Episode 227: Dr. Will Cole: How to Heal Shame-flammation

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

Today we have Will Cole on the podcast, who is a friend of mine and also a wonderful functional medicine doctor and the first person to start telemedicine, telehealth, 13 years ago.

Functional medicine telehealth clinic, yeah.

Before anybody else.

And he now has his second book out called Gut Feelings.

His first book was a New York Times bestseller.

This is actually my fourth book.

What?

My second with Goot Press.

Yeah, I go way back.

Holy moly.

Okay, I thought this was your second book.

That's before we knew each other.

That's true.

Okay, what were the first two?

This is like before Jennifer's life.

It's like a different era.

A totally different era.

That's why I have no idea.

And probably you don't either.

No, I'm kidding.

Keto Tarian.

Actually, I think to this date sold the most.

Keto Tarian was my first book.

And the second is The Inflammation spectrum, which people love that book.

Third was intuitive fasting and now gut feelings is out of all my book babies, this is my favorite one.

Really?

Yeah.

So these are these two, the last two were on group Goot Press.

Who were the other ones on?

Still under Penguin Random House.

Okay.

But under Avery.

Avery, so you know how the book world works.

So it's like these imprints within imprints, but there's Penguin Random House and then Avery.

Now I'm with Penguin Random House, Rodale, Goop Press.

Okay, so you had, because I thought the last book before Gut Feelings, that was a New York Times bestseller.

Yes, it was.

So the two prior, were those also?

They were not.

They were all the other ones, like the U.S., like U.S.

USA Today.

Today, and Wall Street,

Canada.

I did big in Canada.

I'm Canadian.

I like that.

Okay, yeah.

But it didn't hit the list.

But you know how those things work too, because it actually sold more than the book that made the Times list.

Isn't that crazy how that works?

That's literally a whole other podcast.

Yes.

I mean, we can sit here.

It's curated.

Let's just say it's lovingly curated.

Lovingly?

I wouldn't use that word, but okay, we'll use that adjective because you're much more PC than I am.

Subjectively curated.

Subjectively curated.

I love that.

Actually, I love this book, this new one, because

it was very much tied with like, obviously, emotions and how your emotions.

I was like very interested in understanding and learning like your nervous system with your gut health, your mood, your depression, with how that affects you.

But you went like in the weeds a little bit more than the topical that I've seen other people talk about.

Like we all hear like, you know, your, your gut is your second brain, or we all hear that stress can be very harmful for your health.

And then, but what I like is like you go from emotion to emotion, which I thought was so interesting and I really enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Well, I mean, you're right about that.

The conversations around the gut and the brain, I've been talking about it for 13 years.

So there would be no reason for me to write a book about that because I've written hundreds of articles about that.

But I really wanted to get deep, like I've never done before in a sort of literary way, to talk about the things that I see play out in people's lives as far as my patients are concerned and delving into these complex issues of chronic stress and trauma and intergenerational trauma.

These are big things.

Totally.

But the science is just so compelling of how these things can literally be stored in our cells, dysregulating our nervous system, raising inflammation levels, impacting hormones.

I look at labs all day long.

So I see it play out in both the gut and the feeling side of it, the physical and then this mental, emotional, spiritual component of it.

It's a both end conversation when you're talking about mental health issues and when you're talking about autoimmune issues.

And those are my people, people that are looking to reclaim their health from these things that are really keeping them down.

And it's also the whole trauma piece of it too, right?

Like how that really does impact your health.

And what's interesting, like you talk about this a little bit, well, a lot in your book, that regular medicine does not even like touch on this at all.

Yeah.

I mean, and you think after so many years and like, and now like the evolution of where we are in the health space, that it would kind of take a piece of it.

Why is it, has it not at all been, like, it's never even broached if you go to a regular MD?

Well, I think in many ways, when you're looking at chronic health problems, it's really a chronic health problem management issue, right?

Because it's not just about the trauma piece, it's about really all the underlying components that researchers are looking as to what's even triggering all of these problems.

Like, why do we have this epidemic of autoimmune issues and mental health issues?

Why?

And they're not really, researchers are looking at it, but the trickle-down effect of when it hits sort of the mainstream, this is a conversation I'm having with my PCP, my GP, my endocrinologist, my rheumatologist.

It just takes so long and there's so much red tape.

The problem is mainstream medicine in many ways is fragmented.

It's true.

It's the sort of go from specialist to specialist instead of realizing the body's interconnected.

So it's a fragmented system that treats the body fragmented.

And that's the problem.

A lot of people fall through the cracks of that.

I mean, most of my patients, when they meet me, they're extremely compliant people.

They're well-read, they're erudite, and they're compliant, meaning they want to do what their doctor is telling them to do.

Right.

And they are doing and have done it, but they're spinning their wheels because they aren't seeing the answers.

So some people certainly, you know, and I know both know, there are people that are helped by the system.

There's nothing, I'm not making broad sweeping statements.

Some people are helped, but then you have to look at the countless of people that are, maybe.

it's a piece of their puzzle, but it's still not getting them to optimal wellness.

Maybe it's managing some symptoms, or as I hear oftentimes from people, like taking the edge off of some of their symptoms, whether you know autoimmune issues or mental health issues, but it's not dealing with the breadth of things that are underneath the ocean, to use that, you know, tip of the iceberg analogy.

Yeah, yeah, they're just scraping the surface.

Well, what I'm always curious, like, when do you know, like, as a patient, as a person, when it is something that's much more

traumatic, like something that you're dealing with emotionally, traumatically, or whatever, versus if it's actually just because it is this thing.

Like, for example, okay, I have eczema, right?

How do I know if it's just because I was born with a bad skin issue and that's what it is versus like there's something deep-seated that I don't even know or maybe I'm dealing with something that I'm not even aware of that's causing this root, the root cause of it.

Yeah.

So it's, I mean, in my clinical world, it starts with a health history and really getting deep.

And we're talking about a very comprehensive, granular, in-depth questioning and learning and this sort of like holding space for all of these sort of intricate variables that maybe seem inconsequential to the person.

Right.

But for us, these are clues or clinical pearls as to things we need to be investigating.

And then labs, I think, would be illuminating too.

But some of the questionnaires that we ask, if you're thinking about, okay, is it physiological or is it mental, emotional, spiritual?

And typically it's going to be a confluence of both.

Say the difference because for people who don't know.

Sure.

So physical, I mean, and the book is really an exploration of this bi-directional relationship between gut and feelings or the physical and the mental, emotional, spiritual.

So when I say physiological, some examples of that are going to be underlying gut problems or

dysbiosis or leaky gut syndrome or some sort of fungal overgrowth.

That's an example.

Or a nutrient deficiency would be another example.

Or a hormonal imbalance would be another example.

Or some sort of chronic infection.

We see a lot of mold toxicity, mycotoxins, and chronic Lyme disease.

Those are physiological things that will raise inflammation levels in the body, which will impact many things, depending on who you're talking to.

For people that are going through anxiety and depression, brain fog, fatigue, neurological issues,

all of those things I just mentioned are associated in the research with triggering neuroinflammation.

Right.

And for people with autoimmune issues, it's somewhere else.

If it's autoimmune thyroid issues, it's against the thyroid, or if it's just some general metabolic issues, like I have trouble losing weight, all of those things I mentioned can impact blood sugar and your insulin resistance, which will make it really difficult to lose weight and give you a lot of blood blood sugar metabolism problems.

That's just the physiological stuff or the gut stuff that I talk about in the book.

The feeling stuff like chronic stress, shame, trauma, those things

are

just as much influencing inflammation levels in all of those areas.

So it's, again, this both and conversation around these.

you know, I use

the analogy of these

junk foods for the soul in some ways, like these junk foods foods that are metaphysical

that are impacting the physical quite profoundly.

So how do you know that?

It's getting to know somebody.

And then for the person that's listening to this, getting to know yourself, getting inquisitive, and start to delving into these deeper layers that I teach about in the book.

And in lieu of me being there, like if I'm not your functional medicine doctor, that's why I wrote the book, is for you to learn a functional medicine approach to say, how, like, is trauma a piece of my puzzle?

Is an underlying gut problem a piece of my puzzle?

Is it a bit of both?

And then they can start to learn and lean into these protocols that I've seen really be effective to for people to start to untangle these quite entangled things.

Well, you know, you just said it right here.

I wanted to ask you about shame because you just mentioned it.

Like, shame, you said, is the most damaging emotion in the world and it can cause so many like health problems.

Yeah.

And like, you never even think of it, you can think of these other things, but so can you say two things?

So, what usually correlates with shame is there like certain illnesses or health issues that usually you feel that shame is like the root cause so people can say oh maybe I'm feeling this way because you know what I mean to kind of for themselves to kind of not self-diagnose but have more understanding yeah well I think shame is a common emotion that is associated with things like trauma and a common emotion that's associated with stress.

Like I

know a lot of patients that are stressed out with work and their family and they feel like they're just not good enough, like they don't have the bandwidth to do the things they want to do and they feel like a failure.

And then there's a lot of health-related shame, like shame around people's bodies, about around food.

So what I call in the book shameflammation is really sort of the confluence of the chronic stress and trauma piece of how it's playing out in people's lives.

And they feel varying degrees of shame because of the sort of, it's a sympathetic, it's the aspect of the autonomic nervous system being overactive for too long.

That sympathetic fight-or-flight, stressed, inflamed state is just always going in perpetuity to varying degrees for people.

That's the problem.

So, how people can know about it, it's just, I think, being more mindful and looking and how you feel.

I think some people just are on autopilot so much of their life, they know their health could be better, or they know their health is really in the gutter, but they don't, they're always just our culture, so in distraction, so embedded in our culture, and it's like designed that way today, right?

But, and on top of that, people just live busy lives and they

months turn into years, and years turn into decades for some people of just like, dang, I should have dealt with this a long time ago, but I see it snowballing.

And they very to varying degrees, people start to have these wake-up calls to know they have to do something different to see something different.

But shame is an integral part to many people's health puzzle and to dealing with with that.

So like the practices of self-compassion that I talk about in the book are just so powerful to modulate the nervous system and the immune system, i.e.

lowering inflammation, but it's not sexy so much, right?

Yeah.

It's not.

But self-compassion is sexy.

That's what I'm trying to do with this book.

I'm trying to rebrand self-compassion.

To make it sexy.

Yes, that's right.

I love it.

Okay, so that, so that, so that's the, what is the definition of shameflation?

Shameflation is that shameflammation.

Shameflamation.

I'm amalgamating shame and inflammation.

And inflammation together.

But you're not the only person when they first see that made-up word that I made up.

What does this even mean?

I have to read it like a hundred times.

I'm like, shame, I haven't written down shameflation, but how do you say it?

Shameflation?

Shame, flammation.

Shameflammation.

Okay, that's hilarious because it's a great name, though.

So that is basically what is really a lot of times sabotaging.

our overall health, right?

Yeah, it's the feeling side of that gut feeling puzzle.

So it's not the only one, but it's that if you're talking about that bi-directional relationship, that's going to be a major part, that shameflammation, meaning that mental, emotional, spiritual component.

How are things like that, like stress, shame, and trauma impacting my physical health?

And the research is very clear that these mental, emotional, spiritual things that aren't serving us are literally stored in our cells.

Our body, it's made up of trillions of cells, is a cellular library.

It's keeping all of the thoughts and the words and emotions and trauma accumulated over time.

And in some people, it's kind of, they've hit that tipping point where it's expressing itself in the form of anxiety and depression and hype.

autoimmune issues or metabolic issues.

So it's really vast as far as its implication and why people should care about this.

I mean, even if you think about the hormonal problems that people see, oftentimes it's that what I call shameflammation, that mental, emotional, spiritual component that is contributing to at the very least, if not completely causing it for many people.

So, then, how do people get better, really?

Like, if they still are dealing with those feelings, right?

Even if they come see it, go see you or whatever, you do all these tests on them, how do people even heal those things without, like, that's a lot of like, is that a lot of therapy?

Like, is it what, how do people get better?

Yeah, if this is the root cause, yeah, and it's not just taking a pill or not just doing X, Y, and Z.

Yeah.

And I love that you said Z.

I love Canadians.

I know.

It came out.

Whoops.

Don't take it back.

I will never.

Don't you worry.

Zed, Zed, Zed.

Don't let LA take the Canadian out of you.

You can't take, you could take the small town,

small town girl.

You could take the girl out of the small town, but not the small town out of the girl.

Speaking to a small town guy who still lives in the small town.

Exactly.

That's why I like you so much.

That's right.

Small town people have this affinity.

Totally.

It's like, I see you.

That's right.

So what do people do?

It's big.

It's a big, complex thing, but that's really what I'm delving into in the book because there's a protocol in the book that really goes, it spans over 21 days.

By the way, it's a 21-day gut feeling plan.

Gut feeling plan to teach people.

Every day

what's a practice because it's not, as I say in the book, this is not, if you're talking about trauma you're not going to heal all trauma in 21 days but what I want you to do is to start to learn what are the most well researched the most effective in my experience seeing patients for the past 13 years ways to start to reconnect that gut feeling connection start to regulate the nervous system start to lower inflammation levels effectively.

So these are just basically 42 of my favorite tools that I put in patients protocols.

21 gut action items and 21 feeling action items.

So on the gut stuff, it could be like I talk about a GAPS protocol in the book, which is an acronym.

It stands for gut and psychology syndrome or gut and physiology syndrome, either one.

And it's a way to use food, sort of nourish the gut, the second brain, calm inflammation levels and support that vagus nerve, which innervates the gut and the brain.

And a feeling action item could be, I talk about breath work and the power of different breath work techniques.

and you know one solomon and i actually did it the other day together my son's here in the studio

on his phone he could he's like bored as hell already

i don't blame him he's 16 he's listening to this probably for the 400th time no every comp this is a completely different conversation by the way it's like i'm i'm you're the one of the best i've told you this the other times we've talked you're one of the best interviewers that I've ever been on.

Really?

I told you that last year.

You did sell me that.

That's so nice.

Why is that?

I don't know.

know because you have everybody and their mom has a podcast these days true and it doesn't mean they're talented they may have a following but it's not necessarily uh it would never get picked up on like if if it wasn't an actual business exactly like but yours could and i think that there's an art to it and a skill set to it that not everybody has i love you for that will we're gonna cut that into a teaser will is gonna put it on his social media page we're gonna send it into every network.

That's fair.

No, I'm joking.

That was so nice.

I appreciate you saying that.

It actually means a lot because I agree.

Like everyone and their mom and their dog and their cousin now thinks, well, podcasts are hot.

Let me just try it out and do one.

And they're like, they don't research.

They don't prepare.

They don't know how to even have a conversation.

No, that's true.

We show up to some.

I'm like, what the heck?

It's barely.

I mean, even with, I'm actually offended if I go somewhere and they're like, so, so what's your, like, tell me about your book.

It's like, are you serious?

You didn't even like take, like, you didn't respect me even that much just to read the first page or even like the, you know, whatever it is.

Like, I find that to be so insulting.

But anyway, that's the majority of people, right?

And hate to say it.

So the fact that like you recognize that, it makes me very happy.

Thank you.

It is noticed for sure.

Thank you.

But yeah, I mean, so it's.

It's these these gut and the feeling action items are just oh, yeah, but we're

back to that

failed.

Sorry, everybody.

So I don't know.

It could look like breath work.

That's where I lost my train of thought.

You need to meditate next time.

We did a holotropic breath work, him and I, with this group.

And

it's a great way to sort of metabolize stored stress and say what it is.

It is a sort of, I would call it a more advanced breath work than Solomon did it too.

You did it too?

Okay, cool.

Yeah, he meditates as a general rule.

This is a 16-year-old going on 34, but

he really is.

Pretty much.

And so it's a great way to strengthen the vagus nerve, which is again the largest cranial nerve in the body.

And it's really one of the main governors or components to the parasympathetic aspect of our nervous system.

Well, tell people, because I know you say it like very everyone knows, and I understand this, but for people who are listening, because you talk about this a lot in the book, the vagus, you call it even the vagal tonal vagal tone yeah yeah explain all this and how it all connects together so breath work and just like basically all 42 of these tools that I talk about in the book are all meant to support the parasympathetic nervous system and part of that is improving vagal tone so the vagus nerve longest cranial nerve in the body it translates comes from the word which translates to wandering or wanderer so sort of this long nerve that's connecting the gut and the brain and we mentioned mentioned this, like we're assuming that people know, but like the gut and brain are formed from the same fetal tissue.

So when babies are growing in their mother's womb, they're formed from that same fetal tissue, and they're linked for the rest of our life through what's known as the gut-brain axis in the research.

Well, the gut-brain axis is in part what they're talking about there is the vagus nerve.

Right, okay.

So most people, because of...

When you're talking about the autonomic nervous system, and I mentioned the parasympathetic, vagus nerve, rest, digest, hormone balance, calm.

The sympathetic, the fight-or-flight stressed aspect of the autonomic nervous system is overactive, i.e., inflammation, mental health issues, autoimmune issues.

So, we have this sort of seesaw effect of the autonomic nervous system.

Most people are overactive in the sympathetic and underactive in the parasympathetic.

So, what we're trying to do is regulate the nervous system or modulate the nervous system in a way where both can operate optimally.

You don't have a hypervigilance in sympathetic, and you don't have sort of a lack of any resilience in the parasympathetic.

So that's what when I say poor vagal tone, that's associated in the research to just about every chronic health problem.

Autoimmune issues, mental health issues,

digestive problems.

Very overactive in the sympathetic area.

Now you're saying in your four, like breath work, the come we're going to talk, the one you just mentioned that you did with your son, breath work, stuff like another thing, somatic, you have a lot of somatic

practices in there that help

even out basically, equalize the sympathetic and the parasympathetic.

Is that basically

like, yes, it's a nervous system workout in

many ways.

It's like a nervous system and vagal nerve workout.

So that's really interesting because when you said that about the sympathetic overactive, like all those things, I feel like you described me and probably a lot of people who are listening.

Now, and I always say, oh, I hate breath work.

I hate meditation.

I'm not good at it I don't want to do it and so I don't and so that's probably why then you go you go more all in on the things that you're good at which are much more again intense and hardcore and you know high intense training but that's just making it worse right because you're not balancing it yeah it can and that's why the yin and the yang they're both important super important there and it's you don't want to forget the other and it is like it is not as especially in our culture where it's so exterior in that way right?

It's the things you notice.

It notices you change the way you look and you can look better.

And you sweat.

You can sweat.

Exactly.

And these sort of things that are, like, I call them acts of stillness, they're not as sexy in our culture.

Again, I'm trying to rebrand it.

You're going to make it sexy again.

But like, breath work is a great way to work out your vagus nerve, work out your nervous system, work out your autonomic nervous system, to start to, and not just work it out, but actually cathartically metabolize and clear out things that are stored in your cells, like trauma and your life, but even your ancestors' life, like that you're passed down through generations.

So, you just said that you guys did a special kind of breath work.

What was that called?

Holotropic.

Okay, what is that?

Holotropic, or it's a type of breath work.

I talk about it in the book.

It's the advanced breath work section, where it's the page I skipped through.

You're like,

and new.

Yes, told you, not liking this part right there.

So, it is just a, I would say, you breathe the way that we have done it.

You breathe through your mouth and

from your mouth and out of your mouth.

You're not really doing any nasal breathing, which has its place.

I mean, right, we do a lot of like mouth taping for patients to like get their proper sleep at night and not.

Do you believe in that, by the way?

Oh, absolutely.

Really?

Okay.

Any patient that has...

dysregulated sleep-wake cycle, looking at cortisol and melatonin on labs, mouth taping can be a great way to optimize sleep.

And if somebody's waking up lethargic, or even I see a lot of people that they say, oh, I sleep fine, but you look at their aura ring or the whoop band or their labs, and it's like not good.

Their REM and their deep sleep are just in the gutter.

And mouth taping can be a game changer, amongst many other things.

Do you do that?

I don't, but my sleep scores are pretty good.

We're in competition normally, Solomon and I, but

he's normally better than me.

Yeah, well, he's also 16 years old.

Yeah.

And he has less things on his plate.

Exactly.

You think?

Really?

A 16-year-old?

Just slightly.

Although you put him to work.

He's marked out.

I was going to say.

He works for him.

He runs his social media or does something.

I don't know.

He's a 16-year-old employee of yours.

Yeah, he does.

He's part-time.

He's an intern.

He's an intern.

Okay.

I like that.

So basically, it's, I'll tell you, the history around holotropic breath work,

it was used as an alternative to elicit similar experiences as psychedelics.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So you can have a very similar experience from holotropic breath work as you can from psychedelics.

And just with like with psychedelics,

because of the oxygen and the gases of your, that you're kind of modulating with your breath to impact certain centers of the brain and the nervous system to elicit this sort of ecstatic experience or psychedelic experience.

But just like with psychedelics, you can dose differently to you.

People are micro-dosing psychedelics.

You don't get a full trip.

You can do the same with breath work.

You can slow it down.

The breaks are breathing through your nose.

It kind of slows it down.

So you can self-paste this for yourself, and not everybody has to have the same experience because there's many types of breath work.

Holotropic is just one path for people to do.

But what makes it more, not seen, what makes it more advanced?

Because you're breathing from your mouth.

Because you're having more of a, I would say, a somatic experience.

So So let me ask you something, because I've been to a couple of these retreats and things where they are, you know, they put you in this room to do breath work.

And, you know, to your point, a lot of these people are having like these crazy like meltdowns or crying and having these like psychedelic type of reactions.

And I'm literally sitting there like looking around.

nothing.

And it's like, it's embarrassing.

I'm like, my eyes are open.

Everyone's eyes are closed.

I'm looking to see who's doing what.

Like, what happens for people?

I'm asking for a friend, for those people who cannot shut their brain and like their ability to even get to a place where they can even try these things.

Like these type A personalities.

Yeah.

You know, like a friend of mine,

what do they do?

Well, tell your friend.

I would say that the reality is none of us

are good, really good at it.

Some of us.

You seem like you're pretty good.

No, I'm not.

Some of us are better than others but i think we're all really sucky at it which is why we need to do it and

we are

that's why they call it a practice right right and it's just like it's like if we went to the gym and i went to the gym one time and i'm like i'm not good at it i've never been to the gym before and i'm like the gym's not for me It's like, well, no, it's like, I've just suck at working out and I need, I have some weak biceps and I need to strengthen it.

And that's what we're doing with breath work and meditation is strengthening that mindfulness muscle.

And the people that typically say that, which I would say, you know, your friend is saying that right now, typically are the ones that need to do it the most.

100%.

I totally agree with it.

And that's why my friend tries it all the time, goes to these things and tries meditation and tries all these other practices, like the breath work that you're mentioning, and eyes wide open, not able to even like concentrate for three seconds enough to even like do it, you know, for a time where they can get potentially even a little better.

And here's the deal with this is that our mind, that sort of perfectionist, like type A mind that you mentioned that we all have to varying degrees, it's that's, we see that as failure or I'm not doing it right.

That's shame.

Right, that's shame.

But really realize that we can actually use that distraction thoughts as a meditation too.

And like the analogy that's used is like seeing and ultimately realizing that we aren't our thoughts and emotions.

We are the observing presence of them.

And you start to be that

awareness around the thoughts and see them passing by.

Like the analogy that I use in the book that many meditation speakers talk about is like seeing your thoughts as clouds that pass by and see yourself and realize, oh, wow, I'm this vast sky, not the clouds.

Then you have a bit of a humor and lightness and grace to the whole process.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And realize, okay, this is just where I'm at right now.

And it's going to be sort of these rapid, rapid torrent of thoughts as we are beginners in these practices, but then can start to strengthen that resilience around meditation.

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So what other practices you talk about, the 42 that people can do in the 21-day plan to help heal themselves.

Yeah.

So

on the feeling stuff, if we're talking about that, different meditation, like beyond breath work, like body scans and present moment awareness and mindfulness meditations, mantra meditations, like loving kindness meditations.

Do you believe in the mantras?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, that's, I don't want to say believe, but I think there's some compelling science and I think it could be a good entry point for people that it resonates with.

So when I talk about these 42 things, I'm not saying everybody has to do these 42 things all the time.

That's not it.

But I want you to explore and experiment because again, I'm not there as your functional medicine doctor.

I mean, many of my patients will read the book too.

Hopefully all of them will.

But ultimately, it's going to be for the person, the reader, to say what resonates with me.

What really like, oh yeah, I'm going to try that.

And when...

to that meditation's not for me sort of thing that your friend keeps saying.

Yeah, I can't see.

She's mine.

I mean, you know what?

We need to talk to her.

I know.

Protocol you.

I'm going to set up a contel, telehealth control.

But the reality is that maybe that type of meditation isn't for you, right?

Maybe it's like not resonating with you.

Like the right, the right, the best type of meditation is the one that you can stay consistent with and you are excited about or at least able to

do the most.

Well, you say it in the book, which I, what I always say too, which is why I laughed, is that like if you hate doing something, then don't do it.

Like do something different, you know what I mean?

Like that's also a source of like a lot of angst and not good on the emotional side, right?

When you're forcing yourself to like do something because you think you should all the time is pretty much like bad for your health overall.

Stressing about meditation, stressing about healthy foods isn't good for your health.

That's all shameflammation that I'm trying to like undo

for you.

Well, you know, that's, you know, it's funny because even like we were saying earlier about the sleep trackers with like aura and whoop and all these things like i feel and tell me what you think that with like all what's happening with technology like we're like gamifying all these things for our health to like biohack ourselves to live to 180.

now isn't isn't that in itself just super stressful For the average person, yes, it is.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly.

For many of our patients, we have them do it for specific periods of time.

Right.

If they have a health issue.

So we're not just looking for problems just to like find them or like obsess about something just for the sake of it.

We are, the context is let's learn and get some data points for you and put it in context with how you're feeling.

And can we make action steps as far as your protocol

and then drop it?

Like at a certain point, we're optimizing things if we're doing our job or if the person that's reading the book, if these things are working, then at a certain point, you can simplify your life.

And I think the bandwidth for most people, they don't want to have to keep looking at all these data points and i do feel like the data points at some point in the earlier and in their journey or when they do need to check in on themselves

when you get that feedback and know when i oh when i feel like this my numbers tend to be like this then it becomes intuitive and mindful so i would almost use those biohacking like tracking things

just like you would at maybe a diet tracking app for some time or analytics a little bit analytics check in

and then drop it if you're truly like a biohacker and some people just really get excited about it and it's not a source of stress or shame at all, then keep doing it.

But I think for the average consumer out there, it's something to check in, but I'll not necessarily have to use all the time.

So, meditations, some of the other tools.

I'll talk about Shinrin Yoku, which is forest bathing, the research out of.

Talk about the forest bathing.

I have that as a note.

Like, ask him about forest bathing.

No, it's not taking a bath out in the forest.

uh that's what i was like kind of like what is this thing yeah how weird is this guy gonna be yes but exactly yeah but it's a japanese translation uh that translates literally into forest bathing which i think is a beautiful description of what they're trying to like what they're saying in the original Japanese is it's using nature immersively as a meditation and using nature as a medicine.

So therapeutically, it's going to be supporting that parasympathetic aspect of the nervous system.

So it's multifactorial because you're taking it in,

it's a sensorial experience.

So taking nature in with your eyesight and the sounds and the stillness of it all, but also the smell of it all, like the essential oils from nature.

So what do you do?

Give me an example.

Tell people what it is, really.

So you walk very slowly within nature and you just take it in.

It's very simple.

So it's like if you may only get a few feet within a period of 20, 30 minutes, but it's just taking it in, looking and observing.

So instead of it being about the destination, it's about the whole process of it.

And it's slowly going through that process.

You could even sit.

in it.

You don't even need to move.

You could just sit and just taking it in.

What our ancestors would just call life, we now have a term for it and randomized controlled trials for it.

But now we know the exciting mechanisms of it.

Like these essential oils have been shown to lower inflammation and boost mood and regulate our nervous system.

And there was this one study that I talked about in the book where these kids, it was a group of kids that did it in this study that the study was looking at kids in forest bathing and how it impacted their health.

And the participants in the study actually improve their microbiome because they're breathing in nature's microbiome, which is just so profound.

Again, this is where 95% of serotonin is made.

50% of dopamine is made in the gut.

So the gut is the second brain.

So we're just beginning to understand the mechanisms of how we all intuitively know, yeah, getting out in nature, creating some stillness in your life is good for health.

But how?

Now we know these essential oils and

the actual sort of

science of nature is really beneficial to our health.

What also can you include in forest bathing then getting the, you know, a big one is going outside for the first 10 minutes and getting some 10 minutes of sunlight, vitamin D.

Another one is like grounding, putting your your feet on

grass, whatever.

Are those, would that be considered forest bathing?

It would be.

I wouldn't, I don't think the researchers around forest bathing would call it forest bathing, but in a way, you really are tapping into the same mechanisms.

Yeah, because it's, yeah, it's really censored around the same thing.

I don't think that's how the researchers were doing it in the specific studies, but yes, any green space you can get, any time you can get out.

So if you just call it grounding and you're not really going through nature, just in your backyard, it's still a very, very effective tool to literally

modulate your nervous system in a positive way.

Okay, so can you tell me a few of the biggest health issues, gut issues that people come to you for?

The three top, like top three.

So, I mean, leaky gut syndrome is ubiquitous.

It means to varying degrees.

It's really a common thing, but not a normal thing within the modern human experience.

Well, what are the symptoms?

Like, maybe someone has it and they don't even know it's called.

And most people don't even know because you don't necessarily have to have extreme digestive symptoms to have underlying gut components to it.

So they may be going to the bathroom just fine, but it's the systemic inflammatory component that's impacting it.

Got it.

So mental health issues, if you look at the epidemic of what's going on there, anxiety, depression, depression is the leading cause of disability worldwide.

I know.

I think 40 million Americans have anxiety.

And that's just the diagnosable ones, let alone the spectrum of mental health issues that we face as a society of this sort of background anxiety, this sort of low-grade, wired, and tired feeling that many people have.

These are in part inflammatory, if not exclusively inflammatory for most people.

And this isn't just my opinion of it.

This is very well researched.

It's called the cytokine model of cognitive function.

Cytokines are pro-inflammatory cells.

So it's

researchers looking at how does inflammation impact how my brain works?

Well, most of the inflammation, 75% of it, is made in the gut and stored in the gut.

And I mentioned earlier how things like serotonin and dopamine are made in the gut, stored in the gut too, of which many antidepressants work upon, and theoretically, serotonin, which is, you know, a different conversation, but flimsy science at best, anyways, because it's really the inflammation, in my opinion, and what most of us that are looking at the research is pointing to.

It's it's really inflammation that is causing any dysregulation of neurotransmitters.

And that's really the thing that we're trying to optimize for people.

So, does that mean depression?

If you're depressed, does that cause inflammation or inflammation causes depression?

It's both for people, right?

But and that's sort of the bi-directional aspect of it, right?

So, it's first and foremost, it's a causation of it for many people, meaning it's there's underlying gut components like bacterial imbalances.

That for one study that I mentioned in the book, that lower levels of these beneficial lactobacillus and bifidobacteria and bacteria are causing anxiety and depression because of how they are producing metabolites that crosstalk with the brain and produce optimal brain function and mood.

So inflammation, we know, causes anxiety and depression, and I would say brain fog and fatigue for most people.

It's multifactorial, right?

There are other components to it, like situational issues as well.

But for many people, the physiological component of what the commonality is is chronic inflammation.

Right.

But to your point, when people then feel depressed, that creates a bigger cascade.

It becomes this negative feedback loop because then they're stressed and depressed about not feeling well.

And it's like this big vicious cycle

that we need to break, right?

And so, and you talk, you say this in the book, and this is something that I know, but I think it's very important to mention, that exercise

has been shown over time, and this is not just flimsy science,

way better than any antidepressant on the market, bar none, for helping lowering all that stuff, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And like, these are something that we can do on our own without going on medications.

Okay, so name a couple other ones.

So leaky gut.

Oh, yeah.

So leaky gut syndrome, which we can quantify in labs.

You can measure the protein called zonulin and occludin, which are the proteins that govern your gut lining permeability.

So through a blood test, stool test, we can quantify these things.

SIBO would be another major major one that we see clinically.

I hear everyone talking about that lately.

I've never heard it in my life until like six months, a year ago.

Yeah, we've been talking about it for 13 plus years in functional medicine.

But I think to your point, I'm actually in some ways happy about it like becoming more and more mainstream and people aware of it because it's not a new thing.

I think it's happening more and more because I think digestive problems, gut health problems, i.e.

gut microbiome problems because of the damage that we're having to all the bacteria in our gut.

That's a problem.

So it's a lack of homeostasis in the microbiome.

So we have a lot of opportunistic or even normal bacteria sometimes growing where it shouldn't be growing into the small intestines, which is what SIBO is actually described as.

It's not necessarily any opportunistic or pathogenic bacteria.

It's quote-unquote good bacteria growing where it shouldn't be growing.

So what are symptoms of that and how does that even happen?

SIBO is the underlying cause of most IBS cases.

Okay.

At least a big chunk of them.

I think it's 40 to 60 percent.

Oh, wow.

So it's a vast majority of people that have irritable bowel syndrome, the underlying cause of that is SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

So it's kind of like weeds overgrowing in this gut garden where you, there's nothing wrong with the weeds, they're part of nature, but you don't want them overgrowing and taking over the garden.

And that's the analogy that's used with SIBO.

So it's described, I mean, it could just look like IBS.

It's also an underlying cause for many people's acid reflux, indigestion, GERD.

It's also one of the leading causes of people, I mean, it's associated with different autoimmune issues, SIBO is.

It doesn't necessarily mean you have an autoimmune condition.

It's just saying that it is...

a lot of people with autoimmune conditions have SIBO because again, 75% of the immune system is in the gut.

And some researchers are even postulating that SIBO may have an autoimmune component in and of itself.

Like, could SIBO be an actual GI inflammatory problem that's that's actually an autoimmune condition in and of itself?

That's sort of early stuff.

But I have no, I mean, we know very clear that if nothing else, it's associated with many different autoimmune issues.

But it could look like someone may not even identify as having, you know, IBS, but it could be uncomfortable bloating.

That's a very common one.

Women will say, I feel nine months pregnant, but I'm not even pregnant.

Right.

Right.

It could be from SIBO.

That could be from SIBO.

And most most of the time, it is.

Not from leaky gut.

Well, here's the thing: is that you can have leaky gut syndrome and SIBO.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Most people with SIBO, I would assume, have leaky gut syndrome, but not everybody with leaky gut syndrome has SIBO.

Oh my god, this is so complicated.

You need like a textbook to like refer back to.

Maybe that will be my fifth book.

I was going to say, like, please, because this is like, honestly, I have to, I need like notes taking for like this up because it's so much information.

The body, like, you know what I mean?

Like, it's not, one doesn't necessarily mean the other and this one doesn't there's so many like intricate details it is and what's the third and the other thing i was going to say is doing these 42 things that you talk about could it help cure like these other things by doing like the breath work i'm going to get into the other stuff soon right after this question about food things because i think that's important too but could by them doing this 21 day gut feeling plant help the leaky gut the the sebo what's the other third one you said um well I mean, there's so many, right?

I mean,

if we could say

one that comes to mind would be candida overgrowth, or if you could call it CIFO as the acronym, it's small intestinal fungal overgrowth.

So it's just that someone can have bacterial overgrowth, it can have fungal overgrowth as well.

Candida, nothing wrong with candida albacans or any other types of candida, but it's it's part of the human mycobiome, M-Y-C-L biome.

It's all the beneficial yeast and fungus.

Again, nothing inherently wrong with it.

It's the overgrowth of it that's the problem.

So then, okay, what is with all this?

Everyone's like, probiotic, probiotic.

If you take a probiotic

or anyone takes it, is it beneficial?

Can it help with a lot of these issues?

It can.

You have to be judicious with probiotics, right?

Because there's so much information out there on probiotics.

It's so confusing.

I'm so confused.

I know, and it's the Wild West for many people because it is like this.

It's so many brands doing so many things.

And they all say that they're the ones that are most special, that the ones that are most effective.

How do you know that they're like, we have a special strain?

No, no, no, we have a special strain.

Yeah.

We don't need to refrigerate ours because we're so much better than the other one.

Like, and then we also have a prebiotic.

I'm like, okay, I'm so confused.

I'll just have candida and live with it, you know, because it's so confusing.

Yeah, and look, some people don't even need to go and buy a probiotic.

Some people can just maybe start judiciously with like some fermented foods and try that.

Like, do kimchi or how does that help?

What does that say?

It's the same thing.

It's It's probiotics.

It's you're getting beneficial bacteria in food form to support gut health.

Because it basically,

we think of probiotics or probiotic-rich foods like kimchi or kefirs or sauerkraut or kombuchas as like grass seed.

They're not like that as much as influencers of the economy of the microbiome.

They basically encourage other bacteria to grow, basically creating a more hospitable environment.

But then if they're growing and we already have overgrowth, don't you get more overgrowth?

So that's why you have to be judicious with the SIBO component.

So people that have SIBO to getting a lot of fiber, like especially fermentable fibers and probiotics,

it can work, but you have to be judicious.

So there are certain colonies that tend to be more tolerated to people that have SIBO.

We tend to go more towards the spor-based probiotics that just are less reactive and actually act in many ways as antibiotics Because probiotics are sort of, if it's agreeing with your body, they are regulators of the microbiome.

So they actually will help to modulate some of these opportunistic and pathogenic bacterias.

My advice for people that have SIBO, start off low and slow, test these things out.

Obviously, when you have a functional medicine doctor, these things can be, you know, the guesswork can be taken out of it.

So what would you recommend in terms of a, you don't have a probiotic.

We should, by the way.

Oh, you do?

We do, yeah.

I get supplements.

You can promote it.

I know.

I don't.

I'm a horrible businessman when it comes to supplements.

I mean, that's actually kind of, it's actually endearing because then you're not like plugging like just like a product.

Yeah.

But I mean, I was going to say, if anyone should have one, it should be you.

Yeah.

We have.

We do have it.

It's part of the collection.

We have nine.

The reason why we released it is because, and this was years ago, but people asked us, okay, I don't have a functional medicine doctor.

What are the core things that you see on labs?

to be beneficial.

Yes.

So that's why we released it.

It's just, we don't really market it.

It's just there for you.

What are the core things?

It is a probiotic.

It's a multi-strand blend of lactobacillus and bifidobacterium, which are really well tolerated and can really help people to have digestive problems.

Okay.

And there's a magnesium.

Okay.

Magnesium deficiency is so common.

I was going to ask you about that.

I want to ask you about that.

And also digestive enzymes.

Yeah.

Digestive enzymes.

Digestive enzymes are not in the collection because I wouldn't say everybody needs them.

But who does go on them then?

People that have hypochlorhydria or decreased hydrochloric acid, which a lot of people with SIBO have that.

It's basically lower HCL production.

It's causing putrefaction of things like proteins.

In English, please.

Malabsorption.

Their body's not breaking down protein, especially people that have been vegan or vegetarian for many years.

and some people that are just regular omnivores that are not breaking down protein.

And then they think, okay, meat isn't for me, but it's really your low HCL production because of your bacterial overgrowth.

So digestive enzymes can be used, in my opinion, temporarily while we actually get your gut to do its job in the first place.

Because there's a lot of, what's that, what is it called when somebody is not, their body is not absorbing the nutrients of the food.

What's that?

Malabsorption or maldigestion.

Okay, so that's when you should take this digestive enzyme.

Yeah, now you don't have to be overtly an extreme malabsorption, like

malnourished person to benefit from it, but it exists on a spectrum.

You could have functional malabsorption issues, and we quantify these things on labs.

But if people see undigested food in their stool, if they feel like bloating, then yes, digestive enzymes can be a tool for it.

And that's going to be things like lipase and protease and amylase and breaking down proteins, fats, and carbs.

Perfect.

Okay, so in neuro 9, there's magnesium, you said, because people are going to be able to do that.

Yeah, magnesium, methylated B vitamins are in there.

That's very, very important for people to either get it from food at the very least, but supplementation can help many of us.

One minute, you said something about magnesium.

I just remember something wanted to ask you.

There's two different things.

There's magnesium and there's another magnesium that people talk about.

There's actually many types of subtypes of magnesium.

Magnesium threonate

is a blend of different magnesiums, which helps with bioavailability.

Magnesium glycinate, magnesium threonate, there's magnesium oxide, there's magnesium.

There's tons of magnesiums.

But they all have their own strong suits as far as how the body utilizes them and the bioavailability of them.

The body doesn't store much magnesium, So taking it every day can be beneficial and it's really important for our parasympathetic nervous system and our digestion.

So then the magnesium glycinate, do you know what that is?

Of course you do.

When do you take what is that then and why?

That's in the blend that I mentioned too.

So it's a

magnesium glycinate or glycinate, it is well tolerated.

I'd say it's well tolerated and it's the one probably talked about the most.

Yeah.

There's the magnesium,

I forget the one that's in the natural calm, it's magnesium citrate, sorry.

Magnesium citrate or citrate.

That's the most common one.

Yeah, probably because everyone's buying that one product.

And it does increase GI motility.

So people have a little bit sluggish bowels.

I see people doing that.

But look, again, my job would be to, well, why do you have the sluggish GI motility in the first place?

Right.

Magnesium deficiency could be a part of that.

But the problem is those magnesiums that increase the bowel movements, like magnesium citrate, they tend to not be as well stored in the body.

So I have patients that meet me for the first time and they've been taking magnesium citrate for years and their magnesium is still low.

So you need different compounds of them, in my opinion, for most people to get actually the magnesium RBC, a biomarker that we run via blood, to actually be optimal, i.e.

your body having it in the cells to help your nervous system.

out.

So in the nine, so does that mean that people should be taking it every day?

Just a plain magnesium?

I would say most people, yeah.

If I look at

the ubiquity of magnesium deficiency, it's almost everybody.

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and so magnesium you said or said the other thing about okay name the other ones then vitamin d3 k2 which is a no-brainer right right the k2 by the way i know that but and then most people don't take the combination they don't you're right it's they the super savvy people have but yeah it's because it gets they see the d3 it's the one that gets all the attention exactly and so most people I know who think they're like they know their health you know inside and out they're not taking the K2 piece yeah and all fat soluble vitamins I think are

something to be mindful of.

I would recommend getting some of the other ones from food, like vitamin A specifically, but it's hard to get vitamin D from food.

So you supplement or get some healthy sunlight and maybe some, you know, mushrooms have some vitamin D, ghee has some vitamin D,

fatty fish have some vitamin D, but small amounts, right?

You're really going to get it through sunlight or supplementation.

Also, I should say that when you go anywhere, Amazon or whatever, you don't really see very often vitamin D with K2.

It's also not as common at a store or at a place to purchase.

Yeah, they buy them separately.

They buy them separately.

Is that the best thing to do?

No, we combine them, but I think you're right.

The people that are mindful of it typically are buying them separately and then they combine so how much of the vitamin d should you have and how much of the k2 amount should you have to make it a good supplement it depends that the k2 can really vary on the person but vitamin d3 i would say if i'm looking at the average person's labs is about 5 000 i use yeah you can do 2 000 and i what i would say is this if you're going to take 5 000 i use i would get your levels tested pretty periodically about every six months or so because you may not have to to be on 5,000 I use forever and ever.

It's so funny you just said that because I have friends who, you know, like, you know, it's not like less is more, it's more is more and better is more, are taking 20,000, 10,000.

And that you can also be poisoned by vitamin D, I heard.

It's fat-soluble, so it's stored in the fat, and it doesn't clear out as well as the water-soluble.

So, yeah, I have patients having to go off of like these mega doses of vitamin D.

And they're just like, yeah, more is not always better, specifically with fat-soluble vitamins like vitamin D3 and vitamin A.

So that's why food is so a great thing to start with, right?

I mean, with vitamin A, you can get from food, but with vitamin D, it's really not something.

So I would be mindful of continual high doses of any vitamin D3.

But look, I am more concerned with vitamin D deficiency than I am with high vitamin D.

You are?

Okay.

What are the other ones then?

Did we miss any?

Yeah, well,

there's nine.

Again, not the best marketer of it.

Apparently not.

There's an adaptogen.

Rein me in.

Tell me what to say.

Exactly.

There's an adaptogen.

I'm such a fan of adaptogens.

I actually talk about them in the book.

You don't have to tell me.

I know.

It says tips on calming our nervous system, adaptogens, holy basil, lion's mane, ashwagandha.

Which is why I put it in one of the nine in the collection, too, because it's a blend of adaptogens that helps to modulate our

parasympathetic nervous system.

Mainly, this one is modulating the body's stress response, which in turn supports the parasympathetic nervous system.

So, it's supporting the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal access, or the brain adrenal stress response, which is the main hormonal stress response that we see.

Oh, my God.

So, yeah, adaptogens are throughout gut feelings because it's something that I've used in patients' protocols.

So, of course, I'm going to talk about it.

So, ashwagandha as a supplement, is it something we should take, we could take every day to help calm our nervous system?

Yep, it's not necessary to take every day for everybody, but yes, if someone's going through a stressful time in their life

more and more prone to anxiety, because we, some people do have different methylation gene variants that we quantify on labs that make them prone, they're more prone to that sort of anxiety or stress response or

really

you can take breaks off of it and go back to it.

It's not something you have to.

It's not like someone has an adaptogen deficiency like vitamin B or vitamin D, but it's an herbal tool to support the nervous system and the endocrine system.

And what is I thought lion's maneuver was great for your focus and brain.

It is.

So it's a medicinal mushroom, which has some adaptogenic properties because the brain is what's modulating the endocrine system, right?

So it's actually improving nerve growth factors of the brain.

It's been shown to improve neuroplasticity, actually helping the brain make new neurons.

Oh, wow.

So it's not just shaving a mane off of a lion, and it is a mushroom.

Don't do that.

Yeah, please don't do that.

Yeah, don't do that.

And so, and then holy basil.

How do you buy that?

Do you buy that in a supplement part?

That second Canadian thing that we heard today.

Basil versus basil.

Oh, yeah.

Basil.

How do you say it here in the supplementary?

Basil.

Basil.

Basil.

Well, you say basil or basil.

I say basil.

I say basil.

And you say basil.

Yeah.

Tomato, tomato.

Tomato tomato.

Z and Z.

Exactly.

Oh, I love them.

So cute.

And aluminium and aluminum.

That's right.

Oh, my God.

Oh, I have Canadian families.

Okay, what'd you say about the sink?

I say garbage disposal.

We'd say garbage disposal.

No, I'm not saying garbureator.

I say garbureator.

Garbureator.

I never heard that one before.

Wow.

Garbureator.

You don't say that.

Garbureator?

Yeah.

No.

It sounds so like 1950s, like Jetsons.

I'm 140.

Yeah, I mean, that was what I, there's so many of these little words that I can, we can have a whole other podcast about.

But okay, so holy basil, you said you,

oh, basil, whatever.

Do you buy it in a supplement?

Do you just eat it in a, like, what is it?

Well, yeah, well, you could, if somebody lives in India and wants to go forage for holy basil, Tulsi, they could.

First of all, you can, you can, you can, what do you call it?

You can plant a basil plant in your backyard.

It's not the same plant, but you could grow it.

It's not the same plant.

It's not the same plant as basil or basil, but I do, I don't know anybody that does grows adaptogen, like that, like one of the tropical ones.

You can do some other ones, right?

But I don't know how they would grow in certain climates.

Probably here in Southern California, you could.

Yeah, maybe whatever.

But holy, what is it, though?

What does it do?

It's a plant that's been used in Ayurvedic medicine, or it's also known as Tulsi or holy basil.

And it's known as the queen of adaptogens.

It's been used for thousands of years in traditional Indian medicine to support stress and your body's resilience.

So it supports that circadian rhythm between the brain and the adrenal glands, similar to ashwagandha, which most people have heard about, ashwagandha, which has also been used in ayurbedic medicine for a long time.

So they're typically found in teas,

in tinctures, powders, or capsules.

Okay, and so we should take, if to calm our nervous system, it's the, we should take all of these, right?

The holy basil, the lion basil, lions made, ashwagandha.

No, you don't have to take all of them.

So sometimes blends can be great because it's a sort of a synergistic benefits of it.

And there's a lot of sort of curation.

And that's sort of the art and science of, I think, of herbalism and what I do in functional medicine.

But look, I think there's some merit to saying, look, let's just, if we want to keep things simple, let's just, if the study was done on X amount of milligrams of whatever adaptogen we're talking about, let's just try one and see how we feel.

So you don't have to have all of them because they all in.

in some ways are really doing similar things.

Some have some hallmark things, like you mentioned, lion's lion's mane.

Some of these medicinal mushrooms have some extra neuroprotective benefits that haven't really been researched in the other herbs, but they all have their strong suits, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Got it.

And then one thing you talked about with the book, and

I find this to be very interesting because I think this is what happened to me, is that you shouldn't be eating the same food all the time.

You should have variety.

So like for example, I've been eating like eggs for breakfast for like 20 years, right?

And I think I became allergic to it.

Where now when I went and got my test done, it was basically saying I'm highly, highly allergic.

I should never eat another egg again.

And that could be the reason why I have so many of these like skin, like eczema and stuff like that.

How can, so does that, is that something what happens?

Like you can actually make your body allergic to a food if you eat it too often.

Higher immunoreactive foods, there's the potential to do it.

And eggs, the albumin and the egg whites, does have the potential to do that.

I'm saying that in the book mainly from a microbiome diversity standpoint.

Okay, not for well, we can talk about that because it's important, but I just wanted to have someone have a diverse microbiome.

And the different foods that they eat, the more diverse your microbiome is going to be, which is associated with longer, healthier life, less inflammation, better brain health.

Right.

And which because you have better gut health.

But that's an interesting point.

And I'd be curious to see that test that you ran.

I would love to show it to you.

Because it's,

was it an actual allergy test or was it one of those sensitivity tests?

One of these very well-known, like he's like the top nutrient, like he's like from a NASA, he's from NASA, and then he like now does all the sports teams and sports athletes.

He took a panel, like, I don't know how many thousands of like things, and it came back saying what I'm deficient in and what I'm not deficient in.

I'm like, apparently I'm really like deficient in a lot of things that I never even knew, which I think a lot of people may, may that would happen.

But the eggs was like really surprising because I ate them so often.

And that's typically because of some intestinal permeability or leaky gut syndrome.

So I would say, yes, eggs can be inflammatory for some people.

They can be reactive for some people.

And not even know it?

And not even know it because it could be a source of inflammation.

It's not that it's causing extreme, obvious digestive issues, but it's contributing to the larger level of inflammation, the cascade of inflammation that's in their body.

So people have to kind of weigh: do I really love eggs?

If it's not causing any obvious issues, can I, or just maybe mix it up?

Because I see that sometimes when we do reintroduction, when we've gone off of eggs for a while, done some reintroduction, we measuring antibodies to albumin, which is egg white, which is the more problematic part of it as far as the inflammation

part of it.

Because there's molecular mimicry.

Like the theory that the researchers are talking about is this case of mistaken identity when the immune system sees albumin leaking through the gut lining into the bloodstream and it's similar enough in structure to our own proteins where it's creating this inflammatory response.

That's what happens many times when you get a blood test.

That's really what you're seeing is sort of some sort of IgG, some sort of immunoglobulin response to albumin.

I don't have the lab that you got done, but that's typically how they're done.

So my goal in that case would be just to let's heal the gut and reintroduce it so i don't think people need to be fearful about eggs some people really have to deal with these upstream root causes well eggs are just mine but it could be for anybody it could be it could be anything anything for anybody because see these people with these food sensitivity tests that have like a hundred things positive it doesn't mean you have a hundred different food sensitivities it's right less to do about those foods and more to do with the immune system's overreaction to those foods and they're typically the ones that are positive are the ones that people just eat all the time all the time well that's why i think there's like such you know in the the last 10 years, everyone is like now gluten intolerant.

No one was gluten intolerant like this 10 years ago.

But now, because people eat so many carbs, that that's, it shows up.

But an intolerance

and an allergy are not even the same thing.

Yeah, intolerance, sensitivity, and allergies are all different things, actually.

So insensitivity and allergy are both immune-mediated, meaning that the immune system is responsible for it.

The allergy is what we know.

It's the more of the immediate response, and it is like it can be very life-threatening, right, for some people, but not always.

And then the sensitivity is still immunoglobulin, it's still immune-mediated, but it's typically delayed, it's typically chronic, typically like sublime in the sense that people don't really realize it.

And intolerances technically aren't actually immune-mediated.

They're an enzyme deficiency.

So a lactose intolerance is a deficiency of lactase or

any other, you know, intolerance.

It's really an enzymatic deficiency, which is still a gut health problem, Right.

It's a production of the enzyme issue, not an immune system issue.

That's so interesting.

And then I wanted to ask you this, and then we went into the ways for calming your nervous system.

And that's how what are some signs that you have a dysregulated nervous system?

Well, and then I'm sorry, we can, I'm in talking to you and

talking to you.

Well, I mean, look, I have

till tomorrow, by the way.

So

I have pajamas.

Yeah, we'll get, well, can we get in the Guinness Brook of World Records?

We should just see whatever the longest podcast is.

I mean, by the way.

Five days.

Solomon said five days.

Five days?

Well, wait, how long has this been?

It hasn't been that long.

No, I just joking.

I know you're joking, but how long has this been?

Oh, I thought it was like only 45 minutes.

Sorry, Will.

He's like getting, he's like stretching in the chair.

No, no.

You know, just a really funny side note, and then I'll ask the question again.

But Mark Manson, do you know who he is?

No.

He wrote the book,

The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.

I've seen the book, yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, he was here like last week, and he was here for like an hour longer before we even started, right?

And then we, we were starting, he's like, by the way, how long?

He's like, this is not going to be like a three-hour podcast.

And I'm like, no, of course not.

You'll be out of here in an hour.

It was like two hours and 45 minutes.

We were starting to get it.

Exactly.

I was like, oh my God.

Anyway, sorry.

Okay, so question being, what are some signs that we have a dysregulated nervous system?

I did,

you know how people like quizzes.

I adapted questions that I ask patients during an initial telehealth consultant.

Yes, you do like quizzes.

And I adapted

questions that I ask patients into a quiz, and it's on the website.

So people go to drwilcoal.com, just go to the gut feelings section, and there's a shameflammation quiz that's just really an amalgamation of different questionnaires that I ask patients.

But

if they want to get granular, they can take the quiz.

But for the sake of today's conversation, I mean, look,

if your question was a dysregulate nervous system, yes.

Yeah, so anxiety.

I mean, look, anyone that's anxiety, anybody with depression, anybody that has an autoimmune issue, anybody that has chronic fatigue syndrome, anybody that has a metabolic or hormonal problem, anybody that has a digestive problem.

Do you know what this sounds like right now?

Do you know those commercials when like they're like give you like a million different things that can go like anyone who's tall, short, you know, blonde or brown, you know what I mean?

But it exists on a spectrum.

Some people, it's mild.

Yeah.

Some people, it's very extreme.

Oh, this is, I love all this stuff.

That's why, I mean, I can talk to you for hours, but I know you have other places to go.

So I love talking to you, like I said.

Master, master interviewer.

Oh, I love you for saying that.

Where could people, okay, first of all, where could people find more?

You just told people at willcool.com.

Dr.

Willco.com.

Drwillcool.com.

The book is called Gut Feelings.

You're all over social media and goop, right?

And people, you are like, you are seeing patients.

You probably don't need any more though but but we have the proper bandwidth of team people can I still see all the concierge patients on group calls initial consults yeah it's that's my day job so but there are other options for people too we have group class options which I still see them weekly and group group yeah we have group we have concierge one-on-one and we have group models to make it more accessible affordable really yeah I've never heard of that what do you mean well the Cleveland Clinics functional medicine center historically and they came they opened up after, you know, like we started before there was even a Cleveland Clinic Functional Medicine Center.

But when they opened, they had a group model.

And I don't know if they still do that, but I think that they have a long waiting list there too.

And they're doing amazing things.

And they tend to have a lot more group models.

And that's something that I always knew, okay, this is one path for many people to further democratize this and get people access to it, to lower the cost for it.

So they still have their individual health coaches, but a lot of the group things with me are via group.

A lot of the sessions with me are.

How does it work?

Like, there's more than like, there's like 10 people on a screen.

Yeah, there's like a lot, lots of people.

Like, how many?

I mean, right now we have, in just the group model alone, about 250 people on a call.

Yeah.

Not everybody joins every week because they're getting such good care from their coaches, but the calls are every week.

So, there's like

dozens and dozens and dozens of calls with me.

So, they don't have to join every week.

And And so what do you do?

You go over topics of things or?

Answering questions, topics, just deep dives on things.

Again, they still have their one-on-one coach.

So it's a hybrid.

It's not entirely group.

So when you say a one-on-one coach, like another functional medicine doctor who works underneath you?

Functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner.

So they're basically, you could call them nutritionists, health coaches within functional medicine.

Yeah.

And then what if they want to see you?

So that would be the concierge side of things.

And I still do that too.

That's most of my day is that.

Oh, that's what you.

So, what do you do with Goop?

What's your relationship with Goop?

So, Goop, just my friends.

They're just friends of my friends.

My friends, and my book is under the impression.

Yeah.

That's it.

They were friends first before the book.

Okay, I didn't, but I thought you were involved in their website or something.

Well, the history's long, but I

history, because I hosted one of the first Goop podcast spin-off.

It's called Goop Fellas.

Oh my, whatever happened to that?

They need to bring it back.

I have my own podcast now.

It's called The Art of Being Well.

But

it lasted for about a year or so.

I just think the pandemic happened, right?

And I think they just readjusted how they were doing and they're focused on the podcast side of things.

And Seamus Mullin's still a friend of mine.

Everybody, Goop's still a friend of mine.

It's just the podcast, we never revisited it.

And we're all busy doing different things.

And was it just for fellas then?

No, it wasn't.

It was for everybody.

A lot of women like listen to Goop Fellas.

Maybe the problem was it was named, the branding was off.

People thought maybe they women who listen or majority of people listen to podcasts, they were scrolling and they're like, oh, this isn't for me.

It's for fellas.

Well, that could have been it.

But here's the deal with that: is that Goop

is still like really does a lot of things for men.

And I think it was their way to bring in more people to the conversation.

Oh,

I remember that now that you said that.

Yeah, Blast from the Past, 2019.

100%.

Yeah.

And yeah, so they're just, that's what, that's my relationship with them.

So I write, I write for them occasionally, and that's about it.

Oh, okay.

Well, I don't work for Goop.

I don't work.

No, no, I know you don't work for.

I mean, because even on your like press stuff, it says something about Goop.

And I was just like...

The Goop Press, yeah, it's the Goop Press.

It's the book, it's Goop Press.

I understand all that stuff.

Oh, I understand now.

Well, this has been very, very enlightening.

I appreciate you being on this podcast, as usual.

You're a wealth of information.

I have a million more questions, but you can just come on again next time.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, this is amazing.

Thank you, Will.

Thank you.

Bye.