What Every Woman Should Know About Menopause with Dr. Sharon Malone

could have been an uncomfortable discussion for a guy.

It absolutely was not.

It was the opposite.

I felt safe and informed and educated.

Did you feel safe?

Oh, let's hold his hand.

He felt safe.

You see, this is.

You are safe, people.

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Alloy Women's Health.

Hey, you.

Hi, Craig.

It's Michelle Obama in her favorite place.

In Martha's Vineyard, in this beautiful barn in

Chillmark on the Vineyard.

I like Chillmark.

It's the perfect name for it.

Chill.

It's Chill.

Martha.

I'm sure there's a deeper meaning to the name of the town.

But yeah, one of my happy places.

How you been?

I've been good.

You know what I did this trip?

I'm so proud of myself.

What'd you do?

I got some pictures of myself taken all around the vineyard.

Oh, fancy pants.

Down by the port

where they

in Edgartown and where you could see the lighthouse.

By Harbor View.

By the Harbor View Hotel.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know how I booked it?

How?

On Airbnb.

Oh, okay.

You can book services and experience.

Oh, wait, wait, wait.

You booked a photo shoot?

I booked my own photo shoot.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't book it.

You know,

my secretary.

So that's a part of the special amenities,

the new yes approach to airbnb the experience you can you can get different kinds of services you can get a chef you can get uh

a tour guide and you can get a photographer so i got a photographer well that's very cool i know i'll send you the shots this generation which likes to photograph themselves everywhere their food their you know that that's a great idea yeah um so did you i i can't wait to see the photos we got to post them up on uh

social media.

Yeah.

Were you cute?

Of course I was cute.

All right.

Well, wonderful.

Wonderful.

And I, a little birdie, as dad would say, a little birdie told me, you have another book coming out.

How come I didn't know about it?

I do.

You did know.

You weren't probably weren't paying attention.

That could be true.

But we, you know, announced in the summer that my third book is coming out.

And I'm really excited about this book because it's called The Look, and it's all about my fashion evolution, something that I never talked about as First Lady because I didn't want, you know, to be limited to what I looked like or what I wore, but that was definitely an important part of my journey.

So, the book is

structured like a coffee table book.

Oh, yeah.

But it's beautiful photos, um, but a lot of wonderful essays.

Um, the foreword is written by uh Farah Griffin, who is a professor of sociology, the dean of everything at Columbia.

I co-wrote it with Meredith Coop, who's my stylist.

Yes, Meredith.

And we also have her story in there.

We have my whole, what I call my trifecta story,

makeup, hair, all the team that worked on those.

You hear from them.

You hear about the journey behind all that went into waking up every morning and being the first lady.

And so it's coming out in November.

And

we are going to have a special IMO podcast on the look,

a limited IMO series that will go deep into some of those stories.

Wow.

So the secrets will be out.

The secrets will be out.

And it's fun.

beautiful, it's insightful because it's not just about fashion, it's about how we show up in the world, what it takes, how we're the lens with which we oftentimes as women are struggling to break free of as we're doing substantive things in the world.

It talks about hair, the black girl hair experience, all of that, all the things that I never talked about.

I do it in this book.

And we will be doing it on the podcast.

So,

so our listeners know, you can pre-order the look.

It is available wherever you get books.

I can't do it.

Our first little teaser.

Yes.

Something.

But we got some more teasers

because our guest today is the first returning guest that we've had here on IMMO.

She was such a hit all across the land.

And people had so many health questions.

We thought we'd bring her back.

Yes.

We are talking about Dr.

Sharon Malone.

Craig, you can run down our bio.

Yeah, well, of course, Dr.

Malone is a nationally recognized OBGYN with over 30 years of experience and now a New York Times bestseller.

Yes, indeed.

Her book, Grown Woman Talk,

and she has also been a longtime advocate for practical information on women's health and aging.

She is now also the host of her own podcast from Higher Ground, The Second Opinion.

Please welcome our dear friend, Sharon Malone,

subject matter expert extraordinaire.

Shout out.

Hi, sweetie.

Welcome back

to the IMO table.

Can you get in there?

Backed by popular demand.

I can get in there, as they say.

I mean, folks, just love,

love

you on the first episode

that you were here

because you are fabulous.

You are killing it on the book front.

And it's not just

the information in the book.

It's the information provider.

Sharon, you know, I think everybody here knows that you have been one of my best friends, one of the happy places in my life for a long, long time.

And I just want to take some time for people to really get to know Sharon, you know, not Dr.

Malone, the Sharon that I know, because one of the reasons I think your book has been so popular is that it shows your voice through and through.

You know,

you are not just a substantive expert in the field, but you are funny as all get out.

Your music taste is sublime

and your voice just rings true.

Were you always a comedian?

No, you know, I'm a survivor.

And, you know, let me just say, when you're the youngest of eight children, you have to learn how to bob and weave.

You know, it's like you can't beat anybody.

So you better figure out a way to be

the youngest by a long way.

The youngest by the way.

You wildly, oops, baby.

Now that's, those are your words.

That is correct because I have to own that.

But the age span between.

the oldest and the youngest in my family is 23 years.

Wow.

So my oldest brother was married when I was born.

Got it.

And then there's seven years between me and the next sibling.

So, you know, I had my way with no one.

So, you know, you just learn how to, you know, disarm people, perhaps with a little humor, so they won't beat you up.

Because that's the key in life: just when you're growing up, you just don't want to get beat up.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And back in the day when I was growing up, they really would beat you up.

It wasn't like they were just threatening.

Oh, they're going to beat you up.

Yeah, back in the day, folks still fought.

Yes, they did.

I remember you were telling me about your

early school years and how you were, you told me the story about how you were always the smart kid and you would do everybody else's homework.

Tell me, tell us about survival skills.

I'm telling you, you know,

not only was I the youngest in my family, but I used to be a skinny little girl, you know.

So again, I couldn't control anybody at home and I couldn't control anybody at school either.

So, you know, I'd be sitting there and it's like, Sharon, and I'd say,

oh, yes, you'd like to see my homework?

No problem.

I give you the math homework, do that.

But you, you know, hey, you got to do what you got to do, right?

I didn't get beat up.

So, so both of you all have kept this really tight circle of friends, not just here on Martha's Vineyard, but throughout your lives.

And can you talk a little bit about what community has meant to you and

how it's helped you over the years in your practice?

Community is everything.

And, you know, I also had the unfortunate experience of losing my mother when I was 12 years old.

So I moved a lot.

Okay.

You know, so when my mother died, I moved to Atlanta and I was, you know, new family, living with my older sister.

I went to a new school in a new state.

And you have to figure, you have to find it because I wasn't, I never moved with my family.

family you know it was always just me and I lived in Atlanta for two years and I lived in Dallas for a year another year I came back to Mobile and every place I went to just to combat the loneliness that you feel and particularly loneliness in the face of loss yeah um you know I found people and I found people at school or people at church that

could really help fill up some of that empty space that I had.

Yeah, yeah.

How did you become such a survivor?

I mean, where do you think you got that from because you lost your mother young your father was much he was an older parent yeah by a lot you were kind of like an only child i was like an only child i was uh i say i was a free-range child because when you live with siblings even though they're older than you

that's not the relationship that we had had this is you know my sister you know and the the the happiest thing you could say when someone would tell you to do something like you're not my mother You're not my father.

And you, you whip that out a lot.

Occasionally, yeah, I was kind of a pain, but

I really, I don't know where it comes from, but I know, I do know this, that that sense of resilience and the sense of feeling as if I may be down, but I'm not out.

I think I got that from my mother

because, you know, as difficult as things were for me, my mother also lost her mother when she was only 14.

And she was the one who was really in charge of taking care of her younger siblings.

So, you know, relatively speaking, you know, my life was way easier than her life, even though they both were difficult in, you know, in different ways.

But my mom was really pretty an amazing woman.

And I'm glad that

at least I got to know her for 12 years.

And, you know, and some people don't get that.

And I, she was amazing and strong and smart.

But here's the thing: smart people,

but they were smart at the wrong time.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

They didn't have the opportunity

to show how smart they were.

But, you know, I saw it.

I still feel it.

And I still, you know, every time

I think of her and even my older sister, I still hear her voice in my head.

And that's, she's been gone over 50 years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At what age did you say, all right, I think I want to be a doctor?

Or did that not come till later on?

Because I think all of us wanted to be a doctor at some point.

We just didn't have the brain power.

We didn't have

to stick it out early on.

It's like, ooh, math.

There's math in being a doctor.

Well, count me out.

Well, you know, you know what's funny is that The thought occurred to me when I was probably in third grade.

And third grade was the first time that I had ever heard anybody's parent who was a doctor.

You know, my parents were working class people, and as were most of the people in our neighborhood.

And you grew up in Alabama,

Alabama, segregated Mobile, Alabama.

But I didn't really know professional people.

And so, but the other thing that I talk about a lot in my book is the fact that I didn't grow up having any experience of even interacting with doctors.

You know, I was taken care of by Dr.

Mom.

You know, my mom knew, growing up where she did in the rural South, she knew a lot of

remedies, home remedies.

And she, I told you, she was really smart about most things.

But there was a point at which, you know,

your skill set, you know, is exceeded.

And that is unfortunately why my mother lost her life.

But, but I say that to say, I was like, wow.

there's a black kid in my class and his dad is a doctor and it's about knowing you know just see what you can see

That was the biggest thing I could think of to be was a doctor.

And that idea got in my head.

And, you know, when you're a smart kid and you can do math and science, you kind of, it just kind of, it get, it got a life of its own.

Oh, Sharon's going to be a doctor.

Sharon's going to be a doctor.

And, you know, here I am.

Did you feel like you had the same challenges that girls today have being taken seriously in math and science?

Or did you feel like there are a lot of girls who just don't go into the field because they don't think they have math brains or they're the only ones in the advanced math class?

What was that like for you as a young black girl growing up in Mobile, being a STEM kid, essentially?

You know what's funny is I think that, you know, everything leads to something else.

And being the youngest of eight kids and growing up in the deep south and segregation, I started first grade in 1965.

My sister had just graduated from the University of Alabama.

She had integrated the University of Alabama in 1963.

So everyone in my family for generations and generations, no one had ever been to an integrated school until Vivian integrated the University of Alabama, but she was 20 years old.

There was a Catholic school that was across the street from my house.

It was literally, I could throw a rock and hit the playground.

And that school had always been white.

And in 1965, I think my mother felt emboldened.

So she was like, well, if Vivian can go to the University of Alabama, you can go to the school across the street.

So I went to that Catholic school for two years.

And there was a nun there.

And her name was Sister Miriam Regina.

And bless her heart, she

let me be smart.

You know, even though I was only one of two little black kids in class, she

affirmed the fact that I was smart.

She would say, you know, she would say, Sharon, you take the reading group and go in the the back, that kind of thing.

And so from the very beginning, I never had that feeling that someone was smarter than me.

You know, I'm in a class full of white kids and I'm like, well, I'm a smart kid here.

But I didn't have that gender thing either, because even when I went back to segregated schools, there were boys, there were girls, and everybody was kind of on your own.

If you were the smart kid, you were the smart kid.

You didn't have to.

you know, hide your light.

And you really had to love what you do, not just because you're good at it, but I don't know that a lot of people know that you,

in the midst of becoming a doctor, being a doctor, starting your own practice, you also had three little kids and a husband,

our former attorney general, Eric Holder, who had,

as one of the things that bonded us, he had a career that just took.

you to places that you might not have wanted to go, but there you have it.

And I want people to, you know, just talk about what it was like for you with three,

you know, back-to-back children and maintaining a thriving practice and getting to be a doctor.

This segment is brought to you by Alloy Women's Health.

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We're on a mission to make evidence-based menopause care accessible, starting with real doctors who specialize in perimenopause and menopause.

You know, I am the chief medical advisor at Alloy Women's Health, and I feel like we're having a full circle moment here because it all started with you.

Almost exactly five years ago to the day you and I did a little podcast on menopause.

We sure did.

And believe it or not, That podcast led to the founders of Alloy, Ann Fullenwater and Monica Mellenauer, who is in Rotterdam.

They listened to that podcast, heard me, and said, wow, we need that woman to be part of Alloy.

But it all started with you.

And I think that says a lot about the credibility that you have because

they figure if she's good enough for Michelle Obama, she must be okay for our company.

And I've never looked back since.

What wisdom have you gained through your health journey that you wish more women would speak openly about?

Sharon, we talk about this all the time.

I just

want women to

own their bodies.

I mean, I want us to be more aware of how we feel physically.

So many women are taught to ignore our bodies, you know, not to sweat, not to uh not to overexert ourselves.

But what I've learned over the years is that knowing my body and understanding my healthy baseline, knowing what my body is supposed to feel like when everything works helps me

know when something's going wrong.

So I don't just exercise and eat right and get sleep because I want to look good.

I also want to know in my body what health feels like.

So I always encourage women to understand that how they feel physically is as important as they look.

You know, I always tell my patients that because honestly, no one knows how you feel but you.

And being able to communicate that effectively is everything.

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Well, you know, I am not going to lie, it was really hard.

And when I look back on that now and I say to myself, wait a minute, at some point

in my life, I had a newborn, a two-year-old, and a four-year-old.

And my husband was doing his thing, you know,

you know, and I, but I knew that.

And it was just, it's such a blur, you know, and that's why Michelle and I could always relate because I was like, I was mad through the night, all of the 1990s.

You know, I didn't come out of the other side of it.

I'm like, wait a minute.

Oh, y'all can, can you be left alone?

Okay.

That's when I was like,

but it was, it's, it's a lot.

So you were mad, though.

Oh my God.

Are you kidding me?

Because this would be, you know, my husband would say, okay, I'm on my way home.

I said, okay.

And then hours later, children are in bed.

And then he'd let the garage door up.

I'm like, and they're like, daddy's home.

And I'll wake them up.

I'm like, oh, ouch.

But you know what?

See, it's all relative.

It's all relative.

And I always had to say to myself, I was like, okay, Sharon, get a hold, get a grip.

I had a lot more resources than my mother had.

um

by the time my mother was my age i think she had she had seven children i only had three so i was like you know say i i should be able to manage this should be able to manage that and she didn't even have disposable diapers so surely i could surely

so but you were on 20 call too i mean this is because you were delivering babies uh and with babies i was and had to be up for 24 48 hour shifts.

Yeah.

You know what?

You know what that led to?

Right.

So when I've got all these little children and I have two girls and I have a boy, and the day before my 40th birthday, that was the day of the big chop.

Okay.

One day I had a ponytail.

I went to work in the morning and I had a ponytail.

I had a perm and strong, late, straight hair and it was all back in a ponytail.

And after work, I went to the hairdresser and I came home and I looked like this.

And it's like, I can't deal with one extra hair.

I can't do it.

And honestly, I think, I think my husband thought I had had a nervous breakdown between 8 a.m.

and 6 when I got home.

And he was like, honey, are you okay?

I said, yeah, I'm good.

I'm good.

Best thing I've ever done.

I've not grown it back one time since, and that was 25 years old.

Wow.

Yeah.

But that's something, you got to do what you got to do.

You got to do what you got to do.

This is, this is is why we are friends because we spend all our time talking about, girl, how are we getting through this?

Exactly.

Exactly.

But the way you get through it is really with community, with your friends.

Because on those many times when, you know, my husband couldn't get home or I had to go somewhere, sometimes you just call up your friends, say, girl, I got to run here.

Can you come over here and sit with the kids for a while?

That is how I think that even through the most difficult times, you know, we made it through because I had this really wonderful community of girlfriends.

I had them then.

I have, and you've met a lot of them.

They're still around to this day.

Well, that's the beauty.

We've met each other's friends.

I mean, that's how the friendship circle works, at least with us.

I know with a lot of women friend groups.

I mean, our friends have become friends with one another.

I mean, I know Dee De and Bonnie and your other Michelle, your other Michelle, and, you know, all those characters play, you know, they live vividly in my head

because they've been such an important part of your life.

That's exactly right.

And we, and we know each other's stories, you know, and it's nice to see those characters come to life because, you know, we talk about our friends all the time.

So, you know, that's the, I think that's the really wonderful part about being of womanhood is that we do sort of naturally

sort of create communities.

We have to.

We have to.

Yeah.

And we started, you know, the story goes, we talked about this when you first came, your first visit to IMO.

But one of our bonding experiences were these boot camps that I would hold at Camp David for my old friends and new friends.

We did it about three times a year.

A weekend, we'd go to Camp David.

We'd have our trainer there.

We'd have all the Marines there.

And it was my version of wellness, although

I was a little too

harsh about it.

But you know what?

Let me just say this about your sister.

Okay.

She's always ahead of the curve.

So now everybody's got a wellness retreat and a wellness weekend.

We were doing this 17 years ago, you know, before it was a thing.

So that's why I said, what she said.

Oh, I thought you were going to say that she was a little bit competitive.

And

that's why I said it.

We know.

Well, we go on the walks.

I'm like, I'm going to just stay back here with the slow group.

Bike ride.

She's got to be in the front.

That's all right.

I'm good.

See,

I'm secure about that.

No, I'm with you.

And I'm with you.

That's Sharon.

Sharon says no to a lot of stuff.

She's like, you know what?

I'm going to go on a third of that walk, and then I'll see you back

at the bar.

You know what?

I'd like to say that I am personally responsible for reinstituting.

a wine, a little wine hour.

Oh, again, because before Sharon was the advocate, it was dry.

It was dry and then for the third time people were like i don't know if i'm coming if we can't drink at all so we would have been a one-person boot camp it would have been like okay i'm about to lose all my friends they would have let me just say in the little rooms you'd have min m's you have the you go there the m's will be gone right because they have all

that all my friends have been to camp david out of outside of the boot camp weekends so they know what's usually

there yeah and they get to share with the audience like with it what's what is it like when it's not booking well you there's candy everywhere

everywhere and cookies it's supposed to be a delightful retreat there's a little changri-la inn where you can get bar food oh yeah you know my friends wings and things my friends would be lying and eating the healthy dinner but then going to changri-la and getting some fried food and i'd be like this defeats the purpose but The, you know, one of the things I knew about Sharon is like Sharon could hang because we were doing stuff like we were playing dodgeball, you know.

I mean, women of all ages.

Remember Susan, one of our friends who at the time was in her 70s, and we were competing with dodgeball with her.

Oh, no, tell me you didn't hit her with a dodgeball.

Well, she wasn't on my team, and she was always the last person standing because nobody wanted to hit her.

Yeah, you know, that would, we could have, we could have, but we would,

you know, and I'm like, well, come on, somebody take her out, just take her out at her knees, you know.

everybody was like, oh, so Susan B standing there, always the last man standing, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Relay races.

But

I want to know, Sharon, how

if you're, if you were your own patient, how would you describe yourself as a doctor?

Oh, I would be the one in there really asking the questions.

And I would be like, are you sure?

You know, see, cause I'm not shy when it comes to that kind of advocacy because because I always had to advocate for myself because I had no one else to do it for me.

You know, I didn't go to, I didn't, we didn't have, you know, people go to pediatricians' appointments for just well children checkup.

That wasn't a thing.

Never.

We went, you got shots at school.

And nobody got braces.

No, no, no, no.

I can tell you what kind of doctor she is.

If I had grown up and lived in DC, and if we didn't have Walter Reed, the Presidential Medical Center, I would be among the many, many patients who are loyal to Dr.

Malone throughout the D.C.

area.

I mean, everybody, she has delivered every child that we know.

She has taken care of them through adolescence.

And you imagine

you birth a child and then you see them through to, if it's a girl, maybe maybe you're talking to them about birth control.

You know, you see some people into their adulthood because not only is Sharon good, but she can,

she provides, she's, she's, the confidentiality is real.

There is no slippage.

I don't know who half your patients are.

You never talked about who your patients were, but everybody walked up and said, for of all races throughout DC, I've been with Sharon for many years.

My wife is with her.

My daughters are with her.

She is the go-to doctor.

And I realized that, you know, started to realize how valuable that was during the boot camp weekends where we would,

after we punished ourselves and ate salad and maybe had a glass of wine, we'd sit around and we just started talking about life and questions.

And it often led to

what was going on with us, our bodies, as we aged.

And Sharon was always there with just clear, practical guidance and advice that, you know, she's everybody's second opinion.

You know, and maybe that's a good segue to talk about your new show, because that's another reason why we've got you on here is because you've been so popular with our IMO listeners, and your book has been so popular that we are bringing you into the IMO family with your own podcast called Second Opinion.

Can you talk a bit about your show?

You know, first I want to say thank you for that.

But, you know, I wanted to be, I always modeled my professional career over, you know, I would say, around the concept

that

I'm not the doctor in your patient.

Okay.

That's not how that hierarchical thing.

Oh, got you.

Yeah.

Where doctors sometimes patronize?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where you got to feel or I have to talk down to you because I know what it feels like being on that other side of it.

You know, I know what that meant for my mother and family members to not be able to have, you know, adequate health care, particularly in the segregated South.

So I wanted to come to the second opinion with the same, with that same attitude.

You know, I do hear you and I see you and I understand what you're talking about, but I'm going to give you some advice in a way that you can understand it.

And you know this, there's not a time when I'm out somewhere and someone who I just met will start, they'll say, oh, you're a doctor?

And then they'll start asking me the questions that they should have asked their doctor.

But they don't have time to.

And that's why I want the second opinion to be that show.

I want it to be approachable.

I want people, I want to talk about the things that people really have questions about, that you don't have time to talk about in your doctor's office, or that you, for whatever reason, may have been too intimidated or felt as if, no, that's a stupid question.

There is no stupid question.

Or may not even been trained to ask the question.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Sometimes you don't even know what the possibilities are.

And there's an intimidation factor.

I mean, especially when it comes to women and people of color.

You know, we don't.

We don't know that we're supposed to question authority.

We're not socialized to feel that way.

So

you have always been a safe space for all of our friends, our community.

Sometimes you just need the reassurance that there's somebody who loves you, you know, who cares about you and sees you,

who is, you know, pointing you in the right direction.

And that's been the history of just women's interaction with doctors.

I mean, we've not been believed, we've not been seen, you're being hysterical.

And when you're talking about black women, then there is also this incredibly ingrained

bias.

We think that black women, oh, well, you're being, you know, you're just being extra or you can take it, you know, and we know this because we have data that says that, you know, black women are constant, you know, are consistently under medicated for pain,

not believed, undertreated.

for conditions that they actually do have.

I mean, and that's, there's a lot of robust data about that.

And so, you know, I, what I wanna do, and like, let me, I'm gonna be completely clear.

I don't know everything.

That's why the show is called The Second Opinion, because there are gonna be things that I don't know.

I may not know the answer, but I know who to call.

And I also know the questions.

to give you such that when you see your doctor, you know the right questions to ask.

But you're right, Craig.

Sometimes you don't even know what the universe is.

You just take that as, oh, well, I guess that's what my doctor said.

But is it, is that the right thing for you?

That's the mindset I want people to have.

And in this world of social media, where people are way too reliant on their own search engines to answer deep medical, I mean, but I think that's just the,

it's a reflection of how intimidating the medical process is.

I mean, people would rather go online and feel the,

what they mislabel as independence.

You know, it's like, or, you know, a lot of people don't even have access.

They don't have doctors to call.

So especially this generation of young people who are going on WebMD and they're looking up symptoms and they're self-diagnosing or they're seeking out their own medication and all of that.

That.

that has become a growing

sort of practice among a whole generation of people, which I find completely dangerous.

Can you talk a bit about that?

Hey, everybody, Craig Robinson here.

And you guys have heard me talk a lot about how much I love staying in Airbnbs.

Well, our family is planning a trip out to the West Coast to visit our daughter.

And we were thinking, man, it's going to be hard to roll up in her two-bedroom apartment with six people.

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Guest Favorites are the most loved homes on Airbnb by other guests.

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I think that the exposure of social media, particularly when it comes to medical issues, I mean, it is, there's a lot of good that has come from it because

it has, we've raised the awareness of a lot of issues, particularly when it comes to menopause and perimenopause.

And I think that

the conversation that you and I had five years ago really sort of opened the floodgates because you were one of the first people who said the word menopause.

Oh, yeah, and I'm in it.

And now it's a conversation that that has been you know that is never ending so that's good

that's great it's it's really neat because

uh

as as a husband and a father and a son because you know the first time i heard about menopause was from my mom and she was just talking about hot flashes so she wasn't like i don't even remember her ever talking about hot flashes she would say it to me she would say it to me when in and when she was having one and she's like oh i'm having a hot flash And I was like, I knew what a hot flash was and I knew what it indicated, I should say.

I didn't know what it was.

I knew what it indicated.

And so there are many men who can't even support the women in their lives because we have

no idea what's going on.

And so I'm so happy that we're talking about this.

from a from a man standpoint, because not only do we not know what's going on, we're not like women.

Like Kelly goes to all of my appointments, I never go to her appointments.

And I'm sure, I mean,

I'm sure you don't see too many husbands coming in for their wives Obi Guinea.

Only when they're pregnant, right?

You know, because that's like whatever's going on with you is only important.

It's only important when you have some when you are carrying another human being.

It's like I have a stake in the baby, but not in the woman carrying it.

So you go on along to your pap smear.

And so I want to be prepared.

So when, as Kelly right moves into this stage i can be at least educated and be a little bit more supportive than

right and and then be a be a role model for other other dudes out there because it's a lot it sounds like a lot it's a lot but you know what menopause is is that

if if men understood the things that women endure

from the moment we hit puberty

to straight through menopause, there is this

normalization of women's suffering

that we take on as well because we think we're supposed to suffer.

Well, that's what being, oh, I'm supposed to have cramps.

Oh, I'm supposed to have this.

I'm supposed to.

And so a lot of times we, because we don't know where to go and who to ask for help.

And if you think that's normal, what really disturbs me is seeing how long women have suffered and menopause is just the the last of the suffering episodes that they have had to endure and so when you get to menopause if you understood that menopause is not just about a hot flash right menopause affects every organ system in a woman's body.

So that's why a lot of the stuff, the irritability, the mood swings, the brain fog, the crying jags, depression, anxiety, it's affecting your brain.

It's not, you know, when people say, oh, it's just in your head, yeah, of course, everything is in your head.

You know, that's where everything registers, but it is having real life effects on your skin, your hair, you know, your sexuality, how you move around in the world, your confidence.

Imagine if men experienced any of that.

There would be a pill, a rub, a spray, and surgery already discovered and being implemented.

But, But, you know, the sad thing is that we do know how to treat menopause.

We do.

But unfortunately, it's like it's been a secret, you know, and this generation of women really has been left out of the conversation and thinking that they, because it's dangerous or maybe it's going to give me cancer, that hormone therapy, which is the most effective treatment.

That's that's why I will get in people's business.

Because if I see people out there and they're fanning or they got a little electric fan, I'm like, oh, go,

hey, you know, we have something for that.

Please don't just sit there because it goes on for years.

It's not like labor where you go, well, this baby's coming out of there at some point.

No, this is for years, and for some women, a decade or more of not feeling your best self when this solution is at hand for most women.

Yeah, and we don't know.

Explain to Craig and the listeners once again, what has been the rub against women using hormone replacement therapy?

Yeah, you know, hormone therapy has been around since 1942.

So it's not like we just discovered what the treatment is.

You know, it's a hormonal issue that is dealt with by giving women hormones, okay, estrogen primarily.

And we've been doing that.

But, you know, again, for women of color and for people who don't have doctors to see,

you know, again, you're least likely to have gotten that in 1955 because again you didn't know and you don't have a doctor so there's that but the big shift happened in 2002 and there was a study that came out called the women's health initiative which really put the fear of god in women because we knew it was effective for treatment for the symptoms that everybody knew But when it raised the issue that hormone therapy slightly increases the risk of breast cancer, then it was game set and match.

Women threw away their hormones.

No matter how great they built on them, they stopped taking them.

And doctors recommended that they stop.

Absolutely.

Because, and then, so imagine for 23 years, we've had the solution right at hand and no one would take it for fear of breast cancer.

And we're not, you know, and that's not true.

And it

doesn't back that up.

No, it wasn't true then.

It's not true now.

And that the benefits outweigh the risk.

But we have to undo all of that think, think, that negative thinking, because women fear breast cancer more than they fear a heart attack.

You know, because breast cancer strikes at something very, that's very personal.

I can see it.

So that's been my mission is really to try to get out there and to get women to understand, you know, suffering is a choice.

Don't choose it.

Why would you?

Yeah.

And let me just say, I don't choose it.

I

started to feel the symptoms of menopause.

It was sometime during the first term.

And it comes like you wake up one day and you're having hot flashes.

And it's like at what age?

It had to have been in my late 40s,

right?

Mid 40s.

But here's the thing.

When menopause happens is very different.

It varies from woman to woman.

It

depends on your history, your gene structure.

Some people go into menopause in their 30s.

Some people may not feel any symptoms, right?

And that's maybe confusing to husbands, right?

You know, because if it's not, because you think, well, this should be happening equally to everybody.

And

it doesn't.

So for me, I was in my late 40s, at least when I started having hot flashes, but I knew that that probably meant I was paramenopausal.

I could have been paramenopausal for 10 years before that, right?

But it just, it was like, I woke up one day and started, you know, having these bouts of severe heat and flash and sweating.

It was like, what happened today?

You know, I woke up and it was different like that.

Like, you know,

so I was like, okay, this is, you know, I knew enough to know, okay, I'm starting to have the hot flashes, right?

And I thought probably like a lot, a lot of women, let me, let me see if I could handle this.

The suffering thing.

let me see if I can get through this.

Why?

I don't know.

You know, probably I didn't think to just call the doctor right then and there.

It's started, let's go.

Um,

but I said, Well, I've got time, let me just, you know,

sit this one out.

And I, I went on a couple of trips.

I'm the first lady, right?

I've got speeches, and I'm on planes, and I'm changing clothes, I got my hair done.

It was one trip, I think I had about 40 hot flashes, and I was like, I can't live like this, I can't get off this plane soaking wet.

I can't factor in the time to change clothes and redo my hair in between a day of speeches, right?

I just, it wouldn't be a good look.

People would be like, what's wrong with her?

She must be lying.

She's sweating, you know?

And you're literally sweating.

I think there are a lot of us out here, men, who hear hot flash, but we don't know what it means.

We don't know that you're dripping.

You can drench.

If you've ever had a night sweat, have you ever had a night sweat?

No, but I've had sweating from working out.

So I know what sweating a lot is.

It is not.

It's different.

Yeah.

Sweating from working out, there's exertion that leads to your body heating up and you can feel it coming and there's a connection.

No, you are sitting here like this and from within, like a furnace is lit in you, like a hot,

hot furnace, right?

Like your organs are just

hot coals, right?

Your stomach, your liver, your heart is just boom, boom,

think of that.

Think of that.

I'm not laughing at your pain.

And it comes like that.

And it's not painful, but it's just hot, right?

And then from with inside,

it's like you burst with water.

Water just drips, dripping.

Yeah.

Your clothes are soaking wet.

You have to change your clothes.

Right.

Right.

And you know what?

That's a hot flash.

And imagine for women.

and this is happening, you know, peak career time.

Yeah.

You know, you're in your 40s, you know, you're in a board meeting or you're getting off Marine One and, you know, and all of a sudden you just break out into a sweat and you never know when it's coming.

It's totally unpredictable.

And one of the things, the other symptoms that women really find very distressing is the brain fog.

Like you're sitting there and then all of a sudden, out of your head.

you just completely lose your train of thought.

And for professional women, you can't, you know, that's a problem.

Yeah.

You know, and it undermines your confidence, you know, your ability to do your job.

So, you know, I say this, and I don't say this lightly, hot flashes are really important because not only are they just uncomfortable in the short term, but they are harbingers of other things to come.

And women who have a lot of untreated hot flashes are more likely to have disrupted sleep.

They're more likely to be hypertensive.

They're more likely to develop bad habits.

Because again, if you're not sleeping, what are you going to do the next day to compensate?

You're going to eat more.

You're going to exercise less.

All of these things independently and collectively increase your risk for cardiovascular disease.

So that's why I say when I see a woman having hot flashes, I do want her to know that, no, this isn't something to say, oh, don't worry, dear, it'll be over in 10 years or so.

By then the damage is done.

So what are your thoughts on the, on the

notion that paramenopause is underdiagnosed?

Oh, that is, you know, at least for menopause, you kind of have an idea.

Right.

Okay, it's done and I'm not having my periods anymore.

But the reason why perimenopause is so underdiagnosed is because it wasn't really recognized as a thing.

You can have all those symptoms that we were just talking about and still get in your period.

And so, and you go to, and your hormones would be normal.

If you went to the doctor and said, oh, can you check my hormones?

And hormones are normal.

And then you walk out and go, oh, we're like, yes, it's just me.

I'll have to wait.

It might be eight, nine years before your period stops.

So what are you supposed to do?

Just be miserable for eight or nine years.

No, you can treat when you're symptomatic.

And I think that, again,

We have a generation of doctors that doesn't really recognize and understand that you can treat,

when you're symptomatic right but there's not going to be one blood test that's going to confirm it for you you are in periamenopause when you are having symptoms and nobody knows that but you and then you have to communicate those to your doctor exactly exactly well that's why we have to talk about the symptoms right because a lot of women aren't even taught to be aware of what's happening with their our bodies right um a lot of women don't want to sweat period because they don't want to move move.

We're more worried about getting our hair messed up and keeping the blow dry in or not, you know, messing up perm.

That becomes more of a motivator.

So if we're not like messing your hair,

that's the important thing.

That may be a driver because if you're sweating so much, you just got to blow out and then you get a hot flash.

Well, that.

that might be a motivator for more women than worrying about being having a heart attack.

So

what can we do men as husbands to support our women

earlier later when you know whenever it's needed to help help us under help us

i i cavemen know how we can help no but i i think that having a little grace and really understanding that

what she's going through is difficult yeah you know it's it's uncomfortable it is sometimes that irritability that little extra snappiness that happens, it's because, you know, that's because it's everything is affecting your brain.

It really is.

And sometimes you have to, even when they may not recognize it themselves, sometimes you might have to say, you know, honey, you look like you're having a bad day.

You know, why don't you go sit down?

I got this, whatever it is you need to get, be it the kids, be it the dishes, whatever.

Giving them a little grace and say, if she's yelling at you or she has broken out into a rage because that's another sign that's another symptom that's probably why I was mad for a decade but paramenopausal didn't know it just rage and you you can sometimes feel yourself and say now I know I shouldn't be that mad yeah

but what men need to understand is that don't get mad at her

for being mad at you understand that she's going through something yeah oh see and now you just lost a bunch of men right there it's like what do you mean we haven't lost them.

You're about to lose them by getting on them before you give them a chance.

I was just watching your face.

Just let him.

Did you see his face when he said

he was just like, well,

would you let a brother soak in the information?

Tell me, what was the so what did you soak in?

Let me see your reaction.

This is just a typical relationship issue.

If you happen to have like a response to some information that could possibly be read in a couple different ways, it's like, Daddy lost.

Well, I'm just asking you, what was your response?

But my response was: it is, to me,

for younger men,

they won't know regular behavior from paramenopausal behavior because sometimes you all get mad at us.

Anyway, so

I'm thinking in my mind, how many people are doing that?

How many people here went, ooh, I see a lot of men go,

all the men are smiling because they're like,

he's doing it for us.

And

all I'm saying is I'm trying to help get the message out to everybody that that's a great point.

Because sometimes folks get mad at you because they're mad at you and you did something and they're mad at you.

But sometimes folks get mad at you because they're going through something.

And we have to get better at being able to discern that or at least saying, Are you mad at me?

Are you not feeling well?

Or something like that.

You got to put it into some communicative way, like you say, to give them more grace.

It's just not something that you learn on in the locker room or on the bench.

You don't learn it.

And you will not.

Right.

Find it there.

You come to IMO to get some, to get some grace yourself.

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Well, you know, I'm going to give you a little easy way to think about it.

Okay.

If you come in and, you know, and your wife is like on you and you, whatever.

And mind you, we are not talking about Kelly because

she might be going through something, but I'm not aware of it.

No, let me say this.

I think the first question that comes in your mind when someone and they'll be like, on you like that, the first question you need to ask is,

what did I do?

Ask yourself, sometimes you did something.

Now, you know what I mean?

Sometimes you did something.

You know that we as men know when we have done something.

But when you can honestly say, I didn't do anything, I didn't do anything, then you have to at least put that in

the differential of saying, perhaps this is something she's having a bad day.

But go further than that.

Don't just give her some grace and go let her lay down and take a nap.

Say, honey, maybe you need to see somebody.

You know, go see your doctor because this seems a little out of character.

How about let's go.

Yeah.

That's even better.

Yeah.

That's even better.

That's even better.

That's better.

But to let, to make her know that, again,

we have options, we have treatment, and you don't have to sit there and just endure it.

And it will make everybody's life better.

Your life better, children's life better, her life better.

You know, and here's something that I think the most surprising statistic for me was that two-thirds of all people in this country with Alzheimer's are women.

Two-thirds.

And it's not because we live longer.

So that's not it.

But it is clearly

something about how women's brains are affected.

And

it starts happening at menopause.

And again, you say, Well, no one ever said, Hmm, wonder why that is.

We are just now getting to the point where we're starting to ask that question.

And I think, for if there's anything that

I want, you know, our listeners and viewers to know is that for what we do know right now is that for women who have an early menopause, which means menopause before age 45,

or a premature menopause, which means you're menopausal before age 40, those women are more likely to develop Alzheimer's.

So you got to say, well, hmm.

And so the current recommendation is that if you have an early or premature menopause, those women not can, but should

take estrogen therapy and hormone and progestin therapy to protect their brains.

And we got to do a little bit better job about asking and

answering some of the questions about it.

Something I always ask you, Sharon, just because this is a me question, we've talked about this.

How long do you stay on hormone replacement therapy?

Because I use hormone replacement therapy, and there's still a, you know, because there is still the thought that, well, you shouldn't do it for more than 10 years.

There are a lot of women that hear that and they're trying to wean themselves off of it.

Right.

Or you're trying to start late because you're like, I don't want to use up my time.

Right.

No, not true.

You know, the American College of Obstetricians and gynecologists, the Medical Society, we all agree current guidelines are that you, unless you develop a contraindication to taking hormone therapies, you can take them forever.

You know, there is no set time at which you say that expires.

And particularly when it comes to osteoporosis, hormone therapy.

prevents osteoporosis.

But if you stop your hormone therapy, guess what happens?

You start to lose your bone density again.

And within five years of stopping, you'll be right where you would have been had you not taken it at all

so no there is no reason there is no time limit and i think it's like a statin right um which we take all the time but we you know people are on cholesterol uh

uh medicine they're on blood pressure medication right they you know if you have if you develop one of the contra one of the four contraindications then maybe what are those contraindications breast cancer uterine cancer

if you have an active like if you develop a pulmonary embolus

or you have vaginal bleeding that's undiagnosed, that's about it.

And even some of those are sort of fungible.

It depends.

But

I forgot, what was I saying?

What was I talking about?

See,

I know.

And I can't help you because my brain fogged absolutely.

You were talking about.

I know I need

therapy.

You got to do that.

Greg, we're counting on you.

I know.

okay i was saying on both ends on both ends so there's no time limit for how long you can take

but here's the other part that i want women to understand

you don't get any extra bonus points for saying oh i haven't suffered enough wait i'll wait until they get real bad no you start when you are symptomatic and you don't have to wait until you've not had a period for 12 months you don't have to wait until you know your brain fog is so bad you can't find your way home.

None of that.

You can start when you say, I am symptomatic and this is bothering me.

This is affecting the quality of my life.

It doesn't,

you actually do more harm by waiting

than by starting because you get more benefit the earlier you start.

Well, this would be a good time for our question because the question is very pertinent and it comes from CAS in Australia.

What tips might you have about navigating transitions in life, in particular menopause, as it's a whole new ball game impacting on every part of life, psychological, emotional, physical, and spiritual?

I'm mostly interested in managing the roller coaster of emotions and sense of self, and I'm keen to hear from a woman's and a man's perspective.

Well, I think you know what, I think you know what my perspective is, and that is if you are having that many symptoms, then, you know, again, see your doctor and say, am I a candidate?

Yes or no?

And if they tell you no for no good reason, then you need to find another doctor or find someplace where you can get the relief that you need because it is.

Menopause is a total body experience.

And, you know, I think that I would be remiss if I didn't say that the cornerstone.

of healthy living and healthy aging and longevity, all of it has to do with living a healthy lifestyle.

So, you know, you exercise, eat right, have community, get a good night's sleep, cut down on alcohol.

That's whether we're talking about menopause or something.

I got to cut down on alcohol.

Now, how high on the list does that have to be?

Well, you know what?

You got

for all the ones that are concerned.

Because when you got brain fog, sometimes you just need a glass of wine to make it

just clear it up.

You know what?

Poof, I can see again.

You know what?

Sometimes you only hit four out of five of those things.

So, you know what I mean?

You just gotta say,

well, I did get a good night's sleep.

So, you know, as I said, there's got to be some joy in the world.

And we can't let that pendulum swing so far in the other direction.

But I think, you know, in moderation, right?

But when you've done all those things and you're saying, okay, I'm still feeling all of this tumult in my life,

then let me say this, and I'll say it loud for everybody to hear.

There is nothing that is more effective for the treatment.

menopausal symptoms than hormone therapy.

Nothing.

Some people might try one thing, work here, but that's the number one.

I want to tell Taz, was that her?

Taz.

Taz.

You know, first of all, I want women, us to embrace transition, you know, because I think that that's still something we struggle with.

You know, the broader question was: how do you manage?

transition, menopause being among that at this stage in life.

You know, sometimes we view transition as something negative.

It's like we are always evolving.

And that's a good thing.

If we're alive enough to have transition, then we're blessed, but we shouldn't be ashamed of it, you know?

And I've, I've tried, I'm trying, continuously trying, because it's a thing you never stop working on as a woman, as a person, is to try to figure out all that good and not get all sucked into what I didn't get, what I didn't have, what I don't, didn't do, because there's so, there's still time ahead.

So embrace the transition.

That's, that's terrific.

Embrace the transition and then see your doctor, live a healthy lifestyle.

But the most important thing is get the hormonal treatment.

Yeah.

You know, you know, one thing I want to say, Craig, before we leave this, before we leave Kaz is that

I also think that, you know, the two of us here at this table, we're Michelle now is, you know, 60, I'm considerably over 60, but it gives you the role models for what your life could be.

You just have to be well enough and healthy enough to be able to take advantage of it.

Because I think this is a great time.

It's different, but it's really the first time that we get to do what we want to do.

You know, you're kind of relieved from a lot of those day-to-day responsibilities.

And so I want young women and people who are going through this transition, don't dread what's on the other side, because we're good.

We are so good.

The best time of my entire life is right now.

It really is.

And that is not made up.

I do not wish to be 20 again.

Not in any way, shape, or form, but I enjoyed my 20s.

I think young people should enjoy every decade and not bemoan it because there's learning in all of it.

but there is some real freedom

about this time in life.

And you just want people to be healthy enough to enjoy it.

And I'm thinking about my 70s.

I'm thinking about my 80s because I, if I want to still be able to do some of this stuff in my 80s.

Yeah, it is a journey and it can start by reading grown woman talk

and listening to the second opinion.

So what would you do differently, Craig?

Or what are you going to do differently as a man after hearing this conversation?

You know, I think it's going to start for me where I am going to start attending appointments with my wife when she goes in for appointments, just because

if she needs some,

if she's going to be foggy, she's going to need somebody to some backup in there to hear what's going on.

I'm not the best at that because I don't even do it at my own appointments, but there's two, two heads are better than one.

That's how I would start.

Number one.

Number two is

I'm going to do a little bit

more

communicating as I see these symptoms coming along.

Because right now, we're still got young kids.

We're busy.

It's easy for me to

overlook any kind of behavioral changes because we're running around.

It's easy for her to overlook it.

And it might even be easy for her to overlook it too.

So, those are the first two.

And then the third thing is: this whole hormonal therapy thing is brand new

for me.

So, this is, as always, it's just a treat and

so helpful, so resourceful, and is absolutely the reason why you're kicking off your new show because we need more of this.

And you have such a way about you that as a, as, I mean, this could have been an uncomfortable discussion for a guy, it absolutely was not, it was the opposite.

I felt safe and informed and educated.

Did you feel safe?

Let's hold his hand.

You see, he felt so safe.

You were safe, Jesus.

I am trying to be not.

I love you.

Your bedside manner is the best.

Here.

The best.

You see what I got to put up with.

I know you know her now, so you see.

But I like that where I'm teasing you.

But, you know, but men do need to feel safe to, you know, be invited into these conversations and to, you know,

and not feel

ignorant or attacked or, you know, and it's probably better not to have some of these conversations with your own spouse because you might get some of that 1990 backlash, right?

Yes.

You might

knowing

you might get something broken.

You just made me think about the 90s.

The 90s.

Oh, you think I'm angry today?

You remember how mad I was in 1990?

Well, I am so excited that you are kicking off your podcast.

It has been a long time coming.

I am your biggest fan.

And not just because you are my dear, dear friend, but as the listeners can see, she's one of the smartest women that I know.

And she gives it to you straight with a little chaser.

Everyone, please tune in to the second opinion, like and subscribe.

Get it done.

It's coming out soon everywhere you get your podcast.

Thank you, Sharon.

Thank you, Dr.

Melena.

Always appreciate it.

Pleasure to have you.

Hey there, it's Michelle and Craig.

On our IMO podcast, we've brought in some incredible guests to answer your burning questions and share our opinions about the things that matter to all of us.

Like what success looks like in different families with Glenn and Doyle, why we all need to learn how to say no with Taraji P.

Henson, and how failure can actually make you better in your career with our friend Kiki Palmer.

We hope you'll all listen in every week.

And did you know that you can hear the show on Amazon Music?

Just open the Amazon Music app and search for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson today.