Episode 197: Dr. Nicole LePera - The Holistic Psychologist, Author, and Podcast Host

All right, the time has almost come.

My book, Bigger, Better, Boulder, is hitting the shelves, launching, debuting on December the 27th.

And I am so excited.

I'm thrilled that I get to share this book with you guys.

It took me two years to write it, and it really is a culmination of all the different tactics and traits that I used to build my life that I've used on tons of of clients from the last 20 years, from athletes to entrepreneurs.

And it's all about building your bold, you know, making boldness a skill that you can learn to really get what you want, chase what you want, and not just take what you can get.

My entire philosophy is about living the life you want and not the life you get.

And really, it's really about taking actionable steps that anybody can do and anybody anybody can learn.

Unfortunately, a lot of us get stuck in the self-doubt syndrome, right?

And the fear of failure, which then holds us back from going after things or asking for things that really is much more aligned with who we are and the life we want to live.

So that's why I'm so thrilled that I have this book now to share with people about helping people, teaching people how they can make these bold moves and become bolder and asking for what they want and finding the courage within them to live the life they want.

Like I said, I'm so excited.

It's on pre-order right now.

You can pre-order it anywhere: Amazon, Barnes Noble, Target, and really start living true to who you are.

And I can't wait to see your response once you get it.

Thanks.

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Greg.

Today on the podcast, we have my friend Dr.

Nicole LaPera, otherwise known as the holistic psychologist.

Over the past few years, Nicole has become the leading voice in psychological self-healing, helping millions of people around the world rise out of survival mode to consciously create authentic lives they love.

Her number one instant New York Times bestseller, how to do the work, offered readers a revolutionary holistic framework for self-healing.

It was a manifesto of how to heal from the dysfunctional patterns that hold us back from living up to our fullest potential.

And since that publication, she heard from thousands of readers who wanted more and to go deeper.

So she created How to Meet Yourself, which is a workbook for self-discovery.

It's literally a revolutionary guide, a kind of encouraging companion, and a comprehensive master work of self-understanding.

It's designed to completely completely be self-guided, to be used at your own pace, and to be used wherever you feel most comfortable.

Nicole and I speak about everything on this podcast, you know, past trauma, how it affects our present, and how we don't want it to affect our future.

I always love speaking with Nicole because she is amazing at meeting people where they are.

And when she speaks, it resonates, obviously, with millions of people around the world.

Like I said, I enjoyed having this conversation.

I know you will enjoy listening to this conversation and have takeaways that are extremely helpful for you.

Leave me a comment.

Please let me know what you think and enjoy.

Nicole LePer is on the podcast who I adore.

And if you guys don't know who she is and you're living under a rock, then just put her on IG or Google her because she's incredible.

She's known as a holistic psychologist.

And what I was saying before we started recording was

what, and I'm going to have to just repeat myself, so bear with me.

That when I first met

you, you were already exploded.

You went from like zero to, let's say, a million followers in a very short period of time.

And then you went from one million to two, to two to five, like to three, to now like almost six million followers.

People are like obsessed with you for good reason.

You have amazing information, which we're going to get into.

But I was just asking her, I was like, well, has all this like fame and

popularity, like, how, like, how have you been?

Like, has it affected you?

Are you overwhelmed by it?

Are you, do you notice it?

Like, and so

tell me.

Absolutely.

I think

from going in a visible, putting myself on a public platform like Instagram, whatever, I created that account some three plus years ago.

For me, even presenting myself publicly is a challenge.

There's a very little wounded girl inside of me that as much as, you know, I think many of us want to be seen and heard and loved for who we are, given my own past experience and trauma.

I'm sure we'll get into all of this.

So wearing concepts to talk.

But ultimately, saying all that to say, being visible

has always been.

obviously a desire in some way, understanding that I could be the vehicle for this message that I'm really impassioned to get out to the collective, though there's been the challenge side of me of, oh my gosh, don't look at me.

Don't, don't listen to me.

Am I important enough to be heard in this way?

So as the community has grown and i think it's grown because people just are seeing themselves in the things that i'm talking about and the messages they're resonating with maybe concepts that at one point were just an idea or a concept and really now understanding how what that means in their own life and how to utilize the tools to create change so i think the message is universally resonant which is why to speak to your point there's been explosive growth and on the daily what that then has translated to is more opportunities for me to be seen and

going in my day-to-day life.

I was sharing with you even yesterday.

I went and grabbed lunch and the person checking me in was a member of the community and spoke to me about

the work.

And then someone sitting at a table when I was leaving who had just ended a relationship and was feeling that seeing me and crossing paths with this sign.

And so while being seen again is challenging, when I have those moments, it's so affirming.

And I honestly, I feel honored, Jennifer, that I can be, whether it's a messenger of this piece of information or this tool that this listener might receive and use to change their life, or I can be a symbolic messenger, right?

Walking past someone even yesterday, taking my presence to affirm that them ending that relationship was the choice for them and they were actually out on a self-care date for themselves.

And seeing me at that self-care date was this affirming message.

So again, while I know that it's me that people are responding to in some ways, I also understand that it's more than me.

It's the message.

It's what I symbolize.

It's the change that they're maybe empowered to create in their life.

So that keeps me showing up, even though it is difficult sometimes, I think, to be seen in all of these different contexts.

Yeah.

I mean, like, just think of it, like that, you, like the social media, in a sense, is the new Hollywood, right?

Absolutely.

And so you have such a huge audience and a like legit, like an engaged audience.

You can have a people can have a huge number, but it means nothing if no one's really engaged with the content.

But like you have such an engaged community, membership, audience.

And like I was saying to you even before, like people that I would never even normally think that would, I guess, like recognize the episode that we did the first time, like two, three years ago, were calling me or texting me or DMing me.

Oh my God, I love Nicole.

She's helped me.

I've listened to her for this.

Like you really are making like a profound difference in people's lives, which is unbelievable on a massive scale.

It's amazing.

It's really, really incredible.

And it's been really,

I'm really grateful for the opportunity because just as much as they're connecting with me or my message, I mean, I've cultivated many relationships with community members from just seeing their handle, creating conversations, almost getting to know them.

So that if I ever would, and I have happened upon some of them in real life, you know, coincidentally at meditations that I used to hold that I hope to hold again in person.

And oh my gosh, now I have a face to this handle and this name that I've actually felt like, you know, I'm feeling like we're having a relationship of sorts.

And for me, having.

modified myself in so many ways to relate to other people in all different types of relationships, not only romantic, but with my friends and colleagues and just in general in public,

learning how to be authentic in a safe space has for me been one of the most healing aspects of this amazing community that we've created together.

What's beautiful also

is that like you haven't changed even a little, like you really are the same person.

It doesn't feel like it's gotten to your head at all or you feel like you're bigger or like it doesn't you you feel very grounded and just normal.

Like it's because a lot of times when you meet people who have had like a lot of like success and fame really quickly like that, it does make them

different

and it does affect them.

But you seem like true blue, just, you know, you're the same way.

I'm happy it trends.

I mean, even the title of the new workbook, How to Meet Yourself, I mean, one of my goals is being that authentic self.

So, regardless of how in what context that you are interacting with me or with any of us that are on this journey to just figure out who they are and to be that person more consistently than not, hearing you say that is really affirming to me.

Oh, absolutely.

My intention and my goal and my hope to give these tools to the collective so that they can figure themselves out and learn how to be the grounded human no matter what's happening around them.

Well, so we're talking about the workbook.

I'm glad you brought it up because that's why we're really here talking about it.

But what made you decide now is a time to write the workbook?

The idea for the workbook has been percolating since I wrote How to Do the Work.

One of the aspects, while it is a very much a narrative-based book, conceptual book, I was very intentional with making making that those concepts practical.

At the end of each chapter, I have the practical application, whether it's journal prompts or breath work or tools like that.

And as I was marrying along writing that, I'm like, wow, there's a lot of other stuff here that, you know, I could be offering in terms of tools.

And I really wanted to give a comprehensive guidebook.

And very much the way I think about how to do the work and will always think about it.

My hope is that, and I've always said this since the idea to publish it and I had the opportunity came to mind, is I want to put out a work that is livable, that someone can live with no matter where they are in life, they might go back to it, revisit certain chapters, revisit certain exercises and not be a book that, oh, I read it and boop, right, there it goes and on your bookshelf and then never

again.

Or what was that book about?

So, and I've heard more consistently than not, like I see people tag it.

This is the third time I'm reading this book and I get something new every time and I'm, I get chills even thinking about it.

So very similarly, my hope for the workbook, because it is very comprehensive, is that people live with it, they sit with it, they take their time going through it, they revisit certain aspects somewhere down the line or certain exercises or tools as they need them.

So the seed of the workbook was planted when I discovered or kind of identified that, you know, I do want to put a little more comprehensive start to finish journey about the elusive search.

for this authentic self.

I think that's what joins us together.

I think we're all in some way

trying to find, figure out, find our way back to who we are.

So, having then the opportunity to actually put it in a workbook and publish it in such a beautiful workbook, I'm really proud of how it came out.

It's great.

I think you did a really nice job.

And like I was, again,

sometimes, you know, I feel on these podcasts, the best conversations happen before you press straightforward, right?

Because it's like, and then I feel like I'm just repeating myself.

But it is so, it's so not just extensive, and there's such practical, like that, to your point, I love when I read a book or when I'm going through something.

And not only does it resonate with me, because you can pick from so many different pieces of that book that you're like, oh my God, that is me, or like, I know someone like that, or my husband's like that.

And you can make the connecting points, but then you have these practice, these actionable elements where then you can put it into practice as opposed to this theory, right?

Which is very like, that's when you end up just putting it on the shelf and then not doing anything about it.

So, i like i said i think you guys you did a great great job on it so i guess my first question about the book is then how what is the first step what's the first step that people should be doing to be getting to this authentic self the first step i will always cite whatever transformational self-discovering journey you're on and i will shout this from the rooftops probably until i'm not here anymore is creating a habit of being conscious to how we're showing up each and every day.

Because the reality for most of us, I've referenced it before and in how to do the work as our autopilot.

What the autopilot consists of, in my opinion, is all of those conditioned thoughts, feelings, ways of being.

And so what most of us are embodying, and I talk about a concept in the workbook of the habit self, right?

This way of being that is so unconscious to us that we just have learned to identify.

Oh, yeah, I always feel this way.

I'm a sad person or I'm an angry person or I'm a reactive person or however it is that we kind of describe ourself in a whole, a totality.

And so the first step, I think, is becoming conscious that while we might be so merged with these habits that we've been repeating from probably the beginning of our lived experience is that that's not truly who we are.

And we can become conscious to that when we learn how to be a conscious witness to observe the very habitual way many of us go about our day.

We wake up, not even to think about it.

And we all have habits.

We're just not intentional with a lot of our habits.

So, building a foundation of that witnessing or that consciousness will be the foundation that we then evolve into.

Well, how am I caring for my body?

The first section of the book is really focusing on the nervous system and health and physical health care and really creating habits to really attune to the physical bodies that most of us are living in.

Well, it's interesting because that's how, how do we even, if we don't, we don't know what we don't know, right?

So if someone is not someone who's self-aware, right?

The first step is to have the consciousness or the self-awareness to even pick up on those habits or those things that are carrying them down that negative rabbit hole, right?

That self-sabotage.

So how, what do we do?

How do we stop doing these habits that are self-sabotaging?

First, that's the first part.

The second part, or I should say, the second part would be if we have no awareness of what they are in the first place, I guess.

So, starting with part two,

learning how to be in awareness, right?

Learning how to, and I often reference, you know, we all walk around with phones, setting that alarm a couple of times a day to just consciously check in with yourself.

First, am I paying attention fully?

Am I in my body?

Am I connected to whatever experience is happening around me?

Or am I lost in thought?

Am I, you know, somewhere else in my mind?

Am I distracted?

So, really learning how to be visible to us allows us then to see the habits that we're repeating that may not be serving us ultimately.

So before we can change them, we have to see what we are doing, the choices that we're making, the reactions that we're having.

And then to speak to your first question, point two,

because Jennifer, the embodiment now of change is challenging.

Creating new habits, making new choices will ultimately challenge the subconscious part of our brain that prefers those habits.

Because in the predictability of those habits, we think is safety.

There's a reason why we are habitual beings, and that's because we've, we know what comes next.

And that feels so much safer than to our survival driven subconscious mind than the possible threat that might be in that unknown.

And it's counterintuitive because many of us are like, well, I don't understand.

I'm creating new habits that are going to help my physical body or help me, you know, be more emotionally regulated logically.

Shouldn't I want to, you know, embody these new choices?

And the reality of it is the second we do, it's going to signal you're in unfamiliar territory.

And one of two things happen.

We either get the racing thoughts, all of the reasons why we shouldn't be doing this.

Now's the right time.

This isn't working anyway.

You can start tomorrow.

Some of us, it drops into our body.

We start to experience ourself in a new way and it feels unfamiliar.

We might be uncomfortable in new ways.

Again, all of the reason to return to those old habits.

So the step of embodying that choice is really the journey of creating the change and of learning to tolerate the discomfort that will come with it.

Which is interesting because we would rather do something that's that's bad for us because it's familiar than to change that habit in the first place.

Absolutely.

Which is so, I mean, that's like, and in order to like change that neuroplasticity, you have to kind of, is it like you have to keep on doing something that's uncomfortable or different over and over again?

Like, how do you change the neuroplasticity?

Consistency is

is really important.

And just to clarify, because when we're saying neuroplasticity, I think sometimes.

Neuropathways.

No, no, you're right.

Oh, I am.

But I think listeners might think then we are just talking about the brain, right?

Thinking a new thought, using affirmation, a mantra, right?

Conceptualizing or having a new awareness.

And I really want to highlight that it also means the body, right?

Learning how to, and I keep focusing on going back to the nervous system because so many of our nervous systems into adulthood are dysregulated.

We have to learn learn how to create safety in our body, how to drop back in for some of us first and foremost to our body.

You talk about that in the book, Regulated versus Deregulated.

What's the difference?

How would you know the difference?

Like, how would someone

me know the difference?

Yeah.

So we have an unconscious system.

It's called neuroception.

We're always scanning.

Our nervous system is always on alert for a possible threat.

And I'll simplify kind of what happens when there is no threat at hand.

We're in what's called the parasympathetic, otherwise known as rest and digest.

We're able to be calm, to feel peaceful, to feel connected to others, the world around us.

We're engaged.

We're safe.

If when we're scanning, we perceive the possibility of a threat, the first attempt that we'll do is to fight the threat.

If we have the idea that we might be able to overcome the threat, our nervous system will mobilize.

We'll go into sympathetic fight or flight.

And the first thing we'll do is our heart will start pumping.

Think about a fight, right?

Boxing.

Our heart will start pumping.

Our muscles will tense.

Getting ready to throw that physical punch.

We might start to sweat a little bit.

Our body heat will rise.

Our body temperature will rise because we're attempting to create safety by defeating that threat.

If we discover that we can't fight that threat or if we perceive that that this threat is too big for me, it's overwhelming me.

The second thing I'll try to do is to use all that mobilized energy and flee.

My next best option is to get the heck away from the thing that could threaten me.

Same thing.

I have all the blood pumping.

My muscles are tense.

I'm maybe running away, right?

I'm blood pumping through my veins.

My chest or my breath might be quickened.

If we can't escape, we become shut down.

Our energy decreases.

We might feel listless.

Our muscles might even feel like we can't move.

Our breath might be non-existent.

We might be holding our breath.

Now we're in a shutdown state.

So dropping in, I mean, I I described a little bit the sensations, dropping into your body is going to give you the clues to whether or not your nervous system is dysregulated.

And our muscle tension is a great place to look.

Our blood flow, our breath, and our heart rate, those are usually signals.

And again, if we're too much energy, if we're amplified, we can bring it down.

If we don't have enough energy, we want to make choices to stimulate our body.

And, you know, it's all about being safe.

You said, you said, and you talk about safety a lot too um what are some ways and tools that people can work on that to get their bodies to feel safe yes safety safety yeah safety is incredibly important and again it's an embodied practice and a lot of us when we drop in and we don't feel safe

we want to shift the way we're breathing shift um you know the energy in our body if it's too low bring it higher if it's too high bring it lower we can ground ourself in the present moment, attune to what's actually happening around us.

Turn our attention to grounding, the feeling of our heels on the earth when we're standing or sitting.

Anytime we can really focus our energy in what's happening here now, because for a lot of us, the fear and that nervous system reaction is living in a past moment, right?

We're assigning a meaning of a similar experience that happened before, and I was overwhelmed and I had a fight or flee.

And so now my nervous system is mobilizing as if that's my only option now.

So for many of us, if we can just really turn our focus of attention to where are we standing?

What is available to us?

Can I maybe breathe a little bit deeper?

If I do feel my breath starting to quicken, all of those are ways that we can ground ourselves and create safety in our body.

But it's those choices that involve our body, that involve changing its energy, changing the focus of my attention, changing maybe the pace of my breath that will send that signal to my body.

This is where we have to make that action instead of of just thinking, I am safe.

Well, you give all these different breathing techniques.

There's like so many.

I didn't know there were so many different types of breathing.

My God.

So, when do you do what?

Like, which ones are, is there certain breathing techniques that are better for different scenarios, or you can just pick and choose like, you know, whatever you want?

There's a ton of type of breath works, probably some I've never even heard of, or I'm not educated in enough.

They're in the rounds.

There's a million of them.

To speak of, but really simply, I'll simplify.

When our breathing is quickened, when we're kind of, our chest is heaving, we want to calm our breathing down.

Slow, deep belly breathing is a great kind of go-to.

If we're always holding our breath or if we're in that nervous system shut down state that I described, we have no energy, it's really, we feel very listless.

Then we can actually do, I love to shout out Wim Hoff.

I think he does a great

stimulating, vigorous breathing type of work.

Well, you did this on the podcast.

He did this breath work with me

on the podcast.

And again youtube is a great place you can go and pop in you know some keyword searches if if neither of those are of interest to you but if our breath is too quick we want to slow it down just really simple if our breath is too slow or we're holding it we want to stimulate our body but there's a ton to speak to your point of different types so i really suggest listeners really find one that works for them that can fit into their daily life because again what is most important right is the consistency of practice and breath work is one of those areas where oh yeah i know deep belly breathing when i'm stressed out so i'm i'm only going to do it when I'm stressed out.

That's what I was going to ask you.

I was going to say, like, how important is this for a daily use?

Most of you.

Do you do this daily?

Daily.

And you meditate daily?

I meditate not in a traditional sense daily.

So when I started my journey, I was very much in that shutdown state.

I was detached, dissociated, disconnected from my body.

Felt like I had very little energy.

I was actually fainting at some point.

Can you give people a little bit of background?

Because just in case that they don't know the first episode, absolutely that.

So to kind of take you through all those nervous system states.

I had a lot of stress in my childhood environment, right?

Cycling through that attempt at fighting it, at fleeing it, my nervous system, not being able to actually leave the home that I was growing up in.

A lot of stress was happening, not only because I was living in a city where there was active stressors just related to daily city life.

I had health-related issues with my mom and my sister in particular, who both struggled or suffered with chronic illness my whole life.

So lots of stress resulted in, before I know it, a completely shut down nervous system.

I had none of this language though.

I no idea, couldn't even like acknowledge that there was even something wrong with me.

When I was in my teenage years, high school years, I started to come to my awareness that I didn't have memories of my childhood.

I would talk to my friends and they would share childhood Christmas stories and this and that and look to me for how it was.

I don't remember.

Very soon we would have memories together as friends.

Oh, that concert last year.

Oh, I went.

What?

You know, really

no memory.

So then I'm like, what is wrong with me?

Why don't I have memories?

Like, do I have a brain disorder?

Again, not having language, no understanding of why I didn't have memories, trudging along, pushing myself through life still, overwhelming myself more and more.

Flash forward in time, I now have a private practice.

I'm seeing clients.

It's very successful.

I've checked all the boxes of achievement.

I should be, you know, good.

I felt very disconnected, unfulfilled, going through the motions, working for the weekend, couldn't wait to go away again.

And before long, I out of nowhere, I started fainting and never fainted in my life.

The first time it happened, I was actually, not coincidentally, at a good childhood friend's house.

We had reconnected after years of, you know, kind of living our own lives.

And so, I think something subconsciously was percolating, seeing her again.

And we were out.

She was showing me her new complex that she lived in.

They had a pool accessible.

She's like, I want to show you my pool.

We go out to the pool.

I faint.

I wake up to her and Lolly, my partner, waving over me, scared out of their mind because I hit my head.

And like, what happened?

Probably about three or four weeks later, I fainted again.

Early one morning, we were in a hardware store.

I started to get that feeling.

I fainted.

Again, I had no language.

Now I'm sure something's wrong with my brain.

Yeah.

How could it not be?

It was shortly after that I was kind of exposed to this whole new world of the body, physiology, and the nervous system.

And when I started to learn about the nervous system, what I discovered was I was in that state of that shutdown.

I was living my whole life and fainting was just kind of my nervous system's final attempt at being like, you're done here.

So having the language for it really helped me and didn't answer your question.

I got very consistent in Wim Hoff in particular.

I made a commitment each and every morning to pop on his YouTube and to take myself through his breathing because my nervous system was shut down.

I needed to stimulate my body.

So again, it's important that we practice these tools consistently.

Cause if we're waiting for the moment when we need them, a couple of things will happen.

We won't remember because the moment we need them now, this logical part of my brain that learned this new tool is actually shut down.

We're now totally in our emotional limbic system brain.

We don't have access to this new thing I want to do.

We actually kind of go offline in a lot of ways.

And we're not going to be confident in the tool.

We're going to be so dysregulated.

So developing that consistent habit will translate to then in that moment when we really need it, then we can actually utilize it.

Wow.

That's a great explanation, by the way, for why, because I'll always say, oh, I don't like it.

I'm not going to do it.

I'll do it when I need it.

And then you end up forgetting exactly to your point.

But there's such benefits from doing the daily practice of that.

But you're saying you don't actually do real meditation.

So meditation.

So in the beginning, when I first discovered in my early 20s, I met the concept of mindfulness.

Intuitively, I knew it was important.

I'm like, oh, this is

something here.

And I avoided it because at that point, sitting in silence with my thoughts was probably the most overwhelming thing.

I actually prided myself on keeping myself busy, never alone, never in silence, and never wrapped up in those thoughts, distract it, disconnect it.

So for me, that felt completely unapproachable.

And I know it does for many.

So we can become what we're practicing practicing when we're meditating, really simply, in my opinion, at least, is we're becoming conscious.

We're learning closing the eyes in the traditional way that we meditate decreases the external stimulation, allows us to be present with our internal world.

It's an act of consciousness, right?

Then we get to view these thoughts in our mind and choose if we pay attention to them or what we're doing with our attention in that moment.

And because that felt really overwhelming, as it will for a lot of us, I practiced consciousness when I was going about my day.

For me, moving my body, because in addition to breath work, I made a commitment, understanding that I had so much tension and tightness from living stressed out.

My whole, even my posture showed it.

I made a daily commitment to moving.

Again, not in a strenuous way.

I definitely wasn't at the gym.

Up until that point, I was someone who avoided physical discomfort.

Even after having played sports, I had so much tightness in my muscles that the second I stretched and my muscles got a little bit ouchy, I'd stop my stretch.

I took that to mean that, oh, you can't push your body past that limit.

Your body's screaming not to.

So,

I developed a complete habit of avoiding discomfort, which meant that outside of walking around the city that I lived in to commute myself to work, I didn't do much activity at all.

So, the commitment I made was not only to breath work,

it was to my body, to first for me, gently stretching my body.

Maybe 10 minutes a day, I would put in, I loved yoga with Adrian, still love her to this to this day.

Adrian, I don't know.

She's a simple, daily, kind of easy yoga practitioner.

And I, it was so approachable for me.

She does these 30-day challenges where, you know, some practices are 10 minutes, some are maybe 20 minutes.

And I commit it to gently moving my body each and every morning to begin to create.

you know, release the tension, create a new habit of moving and working past that resistance that I didn't like to do then.

Wow.

And it's worked for you.

And it's, I mean, that for me, tending to my body, allowing my nervous system to come back into balance, I think has been the foundational change.

And why now I call myself the holistic psychologist and I really profess the need to incorporate the body.

In my opinion, without the body, where our nervous system lives,

we're not going to create the healing and the transformation.

It's interesting because I'm so much in my body that I become less in my head.

So it's like, how, it's like that mind-body connection is very difficult for either people are too in their body or they're too in their head.

To get the combination is

I find to be very challenging right like do you know what I'm saying by that

do people ever ask you about that like I that they are not having the there's a disconnect between the two yeah I think we can have different focal points and where we spend our most time and I think like you're saying learning how to shift and I'll add a third area to shift focus like how is my my body feeling?

What are the thoughts going into my mind?

How am I perceiving?

What is the meaning I'm making the event?

And what's what's happening outside of me?

Yeah.

Right.

And how do I balance kind of my attention on all of those areas to make sense then of what I'm experiencing and what choice then I want to make?

And I, to speak to your point, I do think some of us become hyper focused.

in one area

i'm hyper focused on my body or i'm so lost in my mind all the time or i'm so externally focused i don't even me who's me i'm always looking at you and what you need and perceiving the external environment you did i love how you break down also like everything.

That's why I loved your book, like both of them, because you give like, if you're this kind of person

or like this kind of person, hold on, what was it?

Like there's so many of them.

Like, you know, look for this.

Like there's something you talked about with, well, a lot, but

you talked about the emotional self, the authentic self, the, what was the other one, the physical self?

What is the emotional self?

And then, yeah, can you break those down?

Absolutely.

So the book begins with the foundation of the physical self.

Let's attune to my physical body.

Let's identify the state of nervous system dysregulation I'm in.

Safety.

Let's create safety.

Let's make sure I'm, another way we create safety is to make sure I'm consistently meeting my needs.

Am I sleeping the amount I need to sleep?

And this is some area.

These are physical needs.

These are physical needs.

There's a whole pyramid of it.

Right, because that's also how we feel safe.

When our needs aren't consistently met, we don't feel safe.

Our body is going to send a signal that's actually not safe because it needs more sleep or it needs its muscles to be moved a bit or it's not getting the nutrients that it needs.

So safety is about not only creating safety in those moments where I'm perceiving a threat, it's continuously sending my body signals that it has what it needs.

So that begins the journey because that is the foundation as far as I see it.

And then the next layer of the onion is our mental or emotional self.

All of these experiences, perceptions, the way we even navigate our emotions.

For many of us as adults, we didn't have an attuned caregiver who modeled emotional regulation, which is the ability to feel, experience emotions, take them for the information that they carry.

Emotions actually do send us information about how we're experiencing the environment around us.

They're very helpful.

And then choosing how we respond.

And I'll be the first to admit, as an adult, I had...

none of those tools.

I wasn't connected enough to my body to know what emotion I was having.

And I definitely wasn't responsive.

I was very reactive.

When my stress got too much, you know, and I didn't speak up for myself enough, I would explode out with anger.

At times, if it got too much and I became too overwhelmed, I would disconnect, dissociate.

Right.

And so learning emotional resilience in adulthood, I think, is a point of shame for a lot of us because we feel like, oh, I should know already how to tolerate my emotions.

And maybe some of us actually do shameful things when we're saying or doing things that hurt ourselves or our loved ones.

Though I find the large majority of us as adults, we don't know.

I mean, here I am at a clinical psychologist, right?

Tasked with teaching other people emotions and emotional resilience.

And, right, I didn't have those tools myself.

Well, emotionally, emotion to regulate your emotions is, I think it's a very hard thing to, as an adult, as a child.

I think they say a lot of things I've read and other experts I've spoken with say, if you can master that, that's like the key to to success in life, they say, which is very hard.

I mean, there's a whole thing on mastering your emotions.

I think it's, again, easy in theory, quite difficult

in real life.

Absolutely.

Like, what would you tell people?

How could they even start to do this?

It's like one of the hardest things ever.

Well, I first want to, I think, explore, get curious, address how we're even defining master, because I think some of us think that what mastering our emotions mean is not having them.

Right.

Right.

Or knowing how to control.

I think this is what it means.

Stop them.

Control them.

Controlling them.

Maybe recognizing what you're feeling and then controlling them or not letting them control you.

Right.

Right.

Basically.

Some version, I think.

When I hear that, I hear like, stop them.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, and again, I don't think that that's not.

That's like a Jordan Peterson thing.

Do you know that?

Do you know what Jordan Peterson is?

Yeah.

He says it's like you have to, that's what he says.

You master your emotions, first recognize them, and then like, that's his whole thing.

Right.

Yeah.

And I

intentionally begin with that because again, like I was just sharing, emotions have value.

We don't want to squash or become so disconnected from our emotional world, though we do want to remain in choice about how we respond.

That's true mastery of emotions, allowing stressful things to happen, allowing us to become upset or angry or sad, and then allowing ourselves to be with it and to support ourselves, seek support.

through it and possibly even utilize some of these tools on understanding that emotions are in the body.

There are things we can do to help us even process our emotions.

And that's what I believe emotional mastery is.

And again, it's a daily commitment to first becoming aware of the emotions as they're happening and to learn then different ways because we all, we all are coping.

There is something we're all doing.

And what it is, typically, is the way we've adapted, the only thing that we could do it at some early time in an environment where that was our only choice.

Yeah, I find this, I also find so interesting that we are picking people doing things in our life based on things that we from our past, right?

That may necessarily not be good for us or emotional care or whatever we're doing, but yet like, because again, we don't know what we don't know.

And though, doesn't that become like a vicious loop?

Because then I'm picking people that are, and you put this all in your like, how, I love this part of your book, right?

Like, well, hold on, I got to go back to this part.

The emotional, what was this this that you said that was so good not the 90 second rule of emotions because i do like that part too but emotional addiction what is what is that exactly and then i'll get into what i'm what i'm trying to like say but i'm saying it very poorly yeah emotional addiction is essentially the familiarity that many of us have ingrained in our in our bodies and our mind bodies um of the repeated emotions in our childhood environment.

So I'll use myself as an example.

Growing up with a lot of stress in the home, that was the the main emotion, emotional climate of my home, which means that in my body, I had my fight or flight response was activated.

I had all of the tension, right?

My heart was tending to the need to deal with that, the threat at hand.

I had cortisol, the stress hormone racing through my blood.

For very long, I would start to proclaim in my heart.

I always kind of joke, but I'm a hippie at heart.

I love two things, freedom and peace.

That's all I want, right?

So now flash forward in time, say i have a peaceful moment i'm not around anyone or there's no active stressor what i would notice is how difficult it it was and before long i would create a stress.

I would revisit the argument that happened in the morning or what could have been an argument, or I'd focus on the to-do list that is hanging over my head.

I'd almost create a stressful experience in absence of one.

And seeing a similar pattern, and maybe it's for listeners, it's sadness.

It's a different feeling.

But what is the feeling that most of my experiences in childhood elicited in my body?

And again, back to that familiarity principle, if you will, for lack of a better word, we become so used to that.

And our body is for me, so using that moment in time where there's no stress, my body wasn't.

My body was in a stressed out state.

My nervous system was activated.

There was probably a lot of cortisol because my body was in that fight-or-flight mode.

So it's understandable when I understand physiologically what's happening because those stressful stories running through my mind about right, the look that I now want to argue about or the to-do list that I want to worry about, that's actually just narrating the messages it's getting from my body.

Because my mind is always just as much, my mind is scanning my body.

My body is sending messages up to my mind.

So my mind in that moment is getting a message that, Nicole, you're in fight or flight, right?

Something, something's happening.

Like my body is sending.

You have cortisol running through your veins.

So we're going to have to now identify what thing is stressing you out.

And lo and behold, here come the cyclone of stressful thoughts.

And if I hook my attention, if I think then about the look, the to-do list, now I'm top down, right?

I'm thinking a stressful thought and continuing a stressful reaction in my body.

And the majority of us as adults, because we haven't, we don't have emotional resilience, which is the ability to deal with something stressful or an emotion and come back to peace to balance to that very utopian description I gave earlier, right?

I'm peaceful, I'm balanced, I'm calm, I'm connected.

If we're not ever going back there, then our familiar is some other emotional state.

And again, we gravitate toward that.

We feel not like ourself when we're not lit up with stress or upset about something.

And again, before long, because our body is in that state, our mind is going to join it and we're going to continue then in that cyclone of that emotional addiction.

And so it's how you break this like because you end up picking, that's my point, was you end up picking people in your life

that

are familiar that may not be the great because you don't know all this stuff or you do and it's what's familiar and then your whole life becomes living out a trauma that you had in your past because then how do people reconcile that like what do people how do you break an addiction like that

at a time when i guess my point how do you break that addiction like all this comes down to like how do you try to control your emotions break the break bad patterns that now that you're aware of because again it's like you can know the trigger, but yet

you come back to that place where it's comfortable.

And it's really hard to then do something with it.

Right.

It's, I keep on coming back to the same piece because I feel like that's what everyone, I think is, that's what everyone's struggle is.

Some people may be more aware than others, but at the end of the day, you can know all the information, but yet still be caught and stuck in the same

vicious cycle of trauma mode, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that might be, and when I would do individual work with clients several years ago, that I think is one of the most frustrating, disempowering places to go.

The more aware we're becoming as we're kind of almost witnessing ourselves do that thing again, you know, and live in the aftermath of it.

I think it can really, you know, provoke a lot of shame and thoughts of what is wrong with me.

Why can't I, you know, change?

Why do I keep doing the same things that aren't serving me?

And all of this just speaks to the point of how important it is to embody those choices and right to do so back to this idea of consistency.

I think another area where we really kind of do ourselves a disservice is when we try to do too much new things, too many changes at once.

So if we do discover we're picking the wrong partners, so we want to, you know, show up completely differently now in this new relationship experience, the more we're going to venture into that unfamiliar territory, the more our nervous system, we're going to feel overwhelmed, the more likely we are to go right back to those old habits.

So it can be really frustrating to patiently and incrementally focus on the consistency of those promises, which can benefit from then the smallness of the choices that we're making, shifting a little bit of the way that we're showing up.

And that all first begins not only in consciousness, but in understanding that we do have the power to create that change in how we're showing up.

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There's a lot of self-doubt.

People are doubting themselves at what they can do.

So they stay in similar situations.

And by the way, it's not even about, it could be a work environment.

It could be a personal, you know, relationship with your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your husband, your wife, whatever it is, you know, but they second-guess themselves and they do have a lot of self-doubt.

So they just like

manage, right?

That's like what people end up doing a lot of times.

It's very hard to

to push past that, right?

I mean, I'm sure you get this all the time.

Like even in your membership group, what is a number, what's the number one thing that you even hear in your business, in your practice, in your membership that people are mostly suffering with?

Is it that they don't know or they do know and yet they don't know what to do about it?

It's

they kind of know, they have an idea, and some definitely know.

Right.

And they don't know what to do about it.

And so, self-betrayal is a word that kind of we use a lot in the membership, which is this idea of all of the different ways we're showing up not in service of us or on this idea that we're not worth it or, you know, we can't is another big one.

And in my opinion, all of those beliefs come from usually our earliest environment where things that happened around us or to us, given the developmental immaturity of our meaning-making system, our brain at that time, we could really only land on a certain meaning for events.

And the typical meaning when people don't show up consistently to care for us, whether it's physically or emotionally, or, you know, we are told to suppress certain aspects of who we are as children, the more consistently that happens, we're not able to understand the dynamics of the caregivers who are giving us these messages or whoever it is that's sending us these messages.

We're not able to maybe understand that our parent can't be physically present because of other factors in their life or their own past experience and history that's causing them to not be emotionally connected to us, to our childlike developmental mentality, all roads lead back to it's something wrong.

with us.

So at our core, most of us humans who don't have the attuned, present, available caregiver because very few of us have that for different reasons for cultural reasons for generational reasons for resource reasons there's a lot of generations that came before us that never learned how to care for all of their needs so they weren't able to translate that to the children.

So so many of us have that deep belief of we're not worthy because someone wasn't available or present as consistently as we needed them.

And that was the only sense that we can make of it.

So then what gets compounded on that, or like you're beautifully saying, all of these ways that we're self-sabotaging or self-limiting or like I say, self-betraying, or we're not showing, we're showing up as if we are someone who's unworthy.

Right, right, right.

And then like, so you say like consistency, being conscious of what you're doing triggers, what are other ways that we can get closer to our authentic self?

When

I very intentionally take us through the journey of creating that safety in our physical body, becoming aware of our emergency,

world, our emotional addictions that are coloring how we're experiencing ourselves.

Because ultimately,

what we want to do is we want to all get to part three.

Well, how do I meet my authentic self?

But you could just like fast forward.

Where is that person?

I was very intentional in building the framework because we can't get there.

You're good at that too.

You did a very good job because you went from the habit, was it the habit self, the physical self, the emotional self, the authentic self.

You also put in there a lot of like affirmations.

So you're a huge fan of affirmations.

I was going to ask you about that.

You, do you believe, obviously you believe they work?

Because I feel like if, unless you feel it from the inside, if you just say something over and over again, it doesn't resonate unless you really believe it to be true.

Do you believe that if you say something over and over again enough, it becomes, you believe it after a while?

In the beginning, you absolutely aren't going to believe it because Beliefs are not only practice thoughts.

This is how I simply define them.

They're grounded in our lived experience.

So the common meanings I've made to this similar thing that's happened so long enough.

So now I believe this to be true about myself.

So that's why when we start to say, if you believe, so I'll use this unworthy example.

If my core belief is how unworthy I am, as it is for most of us, and I start to just affirm I'm worthy every day, your subconscious mind is going to be rolling its eyes and saying, no, you're not, because Actually, that thing that happened this morning just proved how unworthy you are.

That call you're not getting back from this possible date, you know, is just telling you how unworthy you are.

We're filtering our experience in confirmation of our beliefs because we love to be right.

We love to self-confirm in that way.

So to speak to your point, no, we're not.

Every month in this circle, we offer an affirmation that goes along with the content of the month.

How big is the circle, by the way?

We're growing.

It's global.

It's a global membership.

Yes.

We actually have more members outside of the United States than inside of the United States, which for me is very much a point of pride.

Wow.

I'm very passionate about making sure that these messages and, you know, some of these

underserved countries are in the circle.

So because of demand and because we want to make enrollment not feel stressful, not activate our nervous systems in a dramatic way.

We've initiated a wait list process where all everyone who enrolls on the wait list does get an opportunity and we're able to kind of navigate or manage the enrollment process so it doesn't crash our systems.

So every time it does open, there is an enrollment process, but everyone does get an opportunity to wait.

How long is the membership for?

Is it a year?

It's monthly.

It goes on forever.

So some people buy monthly, some people buy the yearly.

We have members that have been founding members for three years now, still in the membership.

And would you get, so not to, I don't mean to like change veer over here, but I was just going to say, like, do you learn, like, do you learn these things?

Because I feel like it was such a meaningful, purposeful thing to do.

The membership, in addition to the community, which is a main reason why people are internationally joining.

We just rolled out a members map where you can drop your geolocation and connect with humans in real in real human form so for a lot of people it's the community that they're joining for though every month in addition to affirmations we put out pdf content on the particular topic with kind of what the topic is what the concept is practical tools how to integrate these lived kind of experiences or tools in action.

Every month I do a guide to meditation.

So you can pop in meditation.

We have a book club.

We have a workshop a month.

I think each week even now we've expanded.

We have four live events, everything from community check-ins to teaching workshops, a Q ⁇ A each month with me.

So it's really jam-packed and people really, we call it self-led, individualized, so that people can really tailor the experience.

So every month we offer a new course.

So there's members working in all different course areas.

It's like a choose your own journey in community with people.

And to go back to affirmations, affirmations is a big part of it.

And the thing I hear most frequently is how often and how little we believe those affirmations.

So in addition to repeating them, I think there's a couple different steps.

First, it's removing the focus of attention from how often you're repeating the old belief.

Because chances are you're going about your day, even if you affirm in the morning, I'm worthy.

Throughout your day, you're probably thinking those critical thoughts of how unworthy you are.

So really choosing to take our, while we can't control our thoughts, and I think this is another misperception people have, oh, I'm just going to stop those thoughts.

No, you're not.

Those thoughts will happen.

They're rehearsed.

They're how your subconscious has made sense of the world.

The best choice you can make is acknowledge them and then remove your focus of attention because an affirmation in the morning is only going to be as strong as how much you're validating, right, this old belief.

So we want to stop validating that by not paying as much attention to it.

So that over time, not only are we laying down the new neural network by repeating it, like you're saying, we can start to be more intentional and begin to expand that filter.

So begin to intentionally see instances, question when that idea of unworthiness comes.

Wait a minute, is this really an indicator?

This person not getting back to me that I'm not worthy right now, or might they be busy with something else, right?

Then we can challenge the evidence that we've been validating an old belief with and maybe over time, let in some confirmation because you're right.

We're not going to immediately overnight affirm something 20 times and oh, right, believe it to be true.

It's again, that more full embodiment process of acknowledging, of living in consciousness so that you're not validating an old belief and of intentionally allowing yourself to see this new evidence.

Is that similar to like act as if, like act as if, you know, pretend like you, because it does, if you, if you think you can or you think you can't, you know, right, you're right, right?

So is that kind of in the same ilk of that whole thing?

In the actions.

In the actions.

Absolutely.

Right.

You know, all of the different ways, especially with unworthiness, if we continue, assuming we're doing the work to show up consciously and rebuild our, you know, care for our physical body and our emotional body, those daily actions will indicate worthiness, right?

The action of showing up for yourself in this new way of saying, you know what, I need sleep and I'm going to put that priority tonight and take care of me or whatever it is.

I'm going to do some breath work because my nervous system is so dysregulated.

All of that in those actions and those daily commitments after you've worked through the resistance of doing this new thing will begin to fill that bucket of worthiness because you are now acting as if by even showing up as someone who is worthy enough to have their needs met, right?

In opposition to that childhood experience, I'm not worthy because this person isn't showing up.

You can be the worthy adult who in the action of caring for yourself can begin to affirm that, you know what, you are more worthy than you once thought yourself to be.

I think the self-worthy, self-doubt, and the self-sabotage, even when, because

when you think you deserve only a certain amount and

you will never pass that threshold, right?

You'll always bring a way to, so I guess it's back to the self.

Are those the two things that you feel also like the other one that people are always mentioning and talking about as a whole?

Because there's so many people who

I think a core, core belief, most roads are leading back to that idea of not worthy and the lived manifestation of how we create the unworthiness into our daily life, whether it's interpersonal and it happens mostly in our relationships, whether or not we do so professionally in our career or what have you.

It's those daily habits that really are illustrating some version of that belief.

And relationships is the next kind of highlighted piece because those of us that are in, you know, partnerships of any kind, which most of us are, and even friendships include it.

often the dynamics, the issues, the conflicts, like you were saying earlier, picking the same kind of person and really realizing that like, I do want to kind of show up differently in my next relationship.

That's the largest, I think, focus.

I feel like also it's so subconscious, though, but you, you know, you can have the right, you, you think that you could be attracted to one type of person, right?

Initially, I guess superficially, not superficially physically, but your brain goes there, even though they're not the right person for you.

How do you're saying also like you catch that?

You have to be conscious of what you're doing to stop the behavior from happening, right?

Is that being conscious first of how you're showing up

all of the ways in a relationship from developing a relationship?

And I am, you know, not as shocked now, though in, you know, I've talked to many people who, in even getting to know someone, whether it's romantic, professional, absolutely, platonically,

so much of us aren't actually focused on our experience of that person.

What we're more focused on is their experience of us.

Right.

Right.

We want them to call us back.

We don't even know if we like them, but we want to call back.

Or we don't like them, really.

And we're upset when we don't get them.

Why?

Is it because we want to feel validated that we want to

external validation?

Because in childhood, right, there was maybe safety, value connection that we were able to create or maintain with someone by putting someone else first by scanning and by looking for the cues that we are safe or connected or accepted by them and then that just becomes our framework so here we are trying to assess the appropriateness of whatever connection it is and we're not actually even checking in with our experience.

And so that for some of us is a first groundbreaking shift that it's more important important that you're interested in this, in this person.

And then how are you showing up when you're there in interaction with them?

Are you attuned to how you're feeling?

Are you attuned to what you want and what you want to express?

And are you doing that?

That's kind of everything that I mean when I say the role you're playing.

And what most of us will see is all the different focal points we have, all the different worries that we have, all the different habits that we have, caretaking someone else or whatever it might be for us.

And we're not actually focusing on getting our needs a part of the relationship equation.

Gosh, it's so common.

There's so many layers upon layers of stuff here.

I mean, there's like, it's just unbelievable.

And like, you're so good at just explaining it and like kind of make, no, you are.

You're

great at it.

We're complex as humans.

I mean, beyond.

I mean, like, everything I have here, like, I was ripped.

Now I'm noticing when I was reading your book, I was like writing down notes, but they're not really questions.

They're just stuff like that I like really liked, like that authentic needs pyramid, but there's no question to it or like body beliefs or physical.

I mean, there's so your, your book is so good.

I mean, it's really, you do such a good job.

Thank you.

You really, really do.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So then again, getting back to how do we, you draw this huge pathway to get to the authentic self, right?

So then what?

Now what's the next step to the affirmation?

Now I understand.

You've explained it really well.

So after the emotional self, after all this, what's the next

so we're grounded, we're safe in our body, we're attuned, we're connected, we know when we're having emotions, right?

We're not repeating the emotions of the past,

we're present, we're here now, right?

And now, where am I?

Right.

So, it's about you know, carving those moments out of solitude, of time with myself, with my thoughts.

For me, you know, it's incredibly important.

I'm someone who very kind of conditioned way of overachieving, focusing focusing as a distraction, all of the things I have to do.

It's very easy up until now, actually, for me not to wake up and go right into work mode.

So that means for me, being really intentional that for me, it's in the mornings, for anyone listening, could be anywhere in their day that you have at least a few moments with yourself, with your own thoughts, with your own.

presence.

So many of us for very real obligations and, you know, all of the other places our attention goes throughout the day, we're not anywhere on that map.

There's no moments, there's no minutes in the day that we actually spend just with ourselves.

So that's a big thing.

Especially with kids, it's also

absolutely

finding the time to make the space to hear yourself.

And what are you listening to?

And then is the next question, because very, I think a lot of us, when we're looking for who we are, this authentic self, I think we're doing what we're habited to do.

We're looking in our thinking mind.

We're looking to be guided by thoughts in our head.

And I believe that this intuition, the guidance of the authentic self that we're all searching for, again, I'm sure not no surprise by this conversation, the trajectory is going, it lives in our body.

It speaks in a more kind of somatic, visceral way.

Some of us kind of get sensations, you know, maybe in our heart space, or we feel, you know, constricted when things aren't meant for us, or we start to feel a lightness and ease, you know, even an excitability when something is meant for us.

For others, it's not the repetitive thoughts that we have.

It's kind of light bulb ideas or just kind of instincts, intuitions, senses, I guess is the word I'm trying to find here that we get.

And without that space to attune to how is it that my intuition talks to me, because it probably will be different than how you've learned your kind of guidance is.

So carving the space to attune to how am I being communicated with?

What is the areas that just come easeful to me?

I talk a lot about flow, finding your flow zone, finding those areas that you get so immersed in what you're doing, you're just in that beingness state.

That's a component, I believe, of your authentic self.

Other people might be surprised to hear that also lives in their passion, purpose.

For me, these are words that I read them in books

through my 20s.

Or just scrolling Instagram.

Didn't relate to them.

Thought that chip was not genetically inside of me.

I must be someone who doesn't have a passion or a purpose.

I told myself this for decades because again, when we're in survival mode, all this goes back to the nervous system: passion, purpose, the future, uh-uh, survival, immediate, right now.

So, it's not that I didn't have a passion or a purpose, I didn't feel safe enough to allow myself to express or even identify what that was.

Now, of course, I will shout from the rooftops.

I'm very passionate about the work I do and feel very purposeful.

I feel like this is what I meant here to do.

But again, a decade ago, when we're in survival mode, we can't have the space to even entertain our deepest desires, things that that we want for ourselves, imaginings, even.

Creativity is not accessible.

So those are all components and might be for a lot of listeners just words that they hear me saying because you could be, right, so stuck in survival that your nervous system won't allow you to be creative, to be imaginative, to connect with your passion or your purpose, or you might not feel safe.

in doing so.

So those are components of the authentic self, which I think maybe listeners now understand why we need to build those those foundations.

While we want to jump to section three, no, I'm sorry, right?

Without the band, no, I'm saying most of us, not you, I was directing this to most people.

No, most people who pick up that book, right?

How to meet yourself.

Oh, authentic self is, oh, geez, how many pages in?

Let me get there.

But without the connection to your body, without the safety in your body, without the steps.

Shifting, right, from the past experiences that are coloring now that might not be accurate, I don't have the safety to connect with what I truly want in this moment.

Yeah.

No, I think that's actually very very true.

I mean, I just tease you because I like all the other stuff actually, because it's, it, it just, it explains who we are more.

Like I said to you, what part of social media do you think has really affected, though, being disassociated, being distracted, all these things that are taking us further and further away from our authentic self?

You know, people say in hashtags, authenticity, body positivity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They were all just blabbity blab words that people are getting very tangled up in.

But I think there's a lot of disservice happening and taking us further away.

Social media, I think, is a tool, for lack of a better word, like

an entity, an object, something we can manipulate and use.

So, like over time, we've had many of those.

Social media is immediately accessible.

So, just like in ages ago, we've distracted ourselves with all the different things we found as a distraction.

And like, now we just have the 24 hours immediately accessible, ping on our phone to do that with.

So I think in a lot of ways, it's not necessarily anything new, though the immediacy, a lot of times you'll hear like the dopamine and the kind of reinforcement of

stimulation.

And now 12-second videos and 15 seconds is too long.

My attention span is not there.

I think, again, it's a lot of stimulation that's at our fingertips.

So, like any tool, I think it can, you know, developing, cultivating, creating a conscious relationship with it.

Because on social media, also lives the playground for our emotional addictions.

I'll share from myself.

I know exactly where to go to find things online that'll stress me out.

In those moments, right, where I'm feeling agitated, it's really easy to be like, you know, what I'm going to go check on that little person over there and see what they're saying now and get myself all upset again.

Yeah.

So, I think it becomes a space too for us to kind of indulge those familiar feelings.

And stress is my go-to.

Yeah.

No, no, me too.

And I agree.

That's why I'm the same.

And I just find it just,

not only does it suck up time that you're actually dealing with what's really important and dealing with your stuff, but it's misguiding a lot of times.

So like picking, I think having people being very,

I think being very specific and targeted in what you're doing and how you're following can help you because the more distracted you are, you know, it's again, taking away time that's really meaningful and useful.

And it's just getting worse.

More platforms, more this, more that.

Like, there's such a rise in mental health problems because of all of this.

I think the more with any choice that we make, the more we become conscious or intentional, right?

We see ourselves picking up that phone to go do it.

We're not even seeing ourselves.

It's just happening.

The more though we do, if we're able, whatever it is in life, if we're able to create

a intentional, though, conscious relationship where we are employing choice where I'm not just oh I'm upset so now I'm scrolling and I catch myself 20 minutes later into the scroll if I'm conscious in that moment even if the same choice is what I make right I believe then we are empowering ourselves because I have then I'm the conscious being who is kind of identifying that I'm stressed out right now and I'm making a choice to go to this thing because in that moment of making the choice, I could just, I could make a different choice too.

And so whether we're talking about eating, scrolling online, anything that we could equally be unconscious and reactive and just be doing in our habits, I think it profoundly changes, even if it's the same kind of action, if it's coming from a consciously chosen place.

So, there are still moments where I will indulge the stress scroll, the doom scroll, or where I'll, you know, distract myself, or I'll kind of numb myself in some different way.

I'll zone out to mindless television.

I'm doing so, though, consciously.

I'm tired, and this is how I'm going to tune out for this moment.

That to me is an empowered space.

Like I said, because I did have the opportunity to say, you know what, I'm not going to do that right now.

I'm going to do this other thing.

That's very different than I have no other choice.

I'm reacting and I'm just knee deep in my doom scroll or my 17 hours of television and I didn't have that point of choice.

Yeah, it was true.

Did in this workbook, Is it like you basically took what worked for you and basically put it into a book for other people, correct?

Like these are all things that you've practiced and done, right?

I worked for me, worked for the community.

Kind of I've aggregated everything from things I've learned in, you know, clinical psychology as a clinical psychologist to more holistic work to watching members, whether, whether, again, I was working individually with clients or now in this more group membership, kind of the universal, kind of what I've seen to be helpful.

Yeah.

Do you, do you ever see a therapist yourself?

I have in the past.

I'm not currently.

I've been in, oh, I was in, for a very long time, I thought I was going to be a psychoanalyst, which is thankful for the couch laying with someone behind me good so as part of my training for that i was in when i was really knee deep i was having panic attacks through my early 20s before i discovered any of this i just thought i was anxious from that genetic chip that i got from my family because they're all anxious too and i was seeing a therapist my first jewish are you like me italian

okay that's why italia um i started thinking therapist at that point and then i continued when I was going to train to be a psychoanalyst.

One of the requirements and also benefits, I think, is being on the couch yourself.

So then I was in psychoanalysis multiple times a week, laying on a couch.

When I disconnected with my family has been part of my journey, learning to create boundaries, I separated.

I went no contact with my family of origin for probably about 18 months-ish.

And when we reconnected, we did so in family therapy.

So I was in family therapy before.

You're speaking to them again.

We're speaking to them again.

Really?

Great.

Yeah, we reconnected through family therapy and then evolved out.

And I have active relationships with my dad, my sister.

I lost my mom last year.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She with she was sickly and kind of struggling for the past, I mean, for her whole life, as long as I've, I've known her.

She had a lot of chronic illness.

And she finally passed.

She had breast cancer at the last couple of years of her life and went through treatment with that.

And she was 84.

She was?

When she died.

Yeah, my mom was 42 when she found out she was pregnant with me.

My dad was 45.

really?

Were you able then?

Were you in contact with her when she died?

Then,

yes, we had been back in contact for probably almost a year and a half, two years.

Oh, wow.

Of time.

That's good then that you had that.

Yes, that moment.

I'm grateful that we had the opportunity to.

So, part of the family therapy was having a lot of difficult, hard conversations that continued outside of therapy of really creating the space.

So, one of the reasons why I made the very difficult decision to take space was I was so enmeshed or just kind of connected to them

that all my previous attempts at creating space or by that time I was living right outside of, or I was living in Philadelphia.

They were living right outside of Philadelphia.

So there was a lot of.

family suppers, Sunday dinners that I was required to and be involved.

You know, a lot of expectation.

And I was really struggling to uphold or create new limits for myself or boundaries in active communication.

So I made the decision to take some space to figure me out, to reconnect with what I wanted, what I needed,

not really knowing how they would receive my requests for space and if they would even be interested on the other side.

I just made the commitment at that point, discovering everything we've been talking about and kind of how so many of my habits were putting them particularly first, other people first,

how I had to make that, you know, kind of bold choice for me.

And I did spend a lot of the time separated from them, wondering, worrying, and unsure of what would happen next.

And I'm very grateful that when I made the decision to reach back out and kind of see where they were at, that they had already started family therapy themselves and were very interested and, you know, were scared themselves and not sure of.

what would happen next, though we're very open.

And a lot of really difficult, honest, helpful conversations were had at that point where I was finally beginning to feel like there was space for me and my experience.

And since then, there's just been a lot of shifts in all the different individual relationships within the family.

I'm very proud of them.

That's amazing.

How courageous of that of you to do that?

Because I think that that could be probably really helpful for a lot of people, but people don't have the

courage to even bring that up.

I used to,

I have always loved California.

Visiting here, loved it, though for a very long time, would just kind of squash because I could never move across country.

My mom would kill me.

So it was not even an option.

An option.

And then I got into the stage of life where I was like, but wait a minute.

Like, I really do.

I really do want to move, you know, and my mom's going to kill me.

So for a while, I would joke and say, I was going to leave in the dark of night.

Just like call them from California one

to let them know.

That's what I did, basically, but I didn't want to.

Yeah, but I mean, to speak to the point, like every decision I was kind of making, I was so vetting through them, by them, how it would affect them.

This applied outside of even.

my relationship with my family.

It was really a very hard decision because there was then a part of me too too that felt like I didn't have a right to ask for space.

What really did they do wrong?

You know,

exactly.

Kind of almost trying to convince myself out of it.

You know, like they weren't actively abusing me.

There was like, you know, nothing catastrophic per se.

And it was really, really hard

to make that the priority.

How did you do it?

And why did you, like, what was the final straw or the catalyst that decided that you're going to do that?

If there wasn't anything so acute, moments, it wasn't acute.

When I realized that I needed to change and put limits up, I did start to do that.

I started to be less available.

I put boundaries up, right?

Stop coming to as many events or coming in a different way for more containers.

And there was a lot, it was hard to do that.

There was a lot of expectation that I'd be there, that I'd be present, a lot of guilt when I wasn't.

So it was enough of those moments where I was kind of living in, yeah, it was acute.

honestly, that's more like,

I, you know, and, and, and me just watching myself not be able to honor myself.

And as opposed to, I, by that point, I knew where that tape played out to over time, because this is what happened in all of my romantic relationships.

I wouldn't get upset.

I was really subconsciously upset with myself, but I wouldn't directly look at myself in the mirror and say, oh, Nicole, this is.

you.

You're not putting up these boundaries or you're not whatever it was that I wasn't doing.

I would point the finger at at that person and say, you're the problem.

And my, what was beginning to happen in my family was the resentment and they're the problem was beginning to happen.

And the reality of it was, I understood that I actually was playing the role by not creating the limit and maintaining the limit, even though it was very difficult, that that was my responsibility.

So to actually save the possibility of a future with them, understanding that the future did have to look different, which meant that I had to start to show up differently.

I had to create, for me, it was space to be able to learn how to show up differently so that when I did show up, I was accountable to myself and I wasn't going to blame them for what happened next in our relationship.

So, you know, that's what you're, you're, I think that's kind of one of your things, like, Unot, I think.

It's that you put the onus on the person, right?

On me or whatever, who, to do the work.

It's not, it's not about someone else fixing your life and your problems.

It's about you taking ownership and having agency and doing it on your own, which is, I think, very, it's a, it's, I think it's like the only way, it's like either teach someone how to fish or you do it for them type of thing, right?

Um, but that's so courageous because when it comes to families like that, I mean, people, people do the play the blame, like the whole blame game, even with like emotional stuff, like that person is not emotionally available.

It's them, not me, right?

Like, how do you tell, what do you say to people or how do you give people advice on how to stop pointing that finger on on other people like oh he's a non-emotionally available it's him it's her it's that person or it's this thing and start taking that on themselves yeah i think it's i speaking from my own lived experience it's a difficult shift to make sure when we live you know very habitual very reactive i think the byproduct is it naturally does feel like it's them because without that space right to do everything we've been beautifully talking about right this thing happened i created this meaning this is what my body's feeling now, right?

Without that space, it does very much feel like stimulus, action, event happened, and I'm just reactive.

And we can disempower ourselves and feel like it's what that person did.

And if you just didn't, I wouldn't have.

And it's natural to feel that way.

So having that very difficult, honest conversation with ourself is the first step.

I had to get really clear that I was someone who blamed everyone else for me and my life and how I was showing up.

And that wasn't serving me.

So that's a difficult, I think, self-conversation to have.

And then just really refocusing.

Okay, if someone's not being emotionally available to you, right?

What part might you be playing?

Are you sharing your emotions?

Because a road that I always come back to is how I'm not being emotionally supported only to discover how I don't.

I expect people to mind read when I need emotional support.

And at the same time, while I'm expecting them to mind read, I actually have my hand up.

I might be being passive aggressive, or I might be leaving the room entirely and not allowing you to support me.

So while I have a need, the message I'm sending, the lack of communication around that need is creating that emotional absence that I was used to in my childhood, right?

So that familiarity of being distanced from someone was exactly what I was creating.

Yet you would have heard me profess up until I met Lolly, how I needed to just find a new partner because they weren't emotionally deep deep enough for me.

We weren't emotionally connected.

So I blamed them thinking that I was showing up as this vulnerable emotional being who was available for this connection when lo and behold, I was disconnected on my spaceship, not aware of my own emotions, definitely not sharing them with someone else and not allowing myself to be supported.

But on the same token, you found Lolly, right?

Who then did give you emotional support.

So at what point is it that those other people were the wrong partners?

And it was just until you met the right one?

With Lolly to this day, there are still moments where I am that person who's come close, but not really.

There's still those active moments, having an available partner who's ready for support.

I still see myself and A lot came up for me around the one-year anniversary of my mom's death this past May when, you know, a lot of sadness, grief was happening for me.

And instead of vulnerably, you know, sharing with my partners that I needed support, I did exactly what I just described to you.

I expected them just to know.

And at the same time, I was passive-aggressive, right?

And I didn't allow them near me.

And then I held them responsible and got even outwardly angry and maybe erupted a time or two.

And how dare you not emotionally support me?

So, right, humans available for emotional support, me closed down.

And that's the reality that.

the role that many of us are playing.

We think we're showing up, connected, grounded, open, right, for love

really, we're repeating habits that are just maybe keeping us closed down, disconnected, unavailable for love.

Right, right, right.

Because that's all we knew.

And that's like, we don't even see how we occur.

We're like totally completely wrong about how we occur.

So again, a lot of this comes back to having self-awareness, though, which is so hard for, I think, to

even if you think you're being self-aware, a lot of times you're just...

quite frankly not being you know and this is why the value of partnerships as much as it's difficult sometimes to hear and this doesn't mean taking in every outside perspective from every person you cross on the street.

Of course, this is your close, confident, you know, trusted relationships.

Right.

But to speak to your point again, we are completely subjective.

We only know what we know.

So a lot of times when, you know, listeners might have heard people say, oh, you know, relationships are teachers.

One of the ways they are a teacher to us is they can offer us this alternate perspective of us.

One that might be really difficult to hear.

It was very difficult to hear when I was being told I was being passive, aggressive, prickly is what Lolly likes to call me sometimes.

Like, you know, and I deny the first thing we do is, no, I'm not, deny it, right?

Yeah, I don't want to hear that about myself.

I'm actually Lolly, you're being prickly, I'm not being prickly, you know what I mean?

So, seeing and hearing, and allowing in a perspective, I think our nervous system gets activated.

You're challenging what I think of myself.

I'm not a prickly person, I'm a loving, warm person, right?

And now, my nervous system is reactive, and I might be screaming, yelling, and defending myself, fighting.

Yeah, I might just dismiss you, and I leave the conversation fleeing.

I might just associate.

You're talking, but I'm somewhere else.

You're not listening.

My nervous system is now tending to this threatening piece of information you're sharing with me.

So, relationships, alternate perspectives of ourselves, if we choose to hear them again, doesn't mean letting in all sources of information.

It doesn't even mean taking it if it's coming from a loved one.

It means hearing it and then getting curious yourself.

Okay, I'm prickly.

Let me go see.

And then being that witness in those moments and seeing maybe from her perspective, am I being prickly?

And if I'm being honest, she wasn't wrong.

She offered me a perspective that I was unable to see.

God, you're good.

Thank you.

What else can we go over?

I mean, I don't know how long, how long have I been going on and on for?

She's like sleeping at the wheel over there.

A long time.

Oh my gosh.

I'm so sorry.

I apologize.

I'm enjoying this.

No, I mean, listen, I'm looking at my watch.

Where's my question?

This is my passion now.

I love talking to you.

I know I was going to say, you probably love talking about it.

Talk,

I mean, this flow state, right?

There are so many moments where having these talks, you know, teaching in this circle or whatever it is I'm doing, I do feel that experience of like,

nothing else matters.

I'm here.

I'm really connected to what I'm saying, to how it's being experienced.

And that's just, again, giving descriptives of what flow could feel like.

And the flow can happen in what?

Wait, so wait, before I go back to this authentic piece, I'm so sorry.

We discover the flow flow when we're safe in our body and we're able to connect with those kind of deeper things that come naturally a lot of us revisit things we're living in our values we liked in childhood right we can go back to what were those early things in life that were of interest to you that came easily that you just like to do probably by the time we've reached adulthood for many different reasons we've probably stopped doing them right right so for a lot of us it means if we don't know where to start or what we like it might mean revisiting to the things that lit us up or we were interested about before the world told us not to be that's right no that's a good point I was gonna, that was my last thing I wanted to actually talk to you about: was that because you're talking about in the authentic self, you know, living out your value, your purpose.

We talked about it a little bit here.

A lot of people just don't know what their purpose is or their value, like we said, but revisiting maybe like what you like to do.

But then there's a whole other argument that, like, maybe your passion should just stay your passion.

Like, do you believe that your passion should become your work in order to live a fulfilling life?

Or what do you have?

What's your belief system in all of this?

i mean

i think if you got lucky you can find alignment and i actually am very hopeful going back to the internet that we were just dismissing earlier i'm watching just society culture resources tools technology even just thoughts around school and systems and some things that were just so ingrained in what you did to get the good job and do the thing that you needed to do in life.

I think things are shifting and changing.

So I think that we're going to see more opportunities for people to live in that alignment of finding, creating, paid work, you know, sustaining life or living their life in a real, in an authentic way.

It could be personally or professionally,

but living for, I think, also living for you, not for someone else's belief of what you should be doing.

100%.

I think that to me is like living authentic.

Yes.

And we get being Jewish or Italian, a lot of people, we get stuck in the traps of what our communities or

our

cultures want for us, which is where we get really, then your whole authentic self becomes diminished.

And I think passions can span

everything, paid, unpaid.

I mean, I think, you know, for many, for many people, parenting our future generations is

their passion.

That's legitimately, you know, their contribution.

And that's an incredible, I'm not choosing to have children.

And that's an incredible child.

I'm not, no, that's an incredible contribution, purpose, passion.

And I think that's an area where

we don't diminish it for ourselves.

We think that that's not purposeful or passionate

for us to do.

So I'm happy actually that we're expanding.

You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be the income or the job in a traditional way.

There's so many passion areas of our life that we can foster, but it all does come back to reconnecting with what we want, what we like, what we're interested in.

And it begins maybe with what we're curious about first.

It always starts with the curiosity, but I'm glad that you said that because it's true.

People tend to just, again, have kids because society tells them.

That's another area.

You're on the other side of it.

100%.

And then you're living a life, even if you didn't want kids, like being honest of who you are and what you want in life is actually very validating to yourself, living true to yourself.

Yes.

Right?

100%.

I mean, is there anything else?

Follow.

By the way, her book is amazing.

Her workbook is amazing.

Although I only have the PDF, but I'm getting the full copy very soon.

It's a great book.

You do such a good job.

You're so good.

Thank you.

I appreciate you, Jennifer, so much.

No, it's the truth.

Tell people if you're living under a wall where people can find anything about you.

The most prolific place that I'm at each and every day.

There are three people who don't know who you are.

As the Instagram account, the holistic psychologist.

We also have a new Instagram account for the new workbook, How to Meet Yourself.

We're going to start to populate that a bit more actively in the next couple weeks.

I have a new podcast, Self-Healer Soundboard.

We release an episode every Sunday.

How long have you had that, by the way?

I rolled it out as a masterclass when How to Do the Work came out.

Oh, yeah.

So anyone who did read How to Do the Work and wants an additional supplement, Jenna and my co-host and I, Jenna, go through a chapter by chapter discussion of all of the concepts in the chapters for each of the chapters of how to do the work.

So that was the first season, if you will, and then we transitioned it into a more open, free-flowing, community-based conversation.

It's called the Self-Healer Soundboard.

There's a YouTube account where you can watch us in video format.

And then it's across across all major platforms.

And my website is another great place to keep in touch: theholistic psychologist.com.

You can jump on my mailing list and stay up to date.

So, all the things.

Come find me all the place.

Pretty much, if you have whatever social media platform you're on, put in the holistic psychologist.

And if I'm not there, I'll be there.

She will be, I promise you.

Thank so much.

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