Dan Burn and the pantheon of great headers, Fifa’s peace prize and more: Football Weekly Extra

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Speaker 9 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. A fun night in the Champions League.
Let's start with one of the greatest headers since Rude Hullett 88 or even B Glenn Denning versus Beaver 86.

Speaker 9 Dan Byrne with Predator boots for a forehead, curling it in from just inside the box to help Newcastle to victory. Manchester City is starting to look ominous.

Speaker 9 Phil Foden with two perfect Phil Foden finishes and Jeremy Doku's brilliant setting up Erling Haaland. Chelsea are held in Azerbaijan.

Speaker 9 Karabag aren't quite the carrier bags everyone thinks they are, but still a disappointing result for a side who are impossible to work out. Game of the night in Bruges, three-all with Barcelona.

Speaker 9 Victor Ossiman gets a hat-trick with the help of the Hound Ball or why is no one listening to me? We'll look ahead to the Premier League this weekend.

Speaker 9 Man City Liverpool stands out while Spursman United has Crisis Klaxen for someone written all over it, just like last season. And Champions Elect Arsenal go to the stadium of light.

Speaker 9 There's FIFAs, I can't believe it's not the Nobel Peace Prize. Peace Prize, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 9 On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max. From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon, hello.

Speaker 10 Hi, Max.

Speaker 9 And good morning, Lars Ivertson.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max.

Speaker 9 Bjorn says, Dan Byrne, best-headed goal this year, this decade. Stu, please, can we have a minimum 60-second expert analysis from Barry on Dan Byrne's header?

Speaker 9 How does that sit in the pantheon of exquisite-headed goals? Van Persi, Ronaldo, Espria, Barry. I mean, what? It was just such a broad.
The game wasn't fascinating.

Speaker 9 It was hard to know which was the most interesting game to start with, Barry. But just the moment it left his head, you're like, how is that going to...
How do you curl the ball with your head?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a really wonderful header. A really well-worked-free kick.
Kieran Tripier swung it towards the far post. Well, into space.
It wasn't particularly near the far post.

Speaker 1 Voltamata and somebody else blocked the...

Speaker 1 defenders while Dan Byrne ran around the side. And

Speaker 1 I think he slightly took took the gloss off what was a truly excellent finish

Speaker 1 by just saying afterwards he decided to head it as hard as he could because

Speaker 1 he did curl it in.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I can never remember if it's fade or draw that golfers use.

Speaker 1 That would have been a draw there, Barry. A draw.
Okay. Wonderful, wonderful finish.
Then you could see him when he was taken off, showing the other subs how he'd done it, miming his header.

Speaker 1 It was tremendous altogether. There's a lot not to like about Newcastle, but I think Dan Byrne is one of the things it really is okay to love about Newcastle.
He seems like a top bloke.

Speaker 1 He loves playing for them. It's his hometown club, and I think he couldn't believe his luck when they came in for him when he was at Brighton.

Speaker 1 I think there was a time was it last season when he was habitually being left trailing in the wake of far more quick attackers that we were writing him off and saying he was far too slow to play in this Newcastle team or maybe even to play Premier League football but he's proved his detractors wrong and yeah that that was a sensational goal really really enjoyed it we were having this conversation yesterday I think about Mickey van der Went about goals that you just don't often see you just go that does how does that work and I've I've just watched that header so many times and I mean, I think it's the same question to Barry.

Speaker 9 I just want to talk about it more. I can't think of a, I can't, I'm trying to think of other headers that are like that.
And maybe the camera angle is just Percy.

Speaker 1 He's done it before

Speaker 1 the carrier cup final.

Speaker 9 But no, not quite as good, I think, Mark. I'm not sure.
This feels better than that one. This was a better header.

Speaker 10 I think Van Percy is still, I would say, my favourite one just because it was so unusual. But

Speaker 10 I think just to build on that, the Dan Byrne loving, I mean, this is somebody that has had to go right away down the leads to come back up again.

Speaker 10 And you can see what it actually does mean to him to play for Newcastle, to score a goal in a cup final as well. For them, I always feel like he's vulnerable when he plays left back.

Speaker 10 Just always feel you go on the wing and get at him and you'll beat him. And some have.
I think he had a tricky game against Arsenal earlier on in the season, but he actually does the job fairly well.

Speaker 10 And he's got himself into the England squad.

Speaker 10 And with set pieces becoming increasingly important in both boxes to have somebody that strong in the air so tall so powerful i think it helps you a to defend them but b also to score goals um as well so yeah

Speaker 10 there's not a huge amount to love i think about sort of the the champions league as a whole really because it is just money grabbing but actually to see Dan Byrne um reveling in in the atmosphere of a big champions league night i think that is something to um keep us warm through these winter months i'm gonna correct myself because I just realized Dan Byrne is a lefty, isn't it?

Speaker 1 So bending it to the left. So that would be a phase.
I was thinking that. But then again, when you're doing it with your head, like it becomes, but this is me being biased towards because I'm righty.

Speaker 1 In the pantheon of great headers, I feel like they're being bringing the scandy bias. I have to mention Henry Clarson against Bulgaria in Euro 2004.
But fine, let's just put that in there.

Speaker 1 It just occurred to me that. I don't buy this that he said, I just headed as hard as he can.
I just think he wants to like dial the expectations down a bit.

Speaker 1 I think people saw him do that and then they think, whoa, what can he do next? to

Speaker 1 would you also start saying, people who can do that with their feet, we will always say, oh, he's got a cultured left foot and he's got one.

Speaker 1 Can we just say now, does Dan Byrne have a cultured head?

Speaker 1 Is that

Speaker 1 what you would? And I, I'm, every single,

Speaker 1 every single Dan Byrne header from now on, I'm going to be watching closely. Like, is he actually, is this, is he communicating something with this?

Speaker 1 I was just going to yes, and what Mark said about how great it is to have an extra tall guy on the, on the pitch, because yeah, the idea that he seemed to be too slow to do this.

Speaker 1 Not only is he playing regularly, but he's playing regularly like left back, where typically you need speedy boys.

Speaker 1 And having a fullback who's that big and strong means you still have two big center halves, and it just gives you like extra, extra aerial power here. It's great.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And actually, I mean, it's a bit like we were talking about, you know, the art of striking a football with Matty Cash and with Chana Loglu's corner to Zelensky and his finish.

Speaker 9 But that the art of heading it is actually not really discussed very much.

Speaker 9 Like, how actually, you know, there is a skill to doing this, you know, whether you're cushioning a header or you're trying to put one with power or put it back from where the keepers come from or whatever.

Speaker 9 And so, quite nice to have that opportunity to talk about one art of the game.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know if there's any, if anyone had any thoughts beyond not just does this mean we're going to have like heading clinics with Dan Byrne.

Speaker 1 Is that going to be the new sort of social media content we could have?

Speaker 10 Or a heading coach, like next to the set peeps coach, just a heading that comes on for flick-ons and yeah, we'll, we'll teach them how to like, there's probably something you do with your neck muscles and the timing to get the right swags on us yeah possibly um mark did you have any thoughts beyond this moment on this game yeah i think it was important for newcastle to win they've not got an easy run in so you know if you want to finish in the top eight you definitely needed to win this game just wanted to speak about um athletic and actually um i full um respect for dan burn who who didn't call them athletic bill bow and called them athletic club in his post-match interview so um he sort of,

Speaker 10 I felt that they were, like, they've got a lot of injuries at the moment to key players and it's really harming their chances.

Speaker 10 And it's a shame because they fought so hard to get into the Champions League. But particularly with Williams being out at the moment, like the team just lacks a bit of stardust.

Speaker 10 But it was an important win for Newcastle because, like, if you look at the league table at the moment,

Speaker 10 if you finish outside the top eight, it looks like it's going to be very competitive in that playoff round again. So there will be a desperate fight for those last couple of spots, I would say.

Speaker 1 I'd say the reason Dan Burn knew the proper name to address Athletic Club by is because Newcastle and they have this sort of special relationship,

Speaker 1 a unique bond, I keep hearing it called, that goes back to, I think, 1994 when they played each other in the WEFA Cup.

Speaker 1 And apparently, it's down to the fact that some athletic club fan got left behind in Newcastle and a kindly family of Geordie's took him in and gave him a bed for the night and fed him and watered him.

Speaker 1 And when athletic fans heard about this at the away leg, Athletic went through over the two legs.

Speaker 1 But the athletic fans invaded the pitch and instead of being violent, they applauded the travelling Newcastle fans. And this has forged this unique bond between the two clubs.

Speaker 1 I think Rob Lee's testimonial, it was Athletic Club who were invited to play in it. And it goes to show how rancorous an environment football can be.

Speaker 1 That's such a basic act of human kindness and result in such

Speaker 1 a strong relationship between two clubs.

Speaker 1 That's a very lovely and eloquent explanation, Barry, and something I didn't know. I just think he knows his athletic club because he has a cultured head.
Well, that's true. Probably.

Speaker 9 Of course. Let's go to

Speaker 9 Carabag 2, Chelsea 2. Chelsea have not won away in the Champions League since 2022.
And they continue to be an odd team.

Speaker 9 I guess Darls, if you could give us some context on what getting a point away at Carabag is, because I think instantly you think this is an embarrassment.

Speaker 1 But that actually haven't been bad, have they?

Speaker 9 They've beaten Benfica and Copenhagen so far, Carabag.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm still working them out a little bit because they had this brilliant comeback in Lisbon against Benfica

Speaker 1 where they were down and they turned the game around. And that essentially got Bruno Laus fired from the job there.

Speaker 1 And then they followed that up by beating FC Copenhagen at home in a game that was pretty even, really. But that's two wins in the Champions

Speaker 1 League phase for a team from Azerbaijan, which is great. But it also doesn't give us a lot of definitive proof of how good they really are.
It means they're not like atrocious, clearly.

Speaker 1 They can hold their own. But I'm still kind of working out how good they actually are.
But certainly...

Speaker 1 This was impressive in the sense that Chelsea had more possession, had more shots, but they were competitive and they played with a good intensity i mean the the coach uh gurban gurbanov has been there since 2008 which which is not something that you typically see uh in

Speaker 1 modern football and they are a team that has i mean they're owned by uh one of the bigger sort of holding companies in in azerbaijan so there's a little bit of power behind them but we're when we're talking about sort of teams from outside the European football mainstream they're they're definitely minnows they're not like high-powered minnows like Shaktar were back in the day for instance And they've been very, very impressive in what they've done in the group stage so far.

Speaker 9 Mark, Chelsea made seven changes to the team that beat Spurs at the weekend. I presume you were at that game.

Speaker 9 They've made 85 changes to their starting 11s this season in all competitions, the most of any Premier League sides.

Speaker 9 I mean, it feels like a difficult number to comprehend if that's a ludicrous number of changes or how many changes you would make.

Speaker 9 And there's obviously a balance between you've got to play all these games, you've got a big squad, but also it's quite hard to find rhythm, I guess, which makes Chelsea, you know, routinely difficult to kind of understand.

Speaker 10 They are.

Speaker 10 It's mainly a young team as well. So I think that will bring about inconsistencies.

Speaker 10 The team selection, I think it's right to

Speaker 10 rotate as much as Maresica is doing. You've got to remember they reached the, well, they won the Club World Cup.
So their preseason

Speaker 10 was not.

Speaker 10 uh usual um and i i think we're still trying to work out exactly what that means psg are picking up a lot of injuries um at the moment moment themselves and they reach the final might just be pure coincidence.

Speaker 10 So I think that Mareska does have to manage that

Speaker 10 and he's got a big squad so if he doesn't rotate then players will get increasingly unhappy. So I think that he's doing the right thing in rotating.

Speaker 10 I thought this was a pretty poor performance from Chelsea, though, particularly first half and maybe slightly fortunate that they were only one goal behind, but they have got real star quality.

Speaker 10 Esteveo is

Speaker 10 it feels just like a matter of time before he actually becomes like a real superstar. And he's well on the way to doing it.
He's making important

Speaker 10 contributions off the bench at the moment.

Speaker 10 Won't be long before he is really lighting up the Champions League and will become one of those players, I think, that is just undroppable for Chelsea.

Speaker 9 Philippe saying, French TV analysis of Carabag Chelsea at half-time consists of a worst of compilation of Jarrell Hatto hato in the first 45 minutes seems harsh doesn't it yeah he he had a shocker it was he was responsible for the first goal um

Speaker 1 he

Speaker 1 uh almost gave away a penalty before that was scored and then he did give away a penalty for the second it was a night to forget for the young man yeah but this i suppose this is really yeah he's come into chelsea um

Speaker 10 maybe could have done with another year or two um at iax but you know chelsea want to bring in these players. And I think that just comes back to what I was saying earlier.

Speaker 10 Really young players will make mistakes.

Speaker 10 Older players make mistakes as well. But you just feel like

Speaker 10 that is part of the risk and reward of what Chelsea are trying to do.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not making excuses for Chelsea here. They clearly have the resources and the manpower and all this to go and beat a team from Azerbaijan.

Speaker 1 But for people who are not aware, like, it is a trick.

Speaker 1 It's a five-hour flight with an added four-hour time difference because they don't do daylight savings times. It would normally be three hours, but this time of year, it's four hours.

Speaker 1 So you're doing, when you're flying out there from the UK, they will have flown out in the middle of the day and arrived basically late, late at night.

Speaker 1 And it's like, it does mess around with your, having, having spent a little bit of time in the Southern Caucasus region the last couple of years, it does mess around with your body clock a little bit.

Speaker 1 And like, it's not easy to just go there, reset, do something, and go straight back again.

Speaker 1 It's a genuinely sort of, it's a bit of a throwback as an away trip, really, to a time where zipping around Europe wasn't quite as easy as it is now.

Speaker 1 And I think they make a really interesting addition to the Champions League for that reason. And of course, it's going to be even worse for the guys who have to go to Kazakhstan, I guess.

Speaker 10 I think Chelsea tried to stay on sort of UK times, which would have brought about its own complications as well.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it makes it sound like they had to get the Orient Express all the way to the Caucasus there. You know, Enzo Mareska, you know, just throwing coal into the front of a steam train.

Speaker 9 Anyway, to to the ATN Manity 4, Dortmund one. Barry Mantity were extremely good in this game.

Speaker 9 Phil Foden's goals were beautiful. The setup from Doku for Haaland was great.
What did you make of it all?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I pretty much agree with what you've said.

Speaker 1 I think Dortmund made it quite easy for them,

Speaker 1 left lots of... nice inviting spaces between their back five and the next line of defence for Phil Foden to

Speaker 1 find pockets in, and

Speaker 1 it's

Speaker 1 through that that he scored. Unlike against Bournemouth, City's wingers were playing out wide, sort of hugging the touchline, making the pitch big.
That made life difficult for Dortmund.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, Erling Harland was doing Erling Harland things. I think that's 54 goals he scored now in 52 Champions League games for Salzburg, Dortmund, and City.

Speaker 1 He scored his goal here. And then there was one memorable occasion where he got a touch of the Mickey Van de Vennes and decided to just charge up field.

Speaker 1 I think by the time he got near the edge of the box, there was four or five Dortmund players around him trying to get the ball from him. So he just squared it to, I think it was Nick O'Reilly.

Speaker 1 who was in acres of space because all these defenders had been drawn to Haaland and he should have scored, but Cobel saved his shot. He got it too close to the keeper.

Speaker 1 But it was a very straightforward win for City, although Dorman did have chances. Donaroma had to make a couple of saves, but it was a pretty easy night at the office.

Speaker 9 Mark, where's Phil Foden? On what's his on-the-plane status right now, would you say?

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah, I'd say he's probably still more off the plane than on the plane, given the balance that I think that Tuchel wants in the side.

Speaker 10 I was one of those that was championing the Phil Foden on the left.

Speaker 10 I'll sort of hold my hands up and say, you know, that was, you know, I feel like I wasn't the only one, but a lot of people jumped off that bus pretty quickly during the Euros.

Speaker 10 I still feel like the problem was more that they had a right back playing at left back rather than Phil Foden himself, but clearly

Speaker 10 had a very bad season last year, almost unexplainably bad and the fitness didn't seem to be there.

Speaker 10 And, you know it's hard to know if maybe there was a few off-field stuff because it just wasn't that the Phil Foden that we'd seen going into

Speaker 10 the Euros and if somebody said to me like describe a classic Phil Foden goal I think it would have been the two that he got against Ortmond where he picks the ball up really quick feet and it's powerful but also placed really nicely as well he's got that quick feet and he seems to be enjoying football again and he definitely wasn't doing that last season I think he does want to play centrally and he made that fairly clear and he does do his best work in that position but in terms of like the England question there's a lot of players that do play in that exact same role and the emergence of say Anderson sort of further back as well has just added the complications there.

Speaker 10 I'd say Bellingham would be ahead of Foden still if you were looking to play like a natural number 10.

Speaker 9 And Rogers, I guess, at the moment.

Speaker 10 Yeah, and Rogers is somebody that's got the trust and Cole Palmer's to come back. So there are a lot of good players there.

Speaker 10 I just hope that Foden can just continue to enjoy his football for the rest of the season. If he does that and plays to that level, it makes it difficult to leave out.

Speaker 10 But yeah, there's a lot of good players in that position.

Speaker 9 I love the way Lars,

Speaker 9 the way Jeremy Doku gets away from...

Speaker 9 I can't remember who it was for Haaland's goal. It's such an extraordinary change of pace, isn't it?

Speaker 1 So Doku is incredible he has this his ability one-on-one i don't i'm not sure there's anyone better in the world to be honest at just going past the man at just skinning someone one-on-one down the flank there but he's never really like even going back to at ren the season before he joined man city he was a little in and out of the team uh i got the numbers in front of me now he started 13 and came off the bench 16.

Speaker 1 and it's been the same with cz the two seasons he's been there started 18 the first season came off the bench at 11 then started 16 came off the bench 13.

Speaker 1 the point i'm making is that he's someone who's yet to like fully become as consistent as you want him to be. I do feel like he's kind of taking some steps this season.

Speaker 1 Again, he's being used off the bench a little bit more, but I feel like his actual output in terms of real end products has gotten a little better. Three assists so far this year.

Speaker 1 And it is an incredible weapon city. It has.
He is such an unbelievable dribbler.

Speaker 1 Maybe he is someone who will also, in the way that Holland has benefited this season from City sitting a little deeper, giving him more space to run into.

Speaker 1 That sort of tactical tweak is something that probably benefits Doku a little bit as well.

Speaker 9 Mark, just a question on Joe Bellingham at Dortmund and

Speaker 9 how is he faring? Only two appearances so far.

Speaker 10 Yeah,

Speaker 10 not great.

Speaker 10 Well documented that maybe the Bellingham family are not happy with the minutes that he's been receiving in Dortmund and that I think caused more problems than sort of helped him with sort of reports of his dad getting involved in sort of trying to tell the club that he should be playing more often.

Speaker 10 I think it was a big step for him. He's just a player that was playing in the championship because his name's Bellingham,

Speaker 10 like he's just expected to be as good as Dude Bellingham straight away. And that is just really unfair.

Speaker 10 Just because they've got the same surname doesn't mean they're the same player. Doesn't mean they've got the same potential.
Doesn't mean he will go on to play for Real Madrid.

Speaker 10 So I think there needs to be some patience, but he wouldn't be somebody that Dortmund, as those stats show, that they're relying on really at the moment.

Speaker 9 All right, that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll begin in Bruges.

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Speaker 9 and welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So brilliant game in Bruce Club Ruger 3, Barcelona 3.
Mark, you watched this one. So opened.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I mean, I had to take one for the team, didn't I? Really?

Speaker 10 Barry and Lars had taken the really good game. So I said, oh, watch Barcelona.
And yeah, I mean,

Speaker 10 it was the most fun. I don't know if you've heard, but Barcelona liked to play with a high line.

Speaker 1 And it looks so ridiculous to me.

Speaker 9 Whenever they can see the goal, it looks so ridiculous. Clearly, there are advantages to having a high line.
We know that. But when they can see that, was it the second, the second goal?

Speaker 9 I think Forbes' first goal. And you're like, how is there just one defender? And also like a really tiny person, not that that's necessarily relevant.
How is that possible, Mark?

Speaker 10 Because when Bruges get the ball, all of the Barcelona players just run forward and sort of, you know, you,

Speaker 10 I think it might have been the first goal where there's about sort of seven or eight Barcelona players in just the image, all near the halfway line, because the defenders are rushing up, and the midfielder not quite putting pressure on the ball.

Speaker 10 And like, it looks terrible when it goes wrong. You're absolutely right, Max.

Speaker 10 Of course, there are benefits to that, and had 23 shots in the game, and maybe they wouldn't have been able to have done that without putting pressure higher up the pitch.

Speaker 10 But defending like that doesn't feel like you'll win the Champions League, and it's called them out in La Liga as well at times this season, already lost the Clásico.

Speaker 10 I thought that Club Bruges were fantastic in this game because they didn't just sit back and accept their fate.

Speaker 10 They knew they would have to defend, but they poured forward when the opportunities arose. I thought Forbes, he got the two goals, set up another one.

Speaker 10 That pace just off the right flank caused Barcelona a lot of problems. And Vannekin in midfield, sort of attacking midfield position, like someone who's been at sort of Bruges, just hanging around.

Speaker 10 And they bring in a lot of younger players. He's a fantastic footballer and really clever and intelligent and helped to dictate when they went forward, what they were trying to do.

Speaker 10 So it was definitely the game of the night. Absolutely loved it.
Barcelona could have won. They could have lost.
At one stage, I did lose.

Speaker 10 the score in my head because there was there was a penalty that was given and then disallowed there was a goal that was given and then disallowed it becomes quite chaotic in those moments, but a fantastic game.

Speaker 1 Mark, you main screened this.

Speaker 1 I had like revolving highlights from all the games on the second screen, and it was farcical because every time they went to this game, it felt like it was either a good Barcelona attack, and let's be fair, there were a lot of those as well.

Speaker 1 But every time it felt like they went to this and Bruges was doing something, it was the same move.

Speaker 1 It was like a long ball into space, off and out wide to Forbes, and just a pile of space everywhere, and no Barcelona players anywhere near it.

Speaker 1 And like deep into the second half, this was still happening. And

Speaker 1 was there any you were watching it properly? Was there any sense that Hansi Flake was trying to adjust, was trying to adapt, trying to do something? Or was he just going there going, Yavol?

Speaker 1 I guess this is what we are doing in this football game. Like, I just think this is really extremely weird behavior by the coach.

Speaker 10 It was weird. And no, they didn't try to change, even though Brugia clearly worked out like a way to just beat the offside trap.
And it did involve Forbes just being quicker.

Speaker 10 And so as long as he timed his run, they were always able to get in. And it was quite, it was an easy outball.
They They didn't have to play amazing football to just create chances.

Speaker 10 But you are also right, Lars, that some of Barcelona's attacking play, Lamin Yamau in the second half, particularly, was devastating. And his goal,

Speaker 10 the combination play with Olmo, was that was unbelievable as well.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that was joyous, Barry, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, he picked up the ball, skipped past two defenders to the edge of the area, played it light and fast,

Speaker 1 one, two. I thought it was Lopez or Almo, Almo, one or the other, received a return pass, and then, just with the outside of his left boot, sort of shunted it into the bottom corner.

Speaker 1 It was a beautiful goal. I'm curious to know, Mark, or anyone, what did you make of the

Speaker 1 Club Brugger winner in Inverted Commons that was disallowed by

Speaker 1 our own Anthony Taylor? I thought it was a bit harsh.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I thought it was harsh. But I think it might be a foul.

Speaker 10 I agree with Max.

Speaker 10 I think Chesney knows that he has messed up and then is able to kind of make the foul almost you know normally it's the other way around normally is normally the attacker makes contact with a goalkeeper to win a penalty um it was sort of reverse of that really where um chesney's uh croith turn um goes wrong and then he um i think he panics realizes that um he's in big trouble and manages to collide with the attacking player um yeah i i thought um that summed up Barcelona, really, though.

Speaker 10 Sloppy. They were my tip to win Champions League at the start, but I'm going off that more with every match, really.

Speaker 9 Benfica and Nil Leva Cousin won. I mean, Benfica have nought points in their campaign, which isn't very many points, Lars.

Speaker 1 Arguably the lowest number of points they could have had at this point.

Speaker 9 They should have won this game 5-0, I think.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the Greek forward Pavlidis, who's been otherwise pretty sharp this season, has

Speaker 1 had some good games. He's got

Speaker 1 a, just look that up now, and he's got eight games and nine domestically and, you know, not a bad striker, but he had a couple of really bad misses in this.

Speaker 1 One which particularly insulted me because it would have been a great assist by the Norwegian Fredrik Ausnes, who was playing right back for the occasion, played a very clever ball into him that he missed, which is upsetting for me.

Speaker 1 And yeah, things have Benfica, Jose Mourinho coming back has not completely revolutionized them. They've had a couple of good wins in the league recently, to be fair to Jose,

Speaker 1 but in the Champions League, they have played Chelsea, Newcastle, and Levikusen, which I think is not an easy run of three games to have in the Champions League. But yeah, still no points.

Speaker 9 A hat-trick barry for Victor Ossiman with a lot of help from the handball law.

Speaker 1 I mean, you can imagine.

Speaker 9 You can imagine what I was going through when I got to this game.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, my notes for this game are Ossiman diving header from Leroy Sane Cross. Good goal, got in front of his man and got the crucial flick.
And then 02, Osaman penalty for a stupid handball.

Speaker 1 And 0-3, another stupid handball, another Osaman penalty. The first one, the ball is crossed into the penalty area, and the ball goes off the defender's leg and hits his hand.

Speaker 1 Now, I thought that couldn't be a handball if it comes off another part of your body and hits your hand.

Speaker 1 But I think there was two penalties given like that in various games last night so i must be wrong they were both daft but again we're talking about it and there's a much lower or is it higher lower higher a different threshold

Speaker 1 for this in the champions league than there is in the premier league and the one in the premier league is already ridiculous but this one is in the champions league it's even more ridiculous somebody on the radio yesterday texted me to say why don't don't they have a different penalty spot, like a bit further back for these stupid hand balls?

Speaker 1 I actually quite like that idea.

Speaker 9 You know, just like, just make it more difficult. Have it on the edge of the box or something.
Because then you're going, okay, fair enough. It's a free shop.
It's not, that's just adding something.

Speaker 9 I know. As soon as you suggest anything that changes the game, it was, oh, you can't do that.
But honestly, one day there'll be an uprising. One day there will.

Speaker 9 But like, until then, like, clearly, I, I don't know. People aren't listening to me.
I can't be the one to lead it.

Speaker 1 I'm in favor of the indirect free kick solution because I get that.

Speaker 1 Like, with the first one of these in particular, it feels unfair of the defender, but it is also a cross that's coming in, that's going into a dangerous area, and he does stop it with his hand.

Speaker 1 And I can kind of accept how that there needs to be some kind of consequence for that. But I also just think essentially giving the other team a goal is not a rational consequence to that.

Speaker 1 That doesn't make sense. So, can we have some kind of I don't think there should be.

Speaker 9 I just think sometimes.

Speaker 1 Can we not just, I just want more indirect free kicks in the box because they're really funny. I think I think that's a valid argument here.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I agree with you. Or direct.
It doesn't matter. Make it direct, but like have all the players in the way.
That's fine. That is also entertaining.

Speaker 1 It's probably worth noting also that on the back of this defeat, which to be fair was entirely deserved, Ajax,

Speaker 1 like Benfica, are also on no points after four games, which is not a lot of points. They're an absolute mess.
I really don't know how Johnny Heitinga is still the coach of this team.

Speaker 1 I know it's, I mean, they've drawn five of the first 11 in the league. Like, they're already eight points back in the league, and they have zero points in the Champions League.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 obviously, he's young. He's a young coach.
He's still figuring things out, but I'd really be very surprised if he's still there by January. I think Ten Haag might go back.

Speaker 1 Oh, God, that might be an option, wouldn't it? I mean,

Speaker 1 I kind of feel like he needs to take some time out of the game and chill and meditate and do some television work or something because the Levikusen thing was so bad that that was such an embarrassing thing for him.

Speaker 1 But maybe, maybe going back to Ajax, man.

Speaker 9 Is TV work and meditation the same thing? I don't know.

Speaker 1 No, but I think it's a way for coaches to have like, if you've, if you've done such a big boo-boo that like no one takes you seriously anymore, TV work can be like a way of like, if you turn up and you make some good points and you seem like a rational human being, that can kind of be a way to get yourself back in the frame.

Speaker 9 Mark into one again. They beat Kyrak 2-1.

Speaker 9 Not a classic, but sort of into again,

Speaker 9 you know, doing the business without anyone suggesting, you know, they'll be good, but they are one of three teams with a hundred percent record.

Speaker 10 Yeah, whenever I watch them, they're not very good, um, but they are getting wins at the moment. Yeah, they're doing probably better than I expected domestically as well.

Speaker 10 I was, I was anticipating quite a big drop-off this season. I'm not sure that they are playing to the same standards, but they keep winning in the Champions League.

Speaker 10 Lautaro put them in front, but Kairat equalized relatively early in the second half. Arad got the goal.
I mean, it was a night of good headers because

Speaker 10 it was a really nice header from him, and also Schick's header would ordinarily, you know, have maybe been spoken about more, but because of Dan Burns' heroics, it doesn't.

Speaker 10 But then it was Carlos Augusto that got into the win. It was a really strong finish from the edge of the ball.

Speaker 9 Yeah, nice car.

Speaker 10 A game that you would, again, into should win. They did win, deserve to win, but wasn't massively pretty.

Speaker 9 Atalanta won one in Marseille, Barry. And actually, good.

Speaker 1 It's almost the Wilson scenario at the end of this game, wasn't wasn't there so um atlanta's ederson handled the ball in his own box actually this is one that it came off his foot first and then hit his hand uh the ref didn't seem quite sure what to do while all the marseille players appealed for a penalty and more or less stopped playing Atalanta broke upfield and Lazar Sarnardzic cut inside from the right, ping an absolute beauty into into the top corner from distance.

Speaker 1 And he celebrated scoring.

Speaker 1 Marseille's players and coaching staff went berserk because they thought they should have had a penalty.

Speaker 1 And the ref finally decided, I think with the assistance of Var, to let the goal stand. And Marseille were...

Speaker 1 diddled out of what possibly might have been a penalty. I don't know anymore.

Speaker 1 But this game was also also interesting because Adamola Luckman, who seems to have a quite fractious relationship with Atlanta and I think wanted to leave during the summer, when he was subbed off, he said something to our old friend Ivan Urich,

Speaker 1 former Southampton manager, and Urich sort of did a double take and grabbed him by the biceps and sort of... quite aggressively.
And then Luckman was ushered away by some of Urich's assistants.

Speaker 1 And so there seems to be some sort of bad blood there or beef between the two of them.

Speaker 1 But yeah, an interesting game.

Speaker 9 Do you think Luckman said, did you manage Southampton last year?

Speaker 1 Roberto Deserbi did

Speaker 1 find a screen, a freeze frame of the handball incident on an iPad and tried to show it to the referee, which I think

Speaker 1 listeners might know that sort of disrespect towards referees, and that is a big hobby horse of mine. It's a big problem.

Speaker 1 But actually, I find, yeah, finding the evidence on the iPad of showing it is just on the right side of comedy for me to actually be, yeah, that's fine. It did immediately get a yellow card.

Speaker 1 So, so good value all around. Can I just say, I have a feeling that the original Wilson scenario was even more intricate.

Speaker 1 And I think it's a loophole that has now been closed because there was one season, I believe it was only one season, where the rules said any handball at all, intentional, natural, whatever, if it's the guy who scores the goal or the guy who assists it, it has to be blown up.

Speaker 1 Now they've changed that now. Now I think it's only the goal scorer, but for one season it was for the assist as well, if you handle the ball before giving the assist.

Speaker 1 And that meant you might plausibly have a scenario where a defender, for instance, handles the ball completely accidentally, not punishable handball in his own box, then boots it long and puts someone through.

Speaker 9 That gives the Terricky Van de Ven.

Speaker 1 Well, yes. Oh, also that, yeah.
That player would then be in a position where if he scores, it is a punishable handball and a penalty down the other end. But if he misses, it's fine.

Speaker 1 That was an actual mechanic in the rules for about one season before I think someone realized, actually, that's really stupid and we need to close that hole.

Speaker 1 But for about one season, that was a real thing.

Speaker 9 Pavos Pete Villarel, the other one, 1-0. First ever win in the Champions League, Mark, for them.

Speaker 10 Yeah, and I mean, a great one as well. A surprise one.
You know, this is a team that obviously Champions League debutants. They've got money um you know so

Speaker 10 but in relative terms they haven't got as much as some of the teams that they're competing against and to to beat a you know i think they're rael third in the liga at the moment certainly having a a very strong domestic campaign it's uh an amazing result really for pathos who twice already in this competition have been down to 10 men and have managed to kind of pick up points and now a win as well so yeah a team that i assumed would finish in kind of the the bottom places maybe sort of last or one from last, but are making a good fist of it at the moment.

Speaker 10 Terrible result for Villarreal and not a great night for the La Liga, or week really for the La Liga representatives.

Speaker 9 All right, that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll do a Premier League preview.

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Speaker 9 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. We want a bit of time to talk about the peace prize, so let's rattle through the Premier League games.
Man City Liverpool stands out, Mark.

Speaker 9 How do you see it?

Speaker 10 How do I see it? I don't know. I might go for the Barry answer there.

Speaker 10 I'm not sure.

Speaker 10 I think it is really, really tough. Liverpool against Real Madrid,

Speaker 10 probably best and most complete performance of the season.

Speaker 10 Had that midfield back working again,

Speaker 10 defended well, didn't give up many opportunities. But I still don't know if I trust them in this game as much as I would have done sort of this time last year.
And Erling Haaland,

Speaker 10 you've almost got like one goal up, haven't you, when he's sort of playing at the moment? You just think, well, he'll score.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 one player that I haven't given much credit to for Man City that I think is playing quite well at the moment is Nico Gonzalez, who I think is fair to had a tough time when he arrived first in the Premier League.

Speaker 10 And he's not as good as Rodri,

Speaker 10 and it looked like that when he first came in. But I actually feel like this season, when he's been in, he's played to a much sort of better level.

Speaker 10 And the quality now with the city have got in midfield with with Reinders and Foden and Nico Gonzalez, I think that can stand up maybe to what Liverpool have got as well.

Speaker 10 So I'd probably edge towards City

Speaker 10 just purely because of the Haaland factor, I would say.

Speaker 1 I also just think a big part of playing Gonzalez there is that you're not playing Tiani Reinders there, which I think we all agree should not be happening because then you're kind of nullifying his strengths and also asking him to do stuff he's not very good at.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 9 I'd be interested to see. I presume Liverpool will play a very similar side to the side that did so well against Real Madrid.

Speaker 9 Leaders arsenal barry go to the stadium of light the inevitable granite jacker uh goal i i don't know maybe i have a sneaky feeling that sunder might do something but but maybe that's just sort of blind hope rather than anything else a lot of people seem to have that sneaky feeling look

Speaker 1 if they want to beat arsenal they have to score against them that's not too many people doing that they also have to not concede which is also very difficult against that arsenal side and if they do concede then they have to score a two two to win.

Speaker 1 Could they sneak a draw or a jammy one-il win? Maybe.

Speaker 1 But usually,

Speaker 1 if I expect Sunderland to do something, the good, positive, they invariably don't. I think people are putting a lot of hope in Sunderland then and it might be misguided.

Speaker 1 Arsa should beat them, but who knows?

Speaker 9 Yeah, actually, I'm just trying to work out if this is the first trip that Arsenal have made to, you know, one of those sort of cauldrons. And it's a late kickoff, isn't it?

Speaker 9 You know, that kind of atmosphere.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 9 maybe I'm doing some other team a grave disservice of where they've already been.

Speaker 10 I mean, we've been to Newcastle.

Speaker 1 We've been to Liverpool.

Speaker 9 Okay, I'll take it back.

Speaker 1 Do you want me to list the various clubs that you've dissed here now? They've played away games for Arsenal this season.

Speaker 1 They've played away to United, away to Liverpool, away to Athletic Club, away to Port Vale, away to Newcastle, away to Fulham, away to Burnley, and away to Slavia Prague.

Speaker 1 So all of those teams, no cauldrons, according to Max Rushton. They came out of the Fulham cauldron on the stage,

Speaker 1 didn't they?

Speaker 9 Spurs Man United, quite a strong Spurs contingent on the pod today. That Copenhagen result, even if it was just Copenhagen, felt really needed after the Chelsea game.

Speaker 10 Yeah, the discontent in the stands after the Chelsea game. Not, I would say, at the result, but at the performance and

Speaker 10 the way that they tried to go about that game, much more enjoyable against Copenhagen, Copenhagen, and not Chelsea. I mean, let's let's just hope this game is every bit the clutch of the league final

Speaker 1 was where

Speaker 10 it's probably the worst, probably the worst game of football you could ever wish to see.

Speaker 10 It's really hard to just work out, sort of, I would say even more where Manchester United are at the moment because I know that it feels like they're progressing, but away from home,

Speaker 10 I still would worry about just the amount of chances that they give up,

Speaker 10 even against Forrest. There's a couple of goals, um, and it wasn't that long ago they were getting hammered by Brentford.

Speaker 10 So, this would be an opportunity, I think, for Tottenham to show that they have got a creative side to them and are able to open up Premier League teams, but they haven't done it too often this season.

Speaker 10 So, I'm trying to stay patient with Thomas Frank's only been 10 Premier League games. It's not been long, it just feels like every Premier League game is such an event, and

Speaker 10 so much is spoken about every one, you know, every single performance that

Speaker 10 I think we do just sort of lose just the reality of kind of the fact that he's only been there a couple of months and needs to be given time.

Speaker 10 But I agree that had the Copenhagen game not gone the way that it did,

Speaker 10 I think he would have been under big pressure.

Speaker 1 The lads it's Tottenham days are well and truly behind Manchester United now because I think in their last seven meetings with Spurs they've lost five, drawn two,

Speaker 1 which is not to say they won't rouse themselves to win this one, but I wouldn't be putting a huge amount of faith in this Manchester United revival just yet.

Speaker 1 But I listen, I understand from Thomas Prank's perspective, I don't know for a fact that this is what's happened, but listen, he's taken over a team that was one of the worst defenses in the league last season.

Speaker 1 They were actually the worst non-relegated defense in the league last season. They were so bad defensively, it was ridiculous.

Speaker 1 And I think it's understandable then to just start, we need to sort that out, like, we need to build some kind of more solid fundament at the back there.

Speaker 1 We need to stop losing the ball in dumb areas, we need to pass it a little safer. All of that is fine, but we're in November.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm kind of hoping that they add something because currently they're kind of playing with the Palinia Bentankur uh thing in midfield.

Speaker 1 None of them really pass the ball forwards, so that leads you to a situation where you're kind of knocking it long a lot of the time and with no Solanke up there to kind of compete for those balls.

Speaker 1 A lot of them don't really

Speaker 1 go to anyone,

Speaker 1 or Or you're playing it wide early to Kudus and Odeba. Kudus in particular is such a great individualist.
Some of the things I said about Doku earlier apply to Kudus as well. But there's a lot of like

Speaker 1 hopeful long balls to no one in particular and then balls out to Kudus. Maybe he can do something, but there's not like poor Chowi Siemens has been bad.

Speaker 1 Like he hasn't come to grips with the Premier League yet, but he is also kind of... drifting around in that area, just not getting the ball in any sort of, it was like,

Speaker 1 listeners don't know this, but we're doing video now, and I've kind of recently gotten rid of a lot of my hair because my sort of forelock of the civets and eyelashes, yeah, the forelock had become like not so much a part of my hair as just like a sole patch of the forehead.

Speaker 1 You know, it was just a sort of thing that was there on its own, not connected to anything.

Speaker 1 That's been Chavi Siemens in quite a lot of games for Tottenham this season, and it's a little bit his fault, but it's not entirely his fault that none of the central midfielders pass the ball forwards ever.

Speaker 1 So, this kind of stuff, I feel like Spurs, they do need to improve.

Speaker 1 Uh, and I don't think the alarm bells are ringing ringing quite yet, but I have noticed that there are some bells on that wall over there.

Speaker 1 And another month of the team just not being able to pass the ball. And I think we'll see the alarm bells jiggle, if nothing else.

Speaker 9 Yeah, yeah, I think Manchester United could get something out of this game.

Speaker 9 Elsewhere, Chelsea Wolves, Palace, Brighton, Villa, Bournemouth, Brentford, Newcastle, Forest Leeds, Fulham, Everton, and West Ham, Burnley. Any of those games?

Speaker 1 Well, it's just a really good list of fixtures ahead of the international break. You know, Everton Fulham, that's a big game between two teams who aren't setting the world on fire.

Speaker 1 Same West Ham Burnley, Chelsea Wolves. Who's in charge of Wolves this week? I don't even know.
It would probably be anyone really.

Speaker 1 Probably Steve Bull. It's got to be Steve Bull in it.
And then obviously Palace Brighton,

Speaker 1 those two sets of hands absolutely hate each other. Villa Bournemouth's an interesting one near the top of the table.
Newcastle are rather enigmatic.

Speaker 1 They're doing very very well in the champions league can't string a few results together in uh the premiers league and they travel to london again to play brentford who are up and down so that could go either way and forest leads is another interesting one down the near the bottom so it's a real yeah good good

Speaker 1 good work by the fixture generator this week and before uh we go into another interlol villa bournemouth for me is the one I'm looking forward to out of the sort of the rest here because I

Speaker 1 at the at the risk of enraging the Villa faithful, I don't really buy the Aston Villa revival.

Speaker 1 I know they had this run of like five straight wins before they lost and four straight wins in the league and all this sort of stuff, but I think their underlying numbers are kind of a little stinky.

Speaker 1 Like for the Football Weekly bingo card, like I've almost made an entire episode without mentioning XG, but here we go.

Speaker 1 Like only Burnley has created a lower XG number going forward so far this season. That seems bad.

Speaker 1 I don't like that. They've won a couple of games now, but I don't think they've looked very good.
And they've got Bournemouth coming, who I think are a more impressive outfit in a number of ways.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the big test for Villa to see if to put some substance behind the Villa revival.

Speaker 9 Terry says, I'd like to think that the Guardian Football Weekly community could get behind the campaign for Barry Glendenning to be the inaugural FIFA Peace Prize winner, to give it the gravitas it so richly deserves.

Speaker 9 Yes, if we don't win the FSA this year, we are coming for the FIFA Peace Prize. We have been nominated for Podcast of the Year at the Football Supporters Association.

Speaker 9 We didn't win it last year after many years of winning it, and the blame lies solely with you, the listeners. Yes.

Speaker 9 So come on, sort it out. It's not a given.
It's not a done deal. Your vote actually matters.
We all got complacent. And this time, you know, to lose two in a row, Barry, would be shameful.

Speaker 1 It would be shameful.

Speaker 1 We lost it last year due to a combination of our own listeners' apathy and reluctance to just take 30 seconds out of their day to go and vote for us and the football ramble galvanizing their listenership to vote early and often and repeatedly.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 yeah, you can't let us down again. I got so complacent.
I even had my speech ready when I went to the awards last year.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 it was really late in the evening. i think it was the last award they give out and i was actually hoping we wouldn't win because i was too drunk to give the speech

Speaker 9 i mean it hasn't stopped you in the past i would say barry um

Speaker 9 uh Lots of Football Weekly family are nominated Lucy Ward, Seb Hutchinson, Guardian Women's Football Weekly, Sophie Downey, not the top 20. So vote for them and do vote for us.

Speaker 9 And clearly, if we go on a sort of shameless

Speaker 9 social media campaign to win, that's not embarrassing. If another podcast does it, then it doesn't count.

Speaker 1 It's pitiful. It's needy.

Speaker 9 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, on the Peace Prize, more importantly, FIFA President Jenny Infantino announced at something called the American Business Forum, which I've looked into.

Speaker 9 It doesn't seem like an event I'd necessarily want to be at.

Speaker 9 He's creating the FIFA Peace Prize to be awarded each year to, quote, individuals who help unite people in peace through unwavering commitment and special actions.

Speaker 9 The inaugural award will be presented on the 5th of December during the World Cup draw at the Kennedy Center for Performing Arts in Washington, Washington, D.C.

Speaker 9 Donald Trump is expected to attend. You know, just

Speaker 9 if you're thinking about people who are in the market for a peace prize at the moment.

Speaker 9 A statement released ahead of his joint appearance with Trump at the American Business Forum in Miami said, This is Janny, in an increasingly unsettled and divided world, it's fundamental to recognize the outstanding contribution of those who work hard to end conflicts and bring people together in a spirit of peace.

Speaker 9 He also said, Janny, as far as I understand, President Trump was elected in the United States of America and was quite clearly elected.

Speaker 9 When you're in such a great democracy as the United States, you should first of all respect the results of the election, which is interesting for a man who has stood unopposed to become President of FIFA in the last two votes, recommending somebody who supported an insurrection against a vote previously.

Speaker 9 You know, double thumbs up from Lars. I don't know, Barry, what there is to say about this peace prize.

Speaker 1 I think when Gianni Infantino succeeded Seth Blatter as leader of FIFA, I thought, oh, he's just that ball guy who used to conduct the Champions League draw.

Speaker 1 He can't possibly be worse than Seth Blatter.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I've got some things badly wrong on this podcast in the past, but that's right up there.

Speaker 1 That really is.

Speaker 1 He's a shameless, toadying sycophant.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 look, I don't know how he can sleep at night, but probably very well in a seven-star hotel room with goose-down pillows and you know, 10 million thread cotton sheets.

Speaker 1 So, good luck to him. Just an embarrassing man who brings shame upon the sport himself and the world regularly every time he opens his mouth and says or does anything.

Speaker 1 It is what it is.

Speaker 9 There's no way to speak about Barry.

Speaker 9 But it's, you know, I've read a column about this, just thinking,

Speaker 9 not necessarily, you know, it's obviously this world of bullshit where, you know, we say we want a peace prize, we'll give it to you, and that's fine. And maybe, maybe Donald Trump won't win it.

Speaker 1 I bet you 100 quid he will

Speaker 1 right here.

Speaker 9 But it is odd that, you know, when you think about what football is, you know, and it is just people running around kicking a ball, that it's got to a stage where, you know, it is

Speaker 9 giving away peace prizes. And, you know, Infantino's at the Gaza peace talks.
And I don't know how you reconcile that with just...

Speaker 1 But isn't it written into FIFA's statute book that they should not be involved in this kind of stuff? Like, that's

Speaker 1 a cornerstone of their very existence. I think the FIFA statues are entirely optional at this point.
They're more like guidelines.

Speaker 9 We finish with this from

Speaker 9 Josh App, who says, great podcast and all that. Just a minor nitpick.
The bench at Scarborough station is actually only the longest railway bench in the world.

Speaker 9 The longest bench in the world is located in Rendsburg in northern Germany on the banks of the Kiel Canal. And at 575.75 meters is more than four times as long.

Speaker 9 Thank you very much for that correction. And, you know, if anyone has any advances on long benches, we'll take them.

Speaker 9 But that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody.
Thank you, Lars. Thank you, Max.
Thanks, Mark.

Speaker 10 Thanks, Max.

Speaker 9 Thank you, Barry. Thank you.
From the Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.
We'll be back on Monday.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.

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