Manchester United and Arsenal crash out of Carabao Cup – Football Weekly Extra

This is the Guardian.

Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

And Manchester United can't even find a reprieve from inside the Carabao Cup box.

Newcastle hammer them 3-0, and it's no surprise.

A lot of changes for both sides, but one had a plan, and the other just turned up.

And hoped Arsenal are dumped out by West Ham.

More kudos to Kudos and his first touch while Jared Bowen keeps on performing.

Two wins in a row for Everton.

Top trolling from Sean Dice to win the Sean Dice Derby almost exclusively with former Burnley players.

And then there's Peak Darwin Nunes as Liverpool win in the sea on the sea in Bournemouth.

Well done to Port Vale for getting to the quarterfinals for the first time.

We'll look ahead to the Premier League weekend, Newcastle Arsenal and Spurs Chelsea, the pick of the games.

Then there's Jani giving Saudi Arabia the 2034 World Cup on Instagram.

Another ref without a whistle, the shameful Dutch-Swedish detective mix-up.

Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, hello.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Johnny Lou.

Hi.

And hello, John Bruin.

Hello.

So the quarterfinal draw for the League Cup was made hours, it seemed, after Man United got hammered by Newcastle.

Everton, Fulham, Chelsea, Newcastle, Port Vale, Middlesbrough, and Liverpool, West Ham.

Let's start then at Old Trafford, Man United 0, Newcastle 3.

Jim says, for all the Man United woes, is it just taking the piss for Newcastle to beat them with seven different fullbacks on the pitch at various times?

Richard Jolly tweeting that so far tonight, Manchester United have had more captains than shots on target.

Eight defeats in 15, worst run since I think 1972.

Nick says, which inquiry into a major disaster do we expect to feature more swear words?

Dominic Cummings on Boris Johnson or John Bruin on Manchester United?

Off you go, John.

They're a bunch of absolute useless fuck pigs, aren't they?

That's Manchester United.

Well,

you can't say it wasn't coming.

And I suppose it's a symbolic defeat in that,

actually, as Barney related to us, those within Manchester United placed such emphasis on winning the Carabao Cup last season.

This was regarded as a measure of the success and how far Manchester United had travelled and how they were on their way back.

Well, they surrendered it so meekly, didn't they?

And

as regards the performance, well, it's difficult to start with who was bad, and it's unfortunate, but Hannibal, young Hannibal, came into the team, seemed determined to get himself sent off from very early on.

And then for the first Newcastle goal, because he can't make a tackle,

they break away and score.

But I say that he couldn't make a tackle, but there were two other Manchester United players that could have made a tackle during that goal, and neither of them bothered either.

And away they went and scored.

And then if you think of the Lewis Hall goal, lovely goal if you're Lewis Hall, Newcastle fan, first goal in senior football, but rather too easy for him.

And the Newcastle fans had so much fun singing along about how Ten Hag is going to get sacked in the morning.

This morning, I watched Ten Hag's press conference, the full three and a half minutes of it, in which he just kept saying, I'm a fighter, I'm a fighter, I'm a fighter.

Now, the thing about fighters is they're often the last to think that they can still win, aren't they?

Yeah, it's going really very badly for Manchester United.

Yeah, Ten Hag did say we weren't at our usual standard.

And I was like, well, actually.

Andrew says, Does the fact that Newcastle made eight changes but still had a clear style of play highlight Manchester United's total lack of identity?

I thought it was an interesting question, Johnny, because they did make lots of changes.

So you could put it down to a kind of, well, it doesn't really matter.

But both teams did that and one knew what they were doing.

yeah i mean if you if you line up those those two sets of players next to each other i mean i had i had no idea paul dummett was was still knocking around the place um you know matt ritchie who you know

he's probably in his late 40s by now uh i i

you know any anybody that says that football is won by players you know by the quality of players alone that that matches kind of the perfect response to that because

You know, you could have put any, you could put any 11 players out there in a Manchester United shirt and you feel like they still would have played in roughly the same way with the same vibes, with the same energy.

You know, it's

it is it is cultural.

I don't know how long we spent, how many hours of our lives, you know, certainly you and Barry, right?

How many hours of your lives have you spent dissecting Manchester United being shit, finding all these different metaphors and similes?

And well, it's the culture, it's, you know, it's, it's the, oh, they just seem, you know, the recruitment's been terrible.

The roof at Old Trafford is leaking.

And it's been, it's been like this for 10 years, a kind of

an ever-repeating groundhog day.

That's a tautology.

And not only that, it's saying the same thing twice.

So I don't know what there is new to say about Manchester United, other than the fact that they just, you know, they just need to go away for a couple of years and be shit.

out of the limelight you know and we should probably have a moratorium on talking about math you know almost like arsenal were trying to do and almost like chelsea are trying to do now just go away for a couple of years be shit get some therapy uh you know you're still, you know, Ferguson leaving was obviously a massive trauma.

It was a massive, massive trauma for them.

And they

never managed to get away, never managed to get over that trauma.

And so ended up in a cycle of

doing self-destructive things because...

the business of Manchester United PLC would not allow them to spend a little bit of time and think about what they were doing because

they are being kept in this,

they're trapped in this cycle of tension and trauma

and trying to, you know, lash out and

almost, you know,

look for miracle cures and saviors that will that will kind of snap them out of it.

But that's not how it happens.

You know, anyone who's kind of been through a trauma knows that that's not how you get over it.

You do it with time and a process and

almost a little bit of peace and quiet.

And United will never have that.

And that's why they're still trapped in this nightmare.

and so many players baz not at it sunny says could barry have more impact up front for man United than Martial who's on 250 grand a week Ian is Anthony the Brazilian cousin of George Weyer David Wheeter did make me laugh when he went I'm not shitting you I reckon I could do what Anthony does for United he's on about 150 grand a week Mason Mount's on 250 Sancho's on £373,000 a week Varan on 340

it's just it's just amazing that you can earn so much money and not well at least Mason Mount was on the pitch, you know.

I mean,

I lost faith in Anthony Marshall a long, long time ago, as I'm sure many Manchester United fans

did as well.

He's capable of excellence, but it's so sporadic.

He seems to be stealing a living there.

Anthony's signing has been a disaster.

Varan wasn't on the field last night, as far as I know.

Even though it was their second or third string, you kind of wonder what's going on there.

He didn't play in the Manchester Derby either.

Who else?

Well, Jaden Sancho seems to be, you know, out in the cold.

I'd say he's probably just going to wait it out and hope that Eric Tenhag gets sacked.

And the writing very much does seem to be on the wall at this stage.

We know how this cycle goes.

You know, manager comes under pressure.

People start saying, pointing out that he's under pressure.

He says he's a fighter,

but

it generally only ends one way.

He seems a very uninspirational character.

And while I don't think we're in you possibly being get out of bed to do a voice note, you know, in a couple of hours, we're not in that territory yet.

It does seem to be only a matter of time and possibly not a very long time.

The only thing I would say in their favour, Manchester United's favour, is on paper, they have quite a benign run of fixtures coming up: Fulham, Copenhagen, Luton, Everton, Galatasaray.

But

they could lose some of those games, and they could lose all of those games.

I mean,

they're in quite a benign run.

And actually, the three games they've won, Brentford, Copenhagen, Sheffield United, have all been like two of them incredibly lucky.

Yeah.

Like a last-minute penalty save and Scott McDominanese.

I mean, they could have lost all of these.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the point Barry makes about the ten hag departure which seems almost inevitable you'd have to say that that is probably going to be delayed till until big sir jim ratcliffe comes in that the the if the glazers have a modus operandi that we uh that we know of it is that is to leave stuff to the last minute and hope it goes away and leave it to somebody else and that was and so when ratcliffe comes in

even though it is said he has expressed faith in 10 hard any new owner comes into into a club, even if it's a 25% owner, and he's going to say, right, we'll get rid of him.

And then, of course, we have the Dave Brailsford's dream team.

And then perhaps

the traumatic recovery process of which Jonathan speaks can begin with Sir Dave Brailsford's

marginal gains.

That was it.

Marginal gains.

Marginal gains might.

Certainly, he'll whip the medical department into shape, that's for sure, whatever about the squad.

Could Man United fans look at Tottenham, right, and go, I'm sure, like this time last year, we were saying Tottenham are garbage and it's going to take, they are screwed forever because their players are rubbish, the managers rubbish, there's no structure, those players, no one's going to buy them.

And now suddenly, with quite a lot of changes and a new face, they have become, at the moment, incredibly good.

Yeah, I mean,

this is

something about the this is about the different profiles of those two clubs.

It's okay for, I mean, it's not okay, but it's acceptable.

It is not a disaster for Spurs to be eighth for a couple of seasons

and try and basically try and find a new team, try and try and bring some new players through and find a new way of playing.

I'm hugely encouraged by the start Posta Cognu has made, but it's still, it's been a third of a season.

And so 10 hogs started really well, you know, really good first six months at United.

And it's whether these it's whether these improvements can be sustained when, you know, through tough runs of fixtures, through injury crises, etc.

etc.

But I think there is something in that.

You know, it used to be, you know, 30, 40 years ago, a giant would, you know, they'd even get relegated, or, you know, they'd spend a few years in mid-table and they'd uncover a Shankley or a Ferguson.

And

then they could begin their cycle of dominance again.

And that simply isn't.

It's not allowed anymore.

Partly because of the, you know, the way the finances work in elite football, that you can't ever really be truly,

you can't be truly shit.

United are never going to get relegated.

And also, the pressure

from the media cycle, from fans,

from investors for constant reinvention, constant fixes, that's part of the problem, I think.

And I think for United fans, it's clearly...

Following United isn't making them happy anymore.

It's not satisfying them.

They might get occasional moments of joy.

They might get occasional last-minute winners, the same as they did under Sol Shar.

But I don't think that club is giving them the sort of the lasting satisfaction that you want from your relationship, one of the biggest relationships that you're going to have in your life.

So

that's the tragedy to me, that it's become an unhappiness machine, United.

And

as fun as it is to watch from the outside, I do feel slightly for United fans who are kind of trapped in it and probably don't have a lot of agency in terms of doing anything about it.

It sounded like you you were suggesting that if United turns an avuncular Australian, all could be cured.

And I'm thinking, who could that be?

I mean, you know, Carl Kennedy's obviously a friend of yours,

but

Eddie Jones has worked in this country before.

Maybe his visa.

So you look, I mean,

I just don't know.

Who are the Australians that could sort this thing out?

You know, what's Brad Willis up to these days?

Well, do you know what?

Billy Kennedy, I mean, if Carl, you know, doesn't want to travel, like, Billy Kennedy did really well because he went from Aaronsbridge to being a fireman in Chicago Hope, didn't he?

So, like, he's got some

real talent.

Via house, wasn't he?

Yes, via being a doctor as well.

So, like, he's a multi-talented guy.

So, he, I, I, I'd say Billy Kennedy.

Obviously, Alf Stewart could kick someone to shape.

He's more of a sort of Sean Deich, Sam Alado.

Disciplinarian.

Yeah, probably.

Um, Barry and Newcastle were excellent, and they had made lots of changes.

Back forward was different.

The West Hall was great.

Emma Kraft came back, mentioned Dummit.

Joe Willock had been out for a long time.

We should give them some credit.

Yeah, I was just thinking there, the handful of Newcastle fans we have left among our listenership will probably get angry that we're devoting all our time to United.

But United being crap is the story because

we know how good Newcastle can be.

They're all pulling together for Eddie Howe.

Fringe players come in and play well.

They don't appear to be sulking on the sidelines.

It was no surprise that they won.

It was probably a surprise they won as comfortably as they did.

But

to use the cliché, they obviously wanted it more.

They're a much more cohesive side.

They don't necessarily have better players, but they're a much better team at the moment.

Liveramento, I think, was given Man of the match.

And obviously, Louis Hall scored a goal.

Now,

I went to the Wolves Newcastle game last weekend in which Kieran Trippi had a bit of a nightmare.

And there was a discussion afterwards about when is Eddie going to release the £60 million worth of fullbacks that they've spent over the summer.

Liveramento, Lewis Hall both came in, did a good job.

Again, that looks like good, sensible recruitment, and Eddie playing them at the time that's right.

And so, if Trippier has a lapsing form, I think he's been a little bit dodgy last couple of games.

They've got a ready-made replacement.

Well, that's how you build a squad, isn't it?

West Ham 3, Arsenal 1.

A brilliant result this for West Ham, Johnny.

I totally deserve it.

Really, really impressed by West Ham.

I thought

Mohamed Kudas' goal was better than Bergkamp's against Argentina.

Wow.

I know, if you think about it, right?

If you think about it, it's a

very similar kind of setup, diagonal ball.

Bergkamp takes it down with two touches.

Kudas takes it down with one,

beats the defender with us with a single touch, and then has to thread his shot through Gabrielle's legs into the bottom corner.

Whereas, I think if you remember, Bergkamp had a pretty free run

at the corner of the goal there.

So I think that was

probably a superior goal to one of the most left.

I think that Bergkamp, because he finishes with the outside of his right foot, and actually because of the angle that you see it from, right?

And also because it's better, I think for those three reasons I would go.

Yeah, also

Argentina and Naka.

Yeah, you get plus points for the outside of the foot.

Kudis, by the way, has, you know, I thought he's fantastic.

I think we are finally, well, not finally, but we are beginning to see the best of him.

And there is so much talent in that West Ham squad.

You know,

they are so much fitter than they used to be.

There's a real kind of, you know, we talk about the togetherness and the spirit and, you know, moise ball and whatever.

But

there is real talent in that squad.

And it's really exciting to see.

And Arsenal weren't quite at it.

I think that's fair to say.

But yeah, a real, really Bowen, Jared Bowen.

He's so like, I remember when Bowen, Bowen joined West Ham from Hull, and he would basically get shoved off the ball by

defenders.

And now the guy's like a beast.

He's an absolute tank.

So

that's kind of the transformation that Moyes, I think, has brought.

Didn't Bowen spend a summer like running through plowed fields on his father's farm down in it's from Herefordshire.

David, was that him or is that yeah yeah hereford yeah

uh because he he realized that he wasn't quite strong enough so he he was just spent the summer on dad's farm you know lifting boulders and hammering in fence posts and dragging the plow around the field you know doing the work of an ox and and that's how he kind of bulked up a bit and got stronger and fitter.

What a montage that would be.

Yeah, yeah.

He basically spent a summer doing a rocky montage i'd like to see a david squires of that yeah

come on david uh do that for us yeah i mean it's probably not worth reminding anyone barry that both you and i suggested they would get relegated this season in our premier league previous i don't know what i was i don't know what part of me was thinking that you're so right about bowing johnny he's just a utterly brilliant i think he switched to the other side as well didn't he because kudos is sort of plays in similar play right winger playing on left-footed player right on the right wing So the fact that he could do that was brilliant.

Meanwhile, Arsenal, John, they weren't at it.

No.

A lot of the conversation comes to could Aaron Ramsdale have saved any of those shots?

Because,

you know, like that's a sort of Ramsdale Rayo watch that is just continual now.

And he was fouled for the first goal, and he probably can't do anything for the other two.

So gets a pass from me.

It was Rambo's big night out, wasn't it?

And, you know,

it's been made fairly clear that he's not happy with his situation.

and yet he concedes three.

I think there's one of them where I thought maybe he could have done a little bit better than that.

It was deflected, though.

Well,

he got a big hand to the deflected goal, but wasn't able to keep it out.

Trevor Brooking would have said, you know, if you get a hand to it, then

you've got to save it.

And

we can't dismiss Trev's logic there, can you?

But no, I mean, it...

Yeah,

I feel sorry for Ramsdale.

I think I'm still not convinced by David Ryer, but I can see the logic of it and the statisticians will sh tell you that he makes more saves

and obviously the distribution aspect of it, which I didn't think Ramsdale was particularly bad at.

But listen, if you're Aaron Ramsdale, wait your time up.

Someone will buy you up.

And as long as it's not Manchester United, things will probably be okay.

I enjoyed your tweet, John.

Has Ben White joined a Blink 182 tribute band?

Striking look, he's gone for.

Yeah, I mean,

has he had an accident there with the sun in, or

it was, you know, I mean, listen, I'm no sartorial expert, but is that what the kids are doing now?

Jonathan, you might know.

I'm 38 this month.

Okay, so well, so

that is a kid to us.

Well, that's it.

Yeah, you're a kid to me, Jonathan.

I thought it looked quite good.

So, was it fake tan?

Is it fake tan and peroxide head?

Yeah.

Maybe that looks big in Berlin, surely.

You know, there must be a bit of that going on.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, for the full effect, he probably wants a couple of piercings and a fringe and a sort of a black biker jacket.

Some sort of chain hanging down somewhere.

Yeah.

If he.

Do you reckon that's how he dresses?

You know, like on the Christmas do?

Like he turns up looking like he's in Blink 182.

Yeah, like Mark Hoppers.

Who knows?

Barry, the Declan Rice,

this was the Declan Rice Derby, and, you know, know, he was applauded while warming up, and then some people booed him, and then some ex-pro said, I can't believe he's been booed, as if football fans aren't in for a bit of panto.

I mean, that's what it was, right?

Don't forget, Max, it was also the Dinos Campramanus Derby.

Is that his name?

If I got his name completely wrong,

Mavropanos.

Mavropanos.

Sorry.

How quickly we forget.

Yes, I know.

Well, I had forgotten, if truth be told.

He had his seven appearances for Arsenal.

Ars, No one made a big deal out of that.

Yeah, I mean, Declan Rice, there were some booze.

Then the booze were drowned out by warm applause.

And, you know, I'm sure

it's all just pantomime.

I'm sure he doesn't care.

And West Ham fans are perfectly entitled to boom.

It's quite funny that they're booming him, but there's really no reason why they should boom.

I think icy indifference would almost be better, but, you know, whatever.

I guess in a way, the fact that when he wasn't on the pitch, Arsenal weren't as good is a sign that he is really quite important for Arsenal.

But I think we all knew that anyway, didn't we?

But well done, West Ham, and that'll do for part one.

Part two.

We'll go through the rest of the Carabao Cup games.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Alan says, Dear Max and co.

I was listening to Football Weekly a few weeks back after having a few drinks.

As an American listener, I was excited about the Football Weekly tour live stream in Brighton that I signed up on the spot.

I was surprised to see my info auto-filling on the website, but figured maybe I'd used it before for a previous tour.

Turns out I was drunk enough that I'd forgotten I'd already bought a ticket to this year's live stream.

I figure buying two tickets is the least I can do to thank you and the pod for hours' entertainment, hilarity and emotions.

As many listeners have said previously, you and the pod have gotten me through some very tough times in the past few years.

Hearing the usual voices multiple times a week never fails to brighten my day.

day if there's anyone who would like a ticket but can't afford it is there a way you or more likely producer joel could reassign the extra to them thanks again alan from new orleans um more pertinently could everyone please buy two tickets especially for troxy and then we'll fill the place uh david says uh hi all long time listener not missed an episode since 2007 i reckon blimey that's some commitment i'm heading to the manchester show i've treated a local legend to accompany me i live in buxton derbyshire and chris hill also a long time listener has been a stalwart of local football scene for years, coaching the town's kids at schools, football camps, most recently at Buxton FC.

He'll absolutely hate Brackett's love this recognition, so a shout-out would be amazing on the pod or the night.

Keep up the great work.

I don't know what I'd do without you all.

Thanks, Dave Bertles, Brackett's no relation to Gary.

Presume you don't need to use that for all your life situations, but here it is relevant, I suspect.

Yes, we are going on tour.

Yes, John?

I told you, didn't know that I met Gary Bertles recently and is into collecting records, and that he had paid an awful lot of money for a first edition of Guns N' Roses Appetite for Destruction.

Conversations you thought you'd never have, but yeah.

No.

Well, I also remember when I did the Hong Kong Soccer Sixes something or something, I hosted that, and John Moss was there, and I said, what have you been up to today?

Which in the bargain went, I've just been checking out the vintage record stores of Hong Kong.

I was like, okay, that was not where I thought this conversation would go.

Could I ask, sorry, John, what would the going rate for a first edition of Epetite for Destruction be?

Oh, well, someone interested for some reason?

I think he'd paid, I think it was about £200.

He'd also bought a record by

the deepest prog

band called Colosseum, which was sort of jazz, sort of jazz rock slash prog rock, which I had to look up and even I found that a bit impenetrable so yeah that is a he's a true head is Gary Bertley John Moss famously owns he owns a record store a vintage vinyl shop in in Headingley

in just outside Leeds called the vinyl whistle vinyl whistle the vinyl whistle yeah

I think John has to look up a record chances are it is not on my radar anyway look all of this chat means come to the live shows please Troxy in East Dunn it's just next to Limehouse very easy to get to on the DLR.

Absolute piece of cake.

You're basically there if you're in central London.

Me, Baz, Ellis James, Troy Townsend, and Philippe O'Claire.

A few tickets left in Manchester.

Me, Baz, John Brew and Nada Manuha.

And the live stream, of which Johnny will be a part of us alongside Nikki Bandini, 22nd.

And you can watch it a week on catch-up as well.

Go to theguardian.com slash fwtour23.

If you've already bought a ticket, get drunk and buy another one.

Everton 3, Burnley-nil.

Rich, a Burnley fan, says, is the correct reaction when one of your former players crosses for another one of your former players in a team managed by the most Burnley manager ever to score the most Burnley goal ever to just go, oh, for fuck's sake.

This is Sean Dice, Sean Dicing Burnley, Johnny.

Yeah, I mean, this is, I mean, if you've got, you know, a few years ago, if you said Everton, you know, would beat Burnley and Burnley would have 63%

possession.

You know,

it's a real weird role reversal.

I mean, I didn't see all of our,

I just saw the goals, but I mean, I think Everton are coming good, aren't they, a little bit?

They obviously had this nightmarish start to the season, but the underlying stats, as

the dudes, as the stats dudes like to say, were still quite good.

And I think, you know,

they are beginning to come good now.

They're actually putting away a few of the chances that they're creating.

And yeah,

nice reception for Calvin Lewin as well when he went off.

And then you have, yeah, Tarkovsky,

former Burnley player, scoring the opening goal, Inanna, and then Ashley Young sort of completing it at the end.

So yeah, I think it's

trouble for Burnley, I think.

I think I still have no idea watching them how they want to score goals.

I think they know how they want to want to score goals, but I don't see any evidence of how they're actually going to put it together.

Although it is customary to say, I think Burnley will come good.

They're terrible.

They're really terrible.

Yeah, yeah, awful.

I'm sorry, Bernie fans.

You're the worst team I've seen this season.

I saw them.

Brentford.

Oh, dear.

And and and and Jonathan's absolutely correct.

They there is no route to goal.

They know to shoot on goal and get headers on, but it's the sort of bit before that that they're not managing to do.

And Big Vin came in with this, you know, freestyle

passing football and it's not really transferred to a high division or facing a team of, I was going to say, of the quality of Everton, but I think actually

what we have seen is that Sean Dice has located the quality within Everton's squad, which is a thin squad, and it's doing a very Sean Dice job with them.

I suppose the question is...

Do they get an extra 12 points over those that they're going to get deducted?

But obviously the Carabelle Cup doesn't count towards that.

But, you know, and also I should say

a good send-off to Bill Kenright ahead of kickoff last night.

Much deserved for a great Everton man.

Bournemouth won Liverpool two bands.

I'm incredibly wet.

Storm Kieran is battering the south coast.

And

vintage Darwin Nunes is the only part of this game that we can need to cover.

Well, I mean, his goal was fantastic insofar as his first touch was diabolic.

It was a Mohammed Kudis.

It was not.

And he took the ball wide.

The crowd were all laughing at him.

And then he cut back inside, unleashed this screamer into the top.

Well, it's not really a screamer, I suppose, but what a strike.

Brilliant goal.

And yeah, a very soggy evening on the south coast.

I hope everyone is...

indoors and wrapped up safe in the UK and Ireland

because we're in for a a battering, I think.

And Bournemouth certainly got one last night

from the weather.

And,

well, as you know, 2-1 respectable scoreline, but Liverpool won pretty comfortably.

Chelsea beat Blackburn 2-0.

Nice finish from Raheem Sterling for one of them.

Fulham on 3-1 at Ipswich.

Middlesbrough beat Exeter 3-2.

And Port Vale won at Mansfield.

So the first time in the quarter-final of the Carabao Cup

for them.

And they will go to Middlesbrough.

They're at home.

Oh, damn it.

I was going to say I would love it.

I would love it if they got something from there, but it doesn't quite work if they're at home.

I would still love it if they managed to get through to the semi-final.

Let's look ahead to the Premier League games.

Newcastle Arsenal

seems the most interesting game

on paper, Johnny.

It's interesting because up until last night, Newcastle have been stretched.

They look tired.

They look leggy.

That game against Dortmund then Wolves.

And you think this is a really great chance for Arsenal to sort of put a marker down because it is not easy going to St.

James's Park.

Yeah, and also a kind of, it feels like a slightly emergent rivalry, certainly between the two sets of fans.

I think Arsenal fans have been, certainly online, have been more vocal than most about, you know, Newcastle and the ownership.

There was a really bad-tempered game at the Emirates last season, the 0-0,

where Arteta kind of

lost his rag a little bit on the touchline.

You have these kind of contrasting, almost contrasting styles of play

where

Arsenal are essentially trying to build something and Newcastle

are trying to stop them.

And I think that that makes it a really fascinating clash.

These are two of the teams who, if you pitch the Premier League forward three or four seasons, are probably going to be rivals for

Champions League football.

They're going to be coming up against each other quite a lot

in the coming years with very similar aims uh and i think it's all going to add up to you know again newcastle is definitely not not a is not an easy place to go and arsenal are really going to have to they're going to have to dig deep as we say because it's it's it's st james's park where they had their big collapse at the end of the

what was it the

the last season before before one two seasons ago basically they had they had their big collapse and missed out on the champions league so there's a there's a little bit of history there eddie howe is uh backing his owners to throw a wonderful world cup He said our trips out there to Riyadh and Jeddah were two different experiences, really.

Everywhere we went was well organised.

We were well looked after.

If that's a sign of what a World Cup might look like structurally, it will be really good.

More of that in part three.

Spurs Chelsea on Monday night, John, so we'll obviously do a pod in between these times.

But I don't know.

It feels like for Chelsea, this is not a good time to play Spurs, but I think every Spurs fan is sitting there thinking, oh, no,

this is where it falls apart.

Well, three points lane, as Chelsea fans call it, don't they?

And is that, there used to be that long-standing record.

Even watching the highlights of Chelsea last night,

I still have no idea what is going on with Chelsea.

And that's the one thing you could say is that Tottenham have developed very quickly

an obviously recognisable style of play, a sense of direction.

They should have too much for Chelsea.

These are the types of games where Angeball will be tested because it's

there'll be a sense of anxiety in the Tottenham Stadium, I would have thought, just because it is Chelsea.

And it's Pochettino.

And against Pochettino, but the thing about Pochettino, though, is

I, again, I don't recognise this guy.

When I see this bloke in the Chelsea

dugout and a guy after the game, he's got.

Are we sure this is the same bloke that was at Tottenham?

Because this guy, you know, the guy at Tottenham had charisma, he had, you know,

lots of quips, lots of,

you know,

it was like a winner.

He sort of gave off this aggressive.

He's become much more passive, much more.

He's almost as if he's arrived at Chelsea and thought, yeah, this is like the other clubs in which I've had problems.

And he hasn't committed himself in a full poch way.

We've had none of the mysticism, none of the...

It's just, I'm not sure this is the same guy.

Paris does that to you, I think.

psg does that does that to you i mean too cool also he came out of that whole circus uh a lot more pragmatic basically you know when your job has been reduced to win this thing

manage these manage these children and win this thing manage these idiots yeah it's you know it's it's management it's coaching pared down to its to its very basic most basic almost very most cynical level and i think that fundamentally changes your outlook if you take that job you are essentially saying you know i want to win something i i i don't care about anything else.

I don't care about, you know, building anything.

I just, I need to win this thing.

And I think that changes very significantly your outlook on coaching as a vocation.

That's my theory.

While we're on Tuchel

and vaguely linked to Spurs and Harry Kane, who left for Pastures New to win trophies, Archie writing, caps lock on big time.

Third division FC Sarbrook and two by Munich one.

It's done.

One of the biggest ever shocks in the DFB Pokar history.

He didn't come on, Baz,

but you know, that is one big shot.

Maybe he should have.

Oh, God, it'd be unbearable if he didn't win anything, wouldn't it?

It would also be funny.

It would be funny if he didn't win anything, and obviously, Spurs go on to win the league.

That would, oh, Crikey.

No, I bear Harry no ill will whatsoever, but yeah, it would be funny if he didn't win anything at Bayern either.

Harry Kay didn't join Bayern Munich to win the DFB Pakal.

It's obviously very funny that he wasn't playing last night, by the way.

And it kind of that performance showed exactly why they bought him because, you know, there's so many games last season.

They had Chupin Motting up front and they were creating lots of charts and they couldn't put them away.

And Zar Brucken finished them in the 96th minute.

That's exactly why Kane was signed.

He started the season brilliantly.

There's been almost no adaptation period at all.

They're still, I think, by a distance the best team in the Bundesliga.

So while it would be very funny if he didn't win anything at the end of the season, I think he is going to be a Bundesliga champion at the very least.

Fulham Man United is the early kickoff on Saturday.

I don't think we need to do much on Man United.

But Fulham, John, will fancy this.

Of course.

Answer this question without any reference to Manchester United if you can.

Oh,

I'm not sure I can.

No, it's not possible.

It's not possible.

No, no, can't do it.

No.

Fine.

Absolutely fine.

Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa.

John, you were on a Nottingham Forest podcast, the Garibaldi Red.

Yes.

And can you repeat all of the interesting things you said on there?

Well, I actually learned quite a lot about Nottingham Forest by not knowing that much about Nottingham Forest because I equated actually to, do you remember when Eddie Howe was at Bournemouth?

And everyone would say, what a job Eddie Howe's doing at Bournemouth.

And then you'd look and see that Bournemouth had lost about seven games in a row.

But you never notice because it was Bournemouth.

And that's sort of what's gone on with Nottingham Forest is the fans are starting to get a bit worried.

And the ownership being the ownership,

there is concern over Steve Cooper because

the fans are still behind Steve Cooper.

And I think all of us here will have been in that position of saying, what a job Steve Cooper's doing, by the way.

And then you look and it's not going so well.

Now, there's been a lot of injuries,

and it's he struggled to maybe replace Brennan Johnson, Morton Gibbs White, Barry's hero, has perhaps struggled struggled a little bit.

And what you've got is a club, this classic second season, ITIS.

I was asked, you know,

do you see them up with the Brantfords or the Fulhams?

And my feeling was they're below that, but

the problem they've got is at the bottom three, we all think that's copper bottoms.

But say Bournemouth, Iriola's wizardry, suddenly starts putting results together, a club like Forrest is one that's going to start worrying.

Vindication for Sid Lowe, it would be, wouldn't it?

On the subject of Villa, Grant says, can you please mention Charlie Aitken, who passed away yesterday at the age of 81?

All-time appearance record holder for Aston Villa with 660 games over a 17-year period.

So yeah, may Charlie rest in peace.

And we send our love to Villa fans, of course.

Everton, Brighton, Everton are good now.

We've established.

Sort of feel they could they could do something here, Baz, against Brighton.

I just got full recency bias?

I don't know.

Probably.

And I think I probably have a recency-ish bias in saying Brighton aren't as impressive at the moment as they they were last season.

Funnily enough actually, and I'm going to drag Manchester United in here, even though they've no place in it.

I was just thinking last night, if United did get rid of Ten Hag, would Roberto De Serby be

the obvious candidate to replace him, or would Manchester United perhaps think he's beneath them even after all the good work he's done but yeah at Goodison Brighton can be sketchy enough away from home and

with with Everton resurgent

and Dominic Calvert Luin in form more importantly and and fit

I wouldn't be surprised if Everton won this one bad news for Irayola's wizardry Bournemouth go to Man City at the weekend so that's the end of that one and well that's just gonna no that's just gonna be oh well guys Ireola Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I remember the guy.

Imagine the...

I have so much respect for him.

Yeah.

The way they play the game the right way and all that.

Oh, we've beaten a 6-0.

Well, that's what he used to do with Eddie Howe's Bournemouth.

So, you know,

routinely praise them and Eddie Howe and then spash them.

Elsewhere, what, Brentford, West Ham, Burnley Palace, Luton, Liverpool, and Shefford United Worlds as well.

We'll look back at all of those on Monday.

I don't think you should be just sort of dismissing Luton Liverpool out of hand.

This is a big game, Max.

Now, listeners of a certain age will remember a time during the mid to late 80s when,

and younger listeners aren't going to believe this, but Luton were Liverpool's bogey team.

Yeah, that's right, yeah.

They really were.

And there was in 1986, 87, when there were still FA Cup, you know, replays, replays, until you got a result.

Luton played Liverpool five times and Liverpool only won once.

And then,

yeah, from years on, Luton, and this was an all-conquering Liverpool side, but they always struggled to conquer Luton and Luton used to

cause them all sorts of problems.

Now, this season, in our previews, everyone's previews, Luton's biggest asset was, you know, Kenilworth Road.

Some big team's going to come a cropper at Kenilworth Road.

And I think it might be Liverpool this weekend.

And if not, assuming Liverpool go on to beat them 9-0 and I end up looking a complete clown, it'll be Manchester United in two games' time.

If that's at Kenilworth Road, I have to check.

Are you suggesting, Barry, that they reinstall the plastic pitch for this one?

That's

Ricky Hill.

No, it won't be Man United because they're at home.

But yeah, yeah, we did say some big teams going to come across.

True, we did.

Yeah, and I can feel it now.

You've sold it.

You've totally sold it to me.

Newton will then invoke the spirit of Mick Hartford, the Steen brothers, Mal Donaghy,

David Play,

and they will be Liverpool this weekend.

The original David Preece.

Yeah.

Ah, yes, Dave.

What a play.

He played for Cambridge for a while.

Played so deep.

It was a centre mid who played behind our goalkeeper, basically.

Legs utterly gone.

Yeah, totally back.

What a left foot he had.

Anyway, we should offer our sincere congratulations to Luton for hammering Liverpool.

Might as well not even play the game now, frankly.

And that'll do for part two.

We'll start part three with news of the 2034 World Cup.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Saudi Arabia has been confirmed as the sole bidder to host the 2034 Men's World Cup.

It has until July of 2024 to submit its full bid, and FIFA is due to publish its assessments at the end of next year.

I assess it.

Tick.

There you go.

Before confirming a vote is held at its Congress.

Jenny Afantino posted on Instagram: the bidding processes were approved by consensus via the FIFA Council, where all six confederations are represented after constructive dialogue and extensive consultation, alongside a photo of him holding the World Cup.

Saudi Arabian Football Federation President Yasser Al Missehal said, driven by a huge passion for the game by our young nation, the Saudi Arabian Football Federation is fully committed to meeting and exceeding the bid's requirements.

He also said hosting the tournament would be an open invitation to the world to experience our rich football culture.

Any thoughts, Johnny?

Well, I mean, this is this is a country of was it about thirty, thirty five, thirty six million people.

This is this is not Qatar.

They they have one of the biggest economies in the world.

They've just obviously set up the Saudi pro league and are pumping millions, you know, billions into that.

The stadiums will be fantastic.

The welcome that

fans can expect,

it will go very smoothly.

And

by 2034, Art FIFA obviously talks about spreading the game

to new areas.

And by 2034, it will have been 12 years since the World Cup visited the Persian Gulf.

obviously that's a huge opportunity for that part of the world to experience the festival of football once again that Saudi Arabia can provide.

And I, for one, I can't wait.

Why is everyone laughing?

Steve Coburn, Abnesty's head of economic and social justice, said human rights commitments must be agreed with potential hosts before finals decisions on hosting the tournaments are made.

FIFA must now make clear how it expects hosts to comply with its human rights policies.

It must also be prepared to halt bidding process if serious human rights risks are not credibly addressed.

FIFA expects any host to conform with the terms of the UN's guiding principles on business and human rights.

This would require, in FIFA's words, human rights and labour standards to be implemented by the bidding member associations, the governments, and other entities involved in the organisation of the competition, such as those responsible for the construction and renovation of stadiums, training sites, hotels, and airports.

But with the Saudi thing, is it not.

I mean,

it's almost to set aside.

The environmental aspect of this is just,

you know,

it's getting to the, it's getting ridiculous.

When you consider

the, you know, the US World Cup will be, you know, flying all over a continent.

And

why does football

seem to think it's above this?

The climate crisis.

Yeah, I mean, look, you see the increase in the Champions League.

You also see, you're right, the 2030 World Cup, which is in ostensibly southern Europe, northern Africa, but also has a couple of games in South America.

And it's not just the players, is it?

Because it's the fans, it's the media, it's everyone else that goes alongside it.

And if you if you move to a okay, so the next the next nation along through a process of what we will call diplomacy, in whose interest it is to keep fossil fuels as the major runner of industry or whatever around the world.

Now,

what's FIFA's green policy?

Because these things seem quite important at the moment.

I mean, we're sat in the midst of Storm Kieran.

I don't know if that has anything to do with global warming.

I suspect it might do.

And

the green aspect of

World Cup appears to be completely ignored.

Football is, you know, the sport of private jets and

where you've got teams flying from, what was the famous one, Arsenal to Norwich, sookham 13 minutes when when is the game gonna turn turn its face towards those aspects because it it it it it pays lip service to many other things how about the environment i mean i'm aware of the hypocrisy i am just about to jump on a plane quite a long way um but i will i will i will i will say for the record not a private jet uh i did ask the guardian but apparently no i i can't have my own boeing to take me back to the uk um aiden says would you max secretly have preferred it if cambridge did actually concede their own goal for the sheer ridiculousness of it um this was wickham nil cambridge nil and i watched the game and actually wasn't a bad game few chances for either side and then in the last minute um our left back danny andrew just headed the ball up in the air and our right back liam bennett then just hoided a volley from about 40 yards which bounced over our keeper's head and he lunged for it but didn't touch it and then it somehow bounced over the bar and it was quite a stressful moment that morning in my garden but yes part of me is slightly sad it didn't go in because i could have probably got a column out of it or something you know um anyway i'm beaten in three uh

on green day um i i'm sorry i've forgotten who sent this message but thank you says hey sid Just in case you didn't get those Green Day tickets, your son might be interested to know he can still co-own a football club with Billy Joe.

Much more fun than boring bars or rael etc welcome to paradise billy joe said the oakland roots fc billy joe armstrong becomes the co-owner of oakland roots and soul sc joining 3 000 new investors in a record-setting community investment round invest now wefunder.com slash oakland so you can be part of the same thing as uh billy joe we could get him on the pod yes johnny

i started to worry about how how oakland are going to negotiate the the the transfer window if if billy joe you know famously sleeps through the whole of August and only wants to be woken at the start of September, they are going to miss out on

a hell of a lot of recruitment potential.

I'm slightly worried I may incur the wrath of Bruin here, but after chatting about Green Day on Monday's pod, I sort of downloaded and listened to more or less their entire back catalogue, which is quite large.

They have some absolute bangers.

I'd just like to say it for the record that in the event of my demise, I would like good readings played as my coffin goes behind the curtain into the furnace.

I was going to say, Barry, it might surprise you to learn that I am not a fan of Green Day, but I was amazed once walking through the streets of Manchester.

Yankshite.

Bruin's favourite phrase, Yankschite.

Well,

yes, thank you, Jonathan.

And I...

I walked through the streets of Manchester with my brother and saw that, you know, you have that,

you had We Will Rock You

and Mamma Mia, which is a musical made of the songs of.

Yeah.

I was in We Will Rock You once.

Okay.

Well,

they had a Green Day version of this.

Oh, good.

Time of Your Life.

Is it called?

I had a sort of new respect for how big Green Day was.

That they've, you know, they've managed to, because what was the Rod one called?

Tonight's the Night.

I used to see, I used to drink down here in Victoria and see the old, the guy that would dressed as Rod in a sort of Rod wig

having a fag out the back before he went on.

But yeah, so yeah, Green Day, obviously bigger than I thought.

Did in Rod Stewart, the musical, did at any point he do the Scottish FA Cup draw half cut?

Was that

a deleted scene?

Producer Joel Johnny makes the mention that Billy Joe is singing Wake Me Up When September Ends.

We don't know if he's slept through August, do we?

Or maybe he's awake for all of August, in which case he's so spent from all his transfer window business that then he hibernates for the whole of September.

Oh, God, is it?

When September ends, you might have to.

Yeah, you might have to cut that joke.

It doesn't work now.

The joke doesn't work.

It's not the worst joke you've made today.

It's not.

No.

That one's

hopefully on the cutting room floor.

Yes, it was Mike, by the way, who emailed us about Billy Joe, owning a football club.

And Felix says, at university, a player who refed the second half of a league game didn't want to use a whistle that another player had already used.

We were discussing referees without whistles on the last pod.

Instead, he just shouted, toot, as loudly as I pitched.

It was utterly confusing.

Benji says, who is Max's favorite ever Dutch player, Ibrahimovic or Bluck Brolin?

Hashtag WollanderGate.

Daniel says, are you and the panel aware that Wollander is Swedish and not Dutch?

I am.

In the heat of the enjoyment of Barry's Dutch accent, I got my Wollanders and van der Volks in a muddle.

And please don't tell Wilson.

I apologise.

Although David Squires, Barry, did message me to say, need to hear more from Barry van Denning after your

excellent Dutch last week.

Save it for the live show.

And that'll do for today's podcast.

Yes, Johnny.

Oh, can I just make a little shout out for something?

Please.

Yeah, a friend of mine, well, friend of mine, fiverside teammate called Evan Gershkovitz is still in a Russian jail.

He's been imprisoned for doing his job at the Wall Street Journal.

Tomorrow night,

that's Friday evening at 8 p.m.

in Battersea Park in London, if you're around.

We're having a little kind of, you know,

not a benefit, just a kind of a game.

The Westminster lobby correspondent and some of his Fiverr side teammates like from his from our team to

not really raise money, just to raise awareness.

So if anyone wants to come down and watch me being terrifically shit at football,

that's what we're doing.

And it was his birthday last week.

Well said.

And I can corroborate, you will be terrifically shit.

And I didn't mean that.

That was harsh of me, wasn't it?

I'll take that, but can I take that back, Johnny?

The two ladies?

Darren, man.

I mean, my football,

I think I'm Declan Rice, but I'm actually Mark Noble.

That's my footballing character.

You've got to play within yourself.

You've just got to know what your limits are.

I play even further within myself than I think I need to play.

Right.

Yeah.

I think you'll do a great job.

Search for the hero inside yourself as a...

Well,

I think

that's a Dave Brellswood song, I think.

I think Letswood.

I'm pretty sure it's Heather Small, isn't it?

But you know, I mean, they both release so many songs at the same time.

It's very hard.

You can imagine to Dave singing it,

singing it to, yeah, singing it to Jaden Sancho, and then all will be.

That's Manchester United Solved, isn't it?

It's all come full circle.

Thanks, Barry.

Thank you.

Thanks, John.

Cheers.

Thanks, Johnny.

Cheers.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Max Sarms.

This is The Guardian.