This Reframe Will Change How You See Love, Boundaries, and Self-Worth | EP 92

The parts of me that don't feel sacred or enough are based in a lie.

It's not the degrees or the resume or who I'm affiliated with.

It's just in and of myself, I'm sacred.

We're conditioned to equate love with self-sacrifice.

How do you work with and empower people to start setting those boundaries?

Let people love you.

If everyone in our lives only depends on us and we're not receiving, there is something we're doing that is co-creating that pattern.

It's not just a matter of can you make it without being nourished, but do you choose to be nourished or not?

When someone really cares about you, there's room in your connection for disagreement.

If you have to agree with everything they think and say, that's not really a friendship.

They just want a clone or a puppet, but they don't actually want to connect with you.

Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast, where today we're diving into the power of healing, specifically around how to stop overgiving in relationships, what the impact is of being the parentified parentified child in adulthood, and how to heal from patterns of self-abandonment.

We'll also explore the importance of boundaries, breaking free from survival patterns, and reconnecting with our true self.

Joining us is Dr.

Tama Bryant, a psychologist, author, and advocate, offering transformative wisdom on personal growth and self-empowerment for creating lasting change.

I'm so happy to have you here.

Oh, I'm glad to be here.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm just blown away by how profound the work is that you do, not only in therapy, but in art and activism, poetry.

I'm curious about your upbringing and if there was a moment in childhood that really shaped who you are and the work that you're doing today.

Yes.

So both of my parents were in ministry and very much into what we would call liberation theology.

So with liberation theology, it's not enough to just have services Sunday morning.

We're open seven days a week doing things for the community.

So having like an AA degree program, an elementary school, a place where you could get free clothes and shoes, job training, like holistic care.

And so growing up, seeing that really touched me to I was a minister to the whole person and to connect with community in ways that will be empowering.

And it's not when I was growing up, but when I was early in my career, I was invited to speak somewhere at a medical school.

and the person who was introducing me talked about me as a poet and a psychologist.

And so I was interweaving the poetry with my talk.

And so when it was over, this guy comes up to me and he goes, a doctor comes up to me and says, well, like, which one are you?

Because I'm just very confused by you.

So when I left, I got in the parking lot and I called my mom.

And she has like this very distinct voice.

And she goes, Tama,

single gifted people will rarely understand multi-gifted people.

To them, you will always look scattered.

Just be everything you are.

And that I have held on to that.

And being all the things, right?

I'm like, I don't have to choose.

I can be all of myself.

That's beautiful.

It sounds like you had really inspiring parents and leaders in the community.

Yes, very much so.

And like I say, none of me is an accident.

It's like formed and influenced by them.

So my mother dedicated years of her life to what was called women's ministry and would do like these women's retreats.

And so one of my first leadership positions actually was becoming president of the Society for the Psychology of Women and looking at, you know, what are ways that we can be whole and well and not just be in survival mode, but thriving.

So, I really have a heart for girls and women's mental health.

The more I learn about you, the more I'm inspired and blown away.

And now, your family lineage.

And I, yeah, and I know that in service providers, a lot of us get into this work with a really good heart.

And on the other side, there's some shadow work around overgiving.

And I'm thinking about my audience and people who may overextend in relationship trying to fix or save or heal their partner.

What are some ways we can look at ourselves and do some of our inner work so that we don't burn out, we don't betray ourselves or get resentful?

Yeah.

What are some things that we can do to be aware of?

This is so important because those of us who go into this work are, for the most part, very compassionate, giving people and are used to being the strong one, right?

The contained one.

And let me like people please or heal or help or be a little mini messiah and go around being a guru, rescuing people.

And that is not only exhausting, it's unsustainable.

Yeah.

And it denies our own humanity.

So, one of the things I teach in the graduate program at Pepperdine University.

And while kind of professional advancement advice is important, one of the topics I think we often neglect is relationships for people who are in our position and the importance of being with people where there's mutuality and reciprocity.

I like to say, like, let people love you, right?

Let people show up for you because

if everyone in our lives only depends on us and we're not receiving, there is something we're doing that is co-creating that pattern.

Yes.

And often it's when we're struggling, we hide, we isolate, and then we just show up when we're shiny and strong.

And so people just think, oh, you have no issues, no problem, don't need any help.

And it causes us to miss ourselves.

So self-neglect is a big thing for helpers and healers.

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people misunderstand empathy is being with someone when they're hurting, whereas sympathy is feeling for them.

It's like projecting what we imagine we would feel if we were in their shoes.

Suffering with MNS therapists, you and I know if we were to do that, we would burn out.

It's not sustainable, like you said.

And yet being with someone while they're feeling, when we're present and connected with them, when they're feeling something, not only helps them move through it, but then it's actually more effective.

And I think people don't, they may know that, but they don't really feel that.

I think a lot of us didn't have models and examples.

And I think somehow we unconsciously think it's loving to suffer with someone.

And I think along those lines, the more you do the work, the more you can trust the process.

So when we're first starting off, we don't trust the process and we may handle the therapy time the way we would do a friendship.

So with a friendship, like we don't get off the phone until you feel better, right?

We're going to be on the phone all night, we're going to stay up all night, like until there's some shifting, we're just there.

And so, when we first start off doing therapy or coaching, if you don't trust the process, you don't know how to end the moment and say, We dropped a seed here, and that's okay.

And the suffering people are experiencing usually didn't happen in one moment, right?

It's been years in the making, so it's gonna be more than a single moment for like the shifting.

But when I trust it, when I trust what we're doing here, when I trust the work, then I can end the moment and know like this, this isn't the end.

So it's okay.

It's okay that it's not neatly packaged.

Yeah.

And you said something earlier, which I didn't remember the exact words, but it was essentially like honoring the dignity of their own process that they have all the inner resources to navigate their inner experience and having a compassionate space held for them while they find that.

And again, I even know this mentally, but are there some deeper processes to have?

Because I did a ceremony with my dad this summer.

My dad does shamanic work, and I was learning from the trees about receiving.

I was like, the trees in the environment were teaching me that as I learn to receive the way that they do, then I'm part of the whole, that it's not self-sacrifice.

And so I'm wondering if there are any practices, somatic tools, or processes that really help people go from knowing it to living it.

Yeah, the compassion holds are really helpful.

The compassion holds allows us to tune into what's happening in the body, to feel our feelings, and I like to say to take sacred pause, right?

Because when my anxiety and rescuing is driving, then I have to like fill the moment.

I have to fill the silence.

And some of the silence is where the work is going to happen, right?

Like they can't even sit with it because I'm so busy trying to pull them out of it.

And so, when we're sharing, or either when someone has said something difficult, or even if they give like that, the typical answer of I don't know, or I don't know, or I don't care, instead of like, now I got to ask you 10 more questions, let's pause there with the not knowing, right?

Let's pause with the not caring.

So, one compassion hold is a hand on your belly and a hand on your heart.

And we inhale in through the nose

and exhale out through the mouth.

And then one hand on the heart, one hand on the forehead.

Inhaling in through the nose.

Exhaling out through the mouth.

And then embracing yourself.

And some people have gone a while without a hug, so I can give that to myself, show up for myself, inhaling in through through the nose.

Exhaling out through the mouth.

And then because we want to honor that we're the expert on ourselves, that big word interoceptivity, which is just bodily awareness, I'll say, you know what most aligned with you.

So I invite you to go back to the position that most was nourishing to you in this moment.

Whichever one it is, there's no right answer.

So you just reflect in which of the three, this one or this one or this one?

The hug, yep.

And I'm going to go to this one.

And we just give ourselves an extra one of the one that met us where we are in this moment.

And the gift of that

is to honor that you're the expert on yourself.

Like, I don't know what feels right to you in the moment, but you know.

What I love about that is that it's helping then the client pay attention and also feel like the expert in their own healing journey.

Yeah.

And agency, right?

I work a lot with trauma survivors where choice was taken from you.

So any opportunity to let people choose,

that body sovereignty, right?

You get to say what your body does or doesn't do.

That is healing in and of itself to see that.

And a lot of people learn to be what everybody else wanted them to be.

So practices like this, not the somatic practice, but also the way you are being as a therapist in session with them is also helping remind them and rewire and offer a healing experience.

Yeah.

And that's in part why it's so important for us to be like grounded and clear.

People who have been in stressful, toxic, abusive situations become very good at reading people.

Hypervigilant.

Right.

You got to like be on it and see where is this other person sometimes even before I figure out where I am.

And so

because people are being vigilant, it's especially important to know it's not just like a script, right?

Of like, it's not just a matter of like, do I say the right thing, right?

Because more than what you say, people are feeling you.

Right.

So it's more, be authentic and the rest will flow from that.

And like you said, a lot of this is not just the moment.

And so don't to put pressure and to think that you need to help resolve it.

But I'm even thinking, like, questioning that something is wrong in that moment.

I loved your pause around: let's be with the not knowing or the not caring because the not knowing or not caring can come from defense, right?

And if we're not trying to know and we don't know, whether it's a defense or we genuinely don't know, there's more peace around it, right?

And there's more trust in their innate wisdom and absolutely.

And then it also takes it out of being like this tension.

If I'm trying to pull something out of you, I'm the expert, I'm going to heal you.

Right, right.

Like, tell me, tell me, don't know.

Yeah.

And more dependency.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I love that.

Leaving it to us to tell them their truth.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Connecting them back to their own agency, like you're saying.

And a lot of us learn this in childhood.

I mean, yes, it can be trauma responses as well.

And some of that trauma response can be from being the parentified child.

For those that don't know what that is, it's where you're caretaking for your parents physically, emotionally, or both.

so caring for the siblings managing the house being there for the parents when they had a hard time yes and I think what that does is it teaches children to as adults to abandon their own needs for a functioning family or to fight feel safe and loved yeah and so some of this stuff then can show up in adulthood where we're continuing to abandon our needs and attract somebody who supports that or us overworking and burning out.

Like there's lots of different manifestations of it.

What have you found helpful with people to just keep coming back to what their truth is around and really checking in with themselves rather than that hypervigilance and

maybe if they were parentified children?

Because it runs deep.

Yeah.

I think a part of it is releasing

the aspect of us that has made that our identity.

Yeah.

And it's the point of our pride, right?

That as a kid, you were told you were an old soul.

That sounds wonderful, right?

It's like, oh, I've always been wise since I was 10 years old.

Well, no, you were in a circumstance where you couldn't really be a kid, right?

So now instead of having to hold on to, like, I'm the old wise soul, it's like, I want to get my play.

I want to recall that, reclaim that, or claim it for the first time.

And so,

not needing to have all the answers, being able to get in the practice of saying, I'm not sure, or I don't don't know, instead of making things up, right?

And also that sacred pause before to check in with myself.

I especially say that for people pleasers, when people ask us to do something, especially me being raised by two ministers, like the thought was like, anyone who needs you or wants your help, like you have to say yes.

And so learning like, you're not a bad person to say no.

right and you don't need a big long explanation for your no it's just okay for you right

Thinking about putting other people's needs first as well.

And then wanting to parent in a different way in some ways.

You know, growing up, a part of my, I would say, both cultural and religious community was kind of children needed to be obedient.

And that included around physical touch.

So if adults wanted to hug you, like you had to be hugged, even if you weren't comfortable, even if you didn't like it.

And you'll see these examples of adults who are laughing about children squirming, right?

Like, come on, you're going to give me a kiss.

And they're holding them.

And the more upset the kid is, the more hilarious the adults think it is, which is like severely problematic.

And it teaches the message of...

It doesn't matter what you want.

What do other people want from you?

And you better give it to them, right?

Which is a terrible setup.

And so, you know, some people when I share that will push back and say, well, I don't want rude children.

There's a difference between being rude and being able to say you don't want physical contact, right?

So you can say like, oh, my children have to speak.

If an adult says hello, you say hello.

Okay, we could do that, right?

So learning as we want to break cycles, how do I model for people and teach people around their own consent, not only to touch, but just their own energy, their time, their space, what they need, what they want, and giving people space and affirmation to do that.

Yeah.

It's so important because if a child learns to abandon their no, they're going to consistently do that and then they can be manipulated

and they continue to conform and lose connection with what their truth is.

Yes, absolutely.

And once you're disconnected from that, that's one violation often leaves you vulnerable or at risk to future because you just learn to freeze and kind of wait for the moment to be over or try to make sure everybody else is approving of you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm just, and if there's a parent that's like, oh, I'm doing that, just offering ourselves compassion and then learning a different way.

We're just advancing the future.

Absolutely.

Because we repeat what we know and we can be well-intentioned.

And often our parents and grandparents were well-intentioned.

And to know, as you're naming, to acknowledge another way or to acknowledge the consequences of the old way is not to say like that, people were monsters.

We're human beings and did some things great.

and I want to model it just like that.

And some things, no, thank you.

I want to do it another way.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes people are like, well, I did know better.

There's like mental knowing, there's integrated in your heart and your gut.

And so, just again, just like offering people compassion.

If we had really known differently, we would have.

And we are further advancing our past generations doing our best.

And a beautiful gift with our learning and knowing is even when we can go back to people, whether it's our children or friends or partner, to it can be years later and still make that acknowledgement.

That can be healing for people.

Cause so many times people never get an apology or never get an acknowledgement of like, I can see how that was hurtful to you now, right?

That can be very freeing.

And we can do that without the guilt.

Right.

Yeah.

Just to be like, oh, I'm learning differently now.

And I'm sorry for the way that I showed up in the past.

Yeah.

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Anytime we abandon ourselves to make a relationship work, it was never going to work.

And you talk about how sometimes we're conditioned to equate love with self-sacrifice and the power and the sacredness of honoring our truth and our no.

And it can be really hard for people to set boundaries and have the sacredness in their no.

How do you work with and empower people to start setting those boundaries?

Yes.

So I find role plays are very helpful.

Yes, they are.

Right?

To give you an opportunity to feel it in your body, to think about what you want to say.

And an important part is preparing people for the range of possible responses.

Sometimes you'll set a boundary with someone, and great responses when people are like, Oh, thank you, I didn't know that, like that.

You felt that way.

You know, now I know.

And they shifted, like, wasn't that beautiful?

I do.

Right, right.

But then, other times where people are going to get angry, or people will act like they're okay with it, but then continuing doing the old way, some people act confused, right?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Like, I've never done that before.

And so, preparing, especially when we have anxiety about upsetting people and to know that when someone really cares about you, there's room in your connection for disagreement, right?

If you have to agree with everything they think and say, that's not really a friendship, right?

It's, they just want like a clone or a puppet, but they don't actually want to connect with you.

Yeah, there's so much in what you just said.

And I'm just seeing how that influences, yes, every relationship, but also team dynamics.

Like any relationship, you want to have healthy conflict.

You want to be able to support and respect somebody's other opinion.

Yeah.

And to find your okay-ness with them being disappointed, that we can have the tools to navigate their disappointment.

And it's okay if it's hard for us.

It is.

And I love that you're applying it to teams.

I think about this when we have diverse people or underrepresented people in a space, but like don't want anything to change.

So basically, that's like tokenism.

So we want like like their face on like the brochure or the website or to be able to say I had one.

But like if they come with a different perspective, then that's the discomfort.

Yeah.

And can I recognize like growing pains, stretching pains, as opposed to the idea of like if anyone's uncomfortable, something's wrong?

Yeah, that's right.

And I think redefining that healthy relationships include disagreement and healthy confrontation.

I think if people really just got that, that they can find their okayness even when others aren't, that we can work with the parts of us that feel scared or it triggers abandonment or I'm not going to be loved and safe,

that would change every relationship where people are playing this out and teams.

And that is the ground of like really starting to shift it.

That's normal and healthy to have conflict.

And it's how we navigate it because it's going to make us better as a result of hearing diverse opinions and ways of thinking about collect like creatively problem solving.

but you also mentioned role play and some scripts do you have any that you can help ground us because I know people want to be more honest with their nose and speak their truth and I would encourage people to start with the relationships they feel safest with kind of like building that muscle right

yeah before those bigger ones and you know when we're creating maybe you know our list of people we want to become more honest with to start with the ones that feel safer yeah because let's say if the hardest one is some powerful person, right?

If you start there and then kind of shut down or it's not effective, then you're going to give up and say, like, oh, it doesn't work.

Let me go back to silencing myself, censoring myself.

So I start with the people who I am most likely to think will be receptive to hearing a different perspective.

They don't have to agree with me, but there's room with them.

They have like a spaciousness about them of like, oh, okay, that's interesting, right?

Because it does build our confidence.

And to start in a simpler way, I give as like an activation exercise is this week, let's say three to five times when someone says, how are you doing, give an honest answer?

Right?

Yeah.

Instead of finding you, that's the script.

Right.

How are you?

I'm fine.

How are you?

I'm fine.

It means nothing.

The fine means something.

And we can feel more than one thing at the same time.

So maybe like, I'm I'm tired, but I'm excited about something or

feeling disappointed because I was waiting for something to happen.

It didn't happen.

Now, I'm not saying for your three to five people to be random people in the supermarket.

Actually, do you have a minute?

Right.

It's like, hold on.

I'm not doing well.

But that's a way of having more genuine intimacy and for you and the other person to be in practice of there being room for you in the relationship, right?

Because sometimes we'll we'll talk about people who call us who take up all the airtime.

And then, if we shift to ourselves, like then they end the call, right?

They all gotta go.

Okay, so what would be something powerful?

Because I know there's a lot of service providers, helpers listening that are like, yes, yes, right.

That's them.

So when someone calls and they have said, kind of gone on for a minute to say, let me jump in for a minute.

Is this a way to acknowledge, like, I'm interrupting this flow?

Let me jump in for a minute because i'm really appreciative that you're reaching out to tell me about what's happening and i want to share with you my thoughts about what you just shared but i also want to let you know there have been some things happening for me as well so i'm hoping we'll have enough time for both of us to get to talk beautiful it's like a microscopic truth you're sharing your experience you're making yourself important in that relationship and not just being bulldozer right waiting to like the very end where they're like oh is anything going on with you and you're like no no no i'm good yeah you're like it's already been an hour i gotta go

yeah yeah to say like you know i want to hold space and then i should also say for us not waiting for other people to initiate contact right because then you're like oh they only call when they need something and it's like and when do you call and was your role right yes yes yeah so yeah initiating exchanges and there there's also the boundaries and the no when i'm clear that something isn't going to be mutual then if they're calling i check in with myself to say, do I have energy to pour?

Because all I'm going to be doing is pouring.

This is not a friendship.

So then I can say, like, I have it or I don't have it.

Like, I'm willing to do it in this moment or, no, that's not how I want to spend my Saturday afternoon.

So

I'm not answering.

Yeah.

That's self-honoring.

Yeah.

So what I'm hearing you say, just to ground it for myself, is to first become aware of what your needs and desires are, what's your truth, and then feel safe in that relationship to start speaking it.

Right.

And maybe that's

seeing what it instead of being a victim in the experience, what's my role?

Yes.

And how can I interject letting them know I would also like to share some.

Yeah.

And a part of what we sometimes have to shift is this,

if we ask ourselves, can I do this?

Then the reality is many of us are quote unquote long-suffering.

Right?

We can pert, like, I'll be fine.

Like, they need me, but I'm going to be fine.

So then I would say it's not just a matter of, can you make it without being nourished, but do you choose to be nourished or not, right?

Which is different than like, am I strong enough?

Because yeah, I could have like 10 one-sided relationships and go through my life like that.

And maybe many of us have, but I make a different choice for myself now.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think the first step is seeing it.

The second step and seeing it compassionately.

Because we can see it and judge ourselves.

Like, oh, I'm doing the thing again, which further traps us.

Or we can see it compassionately and be like, wow, I learned that from childhood.

It worked then.

It was a safety strategy.

And now I'm learning differently now.

And so if somebody asks us to do something, we can pause before answering, give ourselves space, or take the vulnerable invitation to share more authentically in that moment in those safe relationships.

But also, I think helping remind people that relationships that are already established are harder to shift.

So like being graceful and patient with ourselves versus newly established boundaries in relationships is far easier.

That's an important piece because

some long-term friendships or relationships can shift, but people aren't going to guess that, like, you know, you had this internal awakening, but they don't know that, right?

And so, sometimes as a culture, we're very quick to just like cut people off.

It's like New Year's resolution, cut them, it's my birthday, cut them.

Well, I just, it's a new season, cut them, I had a dream.

So we're quick to cut sometimes.

This is important, right?

I love that you're sharing this.

And so the reality is, especially when it's been a pattern, this is how we operate.

People may not, one, guess that you now have a problem with it and two, have a sense of what you would like.

And so for us to actually communicate that before eliminating, because sometimes we'll say, well, they should know.

Well, how would they know?

It's been like that.

Like this has been the pattern.

Yeah.

So to speak up and give people an opportunity to shift and also to commit to ourselves in my new relationships i want to show up differently from the beginning so then that tone is set.

I love that you bring this up because I think a lot of people just start cutting people out and they really think it's about the person and they miss the pattern.

They miss where they participated in it.

And again, through compassion, okay, I learned this in childhood.

I'm learning differently.

But what I hear you saying is setting up people to win,

like loving them to be like this is how you love me this is I'm setting you up to win with me and if they can't I get it right you can cut that off yeah and to know sometimes we attach a judgment to something that isn't necessarily bad or unhealthy sometimes it's just different you know like we were raised differently our personalities are different and so people may be doing it and expecting from you what they would do in that circumstance and you're just different people that's right can you give an example of this because i think it'll help ground it for people yes So this is like a dating example from my early years.

So my growing up, both my parents would go and speak and do, like I said, these retreats, like very deeply loved each other, but also very much like did their thing.

And when I was in graduate school, I was dating this guy who his father was a dentist.

His mother worked as the receptionist for the dad's office.

So they were together all day.

And then on the weekend, he would go, the father would go play golf.

Mother would bring the father lunch to the golf course.

And if she went to get her nails done, unless they was gone more than an hour and a half, they, he and the dad and the brother would be calling to see where mom is.

Right.

So, you know, then he meets me.

And it's one of those things where it's like having like a full life thing would be like I would be going to these poetry coffee houses and performing my poetry and all that.

So it's not that having your thing is bad.

And it's not that if your spouse is like your only and your best friend, it's not that it's bad.

It's like it wasn't aligned, right?

So then, like, let's just be released and find people we're aligned with, knowing that neither way is like necessarily wrong or bad.

Yes.

I think it's so important that you bring that up and that you can also choose differently because it was similar with my husband, where there was more codependence in his family from Mexico.

There was just like the women were very much much the second example of your boyfriend.

And I was much more independent.

And he had to reprogram this can be love too.

It doesn't mean that she's not interested.

And so that repatterning and that choosing, that agency can also happen.

Yes, love that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's true.

Yeah.

That shifting of being able to see and like take our narrative off it.

Like we all have stories.

That's right.

So like, what's the story I'm telling myself about her life or her choices or what does that mean as it relates to me?

And as you said, like being open to a retelling of the story.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking about so much of this can play out in relationships, but also in business and in work and in teams.

And you talk about performative love and how it's really tied to our self-worth.

And earlier you mentioned how people are busy, sometimes as I think as a safety strategy to hustle for proving their worth.

And I think a lot of the times we are afraid, and this was pre-pandemic, because I think the pandemic really helped people slow down to feel what they were afraid to be confronted with if they weren't hustling for their worthiness, essentially.

I know that those same patterns we're talking about, how they show up with work, if we abandon ourselves,

we can burn out.

We don't set those, you know, for me speaking, I've definitely done that with my team.

I definitely as a child was self-appointed, the glue in my family, trying to make sure everyone was okay.

And then I started doing that on my team and overperforming and making sure that, yeah, there's a lot of hypervigilance that was going on.

And so, in your experience, what have you found supportive to help people really de-program and decondition performative love?

Right.

One of the things is recognizing and enjoying the wins, right?

Because when we're in that driven space, like it's never enough.

Yeah.

Like, we're on to the next.

I'm going to do this.

I'm going to do this.

And like, none of it is actually enjoyed.

Right.

And so like to cultivate joy and creating joy together and that starting to heal our sense of unworthiness requires that even like just sitting still, I'm enough.

Right?

I have to do like 10 million things in order to like prove it.

Because when that comes from the trauma wound, it never is enough.

That's right.

Right.

You can do all those things.

And then sometimes not only are we missing the love that's present, but also we can carry the weight or the baggage of other people's decision making.

We can do that with our partners.

We can do that with our children.

This idea of like everything is my fault, right?

Because

I'm responsible for everything.

And so then we don't celebrate our wins and we hold on to other people's failures or mistakes.

Giving ourselves permission to embrace the joy.

And then also, we have in behavioral psychology this idea of acting as if.

So instead of waiting till my heart shifts, let me just treat myself as if I loved myself.

You know, what would a woman who loved herself do in this moment?

Let me try that and see how that feels.

Yeah, you're making it up the fantasy anyways.

Why not win?

Right, right.

This keeps coming back.

You play.

I'm really, this word keeps standing out.

Yes.

I went to a personal development program and I think the hardest day for me was a week-long retreat.

The hardest day was around play.

And I think that there's so much healing and importance in play.

And I'm wondering if you could speak to some of this because you've had some seeds in our conversation.

I'm hearing you.

Yeah.

So play is in a lot of ways ease.

Right.

And it's healing the nervous system.

We talked about that vigilance, right?

When I'm guarded and on and performing, sometimes I can do that out of like a survival strategy, right, or a safety strategy.

But learning to breathe, allowing myself to laugh, allowing myself to play, it is reprogramming myself, which communicates to my essence, I'm okay.

Right.

And so again, it can be that

when did you lose the ability to play?

Right?

And some of us never had it.

We were born into very stressful situations.

And even though I use the word reclaiming, you can still claim it for the first time.

And so you never, like in your home, it just was not safe to play or play wasn't encouraged.

You like either had to be vigilant for toxic people that were around or it was like just filled with chores.

Like, you know, we just have to always be on and on and on.

And so to give myself ease is healing, healing to my body, my mind, my heart, my spirit.

And then play

is, it requires a trusting of letting go.

Right?

So it's like, who do I play with?

Right.

It's like some people they talk about like when people feel safe, you'll see more like the child version of them show up.

Yeah.

And like, isn't that glorious?

Right.

That's what it's about that I, so like what people and in what places do I feel safe enough to let go?

I love this.

Yeah, and it's almost like we're rewiring the nervous system to know that play is safe, that it's okay to let go.

And as you're talking, I'm just thinking of the play that I like.

Yeah, I don't like board games, I love dance.

Oh, me too.

And so, like, you know, like we can also just have our own ways of playing, and it doesn't have to mean like I love all types of play.

Yeah, yeah, so I'm just hearing this.

This is permission and healing for me as you're speaking.

Some ways of play, you'll you'll already know.

Like, we both are like, oh, we love dancing.

And then some plays may be things you've never tried before.

So, like, being open to explore.

It's like, let me see.

Maybe it will be and maybe it won't.

But I, again, honor my truth.

Yeah.

Like, was it stressful for me or was it enjoyable?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And not to make it wrong, it's like, all, yeah, just find your form of play.

And I think that this coping mechanism is hard to heal because we're so validated through the success that sometimes can come from the wound.

And And so, just for people who learn to earn love through success,

and that approval, that outsource validation.

I'm just thinking they're hearing a podcast like this.

They're like, yeah, that's me.

And one of the things that has really helped me unwind this is in the spiritual dimension, waking up to who I am beyond any patterns of looking for love, attention, and approval in the world.

Knowing that that may be a part of me, it's not the whole of me.

And really come home to myself.

And I know you speak about this.

So let's take it to more of the spiritual level, really coming home to ourselves to embody our inherent worth.

So it is recognizing as a sacred being, I'm already enough.

It's not the degrees that make me enough, or the resume that makes me enough, or who I'm affiliated with, or who my network is.

It's not even popularity.

It's like just in and of myself, I'm sacred.

And each person has that.

Then what I start to do to heal is a friend of mine, Asia, who's a poet, has this line in the poem where she says, who lied to you?

Right.

And I love that because it's like the parts of me that don't feel sacred or enough are based in a lie.

That's right.

So I identified a lie and say, I am actively working to reject the lie of my unworthiness.

Oh, I love that.

I am actively working to reject the lie of of my unworthiness.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The truth is, I am worthy on the days I believe it and the days I don't.

And no matter who agrees, I already am.

I'm still worthy.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Two practices that have helped me know that more deeply are inquiry, questioning my thinking, and just meditation, just being.

Yes.

I think of the Enneagram as who we are not.

It's our personality, not who we are.

And I type as a three, an achiever, helper.

So I like to achieve things and help people do same.

And I really got to sit with who am I when I'm not achieving?

And I know that you talked about identity.

And so, really deeply inquiring into who was I taught that I am and what's the truth of that?

Yeah.

Who am I when I'm not thinking myself into existence?

Yeah.

So a part of it, I would encourage people to try morning rituals, right?

To not start your day running and taking care of everybody, even your household, right?

So, that requires like waking up before I have to get up so that I have a way to start my day sacredly.

And as we said with like the play, what's sacred to you and what's sacred to someone else may be different.

But if I can wake up early enough to walk in nature, or sit in nature, or to meditate, or to listen to a podcast, or listen to, I like for people to pick like a theme song, was the song that like just resonates and feels like you for this season because the song will change.

But to make a commitment of I'm going to wake up before I have to get going and I'm going to nourish my soul so then what are the things that feed your soul and that's that's the way I start my day so then I'm not running on empty and then I'm not building resentment right instead I'm showing up from my overflow I love that I've been coming back to my morning practice which I like the variety within it yeah so sometimes I'll do breath work a lot of the times meditate.

I'm wondering if I should incorporate some dance after talking with you

or that play.

It's so wonderful.

Because then it's you're embodied, like you're in yourself, you're aware, and the way it shows up, the movements will be different.

Some mornings like just slow and, you know, and some more.

Ready to go.

Yeah, even this morning, I've been trying to get out with like natural sunlight.

I took our questions out in the sunlight.

I was like, okay,

I can merge.

I did a meditation and then was like, so more nature, more connection with ourselves, paying attention, and then honoring that, even if it's just that sacred pause.

Yeah.

And I will say

being intentional about spending my time with people who make me feel sacred.

Right?

Because sometimes it's hard to heal it if we're around people who don't treat us sacredly.

Then that reinforces, like, I got to prove it or contort myself or convince or chase.

You're making me think it's kind of like an addiction.

So then it's like, okay, can I get out of the bar for a little while?

What are the patterns and people or dynamics that cultivate that lie?

Yes.

And do I need to pause from those to rebuild a deeper truth and knowing?

Yes, 100%.

Because sometimes it's not just like the one person who lied when I was 10, but the person I'm calling a best friend or partner is promoting the lie of my unworthiness.

So I got to press pause on that, take space from that.

And really do projection work.

Because usually it's not the current relationship.

It usually goes back to those origin family-parent dynamics and the misunderstandings and to do self-forgiveness and really reclaim what's true.

Yeah, what's true.

And to know that sometimes the lie, the earlier lie, affected my choices.

So then I chose people who would agree with the lie.

Let's talk about that.

It's, you know, it's familiar.

Yes.

We grew up having to convince or to fight for attention.

And then as we're older, what can be the most attractive are the people not wanting us, right?

Yeah, because it's familiar.

Oh, yeah.

But also, instead of just feeling like insecure, you can have an overconfidence of, I know I can win them over.

Like, I've done this many times.

I'm going to figure them out and do what I need to do and show up in this way instead of questioning or not believing the people who already see your worthiness, right?

And so we'll call that boring.

That's a good one.

Yeah, it's

I'm not attracted because of my trauma wound

connected.

I don't have to do anything.

Yeah, what's wrong with them that they just like me?

I think this is so important because if we haven't done the healing work and we just look to remove ourselves, kind of like we were talking earlier when people just say, I'm cutting you out, then those people that are healthy are going to feel boring.

And so when we do the work to heal at the root, it naturally shifts in our life.

And if we don't, we can then keep people and patterns and dynamics that are validating an insecurity or a lie.

Yeah.

And so that's why it's also good to take healing time of like I call it pulling the wisdom out of my wounds, right?

So these were hurtful experiences, and I don't want to keep repeating them.

So what do I need to shift?

What do I see, not just in them, but in me?

Yeah.

Can you share it with us a story to ground that, whether yours or a client you've worked with?

Yes.

An example would be people

who have consistently dated persons who were emotionally unavailable.

And I'm going to say in particular, a client who consistently is with married men.

That feels safe.

It also feels chosen because like, even though they're still with their wife, that somehow like, I'm the special one, right?

I'm the adored one.

They're there out of obligation, but they choose me, right?

So this like false sense that you're being promoted or elevated, but also feeling the not enoughness that people come in briefly and then leave.

It doesn't require like that deep emotional connection, which for some people can be scary.

Right.

And so then it becomes, I'll say for the client I'm speaking of, what need to happen for a relationship where you are first to feel safe.

Right.

And so then often it's healing those earlier wounds.

And then I will say, on the flip side, because I've worked with a number of clients, I've worked with men, who it could be men or women, but in this example, men who have consistently been unfaithful with their spouses.

And we'll say it's like the adrenaline rush and the esteem boosting, right?

Because your partner like sees all of you, right?

Sees the parts you didn't win in, the parts that aren't so shiny.

But if I just like go and pick up people at the club and I look fancy, then they affirm that and adore that.

So it's like I miss the unadulterated adoration, right?

Like, I'm amazing.

So then eventually, what happens is like that wears off because anyone who gets to know you more is going to see you more.

And when they see you more, then like that's going to take off the magic.

So now you got to go find another one.

Unsustainable.

Yes, yes.

Because at the root, again, like how you're feeling about yourself.

That's right.

And it's almost like it's creating experiences that reinforce the lie that you are not worthy.

And that without going to the root, you're just going to keep recreating those.

And also, that pain and suffering can be motivators to heal, to actually look within.

And so for people, because we talked about self-betrayal, now we're talking about betrayal and relationship.

What would you say to somebody that has been betrayed and they want to to heal without carrying that heavy burden?

Yeah,

it would be to start with: what are the lies that the unfaithfulness told you about yourself?

Right?

And we, as a culture, like reinforce those lies of like, oh, you must have not kept yourself up.

You weren't cute enough.

Right.

That's right.

These messages are so

ridiculous of like, yeah, you didn't know enough tricks.

You didn't know.

Yeah.

Like

all the things.

Or, you know, one will be the lie that I should have kept my opinions to myself, right?

Because the notion of like, you're not supposed to, like, having opinions is nagging, right?

So you, because you nag, they went to a soft place to land, someone who's always pleasant.

As if it's their fault, yeah.

Yeah.

So it is, you know, as we were talking about, like the story we tell ourselves, it's the illusion of control.

If I believe I can pinpoint, quote unquote, what I did wrong, as long as now, like, I always have my hair done or always have my makeup on, like, it will never happen to me again.

I think that's why so many people were like outraged when the story came out about Beyoncé.

They're like, if Beyonce, like, what hope do we have?

So, this, so it's like disrupting the lie.

And so, when I do that, to know there are multiple reasons for some people, some people I've worked with just have never been faithful their whole lives and don't know it's possible and don't know if they even want to.

So I had nothing to do, like they could have married anyone or been with anybody and this was going to be the behavior.

So to give ourselves room to know there are parts of my life that I co-create and there are some things that come into my life that are not invited by me.

Yeah, so letting go of some of, yes, looking at in some situations, did I participate in this dynamic?

And if I didn't participate in creating it, then did I participate in maintaining it?

And if so, then can I choose differently?

I forget sometimes that people really think it's about appearance and surface level things and that we know that the root of it is within.

And so a lot of people that are looking for the outside in, it's just, it's only a matter of time till we realize it's deeper.

Right.

And it's unfortunate because people promote those messages, not just like the unfaithful partner who's looking for a narrative, but like in our society, like those messages get put on repeat.

I know.

And then I should also say another one that, of course, comes up is around ageism, and particularly for women, right?

Is this idea that the older you are, the less attractive you are.

So then your value diminishes somehow.

Yeah.

I want to bring my mom back on the podcast.

She's more in love at 75.

Long silver hair, like traveling the world.

I'm like, we get to have more stories of everybody, but particularly women, just like life keeps getting better.

Right.

It's so beautiful.

Right.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, like disrupting the light.

And I love how people have been talking about: let's not just highlight people who are like single and dissatisfied, but people who are single and happy, right?

Yeah.

And they're people who are married and happy and people who are married and miserable.

Let's like leave room for because the reality is like our status is not like

the point, right?

So like that inside job and what's happening in the dynamic is really going to be the fruit.

Yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

We need more examples and stories like this.

And one thing I really appreciate about your work, and I watched your TEDx talk where you're such a leading voice in decolonizing psychology, so important.

I was sharing with you how in undergrad, I knew it wasn't just from the mind.

We have to understand the context because I've made up my own major with psychology, religious studies, sociology.

It wasn't quite it.

I feel like you've got it, but I only had a few options in undergrad.

Talk to us about what decolonizing psychology is, why it's so important for people that haven't watched your TEDx.

Yes, so a criticism of psychology is an overemphasis on the individual cognitions and ignoring of context and history.

We are shaped by multiple things.

There's social psychology, there's political psychology, there's gender studies.

So, all of the different aspects of us shape us.

And so, it is inaccurate to think that the reason someone is struggling is just they have unhealthy cognitions, right?

So, if you just shift the way you think, everything is going to shift.

And yes, thoughts can be powerful, and the way we think is important.

And it is victim blaming to convince people that the only reason you have difficulties is because you're not thinking positive thoughts.

It's just, you know, an example would be,

you know, women struggling with body image.

It's not just like women randomly woke up and decided to like hate their bodies, right?

Like we are bombarded with all of these messages about like what is beautiful and what is not.

What does the leading lady look like?

Who is the rejected one?

Even on these apps, right?

Who is attended to and who is ignored.

Then to say to that girl or woman, you just should think better about, you just need to love those thighs.

You just need to, right?

And it's like, yes, like ultimately I have to get to a place of loving myself, but I also give myself one grace and compassion for the lies I've been told that made it hard for me to see my own beauty.

I also recognize that a lot of the people around me who didn't choose me have been indoctrinated by those same systems.

So then are not able to see me me and appreciate me and then you know go about the journey of healing my view of myself yeah yeah i love that you bring in this piece and the context because

I love mindset work.

I love even somatic work, you know, and it's more than both of those things.

Yes.

It's the culture, the environment that we were raised in.

It's all of it.

It's a holistic way to heal.

Yes, it is.

And what's amazing is when you start to acknowledge those things, some some people will say well that sounds political and I don't want to be political it's like our whole lives are political the DSM is political the mental health process you know so it's like that some political perspectives you don't want to see or acknowledge which is also a political stance right is to say like pull yourself up from your bootstraps right yes that I believe that if people just think positively about themselves things will work out it's like come on.

Yeah, we need to go a little deeper.

And I think that you're inviting that, and I love that.

And I love this quote that you said in your TEDx talk, one of yours,

when did you stop singing?

Like, that's really stayed with me because you talk about play also.

And I'm thinking animals play, children play.

When did I stop playing?

When did I stop singing?

Right.

And that that can be also an indicator of when trauma came into my life to look at.

With solutions-focused therapy, there are things we know that we do when we're our best, when we're thriving.

And sometimes the stress and trauma of life takes us, disconnects us, takes us on a detour.

So we're no longer doing the things that actually nourish us.

And so, as you're naming, to notice when that stopped and to reclaim those practices of, yeah, I used to like meditate in the mornings, or I used to go to brunch with my girlfriends before I got like so busy I didn't have time for that, right?

So, to reinstitute the things that nourish us and the key part, don't wait until I break down to do them.

Right.

When it's like I exhaust myself and we'll say like, oh, I'm so drained now I get to like go have a massage, which massage is wonderful, but it also can't be an aftermath to a neglected life.

Right.

So what's my consistent practice going to be of honoring myself?

And I love part of it with the holistic, you can talk about decolonizing or decolonial psychology.

We also can think on the flip side, indigenizing psychology.

And so, what are those indigenous practices, like singing or arts or spirituality, moving our bodies, dancing, the ways that we know to heal?

I mean, almost every culture around the world from the beginning of time has had music and arts and community.

It's so wonderful, right?

It's healing.

It's in healing.

So our cultures are healing.

Community, art, spirituality, our storytelling is healing.

And so to do the things we have access to so that we can be whole.

And for somebody that's listening to this who's going through a hard time that has trauma, what would you say to them?

What do you feel like is really important?

Because we said a lot already, but is there anything else that feels important to say to people so that they can really let it land?

Right.

So I would say, along the standpoint of storytelling or narrative therapy, to look at the story I'm telling myself, and it may be the story the offender or perpetrator told me as well, so that I'm not blaming or shaming myself, but I'm also not remaining in a place of powerlessness.

So in the moments of violation, we were powerless to stop whatever someone did or group of people did.

But I get to say, in this present moment, I do have agency and I do have voice.

So what do I choose to say about myself?

And what do I choose to do to reclaim my sovereignty, to reclaim my power?

And I like to say, people may have written on the pages of my life, but now I have the pen.

Right.

Yes.

So it's like, now I can still write a beautiful story with this life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that message.

It's so empowering just to remind people, especially that have seemingly had that power taken away to give it back that agency.

That's been such a theme for today.

And I have kind of a wild question.

Not wild, but maybe off the cusp, just in closing.

I know you're so involved with psychology and the field and the movement of where we're heading.

So thank you for all of your contribution.

And I'm curious your thoughts around AI and just what.

either you hope or you're concerned about.

I personally would love to find a way to not have a job, you know, to make healing scalable and accessible through an iPhone or through EMDR and mapping.

I think it's somehow possible if we really focus on it.

And I know there are also concerns people have.

I'm just curious where you're at around this conversation.

Yeah, so I will give like a positive comment and then like a negative.

Sure.

So a positive, I had a client who was dealing with major depression.

And one of the times she was like in a very difficult place one of the things that was like very helpful for her to have like this breakthrough was she told ai some facts about herself and asked ai to write her life story

oh my goodness they wrote this incredible story it was using her names things that were important to her and saying like that she created this nonprofit and she's like traveling and all these things that like felt to her like possible.

So it pushed her out of like that hopelessness or despair to see like, how could my story turn out?

So I think like, that's beautiful.

And it worked.

It was helpful.

A challenge is unregulated, and we've seen that it's faulty and not culturally attuned.

It's, you know, manualistic, right?

And so that can be very dangerous.

Yeah.

If you have a machine who's listened just to some information and now, like, guiding people, it's not a sound process.

so I would say where I see it going, or what could be helpful, AI interventions that augment the therapeutic process, like where it's like something very specific, like creating your story.

You know, I've seen the one where they have little kids say what they want to be when they grow up, and then they see the image of themselves, like in the outfit of whatever that fireman or whatever.

The kids are like excited and kind of hold on to like that, like that could be my future.

So, I think it could be used in beautiful ways, but I think to release the therapeutic process to a machine could be quite important.

At this phase for sure, yeah.

And it sounds like also how it's used and how it's programmed is really important.

And maybe we'll have some regulation around it.

I just want to say thank you for who you be and how you show up in the world.

It is such a pleasure to know you.

And I know my audience is going to want to stay connected.

Talk to us about what you're up to.

How do they stay connected?

Absolutely.

So, my latest book is Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love.

It's available on Heartback, Digital, and Audiobook.

Before that, I recommend Homecoming, which is for healing from trauma.

And Homecoming has a workbook called Reclaim Yourself.

My podcast is called the Homecoming Podcast with Dr.

Tama.

And my website is drtama.com.

And I invite those who are in social media to follow me under Dr.

Tama.

Yeah, and if you were inspired by any of this conversation, feel free to share it on social, tag us.

I'll put all the links to your work here below the show notes.

Thank you for being here.

What a gift you are in the world.

Thank you for having me and for holding this space.

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But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.