Episode 317: Sal Di Stefano: The Truth Behind Harmful Health Trends

Okay, this is what round four with one of my favorites.

Thank you.

It's so true.

Sal DiStefano,

of course, part of the Mind Pump crew that I'm very, very friendly with, close with.

And why I love you, as I'm sure I mean, I've told you thousands of times.

The most knowledgeable person, one of the most knowledgeable people I speak to when it comes to health and fitness, information.

You're so well,

not just well versed, but well detailed in everything I ask you.

So whenever I have you on, it just, it does so well because of like, you're a fountain of information.

Oh, thank you.

I appreciate that.

You know, people have asked me about the

information that I'll recite or whatever.

A lot of it has to do with this, Jen.

You know this because you're good at this too.

is it's not so much that I have all this information, it's that I've learned how to communicate it so that people get it because I trained people for decades.

decades i trained everyday people for two decades and what i had to get really good at was conveying information in a way that influenced their behaviors because otherwise it didn't matter otherwise i'm just google right if i just know information i'm just google what makes me different what what made me different was okay i learned through through the years talking about fat loss and muscle building and improving your health and your sleep and whatever.

I found ways of communicating it where I saw behaviors actually change and people adopt some of the things I talked about.

I said, okay, that works, that works, that works.

So it's literally two decades of whittling down, you know, some of the ways that I communicate.

And that's, that's what comes across.

So it's.

How do you stay?

You know, it's funny because at the end of the day, you're talking, like you said, about the same things over and over again: fat loss, how to gain muscle, how to burn fat, how do you know what I mean?

Like, what are the best techniques and all the other stuff?

How do you keep it fresh?

And after all of these years, now we're in 2024.

Has there been any new technique or any new piece of information that you've stumbled upon that actually has surprised you?

God, that's a good one.

You know what's interesting about the health and fitness space is that trends tend to cycle and they'll die and then they'll resurrect and die and they'll resurrect.

So I'll give you an example, right?

So

I don't know if you'll see these right now in infomercials, but you will soon because every five to 10 years they pop up.

They're like you put them on your abs and it makes your abs flex.

Just sit down and do a thousand thousand crunches or whatever, right?

Those STEM machines have been around forever.

And every so often they'll resurface and someone will sell a product or whatever.

So you see that a lot in our space, a lot of the old things being communicated again.

And now it sounds new because it's a new generation or new crop of people coming through.

So there's not a ton that comes out that shocks me,

especially when you consider human behavior and maybe evolution.

So I'll give you an example.

A study came out that showed that there really is no upper limit in terms of how much protein you can consume in a sitting that'll get utilized for repair and for building.

There was this belief that if you ate more than certain amount of grams of protein in one sitting, that

the excess protein just gets converted to energy.

So it's like, okay, don't eat more than let's say 50 grams of protein in a sitting because it's going to get essentially wasted.

So if you're going to have 150 grams of protein a day, you definitely want to space it out because if you have it all at once, your body's not going to utilize it for, you know, building muscle repair and all the stuff that people want protein to be used for, right?

Evolutionarily, it's made no sense to me.

When I heard this, I was like, you know, it doesn't make any sense because for most of human history, if you killed an animal, you weren't like, I got to stop eating and I'll eat the rest of it later.

It's like, you ate it because you didn't have refrigeration.

It would go bad.

So we killed an animal.

Let's eat it.

It was feast and famine, feast and famine.

Made no sense to me whatsoever.

Well, now we have study that came out to show that that's actually the case.

So you could eat 100 grams of protein in a sitting and it still gets utilized for repair and rebuilding.

It just takes much longer and it kind of trickles through the body.

The limit really with protein intake is what you can digest and what feels okay.

So of course the upper limit is what you feel comfortable eating, right?

So I could say 150 grams of protein at a sitting, but most people wouldn't feel very good if they ate that at a sitting.

So that should be the upper limit.

And that also communicates to human behavior.

So as a trainer,

there's all these studies that come out about what's the best for fat loss, what's the best for muscle building, what's the best diet, what's the best whatever.

As a trainer, I have to filter that through what people are going to do.

Like, I don't care what the study says.

If a study says you're going to increase fat oxidation by 17%

if you swim in a freezing cold lake at 3 a.m.

every day, I don't care because I don't have a single client that would do that.

There's not a single client that would take that information and be like, I'll take that 17%, wake up at 3 a.m.

and jump in a lake.

So I'm like, I don't care what that study says.

So I would always filter it through that anyway.

So when these people would say, or people in our space would say things like, you know, eat this way, work out this way.

I'd filter it through.

My clients aren't going to do that.

I could care less about the extra 3%, 4% because if they don't do it, it means nothing.

It means zero.

So not a lot has surprised us, I would say.

I've probably changed my mind on things

more so because I've observed so many individual variances with clients.

But at this point now, I think I've seen so many different variances that now I expect that there's always outliers.

I'll give you another example.

So for the most part, the data shows that eating an omnivore diet, one that contains both animal proteins or animal sources of food with plant sources of food like fruits and vegetables, it's probably best.

It's probably best to eat something that includes all of those things.

And then, you know, we can argue how much of each.

And again, individual variants plays a role.

The data also shows that eating a purely vegan diet for most people is not a good idea.

It just isn't.

For most people, that will result, or many people, that will result in some kind of nutrient deficiency that will require supplementation.

Sometimes even that doesn't seem to do well.

It's also hard to adhere to because

a regular omnivore diet requires some plan, especially in the context of the modern world.

You have to kind of plan your diet.

You can't just eat what you want.

Otherwise, you'll end up pretty unhealthy.

Well, you got to plan even more if you're just going to eat a vegan diet because now you have to really combine foods and you have to eat a plethora of different vegetables and fruits that now is possible because of modern grocery stores, but it does require even more planning.

So for the most part, it's like, unless you have this real strong moral imperative, you don't want to eat animals.

By the way, the data also shows if that's not you, you're going to fall off the diet anyway, like any other diet.

Then I typically tell people like, it's not a healthier diet.

The data doesn't support that whatsoever.

If they're both healthy, one that contains meat is better for most people.

Well, I used to think that was true for everybody.

Like, no, no, no, you got to have meat.

You got to have meat.

Well, I had this client that I trained, an anesthesiologist, very smart guy, super smart guy.

And he kept telling me, like, I don't know, man, you know, meat, I don't like eating meat, doesn't make me feel good.

And I was super like, no, there's certain nutrients that are much more readily absorbed through meat, and it's hard to get adequate protein from vegan sources unless you supplement with protein powder.

And we prefer whole foods.

And I'd make these arguments.

Well, anyway, he volunteered his time

every year to Doctors Without Borders.

So he would go somewhere and he would perform like, you know, his services for free.

And so he went, I don't remember where he went, but he went to this like far-off place and he lived in this village and he was providing anesthesia for children for certain types of, I think it was cleft palate.

I don't remember what it was.

It was a procedure that they needed.

And in this village, that's what they ate.

They ate a vegan diet.

He came back and he's like, I feel amazing.

And he kept telling me me this.

And I said, you know, shame on me because I've been confronted many times with a situation where somebody doesn't fit the mold.

So I said, okay, let's try a vegan diet.

Let's see how it goes.

And he was so much better.

And that's just one example of the individual variants constantly teaching me the lesson of when somebody asks me a question in regards to health and fitness, there are general rules.

But within those general rules, it's always, it depends.

The answer is always it depends.

It depends on the person.

It depends on what they're doing now, what they've done before, their stress level, their genetics, their gut health.

And people are so individual that,

you know, giving absolute answers, I mean, it almost always breaks down when you work with somebody.

So it's no absolute then.

So it's not that everybody should be eating animal protein.

But this is the problem with the vegan diet is that I feel you're not getting enough protein unless you plan it and make it a perfect situation.

So forget about animal protein.

How about just incorporating like fish and eggs?

Sure.

Right.

So it's not just full vegan.

Like you were saying, like, it sounds like it's something in the middle.

Like maybe it's more of not an absolute, but maybe not completely this way or completely that way.

Here's my problem with the vegan diet.

I don't, it's not the diet itself.

I don't have a problem with it, especially if it's if you're motivated by moral reasons.

Again, the data shows if you're morally vegan, your odds of sticking to it are pretty good.

If you're just going to go vegan because you think it'll improve your health, you're going to fail terribly, like any diet.

Okay.

Here's my problem currently with the vegan diet.

It has become extremely politicized.

It is no longer just about not hurting animals.

It is now if you eat animal sources of food, you're killing the environment and you're hurting everybody.

Now

you're immoral.

for eating animal sources on top of the fact that they lie and say it's healthier, which it's not, and all these other things.

Here's why I have a problem with that.

The vast majority of the typical American diet, and this is true in most Western nations, but especially in America, the vast majority of our diets heavily processed foods.

If you look at the average person's diet,

depending on the data that you look at, it's between 65 to 75 percent, something that's been heavily processed.

It comes in a wrapper or a box or whatever.

Of the remaining

35, 25 percent, That is whole foods, what are those foods that they eat that are whole foods?

Meat, eggs, and milk.

So what you're going to do by politicizing, heavily politicizing a diet and making people feel immoral and creating this societal pressure on people to not eat meat and whatever, what you're going to inevitably do is take a bunch of people who are not going to take the time to plan a perfect diet, whether it's omnivore, vegan, or anything else.

All you got to do is push them towards a more processed foods diet.

They're going to eliminate the only whole foods that they eat.

and they're going to consume more heavily processed foods.

And what we're going to see is far worse health.

Now, you want to make an argument for the planet, and we could go down that path.

And there's, I've seen great arguments and data on both sides.

But I'll tell you what's the worst possible thing for the planet.

Sick, unhealthy people.

Sick, unhealthy, unproductive, depressed, anxious people.

There's nothing worse.

People in that category consume differently.

They waste differently.

They don't innovate as much.

They're not as productive.

They're dependent on pharmaceuticals.

So if you want a dirty world that doesn't innovate and solve its problems, make everybody sick and unhealthy and depressed and anxious.

And that's what'll happen to a lot of people if they simply go vegan because they think it's the moral thing to do.

Or because of guilt.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, because of guilt.

Well, how about, let's talk about the milks of the world, right?

You know, dairy got such a horrible reputation, right?

I feel like the pendulum is now swinging a little bit back, a little bit, because what I'm confused about, and I want you to talk about this, of oat milk, almond milk, all the different kinds of milks that people refuse to drink dairy milk, but they'll drink all of these other

milk-ish things that have a hundred ingredients.

Yeah, they're processed as hell.

It's terrible for you versus just drinking like non-fat milk

or full-fat milk.

And the problem is it's confusion.

Like people don't know.

what to believe and who to believe.

Yeah.

Can we talk about the milk?

Which milk do you think is the best?

Okay, so

now

I'm going to paint the context.

Of all the foods that people have an intolerance to, an intolerance being if I consume this, I have a low-level or high-level immune reaction.

So it could either be full-on allergy or it could be bothers my stomach, causes inflammation.

So dairy's up there.

So there are a lot of people who just simply can't have dairy.

I'm one of them.

Dairy, just regardless, bothers me.

Now, if you're not in that category, okay.

If you can, if you can process dairy and it doesn't cause digestive issues or inflammatory issues for you, and you're perfectly fine.

And there's especially Northern Europeans are in there.

There's certain categories of Africans that can consume dairy, no problem, whatever.

If that's you, dairy, full-fat, raw, unpasteurized, unhomogenized dairy, is a superfood.

It is one of the most nutrient-dense superfoods on the planet.

And

I said raw, so raw meaning unpasteurized and non-homogenized because the pasteurization process destroys many of the beneficial bacteria that's in milk.

So a lot of people don't know this.

And

let me go in the history first of why we pasteurize milk in the first place.

A long time ago,

I want to say in the 1800s here in the U.S.,

farmers were cramming cows into industrial areas.

They were feeding them something called brewer's mash, which was the leftovers of breweries.

And the cows were just sick.

They were sick.

They were infected.

and the milk even, in fact, oftentimes came out with a blue tint.

Okay.

And so kids, many kids got sick off of drinking like diseased milk.

Louis Pasteur had invented this process of, you know, eliminating bacteria in foods and they applied it to milk.

If you cook the shit out of it, it's got nothing in it.

So now we could sell milk from sick cows.

This became law.

And this became now everybody's like pasteurized milk.

If you drink milk from a a healthy cow, it's not going to make you sick.

It doesn't have bad bacteria or whatever.

A healthy cow produces milk that is perfectly, not just perfectly fine to drink, but better for you.

And there's lots of data on this.

For example, you can't feed, if you feed a calf pasteurized milk, they'll fail to thrive.

Okay.

So this is a calf needs to drink raw milk.

Raw milk has, like I said, beneficial bacteria.

If you leave raw milk out, It doesn't go sour like traditional milk or like pasteurized milk.

It turns into buttercream because the good bacteria in there balance out whatever bad bacteria and it doesn't go sour.

It contains more of the lactase enzyme that breaks down the lactose.

Some people who are mildly lactose intolerant can drink raw milk and be perfectly fine.

And then the homogenation process, what they do is they pressurize milk through filters with tiny, tiny holes that crush the fat and produce small, such small globules of fat that they say suspended in the milk.

So you don't have to shake it, right?

So if you have raw milk and you leave leave it, the cream will separate and then you have to shake it.

So homogenization means that they've put it through a process, you don't have to shake it.

The cream doesn't separate.

But wait a minute.

So I don't, how readily available is raw unpasteurized milk?

If you're not living in LA or somewhere, that's a big it's you can find it from a farm, you know, sprouts or whole foods will sell it, but it's illegal to sell across state lines.

Oh, it is?

Oh, there's crazy laws against raw milk.

In fact, you could find videos online of the FDA breaking, like crashing down the doors of raw milk dairies, like they're breaking into like a meth lab.

I mean, guns drawn, everything.

It's wild how they treat it, how they treat it.

It's crazy.

But nonetheless, and again, if you look at the data on raw milk from these good farms, your odds of getting sick from it are far lower than you get sick from like eating lettuce or anything else that we consume all the time.

So it's it's not only is it perfectly healthy, but raw, unpasteurized, uh, non-homogenized milk, if you can tolerate it, is an incredible superfood.

People will say, milk gives me acne.

Try raw, non-homogenized milk, and you'll see acne will probably start to clear away.

Or I have a mild intolerance.

Try raw milk.

I'll probably be able to digest it at all.

Like my kids,

when they stop breastfeeding and then we give them milk, it's raw milk.

In fact, my daughter, when I give her normal pasteurized milk, if we travel and we can't find it, she starts to get a little eczema.

Really?

I give her the raw milk and it goes away.

Yeah.

So then of all these nut milks, right?

The almond milks, oat, the oat milk just gives me, I laugh.

It's like the worst of them all.

And that's become like the biggest trend to be like, it's like dishwater.

Worse.

I mean, people don't want to eat carbs, but they'll have like oat milk, right?

Like it's crazy to me.

So let's go over some of these crazy trends.

Like, so we're in agreement that that is like a total farce.

Yes.

What about collagen, like consuming collagen?

Collagen protein.

So

you can rank proteins.

There's a few different ways that proteins get ranked.

I like bioavailability.

That score, there's a, what's called a bioavailable score, which kind of tells you

in a nutshell, how effective that protein is on a gram per gram basis for the things that we want protein to do, rebuild, repair, recover, you know, those types of things.

So

like whey protein is very high, egg protein is very high.

And there's a few things that they factor into that, including essential amino acid content.

So proteins are chains of amino acids.

The essential amino acids are the ones that you need to consume.

They're essential because your body can't produce them.

Okay.

High amounts of essential amino acids makes a protein more valuable on a gram per gram basis.

So not all proteins are created equal.

So whey protein, it's got a better score than collagen protein, right?

You know, egg protein is better than soy, for example.

However,

However, and here's where it gets, this is where I tell people it doesn't matter.

If your protein intake is high enough, none of that matters.

So, if you're consuming what we would recommend, which is about a gram of protein per pound of target body weight, so think of what you want to weigh if you want to lose weight or how much you weigh now if you're lean.

So, let's say you weigh 130 pounds, 130 grams of protein a day.

It doesn't matter where it comes from.

You're already consuming so many amino acids that it doesn't matter if it's collagen, whey, egg, soy, pumpkin seed.

It really, it really doesn't matter.

Now, here are the benefits of collagen that I like.

Aside from that, it's probably the easiest protein to digest for most people.

So for a lot of people,

if they take protein powders,

they find that if they take too much, it gives them digestive distress or gas or they don't feel good.

Collagen seems to be very, very well tolerated across the board.

For example, I could consume, I could have a shake with 80 grams of collagen protein and be

like water, like it feels like nothing.

If I do that with other proteins, not necessarily, I have to limit limit it to like 40 or 50 grams.

I feel like people, as you get older in their 40s, 30s, whatever, 40s, 50s,

it's like an automatic to add collagen because of your joints.

Well, if your protein intake isn't where I said.

That's when you do it.

Then if you add collagen, you notice all the benefits that they talk about.

So if your protein intake,

yeah, what if you have a good protein?

Right.

If you have a high protein intake, it doesn't matter.

You're getting all those amino acids that rebuild collagen and skin and all that stuff.

If If you're, let's say you're 130-pound female and you just, by the way, most people won't do this because it's actually quite hard to get, it's hard to get your body weight in grams of protein.

People think, oh, I can do that.

No, no, no.

Try doing it from Whole Foods and it's so, it's so satiety producing that you'll be like, man, I can't eat this much because protein really crushes appetite.

It's one of the benefits.

It's the only thing that satiates me, actually.

It's the most satiety producing macronutrient.

But let's say you don't.

Let's say you're 130-pound female and you hit 60 grams of protein a day, which I'd say the average 130-pound female probably eats 40 to 60 grams.

You add a scoop of 20 grams or 15 grams of collagen protein.

Yeah, you'll notice improvements in your hair, skin, nails, and joints, and even gut health because of all the connective tissue there.

What do you think?

Okay, I'm going to keep on going with these.

I wouldn't say

I would say trends.

I was going to say not myths, but trends.

Shakes.

I mean, again, another thing, everyone's just drinking shakes like they're like going out of business.

The truth is, I would think that shakes are a lot of calories.

It's

a lot of carbs, a lot of sugar, and people think they're doing their body good by drinking all their calories.

What is your take on just shakes?

Whole natural foods is always at the top of the eating versus drinking everything.

Now,

by the way, there's more to this than just what we're saying or what I think people think we're implying.

So, first off, most shakes are,

so I talked about processed processed foods.

People don't realize this, but a protein powder is heavily processed food.

A protein bar is heavily processed food.

Like I've never seen a protein powder tree or whatever, right?

I've never seen.

You haven't?

No, right?

Protein bars don't grow on, you know, on trees or out of the ground.

Those are also heavily processed.

So

all of the negatives associated with heavily processed food also apply to the quote-unquote healthy heavily processed foods, meaning that they're going to stimulate appetite more.

They're not going to to be as satiety producing.

I mean, look, take all the protein bars on the market or all the health food bars on the market.

The top-selling ones are

the best tasting, not the healthiest.

That's just across the board.

Because by the way, if it doesn't taste good, you're not eating it or drinking it.

That's right.

But at least with the bar, you can control what you're taking in, your calorie intake.

You know how much protein, you know how carbs are.

It's better than a Snickers.

Yeah.

Well, what I was going to say is actually, my question is, is it better than having a shake?

Because these shakes are so full of so many calories that people are not taking into account.

Like people are having shakes that are a thousand calories, adding in their peanut butter, adding in this thing, that thing.

If you're tracking everything, then I guess it doesn't matter.

But that's an interesting question.

I would say

with bars, there's more binders and fillers.

That's a tough one because then you also get to chew it.

So here's, there's a process that happens when you eat food versus drink it.

So let's say I had a steak in front of me.

And then let's say I blended the steak, okay?

Which would be gross.

But let's just say I have a blender with blended steak and I have an actual steak.

My body, it's not the same thing.

People think, oh, it's the same thing.

It's a steak.

You just drink it versus eating it.

No, no, no.

There's still a difference.

The chewing process, that whole process, it stimulates digestive enzymes.

It changes how my body responds.

The surface area of the food means I'm going to absorb it differently, slower, probably not gonna have as strong of a potential insulin spike.

So eating food is different than drinking food, even if it's exactly the same across the board.

The very act of chewing something changes how that food is assimilated in the body and how you perceive it and how your body may even react.

Well, one's so much more satiating.

That's right.

Like, because you're chewing it, like you were saying.

But, like, the whole thing about a banana, right?

If you eat a banana versus blending it up, what?

Yeah, they're saying that the glycemic index spikes much higher.

Yep, yep.

It's about surface area.

You know, I remember remember in, I wasn't a huge student in school.

It's shocking because you can like retell a fact like nobody.

I love learning, but school is not made for people who love learning.

I'm going to say that right now.

It was made for people who like to sit and just whatever.

100%.

I wanted to pull my hair out when I was in school.

It was torture.

But anyway, torture.

I remember a few lessons because every once in a while it would pique my interest.

I remember learning about surface area.

So like if you have a big circle, the surface area to the total mass, there's a ratio.

And then the smaller the circle gets, the more that the surf, the ratio of the surface area to the total mass changes.

And so when you break things down into smaller, smaller bits, it gets absorbed much faster in the body.

That's why the glycemic index of a whipped up banana in a blender is going to be higher than chewing it.

Because when you chew it, you're not whipping it up into tiny, tiny, tiny little bits like a blender.

So the more you emulsify something, the faster the response in the body.

That's why a blended banana is not the same as one that you eat.

So then what would you, okay, so if you were like, what would you pick?

A smoothie that has a banana and it has

protein, yeah, collagen and a fat, okay, versus

a steak and a potato.

Oh, come on.

Yeah.

The meal.

Right.

I mean, the benefit to the shake is convenience.

But besides the convenience, people, but do you, do you agree with me that people think that they're doing their body good?

Like they think that they're actually being healthier.

Yep.

And so, in the morning, okay, this is another one, another trend, or this is actually not a trend.

This is actually a piece of information that I abide by, but I want to know if I'm off base here.

Is it better to have a protein and a fat in the morning versus a carbon approach?

Yeah, there's not even a debate on that.

If you eat protein in the morning,

your blood sugar levels, your insulin sensitivity, your blood glucose for the rest of the day is is better if you start off with protein.

So let's say same calories, same macros, identical diet, except a carb meal is in the morning on one day, and then the other one is a protein meal.

So you just switch out the meals.

Otherwise, everything else is identical.

Blood sugar is going to be better controlled by starting off the day with protein.

Now, someone might be like, well, why is that important?

You know, who cares, right?

Same calories, you'll gain the same fat or not.

Here's why blood sugar is important.

And I know there's a lot of debates like insulin sensitivity, mitochondrial health.

I don't need to go down and break down.

This is where the science nerds in the health and fitness space lose people because they start to argue the minutiae and the mitochondrial.

And what the average person is like, whatever.

They don't understand it.

They also.

Who cares?

I like that stuff.

I think it's cool.

But here's the important thing.

The reason why you don't want high spikes in blood sugar and drops in blood sugar, because that affects your behaviors.

It affects how you feel.

Highs and lows mean you're going to feel anxious and fatigued, irritable and hungry, cravings and not hungry.

So why do you want to control your blood sugar?

Besides all the other stuff that they like to talk about, the main thing is it affects how you feel.

Do you want to feel good or do you want to feel crappy?

Do you want to have crazy cravings all day long or do you want to feel like you're kind of in control?

So start your day off with a protein.

In fact, you're starting to see psychologists now start to recommend that their anxious patients start their day off with a high protein meal.

That's now starting to become a prescription.

And they they say, oh, oh, you have lots of anxiety, whatever.

And there's other stuff they look at, of course, but they'll say, start your day off with, you know, 30 grams of protein.

And then you'll see people report back and be like, well, my anxiety's so much better.

Right.

Yeah, they were feeling anxiety from the blood sugar spikes.

Well, what about the fat?

Do you believe in the idea that you should be eating your protein and fat or your breakfast 30 minutes upon waking?

Or what do you believe in that?

Splitting hairs.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah, I think you're splitting hairs with something like that.

Because I know what most people's mornings look like.

So you know what?

You know what I would, okay?

Let's say somebody makes the argument that you should wake up and not eat for an hour.

So they're like, okay, here's the science.

The data shows you wake up and don't eat anything for an entire hour.

But let's say you're the average person.

So like 90 something percent of the people watching this, they're going to be like.

God, I wake up and then I got to get the kids ready and I got to get ready for work and this is going on.

And then maybe let's say they got sold by the person I'm talking to the podcast.

They're like, you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to get my alarm and I'm going to wake up an hour early.

Well, now what you've done is you've just taken away an hour of sleep, which is far more important for their health than waiting an hour to eat their meal.

So it's like,

one of the problems that people face with their health and fitness isn't the, that they're necessarily doing the wrong things.

It's that they put things in the wrong priority.

So it's like, wake up an hour early so I don't eat for an hour is lower on the priority list than getting that extra hour of sleep.

So don't trade dimes, you know, don't trade quarters for dimes.

You know, in advertising, they say trade dimes for quarters, right?

Spend 10 cents, get 25 cents back.

People are doing this with their health and fitness.

They're giving 25 cents, getting 10 cents back.

Yay, I woke up an hour early, so I don't have to eat for an hour, but yeah, now you only got six hours of sleep, which is far worse for you.

It's totally true, but there's so like that's the problem what's happening, though.

People are very confused and they hear different people saying different things, and then they try, they're not sticking to one thing, they're trying everything and like they're getting no results, right?

Yes, start.

This is how you should, you should whittle it down.

Will I do it?

That's number one.

Because if you won't do it, I don't care how effective it is.

It's nothing.

There's no effectiveness if you don't do it.

So will I do it?

And you have to ask yourself honestly, like, will I always do it?

Or only when I'm motivated or whatever.

So will I always do it?

Number one.

Number two,

what's the commitment of this?

And is the commitment realistic for me?

And then that's it.

Those are the two big things.

And then three, it's like, okay, effectiveness.

Like what within that cat, within that context, what can I do that's most effective within that context?

So, you know, if somebody says to me, what's the most effective form of exercise?

I'll typically say, well, what forms of exercise do you enjoy doing the most?

Let's start there.

And if they say, well, I don't care, then okay, I can give you a different answer.

But if they say, oh man, I love.

I love riding my bike.

Like, it's my favorite thing to do.

Like, I get so much joy from it.

Okay, well, let's talk about how to make that as effective as possible for you because that's what you're going to do.

Yeah, that's what you're going to do.

Exactly.

But I believe that like everything always shifts, like the pendulum always goes the other way.

Even with like fasting, intermittent fasting, right?

Like everyone was like, that's the best thing to do.

It's the best thing in the world.

And I was never a person that liked it.

And so I knew it wasn't going to be for me.

And then people would make, like, would basically shame me into the idea that I was eating breakfast and I was eating dinner.

Yeah.

Right.

And so.

Can you tell us, what is your thought on intermittent fasting and who is good for it and who is not good for it?

Fasting is the oldest, it's the oldest diet known to man.

Okay.

It was never intended.

And the reason why, okay, so things that have lasted a long time have passed the test of evolution in the sense of ideas, right?

So ideas that humans have had that have stuck around for thousands of years typically means there's some value there.

So like, why have cultures done this thing for thousands of years?

Why is it common among multiple cultures?

There's got to be value there.

Fasting is present in every major world religion, both Eastern and Western.

Okay.

It was never to lose weight.

It was detachment.

It was always a way to detach from worldly things.

You know, most

world religions will tell you that worshiping worldly things is a path to hell, right?

It's like in the in the Christian Bible, it's, you know, idolatry, right?

You know, or, you know, or the Judeo-Christian religions don't have any other God before me.

It's literally if you do not worship worldly things because they will lead you down a dark path.

Yeah.

Typically, it's money, power, pleasure, or fame, what they used to call honor.

But detachment is very powerful, right?

Do you get value from spiritual value from not eating for three days?

Yeah, absolutely.

Especially if you grow up like

we live now where food is everywhere.

You've never felt hungry before.

You think you feel hungry, but no, that's cravings.

You've never been without.

You've never like, there's spiritual value in that.

Okay.

The problem is people take that and they say, oh, wow, I lost weight because I didn't eat for three days.

Here's how I'm going to market it.

And so then it became a diet.

By the way, we used to call that starving yourself

when I was a trainer in the 90s.

I still call it that, by the way.

So, so, okay.

So, why do people lose weight on it and find a lot of value?

Because they're eating less.

Bottom line.

That's it.

Because they're eating less.

I mean, if you look at all the autophagy benefits and all the whatever benefits that they'll highlight, we have studies now comparing a calorie-restricted diet to fasting and we find that the results are identical.

There aren't cases where fasting may be beneficial for people with really severe gut issues where they need to reduce inflammation, give their gut a break.

These people work with a functional medicine practitioner.

It's very specific.

But otherwise, if you're fasting for weight loss, that is a terrible way to lose weight.

Because here's what you're encouraging with fasting.

If you're doing it for weight loss, if you're doing it for spiritual purposes, it's great.

It's stood the test of time.

If you're doing it for fat loss, it's terrible because what you're encouraging is a binge-restrict behavior with yourself.

What you're encouraging is a restrict, restrict, restrict eating window, binge.

Anybody who's fasted for long enough will tell you that this starts to happen.

This is not a healthy behavior.

You don't want to eat in this way where you have to fit all your calories in this window and then I'm so hungry, but oh, I got to wait till five o'clock type of deal.

Not good.

Also,

there's also the stress that it can place on the body.

Women seem to be more sensitive to this than men.

Men seem to be more resistant to the stress of fasting than women, probably due to evolutionary reasons, maybe because women bear children.

But what you'll find with people who chronically fast is cortisol levels that don't look very good.

Estrogen progesterone levels start to go a little out of whack, and they'll start to display signs of, even when their calories are adequate, they'll start to display signs of too much stress, hair loss,

you know, hot, cold intolerance, you know, that kind of stuff.

Fasting does,

if you go for X amount of, I don't remember what the hours are, eight hours or so, you start to see increased production of catecholamines, epinephrine, norepinephrine.

This is why people initially get addicted and they feel good.

They're like, oh my God, I have all this energy.

What's happening is your body's spiking up

these catecholamines to get you more motivated to find food.

So like if you're in nature and you go without food, your body spikes up like, all right, give this person some energy.

We got to find some food.

But people get addicted to this high.

But too many catecholamines, norepinephrine, epinephrine, you know, cortisol.

Cortisol even feels good.

High cortisol feels good.

Cortisol is an energy producing hormone.

That's why it's high in the morning and it starts to taper off at night.

In fact, there's an argument to be said that there are people who are, you could refer to as cortisol junkies,

where their stress levels have made their cortisol so high that they've become resistant that they actually seek out stressful stressful situations to produce that feeling.

So these people are like, they're typically a type A, but they'll get addicted to like high intensity exercise.

They tend to be late all the time.

They tend to be in stressful conversations all the time because without realizing it, they're causing spikes in cortisol that start to make them feel better.

Over time, though, this causes you to crash.

It's like being a drug addict.

Oh, yeah.

It's not good.

It's not good at all.

But I can pick out cortisol addicts now pretty easily when I meet people.

But also, it's not for all why also cold plunges, right?

Because all the same things happen when you take a, when you do a cold plunge.

Cold plunge.

Also, if you're, if you're on the level of too much stress,

a lot of things go into the stress bucket.

Exercise is one of them.

You know, if you're in a calorie deficit, that'll go into one of them.

Of course, conversations with people, lifestyle, lack of sleep, all goes into this stress bucket.

And if you have too much stress, adding more stress is just terrible.

It doesn't matter if you think it's a good stress, like workout or cold plunge or fasting.

So then you'll get these people who, you know, are overstressed already and they're working out and then they try fasting.

And at first they feel good, but then they start to overstress their bodies and then they start to get hormone imbalances, don't know what the hell's going on.

They go to a functional medicine practitioner and they're like, you are in, you know, stage four adrenal fatigue, what they used to call it, or HPA axis dysfunction.

And the first thing they'll do is they'll tell them, eat breakfast.

Like stop fasting, not good for you.

So when we've done several episodes on why you should not fast for for weight loss, it's a absolute terrible approach.

And we always get some pushback less now than we used to because I think a lot of people have done it long enough to be like, Oh, yeah, this isn't great.

So, yeah.

And I think that, like, everything always has like a bat, like, it always

swings the other way.

So, do you think that the ice, like the cold plunge is more hype

than

real, even though, like I said, it does have some benefits?

Yeah.

If we took

sleep, diet, activity,

and lifestyle, which would include like interpersonal relationships and stuff like that.

So if we take those things, those four things,

those make up, I don't know, 98%

of what is going to contribute to health, longevity, energy, all that stuff.

The 2%,

you can put other stuff in the category like cold plunge, red light therapy, sauna, supplements, and stuff like that.

That's how little of an impact it makes in comparison to those other things.

Now, why am I saying that?

Because you're getting a lot of people who have crappy sleep, aren't eating well, whatever, and they're like, I'm going to go get a cold plunge.

That's going to solve a lot of my issues.

Or I'm, now, if it leads to better behaviors, so sometimes there's this effect.

So

this is the other thing too.

Sometimes people make that step and then that step leads to better.

other behaviors.

So someone will be like, oh, you know, they have a bad diet, they don't actually, but they get a cold plunge.

But because they took that first step of cold plunging, now they start to work out and they start to, in that case, it's right.

It basically could be like impetus.

Yeah, an impetus or a catalyst to be doing all the other things right.

Correct.

But, okay.

But it can be a cold plunge can be the wrong application.

If you're borderline on the edge of too much stress, I do not think a cold plunge is a good idea.

You're just going to cortisol yourself to death by doing it.

You should do things that are relaxing, not shocking to the body.

Like sauna.

Even a sauna can be too much.

And that can be too too much.

Even a sauna can be, you should do things like meditate, mindfulness, prayer, you know, maybe get better sleep, you know, place more focus on the quality of your sleep.

A cold plunge is very valuable for people who have things kind of already in balance and they can handle a little bit more stress.

Then there's some really good immune system.

boosting effects.

It's very valuable for athletes who are constantly teetering on the edge of overtraining and they want to practice more, but they just can't recover enough.

A cold plunge can kind of help give them another 3%, 4% so they can go and do more training.

But yeah, it's definitely been overhyped in that sense.

Isn't it crazy how popular it's become, this whole hot cold therapy?

Yeah.

Where like there's now like tons of

studios popping up with cold plunges, like Starbucks.

Most people would benefit from simply

exposing themselves to the elements a little bit more.

So, you know, I want to, I do also want to say this and,

you know,

I want to give credit to this, right?

Our body's ability to acclimate to temperature changes is a muscle that is atrophied in us, okay, because we're constantly in temperature-controlled environments.

So there's definitely value in allowing that muscle to be exercised.

So if you've ever lived in a very hot environment or a very cold environment, you know how you can kind of get used to it.

Like if you've ever, so I years ago, I had a

stake of an ownership in a gym in Palm Springs, right?

In the summer, it gets hot as hell there.

120 degrees.

Okay.

I lived there for long enough to where when I came back up here to San Jose, it'd be like 90 degrees and I wouldn't feel that hot because I got used to the 100 degrees.

I haven't been acclimated.

It is, right?

Then

I'd have

friends of mine that came from like Minnesota or Chicago.

They'd come over here.

It'd be 50 degrees outside and they'd be in shorts and t-shirts.

And I'd be like, what are you doing?

It's freezing.

Like, this is beautiful.

The sun's out or whatever.

So your body learns how to acclimate.

That's a muscle that I think is important

to strengthen, but it's not,

it's under,

let's get some activity, let's eat right, let's get good sleep, let's have good relationships with people.

You know,

that's the order of priority with those kinds of things.

Now, that being said,

if you're doing everything right and you add cold plunge and sauna, there's definite health benefits and there's data, especially, especially heat.

There's vasodilating effects and cardiovascular benefits from,

you know, from using things like a sauna that are pretty, pretty awesome.

There's also a detoxifying, I hate to use the word detox, but if let's say you have heavy metal or mold toxicity, you know, sweating is one way to get it out.

So it just kind of helps accelerate the process.

Is sweating a myth in the sense that like I think psychologically, that's why I do cardio.

I like to, I like cardio because I feel like it makes me sweat.

So therefore, I'm burning calories, I'm exercising.

And I mean, even though I know,

you know, theoretically and just my knowledge base is that you don't have to be sweating.

That's what I think.

Why is it so connected?

Is there any truth to the idea that sweating more burns more calories, helps you lose weight?

No.

Not that, but are there benefits to sweating?

Yeah, your body's getting,

one way your body detoxify, can detoxify is through the sweating process.

About weight loss.

I know there's a ton of benefits to sweating, but is there a correlation between sweating?

It's hard to separate.

And cal A.

Here's why it's hard to separate.

Fat loss.

Weight loss.

Can improving your health help you with fat loss?

Yes.

So if sweating more through activity or heat is improving your health, then it probably will help.

I don't think it's going to be like this huge dramatic effect though, where you're like, oh my God, because I sweat more now, I'm burning.

you know, I've lost three more pounds of body fat.

The weight loss typically on a scale is water.

It is water.

But I do think, I don't think, I know

there's plenty of data to show that sweating is,

there's some benefit.

And functional medicine practitioners will often advise people to do things that induce sweating when they have,

when they need to get rid of things like mold or

heavy metals.

And that's, by the way, it's in combination with other things.

They don't just do that.

They'll do things like they'll have them eat.

things like chelate or you know things like spirulina and and chlorella to help bind yeah and pull it out yes okay this is what what I wanted to this is something that I think I want to ask you about like I'm asking for a friend yes yeah

okay

so let's talk about this whole cardio

weights conundrum here right

so Cardio, right?

The interesting thing is like the harder you push on cardio, the hungrier you get.

And therefore you eat more, therefore not able to get that calorie deficit plus breaking down your muscle, okay?

Versus the strength training.

Like, how do you delicately balance doing cardio and not getting famished and starving to the point where you're eating 10 times the amount of calories?

So here's what's interesting.

Okay.

So again, I'm going to, you know, a little caveat here, right?

If you love cardio and that's the way you work out and you get lots of value from it, it's healthy and you do it right, right?

You don't overdo it or whatever.

It's good for you.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Same thing with strength train.

But let's just say the person's like they don't care.

Okay.

So what's the difference?

But what if they do care?

It's more for the person who's like trying to get away from cardio.

Yeah.

Move more into strength.

So here's why cardio does that.

When you're burning calories manually, your body aggressively tries to figure out how to balance out the your caloric output with your caloric intake or your caloric intake with your output aggressively.

So if you burn X amount of calories doing cardio, it will bump your appetite up to try to drive you to eat more.

It'll reduce activity outside of the cardio.

So they've actually done studies where they put trackers on people.

They work out hard in the morning.

They move less during the day,

like without even realizing it.

So it'll try to balance it out that way.

It'll also pare muscle down to reduce your calorie outputs, to try and make you more efficient.

So this is why weight loss in studies with cardio and calorie restriction results in about 40% of the weight being from muscle.

So you lose 10 pounds, like four pounds come from muscle.

And it's not burning muscle down.

You said breakdown.

That's not necessarily what's happening.

It's more of an adaptation process.

Your body's just trying to become more efficient with calories.

So that's what cardio does.

Now, why?

Cardio, you need endurance and stamina.

And while you do it, you do burn a lot of calories.

You burn more calories in an hour of cardio than any other form of exercise.

So you need lots of endurance and stamina.

You don't need a lot of strength.

You're burning a lot of calories while you do it.

Oh, let's get rid of muscle.

We don't need a lot of strength.

We just need stamina.

And since we're burning so many calories, let's reduce the amount of calories we burn while we do it so that we can become more efficient cardio machines.

So that's what ends up happening.

Now strength training is different.

Strength training doesn't burn a ton of calories while you do it.

It's actually one of the lowest calorie burning forms of exercise in a per hour.

I'm talking about traditional strength training,

not the baloney strength training, quote unquote, where you're just cardio with weights, but like a real strength training.

You do a set of eight reps, you rest for two or three minutes, then you do another one.

You don't burn a lot of calories.

But what you are doing is you're sending a very strong signal to the body, especially if you pair it with proper nutrition, that says we need strength.

The primary adaptation that we want right now, because the danger being posed upon us is requiring strength.

And we're not burning a lot of calories.

So let's add muscle.

It's okay if we add some muscle.

We can bump our metallicity because then you're also feeding yourself.

So it's like, look, we got plenty of food.

We need strength.

Add muscle.

So your body will build more muscle.

And so

those are the two signals that are happening.

Both of them can increase your appetite.

I find, in my opinion,

in my, this is my anecdote, cardio creates more of the initial, the strong,

acute cravings, whereas strength training can generally cause an increase in appetite from a boost of metabolism.

So what you'll find with cardio is, I did a really intense cardio session this morning.

Oh my God, by lunchtime or dinner, I'm like craving.

Like I am starving.

Strength training doesn't seem to cause that acute rise in appetite, but more of a slow rise in appetite that's coming from fueling this new added tissue.

By the way, there was a study that was done, Jen, that you would,

I don't know if you, if you saw this, but they compared strength training to cardio to strength training plus cardio

to look at fat loss.

These were diabetic individuals, but they were looking at fat loss.

Strength training outperformed the other ones.

They even outperformed a little bit, slightly, even outperformed strength training plus cardio, but it definitely outperformed cardio for fat loss, for pure fat loss.

Oh, I believe it.

It's just hard to get your brain to that place.

That's the problem.

Do you have any tips of how we can slowly adjust our brain to that?

Because I think so many girls are like stuck in that cardio loop.

Yes.

I'll tell you the number one thing right now.

The biggest enemy for women and girls when it comes to exercising and eating right in a way to burn pure body fat and to sculpt their body and boost their metabolism with some muscle building is the scale.

Take your scale and throw it away.

It lies to you.

And here's your evidence.

If you weigh, if you feel good and you're like, man, I feel good.

And you get on the scale and you gain a pound or two and it changes your mood, get rid of the scale.

All the scale is weighing is mass.

It's not telling you muscle.

It's not telling you fat.

It's not telling you bone.

I mean, if you cut your leg off, Jen, and get on the scale, you lost weight.

So the scale ruins everything because here's what will happen.

a girl you know 20 year old girl will will start they'll listen to my podcast like okay i'm gonna do what he says i'm gonna lift weights i'm gonna eat high protein and i'm gonna do this and then they'll get on the scale and be like i gained a pound oh my god reverse start running starve myself right not realizing that they may have gained three pounds of muscle and lost two pounds of fat I know.

So they went up a pound on the scale, but they're smaller because muscle is dense.

It takes up three quarters of the space of roughly of body fat.

They look better.

Their metabolism is faster, but the damn scale told them they gained a pound on the scale.

Oh my God.

Like take your scale, throw it out.

Here's what you should measure.

Circumference is fine, but make sure you use multiple circumference measurements, not just one.

Circumference is okay.

I like body fat testing.

I don't like bioelectric impedance, the ones where you just put your hands on or your feet.

It's notoriously all over the place.

I like calipers or underwater weighing or Dexascan.

So use that.

Strength.

Am I stronger in the gym?

If your strength is going up, my metabolism, think about it this way.

If my strength is going up, my metabolism is going up.

They're strongly connected.

Strength goes up, metabolism is also probably going up.

So strength, body fat test, look at your libido, your energy, your mood.

And then that's it.

And if you want to weigh yourself, only weigh yourself after you get your body fat percentage test.

So you can see how much muscle you gain and how much fat you lost.

But if you just use a scale, it'll mess with your head.

And it does this so terribly to girls, it's unbelievable.

I would see this with my clients: like,

even after the body fat test, I test their body fat.

Oh, my God, you went down, you know, 3% body fat.

They get on the scale.

The scale hasn't moved though.

Oh,

I'm like, oh my God.

It's such a, it's such a mind fuck.

Totally.

Do you know what's interesting?

I saw a study actually that talked about the differences between

working out weight training five times a week versus twice a week.

Did you see this done?

No, I didn't.

Versus three times a week.

And what it said was the amount that there was a major difference between working out once to three times a week, but so nominal

between three and four.

I could have guessed that.

Really?

Strength training, one of the

values of it, the selling points that I love so much.

It's so well suited for the modern world, Jen.

It is literally the best form of exercise for the modern world.

And that's one of the reasons why it requires so little to get so much.

And people, they're not like, look, I'm a fitness fanatic.

I'm always, I'm going to go to the Jinx.

I love it.

If I could be there every day because

it's good for my mental health, I just enjoy it.

I enjoy the journey.

I don't care if it's not more effective.

I'm going to be there anyway type of deal.

Most people are like,

I'm not a fitness fan.

I don't want to become a fan.

I don't want to go.

I don't want to host host a fitness podcast.

Like, what's wonderful about it is very little

is required to get big results.

Most people would get all the results they wanted with well-programmed workouts twice a week.

And I don't mean super intense.

People tend to think, oh, if I only work out twice, I need to beat the crap out of myself.

No, effective does not mean that.

It needs to be appropriate.

So little is required because all it is, remember the value of other forms of exercise, like cardio, for example, the value of it, there's some of it is in the adaptation, which if you're looking for endurance, that's what you get with cardio.

But the other value people think they get from it or that they want from it is the calorie burn, but you have to do it to get it.

Strength training, the value comes from the adaptation.

I send the signal and then adapt.

That's where I get the value from the strength training.

And I don't need to do a ton of it to make that happen.

In fact,

the data shows that to prevent muscle loss.

So you're not going to build muscle doing this, but to prevent muscle loss, because if you look at the average person, I don't remember what the percentage is, but after 35, you start to lose X amount percent of muscle mass every decade.

To simply prevent muscle loss, it's like one workout every two weeks.

That's it?

That's how effective strength training is when it comes to preventing muscle loss.

That's right.

Not much at all.

So if I can get this message out to people and be like, look,

just walk every day.

Walk a couple times a day for 10 or 15 minutes.

and try to eat, you know, in a way that is healthy for yourself, that where you're feeding yourself because you care about yourself.

And just go do some strength training once a week or twice a week.

And you're good.

You're going to be 85 or 90% of the way there.

Now, if you get all fanatical about it, then yeah, you can go way more, but not necessary.

So in those two times that people should work out, or three, let's say if they go crazy, how long should each session be?

And should it be a full body?

Should you split it?

Full body.

Full body is better.

for a lot of different reasons than a body part split.

One of the main reasons why a full body is better is if you're working out twice a week and you miss a workout, you you still hit your whole body.

If I go upper or lower,

you know, women tend to miss the upper body, men tend to miss the lower body or whatever.

Or if you do a larger split, there's always that body part that you tend to, you know, oh, that's the day I skip.

And oh, I never missed this day or whatever.

So go full body because you want to create balance.

Strength training is very targeted in the sense that what you train is what you develop.

There's a systemic effect, but you know, if I just work out my legs, most of the gains are going to go to my legs.

So you don't want to create muscle imbalances.

You want to have a balanced, healthy body.

So full body for that reason.

Also, the frequency of practice and training of body parts seems to be better, especially for beginners and intermediate, but that's not a huge effect, but I think that's worth talking about.

But full body, literally, if the average person went to the gym and practiced three to five exercises, okay,

when they went in, they'd be fine.

And I say practice because...

And I've said this on your podcast, I think, two other times before.

Treat the exercises like skills, not like a way just to get sweaty.

So like, think of it like you want to learn how to play basketball.

Let's say you're serious about playing basketball.

Like I want to get good at it.

So I tell you, okay, I want you to do 100 free throws.

You're going to practice the free throw.

Like you're really going to practice the free throw.

Now, if you're there to burn calories, it doesn't matter.

You're just going to throw the ball as much as you want, right?

Strength training,

the better you perform the exercise, the better the results.

A well-performed squat is going to give you so much more in benefit than a poorly performed squat.

Forget injury risk.

Even that, I mean, that's massive, right?

It's just going to give you much more.

So when you go to the gym, rather than thinking, I'm going to hit legs, I'm going to hit shoulders, I'm going to hit back, be like, I'm going to practice squats.

I'm going to practice my overhead press.

I'm going to practice my rows.

That also tends to give people more appropriate intensity because when they think of just hitting a muscle group, they tend to go beyond.

fatigue, their form breaks down, and they're just trying to feel sore, which tends to be excessive for most people.

So just go practice.

What about variety though?

Like if you just the same five exercises over and over again, your body will eventually acclimate and then you're just basically is well let's let's start there.

Let's start there.

But yes, I definitely think, and I don't think it is good to train in different planes of motion

with different exercises and movements.

Now, that becomes more of an issue when you're really consistent and you've been doing it for a while.

So if you, let's say I pick five, let's say I just pick, I'll pick five exercises, okay?

Let's say you pick the barbell squat or some kind of a squat, some kind of a hip hinge like a deadlift, some kind of a row, some kind of a horizontal press like a bench press or a push-up, and some kind of an overhead press, let's say a barbell overhead press.

So, let's say

a variation of those ones.

Well, see, that's it.

There's a million variations, but let's just say

a variation of some one of those.

Let's just say there's, for argument's sake, it's it's a deadlift, squat, uh, bench press, row, overhead press.

And that's all you did.

If you were consistent for like a year and a half doing that, you're amazing.

Now, after that, okay, let's add some rotation.

Let's add some lateral movement.

Let's add some, you know, some variety.

But people get caught up with variety to where they think they have to do something different every time they work out and they're not consistent enough to really make that make a difference because there's a skill acquisition that happens from the exercise as well.

Like you're not going to get a lot out of the squat until you you practice it for a while.

So, I tell people, like, let's just stick with like four or five really good exercises, practice them.

Then, when you've been consistent for a while, then now look at different, you know, movements and ways, but first perfect some of those basics before you, you know, it's like you're in, it's like you're learning martial arts and you got to learn the straight kick.

And you're like, I want to learn the double heel, you know, super spin, double, whatever.

And your instructor's like, okay, practice this freaking straight front kick first.

Before you move on to the next one.

Yeah, otherwise the variety doesn't do much.

But yeah, later on, it becomes important because then you can develop injury overuse and stuff like that.

What about for, okay,

do you, do you believe in pre-workouts or

like an espresso shop before you work out or a neither?

Caffeine definitely has a performance enhancing effect.

It definitely boosts dopamine and the feeling of motivation.

So I mean, I take caffeine before I work out almost every single time.

However,

how much though?

And also, can your body acclimate to it?

Big time, right?

If caffeine, well, I'll just say this, if caffeine were discovered today, it would be a scheduled drug.

That's, that's, it's a, it has a high risk, pro, a high risk profile.

Um, I don't know what the LD50 is, but, um, you know,

more, it's one of the number one reasons, one of the number one drug reasons, if you were to put all, all categories that you could put into in the drug category.

One of the number one reasons people go to emergency rooms is they had too much caffeine.

What?

Oh, yeah.

Caffeine is, oh yeah.

Like if I gave you a thousand milligrams of caffeine, you'd probably have a heart attack, right?

Cardiac, and that's not, that's not hard to do.

That'd be like three of those coffees right there.

So, um, and we, we, you know, it's, what is that?

LD50 is, uh, is 150 to 200 milligrams per kilo.

Yeah, lethal intoxications have been made with doses as low as 57 milligrams per kilogram.

It is, it is, if it was discovered today, it would be a drug.

It's crazy that we let kids have it and all that stuff.

That's crazy.

It's been a part of culture for so long that it's accepted.

But I find now i've been drinking coffee for so long it doesn't even affect me anymore like if i drink coffee it's a classic drug you develop a tolerance your body adapts you have classic withdrawal when you go off like going off caffeine sucks sucks it is it's like i need a week of no work if i'm gonna do that otherwise i'm not productive i'm in a bad mood so that's the thing with caffeine so when when we talk about caffeine and it also depends on the individual some people are more sensitive than others and if your stress is high it might not be a good idea because it can boost things like cortisol and and all that but oh sorry but i was going to say i don't want to interrupt you but is it i feel a difference when i drink like a shot let's say of espresso before i work out versus like a pre-workout that has like 200 milligrams it's probably more caffeine in the in the pre-workout but wow so 200 milligrams versus let's say a cold brew uh so it depends on the size but an espresso shot would be like between 70 probably around 70 milligrams but i'm not drinking the full pre-workout drink i'm having let's say a half of it not not even.

I just feel like, is it more psychosomatic?

I think it's stronger.

Well, it depends on what's in the pre-workout.

So a lot of pre-workouts don't just have caffeine.

In fact,

they add other stimulants or other potentiators in there.

And this pre-workout market, it's funny.

The pre-workout workout got invented sometime in the 90s.

Before that, there was no such thing as a pre-workout.

category of supplements.

I remember the first pre-workout that was ever sold.

It's called Ultimate Orange, and it was ephedra caffeine.

It was the old ephedra.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

that's a good time yeah it was a good time yeah it was and then they started to uh you know i don't know who did this for i think it was gaspari did this with super pump 250 i think it was he did a brilliant marketing where he had pictures of guys before the workout and then right after with the pump like look at this supplement increases the pump and blood flow and blah blah blah and so of course you know if i have a pump i look like i'm 10 pounds more muscle so it sold a shit ton of supplements and because because you feel it when you take it it's an easy sell like here take this do you feel that oh yeah i I want this.

Right.

So it became this whole category of supplements.

And they include things like amino acids and citrulline for blood flow and beta-alanine for whatever.

And

I mean,

and then you develop a relationship with it where I can't work out without it type of deal.

I mean, caffeine's got some health benefits too.

It seems to be anti-Alzeimer's in some cases and pro-cognitive function.

But it's a case-by-case basis.

I think use it appropriately.

And you can definitely abuse it.

I think most people abuse caffeine.

Most people consume too much caffeine.

It affects their sleep negatively.

And they've got such a high tolerance to it that they're just experiencing side effects.

I typically tell people to cycle caffeine down every,

you know, two months or so, where they'll go, take your dose, whatever that is, and drop it down 50 milligrams, you know, every two or three days until you're down to like a really low dose.

Stay there for a while and then bump it back up.

But easier said than done.

That is one of the hardest things for me to do.

Caffeine is hard for me to.

It's a hard one, right?

Oh, man.

Can, can you, I know we're going to wrap it.

So I want you to tell me your daily rituals.

Like what is your, the day in the life of you from what time you wake up, what workout you do, how you do your workout, how long it is

from the beginning.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm a better teacher than student.

So

I,

you know, I started working out because of body image issues, largely solved.

I think they're always going going to be there, but largely solved.

But I still have this insecurity around not being capable or adequate.

So that can drive things behind the scenes when it comes to workouts.

I like to feel capable and strong.

Okay.

I don't like to feel like a burden.

And we don't need to go into why, but we can go into why.

Yeah, no, but that, but that's that's a thing, right?

So, and also, I have a

complicated relationship with substances.

Um, uh,

working out and fitness has kept me away from um really bad relationships with other

substances, but um I don't like bad feelings.

So I tend to distract myself and I, you know, I take too many supplements and I know most of them do nothing.

So I'm gonna caveat that.

Okay, okay.

So I'll be honest with personally what I do.

So I'll wake up first thing in the morning.

What time?

5 a.m.

Typically.

Feed my daughter.

I have a 14 month old.

So I'll feed her so she doesn't wake up too early or whatever.

And then I tend to go down into the garage and I'll take,

depending on the peptide that I'm using at the moment, I'll use either a growth hormone releasing peptide in combination with,

so there's some, there's, God, epimerillin is one that I'll use.

CJC is another one that I'll use.

Or

I'll use something like BPC157, which doesn't boost growth hormone, but I'll take that in the morning along with DHEA and pregnant alone.

And then I'll feed my daughter and then I'll come downstairs.

Hold on, are those all peptides?

DHA?

No, those are hormones.

Those are over-the-counter, DHEA and pregnantolone.

So I'm on testosterone replacement therapy.

Okay.

And I take DHEA and pregnantolone because there's a balance of those hormones that you want with testosterone.

So when you take exogenous testosterone, you're not going through the different production pathways that you normally would.

Right.

And so oftentimes you want to supplement with DHEA to balance things out.

How long have you been on that for?

I've been on testosterone now for

almost three years, two and a half years.

So long story short, in my 20s, I used anabolic steroids and that probably contributed to,

and they were over the, back then they were over the, it doesn't matter.

They were designer steroids, but they were,

they definitely

hampered my natural testosterone.

Once I hit like late 30s and 40s, I got my testosterone levels checked and they were just not good.

And I was doing everything right and it just wasn't coming up.

So I'm like, okay, I got to bite the bullet.

So it went on testosterone.

So

DHEA, pregnantolone,

peptide, feed my daughter, come back downstairs.

And then I'll take an array of supplements before I work out.

So it could be almost anything that I'm experimenting with or having fun with.

So cordyceps typically is in there.

Caffeine is almost always in there.

Maybe beta-alanine would be in there.

Maybe rhodiola would be in there.

So it could be a whatever mix.

And I'll take it.

Is rhodiola really good for focus?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's got some great adaptogenic effects.

So it helps the body deal with stress.

Can be a little stimulating for some people, though.

Because it's supposed to be like the natural Adderall, right?

I hate when people say that.

Oh, is that not?

No, I had a prescription for Adderall because I have ADD.

And no, it's nothing like Adderall.

It's ridiculous.

It's not like Adderall.

No.

Because people are like, oh, could you have ADD?

Like, I feel like I have ADD, but I don't want to go on a drug.

They're like, take this rhodiola.

Have you taken Adderall?

I have, and it worked for like a week, and then my body acclimated.

So I said, fuck this.

It doesn't do Adderall.

I developed a bad relationship with it.

It was like a drug.

It was like I was using a drug.

I had to cut myself off of it.

By the way, that's very common.

I feel that's, I've heard that story like for me.

And also when you're not on, when I was on it for like a few weeks, when I was off of it, it was like withdrawal.

It was like being on speed.

And then my, your, your, not your dopamine, your serotonin drops really low.

It wasn't good.

I I can't believe they give it to kids and all that, but that's a whole other discussion.

So, no, I actually developed a bad relationship with it.

In what way?

Oh, I just, it made me impulsive.

My behavior started to change.

I wanted to seek out novelty with other substances.

And, you know, it affected.

my libido in weird ways.

In what way?

Oh, it could be, I could see how it's a party drug.

Like, I could see how people use it.

Really?

Yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely.

And so I just,

I was like, uh-oh, so I, you know, I talked to my wife about it, and I'm like, I need to get off and I need to tell you that I'm going to get off because I don't trust myself on my own on this.

Yeah.

So I stopped, I stopped completely off that.

When was that?

Oh, that was, God, Doug, when has that been?

Like a year or two years with the Adderall?

It's been at least at least that long.

I remember telling these guys.

How long were you on it for?

On and off for probably a year and a half or so.

What was the, like, how many milligrams were you taking?

They had me on,

they had me on

20 milligrams during a day, which is not an like, like sometimes kids will take that dose, which is crazy.

Which is, but do you know what they were saying?

By the way, I found myself taking more sometimes.

This is why I noticed that.

Oh, this is when I started to get worried.

I was like, why am I feeding for this and wanting more and more and more?

Which was not good.

Well, you know what they said to me when I wanted to get off of it?

They're like, well, when I got off of it, they were like, well,

it's because you don't have, like, if you have those symptoms, it's because then you don't have ADHD.

If you had ADHD, it wouldn't have that same effect.

Whatever.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Maybe, maybe not.

I don't know.

For me, it wasn't great.

So I went off.

So, like I said, I went off that.

No, rhodiola is not like

your last.

I hate the

ads like that.

I'm like, no, it's not.

Is it because it doesn't, it's not as effective?

Or does it have, did you find it have any of the straightforward state?

It's a methamphetamine.

It is not a methamphetamine.

The closest to a methamphetamine you would get in natural form would be caffeine or ephedra.

Ephedra.

I was going going to say that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Something like that, right?

And ephedra is, they do make methamphetamines off of ephedra.

That's why you can't buy Pseudofed over the counter anymore.

Yeah, I know.

That's why you can't buy Pseudafed.

Yeah.

So where were we?

Oh, in the morning.

So I'll do that with a supplement.

What other supplements are you on?

Right now, right?

So we have a partnership with mphormones.com, which

that's our link for a company we work with that does peptides and hormone therapy.

So, you know, I'll go, I'll try different things.

So Diehexa is one that I'm on now.

It's a nootropic.

I think I like it.

BPC 157, I said that one.

What else have I tried?

Oh,

alpha, oh, God,

now it's alpha

TB500 is another one that I like a lot

for repair and recovery.

This is a supplement or a peptide?

Peptide.

Peptide.

You're taking a lot of peptides.

Well, see, this is a problem, Jen.

Because I have connections to supplements and peptide companies, now I have access to all these different things.

This is why I had to give the caveat that I'm a much better teacher.

No, I know.

Half the time when I'm talking to people about body image issues and bad relationships, that's because I struggle with them myself.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's why I communicate to it.

Well, that's what they say, stay by the you can't, if you can't do, you teach a lot of time, right?

That's what they say.

And then, okay, so of all the supplements that you take, which ones do you find to be the most effective?

Oh, I mean, creatine, you know, multivitamin for nutrient deficiencies and creatine.

I mean, if you're going to take a supplement for health, longevity, muscle strength, recovery, brain health, creatine across the board.

It's proven to be like the king of all supplements, regardless of what your goals are.

It's good for your organs.

It's good for your brain.

It's good for your heart.

We all know it helps with athletic performance.

But how do you take it if it's not in a powder form?

Do they make them a supplement form?

Yeah, you can take capsules, but you probably have to take a lot of capsules, like five or six to get the...

Right, but I don't like to drink the smoothies.

And people who don't like love.

What about do a dry scoop and you wash it down with the bottom?

Oh, God.

Do you do that?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I'm a fanatic.

You really are.

I loved.

I didn't know any of this about you.

And then are you fit?

So in the workout space.

So then, okay, you take the supplements, then you go do your workout.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

How long do you work out for?

45 minutes to an hour.

Okay.

And then if I have time, I can.

Full body?

Depends.

It depends on what I'm doing.

So it could be full body.

It could be a split.

It really depends.

I mean, I can cycle through all kinds of different kinds of workouts.

So remember, he's doing a split because he's a fanatic and he'll work out what?

Six times a week.

He's full body every day, right?

Well, no, but you're like, he was, you were saying earlier to do full body, let's say twice a week, but that's for the average person who's not a fanatic like you, who's been doing this forever and will knows that your brain will work out at least six times a week.

Yeah, so I'm at least five days a week working on it.

At least, yeah.

So at least.

So like if you don't work out, are you, is your brain just just like a monkey brain um

no i mean

it'll be a lot of family time um

it'll be reflection uh walking go but yeah i do find it difficult i do find it difficult to sit still and be alone for sure that's that's hard for me because i think i'm just generally uncomfortable are you uncomfortable now no no because you're doing a podcast yes i feel very comfortable when i do this so

you know that's why i think this is a good fit wow okay But yeah, but on my own.

What happens afterwards?

After what?

The podcast, the workout, whatever.

How do you like, what do you do to distract yourself?

Oh, now I'm trying not to distract myself.

I'm trying to figure out how to not do that.

Yeah, it's been a tough exercise for sure.

So what has worked so far?

Well, I've had to stop using,

I was using cannabis too regularly.

I was using something called kratom.

This is another supplement, quote-unquote supplement, but it's got some opiate-like qualities.

So I've eliminated those completely.

Prayer helps a lot because I find that I cannot, I have to be very honest.

I can't lie, obviously, because God knows everything, right?

So,

that helps a lot.

And then just sitting and being uncomfortable and allowing myself to be uncomfortable.

That's that's that's been a new practice that I've been working on.

So, like, it sounds to me like you had like you're like a little bit of a tortured soul in real life.

Totally, yeah, completely.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, look, um,

I, I, that's probably one of the drivers behind why I do what I do.

It helps me.

I think I can relate to people in many cases because of it, for sure.

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable in their own skin.

It's when I share these, you know, like what I'm sharing right now, I get so many messages from people who are like, oh my God, that's me.

Or, I mean, just look, Jen,

people are on their phones or they're drinking coffee or alcohol or something.

It's like,

we're just uncomfortable.

I think that's a human condition.

And I think we've learned how to

not be present in the discomfort to the point where we're just never present.

And

it's become so natural to us that I don't think we know what we're missing.

Like I deleted Instagram off my phone for that reason.

And it's so much better being off Instagram.

So much.

Now I have to have Instagram for the business, but I have people managing it.

Oh, that's why you have someone managing it for you

because you couldn't do it.

It's just too, too distracting.

And I get caught up in the whatever.

Social media can do that.

With my phone, I try to leave my phone.

There's a part, there's like a counter at home that I leave it on so that I'm not like reaching for it.

I mean, I tell this story.

I remember when my young, my three-year-old was like, he was like two.

And I remember he was playing and I was with him.

So he's playing and he's over there playing on his own.

And I was on my phone.

And then I'm like, okay, I got to be more present.

I got to be more present.

So I put my phone down down and I'm just sitting there watching him.

And I didn't realize this before, broke my heart.

The kid every few minutes or so would look to see if I was watching.

And I missed it probably the whole time, the whole, you know, up until he was that age because I was on my damn phone.

So my kid looks up and sees dad is not even there.

So I was like, I got to, this is a problem.

No, I've been paying attention.

Yeah.

I think that is the culture and the world we live in.

And it's really hard to detach from that and make a difference.

I know you have to.

I see that, that, Doug.

Thanks, Doug.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Oh my gosh.

No, I feel bad.

Like, I know you have to be out of here.

So, okay, I will, I, I will wrap this.

I, we're just getting going, Doug.

I have like another, I have another 30 minutes at least in me, but okay.

Let's come back.

Okay, fine.

We'll do it again.

We'll do it again.

But, um,

Sal, it's always a pleasure.

I love, I love talking to you.

No, I really love talking to you too.

And this is, um, this is a real treat.

So, Sal, go to whatever the hell you're going to to distract yourself next.

You want to know where I'm going right now?

Yeah.

I'm going to a vasectomy appointment.

It'll be my, like, the first one.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

I got four kids.

I know.

You're like a machine over there.

You got to relax.

Yeah.

Well, your libido is obviously working fine.

Well, you don't need to have a lot of sex to have four kids.

Well, no, I know, but I'm saying at least when you do have sex, it works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know?

But that's where you're going.

Okay.

Okay.

My wife will kill me if I miss this one.

I understand.

Okay, fine.

You can go, but

follow Sal.

He won't respond to you.

His assistant is a good one.

Just listen to my podcast.

Yeah, just listen to Mind Pump, of course, the best fitness podcast on the planet.

Thank you so much, Sam.

Oh, you're so welcome.

Thank you.

Thanks, Doug.

All right.