Episode 418: Dr. Jason Fung: Why Calories Are Not the Key to Weight Loss

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T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com and use code BEBOLD for 15% off any of their products. We've always heard, and me coming from the background of health and fitness, that really it's about the calories you bring in versus calories out.
And you're saying if you want to lose weight, that's actually not correct information. It doesn't work as simplistic as that.
Can you just kind of talk about that a little bit more? Yeah, absolutely. So the whole idea with calories in, calories out is that it makes a few false assumptions.
First of all, people look at it and they say, you know, calories represents one part of the food to treat. That is the energy that's contained within that food.
But when you're trying to gain or lose weight, there's actually much more to it than simply the energy that's contained in that food. So it's not just the energy, it's what your body does with that energy, right? So if you take 100 calories of cookies, for example, or brownies versus 100 calories of, you know, salad or broccoli or, you know, salmon or whatever, the body can choose what to do with that energy, right? So you can either store it as fat or you can burn it and use it for energy.
You can generate body heat, for example. So simply, you know, taking in that energy doesn't mean that you're going to store more fat because if your body simply uses it, then you're not going to store fat.
However, on the other side, if you take in 100 calories of cookies and your body immediately shuttles it into body fat, which is simply the storage form of calories, well, you don't have any energy. So then your body is going to have 100 calories less energy because you've put it into storage, right? And so therefore, you're going to be hungry, or you're going to generate less body heat, none of which sort of, you know, you know, breaks the laws of thermodynamics, because people always say, oh, it's thermodynamics.
And they ask anybody who says that clearly doesn't understand thermodynamics in any way. Because remember that it's the energy balance equation is body fat equals calories in minus calories out.
And that's always true. But there's three variables there.
There's body fat, which is storage. There's what goes in and what comes out, right? So if you take less in, for example, you're reducing your calories in, you don't necessarily reduce body fat.
What could also happen is that if calorie, what comes in goes down, what goes out, that's energy expenditure can also go down and your body fat can stay the same. So that is one of the choices the body can make, But it depends on the hormones within your body,

right? So if you're eating less, but you're burning less, then your body fat is not going to go anywhere, right? And it doesn't break the laws of thermodynamics. So simply eating less doesn't automatically translate into lower body fat.
It depends on what your body does with it. And that's all about the hormones in your body, right? So we know, for example, that insulin is a hormone that promotes storage of those calories.
So if you simply take foods that, you know, have a very high insulin stimulating effect, your body is going to want to store that because that's what you've told it to do. So therefore, what happens is that you don't have energy to burn because you've stored it away.
So just like if you have, if you go to the grocery store, for example, and you take that food and you immediately put it all into your freezer, well, you have nothing to eat, right? So you're either going to have to eat less or whatever, right? Same thing. If you take those calories, store everything away, you have no energy.
So then your body is going to burn less because it has no energy to use. So that's one of the most important things.
When you eat, the food contains not just the calories, but also contains information as to what to do with those calories, right it's not this in and out i have two questions is that why when people are in their in their when they heat like middle age or over over 40 they tend to have more uh body fat not it's because you know a lot of times your hormones are changing and you, it's all about the hormones and they're, and they're gaining a lot of weight in their midsection. And what they try to do to offset it is eat less, but they're still not losing that body fat.
Right. Yeah.
Because it's really depends on, and it happens to everybody. So everybody notices this, right? So if you look at teenage boys, they are eating a lot.
And they're not generally overweight. I mean, if you look at sort of middle age and older men, they're more overweight than sort of 20 year olds.
Right. Those 20 year olds, if you've ever had a teenage boy, they eat a lot of food.
Yes. And everybody knows that.
So therefore, they must be also burning a lot. And that's probably just the stage of life they're at, the hormones and their energy and what they do, their lifestyle, that kind of thing.
So it plays a role. But the point of the whole thing about calories is that you have to really look beyond the calories.
And you really have to look at what the information contained within that food is as to what your body's going to do with it. So if you are taking certain foods that have more fattening, then it's because of the hormonal response to those foods.
That is, as soon as you put the cookies in your mouth versus when you put broccoli in your mouth, the hormonal response of our bodies is completely different. We know that.
That's just science, right? So we have to pretend that those hormones don't play any role in body fat, but it does. Everything depends on the hormones.
That's how our body works. So this whole idea of calories is completely unphysiologic.
That is, there is no system within our body that simply monitors the calories in, calories out. We actually have no way of measuring how many calories in.
The only way our body knows, should I store body fat? Should I burn it and generate body heat? Should I, you know, have too much sugar and become diabetic? The only way our body knows what to do with it is the hormones. And that's really what you have to focus on.
And it doesn't break any laws of thermodynamics. It doesn't go against, it doesn't mean you can eat everything you want.
The only thing it means is that certain foods are more fattening than other foods. And, you know, that's sort of common sense because your grandmother would have told you like, nobody gets fat eating broccoli.
It's just doesn't happen. But the people, all those sort of scientists who are sort of real, it's all about the calories sort of thing, will try and convince you that, you know, well, 100 calories of cookies is just as fattening as 100 calories of broccoli.
But it's not true in any way. Cookies are very fattening.
Everybody knows that. But yet somehow they tried to convince everybody and did, they were quite successful to a certain degree, that they did convince everybody.
So there are doctors out there saying,

oh, you can eat ice cream for dinner and not get fat

as long as you count your calories.

It's like, well, you know,

some calories are more fat than other calories.

If you eat a block of wood, it has 100 calories,

but it doesn't matter.

Your body doesn't absorb it.

It just goes right through you.

Your body can't process it.

So it's not the energy.

So it's energy plus what you're supposed to do with that energy. And that's really what's important.
So there's a couple, you said a bunch of thoughts that I'm very much want to ask you about. So the first part of this is, is it because your body, it's what your body does with that particular calorie, right? Because you can have a bunch of cookies, 100 calories of cookies versus 100 calories of broccoli, your body metabolizes it different.
So there's a couple things. So I heard you say that, so the trick, by the way, is to, not the trick, the thing is to keep your insulin leveled, right? Not to spike your insulin.
So are you saying that like cookies, processed food, of course, sugar, all of those things are obviously spiking your insulin. But I think I heard you say on someone's podcast, or even in your book, maybe that protein can even spike your insulin, which is something that I've never heard anybody say before.
Is that like, how is that possible? Yeah, protein can spike your insulin for sure. But it has other effects.
It also because insulin goes up, but then other hormones go up like glupigon, it doesn't tend to have any effect on blood glucose, as opposed to carbohydrates, where it does have a big effect. But then there's other effects.
I mean, it's the sort of totality. If you look at protein, for example, there's other effects.
If you eat protein, you're going to stimulate peptide YY, which is a satiety hormone, and it's going to make you not want to eat. That's why they have those, you know, contests where you, you know, you eat 120 ounce steak, we'll give it to you for free.
They're not giving away a lot of free steaks because those satiety hormones are just so strong that you can't force yourself to eat that much, uh, meat because of the protein. So there, you know, yes, insulin is going to go up, but if on the other hand, your body is going to naturally stop eating it.
Like, you know, if you've ever gone to a buffet and just been super, super full and somebody said, here, have another pork chop, you go, you know, I'm going to throw up, right? That's just the way it is. So therefore, it's going to naturally sort of regulate itself.
And then while protein's not particularly fattening, a lot of people eat high protein diets and do very, very well. Carbohydrates, of course, is a little bit, especially processed carbohydrates, natural carbohydrates, probably less so, but processed carbohydrates to a big extent is the big problem.
And I don't think that's terribly controversial. I mean, it's simply, you know, sugar and refined, refined grains and stuff.
A lot of stuff that,

you know, we probably accept that it's not good. You know, the whole point is that it's, it's,

it's the, the foods that you eat are important in many different ways other than just the calories.

So you do have to look at these, these, these, these other things because they're really just really,

really important.