You Need to Fight for Friendship with Julia Louis Dreyfus

This stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free.

Yeah, there's a real release where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going.

It's totally about me.

This episode is brought to you by Pine Salt and Chase Chase Home Lending.

Hey, you.

Hi, Craig Robinson.

How's it going?

It's going well, Mish.

How are you doing?

I'm doing pretty good.

I'm digging that aqua.

This is one of my favorite pieces.

Yeah, yeah.

It looks like, you know, you'd wear that pulling up in some hot shot ride or something.

Yeah, well, I've been tooling around in

my Rivian R1S here in LA.

And, well, it's actually not mine.

Rivian has been kind enough to gift us with

vehicles.

But when I'm here,

I've driven a loner

that I'm just falling in love with it every single time I get in it.

But listen,

we've had a great conversation about friendship.

Oh, yeah, today.

Today we're going to talk about friends.

But today we're going to talk about friendships.

as we age.

Ah, okay.

And I was finding it hard when I was sort of researching this topic and thinking about it.

Being a guy in a relate committed relationship, I never thought that when you're in a committed relationship, there's the potential of still being lonely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because, of course, I still have little kids at home.

So I'm running around chasing them.

But, you know,

it's a phenomenon.

Yeah, and I think it's particularly true with women.

Maybe it's the nature of men and women and how they, they

sort of maneuver in the world.

But I have a number of female friends in relationships who,

but for their outside friendships, would perhaps feel lonely within their relationships.

And I don't want to generalize, but

their men's habits are different.

Sometimes they don't want to chit-chat.

They don't want to catch up.

So I have a lot of friends who, you know, they love their partners, but they, you know, find their friendships and relationships outside of that unit.

But I don't know if you experience that among your friends.

You know,

I think what I perceive and what's actually happening now is making me think there is a gap there because I'm.

I'm like most, I'm like a guy.

I'm the kind of guy who is assuming everything is going fine until somebody says, oh, you know what?

My wife and I are getting divorced or, you know, my wife's telling me she's lonely and I don't know what to do i haven't had that happen

but um i can people people can be lonely inside of very healthy relationships you know if you don't share the the same hobbies in common if you have different temperaments even different life patterns um

and

throughout my life especially now that i'm getting old older I work very hard to maintain my relationships with my friends, whether we live in the same city or not.

Maybe living in the White House and being in a position that was pretty isolating, right?

You know, not too many people can walk up to my door and knock on it.

Right.

They just dropping by for a cup of tea, right?

So as a result, you know, people couldn't have our phone numbers.

They couldn't for security reasons.

So

It there was a wall between me and my friends that was real.

And as a result, I got into the habit of making sure that I was continuously reaching out, finding ways to bring people in, planning events, planning trips with my friends, because absent me doing that work.

It was just really hard for a friend to call me over those eight years and say, hey, girl, want to go to the movies or you want to go on a trip with me?

But I found that that habit has served me well now that I'm in my 60s and I can even foresee how beneficial that is as I get even older.

Because my friends and I, we just have a routine of how we connect no matter where we are in the world.

We have habits, routines, rituals, you know, that we do amongst ourselves and even with our daughters as they get older, as with our kids as they get older, that has helped us sustain our relationships.

But a lot of people haven't invested that kind of time.

Yeah.

And I've all, I mean, you're so good at keeping your friendships close and inviting people in.

Well,

we're going to talk a lot

about a relatable

relationship, friendship questions today.

And we've got a fantastic guest.

We do.

We have both been excited about this.

So

I think anybody

with a a brain would be excited.

How excited about that?

And, and I'm talking about Julia Louis Dreyfus, and she's an Emmy Award-winning actress and comedian, known for her roles in Veep and Seinfeld, of course.

But Julia is currently hosting a popular podcast

called Wiser Than Me.

And I'm excited to hear about that too.

But I have so many, a varied number of questions that we might get off topic, but

we'll have to rein it back in.

Maybe you're a really fangirl in here.

I'm really excited about that.

So without any further ado,

Julia, Julia, come join us.

Oh, there she is.

Hey.

So happy you can be here.

I'm so happy to be here.

I am so delighted to be here.

And

I'm sure you don't remember this, Michelle, but I went to a soul cycle class with you.

Oh, my gosh yeah i went through my deep soul cycle you did you were kind of an addict i was yeah i was yeah yeah yeah we went right around the white house that's right so how did you find your soul cycle and had you been doing soul cycle no i had never done it before i do other things to work out but i hadn't done soul cycle yeah

didn't care for it

but i was happy to try it it's an acquired taste it is in fact yeah it is yeah i think she's the only one in our family who liked doing it.

Yeah, I went through,

I'm like that with activities.

You know, it's like potato chips.

I can't just eat one.

Once I, you know, link into something, I'm like all in.

You'd like to hike?

I do, but I don't hike as much as I did.

Just like I don't do soul cycle as much.

I've had to vary as I've gotten older.

Yeah.

My workouts because

they mess up the body in certain ways.

So soul cycle.

You really have to differentiate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You got to diversify.

So tell us about wiser than me.

Are you having fun?

Yeah, it's really amazing.

You know, the genesis of it was that I saw this

movie, this documentary with Jane Fonda about her life.

Oh, yeah.

You guys thought I saw that one.

Yeah.

And I was so struck by the breadth of her life, profundity.

done so many different things.

And it got me thinking about, wow, there's so many women out there that are older.

I mean, at at the time she was 85, I believe, that are older, that have had these extraordinary lives, and we're not hearing from them.

That's right.

So I wanted, so I was like, I need to, oh, I've got to find a podcast that talks to those women.

Of course, there wasn't one.

So then I just started to do it.

And it's really taken off.

So it's nice.

And it's an opportunity for talking about friendships.

It's an opportunity.

I've made some real friends doing this, including Jane, by the way.

So

we're doing a lot of sort of political and environmental activism together now as a result of this, which is great.

Yeah, I think the concept is beautiful and it's necessary.

We talk about this a lot, how women, as we age, we get pushed out of the picture.

Yeah, it's incredible

when we're,

you know, as you know, now that I'm 60,

this is really the first time in my life where I feel completely me and I can

absolutely embrace my wisdom.

Yes.

I mean, because I think we as women, we spend most of our lives saying, well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

We qualify everything.

We apologize.

We apologize.

We don't want to put our opinions on the table because maybe we're wrong.

We're always hedging, you know, because in the back of our minds, we weren't raised with the certainty of maleness that, you know, kind of the confidence that young men in their 30s have, which they haven't earned.

They just have it.

You know, we don't start feeling that and owning that until our 50s and 60s at a time when we start to

be treated as invisible in society.

And the notion that you are capturing that wisdom in a systematic way is powerful.

Yeah, I think it's critical for both, for the culture generally.

It's not just for women, it's for men.

Frankly, we're just missing an opportunity.

I mean, these women are,

I think of them as being on the front lines of life and they can report back to us what they've seen and what, and what we should or should not be doing.

Yeah.

And as people, not as just as female people, but as people.

So I am

thrilled to do it.

It's a lot of work because I want to come to the table really well versed in what they've done and who they are.

And we're talking to scientists and novelists and, you know, everybody.

And I'm learning a lot as I go.

Yeah.

And this may be an unfair question.

What's one of the most fascinating things you've learned in this process from one of these women?

Or

a couple of things that you would say have stuck with you?

No is a complete answer is something that stayed with me.

I'm sure you've heard that before, but it sure is a meaningful sentence.

And

particularly as women, we are sort of, our culture indoctrinates us to

put a caveat onto a no.

I know I should, but I can't, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Women, we have so many landmines and barriers and don'ts and limitations.

It's, you know, I mean, Craig, you're the guy at the table, but I think it's important for all guys listening, especially men raising daughters,

to realize

that difference, you know, and that thing that inadvertently, as you are loving and raising these beautiful girls, there are so many rules

that make us small.

Baked in without our knowing it.

Yeah.

You know?

And I wish I could.

I mean, I, well, I, you know, I remember people saying, oh, well, she's the female doctor,

as opposed to to just she's a doctor.

You know, though, this is good.

We have to remember this for the next time you're here to talk about that topic.

But

we're here to talk about

friendship and loneliness as

older adults.

As we get older in life.

As we get older in life.

And we have a really good question today talking about

sort of being an adult and having this very vibrant friend life that all of a sudden is not there anymore.

And I found this topic really interesting.

And I think now's a good time to have Natalie, our producer, read the question.

And then we can

dive in.

Yeah.

Natalie.

This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, committed to supporting you all the way home with smart digital home buying tools and resources.

Chase Home Lending is dedicated to helping individuals and families achieve their dream of home ownership.

They offer expert guidance throughout the home buying journey, helping customers navigate the process with confidence.

This brings me back to a time when we grew up living upstairs from my aunt in a two-family home that she owned and we rented.

And it was a wonderful time.

But being a renter, we had to be extremely careful of what we did.

For example, we had to be quiet at a certain time.

We couldn't play on the front lawn.

My sister couldn't have a dog.

And we didn't realize the importance of being a homeowner until we got late in life.

We always would talk to our dad about why we don't own a home.

And he talked about being house poor.

Little did we know that homeownership was a great way to build equity.

My sister and I ended up buying our own homes later in life and we use that to help pay for our kids' college.

And that is a way where home ownership can lead to future success.

Chase Home Lending offers personalized support, expert knowledge, and access to valuable resources, helping home buyers navigate the complexities of getting a mortgage.

Their guidance ensures buyers find a financial fit and make informed decisions.

Visit chase.com slash start to see how Chase can support your home ownership journey.

Member FDIC, Equal Housing Opportunity.

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test.

As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45.

Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer.

We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of 10 people.

But the key here is that it has to be caught early.

With the Cologuard test, you can take control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription-based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy.

Not only is the Cologuard test effective for colon cancer screening, but it can even detect pre-cancer.

And in addition to its convenience, the Cologuard test is also affordable.

Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door.

Don't let your health take a back seat.

So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your health care provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test.

You can also request a Cologuard prescription today at cologuard.com slash podcast.

The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer.

Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer.

The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients.

Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older.

False positives and false negatives can occur.

Cologuard is available by prescription only.

We're so thrilled that Pinesol is a partner of IMO.

Pinesol has been connected to our family forever.

To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of Pinesol, we automatically feel better about life.

The smell of Pinesol has always taken us back to our childhood home.

It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time.

Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in DC.

That's why I'm excited for Pinesol's newest scent, Cherry Blossom.

The cleaning power you know and love from Pinesol is available in a new scent this spring, Cherry Blossom, which is light and fresh and leaves a lasting floral scent while eliminating tough dirt, grease, and grime.

You can use Pinesol Cherry Blossom Multi-Surface Cleaner to help deodorize and clean hard, non-porous surfaces, including floors, sinks, counters, stoves, bathtubs, shower stalls, tile, and more.

Visit pinesol.com to find where to shop Pinesol Multi-Surface Cleaner in the new Fresh Cherry Blossom scent.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

My name is Andrea and I'm 40 years old.

My mom, Sharon, is 68 years old and has always had a meaningful and wide circle of friends.

Friends from high school and college and friends she made while she and my dad raised my sister and me.

She also had an extensive social network through my dad's colleagues.

He was a college professor at a university in Texas and the campus brought them many close friendships.

Friends they'd share dinner parties with, join on weekend trips, and see nearly every morning for the run club on campus.

My mom was also fortunate to be close with her own co-workers at her job in the college admissions office.

But a little over a year ago, my dad retired and they moved back to North Carolina where they both grew up.

My sister and I stayed in Texas and I think I saw this coming, but when I talked to my mom recently, she admitted she felt like she'd lost nearly every friend she'd ever made.

I know she'd already experienced some strain on her friendships in Texas, whether due to retirements or illness or divorce.

But this big move means all the social structures that once supported her friendships have vanished.

And with them, her connection to her cherished communities.

So my question is, how can my mom reframe her thinking around friendship during this pretty radically new chapter in her own life?

Whether that be gaining enthusiasm for making new friends in North Carolina or maintaining connections to her old friends without the help of built-in community and networks.

As her daughter, I am especially concerned with helping her to answer this question because of a fear she revealed to me that I really hadn't seen coming.

She told me she's actually feeling a brand new resistance to connecting with people because she knows that eventually more life change will just lead to more friendship loss.

How can I help my mom in her new feelings of loneliness and maybe reinvigorate her desire to make new friends in this brand new stage of life.

Thanks for your thoughts, Andrea.

There's a lot to unpack in that question.

And

can I dive in?

Please, please, yes.

I mean, there is so much going on there.

She's obviously, this is a woman who wrote that, right?

Yeah.

Her daughter.

Right.

She is obviously a very devoted daughter.

So to begin with, it brings up the idea of

getting older and starting to parent your own parents.

Oh, yes.

Which I've certainly been through, am going through, and I know you guys have as well.

So, and that's an amazing flipperoo

that you never anticipate when you're younger.

It doesn't even occur to you that all of a sudden, you know, she's worried about her mom making friends.

Aren't it usually your mom's worried about you making friends?

Exactly.

Exactly.

So, that's an incredible

thing.

But I see it as very surmountable.

You know we

we we recently uh lost our home in this horrible la fire

and so our community is gone yeah gone yeah and where we raised our children yeah and so i'm sort of wrestling with the same thing yeah um

and what i'm finding is

that if the focus is not necessarily meeting a friend which has kind of a i'm not saying it's a bad focus but a different stressor, it feels a different stressor.

It's oppressive, right?

Yeah, it's like you're, yeah, it's, you're putting pressure on yourself.

And maybe if the focus is, and this is what I'm trying to do, getting involved in community where you are,

you will find your people.

That's what I think.

Certainly, that's what I'm trying to do as we kind of work our way through this moment.

And my own parents recently went through the same thing that this woman's parents went through.

That is to say, they moved into a new community.

And it was hard for them.

But particularly, my mom became involved in

this garden community.

And I mean, there's something about taking action.

Yeah.

Yeah.

that can open up doors.

Yeah, yeah.

I think.

You're absolutely right.

One of the other things I hear in this question is, and that makes me kind of sad, but something to tie into is that

the listener's mother has expressed a fear and a hesitation around

the possibility of building new community because of the potential for loss.

I think that's worth her daughter, their family trying to unpack a little bit, right?

Because

it is completely right that building community is the focus.

But if you're afraid of that, if the very thought of, you know, doing that work and taking that kind of action makes you afraid because you could lose something.

Yes.

Oh, it's like, well, then you're, you could be stuck.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's part of.

friendship is taking that risk of loss.

And it, and it doesn't change because we're older.

In fact, that's always the case with friendship.

It's always the case with friendship, but I think specific to aging,

you will lose folks.

Exactly.

You are going to lose them naturally.

That's just

a part of it.

It's a part of

the stinks.

I know.

And

I'm not quite there yet, but we're headed there.

Yeah.

God willing in a weird way.

Maybe doing a deep dive into that fear is probably worth it for her mom

to do.

I had to

probably in my position as first lady, just as an object point for the listening mother.

I mean, one could have argued that there was every reason in the world for me in that position, me and my husband, to be afraid of making new friends, right?

Yeah, very good point.

I mean, you sort of think about it.

In fact, I know one of the things that Craig said when Barack ran and won, you may want to share that was.

was

no new friends.

Right.

You said, don't make new friends?

I said that to Misha and Barack.

I was like, watch out.

And I couldn't have been more wrong.

Right.

And oh, but that's fascinating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because the automatic

feeling, which would be natural, is you got to watch who you associate with in this position.

I mean, you don't know what their intentions are.

Precisely.

You know, so I understood the sentiment of the warning.

And as my big brother, you know, and we, we came from an already big established community, right?

So it wasn't like we were going into this thing without so, right?

Yeah.

But the difference for me was that I still had little kids, right?

I mean, my girls were 10 and seven, moving into a new neighborhood, a new community.

And my whole goal was to normalize their experience.

experience to not make them feel like these odd little kids with secret service that were outsiders, which meant that I couldn't.

I didn't have the luxury of saying no new friends, right?

Because when you're raising your kids, you have to be a part of a bigger community that they're in.

Yeah.

Otherwise you're screwed.

Otherwise you're screwed.

Right.

It was exactly the way it was.

So that push, that necessity was the absolute best thing.

You know, leaning into that fear, into that caution, it was the best thing that I did for myself and for my family.

And my point to the listener that I learned is that it was absolutely worth it.

And it was probably a very scary experience because it was not only, we not only faced the risk of loss, disappointment, but we could have met people who were men us no good, who we couldn't trust, who, you know, gossiped about us, who, you know, sold stories.

There were many things that could have gone wrong.

Right.

But the truth is, is that most people are really good folks.

Yeah.

You know, even when you're in a high-powered position, most people

are open

to

the new.

And I would say, too, in that circumstance, you're there, you're sort of looking at the community where your children are going to school.

You need to get to know these parents as a parent.

You must.

And so your

goal is not necessarily going in it to make friends.

Your goal is to understand where they are.

And then out of that comes relationships that you could count on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's pretty interesting, actually.

It's really, it's like fame on steroids.

Exactly.

It really is.

Yeah.

Because

I've had that

on a much smaller scale.

Same kind of, you know, when you're a famous person, it's weird getting out there sometimes.

And you, and people approach you and you're not sure what their intentions are about.

So if there's a way to, I don't know what, through an action, through a community, through the,

where there's sort of common ground

as there was at school, for example.

I mean, I don't know how your husband did it.

Well, he was dragged into it along with me because he also had the barrier of no time.

Right.

I mean, but.

in the face of that, because of my focus and determination and his interest, it was like, No, you got to go to parent-teacher conference.

And he wanted to go.

It's like, even if you don't have to go, you have to go.

Right.

You know, you have to get the school

normalized to you being

the type of engaged parent that you were before election night.

That's right.

And you were the father that went to parent-teacher conference.

Right.

You were the father that would coach your girls' basketball game league.

And he did.

I know he did.

But all of this is to say to our listener um for her mother is

it's worth the risk people will be waiting out there with open arms um people are kinder even though it doesn't feel that way these days yeah i've been in our country and i've been in every angle of it and it doesn't change overnight

and the vast majority of American people are good people.

Yeah, and they want to connect.

They want to connect.

And connection is the answer.

The connection.

Yeah.

Answer.

Yeah.

The answer.

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah.

I also want to address a little bit because Andrea is trying to help Sharon navigate this.

To your point, the daughter becoming the mother.

Tell me about it.

But

the husband is still there.

And I think totally lost him.

I know.

I know.

I know.

It's like that's

why I'm here.

Sorry, sir.

She's not a widow.

She's not a widow.

Although it sort of sounds like she is.

But that's my point.

That's my point.

I mean, this community shouldn't just be her community.

Tell me about it.

She should be trying to help her.

We need to bring the male voice in.

And I'm just saying this because when we were talking about this, this was such a foreign concept to me.

As a man.

As a man, just the kind of guy that I am, that

I would want, first I would want to know that my wife is suffering from this loneliness because we, if, if we up and move to North Carolina, I'd be trying to find somebody to play hoops with, or golf with, or uh, go to the cigar store with, or you know, whatever.

Yeah, I wouldn't be trying to help her

get inserted in the community, but I think that should be a team effort as opposed to just good to have a partner, yeah, and she has a partner, so it's time for

her partner to step up, yeah.

this episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed are you starting to think about the next step in your career or maybe you're thinking about making a career change indeed is the only place you need to actually find better work Just update your Indeed profile with your skills, experience, and salary expectations to start finding better work.

You'll automatically be matched with jobs that match what you're looking for.

The skills I've learned as a player have followed me throughout my career, from a business person to a coach to an executive in sports.

It all came down to the same three things, hard work, discipline, and the ability to work with a lot of different personalities.

You don't have to have it all figured out.

It's all about getting yourself in the game.

So when better opportunities come your way, you're ready to jump in.

Update your Indeed profile and get matched with better work today.

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

Financial security isn't just about the here and now.

It's about the future.

That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain, maintain, and build wealth through home ownership.

For over 80 years, Progressive has led with the belief that insurance should do more than just protect.

It should propel people forward.

Their commitment to not only helping more first-generation homeowners stay protected, but also support communities through Progressive's down payment assistance program, the Up Payment Program, which will help drive real impact, making the dream of home ownership more attainable for everyone.

You know, my wife Kelly and I are currently in the process of redoing our bathroom.

We just started out and haven't done the demolition yet, but we know that this will add to the value of our house.

So thank you, Progressive, for helping families plan ahead and for sponsoring our show.

Visit progressive.com/slash open the house to learn more.

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card.

I love when things just work.

No hassle, no confusion, just simple and seamless.

That's exactly what I I found with my Apple Card.

Applying was unbelievably easy.

I did it right from my iPhone, saw my credit limit offer, and got approved in minutes.

And because Apple Card lives in the wallet app on my iPhone, I always have it with me.

One of my favorite things, daily cashback.

I mean, who doesn't love getting rewarded for what you're already buying?

You can apply in the wallet app on your iPhone and start using it right away.

Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch.

Terms and more at applecard.com.

This might be a hot take, but you shouldn't need a premium subscription to get a premium job.

You shouldn't have to network to find work.

And most importantly, you shouldn't have to scroll through endless amounts of humble brags just to see who's hiring.

That's what's so great about an Indeed profile.

It lets you find better work based on what you know, not who you know.

Add your skills, certifications, and experience to your NDED profile to get matched with jobs that are a better fit for you.

For each section you add to your profile, you'll be twice as likely to be noticed by a hiring manager.

Ready to find better work?

Let an Indeed profile match you with your next job today.

So that's some advice that we could give Andrea is talk to your dad.

Talk to your dad.

Talk to your dad.

Is your dad involved in this too?

100%.

What is dad?

Yeah.

Is he

sitting in the chair doing the same thing?

Like over and over and over again.

Or is he trying to think of ways for them to creatively connect together and then in their community?

Great, great point.

Yeah.

Craig.

Well, I appreciate it.

Robinson.

So, do you think that you,

in your marriage,

have you?

Well,

we're not at a point.

But think ahead.

Well, I'm thinking, all right, I'll think ahead because we're not at a point now.

We're so around the corner.

There, you

are going to be gone.

Get old enough to go to college.

How old are the youngest ones again?

15 and 13.

So we got six years, six years.

And six years

will be empty nesters.

And our plan is to figure out the most optimal place to be where we can enjoy them the most.

Yep, that's smart.

But we're not going to, we're not planning on jettising our friends because we're empty nesters.

And I've always thought you all do a great job of that with your friends because your girls are grown and

you intentionally get together with your friends on a regular basis.

Yeah, you have to be intentional.

Yes.

Yeah.

I do the same thing.

But I have advice for you for when your kids, when the younger kids leave in five years, not six, by the way.

You have to have a

right.

But anyway, what I want to tell you is you just make sure that after they leave, all their, the sheets on their bed are high-quality sheets.

And that bed is the most comfortable bed they ever slept in in their life.

And they'll always come back.

Oh, gosh.

Yeah.

We call it.

No, no, we, Barack and I, we are all about creating what we call the attractive nuisance.

Thank you.

We just, we want to

make it so that you want to be back here.

Yeah.

And we're starting, they're old enough now, right?

Because there's that period when they just leave and they're in their early 20s and they're just like, bye.

See ya.

We're living our lives and we're so happy to be sleeping on a dirty mattress in college.

And they're just now getting to the point where they hang around just a little couple of days longer because the tub is clean, right?

Yeah, that's right.

And their bath salts.

Their bath salts smell good and appreciate it.

There's a lot of stuff in their fridge.

That's right.

That's right.

That's what they say.

And there's food we can actually eat.

I like the sheets idea, though.

That's a tricky one because they wouldn't necessarily figure that out.

They get used to the foulness.

That's right.

That's right.

But, Julia, I want to ask you a question.

What are some of the strategies that you use to keep your friends who are your friends?

Well, I've got friends from different sections of my life, right?

Um, we travel a lot together, yeah, yeah.

And my group of friends from elementary school, we try to have a reunion once a year somewhere.

We all get together, and it's so funny.

You become, it's like you're 12 again.

We start howling, laughing over the dumbest things you ever heard of in your life.

And

so, I make

particularly nowadays, I'm making a real effort to have adventures with these people.

Yeah, travel is a good thing.

We do a lot of that stuff.

You know, joining crafts, taking up hobbies with your friends, trying some, you know, so you don't.

What hobbies have you taken up?

What crafts?

Well, you know, we've had, I've had girlfriends who have organized some.

Zumba classes, some hip-hop classes that we've said to do more of, you know, so I'm, I'm saying to

our listeners, Sharon, you know, some of the ideas, it's like, you know, you can get your girls together from around the country to try a new thing.

You know, they can come and visit you and you set up a cooking class

or you learn how to knit or you take up tennis.

Right now, several of my girlfriends have gotten into playing tennis.

And we don't always get to play together.

But when we are together, now that there are many who have taken lessons and taken up the sport, we'll go find a court, we'll hit, you know, and that has become a bonding opportunity.

By the way, you know, tennis I heard is supposed to be so good for aging.

Did you hear that?

I've heard, yeah, I've heard it.

It has something to do with the mind-to-eye coordination.

I'm not sure exactly.

And also the lateral movement as well as the pounding.

Yep.

But

I can't say anything more than that.

But anyway, do it.

Yeah.

Just do it.

Well, the advice is that, you know, learning something new

with your friends or with a new group of people, that's another.

If we're talking about ideas that we have for building community, new community or sustaining old community, that's, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends, we just figure out something new.

We want to learn, we want to try, and we do it together.

It's more fun to do it together.

But intentionality is,

as you mentioned, Julia, is a word for the day.

And if Sharon goes to her new place and she sits in her fear and her loneliness and she says, and she bemoans what she lost

and doesn't think about ways of viewing this as a new opportunity to stay open and to meet new people and not to focus on the possibility of loss, there are so many ways to.

To not to break out and not be alone.

That's right.

I think we live in a culture nowadays and it's not just older people, but unfortunately

younger folks who have

lived through COVID, they've gotten too attached to their phones.

They live online.

I mean this is why studies are showing that we're seeing

unprecedented levels of loneliness and anxiety

because we've gotten out of the habit of building friends, building community or the understanding that it's as humans, that's something that we need.

We need each other.

Yeah, it is not a luxury.

Yeah, right, exactly.

It's a necessity.

Right, right.

Our phones are not a necessity.

Our phones are a luxury.

Right.

And they cannot replace the thing that community and friendship.

uh provides to us regardless of the age but especially as we get older you know um and because we know that we're going to experience loss that that's the that's the end of the story you know yeah yeah And I would want Sharon to keep that muscle of community building active.

Yes.

Cause it is a muscle.

You know, if you, you get out of the habit of starting anew,

learning something new, you know, that, that's what's ahead of me.

I'm 61 and all I'm thinking about in the future is what new things am I going to learn.

What are you going to learn?

You know, right now I'm focused on tennis.

Yes.

You know, I don't know.

Maybe I'll go back to the piano one day.

It was an instrument that I started to play as a little girl.

Haven't touched it since then.

But maybe, maybe

I'll find the time to start taking lessons.

You know, I'm doing tennis.

too.

My husband gave me tennis lessons for my birthday.

So

I'm going to do that.

And I'm taking French lessons now.

Okay.

Yeah.

From scratch, had you ever started?

I know.

I do know some French, but I'm trying to like take it up a level now.

That's my goal.

Oh, I hope I can do it.

Yeah.

But all these new activities for Sharon are an opportunity, especially if you do them in groups.

If you sign up for a tennis clinic, you're going to meet somebody.

Totally.

I would just say don't do things in.

in isolation.

In solo.

Yeah.

You know, take some classes, go into community.

Yes.

join a gym.

And as we get older, we should embrace the fact that we have more time.

You know, I mean, we aren't parenting our kids anymore.

They are parenting us.

We're not worrying about whether they're getting home on time or whether they did their homework.

I mean,

this stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free.

Yeah.

There's a real release where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going.

It's totally about me.

And Sharon, you know, if she thinks about it like that, wow, she's got a new freedom.

She's starting over in a new city.

There's so much to learn and to see and to do.

It's like, this is, this is when we start living, ladies.

Yeah.

This is the age when we're free.

Yeah.

Well, you, you both have talked about

maintaining friendships.

Have either of you, Julia, have you or Misha, have you

lost any friends at this stage?

Have you,

and if so, what are some strategies on how to bounce back from that?

Well, it sort of depends on what the circumstances are.

I mean, I've lost friends.

I've had a couple friends die,

and that has been devastating because it was

just truly unfair of the universe.

So I'd like to lodge a complaint.

But

so that's just a lot of grief to reconcile.

And grief is sort of a separate,

I mean, grief from actual loss of life is its own thing.

But then I've also lost friends because we sort of moved on.

Yeah.

And there's something

kind of freeing about that.

You know, a couple of relationships that were a little bit toxic had me doubting myself too much and

head games and stuff.

And there was a moment in which it was like, oh,

oh, yeah, right.

I don't have to do this anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And how about you?

Oh, for sure, for sure.

Both, both and,

you know, and

i've experienced loss of friends throughout my life i mean one of my best friends from from college died suddenly of lymphoma you know at the the tender age of 20 in our in our 20s you know and you know that's a like you said that's a different kind of loss than losing your grandmother or losing you know someone in the

natural order order yeah um

and i think for me that loss woke me up at a time in life when I was just starting to define myself as a young adult and a young professional.

That was the time in my life where I thought, well, what am I doing with my life?

Right.

Right.

She lost hers, and there was no reason.

She was one of the sweetest, kindest people that I ever knew.

So it made me think, well, do I really want to finish out this life on the 47th floor as an associate in a big corporate law firm?

Sounds fabulous.

Is that my, is that my fate?

Is that why I'm left here and she, you know?

And the answer to that was, nah, there's, there's got to be something more, you know, and what am I afraid of?

And that, that decision as a result of that loss

opened my eyes to not the nonprofit world, city government, public service, you know?

So

that loss turned out to be one of the things that provided me with the foundation of who I am.

Yes.

But they're definitely the friendships that, like you said, Julia, just sort of ran their course.

You know, that's okay.

And I, I,

as I age, I am more grateful every day of the friendships that I've invested in and maintained.

Yeah.

They are my lifeblood.

Um, and I love my husband and we are dear friends.

Um, but we don't do the same things all the time.

We have different interests and we have.

And I think that's healthy.

It is completely healthy.

That way.

You know, and we have wonderful times apart and we travel differently and he'll go off with his friends and golf and I'll hike a mountain, which he's not going to do.

You know, definitely not.

So I would hope that for Sharon and her husband, that it becomes even more important.

with him alive that they continue to build together and separately.

By the way, they're still young.

68?

68, really?

Come on.

Not even 70.

Now it's not the time to tap out.

No, do not tap out.

Too much.

This is just the beginning.

Yeah.

You know, it only gets better.

Well, just for clarity for Andrea.

Yes, yes.

Let's give Andrea some strategies to take back to Sharon.

And the biggest one I'm hearing is your community, right?

I actually think she should start by talking to her dad.

Okay, that was on my list too, but that was down for me.

Bring dad into bring dad into this situation this is not her burden alone yeah

and uh but community community community yeah okay surely surely she has some interests that they can she was a cultivate professor correct and do i get that right that i think her husband was

the husband is the professor but she was a professional well she was a professional and she worked at the university so

so she's she's got interest

The second thing I would say is intentionality.

It's like friendship and community doesn't happen on its own.

I don't care who you are or

how wonderful a person you are, whether you're shy or outgoing.

Friendship requires intentionality.

That's right.

Planning, scheduling, prioritizing.

All of it has to be a part of it.

It is, it does take work.

So say yes.

Say yes.

Yeah.

Say yes.

Say yes.

Well, you know, this, this has been really helpful for me.

Uh, and I hope it's helpful for Andrea and Shane.

Yeah.

Thank you, Julia.

It's great spending time with you.

It's so nice.

You are on time.

You are a wise woman.

Wisish.

Wisish.

Wiser than most.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister, Michelle, here.

We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.

We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you.

You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes.

What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you.

Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective.

So consider questions like this.

What activities take up my time, but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?

Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else, but is not very important to me?

If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose?

And here's a question.

Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends?

You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier.

With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values.

In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get, and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.

For more great advice, search for happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.