the sort of bottom half of the Premier League?

I have more of a question

for Barry and Mark, and indeed you, Max, just with

your experience of how it generally works with when somebody becomes the media's darling, like Ash Postakoglu has.

How long do you give it until the tide turns against him?

Because

I can't remember seeing anything like this in English football like

since Klopp, I would say.

Like, there seemed to be kind of this good, like, oh, what a great everyman.

Love to go for a drink with this guy.

And it just seems inevitable that at some point he will say something and it's just going to like, the wheels will turn and then it will be, never liked him anyway.

I don't know.

I just can't.

I can't remember a time when I realize this, this has become less a question, hasn't it?

you can stop it now we've got the question we've got the gist of it there we go there we go when you when you get a chance apart from sending out a second string side in the carabao cup that got beaten he hasn't really put a foot very happy about that yeah very happy about that he hasn't really put a foot wrong yet so there's not much to criticize him for what will happen at some point is that uh an egregious refereeing decision will go against his side and then 100 million Arsenal fans will all wade in to go,

you know, gotcha.

And it won't be the gotcha they think it is unless he spectacularly spits the dummy, which seems unlikely because

it's not really his style, but it would be funny if that did happen.

It seems funny.

It seems unlikely.

You know, Jürgen Klopp...

as Archie said, was a media darling, but he does have a bit of a nasty side to him when things aren't going his way, and he can be quite rude and curt and sarcastic in interviews.

So, I suppose if Tottenham, after that Chelsea game, you know, even though they lost 4-1, he was sort of getting lavished with praise.

Praise I think he deserves.

Other opinions are available, but yeah, if they start losing a few games, then I presume the tide may turn in Australia, Rachie.

Never, I would tell you this.

Literally, literally, never I say this is somebody who likes him as well like yeah and I'm just

kind of you can't not everybody yeah I think there's so much there's so much going on in the world right now that the problem with football is that you then like you hang it on like oh well there's this one guy there's this one guy who seems to be good and I want him to be good and then it's yeah I just sadly know how it ends I don't think there are there's definitely sections of other supporters that are now getting quite annoyed with the poster coglu loving.

I think that is

clearly obvious.

Palace by Everton, Chelsea, Man City, really big game, Baz.

And look, Chelsea weren't great in that 4-1 win, but they've got to at least emerge with some confidence, right?

When they come into this game, do you think City should go down to nine minutes as well and see how they

do then?

Nicholas Jackson presumably will be very confident after his hat-trick.

I think Chelsea could get absolutely monstered in this game.

But we shall see.

As 4-1 wins don't come much less convincing than that one against Spurs, but it is a win, and they are at home, and they have a striker who will be full of confidence.

But

I still think they could get a hiding here.

Are we sure about his confidence?

He did score a hat-trick.

I mean, he did score a hat-trick.

He did, but like, he didn't, like, he didn't really have to do much for it.

And

I think having mentioned about kind of celebrations where

earlier, where you're like, should you really be celebrating?

Like, the way that he rotated through the Rashford, the Ronaldo celebrations after each of his goals.

And I saw someone on Twitter say it reminded them of the Michael Owen, Neville South Hall, well done, mate, he's 13

thing, where you're just like, how much of an achievement is it to score these goals?

Oh, Neville Southall, what a hero.

I mean, he's such a hero.

He's a hero for that cleave and for so many other reasons, but it's such an amazing, it's such a great piece of television, isn't it?

Archie, you wanted to talk about the protests in your fuller minute.

They go to Villa at the weekend.

Yeah.

After lots of years of talking about it with you, it happened inevitably that against Manchester United on the 18th minute.

In the 18th minute, there were thousands of yellow cards held up by our fans protesting the 18%

season ticket price rise that there has been on top of the match day ticket price rise.

I want to come back to a point that was made earlier in the Luton

Liverpool chat

just about, I don't know, the way fans are attacking each other.

It's a different,

it's different but similar in that the lack of solidarity that football fans show amongst each other is why

they're ultimately, I think, is dooming the chances of campaigns like Fulham's

from there being meaningful change when it comes to ticket prices across the board.

And

I say this because Man United fans chanted what what the fucking hell is that when uh Fulham are holding up the yellow cards.

I'm like, surely we should all be trying to support each other with this kind of stuff.

I mean, particularly when, like, embarrassingly for Fulham, no, embarrassingly for the Fulham owners, that when United scored, you could see people in the Fulham end jumping up and cheering.

And it's like, well, that's because when you put the ticket prices that high, then it's more likely that a Man United fan is going to pay for that for one of the occasions that they're down in London for.

So, yeah, I wish that football fans would get together more and be able to see through, or sorry, English football fans would get together more and be able to see through what the actual point of all this is.

But I sadly fear that one-upmanship,

no matter what, always seems to take over.

And that's sad.

I thought,

I wondered if it was just, you know, Fulham fans, such a nice family club.

They would just love to see goals.

So they were just so delighted to see a goal in injury time that they all just stood up and cheered that Bruno Fernandez finished.

But no, you make a very serious point, and you're right.

And actually, the Football Supporters Association is something that everybody should join and be a part of as a collective.

And they also have the awards for a podcast of the year, which we've been nominated for.

So go to the

We Are the FSA.

What a segue.

Thanks so much.

Well, that's why it's such a great podcast, segues like that.

How could you possibly not vote for us?

Our mate, Paul Watson, says, My honest theory is: clubs employ Phil Neville just for the boost it gives everyone when they sack him.

He's become the coach of Portland Timbers.

That's not gone down brilliantly, has it?

Portland fans were

quite vociferous in their

antagonism towards this appointment.

They lobbied the club's owners to change their mind and appoint someone else.

They dredged up these

sexist tweets, which Phil Neville put out in

I think 12 years ago.

2011.

Yeah, 2011.

12 years ago, which he has since apologised for when they were dredged up

during his time as England women's managers.

And

whatever about the tweets,

his record as a manager is very poor.

He was not great with England, with the lionesses.

He was diabolical at Miami.

And

I can kind of understand

why the Portland fans don't want him, but the club's owners seem to think, you know, have argued that their appointment process was incredibly thorough and they believe he's the right man for the job.

Mike says, what are Mark's thoughts on the fact that legendary announcer Al Michaels has never knowingly eaten a vegetable?

Is this the way forward?

I mean, I've been sentenced a few times.

I'm not our American listeners will obviously know who Al Michaels is.

I'm not hugely aware of this channel.

The only reason I know, Max, is if you've been sent in a few times, I've been sent in

a few thousand times.

So,

yeah, I mean,

yeah, I mean, good on Al, I would say.

I mean, you know, just

eat what you want within reason.

He's 78 years old, zero vegetables.

He's got work to do to get his record, Mark.

Sykes says, not a question, just an FYI.

For you and the team, I saw Billy Joe Armstrong in King's Cross walking along the canal towpath just across the water from the Guardian offices a couple of months ago.

There we are.

Could have got a meet and greet for Sid, couldn't we?

Luke says, I walk my dog every morning on the earwash canal that runs through Long Eaton.

Who do I see most mornings in the summer months?

None other than Gary Burtles.

I fondly remember my chat with him after the playoffs semi-final that Forrest won on penalties.

Me, fucking hell, Burtles, yep.

Great chat.

And still on dogs.

Gage.

Gage says, I currently have a Labrador called Max.

If I got another dog, which dog should I get?

And should I call it Barry?

Barry?

I'd be wholeheartedly in favour of anyone naming a dog after me or indeed a child, whatever.

It's the nearest thing I'll get to an heir.

Well, I think for a dog, Barry, you should have.

I sort of think a bulldog is

quite accurate.

Really?

No.

Well, actually, I don't know.

What's a very sedentary dog?

I feel

they're quite sort of bottom-heavy.

They're just sort of there, aren't they?

That's sort of how i see you as a sort of constant just there you know it's meant in an affectionate way doesn't sound particularly affectionate

but i take it back anyway that'll do for today uh cheers archie thanks max uh cheers mark thank you max uh cheers barry woof

weekly is produced by joel grove with silas gray our executive producer is max sarners and we'll be back on monday and then we haven't mentioned it we have a live show on monday night at Troxy in East London.

Theguardian.com/slash fw tour 23.

If you could bring a couple of hundred mates, that might fill it up.

This is The Guardian.