Episode 186: Cassie Holmes – Award-Winning Teacher and Researcher of Time and Happiness

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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle, Gresham.

Today on Habits and Hustle, we have Cassie Holmes.

Cassie is a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Business and is an award-winning teacher and researcher of time and happiness.

And she is the author of a new book called Happy Hour.

It's based on Cassie's years of academic research and a wildly popular MBA course called Happy Hour.

It really provides practical information of how to think about and spend time to live a more joyful life.

I read this book.

I really enjoyed it.

I like anything that gives you really actionable things that you can really integrate right away.

And this book really did it.

I think you guys are going to get a lot out of this podcast.

So enjoy.

By the way, I didn't even realize how impressive you really are in your bio until you came over, but we're going anyway.

I mean, we're started already, just in case you didn't know.

Yeah.

You know, you are, you went to Stanford Business.

You were a Wharton professor.

Now you teach business.

You teach the MBAs at UCLA and you're teaching a happiness class and of course that you basically created.

Right.

And your new book, or and not only new book, but you know, your debut book.

First book.

First book.

Super excited about.

Right.

And

it's a good one.

It's called Happier Hour.

And I was just saying to you before we even like started, I love this topic.

I love.

when people come on this podcast and talk about happiness and happiness research and how to you know make the best of your life and i your book was and because of your background your book has some I

trust it, you know what I mean?

Like, given the fact of what you do, you're a researcher and everything else.

And it's based on data, and not just my opinion nor experience.

Although, I share my experience and stories to make the data more relatable.

But it is all based off of research.

Yeah.

My one as well as my colleagues.

Which is great.

And that's why that's why I can trust it.

And that's why I wanted to have you on is because it is science-backed, it's research-backed.

And so, who better else to have on to talk about it?

So, let's like jump right in.

So, I'm a like, what really kind of caught my eye is that I'm somebody who always feels, because your book is called Happier Hour,

that there's never enough time in the day.

I constantly feel like, you know, we both have kids who are exactly the same age, seven and nine.

That's two kids, plus we're both working moms.

I'm always feel like hectic.

I feel there's not enough time.

I feel rushed.

And I feel like that's most people in the world.

It's a lot.

And actually what you're describing, this feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it, is what we call in research, time poverty.

So you feel time poor.

And I've actually done research on this to show just how prevalent it is.

So we conducted a national poll and we found that almost 50% of Americans don't feel like they have enough time to do all they set out to do.

And

some people, so moms tend to feel more time poor than dads.

Working parents tend to feel particularly impoverished, but all types of people lack for time, right?

Like, you know, even folks who don't have kids, folks who are not working, you see this sense of having a hectic pace of life with too much to do and not enough time to do it.

And it's actually also a global phenomenon.

So surveys show that across the world, people, there are many people that feel this way.

And it's bad.

And I'm sure you can relate to this as a mom who has your career

rushing around with like a million things on your to-do list.

It is costly.

And our research shows that.

So we find that people who feel time poor are less healthy.

So we're less likely to make the time to exercise.

exercise.

You, though, carve out the time to do it.

And I try to as well.

It's important to me.

And you talked about that in the book.

Totally.

It makes us less healthy.

It makes us less nice.

So when we're rushing around, we're less likely to slow down and help others out.

It makes us less confident.

So we feel less able to accomplish all that we do set out to do.

And related to my research and what I care most about is happiness.

When we feel time poor, we experience less positive emotion, more negative emotion, so more stress, more worry.

And so we're less happy.

And that's a bummer.

Time poor.

I like that name.

It's true.

It's very accurate.

So then how do we manage our time better?

Because it seems like it's much more about time management than really anything.

And I think, you know, that's a skill, right?

That people are either sometimes better at than other people.

I'm actually not that great at it.

I mean, it's weird because I am a very type A personality and most people like that are much more like, do, do, do, do, do, but I can get like lost in things.

Like, maybe it's more my, I also have ADD.

So like, I like focus on something too long or whatever.

And I think, again, what I'm saying is something that a lot of people deal with, right?

Like maybe poor time management.

So how do we create a situation for ourselves where we can be more time efficient with our, like, be more efficient with our time and manage, learn to manage our time better?

Yeah, and it's such a good and important question.

And I just want to sort of flip that because what happier hour is all about and what my research and what I've been sort of set out to do for the last 12 years in my research and then what I teach are MBAs

is that it's actually

you shouldn't be driven, or I don't want to you shouldn't because that sounds all judgy.

It's okay.

More judged way.

More joy comes from our time when it's driven by what's worthwhile rather than just efficiency.

And I think so often we are driven to get things done because we want to be productive.

We are doers.

That's right.

But with respect to time management, it really is about investing more of your time in what's worthwhile.

And we can talk about what's worthwhile

and less of your time

in wasteful ways.

And that is absolutely not me being judgy.

And I can talk about how you can identify for yourself what are more wasteful ways to spend so that you're maximizing worthwhile time, minimizing wasteful time so that at the end of the day, you know, that crazy day where you're rushing around, you're not like reflecting back and being like.

Man, I'm exhausted and I did a lot, but I feel like nothing actually got done.

And instead, you're like, oh, that was really fulfilling.

I'm exhausted, but I'm satisfied.

And so it's really about how to make your days feel fulfilling, not just overly full.

And it is about management.

And actually talking, going back to even your framing of the question, you refer to it as a skill.

And It is a skill, but it's one that can be learned.

So it's not like you're you're good at time, you know, how you deal with time, and you know, I am not.

It is, and that's actually really what my course is about.

So, what I teach at Anderson at UCLA among our MBA students is a course that is called Applying the Science of Happiness to Life Design, which is exactly that.

So, based off of the science, there are

things that we can be informed in our decisions of how we should invest our time

so that

you feel happy in the day-to-day

and more satisfied when you're evaluating your life overall.

So I called it a skill.

I called time management a skill very

very deliberately right because I believe and what I do and what I talk about on the podcast and outside the podcast is a skill is something that can be learned by anyone, right?

Like I think there's talent and there's skill.

Skill, it's practice, right?

Anyone could get better at something if they practice and if they kind of are, they want to get better, right?

They may not be proficient and become an expert necessarily, but they can always get better from what they were.

So, what are some tools that people can do?

Do you have like strategies or tools where we can become better with this?

Yeah.

Okay.

And so, I love now that you've sort of shared your use of the word skill.

It's absolutely a skill.

Good.

I'm glad that you also agree.

Yes.

Yeah.

So

figuring out how to spend your time for to feel sort of more fulfilled.

There are strategies and the book is all about those strategies.

So I give exercises that are the same assignments that I give to my students.

And some of them are about reflecting back to identify how are you spending your time and sort of pulling out, pulling out what are those ways for you personally that you spend that are worthwhile.

So, what are those ways that feel satisfying while you're doing it?

That looking back feel

good.

And also, what are those ways that are wasteful that you're like, oh my gosh, I am spending my time in this way and a lot of time.

So let me describe.

So for instance, one of the exercises is time tracking.

And so what

I sort of instruct you to do is over the course of a week, and I would actually suggest two weeks because it is a more sort of complete representation of the activities that fill your day-to-day life, is track

each half hour writing down, what are you doing?

What's the activity?

And not sort of a broad like I'm working or I'm with my family it's like being more specific but in addition to writing down what you're doing really importantly is rating on a 10-point scale how satisfying how happy how joyful is that activity

and with that at the end of the week or the two weeks you have your own personalized data.

So you can look across all of your activities.

What are those activities that are closer to the tens?

Right.

What are those activities that are like inevitably twos and threes?

And also, as you look at the sort of most happy and least happy activities, you can even pull out what are dimensions, like commonalities among the most happy, commonalities among the least happy.

And that can actually be quite revealing.

And you can see how much time you're spending on these types of activities.

So you can see, for instance, and

like in line with actually what the time tracking research shows,

in looking at what my students have pulled out, the commonalities of their happiest times,

inevitably, it involves social connection, like genuine connection with other people.

And I mean, this, if you're talking about the sort of research into happiness, that is the most sort of fundamental need that we have beyond like our physiological needs of like, you need to have shelter, you need food, you need water, you need rest and health.

But beyond that, like our most basic fundamental psychological need is a sense of belonging and connection.

And when people are reflecting and looking at their data,

that's what you sort of pop out.

And you can also see, like, it's not like all socializing feels really connecting, but you can see for yourself, like, I know

my connection, my sort of happiness comes from one-on-one conversations.

Like, right, right, right.

I want to learn about you and I want to share about me.

Like, it's that one-on-one connection.

Whereas, like, my son, the most extroverted person in the world, he's like, the more people in the room, the better.

The more people that I can make laugh, the better.

And it's not about that.

What?

It's less about the more of a deeper.

You're talking more deep connections.

Like, what you're saying is, I agree, like with me, I prefer like one-on-one, deep, like kind of like intimacy in a way, but in a way.

While there's other people who are much more grandiose and it's like they're more surface relationships or social connection.

Yeah.

And that's kind of

perhaps.

I mean, I would say that my son doesn't view it as surface.

He views that as like his source of like happiness.

Joy.

I was going to say, my husband is very much like your son.

And he doesn't see it that way either.

You know what I mean?

I just see it that way because I don't like to talk about the weather.

I don't like to talk about like super, like,

I think they're superfluous things, right?

But if you ask someone who is an extrovert like that, they don't think it is, right?

Yeah.

But and all the people I've had on the podcast and all the research experts and happiness experts, I should say,

and people who live the longest, like for longevity, it always, you know, comes down to social connection to some capacity, right?

Like having a community, having a social connection.

So this is not like, this to me is like, yeah, of course it's going to be social connection because it's way above and beyond.

It's like the most, it's, it's the, it truly is.

It's a, it's the thing that kind of like fills us the most at like at the end of the day, right?

Totally.

And what's really

important and impactful from this time tracking exercise is that A, you can identify for yourself what is the, what are the activities or the types of activities that make you feel particularly connected and give you that sense of belonging.

Right.

But also,

it's quite illuminating to see, like, you're like, you know, as we all reflect back and, you know, your folks that you've spoken to and the research all shows, social connection is the answer.

But in our crazy busy lives, as people are looking at how they spend their weeks,

it's like those happy connections, like meeting up with your sister for dinner or like, or meeting up with friends for drinks, Like, we have busy lives, and we're like, I don't have time for that.

Right.

Right.

But also, what you see in this data is like, we don't have time or we don't make time for those really important, fulfilling ways of spending.

Yet you can see like in the data that you're spending, not you, my students knowing that there's

a whole lot of time in ways that are wasteful.

Like

social media.

Like social media.

It's more distractibilities.

Like it's just distractions.

Like social media, like you're saying, these are time sucks that put you through a rabbit hole that you don't even know you're really doing at the moment.

Right.

And then, but once you have the data in front of you, you're like, holy cow, I am a busy person.

I don't have time to

cultivate these really important relationships, but I spent a dozen hours this week on social media.

Like that is helpful.

That's good information.

So then you can be like, okay, going forward, I will make the time to meet up with friends for dinner and i will not like it's even that data that information that is so concrete and vivid you're like okay i'm not gonna pick up my phone and check real quick you know of uh what's happening on you know the feed exactly so it's like the time tracking is a really great tool then because it shows you in real time what you were doing and how you know you do have time like that's what kills me when people are like oh i don't have time to work out really you don't have time to work out but you have time to like just scroll your phone and you know like dilly dally i mean we all do it right yeah i mean the truth of the matter is like that's what but this is again back going back to being more um basically managing your time better right totally and that time tracking helps you manage your time yeah but does it help with like does it at the end of the day it may help with like what i find happens a lot even with myself is sometimes you can have all the data in the world right and i know exactly what i'm doing wrong but then the execution to fix it is where you get stuck.

Like I still get distracted by social media, even though I know it's a time suck and I don't want to be on it.

I can't help myself.

Well, yeah, you can't.

I mean, I could, but I don't know.

But it's helpful.

It's important to have the reminder.

So it's like you have the data that's really vivid.

And then

there are other exercises that I have that is the get-moving exercise.

So basically, this is totally up your alley of the importance of exercise.

And when I ask people to complete this sentence, I don't have time to.

Things that people say are exercise, they don't have enough time to get enough sleep, they don't have enough time to read for pleasure, they don't have enough time to cultivate the relationships, you know, the hang out with the people that they love so much.

But exercise is one of these things that it is absolutely worth making time for because it is a mood booster.

It actually, because

what time poverty is, is this feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it.

But what exercise does by increasing a sense of self-efficacy and self-esteem, it actually increases your confidence of being able to

complete and accomplish what you set out to do.

So,

you know, running that thread, it actually makes you feel like you have more time.

It limits or it sort of lessens that sense of like, oh, I'm limited because I don't have time.

You know, when you make the time to do, go for your morning run or when I make the time to go for my morning run, even though I'm like, oh, do I have the time?

I don't have the time, but I make myself do it, then I'm ready.

Like I'm like, bring it on day.

Like I can do all of those things that I want to do.

I totally, not only do I agree with you, I have a book coming out soon.

I love that you said self- I saw that in the book too, the word self-efficacy.

And I think that the fitness thing,

the correlation is so on point

with all the research that I even did with this stuff, because

it's fitness to me or exercise, I should say, isn't about doing the squat or the lunge necessarily.

It's about what the after effects are from that particular, you know.

thing is that you're doing.

The self-esteem, the self-confidence, the feeling that you actually,

the feeling of productivity that you get from it that allows, all those are the the byproducts that will help you throughout your day with all the other stuff you're trying to like conquer.

And you said something that I wanted to ask you about.

Um,

you talk about this like two to five hour thing that I thought was really, really like, um, I thought was really interesting.

That

anything,

you know, you feel, well, you could talk about it, but talk, tell us about this whole

two to five hours of free time is the sweet spot, like, yeah, of, of time, man, of not time, man, of a happier hour.

So, the two to five hour great.

And before I do, I just want to say, like, yes, on the importance of exercise as well as sleep, actually.

As and I talk about that from the time tracking.

It's not one of those exercise or activities that necessarily pops up as really important for your happiness because some people don't actually feel all that happy when they're exercising.

But what you do see is following exercise, you see the ratings increase.

So it is like I call them mood boosters where

doing exercise, getting enough sleep, not, it's not so, I mean, it's not as much about how you're feeling while doing it.

It's really, it colors all of your subsequent activities in the day.

So it is absolutely worth the investment.

By the way, I like that.

Did you say that?

Because I think that's exactly what I say too.

That it's not, do you think I wanna be doing a squat and a lunge and run every morning or whatever?

I'm like you, you run every morning.

I mean in the moment of doing it it's not you're not doing it for that half hour that you're exercising but a day is 24 hours right but the after effects again throughout the at the 23 hours or the 48 hours or the week that's what you're that's what the aim and the goal is it's not for that like finite 30 minutes totally right so but it's like it's like a mind shift that people have to understand right it's not

you it's like one of those things where people don't understand like you you don't know unless you know you have to kind of go through it to understand in a way.

Yeah.

And it's not like, so my book is called Happier Hour, but it's not about like

every single hour.

It is about all of our hours.

Like our hours sum up to our weeks, our days, our days, weeks, decades, life.

And so it's like, to the extent that you can invest your time in ways that color all of your, that make this, you know, sum of your hours, that is your life happier, that's worth the investment.

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What are you waiting for?

So getting back to the sweet spot of time, is you're saying between two and five hours is the sweet pot, a sweet spot for

feeling time affluent, right?

Is that more or less?

Kind of.

So

the

motivator for this particular

research was we wanted to see, and it actually stemmed from going back to your initial question of like, so all of us, I mean, so many of us feel time poor.

And I

start the book by sharing, you know, like one of those days that I was running around.

I was earlier in my career when I was a professor at Wharton and I had just had our son,

like he was four months old.

and I agreed to give a talk up in New York.

And so, I'm like, get up early, like, miss my morning snuggles, and then back-to-back meetings, give this presentation, and then going to this networking dinner and rushing to get the last train that will get me home to my son.

And I remember that night on the train, I was exhausted.

I did make the train, but I was exhausted.

And I was like looking out the window, and it's like, everyone's asleep as, you know, like the houses are whizzing by, and it's so dark.

And I'm like, meh.

It's like, it's all going so fast.

Right.

And I was like, I don't know if I can keep up.

And at that time, I was like, I think I need to quit my career because it's just all too much.

And I can't keep up.

And this is a career that I love and work so hard for.

And then I was like.

thinking, I was like, if I quit, then I can move to like a sunny island and spend my days relaxing.

And wouldn't I be happier?

But that question of would I be happier?

Would we be happier if we had a whole lot more free time in our day was something that as a researcher I could test.

And so I did.

I decided like, let me hold off on my decision to quit and see

would we be happier if we had a whole lot more time?

And so we analyzed data.

We conducted a bunch of studies, including analyzing data from the American Time Use Survey.

And what that does is it looks for tens of thousands of working and non-working americans how they spend a particular day and from that we calculated how much time they spend on discretionary activities so we could see what's the relationship between how much discretionary time people have and their happiness and what we found was really interesting and surprising so this is the two to five hours that you are mentioning.

What we did find not surprising because that was me on the train and that was motivated your opening question.

with too little time too little discretionary time we are unhappy so less than about two hours or a data in that data set it suggests less than about two hours of discretionary time in the day we are less happy what was surprising was beyond having about five hours of discretionary time in the day we are also unhappy and that is also like

do not quit.

Like, don't quit your job.

And the reason for that is getting back to some of the themes we've been talking talking about already is like we want to be productive.

We want to have a sense that we're accomplishing something.

And so if we have like days and days, like our regular days on end with nothing that feels worthwhile that we're produced, then actually you see that dip in sense of purpose and less satisfaction.

But

between about two and five hours of discretionary time in the day, you see actually it's pretty flat.

And so that means that it's not so much about how much time time you have, it is how you invest it.

And this is like so helpful in so many ways because it means that for us that are time poor, A, don't quit, particularly if your job is a source of, you know, satisfaction and productivity, makes you feel purpose.

Right.

But two hours isn't totally outside of the realm of possibilities.

Like actually at that time, I was like, there's no way two hours in the day.

There's like no way.

But once you actually calculate in your day,

how much time, like, what are those ways of spending that you wouldn't have wanted to spend in any other way?

So, you have kids, like there are, and sure, there are also like ways, like

ways of spending with them that you're like, hmm, not as fun.

But those like moments, and not only moments, like, you know, the 20 minutes where you're like digging in, I don't like, I can speak for myself, like

reading to, you know, at the end of the day, those like, you know, as we're in bed, putting them to sleep, that reading, this thing, like it's those like really, that's 20 minutes there.

Even though commuting, not very fun, but talking during my commute to like my best friend, that is time that I love.

At dinner, when I, you know, pour myself a glass of wine and I'm chatting with my husband about our day.

Those things add up.

So it's like I'm an hour and a half.

of ways that there's no other way I would have wanted to spend that time.

So two hours isn't totally outside of the realm of possibility.

So it doesn't have to be consecutive.

It could be just throughout the day, right?

So like, as long as it adds up between two hours and five hours, it doesn't matter if it's, you know, 26 minutes here, 10 minutes there, as long as throughout the day, you're getting that time.

And then you talk about like the strategy of bundling, right?

Like if you are like

maybe doing it is that I'm not sure.

What is the bundling strategy?

And actually, before we move on to bundling, bundling, it's really important to recognize that those two to those ways,

the times that you're spending in those ways that are like happy times, it's also paying attention during those times.

So it's not just doing the activity, right?

Yeah.

It is.

paying attention during those activities.

We are so distracted.

So research shows that we, our mind is somewhere else other than what we're doing almost half of the time.

And, you know, like our cell phones or smartphones, that is a major source of distraction.

So

if

you only have the, you know, an hour and a half or two hours of like time that you're spending and exactly how you want to be spending it,

pay attention during it so that you get all the happiness that's potential and right there in front of you.

And try to the extent possible, remove distractions by putting your phone away during those times.

It's not like put your phone away always, but for those happiest ways of spending, like make them no phone zones.

So, phone goes away to the extent possible, try to quiet, you know, our to-do list that's like running through our heads constantly.

But how do we do this?

This is all again, nice in theory.

How do we do it in reality?

So, another exercise that helps in doing this, it also might bring a tear, is

counting times left.

So, for these these sort of things that bring you joy,

if you reflect back over the last week, you know, you're like, what are those moments where you felt most joy?

Oftentimes, it is with the people that you love so much.

And it's like a very mundane, oftentimes everyday experience.

And what happens is because they're so everyday, we think they'll continue to happen every day.

And so we take them for granted.

Like we don't pay as much attention.

Right.

But

if you

count

the times you have left.

And so that includes.

So for me, for instance,

a coffee date with my daughter.

I, this is like a 30 minutes within the week that I love.

Like it.

What did you do?

I thought you do a nail date.

Well, today I'm going to go on a nail date with my daughter.

The coffee date happens in the morning and we do it once a week.

And it is something that what could be very routine and like thoughtless, it is what actually stemmed out of me needing a cup of coffee on the way of dropping her, you know, at preschool.

And so something that's very functional routine, what we did was we turned it into a ritual.

So it became special.

And it is special.

And it's like in that specialness, it's like we know exactly what to expect.

So we anticipate it while we're in, you know, she has her hot chocolate.

I have my coffee.

My phone is away.

I am paying attention.

Like, this is our 30 minutes of like us with each other.

And then.

Where do you guys go?

Do you guys do it at home?

Do you guys go to Starbucks?

Coffee shop.

Okay.

Living in Westwood.

Profeta was our coffee shop.

And I love it.

Oh, yeah.

It's no longer there, right?

Or is it there?

Oh, it's there still?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

And it's delicious and yummy.

And

they probably would not enjoy having, you know, a seven-year-old come, but they have come to appreciate us and expect us on the mornings of our coffee date.

What day did you, I mean, give me more details

on Thursday mornings before work, or what is your routine or sorry, ritual?

Yes, it is, and it all sort of stemmed out of dropping

Leo off, his carpool off, and then we

go get our coffee and hot chocolate.

And she gets her hot chocolate.

We get our croissants.

It is delightful.

And then I drop her off, and then I go into work.

I love that, that's a great ritual.

It is, it is

really

important.

And actually, going back to this, the sort of overarching takeaway from those results of that sort of two to five hours, it highlights that it's not about how much time you spend, it's really how you spend that time.

So, those 30 minutes, it's not a lot, but it is so impactful as to my sense of satisfaction because like my closeness with my daughter is like, I, you know, am I happy?

Yes.

Am I busy?

Yes.

But why am I happy?

Because I have these wonderful relationships that I love so much.

I feel a sense of connection.

I feel belonging.

And it comes from being creating these special moments.

And going back to the times left exercise and calculating.

So like, say, I included the coffee dates when she, I was on maternity leave.

So I'd like bundle her up and we go to the coffee shop, then our weekly coffee dates.

I and then I actually think forward, how many of these coffee dates do we have left?

Not a lot because

you know, when she's 12, she's not going to want to go to the coffee shop with me.

She's going to want to go with her friends.

And then she's going to go off to college.

And then she's going to move to a different city and live in New York like I did, you know, and then it will be on visits.

And so I calculated that we have 30% of our coffee dates in our entire life left.

And she's only seven.

And

what does that make me do?

It makes me spend the time.

It makes me carve out and like prioritize spending that time.

Yeah.

But it also makes me put my phone away.

So it's like, we do have choice.

Like when we have these very vivid reminders of just how precious our time is and can be, that's the motivation you need to be like, oh yeah, I know I meant to have put my fun away, but you're like, oh my gosh,

we don't have a lot of this left.

So yes, like I will put my fun away.

So thinking of time in terms of

not just years, what would it be like, not just hours, but finite

amounts of time that we have, like calculating the math behind the particular

thing that you want to do.

And when you see that number, like visually, like, oh, I only have 20 more dinners with this thing, because you know, a friend of mine does this very well.

He created this thing called build your own, what's it, uh, build your own resume.

Jesse Itzler is all about like time management with this thing, which I think is a really smart idea because it shows you in front of you how many of X, whatever it is you want to do, you have left.

And so then you're kind of like, in a good way, forced to put things on your calendar so they actually get done.

Otherwise,

right?

Otherwise, they're just like ideas and dreams in your head, or like, I will do this one day.

And that one day comes and you've never done it, you know?

Like, totally.

Yeah.

And it's so important because,

again, like our hours sum up to our lives, but you need like by recognizing just how finite the amount of time in our life is, that you're not thinking about the stresses of like hour to hour.

You're actually thinking about what's the life that I want to lead.

Yeah.

And that brings

reverse engineering.

You're basically like working backwards.

Yeah.

And once you identify what are those

times of joy, those really worthwhile ways of spending, then I have a whole chapter in Happier Hour called Time Crafting.

So based off of all this reflection and these strategies that I give throughout the book, how do you actually design

your week schedule so that

you are putting those

most worthwhile activities?

Like my coffee date with my daughter gets in that calendar first.

No matter what.

Meetings get scheduled around it.

It is non-negotiable.

It's non-negotiable.

And then like also like even, you know, work,

there are work hours that are like that big, you know, the big thinking, the strategizing.

For me, it's like the sort of deep thinking of like, what are the learnings from the work and how do I sort of relay that?

But we have these sort of parts of our work days that are really joyful because they're sort of aligned with our purpose and our long-term goals.

And then there's a lot of waste.

So making sure that you do make time for that important work time and happy and satisfying work time right?

And minimizing the time for waste.

So, time crafting sort of pulls some of these strategies together, including bundling.

Sorry, going back to your question.

Yeah, including bundling.

No, no, no, it's good.

It's good.

So, what is bundling?

So, bundling from the time tracking, you will identify there are things in my day that are not fun.

They get those low happiness ratings, but you have to do them.

And I'm sure you can be like, What are the chores of your life?

Grocery shopping.

Grocery shopping.

And

is there a way, if you can't outsource it, which grocery shopping you actually I don't like to outsource it, though I'm using it because I think you get like shitty stuff when you give it to someone else to do.

So for you, it's not something you're not willing to outsource.

Nope.

I don't like to outsource lots of stuff like that because I think then people never care as much as you do, right?

And certain things are, anyway, this is a whole other podcast, but like, you know, I like to go to Costco by myself.

That's like, I think that's a great stress reliever.

But how do I, I call my mom when I do it?

Yeah.

And so that's what bundling is.

For these activities that are not particularly fun, but you have to do them or you're going to do them.

It's bundling it with an activity that is fun.

So

is it fun?

Sometimes it's not that fun calling my mom while I'm, but I get what you're saying.

I think it's more bundling things you have to do together.

Can that be bundling too?

It doesn't have the positive effect.

Okay,

that's for sure.

Okay, go ahead.

So you actually are making the activity worse.

whereas if you say you called a friend or you listen to you know, uh, podcast habits and hustle, right, and so you're learning.

I was kidding, mom, by the way, but I just want to say that right off the bat.

She's gonna, I'm gonna get a ton of people like, what do you mean you don't like talking to your mom?

I do love talking to my mom, but my point is, you want to do a positive activity with a chore that's kind of more looked at as not so positive, yeah, because it makes that time fun, it makes it feel worthwhile.

So, you know, I mentioned one of the things that people don't feel like they have time to do is read for pleasure.

If you listen to an audiobook every time you're going grocery shopping or you're getting in the car, you can actually get through a book every week or so.

And so that, you know, reading, it's wonderful.

You learn, you're like increasing your empathy.

Like I love to read and it's one of those things I don't feel like I have time to do, but I list, I fill, I bundle it with the times that are unfun.

And it makes me actually excited to go grocery shopping because I get to hear what's happening next in the book.

Yeah.

So exactly.

I love that.

And I think that's a really, when I read that, it like resonated because I see that.

Like, I, I,

and to be fair and be honest, what I do is I, I try to bundle, probably not the way you kind of call it bundling, but

I do sometimes do that positive bundling.

But sometimes I just bundle like the, like things I have to do kind of like, I call it more multitasking, I guess is what you're calling it, right?

But I call it, but that's a good idea.

So then like in your brain, are you saying that when you take the kind of chore-like activity and you bundle it with more of a positive thing to do, does it change the neuro, like the way your brain

changes how you experience it.

That's what happiness is, is like how you feel in it and how you feel about it.

On a cellular level, does it actually make a difference or you don't know about that portion of it?

I haven't looked at it at a cellular level.

I'm interested in the subjective experience because that's what you do.

That's more of a neuroscience kind of question, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it makes it more fun.

And that's like, if the goal is, given that the goal is to make more of your hours feel worthwhile and happier, then that's how you do it.

Yeah.

That's one of the strategies to do it.

You talk also about the eulogy, which I can kind of, that is, that to me was a really good, I love that part because that would make i think anybody kind of like stand up and think like rethink right yeah and it's going back to what you said it's sort of reverse engineering so it is leading you to think about your life overall

um

and so what the assignment is and my students

well anyway it's you know like It's impactful and it's poignant.

So what I have them do and what I, an exercise that I share in the book to imagine, like at the end of your life.

So imagine you live a long life,

write the eulogy that you think would be given about you.

And so what that leads you to do is write the life that you want to lead.

And what it pulls out, it's like, what are the ways that you, how do you want to be described?

What legacy do you want to leave?

This is very valuable, right?

Because it forces you to, the eulogy does force you to really think about those things.

Totally.

It It clarifies what does matter to you.

And so by having that very,

you know, like defined for yourself, the things that matter to me, the things that matter that I am,

that broad perspective informs how you spend your hours, right?

It's like,

oh, this is, this is important to me.

This is how I'm going to behave

so that I am ultimately going to be living the life that I want to live.

So it's really empowering.

So like some of my students are like, that is depressing, but really important.

And then other students I've heard that it's really empowering because it shows you, like shows many of us that we're actually already living in some ways, you know, our ideal self and our ideal life.

And it also motivates us to do so.

Like we have control, we have agency, we, you know, in how we, how we spend our time, how we approach our time,

such that we feel happier and more satisfied looking back.

Because the goal is

both to feel happy and satisfied in our days, but really so that we don't look back with a sense of regret.

Absolutely.

I mean,

I agree.

I think people tend to feel, right, especially when you're young, that you have all the time in the world to do something, you know, like, oh, I'll do it later on.

Like we were talking earlier, right?

Yeah.

And,

you know, having this, like kind of having this kind of be brought to the forefront, I think, is really important.

Not just for like, that's why I don't think this book is only for like, or your research.

It's not just for people who are in their, you know.

mid, like they're like 40 or above, right?

It's for people who are younger who also, because it makes you think differently about how you do live your life and like how you do spend your time, right?

Yeah.

And

there is like a finite amount of time we all have, whether you people like to think about it like that or not, right?

Yeah.

So, and yeah, and that's the goal.

And that is what I have seen the impact of on my students of these lessons, as well as folks who have

read the book so far is that it really does shift our approach to our days.

And it's really, it is like existential, but very attainable.

It's just, you know, how do we spend our time so that our days are ours, so that not only are we sort of reallocating towards these times that are really

like we need to do, they are like give us that sense of fulfillment, but also we're really invested while we're spending it so that it has as much of a wonderful impact as it can.

So we do feel as much joy as possible, which is so often right there in front of us.

And it's just like paying attention and, you know, spending the time on it.

Right.

What was the most

surprising piece of research that you found

when you wrote the book?

Well, I actually think the opening that I

shared was that the answer to this

frenzy is not to quit.

Like, and I think that...

I think that too was very interesting.

And it's also notable, you know, in with the great resignation.

The

last couple years have, I mean, it's interesting.

I've been doing this research for a dozen years,

but I used to have to like motivate, like, happiness is important.

Time is important.

But actually, the last couple of years has shown us that we can't take our emotional well-being for granted.

Like with anxiety rates going up, depression rates, it's like, oh, we need to take care of our emotional well-being.

We like happiness is important.

We need to figure this out.

Same with time.

It's like it used to be that I would have to tell young people, as people get older, they do start to recognize that their time is precious and they start to savor more.

But what this has shown is young people, it's like, oh, like we also can't take our lives for granted.

And so wanting to find that meaning and spending our time better.

And that is what's, you know, driving leading to this great resignation where people are like, oh, I'm going to quit my job.

I know.

And I think that this,

that our results, our data showing that actually

having, you know, days wide open to spend however you want.

isn't necessarily the solution.

It is given the time that you have, making sure that you do spend it in ways that feel worthwhile to you.

So I also will say that among folks who do have a lot of discretionary time, if they spend it in ways that feel productive and purposeful, then actually you don't see this dip in satisfaction.

So retirees

who do volunteer work or who have a passion project

or individuals who do are not working, but they spend time on

hobbies that are personally enriching or really sort of connecting with folks in genuine ways, you don't actually see this dip.

So really, it's not about how much time we have.

It's again, how we invest the time that we have.

Absolutely.

I also, the whole idea though, like, you know, if you want something done, give it to a busy person, right?

Because is it because people who just have too much time, do they just, do their brains just become like, they just become more.

Well, the busy person, you know, that they will say yes because they've said yes to all the other things that make them busy.

But I think

something in motion stays in motion, I feel.

Like it's like the yeah.

But that busy person, that's the person I'm talking to.

I'm like, you need to be more purposeful and let you say yes to

and

making sure that you're protecting time for the really important stuff.

Yeah.

No, I love this.

Thank you.

I think that was based.

Is there anything else that I've?

No, I think.

I think we covered.

One thing I wanted to ask you:

commitment devices.

What What is that?

That is

with this recognition that

it is very easy for us not to make the time for these moments of joy, these activities that are really important for us,

is making sure

sort of having a commitment device to make sure that you do it.

So an example here is, you know, again, going back to that sense of connection that's so important with my husband, like we are great teammates, teammates, right?

Like, we are

both working, we're parenting, and we are

doing it oftentimes in parallel.

And

with the busyness of things, it's very easy to sort of lose our sort of like

conversation and connection.

And so, carving out the time for date nights where it is not about us being teammates, you know, doing it alongside each other.

By finding each other as you wait, pass by, yeah.

As like like sitting across the table and being like, how are you?

Right.

Partner, friend, love of my life.

But it's so easy not to do that.

So an example of a commitment device is to pay for a standing babysitter who will show up at your house that day each week, whether you're in the mood or whether you feel like you have work or whether, whatever.

And they show up.

You've already paid the money.

So you are going to go out.

And that's your commitment device.

Because once you are out or when we are out, even though I'm like, oh my God, do we have time for this?

Once we're out, it's like, oh, this was so important.

Yeah.

So that's an example of standing babysitter.

Good.

I'd like to.

I wanted you to say that because I think that's important.

I think you got to like put things in front of you to make, like, sometimes you don't, you know, to make sure you actually do these things.

Right.

Like, right.

So that's why I wanted you to say that.

But

anyway, so thank you.

This is great.

So how do people find you?

And the book is called Happier Hour.

And it's definitely worth picking up and reading.

And Cassie, if people want to know more or want to find you, what's the best thing if they're not a student at Anderson?

I mean my website, www.cassiemholmes.com.

I follow what I teach and I'm not on social media.

Good for you.

I am on LinkedIn, but I'm not, you won't find me in other places.

But my website does have,

shares about my research and then the book, Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most, pulls all of these learnings together.

And

so

that's how folks can learn more.

Thank you.

Thank you for being on the podcast.

This was great.

Thanks.

This was fun.

Thank you.

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