Episode 271: Laura Gassner Otting: Why Success Doesn't Feel Like It Should + What to Do About It

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

Laura Gastner Odding, that's the way you put it, right?

Okay, her new book is called Wonder Hell.

Her first bestseller was Limitless, which I also highly recommend.

Before we go right into

Wonder Hell, because I have a lot of questions.

I also saw your TED Talk, which was very good.

I want to know your, like, how did you become an author, like double author?

What was your like evolution?

Yeah, so my evolution was in 2007, I got a phone call from Kaplan Publishing, and the phone call was this, Hi, we'd like you to write a book.

Are you interested?

And I said, Oh, come on, who is this?

I thought it was a friend of mine, Crank, calling me.

And basically, what they said was, We're writing this Change Your Career series, one about going into nursing, one about going into teaching, and one about going into nonprofit work.

And at the time, I was doing headhunting for nonprofits, universities, socially responsible businesses, anybody sort of in the mission-driven space.

And I said, sure, why not?

I've kind of always wanted to write a book.

Why not do it?

So I wrote a book in 2007, which was this sort of how-to manual type of thing.

Put that on the shelf, right?

I put it out, I dealt with it, but put that story on a shelf.

Fast forward several years later, it's 2016, and I'm selling that executive search firm to the team of women who helped me build it.

And I

just kind of had this moment of identity crisis when I'm no longer LGO CEO.

Who am I?

And I bought a website, lauragastnerauding.com, because I'm super clever.

And I started blogging on it.

And the executive producer of TEDx Cambridge called me up.

And TEDx Cambridge is like one of the big TEDxs.

Calls me up.

I know it is.

It's a big one.

It's a big one.

And she says, we just saw your blog post.

It's really great.

It would make a great talk.

Do you want to do a TEDx talk?

And I went, no way.

That's terrifying.

I don't want to speak in public.

I've never spoken in public.

I don't want to do it.

But my kids are in the back seat and they're like, mom, don't you always tell me we have to do scary things?

Don't you always tell me life starts on the other side of the fear?

And I was like, oh, you don't listen to me to tell you to pick up your socks, but that, that is cracked.

So six weeks later, I'm on the stage.

I give this TEDx talk and it gets a little attention and I get offers to go speak for money.

And I was like, well, that's really interesting.

I've just spent the last 20 years in the deliverables business where like a four month, six months project, and I have to finish with like this giant three-ring binder, three-inch binder of like handing over reports.

And now I just go and I talk and you give me money.

Tell me more about this job.

How interesting.

But then I started to notice that the people who were getting paid what I considered real money, right?

Like five figures and up, all had books.

So I was like, okay, for those people who know I have a book, let's go back to that shelf.

I'm like the nonprofit girl.

So that's confusing because that's not what I talk about.

And for those who don't know that I have a book, I don't have a book.

So I either have brand confusion or no brand.

So I was like, I got to get me a book.

And since I had written the sort of how-to manual for careers, I had confidence knowing that I could produce a, you know, a 40,000, 60,000 word thing.

So I started talking to a bunch of publishing firms to see if they'd let me write a book under their imprint.

And so I kind of really wrote it mostly because I needed a fancy business card to be legit.

Cause at the time I was like, Some people get on put on stage for $5,000 and some people get put on stage for $50,000.

And I don't know that it's necessarily merit-based.

So it's got to be based in like, what are all the specific markers that they need?

And a book, a big idea book, was one of them.

I love the honesty there because it's absolutely true.

You know what I mean?

Like, the truth is now everybody and their dog writes books because they want to have a business card or something to hawk, right?

Yes.

And so there's that.

And the fact is, you're right, there's a huge gap between the $3,000 speakers and like the $100,000 speakers.

And a lot of times it has nothing to do with anything but the book is maybe one of it and having the right kind of contacts and you know representation and all the other stuff to get that so are you speaking then most is that kind of how your business is now you speak most of the time or i do so you know i have a course and i do some coaching and but honestly none of that's really scalable and you know i really like i enjoy getting up on stage in front of 500 people or 5 5,000 people and doing a talk that I know that if I tell a story a specific way, that lady in the first row is going to cry.

And if I tell the story in a different way, that guy in the second row is going to be nodding along.

And I'm just, I find it so fascinating.

Like, how do you move people by walking that line between being aspirational?

and inspirational and relatable, right?

So like on one side of the line is like, like that person's inspiring.

They've climbed Mount Everest.

They've, you know, been to space.

They won a Super Bowl.

Like, wow, I'm so inspired by them.

But then there's aspirational.

Like, I'm never going to climb Mount Everest.

I'm never going to space.

I'm never going to Super Bowl, but maybe I could run a marathon like that person did, or maybe I could start a business like that person did.

So I'm going to aspire to be like them.

So I try to be like, I try to inspire people to move, but be sort of aspirational enough that they can see themselves in my story, but relatable enough that they can see themselves doing the thing that they actually want to do.

I just spoke in Austin to like a thousand people.

And at the end of the event, somebody came up to me and she gave me what I consider to be the biggest compliment in speaking.

She said, I loved what you had to say.

I laughed, I cried.

I feel like you were talking just to me.

But honestly, I came up to you because I want to know who makes your pants because they're amazing.

Are they the red pants?

Are they the red pants?

Well, so I have those

pants in yellow and green.

Yes, they are the red pants, but they were yellow at the ones I was wearing out.

But the fact that she was like, that was amazing.

And also you're relatable enough that i feel like i can come ask you about your pants i was like yes i did it you won yeah yeah i mean i for me this is like a bonus career i'm having a really good time doing it and it was so terrifying to me at first that now going out there and just like living into this full version of myself like a version of me that i didn't know existed four or five years ago has been a really fun sort of like midlife learning opportunity.

That's amazing.

By the way, where are, who did, like, who are those pants by?

Because I do like them too.

They're by Alice and Olivia.

Oh, they are?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

They're great pants.

I saw them.

I was like, wow, I like her pants.

I did see them too.

That is really funny.

They're good pants.

They're really good pants.

I have a number of like New York Times best-selling authors, Olympic medalists, like all kinds of amazing people who now wear those pants because they've seen me and asked me about those pants.

I feel like I should be like an Alice and Olivia ambassador or something.

You should.

You should definitely be.

They should pay you because they they should.

Or they're just very flattering on you.

I don't know, but I did notice them myself.

They, I think they're flattering on everybody.

They're those kinds of pants.

Wow.

Well, okay, now that I know, I'm going to go up.

I'm going to go to their website after.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

So let's talk about.

So you, so did you own the executive search firm and then you sold it?

I did.

I did.

I owned it.

I've been working at a big executive search firm, like the like, you know, marquee, best-in-class type firm.

And I just had this sort of moment of rage one day where I was like, there's a better way to do this work.

Like there's a faster, better, more authentic, more integrity, better for the clients, better for me.

They can be charged less.

I can make more.

Like everything about it, I just like, I saw a better way.

And I walked into my boss's office one day and I was like, there's a better way.

And he was like, there's the door.

So I started my own firm mostly because once I realized I wasn't part of the solution.

for my clients, it left me in only one place, which is that I was part of the problem.

And I, that was untenable for me.

Wow.

And so, did you do mostly tech people?

Is that what you do?

No, it was all C-suite.

So it was CEOs, CFOs, chief marketing officers, chief operating officers, chief strategy officers, and board-level positions.

Oh, for across the board, like in any way.

Across the boards.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

So all C-suite, senior level, C-suite, and above for, like I said, nonprofits, foundations, universities, socially responsible businesses, advocacy organizations, service organizations.

Wow.

So 501, C3, and C4, and then a whole broad range of political people.

So you must be a great salesperson.

You know, it's really funny that you say that because I never considered myself a salesperson, and I am actually kind of a raging introvert.

Like, I could talk one-on-one all day long, and I can get on stage and talk to 5,000 people.

But if you ask me to like talk to 10 or work a room at a party, I will curl up in fetal position because it's really terrifying, terrifying to me.

So the thought that I was in sales really kind of freaked me out at first.

Like it didn't feel good.

It didn't feel authentic.

And then what I realized was we're all in sales.

Like every one of us is in sales.

Like I wasn't selling talent.

I wasn't selling research.

I wasn't selling strategy.

I was selling trust.

Totally.

And if my clients trusted me, then everything else was taken care of.

Like we all sell trust all day, every day.

I also think that like the fundamental trait that someone has to have for success is you have to be a good salesperson.

You got to be selling yourself, you know, for people to like you, to believe in you, to trust you, whatever.

You're going to sell a product, a widget.

Like, if you don't have that fundamental down, you're going to have a hard time.

I just, that's why people who come from your background, I find, always do well, like later on, because it's a, you're selling, like, you're selling somebody.

You're selling people, literally.

Yeah.

And I mean, what I realized, the day that I got good at selling was the day that I realized that my clients didn't care about my problem.

My problem was that I needed more money.

I needed more clients.

I needed more, because I needed to make my nut, right?

I needed to close the deal.

I didn't care about that.

So I used to go in and I would give this amazing pitch.

And I mean, I was so geeked out about it.

Like, I was really good at pitching.

And I was pitching all the super geeked out, different, new way that we were doing executive search.

And I didn't sell any work.

And then another day.

And I was like, I don't understand.

Like, I'm happy and I'm thorough and I'm, you know, I've prepared like everything, like all the I's are dotted, all the T's are crossed.

Why aren't I selling anything?

Everything's great.

And then one day I had the gift of having a friend of mine on the search committee that was making a decision.

And afterwards, this friend called me up and I was like, I'm like, all right, so we got the work, right?

And he was like, no.

I was like, what are you talking about?

Like, we crushed it.

Like, what are you talking about?

And he goes, Laura, do you find the world's best talent?

I was like, yeah, we're an executive search firm, man.

That's table stakes.

Of course we do.

Like, I was dumbfounded at his stupidity.

Right.

And he says to me, dumbfounded at my stupidity, he's like, Yeah, Laura, every other firm starts with that and you never even say it.

Like, you were so busy talking about your process that you, we didn't even know that you saw our problem.

And then the very next search I like pitched, I went in and I was like, Hi, my name is Laura Gasnarati, and we find the very best talent.

Now, let me tell you how we do it.

And I sold every single thing after that.

Cause I was like, oh, they don't care about my problem that I need to, you know, pitch them.

They care about their problem, which is that they need to replace their CEO.

And until I show them that I see their problem, then they don't understand that I get their problem, that our problem is like their problem is our problem until our shared problem goes away.

And that was such a tiny but profoundly fundamental shift in the way that I approach selling.

And it's actually changed the way I approach everything.

It's the way that I approach speaking.

It's the way that I approach parenting.

You know, like my kids come home and they have a problem and I'm not like, oh, here's the big solution.

I'm like, oh, that seems hard.

You seem stressed, right?

Like, I have to like see them in their problem.

Yeah.

And then everything else changes.

It's empathy, right?

Like, I think sometimes people always look for a solution.

Like, you know, especially people who are more type A, we want to look for the solution, but not take a step back and then just have like, just to be a sounding board or a show empathy, which goes so much further sometimes.

It goes so much further.

It took me so long to understand that my kids didn't want the solution until they understood that I recognized their pain.

Like they needed, they needed to be honored in their pain before they could like brainstorm a solution.

And once I honored them in their pain, they're like, yeah, it's hard.

Do you want to brainstorm a solution?

Yes.

And then it was fine.

But if I went right to solution, they like ground their feet in and it just became harder.

And I think we're all, you know, eight-year-olds at the end of the day.

We really are, honest.

I agree.

Because even with I, when I have a problem, I don't, I want someone just to like listen to me vent.

Yes.

You know, I don't want them to be like, well, you know what you should be doing is this, this, this, and this, because that just gets you your backup.

Right.

I mean, it dishonors you.

It dishonors your feelings.

It makes you, frankly, it doesn't make you into the hero of your own story.

It makes you the victim.

It makes them the hero of your story.

Right.

Right.

And we all want to be the hero of our own story.

Absolutely.

So then let's now get into Wonder Hell and how it came to be.

So it's been out for a little bit and it's already, you said, like on the Wall Street, on the Wall Street Journal bestsellers list.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And so number one,

what is Wonder Hell?

Let's start with the obvious.

Yes.

And then we can move on from there.

Yeah.

So Wonder Hell is the space in between who you were yesterday and who you just realized you can become tomorrow.

So every time we achieve anything, whether it's this huge thing like selling your company or a small thing like selling your very first search, you're like, oh, that was exciting.

It was amazing.

It was humbling.

It was wonderful.

And also, I wonder what else I could do.

Like, I wonder how much more I could do.

And it's, it's overwhelming and it's anxiety provoking and it's stress inducing and it's imposter syndrome, you know, introducing.

So it's wonderful, but it's hell.

It's wonder hell.

And wonder hell is the space where the burden of your potential walks into your psyche and goes, hey, what you got for me?

Huh?

Like, what are you going to do with this newfound potential, this newfound you that you now can see that you didn't know existed last week, last month, last year?

Are you going to live into it?

Are you going to let it pass you by?

Right, because once you see yourself doing something, it's very hard to unsee yourself doing it, right?

Yes, absolutely.

And in 20 years of doing executive search, I noticed that external candidates always left if they didn't get the job.

And sometimes it was because they were, you know, sad or they were offended or they were treated badly.

But mostly, even if they were treated great, it was because the very process of interviewing for that job meant they literally had to wear the clothes of that role and speak in the voice of that role and think in in the mindset of that role.

And once they saw themselves in this bigger role, they couldn't unsee themselves in this new way.

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You know what's so interesting, right?

Like, before we even talk about that, right?

Because once you see envision yourself, envision yourself somewhere, like, you know, Steve Harvey does.

Do you know who Steve Harvey is?

You know, he's the comedian.

He does this bit that I saw a long time ago that he's like, everyone should sit in first class one time.

Because once you sit in first class, you're never going to want to sit and coach again because

the seats are bigger.

You know, you get your cloth, napkins, your your warm nuts, your warm nuts, everything else.

And so you're going to do everything from that point on to make sure that you're doing things that you can always sit in first class, right?

And it's true, right?

Like you get like a whiff of the good life, so to speak, and you can't unwhip it, I guess is how you put it.

You can't unwhip it.

You can't unwhip it.

So, but before we even talk about that, let's talk about self-doubt in general, right?

Because most people, before they even are at that place, I'm curious to get your thoughts on how people could even overcome their doubt in the first place to even get to a place where they can vision themselves in that place.

Yeah, I mean, I think self-doubt comes in a lot of different ways.

And, you know, one of the ways it comes most is when we get to a place we never thought we could get to.

We look around and we're like, okay, so I'm just going to keep doing what I did and hope it's going to get me where I'm going.

And we know that what got us here isn't going to get us there.

And so the first thing we experience then is failure, right?

Like the thing that we did to get here isn't the thing that's going to get us there.

So it's not working.

And then the voices start coming into our head.

Either those voices are inside of our head telling us we're not good enough, we don't belong, we're imposters, or they're people outside of us saying, maybe you're dreaming too big, maybe you're too big for your britches, are you sure you should do that?

It's too scary, right?

Mostly it's because they're thinking, I don't know if I could do it, I'm too scared.

But all of these little seeds, like they germinate in our brain and they become like these cancerous weeds.

And the minute something goes wrong, we go, oh, I guess they were right.

I guess this is as far as I'm going to go.

But the truth is, what got us to hear isn't going to get us to there, but what got us to hear is the ability to learn lessons, to build a network, to get smarter, to fail, to pick ourselves up over and over and over again.

So, what we have to remember is that what got us to hear isn't going to get us to there, but it is the foundation on which we build the lessons that we learn to get to the next place.

It's not that we're not good, we're just not good yet, right?

Right, right, right.

But how do we, how do people take that and really believe it, right?

You can say it, you can, but you have to then act at the end of the day.

I think it's understanding that the time horizon is longer.

So it's not like failure is not finale.

It's fulcrum.

It's the place from which we learn and we grow and we iterate and we change.

And so what I often tell people to do is if you're full of doubt and you don't know if you can do the next thing, make a list of all the things that you are proudest of in your life so far.

And then make a list next to them how you felt going into that.

Were you confident that you could do it 100% without a doubt you were actually going to succeed?

Or were you not so confident?

What did you need to learn to get there?

And what you start building is you start building a track record because emotions have a hard time arguing with facts, right?

So you have facts that you can lay out and you can see, here's a roadmap of the things that I learned how to do.

Here's where I failed along the way.

Here's where I got better.

Here's where I got smarter.

Here's what that lesson led to that then brought me to the next thing.

You actually see that it's this longer horizon of where you are.

The other thing I tell people to do is on that list of things, the places where you failed and you decided not to go forward, what door did that open that you weren't expecting?

That also was something that was interesting.

So along the way, like the only interesting people I interviewed in 20 years of executive search were the ones who made right turns and left turns and U-turns.

So all of the picking yourself up and figuring it out actually makes us much much more interesting people.

Also, by the way, I have a real bone to pick with this Instagram meme of follow your passion.

Like follow your passion says all you need to do is find your passion and then you just follow it and everything's going to be great.

Hunky dory, easy money.

But the truth is that your passion is going to gut you.

It's going to throw you down.

It's going to have its way with your bank account, right?

It is going to tear you apart.

The falling down and getting up and falling down and getting up, which you will do because you're passionate about that thing is what actually makes you good at the thing about which you're passionate.

Doesn't your passion deserve that?

So, I think for me, it comes down to understanding that past is prologue, the long and winding road that got us to here, is full of failure and doubt and uncertainty.

It's no different than what's to come.

We just have to remind ourselves that, you know, even though we're, you know, we find ourselves at higher and higher heights and we think more people are paying attention to us and watching us and they're going to see us fail, they're really not because nobody's paying that much attention to us in the first place.

No one cares.

No one cares.

My favorite Eleanor Roosevelt quote is, we would worry much less about what people thought about us if we realized how seldomly they did.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Nobody cares.

Nobody cares.

I talk about this at nauseum.

Like everyone, everyone is so self-involved that we actually are so self-involved to believe that other people give a shit what we're doing.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I don't.

All the time.

I'm like, you know how worried you are that everyone's looking at you?

Well, if everyone else is that worried about you looking at them, they don't have any time to think about absolutely looking at them in the first place.

It's 100% true.

Like, people are like, well, I posted this on Instagram, didn't you see?

I'm like, no, I wasn't paying attention.

I was like scrolling fast and I wasn't like looking at it.

Sorry.

Yeah.

You know, like

it's just, we're so self-involved as a society in general, or in whatever.

We have our own problems, our own issues.

We're trying to

level up our own lives.

We're not paying any attention.

And if people realized that, we would be so much more productive, happy.

You name the adjective.

You know, it's so true.

When Wonder Hell came out, there were a lot of people who I really thought were going to post about the book and tweet about the book and write about the book or even just text me and be like, How's it going?

Right.

Or congratulations.

Crickets, nothing.

And then there were people who I don't even know who showed up like crazy for me.

Right.

And, you know, part of me was like a little, you know, in my feels about the whole thing.

Like, I can't believe so-and-so didn't post anything, or I can't believe so-and-so hasn't checked in.

And then one day I woke up and I realized, you know, everybody is going through something that none of us know anything about.

And I have no idea what's happening in their world, if they're busy.

Maybe they hate me.

I have no idea, but it's their problem until I make it my problem.

And if I decide to make it my problem, that's like drinking poison every day, right?

Like, why would I choose to do that?

So like, there's this great quote by Andrew Warhol, which I'm not going to get exactly right, but it's something like, make your art.

And while all the other people are busy thinking about what they think about your art, just keep making more art.

Like, just keep going.

Like, just keep doing your thing.

And your art will find the people that your art is for.

And everyone else, who cares?

Exactly.

I always say, you know,

water always finds its level, but it's true.

Like, the truth of the matter is, I find that also with my book and everything in life, not just my book, whatever, that it's always the people, though, you least expect to come out of the woodwork, to be the most supportive, or you find your best opportunities with.

It's never the people that you assume are going to be there.

I found it's true.

It's really, I mean,

I was also similar to you.

I was like, this is really strange.

I thought this one and this one was going to do this and that.

Right.

And it was like, not at all.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And I think the danger is when

we act generously with expectation of reciprocity.

That's where the real heartbreak lies.

And so, you know, I sort of had this choice: like, do I stop asking, do I stop acting generously?

Do I stop acting abundantly and start keeping score?

Or do I just say, you know what?

I'm just, even though that person didn't post about my book after I posted about their book, when their next book comes out, should I post?

Should I not post?

Should I remember?

How am I going to remember who posted who didn't?

And I was just like, screw it.

I'm just going to keep being abundant and post about everybody.

And I don't care.

Like, that's who I am.

And if I let other people's selfishness, worst case scenario, or just, you know, lack of focus, best case scenario, affect who I am when I shine my light brightest in the world, then I'm making their problem my problem.

And it's, I don't, I just don't want to live that way.

It's like a really dark and yucky way to be.

True, true.

It's hard though.

Like, it's hard not to, you got to like really be conscientious about it because it's easy to be like, you know, keeping score.

Like, I remember and I'm not going to do that.

But to your point, usually like, you know, you pay it forward, it comes back.

Maybe not with those people, but it will in some other way.

Absolutely.

Now, don't get me wrong.

Listen, if somebody actively screws me, I'm not going to be like, sure, no problem.

I'll post about all your stuff.

You know, I mean, like, my memory is long, you know.

Right.

So is mine.

I am, as I write in Wonder Hell, I am quite in favor of burning bridges.

It takes a really long time.

for me to burn that bridge, but man, when that bridge needs to be burned, I show up with, you know, bonfire sticks.

I love that.

Talk about that.

Talk about the burning of the bridges because I think that's something, again, that's not very usual, but go ahead, talk about that.

Yeah, I just think, I think that there are people who have been in our lives, a lot of them because they've always been in our lives, right?

Like we've just known them since elementary school or whatever it is, and they're in a lives and they're just not additive, right?

There's some who, as I mentioned, maybe they see you and they're like, oh, you can't do that.

That's too scary.

What they really mean is, I can't do that.

I'm too scared.

Or maybe they're jealous and they see your rise only through the lens of their own stagnation.

maybe they even love you right they love you and they don't want to see you get hurt and so when you come to them with your big hairy audacious goals they kind of they kind of like plant these seeds of doubt and those seeds they just germinate like they just can't help but be fertilized by our own brain chemistry so I think that there are people in our lives who we give votes to who shouldn't even have voices first and foremost.

We got to stop giving votes in our lives to people who shouldn't have voices.

But then I think they're the people who, when they drop these sort of seeds of discontent and jealousy, and scorekeeping and scarcity, that stuff is contagious.

It's really contagious.

And I think it's really hard not to fall into that.

You know, there's that old Jim Rohn quote that says, you're the average of the five people closest to you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

By the way, that quote is bullshit.

I mean, he said it, but there's no science to back up.

Right.

You just said something that people kind of glommed on to.

Yeah, people glommed on to.

So there is science behind the idea that if your friends are obese, for example, you are 67% more likely to be obese, right?

If your friends are smokers, you're 67% more likely to be smokers.

Like if your friends have bad habits or have, you know, bad behaviors, you are more likely to have them than not.

And the science goes even further and it says these only have to be people that are like in your close geographic proximity.

So it's not somebody living in your house or down the street or the friend you have lunch with every day.

This is the people you consume every day online.

So, if the five people who you consume every day online are misogynists, if they're racist, if they're, you know, if they're not nice people, if they're scarcity-minded, you will slowly become one of those people.

Because what they socialize, you socialize, what they think, you think, what they normalize, you normalize.

And so, for me, when somebody is repeatedly a bad actor, making bad choices, not being, you know, pro-human, right?

They're not being a good person.

I push them out of my life.

I'm done.

Like, I end it.

And, you know, if you're not so comfortable burning the bridge, I think you can also extend the bridge, right?

Like, just take a little longer to return a text, take a little longer to return an email.

Eventually, those people will find someone else to pick up all their garbage.

Right.

And I think a lot of times it can be very subconscious, right?

Like, people talk from their experience a lot of times, right?

So if they haven't, if they live a very myopic way and they've only done like one thing, don't be asking somebody for advice or listen to someone who's never even done anything even quite like that before.

Oh my God.

I literally went on a rant about this on Saturday.

I was like, I want to get t-shirts printed up that say, before you tell me where to go or before you tell me what to do, show me what you've done.

Yeah.

And the back of it, it's like,

hashtag, hashtag, give me your P ⁇ L.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, it's so true.

But we have all of these people.

Like, I just saw a post yesterday of this guy who was like, I'm starting a speaker mastermind.

And like, the whole thing is like do you want to speak for money do you want to get on big stages do you want to stop being paid in quote exposure and i'm thinking to myself he's never made money on selling why is he trying to tell other people like we and and we have all this stuff this is by the way this is a whole other podcast that i talk about i could talk about this thing all day me and a bunch of my friends who are on social media it is one of my biggest pet peeves all these people selling things that they have no business selling they're all never done done.

They've never done.

They're all snake oil salesmen.

Or they know what they are.

They're very shrewd internet marketers and they know how to make a nice funnel and get your attention.

But the problem is a lot of people who don't know any better don't decipher between the ones who are good and bad.

And to me, that's really awful because you're literally stealing money from a bunch of people.

I know literally.

Yeah.

Literally said it's in front of mine.

I'm like, it makes my heart sad that people

are trying to give these people money.

They're crushing it.

Not like not some people.

These people are making millions of dollars preying on people

because they are really good at internet marketing, digital marketing.

Yes, yes.

And it is, you know, and so, you know, what's the advice?

The advice is if you're going to hire somebody to teach you what to do, ask them if they've done it already, right?

Like have them tell you

stories.

Yes, and well.

Like, have they done it?

Have they done it well?

Like, don't hire a business coach who's never built a business.

Don't hire an exit coach who's never sold a business.

Like, or, you know, welcome to social media.

Right.

Like, it might not even be their business, but like, they've helped multiple people sell businesses, right?

Like, it's just like what, like, we, we have to stop asking for directions from people who have never taken the journey.

Yeah, 100%.

I agree.

Okay, getting back to Wonderwell, talk about that.

You made this whole thing.

And the book is like an amusements park, right?

Okay.

You talk about three towns.

It's Imposture Town, Doubtsville, and Burnout City.

Yes.

Okay, tell me about those towns and then, well, just tell me about them.

Yeah, so I created the book to be like an amusement park because the whole idea of the book is like every time we achieve success, we think it's going to be the end.

We think we're finished.

We think we got to the end of the journey.

We think it's going to be easy from there.

It's going to be fun.

And it's kind of like an amusement park where you go and it's three o'clock in the afternoon and you're like, I'm a little sunburned.

I'm a little dehydrated.

That corndog in my stomach is not getting along so well with the cotton candy that I'm stress eating as I'm waiting for the roller coaster that I don't even want to go on.

Right.

So I was like, that would be great.

And I was actually talking with my work wife, this woman who I talk with every Tuesday morning, who has been down the path, right?

Her name is Rahaf Harfouch, and she said, God, what if you made it like a map and it was like, you are here, right?

And so there's these three towns, Imposture Town, Doubtsville, and Burnout City.

And Imposture Town is where we're like, huh, I think I want more.

Is it okay to want more?

Am I allowed to have more?

Am I allowed to want more?

We have this moment of not knowing if we're allowed to dream those bigger dreams.

And so, what we learn in the first part of the book about Imposter Town is how to embrace our ambition.

The second part of the book is called Doubtsville, and that's where, like, we realize that everything we thought we knew for certain is wrong, and the only thing for certain is that we know nothing for certain, and that every new level brings a new devil, and it keeps teaching us all the things that we didn't know, and that we have to figure out the next one.

So, that's when we learn how to renegotiate our relationship with these emotions.

So, all of the doubt and uncertainty and anxiety, these aren't limitations telling us not to go forward, but invitations telling us that we're actually on the right track, that we're pushing towards something we didn't know we could do.

And how amazing is that?

And then the last part of the book is called Burnout City.

And what I talk about in Burnout City is that every one of the hundred glass ceiling shatterers, Olympic medalists, startup unicorns, CEOs, entrepreneurs, thinkers, creators, philanthropists, everyday people like you and I, who I spoke to when I found myself in Wonder Hell and try to figure out a way out.

All of those people actually

never found the way out of Wonder Hell because on the other side of their Wonder Hell was just the next one and the next one and the next one after that.

I learned that Wonder Hell loves a repeat visitor.

And so it's not about learning how to get through it and survive it.

It's about learning how to look forward to it and be excited by it and learn from it and thrive in it.

instead.

And then in each of these sections, there's different rides that evoke all the emotions that we have.

I really like that.

The part that I loved is you put, you say something about like turning your limitations into invitations.

Yes.

What is that?

Yeah.

Tell the audience.

Tell the listeners.

Tell the people.

Tell them.

So every time we see something we haven't done before, there's a voice inside our head that says, oh, no.

I haven't done this before.

And if we change the way we interpret that voice, not as the sort of governor who stops us from going too hard and getting hurt, but as a cheering section that goes, oh, wow, I haven't done this before,

and changes it into an adventure.

That changes the way that we interpret these feelings.

Just like, you know, they say that the number one fear that people have is public speaking.

The number two fear that people have is death, right?

The number three fear that people have is getting bitten by a snake.

So, like, you're definitely going to survive public speaking, and you're probably going to survive getting bitten by a snake, but you're probably not going to survive death.

And yet, death, not the number one fear.

I know, it's so crazy this is crazy but what does it feel like when you're about to get on stage or you're about to do something that terrifies you your heart starts racing your stomach starts fluttering your knees start shaking you start to sweat a little bit but what does it feel like when you're really excited about something your heart starts racing your stomach has butterflies your knees start knocking same exact feeling so the way that these emotions manifest in our bodies are the same so we can either continue them by saying i'm scared i'm scared i'm scared or we could say actually this is just a sign that I'm excited.

Lucky me, I'm glad to be here.

And we can elevate ourselves into moving forward.

Because the hard thing about doing hard things isn't the hard.

It's just the do.

It's the getting started.

Like, you don't have to be brave for 60 minutes on stage.

You just have to be brave for 60 seconds as you're walking out.

And then the momentum takes over and you find yourself in flow.

Right, right, right.

Hopefully, hopefully.

Unless you hire one of these guys to teach you.

Yeah,

then maybe there's a whole other situation.

And then you'd say something.

I don't know, I heard it on one of the things, but because we talk all, we hear a lot about transferable skills, but you say something called translatable skills.

Yes, yes.

Okay, what is that?

So I was talking before about how everything that got you to here won't get you to there.

Yeah.

So say, you know, say, say you have been working your entire career in sales, for example.

And what are the skills that you need for sales?

You need to be able to research your prospects.

You need to be able to, you need to be able to make the ask.

You need to be able to steward somebody, you know, through something.

You need to understand how to follow up.

You need to understand a product, right?

You have to like, there's certain skills you have to have.

Those skills are not going to transfer directly to, say, raising money on behalf of a nonprofit.

Because maybe you're not selling lawnmowers to raise money for a nonprofit, but all the things that you had to do, those skills will transfer over.

Or sorry, they'll translate over.

So if you're raising money for a nonprofit, you still have to research your prospects.

You still have to figure out when to ask.

You still have to steward the donors, you'll still have to understand the mission.

So, we a lot of times we think about leveling up or changing our careers or moving into something we haven't done before as this sort of literal thing.

I haven't done it, so I'm not going to be able to do it.

And we stop at the borders of our nine-to-five job, also.

So, we think, what are the skills that I've had there?

What's the network?

What have I been able to accomplish in that job?

When really, we need to do two things.

We need to think not just about directly transferable skills, column A, column A, but how does column A translate into possibly column B or column C or column D?

And also, what other skills do I have from outside of my paid work, from volunteering in my community or my place of worship or raising my family?

What other kinds of skills have I developed?

Because those are all the skills that

they can translate into other things that we might be doing.

Okay, so transferable and translating are pretty, still, you're still using the same skills that you harness from something else and putting them towards something else.

So the translatable and transferable, they still seem pretty similar, no?

Well, so the transferable skills is like, I was a salesperson here, I'll be a salesperson there, right?

It's complete, it's the same thing.

But for

what you're saying, yeah, I'm thinking something different.

I'm saying if I'm good in sales.

doing selling this widget I can still take that same essence of knowing how to sell and sell this other widget like it doesn't have to be the same thing right so that's a that's a transferable skill That's, that's direct.

That's, you know,

they're very similar.

Let's go the other direction, right?

Let's, let's go from fundraising into sales.

Say

you're a mom, you've stayed home with your kids, you've raised your kids, and they are now in school and you want to go back into the workforce.

But what have you been doing for the last 10 years in addition to raising your kids?

You've volunteered for their schools, you've raised money for the PTA, you've raised money for the local park cleaning service,

all the things that you've done.

You've organized volunteers, you've pitched um people in power right all of those skills those are all skills that you use in sales so say that stay-at-home mom who has been like the head of fundraising for the pta every year for 10 years and has raised tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of dollars she can easily walk into a sales job because she understands how do i research my prospect how do i create a case how do i make the pitch how do i steward the prospect like she understands how to do that because those skills while they're not directly transferable they translate into the the same sort of work that she'll be doing.

And a lot of times, a stay-at-home mom will say, Well, I don't have any work experience, I really can't go back into the workforce, or I have to start the very ground level.

When in fact, she has a ton of skills, she's just not seeing them as a sort of literal transferable way.

She's not connecting the dots, basically.

Correct.

I got that.

Okay, that makes sense.

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So then, how do people then, okay, if you want, like, I'm still on the fact that, like, once you see yourself doing something, it's really hard to unsee it.

Yeah.

So, then, how do you get the confidence then from that to play bigger, to dream bigger, and go after things?

Like, they didn't get the one job from you, right?

But then, what?

Now, what do they do then?

How do they do that?

How do they, what's their, when they call you back because now they've seen themselves in a certain way, what's the next step to kind of move towards that dream or dream a little bit more?

Well, so usually at that point, they have the confidence because they saw themselves and they're like, well, I don't want to stay here anymore, right?

So let's talk about the people who have been told, who haven't, didn't even have the interview.

Like, how do you get the confidence to throw your hat in the ring, right?

Yes.

And especially women, a lot of women, like we are told that we shouldn't be too ambitious, right?

Like, don't be too ambitious.

I don't think ambition is a dirty word.

In fact, I think

so either.

I think ambition is great.

I have no problem with the word.

Ambitious, driven, audacious, bold, all of them.

Yes.

I'm good with them all.

That's amazing.

And I love that.

A lot of women don't.

A lot of women are told to like, you know, hold back, be quiet, right?

Like, don't make a fuss.

So, like, don't stand out.

Don't stand out, right?

Exactly.

Don't threaten anybody.

Don't be too threatening.

Don't be, don't be too competent, right?

All that nonsense.

Yes.

Okay, so how do we do it?

A lot of times it takes having somebody who can see your promise reflect that promise back to you.

So if we find ourselves mentors, we find ourselves champions, if we surround ourselves with people who we aspire to be because we think that they're kind of kicking ass, often once we have gotten to know them over a period of time, they will turn back to us and say, what about you?

When are you going to do this?

And those are those moments that when your champion sees you and really reflects back on you the greatness that they see, it's often hard to see it.

I ran my my first mile of my life when I turned 39 years old, like of my life, ever.

And I'm now training for my sixth marathon.

So really?

Yes.

So how did I get from like never running a mile like gym class zero to like training for a sixth marathon and being on a master's competitive rowing team, gym class hero?

Because it took me six weeks to run that first mile.

At the end of the mile, like huffing and puffing, I was all hopped up in endorphins and I was like, you know, if I string three of of those together, I could do a three, I could do a 5K.

And I say do a 5K, like literally do, not run, but do, like I did a 5K.

But at the end of that 5K, six weeks later, I was like, if I string two of those together, I could do a 10K.

And at the end of the 10K, I was like, well, you know, if I string two of those together and maybe tap on another mile, I could do a half marathon.

And I live in Boston, home of one of the major marathons, so you know where this is going.

So I decide I'm going to sign up for the Boston Marathon.

Like, why not?

I'm going to see if I could do it.

And I go into the very first training session.

And at this point, I had only run 10 miles.

I hadn't even like actually finished the full half marathon yet.

And the coach was there.

And I went up to him and I was like, listen, man, I don't know if I can do this.

Like, I haven't.

I've only run 10 miles.

I'm not sure I've got my first half marathon next week.

Let's see.

And he looked at me with this like Yoda like calm.

And he goes, Laura.

You can do it.

I believe in you and I'm here to help.

And I swear to God, I looked right back at him and I went, I can do it.

You believe in me and you're here to help.

And he was like, yes.

And he literally like turned my shoulders and like sent me on my way.

And just the fact that this man who had trained thousands of charity marathon runners, so like charity, i.e.

slow, right?

Not qualifying, not fast, not experienced, right?

The fact that this man who had done this thousands of times looked at me and was like, I see you and I believe in you.

I was like, oh, okay.

And I tell people all the time that if I have any superpower whatsoever, it's that I can look at somebody and in fairly short order, see what makes them great and reflect that back on them in ways that they can finally see it for the first time ever or believe it enough to act upon it.

And sometimes I really just think all it is is somebody seeing you and being like, I believe in you.

You're going to do this.

And you're like, oh, and it just like erases the self-doubt because somebody who you respect sees something in you.

And if we allow ourselves to see ourselves in the way that our champions see us, just once, it changes everything.

It's like sitting in first class.

I love that.

I think it's so true.

I think that more than anything, we just need to have somebody.

I just said a

whole podcast, but almost, on the idea that it's always, it starts with one person believing in you.

And then the rest kind of takes care of itself.

And, you know, and that's the other thing about burning bridges.

Like, if there are people who are constantly stomping on your dreams and telling you you can't do it, I think those are the ones who've got to go.

Yeah.

Totally true.

Just as much as the ones who see you and believe in you can inspire you.

Like, I've inspired people to lose 200 pounds and run a marathon.

I've inspired people to leave, you know, full-time careers and start their own business.

I've inspired people to run for office, right?

Not because...

I'm special.

It's just because I saw what made them special and I just told them about it.

Like, it wasn't what it was.

But that's amazing amazing that you have, that you do that, though.

A lot of people don't do that.

Going back to one of your points earlier, it's like you're looking at the people around you, right?

Because those people are going to be the most important people because they'll either push you to be the best version of yourself or keep you, hold you down.

Yeah, and I'm just anything in between.

I think anyone who is not actively pushing you to be the best version of yourself is actually holding you down.

Even if they're not actively doing it,

I think it still sucks energy because we're still all performing.

We're still all dancing for everyone else.

And, you know, I learned a long time ago.

Well, I made a promise to myself a long time ago, I should say, never to praise in silence.

Like when I see somebody and they're wearing a pretty scarf, I tell them.

When I see someone and they look like they've gotten fit, like I tell, I don't say, oh, you look like you've lost weight.

I'm like, you look so strong, right?

Like, I really believe that

we are all just these like hurt, shy children who just really want to be noticed and recognized.

Like, I think that they're, I think that there are like a million billion miles between being loved and being truly seen.

Like, a lot of us grew up being loved, right?

We're, if we're lucky.

Totally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, you do your chores, you clean the table, you get good grades.

I love you.

Like, you're a good kid.

But how many of us grew up feeling like we could fly our freak flag, like fully 100% unfurled in the world and still be loved for being that person?

Totally true.

I don't know a lot of people like that.

So I just, just, when I realized that that was the difference between being loved and being seen, I just decided I was going to start seeing people, really seeing them.

And I don't know, this is my, like, this is my like one-woman army.

No, I think it's amazing because you and I have a very similar idea, like, think, we think similarly.

I, I, I'm always that person who does that.

And people always look at me like, why did you have to say that?

I'm like, why not?

Like,

why are you always the person who has to always just point out the bad stuff?

But like, I'll go up to a random stranger or at the gym and be like, you look really great, or I love that sweater, or whatever that is.

And everyone's like, it's so weird.

I'm like, what's weird?

Like, just as easily, you can make someone smile by just saying something out loud that you're thinking.

Why wouldn't you do it?

Why wouldn't you?

And also, you cannot help but be happier when you compliment somebody.

Like, you never like,

you look great in that sweater.

Like, it does.

I know, right?

You can't, like, and you see their face light up and it helps you light up, and that drops a little dopamine hit into your brain.

And, like, it's just like you live longer.

It's just better.

It's just

it's better it's just I agree 100%

okay so let me just say this so the book is called Wonder Hell Why Success Doesn't Feel Like It Should and What to Do About It, Laura Otting.

I mean, Laura Gastner-Odding.

Is Gastor your

maiden name?

Gastner is my maiden name, but I spent four years working in the White House by the time I became Laura Gastner-Audding.

And I just, there's a lot of good connections not to know who the hell I was.

Yeah, 100%.

I think that makes sense.

What did you do in the White House, by the way?

So, have you heard of the AmeriCorps National Service Program?

No, what is it?

Okay, so it's a service program where young people 18 to 24 can do community service in exchange for some college tuition.

And when I was in law school and I heard then-Governor Bill Clinton talking about this idea, I was like, that sounds really smart.

You change your community while you change yourself.

I should drop out of law school because I hate it here.

And that sounds like a great idea.

So I did.

And he ended up in the White House, and so did I.

Get out.

So did you, you didn't finish law school then?

I didn't finish law school.

I was 21 years old when I was working on that campaign.

And yeah.

And I walked into the White House at 12.01 after Inauguration Day.

And it is one of the proudest things I've done in my life.

A million and a half young people have served in that program.

That's amazing.

Were you there?

Are you going to get mad at me for saying this?

Were you there when Monica Lewinsky was there then?

Of course.

Yes.

I mean, yes.

Although I will say this.

We were the same age, but I didn't know her because I was on staff.

Thank you very much.

And she was just an intern.

I say that, but like I was on staff.

Like there is the bottom rung of the ladder and then there's like the step that gets you to the bottom rung of the ladder.

Like I was clinging onto the step on my fingernails making $17,272 a year.

And she was an intern.

So she was like maybe a millimeter beneath me on the ladder.

So but for the grace of God, like I, I probably were, I was probably at parties with her, but yeah, I joke around.

I'm like, of course I didn't know her, but we staff members didn't talk to the internally because we were just a bunch of stuck-up idiots.

Right, right, right.

Oh my God, that's so funny.

So what was your first job after that?

So my first job after that was working in an executive search firm.

That was your first job.

Okay, so you went right into it.

Yeah, I went right into it because I went to my boss who had run the 1992 campaign and his name was

Eli Siegel.

I was like, Eli, I'm ready to get back on the campaign trail, you know, for the 1996 campaign.

And he was like, well, Laura, you're kind of too old to eat cold pizza and get on campaign buses again.

Because by that time, I was like 25, which is dog years in campaign years.

It is?

Yeah, I'm like 107.

And he was like, Ann, you're not really old enough to be the domestic policy advisor.

So maybe go work for my friend Arnie Miller.

He runs the biggest search firm in the world that does specifically mission-driven type leadership work.

You'll hide out in a non-profit job for four years and you'll come back and do something big on the Gore campaign.

And I was like, awesome.

That sounds like a good plan.

Two days later, I'm sitting down with Arnie at the coffee shop of the Mayflower Hotel right across the street from the White House.

And I'm five minutes into the conversation with Arnie and I was like, you work in Boston.

The guy I'm dating right now, who I think is the one, is about to move to Boston.

I should come work for you.

And he's like, you should come work for me.

So I became a headhunter.

That's how it happened, huh?

You were so married to him?

Yeah, I was like, number one, what do you do?

Like, I'll come work for you.

What do you do?

Number two, I've just celebrated my 25th anniversary with that guy.

So, you know,

it worked.

Oh, my God.

That is so nice.

Yes, yes.

That's such a good story.

But, you know, here's the thing.

Like, there are so many people who tell their path.

Like, I did this and then I did this and then I did this as if it's this like strategic thing.

Nobody has a strategic plan.

Like, nobody decides when they're 22 exactly what their whole path is going to look like.

And then it works that way perfectly.

So I always, like, I could tell the story.

Like, well, I went to the White House and then, as I was in the White House, I thought, what could I do with this Rolodex of amazing people and the mission that I want to serve in the world?

I could connect to them.

Like, I could, I could tell the story in like this bullshit, strategic way.

But I feel like it does a disservice to anybody, which is everybody, right, listening, who's like, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know what my plan is.

Like, no, there is.

You like, you, it's like, it's like you play a game of war.

Like, you throw all the cards in the air and then you like pick them up as fast as you can.

Like, you know, like, we're all

going

and you don't know what card's coming up next you know what i mean so like it doesn't even i totally agree you and i think very similarly laura oh wait it's not war war is like when you do one card at a time i mean like 52 pickup right oh 50 oh but also war because when you play war it's you're just taking the you don't know what's underneath it's just random who had there's no strategy to war totally a game of chance it's all a game of like who had the better cards like here's my entire my entire strategy is do interesting things with interesting people and interesting opportunities arise.

100%.

That's my entire life strategy.

I love it.

Go by all my books or just listen to that one strategy.

No, but that's exactly, that is true, though.

That is, and then that is very refreshing.

The book is called Wonder Hell, though, guys.

Bye.

It is a good book.

And so is Limitless.

I thought that was very good.

Thank you.

Yo, no, you're very welcome.

Well, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Where can people find more about you?

Yeah.

So as you've said, my name is Laura Gassner-Adding.

All my good friends call me L-G-O.

So I'm on all the socials at Hey-L-G-O, H-E-Y-L-G-O.

I mean, everywhere from Peloton to Spotify, Instagram, like LinkedIn, you name it.

I'm hey, L-G-O.

Really?

Okay.

Yeah, really.

I love that.

Okay.

And, you know, brand,

brand identity, I guess.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

And lauragastnerauding.com is my website.

Well, thank you again for being on the podcast.

I appreciate it.

You're a great person.

Thank you for having me.

No, absolutely.

I'm sorry we didn't get to do this in person, but maybe I'll see you at the Taylor Swift concert.

I know.

Well, we'll have to be in touch.

Yes, definitely give me a

figure out to wear still.

It's like a punch.

I know.

Well, wear a pair of those Alice Olivia pants of one color or another.

That's what I would do if I were you.

Yeah.

Just wear all like one rainbow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, they're very flattering, I told you.

So I think you should wear them.

Yeah.

But thank you again, and I will hopefully meet you in person soon.

Would love that.

Thanks so much.

Okay.

Bye.

Bye-bye.