Episode 183: Jason Feifer – Editor in Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine and Host of the Podcast Problem Solvers

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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits and Hustle.

Fresh it.

Today on the podcast, we have Jason Pfeffer.

Jason is the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

He's a podcast host of not one, but I believe three podcasts.

He's a book author.

His new book is called Built for Tomorrow.

He also is a keynote speaker and a startup advisor.

Jason does a ton of things and he wears lots of hats and he's a very interesting guy.

I loved this podcast.

We had a great time talking.

His new book is really about resilience and how you can thrive in a time of change and how you can change with the times.

It was very just like the book is great.

There's a lot of thought-provoking ideas.

Jason gives a lot of tangible, practical things that you guys can do, which is something that I always love when guests do.

And this, like I said, this was a great conversation.

I hope you enjoy the podcast.

Today on the podcast, we have Jason Pfeiffer, like Michelle Pfeiffer, who is, of course, the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

He's a podcaster.

You are a dad.

You've got some, and also you are really funny on social media.

I have to tell you.

I follow you.

You're welcome.

I appreciate that.

No, you're welcome.

Are we recording right now?

Why not?

Yeah.

Why?

Okay, great.

We're doing the, this is it.

This is the intro.

That's my intro.

There's nothing super fancy about this podcast.

Let me tell you.

We go, I told you, I'm just going to just start talking and, you know.

whatever it be, it will be.

So yeah, I was being honest.

And I was being sincere.

I do follow you on Instagram.

I find you to be very funny and very clever.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And you do before, I mean, before you were the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur.

And I should also, by the way, say, he's also an author, right?

And his newest book is called Built for Tomorrow,

which, by the way, I read this last few days.

Very good book, Jason.

You're a good book.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

I appreciate that.

You're welcome.

So you do it all.

I mean, how do you have time?

By the way, you don't even have one podcast.

Do you have like, what, two podcasts or three podcasts?

Well, I have two currently.

I had three, and I aspire to find the time to go back to the third.

Okay, so you how do you do that?

Plus, the run the magazine and be a dad and do all your other side hustles because you have to have a lot of side hustles given the fact of what your book is about, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know I have, I have even more.

I do, I do a lot of startup consulting, I do some television development, um, I do a lot of traveling and speaking.

So, no, I do a lot.

Um, okay, so here's how I do it.

I think of time as a balloon.

Um, you know, here's the thing: you don't expand a balloon in order to fit air into it.

That's not how a balloon works.

Right.

Right.

How does a balloon work?

A balloon works that you blow the air into it and then the balloon expands.

Time is the same way.

So if you were to say, you know, I

would love to do that other thing, but I just don't have the time for it.

Well, duh, of course you don't have the time for it.

Nobody has the time.

Nobody is like, you know, I just happen to have an hour and a half every day that I don't have filled and I'm looking for something to fill it.

It's like not how it works, right?

Because

we all operate under, have you ever heard of Parkinson's law?

No, I have.

Is that in the book?

I didn't see it.

I don't know if Parkinson's Law is in the book, but it should be because it's one of my favorites.

So

Parkinson's law states that work expands to fit the time allotted.

So if you have a lot of time to do the work, it will take a lot of time.

If you have a little time to do the work, it will take a little time.

That's how we work.

We work under Parkinson's Law.

It's just true.

Now apply it to like literally everything you do.

So this is why I love deadlines.

So,

you know, you will never have, the point is you will never have just like time.

Like, oh, I have an hour and a half.

So instead, here's what you have to do.

You have to think of your time like a balloon.

A balloon expands under pressure.

Time expands under pressure.

So if you add more things, then what it will do is force you to reconsider all the other things that you do and the ways in which you do them.

And so you will start to think, you know, this other project that I have, I bet I could do it a lot more efficiently.

What if I started to do this?

Or, you know, okay, now I'm finally pushed to get the assistant that I didn't have and I'm going to stop updating my website myself or like whatever it is.

You will be forced to rethink everything that you do so that you can fit more in and importantly, probably drop some things that you shouldn't be doing anyway because it's a waste of your time and it's not getting you anything.

And now it's being, now you're being forced to really consider it.

So that's how I do it, right?

Like I add.

I'm a big adder.

And then I basically, I think like, I will add this and then I will figure out how to make it work.

And then I do.

And that means that I change everything else around me.

And as a result, I get to do more and more.

That's a great beginning to this podcast.

A great answer and a great soundbite.

That is 100% what I actually do too.

It's also why they say if you are, if you want something done, you give it to a busy person, right?

Because it also, right?

Because the more time someone has, the less things actually get done.

Yes, that's totally true.

Because the busy person is

in the business of figuring out how best to use their time.

Right.

I am overloaded, but I still keep saying yes to things.

And the reason is because I know that I will just,

I will figure out how to make it work.

And I like saying yes to opportunities.

And I think that it's worth figuring out how to say yes instead of saying no.

I'm such a believer in that.

And it's such a, it's, it's like the antithesis of what people always say, like, oh, you have to be laser focused on one thing to be successful.

Like a lot of people's, my brain, a lot of people's brains, a lot of

entrepreneurs' brains don't work like that in this silo of I'm going to only do this.

Like it's not like in reality, it doesn't really work in real life, is what I'm saying.

So, yeah, well,

I think that it is completely dependent upon the individual and how their brain works, right?

Take no advice from somebody who says, Here's how brains work and here's what you should do.

Instead, why don't you say, Let me take an assessment of how I work best and then craft my day around that.

So, for example, I know that my

sharpest thinking and my sharpest writing happens in the morning.

Later on, I don't know.

I'm just not as sharp.

I got too many other things in my brain.

It's hard to get the words out.

So I will do my absolute best to schedule zero things between 9 a.m.

and 12.

Like I guard that time as preciously as I can.

Now, sometimes things will have to get through and that's fine.

And I deal with it.

But I know that's when I'm going to do my writing.

And then the rest of the day is when I'm going to do other things.

And I try not to force myself to switch between modes too often, particularly later in the day.

So, for example, like today,

I'm talking to you.

This is my, this is my second podcast, but like third or fourth thing where I was like on, right?

Because I had like a meeting before this, right?

I was on video and had to be on.

And, and I like, I like stacking those things together because then I can just get my brain into the, like, you're the animated guy who's going to talk a lot, like offer things.

Like, that's my mode right now.

Right.

And it's a lot harder to be in that mode and then go switch to like administrative tasks mode and then like go back to being the animated.

Like I would much rather just kind of stack it all together so that I'm using myself as efficiently as possible.

I understand how I work and I'm building around it.

I love that.

So what are the kind of daily habits that you have that are non-negotiables?

Do you have anything that kind of keep you on point?

Like what time?

Do you wake up the same time?

Do Do you have a very particular morning routine?

I know you say you write between 9 and 12 or you keep that kind of your the writing portion of your day.

Yeah.

That's really it

because every day requires so much of me.

I don't have, you know, people tell, people talk about their like morning routines and I always think to myself, do those people have small children?

Probably not.

Because I will tell you, as a father of a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, like a morning routine is not possible.

I mean, we have now trained trained the children, uh, like dogs to, um, to like not wake us up until 7 a.m.

So that's great.

Uh, I try when I'm, so I'm here in Colorado, uh, where I'm talking to you right now over the summer.

And uh, so I'm like right near a lot of nice biking and hiking trails.

So I try to like run out for half an hour before the kids have to get ready for camp and do a ride.

Doesn't happen every day, but it feels really good when it does.

But no, you know, I

try to think of each day as an individual project that I want to run as efficiently as possible.

But every day doesn't have to be the same.

That's funny you say that.

First of all, I'm very much about a morning routine and I have two kids, seven and nine.

Amazing.

Yeah.

And it's, it's hard though, because you're the truth is you have to be malleable and flexible with your morning routine if you do have kids.

It's not going to be exactly like I leave it kind of like loosey-goosey.

As long as I work out in the morning at this point and like, you know, have a lot of, drink my water, I basically feel okay, like I'm sticking to it as much as possible.

You know what I mean?

Right, right, right.

But right, I do, I do know, yeah, I do know by the way, that if I, it's like around, if I haven't eaten breakfast, yeah, by about 8:30, a brain fog sets in that will not go away the rest of the day.

Like, that the scariest part of my day is if my morning is so packed that 8:30 has come around and I haven't eaten breakfast, and then I think to myself, damn it, like, I'm gonna screw the entire day up because of this.

So, um, I'm just doing breakfast, by the way.

I mean, it's the best meal of the day, I think so, but like 99.9% of people come on this podcast, they are all intermittent fasting.

They're doing this, they're doing that.

So, like, because it's very fatty, and I'm like someone who loves breakfast.

And I, I've, you know, I've tried it many times not like to kind of skip that meal, and it just does not bode well for me or anybody around me.

So that's crazy.

I, you know, I mean, look, I'm, I'm not a health coach, so don't listen to what I have to say, but what I know is you're not.

Your recipe is so full of everything.

I'm full of health coaching.

I know.

I did spend a couple of years working at men's health for what it's like.

Well, I was going to say, right?

You were at men's health for a while.

So there you go.

Yeah, that's your

reputation.

So

I asked a lot of celebrities for their workout tips.

But

I,

you know,

I hear about intermittent fasting.

Look, like, I'm a big believer in, if it works for you, fantastic.

But don't, what I, what I like really want people to not do is to hear of this stuff and think, oh my gosh, there is, there must be a better way.

And I must rearrange my life for this thing that feels like some kind of secret.

because it it may not be you know fine maybe intermittent fasting it works for some people maybe it comes out of some period of time in which this is how we ate as people but you know what we also had two sleeps are you aware of that there people used to yeah like pre

you know so i mean first if you rewind far enough right the obviously we go we have electricity before that we had like gas in the home which was actually quite dangerous um and then before that you had candles which is like in in movies in which people are living in like medieval times everyone's walking around with a candle.

But actually, candles were extremely expensive.

So most people couldn't afford them.

So

it was just dark.

So, you know, for most of human history, some went down.

It was dark.

Really?

Candles were really expensive back then?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

You are a plethora of information.

I got to tell you, through this book, there are so many stories

that you pulled together.

I'm like, the amount of history you know is amazing.

There's a reason for that, which I'll tell you in a second, but just to complete this thing, which is which is that, so anyway, so people had people had two sleeps.

It was called first sleep and second sleep.

And so generally, you go to sleep when the sun goes down and then you wake up in the middle of the night.

This is scientists hypothesized that this is the reason why sometimes you kind of like have a little bit of consciousness in the middle of the night and you're like, what time is it?

I don't know.

Let's not wake up and you like fall back asleep.

The hypothesis, unproven, but hypothesis is that that's actually an echo of how we used to sleep, which is that we didn't sleep through the night.

We would have first sleep and then we'd be up for a little bit and we would, we would do some stuff.

We would pray,

we would have sex, we would, you know, whatever.

You'd do whatever you can do in the dark and then you'd go back to sleep and then you'd sleep until morning.

And that's, yeah.

So, but you don't see everybody doing that now, right?

Like that's not, that's not a.

And the piece completely changed once there was available lighting and then suddenly there was like a night and night, night things to do in the nighttime and that the idea of nightlife, like completely shifted the way in which we live our lives.

Anyway, the reason I'm really into history and I am is because

one, I think it's just important to know where we came from.

But two, often

we are living right now through

our own story, right?

Like whether that's a personal story or a cultural story, and we don't know how it's going to end.

We can debate how it's going to end, but there's no way to really know.

But if you go back far enough in history, you can see how the story ended.

And so when you're trying to understand like, how do people navigate change?

How do people introduce things that feel radical?

How do people overcome panics?

If you go back in time, you can see how the story ended and you can draw lessons from it that can apply to today.

Where if you're trying to talk about how something happens now, it's only hypothetical.

And so, I think it's really important to see like the full thing.

That's true because it's about how do you well, your book also is about adapting, new changing, having you know, adapting to the new normal.

By the way, what made you, with all your projects that you're doing, what made you decide decide to write a book now?

Like, why now about this?

So it's funny.

I, okay, so there are like a couple of things to answer there to explain it.

Number one, I have this podcast called Build for Tomorrow.

Same name as the book, Build for Tomorrow.

And the podcast, Build for Tomorrow, is very history-oriented.

What I like to do is understand how change happens by looking back through history and

seeing like what don't we understand about the things that we're talking about now?

What are we missing?

How can we better understand the things that we are concerned about now?

But also, how can we see how change happened in the past and then feel better about our own changes?

And so, like, that leads me in all sorts of crazy directions, like

deep diving into why America went through a national moral crisis, like a national moral crisis over teddy bears, 1907.

Like

schools were banning teddy bears, priests were preaching against teddy bears, right?

Like if like Fox News and MSNBC were around in 1907, like teddy bears would have been the topic of the day.

And so it's like, why?

Why did that happen?

And so, I mean, I can, I will answer that for you, but I'm going to answer your original question first and then I'm going to go back because otherwise I'll never answer the original question.

So

anyway, so I have this podcast.

I'm very interested in history and how change happens.

And then I'm also, I've been observing through my work at Entrepreneur Magazine that the most successful people are the most adaptable.

And so I had these two threads of like, change through history and change right now.

And I'd been thinking for a while, what do I do do with all of this?

It's really, it feels useful and insightful and it helps me with my own life.

But like, what am I supposed to do with all this?

And then

the panda, and I'd been like kicking this around with a friend of mine named Matt, who

is a book agent, who was also just the dad of my like son's best friend when he was four.

And

then the pandemic began.

And in like April of 2020, Matt calls me up and he says, hey, you've been thinking about doing a project about change.

Everybody in the world is going through change right now, and they are going to for years and years to come.

Now is the time to write a book about change.

And I was like, oh my God, you're right.

And sitting down and being forced to do it really helped me bring together all of these insights and things that I had learned and make it feel coherent and useful.

Like sometimes the best thing that you can do for yourself is just give yourself a project because it will force you to be really clear about the purpose of the work that you're doing and it will draw out the absolute best of it.

Like I had all these ideas and stories, but I didn't know really how they fit together until I was forced to do it.

And I forced myself to do it.

You know, Matt and I worked on a proposal for the better part of a year.

Then we sold it to Penguin Random House and off to the races we went.

So anyway, that's why I did it because

I had gathered all this stuff and I didn't know what to do with it.

And then the time came.

And

the lesson there for anybody, I think, is.

Do things without knowing how they're going to pay off.

Like that's do things without knowing how they're going to pay off because at some point the opportunity will come for them to pay off and you will be prepared, right?

Like if Matt had called me and it was like, everyone's going through change, maybe you should think about doing something.

And I was like, I don't know what to do because I haven't talked to anybody about this for the last five years, but I had, I had talked to people for the last five years.

So don't worry about just do it.

Do it.

Do it.

Gather.

like follow the things that you find are useful that you that like help you through the world and i guarantee you that you will find a way in which that's useful for others this is exactly why i really loved your book because i thought thought it resonated with me because so many of the things that you talk about is the things that my philosophy in life and I think that like a lot of people I speak to also feel the same way.

And you do it in a way that's very palatable for people.

I love with your stories and everything else.

But you said something that you're welcome.

What you're talking about, and I agree 100%.

Like, are you saying it's kind of like having transferable skills, right?

Like you may not know at the time what you're doing, but those skills are going to be, can be very beneficial later down the road that you had no idea that even that that opportunity would even exist.

But you did this and this and that that you got good at that then now you can you can use those towards whatever that other opportunity is.

Yeah, that's right.

I think

another way to think about it, I like the, I like the phrase transferable skills.

Another way to think about it is, but you're setting yourself up for the zigzag payoff.

Yes, I was going to say that.

And then you put that in the book as a zigzag.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a zigzag, right?

Which is like, you don't, it's not a straight line.

People think that they, that they like have a goal and then they're just going to go and meet it.

And it's like, it never works that way.

Instead, what happens is that your path is something that when you look back on it, it makes sense because you know that like, well, I did this and I learned this and then that enabled me to do this thing over there.

And then I did that and I met that person and then they were right.

But like.

To anybody else, it looks chaotic.

Yeah.

It's like, well, how did you do that?

How did you start over here?

And then you did this thing.

And then you went, it doesn't make any sense, but it does over the course.

And so the thing that you need to do is enable the zigzag payoff.

And so here's, I mean, mean, just sort of like an example that I give in the book is, so let's say, um, let's say that somebody is a regular listener of, of Habits and Hustle and they love podcasts.

And, um, you know, nobody's asking them to start a podcast, but maybe you should consider it.

Why?

Well, all sorts of good reasons.

Probably not, to be honest with you, probably not because your new podcast is going to be awesome.

I mean, let's just be frank, right?

Like,

probably not, because there's literally more than a million podcasts out there.

Growing a podcast is super, super hard.

And it's a skill that you have to learn.

And you're not good at it initially.

You know, it's like funny, like, everybody tries to do these conversation shows, but most people are bad interviewers.

And most people are bad at being interviewed.

And so

it's easy to do it wrong.

But, okay, let's say you start a podcast.

And let's say you start a, let's say, you love comedy podcasts, despite being a habits and hustle listener.

You know, you're like, you know, what I really love is like just like good old guffaws.

So

you start a, you know, you start a pod, a comedy podcast.

You're quirky and cute, though.

I swear.

I swear, you're like a character onto itself.

I swear.

So let's say

you start a comedy podcast.

I appreciate that.

I just say things and people react.

But you're also very bright and you retain so much information, which makes you a really interesting interview and someone that like it's a pleasure talking to you.

I don't mean to interrupt you, but that's what's going through my head.

You can interrupt me for praise all day.

It's fine.

So

let's say you start a comedy podcast and it's a bad comedy podcast because most comedy podcasts are very bad.

And

so nobody listens to this podcast.

So maybe you think that's a failure.

But then

because you have purchased all this recording equipment and you've taught yourself some basics about audio editing, maybe some friend comes along and they're like, hey, I have a band.

You have a microphone and some stuff.

Can you like record our demo?

And you say, sure, I don't know how to do that, but I'll figure it out.

And you do it and they're happy and they tell their friends.

And now some like other bands are contacting you.

And they say, Hey, can you record our stuff?

And eventually, eventually you're like, You know what?

I got a lot of people calling me.

Maybe I should move into a studio.

So then you move into a student, you rent some studio space, and people are coming in.

And then eventually, this thing is growing.

And you've got a reputation that eventually says, You know what?

I should start my own studio.

And now you started your own studio.

So you started a crappy comedy podcast that nobody listened to.

And it actually turned into a business doing something totally else.

That's the zigzag podcast, zigzag path.

And it will never ever happen if you don't start the thing first, if you don't just do the thing without knowing what the ROI is.

Did you create, did you come up with that whole zigzag

kind of

name?

Yeah, I was just trying to, I mean, I remember, I remember sitting like on the porch trying to, trying to think, because my own career has been like that.

And I, and I was just trying to visualize it, right?

Like, how do you, how do you, I found that people remember things best when you give it a name and you associate like a story and a big idea with it.

And so, um, and so I was just trying to think, how do I communicate what this is?

And I was, you know, and I, and I kind of just pictured, it's like you're going this way and that way.

And I probably tried a couple different metaphors.

And then I realized it's just a zigzag.

That's what it is.

It's a zigzag.

And then, and then once you know what that is, you can kind of follow the logic and you can see how one thing leads to another in a way that's crazy, but totally makes sense.

So, someone like you, though, would you say that you are, if you have to say one thing that like everything kind of comes from, is it like you're just a really great storyteller, a communicator, a writer?

I mean, they're all in the same area, right?

And is it what would like if someone said, hey, Jason, besides I'm the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur, what would you say your thing is?

Because you're doing so much stuff.

Yeah, so I, um,

so the thing that I think is, I tell stories in my own voice.

Like, that's my line for myself.

Um, and I think of myself primarily as a storyteller, um, which is to say that, like, my, my skill is to, is to

hear things and figure out how they can be best communicated.

Um,

but I will tell you, underneath all that, I actually think that my real core skill set is that I'm a pattern matcher.

And I think that that's not unique to me.

I think that we're all basically pattern matchers.

Like, at our heart, the thing that makes people human is that we're really, really good pattern matchers.

And it's just, it's just like some patterns come more naturally to people, to some people than others.

So, for example, um, the thing that I'm really good at is matching patterns related to communications.

So

I can read,

I was trying, I didn't know how to write a book.

I've never written a book.

All the people in the world, someone like you who has written for every magazine, I mean, you're totally different.

Yeah, but it's totally different.

Writing a book is completely different from writing a magazine story.

It's completely different.

And I was like, I don't know how to do this.

So, you know what I did is I just like started going through some books and I figured out what the pattern was.

Like, what is this author doing on a chapter by chapter basis on a micro and a macro?

Not long ago, we were, we were an entrepreneur, we were

we were we were kind of by email

trying to work up some good marketing language for some banner ads that we were putting together, whatever.

Anyway, like, you know, it's not, I don't know anything about that.

I don't know banner ads.

So what am I going to do?

Well, what I'm not going to do is just sit there and like bang my head against the wall because it's not going to come naturally to me.

I know that I'm a pattern matcher.

So what does that mean?

That means that I go and I google best banner ads and I go and I go through like 50 of them and I see what the pattern is.

What are people doing?

And once I see enough of it, I know how to repeat it.

And the same is true for podcasting.

Like, you know, sort of listen to enough.

I have, I, I have a narrative, my podcast is like a narrative produced podcast, right?

It's not a con, it's not a conversation show.

It's like this scripted thing.

And so what did I do?

I went and I listened to a bunch of them and I was like, okay, I understand how to do it.

And that's just, that's my pattern.

Other people, I think, know how to,

they've been in enough businesses that they understand really, really well how to solve particular business problems, right?

Like I talk to people who are like, my job or like my skill set is walking into a business that is hemorrhaging money and figuring out how to stop the bleeding and start growth.

That's like, that is a very specific thing.

And that means that that person's.

skill in pattern recognition is understanding like what are the things that need to happen when you walk in how do you identify problems how do you start to solve those problems in this business?

Everybody's got that.

And I think it's worth thinking about.

Like, what are the patterns that you match?

For me, it's communications, but for someone else, something else.

Yeah, I like that pattern matching.

That's a really good way of putting it also.

So that's why you make, that's the whole storyteller in you.

You're taking information.

This is what the book does.

And you make it that people understand what you're saying by, because

you're creating like some kind of like premise around it in a way that's very palatable.

like I said.

I, yeah.

So here's what I, it's funny because now I'm going to tell you this thing and then you're going to like listen for it the whole rest of the conversation.

So I

came to realize that the key to any kind of speaking, whether it's on stage or it's

talking to you right now, whatever it is,

the key is

this theory that I came up with, which I call the theory of interlocking parts.

I don't think this is in the book either.

I don't know.

I have too many of these things.

It's not.

I didn't see it, but I'm writing it.

Yeah.

I don't think it's in there.

It's the theory of interlocking parts.

And here it is.

So, to be a great speaker, what you need is to build a menu of like three to five-minute interlocking parts in your head.

What is an interlocking part?

Well, it's three things.

An interlocking part has three components.

It has a name,

like the theory of interlocking parts.

It has a big idea.

and then it has ways to express that idea in story form.

Generally, either I tell a story about myself learning to do something or I tell a story about somebody else learning to do something or I do both.

So that's the interlocking part.

And

when you have enough of those in your head, then every time somebody is asking you a question, every time you are asking me a question or you're like not even asking me a question, you're just kind of reacting.

What I'm doing in my head is I'm basically rifling through

everything that I know and figuring out which one best matches whatever you're talking about.

And like, you know, whenever I'm on stage and it comes time for Q ⁇ A, like, you know, I have, I have a talk that I give.

It's like a 45-minute keynote, which is built around some of my like.

these interlocking parts, but I can, they're modular.

I can like take one out and I could put another one in.

But then also when we do key, when we do Q ⁇ A and people are asking me questions, as soon as somebody starts their question, I'm thinking, what is the answer that that I have available?

And right.

And the reason for that is because what I want to do is give people the best, most coherent, most thoughtful material.

And those are things that I've just worked out.

I haven't like practiced them, but I've just said them enough.

And they're interlocking parts, which means that they can just snap together in whatever order I need them to snap together.

So that, right?

Like you, at the very beginning of this conversation, you asked me something about time management.

And I was like, time is a balloon, right?

Like I, I, I know that.

I came up with that like a year ago.

I like it.

Uh, every time somebody asks me about time management, I was like, time is a balloon.

And it's like, but it's a thing, right?

It's where it's got a big idea and it's got a story.

And

it's just like, it works.

So that's how I communicate.

Yeah, no,

it works.

It does work.

Have you done a TED Talk yet?

Not yet.

No.

Oh, okay.

That should, you should put that on.

Yeah, I did one.

You should put it on your list.

And I, you know, I have a book coming out also in a couple of months.

Or yeah.

Congratulations.

No, yeah, thank you.

I'm not telling, I'm just telling you that because I know it's like a writing a book is very, very, very, very different than writing an article or writing some type of like speech of some kind, right?

Like, it's, it's, I don't know, I found it to be extremely stressful and anxiety-ridden, but that's me personally.

I don't know about you, but

yeah,

you know, but you're, but you're much more, that's what you do, that's your part of what you're thinking.

Yeah, it wasn't that anxiety.

You know, the thing, the thing that gives me anxiety is launching the book.

Oh, tell me about it.

Like, that's the, that's the thing.

Like, you know,

the greatest advice anyone ever gave me, which is totally true, is like marketing the book starts basically the second that you start writing the book.

Like,

you should be building your contact base of people who you're going to ask for favors for years in advance.

Years in advance.

This is not a thing where you reach out to everybody three weeks before book launch.

Like, no, no, no, no, no.

I know.

I'm looking, and you have, like, I'm looking at your testimonials or your, you have Gary Vee as your quote.

You normally, usually my guy, my, sorry, my, my publisher wants four or five really good ones too, you know, like just on that part.

And then, of course, the pre-order sales.

It's all in the pre-order sales.

That's just, you know, there's so much that people don't, like, under the hood that people don't really understand about it unless you're doing it.

And it's, you're right.

It's extremely, that part is extremely stressful.

I am

incredibly mindful and patient about

how I develop relationships with people and what I ask them for.

for.

I will ask for something

once every

five to 10 years.

I don't ask because when I want it to matter, I want it to really matter.

I have known Gary a very long time

and frankly, given him a lot of press.

I mean, he's been an entrepreneur quite a lot,

deservedly so.

It's not a favor.

People love Gary.

But I know Gary, you know, and

I've never asked him for a single thing.

And the reason for that was because I know Gary, people ask Gary for, I mean, Gary must just, he's just must be inundated with requests for everything.

And

so I am only going to ask Gary for something.

I'm going to ask Gary for something like once, and it's going to really matter.

And

what I asked him for was to blur the book and also to be on his podcast.

Yeah.

And that's it.

You know, but like, I, I, I have people who will like ask me for, you know, like random people would DM, hey, can you, can you comment on this LinkedIn post?

It's like, dude, that's your ask?

Like, this is such a badass.

I totally agree.

I think that's a very good point.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's,

I,

I believe I'm really not into transactional things.

I think that you build relationships and those relationships just sort of have a natural like give and flow to them.

Um, but that also, you know, every once in a while, you ask somebody for like a favor to kind of go out, uh, go, go do something a little bit extra for you.

And, um,

and it is, it is my belief that if you focus on relationships first, such that nobody feels like you're asking anything, like the reason you know them is because you want to ask them something.

Like that, people hate that, right?

Totally.

But if you just develop a nice relationship, then I think the thing that you just need to do next is just be really mindful of their time and their capacity.

And

just like

make sure that the interactions that you have are meaningful and that you're giving more than you're asking.

And in return, you'll basically get all the help that you want.

I mean, listen, it's easy for someone like you to say, right, when you also are the editor-in-chief of a big magazine or media, media, yeah, online, whatever you want to call it, where at the end of the day, it behooves people to also do that, do that with you, right?

Because it would not be smart if they have something that they're launching or they want to be like, you know, like, what would you say to a regular person?

When I say a regular person who doesn't have, who's in charge of a media

company or a magazine, where it's like in someone's best interest also to be nice to you, right?

So, yeah, I would say you make, I mean, look, you make a great point because people want things from me and therefore I have this leverage, which I, which I'm really careful not to use.

Really, it's hard, though, because that's just who you are.

Because I know,

I know that

I could just email a ton of random CEOs and publicists and whatever and basically say, hey, will you support the book?

And they're going to feel like they have to.

They're going to feel obligated to do it.

I do not want that

because that's not fair.

And

it's also an inappropriate usage of the position that I have.

So the only people that I've reached out to to help me with the book, and yes, I know a lot of high-profile people because I, because I'm in the position that I'm in, the only people that I've reached out to are people who I have developed real relationships with, who I like, who I, who, who I feel confident know that I'm not asking them something as a way to lord over that if you don't do this for me, then you're not going to get something that you want.

I don't ever want that.

I'd like, because, because here's the thing, life is long and, or hopefully it is.

And, um, and, and like, you don't, what you definitely don't want to do is like play all of your cards all at once.

Um, all right, like I don't, I don't want to, yeah, I could probably abuse my position and sell more books, but then I'm also just like this jerk that people don't feel good about.

And that's not going to serve me well or serve the brand well.

And then like both me and entrepreneur should, you know, march for, march along in time.

Like, so, um, so instead, what I do is, is I just be, I'm really, really careful about it.

Now, what, what should the person, somebody do if they don't have the kind of access that I do?

I think the answer is step back and think what kind of value you do have to others, because I guarantee you that you have plenty.

I remember talking to this woman, She-Ra, who started Goody Girl Cookies, this line of gluten-free cookies.

You can find them basically anywhere.

And

she didn't know how to run a...

CPG company when she started out.

And so she was like, well, what do I have?

And the answer is that she used to be a publicist.

So she understands marketing and PR.

And a lot of people don't understand that.

And that's pretty valuable.

And you know, she wasn't like a celebrity publicist.

She didn't have like, you know, it wasn't like she was able to knock on every door and just have it swing wide open.

But when she would reach out to people and be like, hey, can you explain to me how manufacturing works?

And I know your time is valuable.

So what I have to offer you is that if you need some help conceptualizing your PR strategy,

that's a thing I know something about and I'd be happy to help you.

And doors opened.

Like she just basically, she helped people and they helped and they helped her.

It was an exchange of information and it was really valuable.

I guarantee that you listening now, like you have something.

You know something.

You have access to something.

Whatever it is, you have something that other people want.

You are an expert in something that other people are not an expert in.

And that is useful and valuable.

And

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What are you waiting for?

You also talked about in your book, you, you know, people should be doing that.

You did this.

So you said, like, what, what do you have?

What do you need?

And what's available?

Right.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah.

Right.

And I think that's a very, like having these like systems in place for anybody to really kind of like work to help them get to the next place is very, I think is super important and helpful.

Yeah.

So I'll explain what that is, what I have, what I need, and what's available.

So are you surprised that I knew that or I had that written down?

I love that you, you know, it's so, it's so funny that you pulled that out because I was doing the,

I was doing the audio book of the book.

And, um,

and so which means that you sit down in the studio for three days and you read your book and a director is in your ear being like, do it again.

Pillow talk.

Pillow talk.

That's what my director kept saying.

Pillow talk.

Right.

Because I was going too fast and I was too loud.

Pillow talk.

So,

so,

so anyway, like, I got to that part which I had written down, which I had forgotten that I wrote down.

And I was reading it and I was like, that's a real, I should say that more.

Like, I wrote it, but I don't usually say it.

Like, it's not a thing that usually comes up in interviews.

I have, I, I know, I haven't built it into any talks.

I really like that thing.

And, um, and so then I, I wrote it down.

I like, I wrote it down.

I was like, use it, like, use the, what I have, what I need, what's available.

And so I have over the last month, tried to work it in more because I just really like it.

But you're the first person to just yank it out of the book and ask me about it.

So that is validation.

So I appreciate that.

I saw that because when I said it out loud, your eyes kind of like lighted, like lit up a little bit.

So I had to ask you about that.

You're like, whoa,

that's great.

I read the book for something.

No, I mean, at this point,

I believe you've read the book.

So, okay, so here's the story.

I started my career at a tiny newspaper in north central Massachusetts.

I really hated it

because it just

wasn't what I wanted to do.

It wasn't that exciting to me.

I had these ambitions of doing big things and I didn't know how to get there.

I didn't have the skills that I wanted, that I needed.

And so as a result, here I was sitting at this job that I didn't really love.

And so I was trying to figure out how to get out of here and how do I build my career and build towards something that I, that matches my ambitions.

and um, and by the way, I don't know if you can hear in the background, um, but like it is literally impossible to escape the sound of a lawnmower.

You just cannot escape it.

Yeah, I hear a little bit, but that's okay.

You hear a little bit.

Okay, well, I apologize for that.

I just, I just, I like, it's like, aren't the suburbs supposed to be quiet?

I'm in the suburbs.

No, that's fine.

I'm so entrenched in this conversation.

It's just

good.

I appreciate that.

So, okay, so anyway, so here I am, and I'm looking at my situation and

I break it down

into these three categories, which I think are useful to anybody as they try to assess where they are in anything.

So, okay, what do I have?

What do I need?

What's available?

What do I have?

What I have is a job at a very tiny newspaper.

And my colleagues are all people who are at the very beginning of their career as well.

And we have a fairly inexperienced editor who's not really helpful.

So I'm not learning and growing.

What do I need?

Well, I need the opposite of that.

I need to learn and grow.

I need to have access to really talented and experienced editors and writers who I can learn from and who can

also help me develop more of a body of work so that I can go convince people that I can work at a higher level.

Okay, great.

Now, here's the most important one.

What's available?

The thing is that we don't want to fantasize about what's available, right?

Like what's available is not, well, I'll go bang on some doors and somebody, right?

Like, no, you won't.

And nobody's going to answer.

So what what literally is available?

Like, what could you do right now?

Not in some fantasy land.

Like, what could you do right now?

And the answer for me in my line of work was freelance.

In media, you may not know this, but in media,

the people who write for publications are generally.

They're either on staff or they're freelancers.

And freelancers are, they're basically, they're independent contractors who generally work on a one-off story basis.

It's a deeply inefficient system.

But I could come up with an idea and I could pitch that idea to an editor.

And if the editor likes it, then they will assign it to me and I'll get a contract for that one story.

And then I'll write that one story.

And that's a way in which I could gain access to publications that simply wouldn't hire me.

But maybe if I could convince them that my one idea is good, then they'll take it.

So that's what I did.

I started, I freelanced

while I was working that job.

And eventually I quit that job actually.

And I sat in my bedroom in Holden, Massachusetts,

in a dumpy apartment next to a graveyard.

It cost me 500 bucks a month to live there.

And

I cold-pitched.

I cold-pitched.

And after nine months, I got a story in the Washington Post and the Boston Globe and Associated Press and some other places.

And this was what helped me grow my career.

And I attribute it all to just being extremely realistic about what I have, what I need, and what's available.

And you had a nice guy at the New York Times who was like kind of doing some email exchanges with you.

And by the way, is he still at the New York Times?

Did you ever find him?

No, he has.

He has long since retired.

Yeah.

Alan Siegel.

I had emailed him for some reason or another.

And

just to try to get on his radar, he was like a legendary editor at the New York Times.

And I'm this kid working at a tiny newspaper.

And I made reference to that, you know, one day

I'd like to work at the New York Times.

And he wrote me back.

I think it was a joke, but it was basically like, oh, well, I'll be long gone by then.

Right.

And

it was, I don't think he was being mean spirited, but it definitely

hit me hard that I was like, oh man, this guy sees me as so far away from being able to work at the New York Times that

going to guys like him and just trying to impress them is not going to get me anywhere.

Right.

Right.

Because I, cause, because I, I just look like a kid with no experience.

So I can't just like go and be like, Alan Siegel.

You know, like, instead, what I have to do is I have to literally get experience.

And I, the only way to do that, I mean, look, there were two, there was another way to do it.

You know what the other way to do it was?

What I could have done is I could have, I could have stayed at that small newspaper job for like another year.

And then I could have taken a slightly larger newspaper job and been there for two years.

And then I could have taken a, and I could have like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, worked my way like all the way up.

And I,

that's fine if that's your path.

You know, like lots of people do that.

It wasn't for me.

I, I was too impatient and I was too ambitious.

And, I knew I needed to skip steps.

And so I had to start thinking, well, how do I skip those steps?

How did you, did you ever end up writing for the New York Times, like even a freelance piece or anything?

I've written, yes,

I've written for the New York Times twice.

Once was

during that time when I was young and I was freelancing, I ended up writing this like weird piece about strong men competitions for the New York Times sports section.

And then

a couple of years ago,

I had a weird alternate life for a little bit as

the world's foremost selfie expert.

Because

I had started in like 2013, I had started these.

I don't know if you remember single topic tumblers.

Do you remember single topic tumblers?

No, what is it?

What is it?

So Tumblr, which I mean, Tumblr still exists, but it doesn't have the cultural weight that it does.

Oh, Tumblr, like it's a social media app or something.

Yeah, T-UM-B-L-R.

Yeah, yeah.

What is it, though?

I don't know what it is.

Oh, it's a micro-blogging platform.

So, you know, so basically like it's basically a blog, but it has a different format.

And anyway, so, um, but around 2013,

these things started to blow up called single topic tumblers.

And so what people would do is they would just, they'd create a tumbler

devoted to like one extremely niche thing that they would repeat over and over again.

So, for example, there was one of the really popular ones at the time was called Women Crying While Eating Salad.

And it was just, it was just a collection of all the stock photography somebody could find of women crying while eating salad.

Cause there's a lot of it.

Really?

Yeah, there's a ton of it.

Really?

Why?

I don't know the answer to that.

Because I guess for some reason it's a useful image.

But that's why it was funny, right?

Yeah.

You know, like there's another one.

There was another one also on the theme of crying, which was called Reasons My Son is Crying.

And it was just, it was, it would just be, it would just be like a photo.

It was this guy who just kept kept taking photos of his son every time he would like be screaming.

You know, the kid is like two years old.

Right.

And it would, you know, it would just be, it would just be like, because he got the wrong kind of pasta or whatever, you know?

And

so anyway, so I created, this is so far off topic, but

I, I created this, uh, I created this Tumblr called

selfies at serious places.

And it was, it was a collection.

I just kind of scoured Twitter and Instagram.

And I found, I found selfies that

teenagers had posted in just sort of like deeply inappropriate places for selfies, like in front of the Anne Frank House and the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin and the 9-11 Memorial.

And so I just collected them and I and it was selfies of serious places.tumbler.com.

And

that's freaking

hilarious, Jason.

This is the best part of the interview.

So it keeps going.

So

I made these.

So I made it and it like, I just, so I made it and I and it was the weirdest thing I made it and I hit publish on it and

And then I like walked away from my desk I was working a fast company at the time and I walked away from my desk and I like came back an hour later and this writer from Business Insider had found it and written a story on it and it was just exploding and and you know, there was just like international outrage over these kids doing this.

And so then I started getting calls from reporters like around the world, right?

Like the BBC called me and ABC Australia and like it showed up on like Good Morning America.

And

so I, then I had to start like, I had to have something to say about this.

I hadn't really had anything to say about it.

But so I came up with, I came up with a kind of line, which was, which was basically, I was like, look,

I don't think that these kids are.

I don't think that these kids are like ill-meaning.

And I don't think that this is an indictment of a generation.

But I do think it's sort of an interesting insight into how

we've developed these habits

of capturing ourselves in a particular way.

And we haven't really thought through yet where those habits are and are not appropriate.

And it's like an interesting moment in time.

So true, though.

And yeah.

And so anyway, so then I created a second one called Selfies at Funerals.

And

that one, that one, like, that was the one that really blew up.

Like, Weird Al Yankovic put it in a song.

Like, it was, it was everywhere.

And

so, I mean, when I decided to shut it down, The Guardian literally emailed me and asked me to write about it.

And

so, anyway, then I was getting more calls and more.

And then I did a third one called Selfies with Homeless People, which I thought was actually very, like, those photos were mean spirited.

But anyway, I don't know.

It's hilarious, by the way.

I can't remember why I told you this.

I don't even care.

It's amazing.

I love it.

Oh, for the New York Times.

Oh, right.

For the New York Times.

So, so I became the selfie expert for a long time, right?

So like people would call for years.

People would call me and they would, and they, um, whenever they would be doing a story about selfies, right?

Like the New York Times, in fact, had called me at one point.

Um, They're like, we're doing a story on selfies.

And so we would like your commentary.

And people would interview me.

And so the Times at one point ran a story about an Earth selfie.

It was a satellite that had gone out into space and like turned around and taken a photo of Earth.

And

I started tweeting at the Times about how that's not a selfie.

Because that's not a selfie.

That's not a selfie, no.

That's a photo.

There's a difference between a selfie and a photo.

And so, and then, like, me and

the science reporter at the New York Times got into like a little bit of a Twitter spat over it.

And, and then the Washington Post

ombudsman

wrote about it.

And then I decided, you know, I'm going to write a piece called Is This a Selfie?

which explores whether or not things are selfies and submit it to the New York Times and just see what happens.

Yes.

So I did it and they ran it.

No way.

Are you serious?

Yeah, you could Google it now.

Is this a selfie?

Jason Pfeiffer, New York Times.

That is hilarious, Jason.

I haven't looked at it in a long time, but here, I'll pull it up right now.

So is this a selfie?

It ran in 2015.

And so

here's how it went.

It's just a Q ⁇ A.

So here it is.

I held a camera and took a photo of myself.

So that's like that.

It goes back and forth, right?

So it's like that.

I held a camera and took a photo of myself.

That is a selfie.

I took a photo of myself and two friends.

That is a selfie, also called a groupie.

I set the self-timer on a camera, stepped back five feet, and it took my photo.

That's in the selfie family,

but it isn't a pure selfie.

Consider it a self-portrait.

I took a photo of a slice of pizza and called it a pizza selfie.

Are you in the photo with the pizza?

No, it is just of the pizza, not a selfie.

And it just kind of goes on like that for a long time.

Anyway, they ran it.

You are.

I mean, you are hysterical.

I'm like, I honestly, I have to say, you are amazing.

I just, I get such a kick out of you.

I can't even.

Okay.

No, No, I mean, honestly, that story is like gold.

Gold.

I mean,

yeah.

Which is what happens when you just like do things.

But you're, yeah, it's true.

But like, okay, so let me ask you a question.

I'm like getting off track for a second, but I want to, okay.

First of all, to that whole selfie thing about our generation, why then don't you like?

I saw in the book that woman from MIT, she did a

Shirley Turkey, yeah, about the documentary.

People want to document versus, of course,

live, but you didn't, you didn't like it.

But isn't that kind of like her at all?

You don't like her.

Okay, why?

Because isn't that kind of, isn't that accurate, though?

Like, like the whole story with like Aziz,

and sorry.

Yeah, and sorry.

The truth of the matter is people like had no interest in talking to him.

They just wanted to have that picture for their own like memory, right?

Right.

So, okay, so let me let me fill in what you're talking about.

Yeah.

So Sherry Turkle is a professor at MIT who has written four billion books about how technology is destroying us.

And her argument is basically always the same,

which is like new technology has torn us apart.

We don't know how to communicate with each other anymore.

We don't have conversations.

We are only interested in digital interaction.

And don't even socialize.

Right.

And I really, really just don't like that stuff.

I really don't like it.

And the reason is because I just don't think that it's smart and true.

Has new technology kind of created different modes of communication and has it like shifted our habits?

Yeah, of course it has.

But that doesn't mean that there was only one way in which we could interact and that we've lost it, like Eve biting the apple and getting kicked out of, right?

Like there are, you know, there was this guy who I

who I had a really fascinating conversation with.

His name is Lee Rainey, and he's, uh, he's the head of the Pew Internet Research Center or something.

I'm sure I got that a little bit wrong.

But anyway, Pew is a

very established, reputable name.

And

Lee made this really interesting point to me, which was, he's like, look,

a couple, like a generation ago,

a sign of intelligence was the ability to retain and recall lots of information.

And today,

a sign of intelligence is the ability to find and process information very quickly, right?

Because we don't need to retain as much of it anymore because we have it at our fingertips.

And

so, like, is that, is there, are one, is one better?

Is one worse?

No,

it's just different.

It's just different.

It's different needs for a different time.

And that's how I feel about a lot of the shifts that happen with technology.

That's not to say that people don't develop unhealthy habits.

Of course, they do.

It's not to say that bad things can't happen online.

Of course, they can.

But like, let's not think that there's only one way of doing things and then look at every new thing through the lens of the old thing.

So so Sherry,

Sherry, like that's the thing that drives me crazy is because I think that what Sherry is seeing is people communicating with each other with each other in new ways.

And then she is creating a value judgment that these new ways of creating are worse than the old way or of communicating or worse than the old ways of communicating.

And therefore, we have lost something that we can never gain back.

And I just don't think that it works that way.

I think that we are constantly evolving.

If you go back through time, people had the same concerns about the telephone.

Oh, well, now there's a telephone.

Nobody nobody will ever come over to your house and nobody will ever see each other in person because now they can have the telephone and like no

no instead what happened is that we call people sometimes when that's convenient and we see people sometimes when that's like convenient and enjoyable we do both it's okay and so um and so anyway the Aziz sorry story just like I just I mean like when I was reading that in the New York Times I wanted to scream um so so Sherry wrote this this opinion piece in the New York Times in which she's it was it was about like the death of conversation it was called oh it was called the documented life and about how everything is now about being documented.

And so wasn't that written, by the way?

Oh, that's a good question.

Let's find out.

The documented life

before or after his scandal.

Oh, it was before it was before his scandal.

So it was before his scandal.

This was in 2013.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

When you were kind of doing your selfie stuff.

Yeah, same time.

So

she, okay, so she tells this story of her and Aziz Ansari, the comedian, who, of course, his name, you know, it doesn't mean what it used to because there was this whole Me Too thing.

But anyway, but back then, he's just a beloved comedian.

And he's getting back there, though.

He is.

He's getting back there, yeah.

And

so

he and Sherry Turkle are walking around LA and fans keep coming up to them.

And Sherry describes how people,

like, fans would come up to him, and he would, okay, I just pulled it up so that I could just read directly from her.

So

people approached him every few minutes, not to ask for an autograph, but to demand a photo, which I note in the book.

Like, just think about the judgment value, like the value judgment there and the difference between ask for a photo and demand, or ask for an autograph and demand a photo.

She asked for an autograph.

She thinks that that's a perfectly natural thing because it's old and demand a photo.

That's because it's new and dirty.

So, okay, Mr.

Ansari is gracious to his fans.

He explained that instead of a photograph, he would offer a conversation.

He inquired about their tastes in music, what they liked about his performances, his stand-up, his sitcom, parks, and recreation.

His fans were mollified, but they were rarely happy.

they had to walk away with nothing on their phones now sherry describes that as as just like a condemnation of a generation right like these people didn't want an actual human interaction all they wanted was something on their phones and and like the point i wanted to make no the point i did make in the book is like That's a that's a perfect example of actually a completely different thing, right?

Which is and that completely different thing is that like not every interaction is the same, nor should we expect it to be the same.

Because what those people were doing when they came up to Aziz is they weren't they weren't looking for a meaningful interaction with Aziz for all sorts of reasons for one they're probably very nervous in front of him and two like look at this he inquired about their taste in music what they liked about his performances could you imagine meeting a celebrity

so awkward could you imagine meeting a celebrity you love and they're like oh tell me what you like about my performance i i wouldn't know what to say to that that's so awkward and so and they also probably feel like aziz is busy he doesn't why i don't want to take up that much of his time right like they, they want to interact with Aziz to get a photo to share with their friends because they want to interact with their friends, right?

That's the thing.

That's what Sherry's missing.

Sherry thinks that the interaction is about the fan and Aziz, and it's not.

The interaction is actually about the fan with the fan's friends.

And the fan wants something to show the friends that they can have a fun time together.

And Aziz is simply a participant in that.

And so they completely got it wrong.

They were looking at this experience from an old lens.

And that I think is damaging because when we do that, we start to like condemn all sorts of things.

We say, Oh, well, because people are trying to take photos with each other, they're like, Now they don't know how to communicate.

And that is so stupid.

That's just a misunderstanding of how progress happens.

And I think that it doesn't help us

build good things for ourselves and build good habits for ourselves.

No, you're, I could just, I felt your anger when I read it in the book.

You know what I mean?

Like, it was like visceral, you know, yeah, like just how you are now.

Yeah, well,

it animates me, it drives me crazy.

I mean, okay, so what, by the way, what else are you like, since you have this ability, you said you were writing TV shows or you're doing, what else?

What are you doing?

What do you mean you're writing TV shows?

What kind of shows?

Oh, so developing TV shows.

So

television development is a ridiculous process.

Basically, you

know all about it, but tell everyone else.

Yeah, you know all about it.

Okay.

So, right.

So you like, you basically you work with the producer and you have an idea and they're like, this is really interesting.

And then you have like a million phone calls and you put together like this, you know, this deck.

And

then you have a whole bunch of calls with other people.

And, you know, like as people like to joke, like, you know, there's never a bad meeting in Hollywood.

So everyone's like, this, I'm so excited about this.

So great.

And then, you know, and then like after all that work, nothing happens, right?

So

did you know that this podcast was supposed to be a TV show?

Oh, I did not know that.

No.

That's a whole other story.

Go on.

Yeah.

You got to get it.

So anyway.

I was kidding.

So I will read all about it.

So anyway,

I'm doing that.

I find it to be really fun because it's like, as long as you go into it knowing that you're basically buying lottery tickets, right?

Like you're going to have conversations with really accomplished people who have made shows that you know and they're smart and you throw out an idea and they're like, that's really interesting.

And then they ask you a question that you hadn't thought of at all.

And

are you hired though by someone?

Are you like independently doing this?

Like what did you do?

No, I'm just doing it.

I'm doing, I'm just doing, I'm doing it independently.

Like I'm doing it independently with a bunch of different producers because I just have a bunch of different connections.

And so

you're kind of like writing an idea with some producer or whoever, and then you're gonna pitch it basically.

So, right.

So, like, a here's a like a give us an example that you can talk about, yeah.

An example.

So, I can't tell you like specific story things because I don't know at what point any of this is supposed to be public.

I don't know, so I'll just give you like broad strokes.

So, um, that's such a Hollywood term, too.

I know, it's terrible.

Uh, yeah, see, I know, can't somebody pay me already?

I'm using the language.

So, um, so anyway, so like a friend of mine who um who has a he had a he had a like a hit on HBO Max and now he's got like a first look deal with the with a you know like a network and he's got a producing partner that it has made a whole bunch of like very big shows you've heard of.

He reached out to me and he was like, hey, do you have any ideas for television shows?

And I was like, boy, do I.

And so then I just sent him a bunch of ideas and

they really liked one.

And so then we, you know, then we have like a whole bunch of calls and emails where we're refining it.

And now we're like working through the deck.

And then eventually we'll kind of take it out and try to sell it.

Right.

So it's like, it's that.

I'm doing, it's like a lot of that.

And, um, you know, I have a talent agent and, and, um, and I'm working with a whole bunch of different people.

I'm serious.

Like, I'm dabbling.

I'm at APA.

So Mike Goldberg and Hayden Meyer.

Shout out.

And, uh, uh, and, um, yeah, you know, it's fun.

It's like, it's such a side to the side to the side hustle.

But, um, but the way I see it is like, all that's required right now is me throwing out ideas, which to me is just like the easiest thing in the world, um, and then having, you know, like kicking them around in conversation, which is fun.

Why not?

Let's do it.

100%.

Now, who do you, who's your favorite person you've ever interviewed?

Oh, boy.

I don't know the answer to that.

Just the first person that comes to your head.

Don't even think about it.

Just like the, just whoever, the first person that comes to your head.

Okay.

The first person that comes to my head

is Josh Holloway from Lost.

And the reason for that was because, so I've interviewed, like while at Entrepreneur, I've interviewed so many inspirational people and they've told me so many inspirational things.

And I can repeat them all.

all and I can tell you that Ryan Reynolds told me that in order to be good at something you have to be willing to be bad and Malcolm Gladwell said that self-conceptions are powerfully limiting and like I love all that stuff but if you're just going to ask me yes it would if you're just asking me like well who was just like my favorite well the the like the answer is when I was at men's health and I was I was like I was 28 and this is my first national magazine job and uh and I was an enormous lost fan remember lost like the show of course I know Josh Holloway yes yeah and um and um and then we we were going to put Josh Holloway, who played Sawyer on Lost.

We were going to put him on the cover.

And

the team there knew that I was like the lost obsessive on staff.

And so they said, do you want to fly to Hawaii where Lost is filmed and sit down with Josh Holloway?

They're filming the final season right now

and like profile him for the magazine.

And I don't even know if I had written a celebrity profile at that point.

And I was like, yes, of course I want to do that.

And so I got on a plane and I flew flew to Hawaii and Josh and I sat down and had some beers on the beach.

And like, we had, we had, I still have this.

We had,

so the Kona is the local beer, right?

Is the Hawaiian beer.

And underneath the cap, like when you, when you pop open a Kona bottle, underneath the cap is

a word in English.

It's sort of like

a fortune cookie where they have the word in English and then they have the Chinese.

So they have that, but for, I'm embarrassed that I don't know what the, the, the, whatever the

native Hawaiian language, which I'm embarrassed that I shouldn't know the answer or what the word to that is.

But

anyway, so

after Josh left,

we had a great conversation.

He was so nice.

I really liked him.

And then he took off and we were cleaning up, me and the team.

And

I picked up the bottle cap from our drinks and I looked at it and the word that was being translated was lost.

And I was like, oh,

really?

So I have that bottle cap still.

Like I kept that bottle cap.

That's such a good story.

Yeah.

That is a really good story.

So would you say, who would be the one person you have not interviewed that you want to?

I don't have a good answer to that.

People ask me that.

And the reason is because

I've interviewed enough people who I just didn't know anything about because I'm not actually that pop culture focused.

I loved lost, but I don't really know that much about pop culture.

That I interview people, like I just interviewed Norman Reedas,

he's like the star of The Walking Dead

for the magazine.

I don't know, I don't, I, I don't watch The Walking Dead, so I wasn't familiar with him at all.

I loved him.

He was so nice and thoughtful.

And we had a great conversation that went on and on and on.

At the end, he was like, this is like a therapy session.

And like, I loved him, but I would have never,

he would have ever put his name down on a list to interview because I don't watch The Walking Dead.

Right.

So

like, to me, I don't know.

you know there are lots of interesting people out there the most interesting people are probably the ones i've never heard of yeah i agree by the way it's always the people that i least expect that uh like i never you know that i have the best conversations with and it's the people that like have the high profile that everyone's like oh my god how was it to you know how amazing it was to you know sit there and talk to them and i'm like that's okay you know like

i i kind of like going in uh with like feeling like there are no stakes because i don't have an emotional investment in this person you know like right i've I've interviewed people who I, whose, like, work I really, really loved, uh, or who I was just a fan of, right?

Like, I grew up a Miami Heat fan because I lived in South, I grew up in South Florida.

So, Chris Bosch, right?

So, Chris Bosch, but Dwayne Wade was first.

Like, I interviewed Dwayne Wade, like, he was the first guy I interviewed at men's health.

And so, I was like really nervous to do that.

Um, and he was really, he was great.

Uh, but, um, but so, you know, there are those people, but you know, a lot of these people

are, you know, or like maybe I know their names, but I'm not that invested.

Like, Jimmy Fallon, I interviewed Jimmy Fallon.

I

spent time in his office.

I loved Jimmy.

He was so great.

I don't stay up and watch late night TV.

You know, like I don't watch the tonight show, but I loved him.

He was so, so wonderful.

So, yeah, you just never know.

Are you

okay?

That's fair.

Who do you, who picks the covers?

Are you are you the one who picks the covers?

I'm me and...

me and others, you know, I mean, it's sort of like a team effort.

And then ultimately, I mean, Bill, who you, who you know is the president of Entrepreneur,

he and Ryan, the CEO, have kind of final sign-off on who goes on the cover.

But, you know, I generally, I'm generally the one having conversations and scouting ideas.

And then I'll take it to Bill and I'll be like, I think that we should do this.

And, you know, he'll say, that sounds great.

Or he'll say, I don't know.

And so, yeah, but it's all for me.

And then I do a lot of the interviews.

Not all of them, but I do a lot of them.

I was going to say, do you do most?

Who else does them?

besides you?

I feel like you do most of them.

I do a lot of them.

Do you pick who you want to do or they just say, you're doing this one?

Yeah.

No, I mean, you know, editor-in-chief prerogative.

I can kind of claim what I want.

But

so, I mean, generally we keep it in-house.

So Francis,

our deputy editor, does,

you know, does some.

Liz, who's a contributing editor,

does some.

And then occasionally we'll bring in a freelancer if all three of us are like too busy or something.

But yeah, we try to keep it in-house.

By the way, so I don't know what your time is.

Like, this has gone over an hour, but I mean, I've got like a bazillion other questions for you.

So I appreciate that.

I'm just going to say that the book is called Build for Tomorrow.

And as I'm sure you can tell, Jason is just,

he's like a wealth of information.

You got great perspective.

And you're also great.

So what's your social media?

Just tell people that and then we can wrap it up.

Sure.

So, yeah, first of all, thanks.

This was so fun.

Second, I promised that I was going to tell the teddy bear story and then we never did that.

So it's in the book.

I guess it's in the book because we didn't get to it.

So

blame.

You did.

blame your host, not your guest.

And then number three is

you can find the book wherever you find books.

If you can't think of a place where books are sold,

which, you know, maybe you're having a memory lapse, then jasonpfeiffer.com slash book is a good place.

Otherwise,

yeah, you can find me on social at Hey Pfeiffer on Instagram.

I'm also or TikTok, which I'm trying to get more into.

And I'm also just very active on LinkedIn.

Very active on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Super active.

Yeah.

It's a great community.

It is actually.

You're just awesome.

Thank you.

We're going to schedule another one.

We're doing part two for sure.

Okay, great.

That's all.

And maybe

I'll tell the teddy bear story then.

That's how we'll kick it off.

I love it.

Okay, don't hang up, but we're saying goodbye.

So bye.

Thank you.

Habits and hustle.

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