Dortmund do double over Newcastle and Milan beat PSG – Football Weekly Extra

This is the Guardian.

Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Get the feeling we won't completely forget about Monday night football this time, but we'll start with the Champions League Newcastle, sometimes brilliant, sometimes a bit tired, and so it proved in Dortmund.

The latter, at least, another defeat, leaving them bottom of the group.

Meanwhile, a stirring performance at the San Siro as AC Milan got their first goals and first victory in the competition this season, beating PSG Olivier Giroux.

We'll still be doing this in 100 years' time.

Result of the night comes in Hamburg.

Miles from home, at home, Shaktar Donek stun Barcelona and leave that group wide open.

78-year-old Pepe scoring for Porto in the other game.

In more expected things, Erling Haaland scores some goals and Celtic get hammered.

And then to the Spurs Stadium.

Plenty of time for Tottenham 1, Chelsea 4.

Fair to say, it doesn't tell the whole story, but we'll do the goals, disallow goals, red cards, VAR, high lines, and his old man yelling at clouds.

His words, not mine.

Of course, we'll have some more Gary Bertles, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, hello.

Hiya.

Jonathan Faduba, welcome.

Hello, Max.

And Nikki Bandini, hi.

Hi.

Let's start with Group F then, the group of death.

Dortmund beating Newcastle 2-0, AC Milan beating PSG 2-1.

James says, did Eddie Howe get his team selection wrong by not starting Stuart Atwell or Andy Madley for this

tricky away fixture?

Let's save that stuff for part three, shall we?

Baz, we've seen Newcastle look tired for a bit, and then they woke up, and they were great against Man United and great against Arsenal.

But, you know, it's such a relentless season.

And in both these games against Dortmund, they just haven't quite been at it.

I wouldn't necessarily agree they were great against Arsenal, they were good enough to win, but I don't think it was brilliant performance by them.

And I think it's important to mention the number of players they have out through injury: Harvey Barnes, Isaac, Dan Byrne,

Elias Anderson, Jacob Murphy, Sven Bottman, Sandra Tanali, who's not injured but suspended, Matt Target.

So they're all unavailable.

That's quite a number of key players in that list.

But they were pretty much second best all night last night.

I think they weren't on it.

They could possibly have rescued something from the game if Joel Linton had scored that header, which he put wide when scoring looked easier from a great cross by Tino Livramento, who I thought played very well for Newcastle.

They went the goal down, and then when they were chasing the game, which they had to do because they were going to be bottom of the group if they didn't get anything from it,

They got just caught on a counter-attack.

I think Kieran Tripier took a terrible free kick and the ball was cleared upfield and it was then Branton Savitzer in a one-on-one against Liveramento

who couldn't really do much about it.

Brant went alone and scored and that was very much that.

So I don't think Newcastle can have any complaints.

They weren't good enough to beat that Dortmund team.

And it's the Dortmund team that has been conceding a lot of goals.

They got trounced at the weekend at home by Byron Munich.

I think people are saying Newcastle's hopes of getting into the knockout stages are hanging by a thread.

I'm not so sure that's the case.

There's only three points between them and Dortmund who topped the group.

So

I'd still give them a chance.

Yeah, Dortmund top on seven, PSG on six, Milan on five, Newcastle on four.

I guess they've got to go to Paris next.

And I think PSG away is slightly different to PSG at home.

It's interesting, Nikki, when we talk about injuries, because quite often, and it was, you know, it was important that Baz picked it up, is we sort of say, well, they had lots of injuries, but still, and this is like a really key part to any season, isn't it?

Like, if you lose all your, if you lose so many players,

that is a real thing that can happen and can really affect things.

And if the luck of not having loads of injuries helps a team win tournaments.

Yeah, I feel like one of the annual conversations I end up having is like the Champions League is about timing.

Champions League is always about timing every season.

And when I say that, often what I'm referring to is you get to that first knockout round in February and teams are often in a very different place to where they were in the group stage.

And the group stage is, it's just all about getting through.

Like, obviously, first place and second place can make a difference to a draw, but really it's just get through is the important part of it.

And completely true, what Baz just said, that the injuries and absences are a part of it.

Clearly, yes, Sandra Tenali is not an injury, but Sandra Tanali was brought in specifically to give them a bit more know-how in games like this.

And you look back to last season, he was often influential in games like this for Milan in sort of giving that little bit of character and understanding of what it takes to get you over the line.

I think it's sort of oversimplifying and yet still true that the game is about goals.

Dortmund have, as Baz just alluded to, considered 15 goals in 10 Bundesliga games.

Newcastle had easily enough of the ball and

enough of the areas of the pitch as well.

I mean, I thought they were actually quite effective down the wings, Livermenton and Joel Linton, in getting some spaces to do something.

They just didn't have the final ball, all except for that one to Joe Linton, which he really should score.

Yeah, and actually, Jonathan, like massively important for Dortmund, especially

after getting absolutely hammered by Bayern in De Classica.

Yeah,

they were really, really bad against Bayern.

And doing the double over Newcastle kind of makes you question who is the real Dortmund, really, because I don't know if it's just a thing

against Bayern.

It seems to be, because they seem to sort of treat them with minimal respect, Bayern.

But they bounced back really well.

And obviously, it's a massively important win for them.

I thought Julian Brandt was really good.

He sort of stepped up where Jude Bellingham has sort of...

left a bit of a gap.

It's hard to sort of feel Jude Bellingham's shoes, but...

A bit of a gap is perhaps an understatement.

Yeah.

but brand's stepped in and done done really well this season um and took his goal brilliantly uh and the amy sort of looked sharp as well in spells in the match so yeah it's a really important win for dorman and it makes the group really interesting them it's it's it's an exciting group and i think uh for newcastle i think next they're playing psg away so that you know that's a tough game and they're probably gonna have to get something from that to to realistically have a chance of going through i think to quote a former newcastle manager they have to go to paris and get something.

And actually, would you love it if they did?

Quite hard, PSG Newcastle Baz.

Would you love that?

No, I wouldn't love it.

You're sort of indifferent.

You go to the end of that, and I'm indifferent.

It changes the Keegan quote.

They have to go to Paris and get something, and I am indifferent to the outcome of that game.

On that subject, there were protests before the game from Dorman fans aimed at the Newcastle zoners.

Gold bars, producer at Silas put in brackets, not real gold.

Thanks for clarifying that being thrown onto the pitch.

My understanding, Max, is it wasn't a protest against Newcastle zoners.

It was a protest against

UEFA's plans to...

I initially thought they were ripping the piss out of Newcastle, throwing fake money and fake gold bars, but it was actually a protest against UEFA's plans to

increase the size and format of the competition.

And they held up a banner depicting Gianni Infantino, Nasser Al Khalifi, the owner or chairman of PSG, and Andrea Agnelli, chairman of Juventus.

So it wasn't actually anything to do with Newcastle, as far as I am aware.

I thought that Tifo was of the Rubin brothers.

It was Infanta

Al-Khalifi and Agnelli.

The guy on the the right has a hat with feet, so that's Agnelli.

Yeah, in Mags's defense, I remember looking at that TV during the game going, is that Agnelli?

Because it sort of looks like him, but it's maybe not

the best image I've ever seen of him.

But yes, the hat is a giveaway.

There was an amazing symmetry between the two games in this group because, yes, you had Dortmund's fans throwing their gold bars around.

And then Milan's supporters were throwing fake dollar bills at Donaruma because, of course, he is Dolaruma to their fans because he left them to take the money at PSG.

Yeah well look Newcastle do have work to do and as you mentioned

the Milan fans didn't they didn't welcome Donnaruma back did they Nikki

and but they won and actually it was a brilliant so the first half was brilliant I thought in this game it sort of petered out a little bit in the second half

but I mean did you see where this result coming because I certainly didn't given both sides form.

No, I mean Milan came off an absolutely dreadful defeat at the weekend to Udineza who had been themselves having a dreadful season up to that point.

I think it was literally their first win of the season, Udineze.

So Milan did not come into this game hot.

Obviously, in the Champions League, they hadn't scored a goal yet.

I do think there's been this sort of the narrative of Milan's Champions League to date is slightly informed by,

in the same way as the Newcastle game, I guess, informed by...

just have they been able to stick the ball in the net?

Because my personal opinion is that they were the better team against Newcastle in the first game and they were the better team against Dortmund in the second game.

They just didn't score in either of those two matches.

Against Paris-Saint-Germain in the third game, they were dreadful.

And I think so the combination of no goals and that recency bias of the most recent game being awful

maybe sort of overemphasised how we were framing their performances.

But they certainly didn't seem to be

at their best point of this season either, because the last four games were a defeat to Juventus, a defeat to Paris-Saint-Germain, a draw with Napoli and then a defeat to Audinese.

So no wins in four games.

I didn't see this performance coming.

And yet at the same time, I would say it's a performance that I would have believed they had in them somewhere because Rafael Leal is this player.

He's capable of doing what he did.

And I thought the first goal they scored was, he was just exceptional.

It was

not just the finish, because before you can get to that, I thought the reverse pass was...

brilliantly executed, really sort of sold it to create the chance the first place.

And then after Giroux's shot is saved and you think, oh, that's a great chance missed,

the commitment to sell out and get yourself twisted around to make that overhead kick.

He was brilliant.

And Leo has that absolutely in his game.

I think one of the big differences and perhaps something that has been missing in some of these games that Milan haven't won is the performance of Ruben Loftus Cheek, of course, who's been injured.

So good.

Yeah, I mean, this is, of course, the story of Ruben Loftus Cheek's cheek's career he's he's been injured and that's that set him back but transformative in in what his did his runs were doing for them the the line breaking the the sort of way he advanced the team i thought he was really really brilliant last night um maybe the listeners are bored with would barry have scored that header but i was slightly disappointed to get no questions on that front barry on the olivier giroux the ageless i mean he's 37 so he is aging i i guess but it's just you know he just keeps on doing it giroux i mean all i saw in this game was a goal, but

yeah, he's a brilliant player and a very handsome man.

And

I envy him.

I bet he smells lovely as well.

But he keeps delivering.

He's 37.

No sign of him really slowing down because he's always been quite slow, I suppose.

But

what a player.

Yeah, and I suppose, Jonathan, there's no, like, when you see him on a team sheet, your eyes don't light up.

Like, you're not excited.

But like he's France's top goal scorer ever.

And when you think of the competition for French centre forwards, he's a total joy.

Yeah, I mean, it's strange to think that he left Arsenal kind of five years ago now, four or five years ago.

He left when he was 32, going 33.

And you would have thought that's kind of that's kind of it for his career.

But his career has probably markedly improved since leaving Arsenal.

He went to Chelsea, won the Europa League, beating Arsenal obviously in the final.

And then he's kind of done really well in continental competitions.

competitions and like you said becoming France's all-time top scorer I mean the cross from Hernandez was fantastic as well by the way it was brilliant brilliant ball into the box kind of asking to be headed in but Jiru's just got that technique that makes makes it so aesthetic it's pretty clichéd but you say aged like a fine wine I guess there was a contrast I felt like as well in sort of the

the ability to influence this one between Mbappe and Giru because Mbappe is clearly the more talented footballer and and no one's ever going to no one reasonably is ever going to dispute that.

But it did feel like

in this specific game, and I think perhaps it's felt like this a few times this season, Mbappe didn't quite stand up in the way that the PSU needed him to.

On the notes for Donna Rumour, it said Mercenario, which I think we all understand.

And the number 71, Barry.

Yeah, I heard James Horncastle explain this to Jimbo

on the highlights show on TNT.

Apparently, in Naples, there's a local lottery and the number 71

is

in some way symbolic and I think it's it's unlucky or and it symbolizes a man of

ill repute and no value, something along those lines.

But it is it's deeply insulting I think.

Yeah, but there's the 71 is

Luomodimerda, which is, you know,

it's a bad word.

Right.

Yes.

Anyway, the group is perfectly poised.

And, uh you know for the tape i've gone back to look at that ti vo and really the guy on the right looks much more like one of the reubens than uh aniele but my apologies uh uh to you know newcastle fans that as barry often says the three that still listen to us uh it wasn't a protest aimed at you

he is wearing that particular reuben brother is wearing a fiat hat max he is something of a giveaway yeah but i mean it's about it's annele from about 50 years ago isn't it um and like and fantino looks like he's got a big sort of buffon hair, like, you know, maybe it's the way it's folded, but it looks like he's sort of like Kent Brockman, doesn't he?

Anyway,

it's not for me to criticise the Tifos of Brussie Dortmund.

They make better ones than I would.

Anyway, to group H, Shaktar beat Barcelona, right?

So this group is now open because Porto beat Antwerp.

Antwerp had done four games, four defeats, but Shaktar have six points now from four games.

Barcelona and Porto have nine points each.

Shaktar play Antwerp next, and Barcelona play Porto in like a massive game.

And this result, Adam Crafton tweeting, Shaktal beat Barcelona with a lineup of nine Ukrainians, a Georgian and an 18-year-old Brazilian.

Only four of those Ukrainians started a game for their country during the last international break.

Spectacular upset, and that's before you remember they're functioning in a war.

They're not even playing at home.

They're playing in Hamburg.

They can't fly direct from Donex to Hamburg.

They have to get a bus to the border and then fly from there.

And actually, Jonathan, the victory was richly deserved as well.

Yeah, massively deserved.

To be fair, if it wasn't for Tej Vagan, then it would have been a lot worse for Barcelona, to be honest.

He made some fantastic saves.

Sikhan up front, Danilo Sikhan scored a great goal.

Another really good cross, by the way, from Gojo Leshvili.

I believe that's the way of pronouncing it, hopefully.

But yeah, brilliant ball into the box.

And I don't know if it's like

just a recent trend or if it's just this game week, but there seems to be some, seems to have been some really good crosses into the box, which I know one of the UEFA technical reports sort of commented that there's like more success in the modern game and kind of cutbacks than crosses.

But these two, the Giru header and the Secan header, definitely throwbacks to sort of Duncan Ferguson booth of a header.

But yeah, Shakto are really good.

And like you say,

when you're watching the game, you don't really think about all the issues that they're facing for their players as well.

And it must be a lot to take in and deal with.

But they outplayed Barcelona, to be honest.

And Barcelona kind of...

you know, they're a good team, but they've got sort of players like Marcus Alonso in the team and Christensen and sort of like sort of old Premier League reserve or throwback players mixed with sort of the likes of Lewandowski.

So they're quite a strange team.

Aureo Romeo obviously started in centre midfield, former Southampton midfielder.

But next to Ilkai Gundagan and Gavi.

So it's yeah, it's a very sort of hotchpotch side, Barcelona.

At times they're really, really good and at times they're not so good.

And I think definitely in this match, Shakto had the better of them and it was a really, really good performance.

I guess with the technical reports you're talking about, you know, cutbacks, V crosses, I suspect Manchester City are seriously skewing the old cutback.

Definitely statistics.

We need them to re-sign Andy Hinchcliffe.

Did he play for them for a bit?

Andy Hinchcliffe?

He was at City for a bit, wasn't he?

Obviously, him to Duncan Ferguson is very much an Everton thing.

Robin Cowan was doing the commentary for the world feed, and she messaged me to say, look, they have been brilliant.

Their centre half.

Rakitsky is the portly lad at five aside who turns out to be the best player on the pitch.

And obviously, like, he's clearly, like, probably incredibly ripped.

He's like, he's like a footballing Ellis James, but

in comparison to all the other players on the pitch, he does look like a sort of portly man with a beer gut.

And it was just a total joy to see him.

And I don't know if you saw the scenes at the end, Nikki.

They were so happy.

And it was just so, it's just such an

absolutely amazing result.

Yeah, I mean, it's an astonishing...

It's an astonishing result, Shakta have been.

I mean, Shakto have been having to play away from their home for so many years now and have been, when you look at it in that context, an absolutely astonishingly consistent football side, actually, in terms of being able to be competitive in Europe so many seasons.

But of course, beating bus loner is always special.

Yeah, any other game in this group, the oldest player in the group stage of the Champions League scored a goal, Pepe, 40 years old, the oldest ever Champions League scorer, 40 and 254 days.

You are 40 until you're 51.

So, no, you are.

No, I'm 50.

Until you're 51.

That's a good deal.

You're 40 until you're 41.

It works better if you get these lines right, doesn't it?

Anyway, it wasn't written down, of course.

So, next week, as I said, Barcel Porto, huge, and it'd be fascinating to

say next week.

So, next up, in three weeks' time now, Barceporto, absolutely massive.

That'll do for part two.

One.

That'll do for part one.

Your head's gone, Max.

It has gone.

That's cheap.

Your head is gone.

I'm in the tumble dryer.

That'll do for part one.

Part two will begin at the Etihad.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Martin says, just got a ticket for London.

Really looking forward to the show.

It was the promise of a ripped Ellis James that really sold it to me.

Emerton Guna.

The journey to a live football weekly begins in a quiet and reassuringly on-time TGV to Paris.

So yeah, also going to two football matches, but they don't really count.

Still a few tickets, some tickets available for London on Monday.

Go to theguardian.com slash fwtour23.

Like, not many left in Manchester.

So,

hurry if you want to go to Manchester on Wednesday the 15th.

And the live stream, of course,

which Nikki is a part of from Brighton on the 22nd at theguardian.com slash fwtour23.

So, in group G, Man City Leipzig are through.

That group is basically done.

Does anybody have anything new to say about Erling Haaland?

He scored from outside the box, Max.

He scored from outside the box.

He did score from outside the box.

That was a new thing.

What a goal.

What a goal.

That's such a good goal.

Yeah, fantastic goal.

I mean, it's, yeah, it's not particularly new.

I think that that was sort of a surprising statistic for some people, and he has third goal from outside the box, but he's an extraordinary footballer.

I mean, it kind of accelerated.

I thought it must have taken a deflection.

You You watch it again.

It's just

hit with such power.

And Foden's was a wonderful feat as well.

But I don't really know what to say, Barry, about Manchester City comfortably winning a Champions League football match that can add any insight.

Yeah, they comfortably won a Champions League football match against a team no one expected to put up much of a fight.

Young boys understandably aren't, you know, they're in the same group, but they're not in the same league as Manchester City in terms of class.

One of the interesting, well, vaguely interesting talking points from this game was that the young boy's captain asked Erling Harland for his shirt as they went off at half-time, and Harland gave it to him, but sort of

was a bit, you know, you can't be doing that.

And I would be inclined to agree with him.

It is a bit fanboyish when you're actually playing the game.

But we've seen players swapping at halftime before.

I mean,

it's one of those things that I feel like we were all rolling our eyes at a decade ago, and now suddenly it's being treated like it's brand new.

I suppose the point is: if you're the Young Boys player, you want to be the first to get it, right?

Because other Young Voice players will want Harlan's shirt as well.

And so it's like a race, you know, it's Steve Hodge getting Maradona's shirt, isn't it?

I mean, obviously, Peter Shilton wasn't rushing to get that one, but you know, I suppose that's the point.

You think, when can I first legitimately ask?

I sort of don't mind.

It's not a big deal in the cosmic scheme of things, but I think it smacks of a lack of focus on the game if you're sort of more interested in getting a rival shirt than actually

scoring goals but no i it isn't a big deal it's

you you asked for us to come up with something to say that's the best i could do i think the thing i that

uh sort of amuses me when i watch city these days is that i keep forgetting that Kevin De Bruyne is still a city player and he's they're just not missing him at all and he's arguably the best player they have he's he's been out for some time and will be out for some time and it's just business as usual that

and i you know i occasionally i'm reminded oh yeah he he's still that city but i haven't seen him for a while and they don't seem doesn't seem to matter that he's he's injured and it shows the strength and depth they have i suppose

um Leipzig also threw, Xavi Simmons scored another brilliant goal

after he's got that great one a couple of weeks ago.

They won 2-1 at Red Star Belgrade and so currently second in the group and that group is done.

Group E, Athleti 6 Celtic Nil David says, is it time for the two Glasgow sides to join together to compete in Europe?

Donkey dare you to ask that.

I don't remember Donkey Dare.

That's not from my childhood.

I don't know if anyone else heard it.

Kapanosti, why is Brennan Rogers so bad at European football?

He makes Antonio Conte look like Carlo Ancelotti.

Hey, look, they had a red card after 23 minutes, Baz, for one of those.

He probably didn't mean it.

It probably was a red card.

That's Maeda, and then that game was done.

Yeah, they were spanked.

And

I heard, I think it was Jamie O'Hara, and apologies, Jamie, if it wasn't, on talk sport last night, wondering, you know,

do Celtic even deserve to be in the Champions League?

And of course, they do because they're champions of Scotland and they qualified for the competition by on merit, but

it's kind of a never-ending circle.

They're so dominant in Scotland that they don't get tested very often.

And then they go into the Champions League and they make loads of money, which makes them even more dominant in Scotland

and reduces the competition,

any small bit of competition they have.

And then they go into the Champions League where the...

the gulf between the two competitions is simply too high.

Atletico Madrid have much better players than they do.

Maedis red card, yeah,

you could argue he was a little unlucky, but I think with the foul and Hermosa, there was, you know, it wasn't a violent challenge, and there wasn't much force in it, but he did catch him on the shin with his studs up, so fair enough.

Atletico scored some lovely goals.

Antoine Grease gotta second two.

Murata got two, and they both, each of them got a beauty.

And

can Celticime qualify for the Europa League at this stage?

It seems unlikely.

I think they're five points adrift to Feynard who are in third.

So, yeah,

I don't know.

What do you do with Celtic?

They're just not good enough.

Can I just, I mean, I suppose I sort of feel like I want to push back on that a little bit because Celtic were very unlucky to lose Lazio at home.

I mean, Lazio were not good in that game and just had the wherewithal to find the goal at the end.

And they did draw with Athletico at home.

I don't think Celtic have stunk this this group up they just stunk up the game last night but i don't think they've really been sort of that bad have they they they they were competitive in the first game against final to work as well until they went down to nine men so i i think it's

this was a funny game it's always sort of interesting when you see a big blur like this in the group stage because actually it doesn't matter that they scored six athletica they didn't have to keep the accelerator down because goal difference doesn't come into it unless it's head-to-head and they're not going to finish level on points with um with Celtic.

But I don't think Celtic have been, I don't think they've disgraced themselves in this group stage.

They certainly, I would agree, are the weakest team in the group, but there are maybe more egregious examples of that for me in the tournament.

I'm going to sort of come halfway between you, which is I think you're right.

And I remember last year correctly, they did push around Madrid at times.

You know, they pushed teams, but at the end of the day, they didn't win a game.

And I don't think they've won in the Champions League since 2017.

So it's a sort of recurring thing that sometimes they can compete or for for moments in matches they can compete but ultimately they just don't have what it takes to to get over the line and that you know that that first victory back well it was a calamitous inability to score that did for them last season so they were good in games but they just could not score for love or money and they were missing chance so many good chances so it you know might come good at some point Latio beat final one nil um it's a great finish from Immobile isn't it like he's got a lot of work to do And even once he's rounded the keeper, Nick, he's still got absolutely power at home.

Yeah, and it's a significant moment for him to some extent, because actually,

for the first time in, as long as I can remember, frankly,

his position as the starting centre for Lazio is under threat.

They signed Teti Castellanos in there

the summer.

I think we've talked about him on the show.

I remember asking Sid about him on the show.

Claudio Letito, the club's president, sort of was putting a lot of pressure on Sally to start Castellanos, to give him some games, having having spent the money on him.

And Immobile didn't have a great start of the season.

Castellanos comes in, scores a goal.

You get a lot of sort of enthusiasm around him.

So for Immobile to score and score well in a really crucial game for them, actually, because of course they did lose the away game to Finaud.

Definitely a big moment for him in the way this season's gone so far.

Just on Immobile, I don't know if you've any of us seen this clip of him being on Italian drag race.

It's a really brilliant clip.

And it was interesting, I was looking at a lot of the tweets about it, Nikki, and sort of saying it's, you know, Lazio are not necessarily seen as like the most

sort of open-minded football club, you can't generalise, I guess.

And so for him to go on that show is like, you know, and someone tweeting like he's done more for LGBTQ plus rights in 60 seconds than Jordan Henderson's done.

You know, we perhaps don't need to bring it back to Jordan Henderson, but it's a great clip and it's great.

It's great allyship, isn't it?

Yeah, no, exactly that.

It was great allyship from

Immobil and at a time when we have a government in Italy who seem fairly intent on rolling back rights for LGBT people, it was really a nice thing to see, actually, frankly, someone who, as you say, whose fan base have not always been associated with open-mindedness.

For him to sort of stand up and do that is a positive thing.

Yeah, athletic top of the group, eight points, Lazio on seven, fire, and odd on six, Celtic down on fourth.

On one point, that'll do for part two.

In part three, we will discuss Tottenham 1, Chelsea 4.

Welcome to part 3 of the Guardian Football Weekly.

T says, finally a pod where we won't be talking about refs VAR and managers' responses to both.

Refreshing.

Lashé says, Does anyone realize that Spurs actually lost last night when he tweeted?

From the way it's been reported, do you think they managed to bravely snatch a win?

An extraordinary game.

Spurs were cruising, almost went two up, then imploded.

Lots of VAR.

Five goals, five disallowed goals, two red cards.

Spurs' wild high line with nine men, two worrying injuries for them, Vicario's heroics, Nicholas Jackson's underwhelming hat trick, Spurs somehow getting more credit than Chelsea, Ange's very Ange views on VAR afterwards.

Jonathan, I don't know where to start on this game, but it was wildly entertaining.

I think we have to start with the football because otherwise it's just, I don't want to give too much attention to VAR, but I feel like starting with Ange's post-match interview, to be honest, I thought it was fantastic and a breath of fresh air.

But I will start with the football yeah it was a it was a crazy game and um

just summed up by that mad cap high line um

when spurs went down to nine men it was

there was like a sort of moment wasn't there where you're like wait a minute is he is he really gonna put all every single player basically on the halfway line and you're like yeah he is that is his tactic like it was suddenly realized this is a tactic and not kind of just a random happening um which i found fantastic to be honest and um a lot of people are sort of angry saying why didn't he sit back and try and defend it but if you've got eight outfield players it's going to be tough and to be fair spurs did really well with with the with the eight men they they nearly um nicked a goal with sign at the end so it wasn't even it was kind of like a die on your feet or die on your knees situation um

also made more hilarious by chelsea's just inability to break down kind of eight eight players eight outfield players um eventually they did it but

somehow they managed to do it but it was just it was just brilliant to watch Um, but yeah, for me, the highlight of the mat, the sort of evening, anyway, was Andy Possicolio's post-match interview in the sense of just his comments on referees and VAR and just kind of

bringing things back.

But I suppose we'll talk about that in a minute because the football was we've got to talk about the football, right?

As she says, I'd like everyone's thoughts on the high line.

Is Spurs dug in with men behind the ball?

I find it hard to believe Chelsea scored three.

Danny says, question for the bot.

How much do you think Ange despises the fact you can only catch an opponent offside in your own half?

How high would the Spurs line have been offside?

Counted all over the pitch, the edge of the Chelsea box.

You just imagine.

I mean, obviously, I'm watching this from a Spurs perspective, Barry, but you just had Son put that away, like it would have just been utterly like it would have been absolutely extraordinary.

Yeah, I can't really understand the criticism he's getting for playing that high line because Tottenham, if you include injury time, were down to nine men for more or less 45 minutes and they were still in the game until the 94th minute and if son has put that away it's two all

and they they could have snatched an amazing result under the circumstances so to the listener who who suggested spurs are getting more credit than chelsea for for this game despite chelsea winning i think they deserve more credit than chelsea because chelsea made incredibly hard work of

putting away a team they should have been able to to swat aside

with ease given the high line they were playing but Chelsea really struggled to break them down and to get past them.

Obviously they got there in the end but Spurs were still in the game in the fourth minute of added time and they deserve enormous credit for that.

And I don't think Chelsea deserve a huge amount of credit at all for despite the fact that they won.

And

I would also add Romero and Udagi don't deserve any credit because both those red cards were really stupid.

Yeah, I was about to say that.

Like,

they deserve credit with nine men, Nikki, but they were battering Chelsea.

And then Romero and Odogi, who both could have got sent off before they got sent off.

Yeah, so I had a really weird experience with this game, so I don't need to get to see all of it.

Because I was, as you guys know, I've been in New York on a trip and I was actually just about to fly home that day.

And I caught the beginning of this game, game and the first half of it in

amazingly Pele's soccer which is a shop in

Times Square which advertises itself as the greatest the greatest soccer store in the world and of course I've got to go stick my head in because it's in Times Square and it's calling itself the greatest soccer store in the world and I went in and actually it is a pretty great soccer store because it's got usual football shop stuff but then it's got like a gigantic screen with bleachers and they were just a bunch of teenagers not buying things just sat watching the game and I thought that was actually like really neat.

You don't have to go to a bar.

You can just go and watch the game in Pele Soccer.

So a hidden gem for anyone who needs to see a game in Times Square.

Yeah, so I, because of flight times, I got to watch most of the first half and then had to head off.

And I'm sort of seeing these extraordinary images.

that everyone's sharing on social media of the entire Tottenham team on the halfway line with nine players.

And I think I sort of have to moderate my comments because I didn't see see this part of the game but I think philosophically you can say

it makes sense and most teams would take the view that if you just want to protect the draw you camp out you bring everyone back into your half and I've seen teams do it before and nine men sometimes you can make yourself incredibly hard to break down just by putting nine men between the opposition and the goal and and given that it was taking Nico Jackson despite scoring a hat trick several chances to put the ball away maybe that would have worked.

But I suppose you can also make the case that what's more important, this one point, or if you're Angel Poster Coglu, sticking to your guns and getting your team to prove to itself that they can be competitive even when short manned, playing the kind of football that he wants them to play, that they've been training together to play, that they will set up their whole identity around.

I think you can certainly make a cogent argument that it's more valuable to say, okay, we might lose this one, but we will be who we're trying to become.

um and we forget that eric dyer volley which would have been something wouldn't it a guy's not played any football yes jonathan a lot of the criticism that

spurs got was kind of people saying well if you did that against a top tier if you did that against arsenal if you did that against man city you'd get destroyed sort of 10-0 or something like but the point was you weren't playing arsenal or man city like if If he played in the, if it was a different match, you would have maybe done a different, thought of a different tactic, if you know what I mean.

Like you adapt to the team you're playing.

And I felt like it was almost taking into account Chelsea and how Chelsea kind of struggled for goals

in recent times.

And that was almost part of the fun of it.

It was like, it was like daring Chelsea to sort of like, come on, then let's see what you've got.

And that was what I thought made it so, so interesting, the fact that he was almost calling them out and saying, well, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, sort of thing, which I thought was really, you know, just responding to the people who are criticising Spurs that you can't, you can't do that in any other game, but well, yeah, obviously you can't, but it wasn't any other game.

I mean, did Nicholas Jackson, he did the sort of shushing the crowd, and did he do like a sue when he scored his hat tricks?

I think, I'm not sure, mate.

But look, there was so much VAR in this game, Barry, and it is, it is quite entertaining on TV, but in the stadium, it's bad.

And

Graham Dunbar from AP, I saw Adam Hurry quote tweeted this.

That's where I saw it.

He said, look, reminder that in 2016, the VAR trial phase, FIFA anticipated checks taking six seconds and would be needed once every four or or five games.

The road to Premier League Hell paved with good intentions.

I know Var gets lots of decisions right, and actually, I don't think he got any decisions wrong in this game.

I think Destiny Doggy should probably have been sent off for his challenge on Raheem Sterling, but that's maybe the only one.

And Romero, his little kick out at whoever it was.

Yeah, apparently that was, it was petulant, not aggressive, and that's why he didn't get a straight red, which seems a bit odd.

Which is fine with me.

But I just wonder, like, obviously VAR isn't going away, but I just, it is rubbish, right?

It's like so many breaks in this game.

Yeah.

But the reason it's taking so long is because

the officials are terrified of making a mistake.

And the reason they're terrified of making a mistake is because of the constant forensic analysis to which Ange Postakoglu referred to in his post-match interview.

I treated something along the lines of, you know, when Postacoglu made those comments, oh, nice to hear from an adult.

And

loads of Arsenal fans got on my back over that because

what Posta Coglu said was the polar opposite of that tantrum Maritetta threw over the weekend, which he has since doubled down on.

You know, you'd forgive him for going off and won in

the immediate aftermath of a game in which he felt there was a grave injustice visited upon his team.

But for him to double down on it two days later, I was a bit disappointed with that.

Now,

a lot of Arsenal fans argued that Postakodglu could have no complaints because all of our decisions that went against his team were correct and they have a point.

But he was asked several very leading questions by the interviewer, who was more or less inviting him to criticise the referee, and he chose not to.

And

what was his quote?

This constant erosion of referees' authority, this is what they're going to get.

They will not have any authority.

It is going to be diminished and we are going to be in the control of someone a few miles away watching a TV screen.

And he's bang on with that comment, but

it is going to be the fault of,

you know, Richard Keyes wrote a furious blog in which he described...

what happened to Arsenal on Saturday as one of the most outrageous injustices I've seen on a football pitch this season.

Was it an injustice?

Maybe.

Opinion remains split.

Was it an outrageous injustice?

Certainly not.

So that's that's not helpful.

Us constantly picking over these things is not helpful, although I think we're fairer than a lot of people.

The sky section every Monday that's devoted to the forensic analysis of refereeing decisions and VAR decisions, it's not helpful, but it makes for good telly.

It gets eyeballs.

We have made this rod for our own back and people will complain about it, but this is this is what everyone wanted.

You've got it, and look, look, it's a mess.

And a lot of us said it would be a mess, and we were shouted down.

But

here we are.

Anne said, Premier League managers should just manage their football clubs.

I've never, and I never will, talk to a referee about the rules of the game.

I was taught that you grow up and you respect the officials.

You know what managers do.

I tell you what managers do.

We, me included, trying to find ways to bend the rules and get around them.

We're not the right people.

Sorry, one other thing.

It was also pointed out to me by a lot of Arsenal fans that St.

Ange actually got booked during this game.

But I believe he was booked for wandering out of his technical area, not for dissent.

Managers are entitled to complain against really egregious decisions.

That's fine.

I have no problem with that.

But the type of childish tantrum Arteta threw, that is beyond the pale.

Clubs issuing statements, that is beyond the pale.

You know, by all means, if you get a really bad decision that goes against you and it's wrong, it's definitely wrong, and it was a grave error.

Yeah, have a moan.

But that decision that went against our or those decisions that went against ours weren't particularly egregious.

There were 50-50 calls.

Was it a push in the back?

Maybe.

Nikki?

I mean, I disagree with Baz only about one thing, which is I think it was clear as day it was a push in the back.

I think that one is to me not a 50-50, but I agree with Baz's sentiment that

broadly,

I think there's nothing wrong in my mind

obviously in an ideal world we would not make life harder for referees because referees jobs are incredibly hard but i think there's nothing wrong in the sense that i think it's perfectly human to come out of a game incredibly wound up and sort of express that frustration in the heat of the moment and i also agree completely that the stuff that's come since then with the statements and doubling down is is is where it goes sort of into a different place and it's it's it's it's going too far.

Yes, in an ideal world, no one ever loses their temper, but people will lose their temper at football.

They've always lost their temper at football.

And I think that's sort of taking that out of the game completely, actually.

There's a line in there somewhere where it would be a completely different experience to how we all experience football, which is a game with emotions in it.

Presumably at some point in the future, Spurs will be a victim of grave injustice and may well have a moan about it.

And then obviously you'll have thousands and thousands of Arsenal fans going, ha ha, look, see?

there's a couple of interesting points, I think.

One is

somebody asked the question about saying, why haven't journalists smacked him down with his contradictory statements?

This is William about mistakes and fairness.

It's not edifying to see this guy swell up like this, just quote himself to himself.

The difficulty with that is that actually the journalists who are always at press conferences have a relationship with these managers.

And so do the post-game, you know, the post-game reporters.

They tread a really fine line and they know that if they are actually, if they piss a manager off, then the manager will say, I don't want them there.

And then that is professionally very difficult for them.

Arsenal aren't backing down.

The FA has written to Arsenal to request their observations.

The first step in bringing a disrepute charge.

Arsenal is set to present the Premier League with a list of refereeing decisions that have gone against them in the last 14 months.

Includes incidents in games against Man United in September 2022, Brentford in 2023, Man City in 2023, October, and the Newcastle game.

I'm really aware that I am a Tottenham fan, so that my opinion is sort of not valid.

Lots of people say it's just not valid, but I don't know what you think, Jonathan.

I sort of get the sense that Ange,

maybe he's just leading me a merry dance.

He does care about the game, I think.

I'm not saying Arteta doesn't, but like from what Ange said afterwards, I just think he's talking more holistically about football, whereas Arteta sort of says, I'm here to defend the club.

Actually, you're not necessarily, and English is not his first language, so that's a key point.

But a manager isn't necessarily there to defend a club at all times, regardless of what they do.

Well, on the language point, I mean, he did directly say he's been in this country 20 years so i don't think it was a language issue for one um two i think if arsenal wanted to write a list of refereeing decisions that have gone against them in in the last two years join the queue i think the biggest uh i think i think every team could write a list of decisions that have gone against them number one is culturally in england

refereeing decisions are always going to be the number one talking point tactics aren't really like the number one talking point in kind of how we consume football, I don't think.

You know, whereas maybe, I don't know, for example, Italian football, Nikki may have an observation in that it seems to me like in other countries, maybe that there's more analysis of other issues of the game.

I know refereeing does get talked about everywhere.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but my point is, and I remember saying this when VAL was introduced, if every single decision was correct,

there'd almost be nothing to talk about in England, if you get what I mean.

You wouldn't be like, okay, that was a great game, let's talk about tactics.

Controversy is part of what drives how we consume football.

So I don't really understand

that side of it.

And it's becoming almost performative in the sense people are, it's getting to a point now where, and I wonder if sort of this new era with Howard Webb is actually counterproductive because

he's sort of trying to engage with clubs and say, and you know, things like releasing the audio, I actually wonder, is that counterproductive to

the outcome?

Because now it's giving clubs the feeling that they can now challenge these things.

I want to hear the audio, I want to see this, I want to see that.

And I think that's leading it even further down the line.

Whereas the opposite approach is maybe, which has been the approach before, where it's like the decision's made, that's the end of it.

There's no discussion about it.

I do wonder if, like, this new era of trying to sort of engage with the clubs and be friendly and kind of explain yourself every week is actually counterproductive.

Because now you're seeing these statements coming out, you know, you're seeing the whole issue with Liverpool trying to maybe get the game replayed or whatever went on there.

Now with Arsenal, I don't really.

I do wonder where that's going.

Obviously, managers are always going to come out and try and deflect blame, aren't they?

I mean,

someone mentioned, I think, to Atetta, about trying to create a culture of like us against them and using referees as that.

And that's always been part of the game.

But I think they do need to sort of clamp down on

sort of statements and actively calling out refs.

Otherwise, we are going to end up in a situation, which is why I think Angel Postu's comments were really worthwhile and timely.

We are going to end up in a situation where games are just refereed by, you know, a TV screen or someone

in a room somewhere.

And games will take two hours to complete because

the natural outcome of this is going to be more and more decisions will be challenged if you get I mean the way it's going you you ask basically essentially Arteta is asking for more

decisions to be scrutinized which is going to take more time so

yeah I don't you're never going to have perfect refereeing that that's just part of football and I think that's part of we enjoy the talking points we enjoy the controversy and I think there is a danger that you're going to I mean even in the Celtic game just going back to that Brendan Rogers came out after the Athletica athletica madrid game and said he felt that um

he was watching it was it was part of taking part in a computer game that was i think his direct comment after the match because of how long really i took to make the decisions and you know he said he felt like he was being part of a computer game and just said the same thing and

i thought the spurs chelsea game was brilliant but we did have five disallowed goals and we had so many so much pausing of time to look at things

I totally agree with Pasakogli personally, and I think that a lot of people just need to get on with it and accept that refereeing decisions will sometimes go against your team.

It's as simple as that.

I just wanted to come back on Jonathan saying about Italian football.

I think Italian football actually was way ahead of English football in terms of making referees the story.

I mean, the Moviola, the replay sort of columns and whole TV shows dedicated to it were

part of Italian football scene long before VAR ever came into it, but also in terms of reacting to bad refereeing, there's a story that's ongoing in Italy right now.

A team Pomigliano in the

Seria Feminine, the women's top division, have

currently, and this is an unfolding situation, have currently said they're withdrawing from the league.

It was after a defeat to Samdoria.

They've cited in this press statement some sort of vague comments about poor organisation from the league and lack of clarity about how things are run but the substance of the statement was basically we're angry about a penalty that was given against us by against Samdoria and we feel like so we've got a team, a professional, you know, so women's football in Italy went professional a year ago.

And we've already got a team now that's threatening to withdraw from the league altogether because they're unhappy about refereeing decisions.

So unfortunately, I can't say things are better in Italy at all.

It's a universal then.

Yeah.

So, but just, I mean, just

my bad on that in that case.

But just one final thing I wanted to say.

Funnily enough, UEFA's having a campaign this week, aren't they?

Be a referee, the whole hashtag of like becoming a referee because there's a massive shortage of referees in the moment.

And, you know, ultimately, we can't, there's no problem without referees.

So, I feel like this pressure kind of does need to, there does need to be a line drawn somewhere.

And I think, I think authorities do need to start saying, you know, whether you're right or wrong on this, like, you just have to kind of accept it.

Otherwise, we are going to end up in a situation where it is literally the game is refereed by a computer somewhere, and

we have no referees, essentially.

That's that's kind of where it's going.

I wonder sometimes if it's a shortcoming on my part, or that I honestly don't get upset about refereeing decisions that go against my team.

Whatever the sport, you know, the Thierry Henry handball famously, I did, you know, it happened.

Grant, get over it.

But is that a shortcoming on my part?

Do I not care enough?

Or does everyone else does everyone else care too much?

What is going on in these people's lives that

a goal that they feel should have been disallowed being allowed causes them that much anguish?

I mean, that is football.

but I mean, that is, I mean, I agree with you.

I mean, a lot of people could accuse you of perhaps not caring enough about the whole

sport in general.

I don't, but I don't disagree with you.

Like, you win and you lose sometimes.

I suppose the difficult question is what, social media has a huge role in all of this, right?

You know, and not only that, you know, VAR exists, it isn't going away.

So I don't know how you fix it, Nikki.

I don't know how you change.

the way that this is managed so that we're not all yelling at referees and going to because we do i mean mean this pod does it like we can't say we go yeah if there's one part of this week's stories that's made me roll a little bit is I do feel like some people have sort of been talking about Michael Arteta like he's the first manager to do it when I sort of grew up watching Sir Alex Ferguson Sir Alex Ferguson who you know famously never complained about a referee until I did he and and managed to do pretty well at Manchester United so I think this sort of idea that it's new is is a bit sort of silly but I also think that Jonathan's kind of highlighted it well which is the problem is now you know in the past it rumbles on Ferguson's a good example because what would happen was each of them wouldn't talk to the press for a while and and and that would be the sandoff but what happens now is the complaint happens and clubs double down and make these statements and then the authorities felt they have to react and and you end up with the response very often being well let's let's improve VAR and I'm still not in the camp that thinks that all VAR in everywhere is terrible which I know some people are but I think that the sort of capacity to always think, well, we'll just add another layer to it or make it more complicated, we'll make it more involved, is a dangerous one because you are definitely never going to get perfect decisions.

And it's really the fans who go to the game, it's not just they don't know what's happening, but also, you know, we've grown up with knowing that a game that starts at three finishes at quarter to five.

You get this train, you do this, you go home.

An evening kickoff that starts at eight, okay, it's going to finish about quarter to ten, ten to ten.

These things are going, you know, I mean, perhaps it's not the biggest part of this, but people will miss their trains home.

You know, like it changes when a game lasts an extra half an hour, right?

What was the total game?

It was 11 minutes or something in the first half and another nine.

I don't want games to be any longer.

I don't care the ball hasn't been in play.

This is how long I want a game to be.

That's enough.

I mean, I don't maybe I don't care enough either, but I don't want any more of this.

This is enough, you know?

90 plus four.

I take it.

Yes, Jonathan.

The thing is, I mean, going back to Barry's point about Tyrion Reed, that's what VAR is supposed to be for, like the obvious, glaring, like, you know, really, really bad decisions that influence a really big moment, I think, for me anyway, personally.

And what I agree with Angie is on the fact that if you're going to constantly challenge referees' authority, you're going to get to a point where they have no authority and

they either don't feel confident to make decisions because they are going to make wrong decisions.

So either they're not going to feel the confidence and they're going to need to rely on VAR more.

or they're just not going to referee.

So, yeah, I think that is the real danger there.

And actually, I think, sorry, sorry, jordan i actually think that the referee doesn't penalize joel linton on gabriel because he's not totally sure so it'll go to var and then it's not clear and obvious so actually probably if the ar doesn't exist he probably does give a foul right benefit of the doubt you think okay it does look a bit like a push but sorry but just back back to football talk spurs are in a bit of a pickle now because yeah they've lost mickey van de vene to what looks like quite a bad hamstring injury we don't know i'm not sure is there any news about how long madison will be out Romero and Doggy are both missing the game at the weekend against Wolves as well through suspension.

So, yeah,

their squad's a bit thin.

So, we'll see what Angel's made of now, won't we?

Absolutely.

I love Eric Dyer, but the high line with Eric Dyer is a more terrifying prospect than Van der Went.

It's about half his speed.

But yeah, we shall see.

Turnbug 1 says, I just listened to the Guardian Football Weekly from the 6th of November.

Are you aware that Zlatan is in the new live-action Asterix and Obelix?

I presume this is related to

the Dutchman who chose to be a detective in a TV series rather than be Ajax assistant manager.

Zlatan plays some sort of Roman hitman that goes in and beats everyone up.

Leonoron gets injured and is subbed off.

Totally bizarre, he says.

And finally, we've had a message from Rob, Gary Bertel's window cleaner.

Just an update to, he says, Rob says, I can confirm that the guy who lives in Long Eaton is correct.

Gary Bertles strolls around Long Eaton very often in his multi-patterned shirts.

Last week, he had to walk into town to buy fireworks.

What a legend.

So there we are.

Perhaps that's closed the chapter on where Gary Bertles lives.

But look, if you have any more intel, do let us know.

Football Weekly at theguardian.com.

But that'll do for today.

Thank you, Barry.

Thanks, Max.

Thanks, Nikki.

Thanks, Max.

Thank you, Jonathan.

Thank you, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.

Our executive producer is Christian Bennett.

This is The Guardian.