Live On Your Edge with Dr. Orna Guralnik

What are you thinking about?

Yeah.

A penny for your thoughts.

Like, what are you thinking about?

And then, do they, do you really go there?

And then, do you really say?

Because how many times do somebody asks, what are you thinking about?

And you're like, well, let me make up a thing because I don't want to actually

say what I was thinking about right now.

Which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

That's why I got to change it.

Which could be, would that be an edge?

That would be an edge.

And that would be really interesting.

You could like open something up up and try to do it.

Why would

you chew annoying me so much?

Let's discuss.

Right.

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Progressive Insurance.

Well, hi there.

How are you?

I'm terrific.

How are you?

I like you blue.

Yeah, I'll wear blue more.

You're looking good.

I feel good.

I feel good.

Yeah, that's good.

So today's show is going to be a nightmare.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, one of my favorite topics and one of my favorite people.

Yes.

You know, talking about marriage, the challenges of marriage and all that good stuff.

Yeah.

You know,

one question is now that, you know, I'm on my second marriage, people ask me, do we talk about our relationships?

Yeah.

And I tell people all the time, now we do.

Yeah, no,

I mean, when you were on your first marriage,

we were very close.

We were close with you and your first wife.

We lived down the street from one another.

Socialized.

Did a whole lot together.

But then, you know, it was sort of a surprise when it was,

when it ended.

Yes.

And it was a surprise.

And let me help the audience understand why it was a surprise because.

I was always of the mindset that it was going to work out.

We were going to figure it out.

We go to counseling.

We'd do this.

We'd do all these things and things would work out.

And that if they worked out and you guys knew all the things that were going on, I will have forgiven her.

And then you all would still be mad because I know how you and mom and mom are.

But the thing is, now, because all those years that you guys were struggling and dealing with stuff,

I'd check in with both of you.

How's it going?

You'd be great.

We're fine.

And after that, I was like, don't, you're fine means nothing to me.

It does, it didn't.

Yeah, so now it's like, so I guess that's the long way of saying, no, we actually didn't really fully talk about our marriages.

Given all the stuff that we talked about too, and continue to talk about, we never talked about our marriages.

And, and, and by me not wanting to talk about mine made me not ask you about yours because then you'd ask me about mine and then I'd have to tell you what's going on.

So and it wasn't good.

And it wasn't good.

It wasn't good.

And so it made me think about mom and dad.

Right.

And

I tell people all the time, I remember mom and dad having one argument in front of us.

One argument.

And I don't know what it was about, but I do remember that dad, and that we can laugh at this now.

You know, for those of you out there who didn't know, my dad was...

was disabled and he had crutches and he got mad at my mom and he tried to to act like he was going to get up and leave and this would have been like one of those like a 20-minute thing for him you can't just walk out when you got crutches and so he's getting his cat put his cap on and he's you hear these crutches crumbling around

clanging around and he and my mom was like Frasier I cannot believe are you getting ready to leave you're just gonna leave in the middle of an argument and

I was standing there with my mouth open.

Do you remember that?

I do.

And I remember going, Dad, we wouldn't let him leave.

I mean, I think I was hanging on a leg.

We were going to make it really hard for him to walk out the door because it was sort of like, really?

You're walking out the door?

I don't, because you're right.

We didn't know what the argument was about.

But

yeah, he was, he called himself, I'm just going to take a walk around the block.

We're like, no, we've got you trapped in here.

Yeah, we were little.

Yeah, now that you bring it up, that is how traumatic that was.

Yeah.

Because it was the one and only time that they had a fight.

So I don't remember them even talking about their relationship with each other.

Yeah, I think mom probably shared more with me as I got older.

Because I, you know, I do remember because as I started get

as I became a married woman and I talked to mom, I shared some of the frustrations and some of the ups and downs.

And, you know, one thing she divulged to me was she said that for a period when we were in school and she was at home because she was a housewife until I went to high school.

She said every spring she would wake up.

There'd be a day she'd wake up and think about leaving dad.

I was like, what?

How come I didn't?

She never told you that.

No, of course not.

I would have been.

But she used it as an example of like, you know,

Well, what she would say is like,

you think you have problems, you know, you think you can't deal with it.

But if you leave this one, you're just going to go out in the world and find somebody else and you, you'll have to deal with their issues.

Because her point was everybody has issues.

So when she told you this, were you already married?

Yes.

Yes.

I was older.

She didn't tell me this when I was eight.

That would have probably

been.

I was thinking maybe while I was in college and you know, no, no, no, no.

This was after I got married.

This was during our conversations.

You know, I'd get into the, how do you put up with men?

And let me tell you what Barack did.

And, you know, and she'd always say, you know,

no one's perfect.

You know, everybody brings their baggage to the table.

And she used that example.

She said, every year, it was almost like

she had to renew her faith in her marriage.

And springtime was that time.

It was probably, as I think about it, it's like you're sort of trapped in the winter, the dark, long winter of Chicago where nobody's going anywhere because it's just too cold.

And then it starts to warm up.

And, you know, she always had that spring cleaning ritual too.

Right.

She would have gotten the house ready for the new season.

And it was probably her ritual of kind of shedding all the stuff from the winter, including thoughts of her husband.

Cleaning him out.

Cleaning him out.

But I think she replaced leaving with cleaning.

And she said, once she just sort of thought it through, she was like, well, we're, you know, do I really want to leave or do I, or am I looking for something else?

Yeah.

And that, I found that to be a helpful disclosure.

And I think that's an example of the way I think mom and dad

tried to talk to us as openly and honestly about what life was, including marriage.

So I think that helped me not walk into my marriage with completely unrealistic expectations that this man that I was going to marry was going to be my all and everything forever and ever.

Amen.

That's just not, you know, the way it works.

And I, I, I'm grateful to mom for being honest.

And that's one of the reasons why I try to be honest with the world, with the people who follow me and Barack to our girls, because,

you know,

people look at our marriage as the ideal, you know, because in an Instagram world,

you know, you see two loving people doing a hard thing in the world, you know, always on stage, giving each other a hug after a big speech.

And making it look easy.

And making it look easy.

Right.

Right.

And it's not.

And a lot of young people could look at that and go, I want a marriage like Michelle and Barack.

Right.

And it's like, well, let me, you know, let me talk about what marriage is, you know, because it's even when it looks good, even when it's great, it's hard.

Yeah.

And so I think it's important because, you know, it's very easy to quit on a marriage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which, you know, I'm thinking back now and I probably

wouldn't have ever gone to a marriage counselor if I hadn't had trouble in my marriage.

Did you guys go to counseling?

In your first marriage?

Oh, yeah.

See, I didn't even know that.

I know.

I know.

Oh, my God.

Because I'm not iconic and on on social media, you don't, everybody doesn't know my business.

But after all this time, I never knew that you guys actually.

But we tried some counseling and counseling only works as well as the people who are giving out the information.

Well, I shouldn't say that.

We'll have Dr.

Orna come on and tell us the real scoop.

But, you know, the way I looked at it is.

I'm going to be completely open.

You be completely open.

And maybe we can work on that.

But I didn't even know that there was an industry of of therapy therapy counseling yeah yeah that wasn't anything that our parents generation no way i don't think i knew a single person who went to individual let alone couples counseling and the closest thing was you know the counselor at school for the kids who had mental issues.

You know, you only, you only thought about therapy if you had some kind of mental issue, especially in the black community, right?

You, people either went to their pastor pastor or they went to the barbershop and talked to the rest of the fellas.

And that was the

extent of dad giving me some advice, right?

We'd go to the barbershop and listen to stuff, and then we'd talk about it in the car.

And then, as I got older and in college, and I would talk about girls, he was still of the mindset: don't settle down,

make sure you wear protection,

and add a boy.

Yeah.

You know,

Did he ever give you, did dad ever give you any advice when you first got married?

So remember, dad had died.

But

he knew Janice and he knew Janice.

But it was before we were having issues.

So at that point, the advice went from the sort of add a boy, protect yourself to there's a lot of temptations out here and you can possibly feel like you're getting bored in your relationship.

Don't.

Yeah, right.

Don't do that.

Don't do that.

That's

the deep

advice that you get, the therapy that was supposed to carry you through.

Yeah, but you know, you know, dad had his way of talking about things and using humor and using the example of his friends and family who made bad decisions.

Yeah.

Well, there, you know, there were wonderful examples of what not to do.

But there weren't a lot of,

there weren't a lot of really guiding principles

of what to do.

And speaking of that, let's have our expert come in.

Well, yeah, I guess

we should get some real help.

Now, this is an introduction that I have to read because

this is.

powerful here.

Dr.

Orna Geralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst.

She is on the faculty of NYU postdoctoral program in psychoanalysis and writes and teaches on the intersection of politics, dissociation, and psychoanalysis.

She is on the editorial board of psychoanalytic dialogues and studies in gender and sexuality.

That's a mouthful right there.

But you did it.

She is the therapist on the Showtime documentary series Couples Therapy.

One of my favorite shows.

One of my sister's favorite shows, now one of Kelly and I's favorite shows because this was one of this is one of those shows that we just didn't watch because we still have kids at home and but we went back and watched excellent and now we are fans as well dr orna would you come join us please and we have nico here

too

how are you it's so good to have you here thank you it's so

nico welcome welcome nico

i've been listening to your conversation.

It's like, let's get a pro here.

No one's hugging me.

I know, Nico.

It's like,

now we're getting to work, what you're used to.

Well, welcome.

She did keep coming over when something intense was coming up.

Can she feel it?

She feels it.

Yeah.

Wow.

Really?

Yeah.

See, I was paying attention to my sister.

I didn't even notice.

Yeah, she kept coming over when she was paying attention, you know.

It's like doing her job.

She's doing her job.

Well, welcome.

Welcome to our table, our conversation.

My big brother and one of my favorite people in the world.

I admire this woman deeply.

I really do.

I love the work that you do and the way that you do it.

But

welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I have so many questions.

Let's go.

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What are some of the firsts that we were able to accomplish in our family?

What were some of our firsts?

Well, I was probably the first first lady in our family.

You were the first person to get drafted by the NBA.

Yes, I sure was.

And the first to actually play professionally overseas.

Right.

We were the first in our family to graduate from Ivy League schools.

You were the first person in our family to live abroad.

Oh, that's a good one.

That's a good one.

We are the first people in our family to have our own amazing brother-sister podcast.

Yes.

And that has been an amazing first.

That's been a really fun first.

That's been a really fun first.

And it feels like it's a first that the whole family can celebrate because you know uh everyone is giving us ideas and

opinions yes and uh it has been really fun spending time hanging out together and you know we it feels like we haven't been together in a long time and we've just been apart for about a couple of months which was no time that was nothing in the past fun the thing about um being the first is that sometimes it can be a little scary like starting this podcast, even though we're having a lot of fun, now we've never done this before.

And there was a little trepidation about how they're going to work.

Are people going to enjoy it?

Are we going to have enough to say week after week?

Can we get guests?

Can we get guests?

Will anybody come and talk to us?

So

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So I just, I'm trying to, I mean, first of all, I told my sister this when we started watching it, finding people to come on the show

and be so open in front of cameras, I don't know if I could do that.

Can you talk about that?

Sure, yeah.

You know, when we started doing the show, we all had a question of whether this could

do this, whether you could really do therapy on camera.

You know, the basic idea of therapy is typically like full confidentiality.

Like I never talk about my patients with anyone.

It's like, it's a very different way of framing therapy.

Right.

So

it was kind of a wild jump to try to do this.

But, you know, over time, what I realized is that,

you know, in a way, when people come and talk to a therapist, they're always talking to more than just the therapist.

They're talking to some kind of internal audience that they have, like a family member that never listened to them,

or the world, like, wait a minute, there's something that didn't happen right in my life, and I need the world to know this, and I need, I need to tell my story.

So, when they talk to a therapist, in a way, they're always talking to a certain kind of hidden camera, anyhow.

It's not that different.

wow you know they're trying to tell their story and get it right um

what

led you to couples therapy i mean what's the advantage of working with a couple versus working with an individual or is there an advantage yeah um

well first of all when people are in therapy they most of what they talk about is their relationships right and what you want to do in individual therapy is you want to get into like the very personal story how a person sees their world, how they see the relationship.

But you're always missing the other side, right?

You're always missing, well,

what's another perspective on this?

People only know what they know about themselves, and that's all they can share.

Exactly.

So I'm often curious: like, if I had the spouse in the room, what would they say?

And if I had the mother in the room, what would she say?

And that's what got me kind of interested in couples' work.

So

I actually recruited the person who's my advisor on the show, Virginia.

Oh, yes.

Years ago, I hired her and I said, teach me the art of couples therapy.

Wow.

Wow.

And

just tried it out.

And it was amazing.

It was just a really powerful way of working.

Yeah.

I think you've done.

taken huge steps to expose people to what therapy is and to demystify it.

And,

you know, I think that

the way it's done, the quality

of the production and the way you approach the work, because we've had, Barack and I, we've done, I've done individual therapy, we've done couples therapy.

There's just a way to, as I was saying in our earlier conversation, to

bring our marriage

down to reality for people.

Yeah.

You know, and to let people know that even in the best marriages, getting help, having periods where you need support, you need to think things through is a normal part of making it through.

And it's such an amazing thing that you're doing by

actually speaking about it.

I was listening to your conversation earlier and like

just breaking through all these like fantasies and illusions that people have about marriage and about relationships, trying to get like real and

open people up both to their own

inhibitions and struggles and then to be able to talk about it with each other.

I mean, it's like, it's incredible what you're doing.

Yeah.

And from the place that you are.

Yeah.

It can be a little scary because you don't want to jinx your own relationship.

Yeah.

Or you don't want to, you know, feel like because you say a little bit that you have to say everything.

Right.

But I do think that we don't talk enough with young people about what marriage is, what building real relationships are.

We spend way more time on the wedding

and the dress picking and the, you know, the

wishboard and the all of that.

And I see that even now, even as therapy has become more of the norm in our society, I see too many young people who haven't really thought through their why.

Yeah.

They haven't asked real questions.

They're so busy rushing.

to the ceremony.

Yeah.

And that's all we focus on is the day.

and then they're not prepared for the next year or the next 50 years um and that's one of the reasons why i i like talking open openly yeah because i think young people give up they give up too soon yeah and and dr orna why do you think that is is it is it uh because we didn't have modeling with our parents or is there a fear of actually finding out what your partner thinks of you.

Oh, there are many reasons why people don't talk about what's going on.

There's so many fears of addressing.

I mean, people love staying at the surface of things.

They're afraid of themselves, of what they're going to find out in themselves.

They're afraid of what their partner might say to them.

They're afraid of the world, what the world will think.

There are many ways that people just hide all the time from like their most personal truth and the other person's truth.

And the way people are raised.

And then we have the extra layer now of social media and like all the dysmification that happens around that, that people don't know how to make contact with their true self.

And we're not even trying.

That's not like a personal goal.

We don't, we're not, we're not raising, we're not raised or we're not raising our children to to do that work yeah to even understand that that work is a part of being human.

Being human.

But I think that's why the show worked so well.

And we were surprised by how successful it was.

But I think that's what people really need.

And they know it when they feel it.

Like when people come into therapy and they can suddenly, like, oh, I'm allowed to think about this.

I'm allowed to talk about this.

Yeah.

I can talk to my partner about this.

It's such a relief.

It's such a, oh, this is what life is.

Instead of this like

defensive way that I've been living.

Yeah.

People know it.

When they, when they get it, they know they need it.

So

well, we

typically have a question from a caller or a viewer.

And I think now is a great time to get our question in and answer our questions.

So Natalie.

You got it.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

I'm Rachel.

I'm 40 years old and a mom of three.

Lately, I've been feeling fairly bored in my marriage.

It's like every day is kind of a repeat of the last.

We wake up, do school drop-off, work, run errands, and then it's the same weekend routine.

Even if my husband and I managed to carve out time for a rare date night, it still feels like we're just going through the motions.

Last week, for example, we went out to dinner, but it turned into a quick meal where we talked mostly about the kids and then listened to each other's work complaints.

It feels like we're roommates, not romantic partners.

Meanwhile, I find myself getting increasingly jealous of this close friend of mine who has two kids and whose relationship seems pretty vibrant and fulfilling.

She often shares stories about how attentive her husband is, and I don't mean just emotionally.

I know I shouldn't, but I can't help comparing our lives and I'm realizing it's starting to make me unhappy.

I do love my husband and I feel lucky for the life we've built together, but I am craving more depth and excitement in our relationship.

I'm willing to put in the work.

I just don't know exactly where to start or how to talk with him without him becoming defensive or scaring him.

Do we book a big vacation together?

Do we try and write romantic notes to each other?

I know that sounds silly, but I'm open.

What's the secret to kickstarting a romance with a husband of 14 years, Rachel?

I think that's a great question.

It really is.

It really is.

And there's so many different parts.

So yeah as the only husband at the table

what do you say yeah really

i want to help rachel be able to talk productively to her husband about her issues

how to how how can we help rachel talk a little bit more productively about this to the person that she should be feeling like she has her closest relationship with yeah oh my god there's so much in this question yeah yeah so much first of all i have to say that the

question of boredom.

Boredom, in my mind, is, I mean, when patients talk to me about boredom, to me, it's like a big symptom of, first of all, a disconnect, a disconnect from some kind of deeper, more real layer of things.

It's not, I mean,

there's nothing to be bored about ever in life.

Especially if you have a two and a three year old or however old Rachel's kids were.

I mean, just think about like when you go to sleep at night and what our mind creates every night in terms of dreams,

we are full of interesting, interesting experiences all the time.

I mean, look outside at the, at nature.

I mean, you can just stare at a flower and it's like, the world is fascinating.

But we're not, we, we don't think like that,

especially in this day and age.

I mean, right.

That's the first word out of a kid's mouth is, I'm bored.

And just the way you put it, it's like, how could, how can

be bored yeah there's nothing to be bored of i mean

if you just i mean if you're a mother and you're watching your children every moment that you look at them it's like unbelievable what's happening yes and what's happening inside of you when you're with your children all the different emotions the fears the the memories that it brings up for you i mean there's nothing to be bored about ever

so if you're bored something is disconnected so that's already something for me as a therapist to think about work with.

And is it something within Rachel?

To

you?

Okay.

So I start with what's going on with each person.

Like, what are you disconnected from in yourself that, first of all, you're looking to your husband to fulfill before checking in with yourself.

If you're bored and you're looking at your husband, that's already

not exactly the right direction to be looking at.

There's nothing to be bored.

Let's start from that.

If you're bored, something is disconnected.

So

we can deal with that aspect of things.

Like, what are you, what's happening inside you that you're bored with?

That you're,

are you not giving yourself enough time to have an inner life?

Are you running, running, running?

And I mean, having three kids and she's 40.

So the kids are young.

I mean, it's going to be, this is a phase of life where this is not like fun and games.

I mean, this is intense.

Like you're at the level of, like, are you getting any sleep?

Is there money around?

Like, are you, you're at the level of the body?

It's, it's very hard to carve out space to have an inner life during that period.

So what are you expecting?

I mean, this is a period where you're giving out a lot.

How are you dealing with that?

Yeah.

Are you giving yourself the space to really have an experience?

When you're with your kid, do you have the moment moment to actually notice the wonder that's in front of you the wonder that's inside of you like can you take 10 minutes in the morning before everyone wakes up and just sit with yourself jot down a few thoughts a few feelings even meditate for a few minutes just create an inner space so that you can notice the wonder around you and inside you not only the wonder the intense anxieties, everything.

Like have an inner life before you're turning to your marriage and your husband to kind of supply you with something.

And don't mothers in particular feel guilty about doing

everything, let alone taking the time out to focus on an inner life?

How do you even help,

especially

a new mother dealing with all kinds of guilt, to even think differently

about that investment in self.

Yeah, there's been quite a lot of recent more feminist literature that's trying to help women think through that, think through the intense experiences a woman is going through as a mother and a young mother.

There's so much there.

And there's so much, I mean, talking earlier about like all these like Disney ideas,

so many ways in which mothers are prevented from really noticing what they're going through because you're supposed to be this, that, and the other.

You're supposed to be perfect in this way and perfect in that way.

And anyway, all these different ways contradict each other.

So there's no way to be perfect.

And then you've got your mother over your shoulder.

So

there's a lot out there now in terms of feminist writing that helps women think through their experience and honor the complexity of their experience as mothers.

All of this is like inner work before you even turn to your marriage.

But then let's talk about the marriage.

The marriage.

Similar to like the way way you can't, you know, you can't show up for your kid and say, okay, I have 10 minutes now.

I'm going to be a perfect mother now for 10 minutes.

Are you ready for me?

Yeah.

And the kid's like, who are you?

Yeah.

Right.

So similarly for a marriage, I mean, you have to connect.

between two people.

The connection between two people requires a certain amount of

attention or space, a certain kind of space.

you can't just show up for dinner and just like, okay, we have an hour.

Let's have a really meaningful experience and then we're back home.

So, what does that mean?

First of all, how do people spend their time?

I mean, it's really interesting when you do like a detailed analysis.

I do it with myself every day and fail, but when you do a detailed analysis of how you're spending your time, a lot of it is spent on basically crap, right?

For me, like my vice is the news but for other people it might be i don't know doom scrolling through instagram or real housewives shopping bad tv

um ocd like cleaning cleaning just to empty your mind oh and our endless phones endless phones so how are you spending your time are you are you

arranging your life in a way that meaning can emerge or are you basically cutting yourself off from anything that could be be meaningful?

And I mean, that's the

problem we're all stuck in nowadays, especially with these like phones.

And then between, so the couple needs to understand how they're spending their time.

How are they creating conditions where they can have an experience with each other?

And by experience, because that sounds like, that could sound overwhelming, because you say experience, and does that mean we have to go skydiving?

And does it have to look a certain way?

Because, again, in the ideal world, you're walking hand in hand through some magical date, you know, like date nights become a thing, right?

So, the experience feels like it needs to be big, and especially as women, we think that attention has to look like flowers and Prince Charming coming in.

But, what

counts as an experience?

This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully.

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What counts as an experience is when each of you is willing to

come a little bit to your edge to the thing that matters to you really and speak from there.

Listen to each other from there.

Because

I'll say that again.

That was deep.

All right.

It's for each of you to bring yourself to the edge of your experience, to the thing that really matters to you, the place where you tremble a little bit, where you're a little not sure about what your mind is going to bring, how you feel about things.

The thing that really matters to you,

the place where you tremble.

Yeah.

And to be able to be there with each other.

And ask your partner, like, it could be about anything.

Like, you could talk about, I don't know i mean i i think she talked about like

the the boredom of talking about work every day right you could talk to someone about or talk about the kids but everything you talk about you can get to your edge and to that thing that really again made you tremble

like and speak from there and listen from there ask your partner like okay so that thing happened with your boss But what did you really think?

Or what were you really feeling in that moment?

And what fears and hopes did it bring up for you in that moment and what did it remind you of from when you were I don't know 12 what did your dad do in that situation there's so many places you can go

everything I mean Barack and I are even we're we're in these conversations about

what what are the experiences that we have with

each other yeah you know that that build connection between us right because we are very different people with very different habits very different needs.

And

we're constantly throughout our marriage trying to bridge that gap.

So, this is fascinating to me.

But a lot of people talk in terms of love language because all of this experience being at the edge, sharing this stuff, that sounds like, well, your love language is talk, you know?

And if talk isn't his love language, like he doesn't want to go to the edge of anything, you know, because he just wants you to hold him.

That's the experience he wants.

Or he wants you to just leave him alone.

That's the experience he wants with his wife.

His love language is solitude.

Right.

Well,

that's interesting too.

That could be interesting, too.

You can ask plenty about that.

But, but you know what?

It's true that I rely a lot on language,

but you can be at the edge with another person without words.

How?

It's being present.

It's feeling each other.

There's so many ways that people communicate

that they send.

I mean, so much of what transpires between people is actually beyond language.

I mean, you know, we're sitting here together.

There's body language.

There's facial expression.

There's the smell and sound of things.

There's, I mean, that's why Zoom, for example, is so reduced in terms of like a therapy encounter.

There are many ways that we can be on the edge of things with each other that are not only in words.

It helps when there's a connection between the experience of the body and the words,

when it all kind of works together.

But you can listen to music together and like have like a really intense experience with no words.

You can, I don't know, watch an amazing movie together and you're having a profound experience.

It's not only words.

It's about bringing yourself to a place of vulnerability where you don't know, you don't know what your partner is going to say, what they're going to do, and you don't know what's going to come out from within you.

And you're touching each other in one way or another by being on that edge.

So, of course, it could be physically, sexually.

There's many ways.

Why are we so scared of that?

Scary.

Is it just straight up scary?

It is scary.

Yeah.

It is.

I mean, when two people are

in the presence of each other in some naked form,

I don't only mean naked body, but naked mentally, it is scary.

Yeah.

There's a lot of risk, a lot of vulnerability.

And

I'll jump in here.

You know, from the time

young men are developing,

we have been the ones who had to ask girls to dance.

And you know what we're afraid of?

Rejection.

Yes.

And so then you just...

Keep adding that on until you get to be 60 years old and you're still afraid of of rejection.

Because I'm listening to you, Dr.

Ornett, and it's just fantastic.

And Kelly and I, my wife, we still have young kids.

So we have a 14-year-old and a 12-year-old.

But we don't just talk about the kids.

We talk about a lot of different things.

And now I'm trying to see how can I get my, when am I on the edge?

And yeah, maybe you're not on the edge.

And it's not superficial because I've never, I don't feel like, oh, I'm too scared to bring up anything.

You know, I'm not scared to bring up anything.

Although you said you started by talking about rejection.

Right.

So

I'm trying to see how I'm going to break him down.

Breaking down.

From being rejected.

Stay out of this.

From being rejected.

Am I not getting to

the meat of the matter?

You can, I promise you, you can always push yourself for a.

That's what I'm hearing.

It's, you know, you're, you're like an athlete.

You can always go and do more.

And maybe we're just right at the surface here.

Because the the thing about, because you're still in kid mode, Barack and I are empty nesters, right?

So the funny thing is, it's like we, now we don't have the kids.

I mean, we always have the kids to talk about, right?

But not on a day-to-day basis.

They live in other,

another state, another city.

They're living their lives.

And we've noticed how much of our time we've spent talking about them, right?

Yeah.

So now that we're empty nesters, it's like, well, what are we going to talk about so we're together all day and we we do this thing where it's like i'll see him and it's like what you been doing it's like up don't tell me until dinner because we're we got to have something to talk about at dinner so if all throughout the course of the day i'm getting caught up on his stuff

then it's like we're sitting staring at each other uh are we always missing something

first of all that's not true

yeah yeah that's not true it's not true you're wrong I'm just getting her back for button in my discussion.

No, there's...

First of all, there's,

I mean, this is a little radical what I'm saying, but there's a way to be next to another person, even in silence, that can be very alive,

right?

Like, you know, people sit and meditate next to each other.

There's a way that you could be together that is very alive.

To me, it's a question of like, again, are you sitting there in a place that you know what what matters to you in that moment?

And are you curious about your partner's edge or where they're at?

Like,

what are you thinking about?

Yeah.

I penny for your thought.

Like, what are you thinking about?

And then do you really go there?

And then do you really say?

Because how many times do somebody asks, what are you thinking about?

And you're like, well, let me make up a thing because I don't want to actually

say what I was thinking about.

Which was like, the way you're chewing makes me want to smack you upside the head.

That's why I got to change it.

Which could be, which that'd be an edge.

That would be an edge.

And that would be really interesting.

You could like open something up there and why

you're chewing annoy me so much.

Right.

Let's discuss.

Right.

Yeah.

I don't know if I'd bring that up, but that's an edge.

That's an example of an edge.

That's an example of an edge.

And it actually, symbolically, it's a great example because

chewing is hearing another person chewing is you're hearing hearing the essence of who they are,

their otherness, their bodily functions.

It is like that.

It's like chewing.

It's not like that at all.

No, no.

Because the girls and I...

You know, misophonia, it's a thing.

Yeah.

I didn't realize that.

That's good to know because the girls and I are very irritated with the way Barack chews.

Oh my God.

Well, that's chewing is the essence.

Like you hear the otherness of a person, right?

You hear they have a body.

They have saliva, they're, they're like, you,

it's like, oh, but why does it annoy us?

Should we,

is that a statement of something deeper?

And if it doesn't annoy you, is that a statement of something deeper?

No.

That's not fair.

Wrong again, Craig Robinson.

That's not fair.

Sorry.

There you go.

One more strike, and then you'll have to leave the table.

You guys could be sitting here crunching on cereal anything.

I'm sure we can find other ways in which we can dig in there.

Yeah, but we digress, though.

But it's, it's fascinating that that's a even

that edginess.

Yeah.

I like this, you know, that poet Keats that has the idea of like negative capability, like create emptying yourself in a way and really opening yourself up to be curious to another person.

Not listening so that you can talk.

but listening so you can really hear another person, like what matters to them.

Well, that's endless.

Yeah.

And that's an interesting thing.

I don't want to genderize this, right?

And there are a lot of people who are not curious.

They're not, you know,

open.

They have a way of dialogue that is, I'm going to relay information to you and then I'm going to move on, or I'm going to solve a problem, or I'm going to, there isn't a curiosity.

We aren't taught that.

And I wonder whether that's some of what Rachel might be experiencing or might want to consider in her marriage.

But as a, yes,

I think many people are not taught to

look for that in themselves and speak in that way to other people.

But you can cultivate that.

Yeah.

I mean, when that's what I do as an analyst, I

sit next to people and I turn my curiosity towards them and I create an environment that invites them to look inside and talk to me.

And you can do that.

You can do that with your husband, even if he doesn't know how to talk.

There was

in the last series that we did, there was this wonderful

Chinese American man, Rex.

Oh, I remember him.

Do you remember Rex?

Who

I don't think growing up, I don't think anyone ever asked him a question.

That's right.

Ever.

Yeah.

And he had no clue what was going on inside him.

No clue.

And their conversations in the beginning were like dead ends.

But you just sit there for a few minutes and ask him a question,

and suddenly the whole world would open up.

And he'd be shocked by what's coming out of his mouth.

Just give the person a chance.

Ask.

Yeah.

Ask.

Yeah.

Invite.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm just jotting down some notes.

And

to Rachel's point of

looking externally and comparing the,

I mean, comparing, I know we haven't become begun to scratch the surface of so many other things, but I know she, she's in that comparative mode, which so many of us are in this day and age.

Instagram.

Yeah.

Compare and despair.

I think if you want to look at other people for something useful rather than compare and despair, you can look at other people and get inspired, just like you were saying earlier, talk to people in order to learn something.

If

you have friends, a couple who are doing something well, you can learn from them.

You can ask them about it and learn from them.

If you're just looking at other people in order to feel bad about yourself or to generate envy, it's a complete waste of time.

Really, like,

really, like an addiction to be gotten rid of.

Yeah.

It seems, and maybe it's just technology that

I don't remember folks trying to be like

the Joneses as much as I do today.

I agree.

I agree.

There's some, I mean, there's something about this, the younger generations.

They live a very different life than ours.

You know, I don't want to be like like one of those older people that's like, oh, the younger generations, they got it all wrong.

It's different the way they're living.

Definitely,

the world on social media calls on people to perform their lives, compare more than we did.

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There's a there's a saying in basketball that my assistant coaches used to always say to me:

you never know what's going on in the other guy's huddle.

Yeah.

And whenever I was worried about the other team doing this or having better players than this, he's like, stop worrying about the other guy's huddle.

They got they're yelling at each other over there.

We can win this game.

It's the same thing in relationships.

Yeah.

But I, you know, I want to turn back to Rachel.

Talked about:

is there something I can do to kickstart our relationship?

And that sounds like

that could be good or bad, but is there a switch?

Is there something that she can do?

Is there something you can tell her that she can do while she's working on this other stuff?

You know,

I'm a psychoanalyst,

so

I don't don't believe in like quick fixes and tricks.

Seven steps to feeling more connected.

I know.

I don't have them.

Yeah.

But I think what we're talking about is like this inner orientation both towards like

every minute you can bring yourself to a place where you're taking more risks.

And you can ask your partner to do that.

I actually liked what she said about like writing notes, writing notes to each other.

It doesn't have to be love notes, but it sometimes when people write, they have to go deeper inside themselves to generate something.

So maybe communicating through writing as a way of,

in a way, announcing to each other, we're trying to speak from a more interesting place to each other.

That could be interesting.

Read poetry.

Maybe poetry to each other.

Poetry is like a very direct line to like when I feel like I'm losing something in myself.

There are certain poets that I turn to and I pull up, and it gets me right there.

Listen to music.

I mean, things that

get you there, that get you to a place where you're alive.

I wanted to ask you guys earlier, like,

what makes you feel alive?

What makes you feel like you're present?

In the life I live, which is so abnormal now.

Yeah.

It's really, it's like being outside.

You know, I mean, we've, I say this a lot.

Something that comes with fame that people don't, that

they don't appreciate, they're not cautious of is the loss of anonymity.

Yeah.

Like it's hard for Barack and I to just be in the world unobserved.

Yeah.

And as a couple, so much of your interaction just happens because you two are experiencing the world together, sitting in a park and watching life go by, you know, stopping at a cafe and getting a cup of coffee.

And then the conversation turns to the conversation next to you, right?

We're always the conversation next to the people we're sitting, right?

So you find yourself not looking out at the world.

Yeah.

So for me, aliveness these days comes from those kinds of experiences.

It's just taking a walk, you know, breathing fresh air,

hearing the sound of the ocean and being completely unnoticed and just being able to experience the world in that way.

Which is, I would have never thought that that would be.

And conversely, that's what we have fun doing.

Like we can go for a walk and we can experience autumn and the trees turning.

And our discussions range from the kids to work to family to politics.

And

that's how we generate our joy is doing family things.

That reminds me of something else with Rachel and the focus on the husband.

And you mentioned it earlier that

your spouse can't be everything.

I mean, especially at that phase of life,

you need friends, you need family,

you need more people in your life to carry the intense load of what it means to raise young children.

And I've said this before.

We now have this crazy notion that we're supposed to be this little unit of a family, the parents and children, toughen it out together, you know, in some kind of isolation when in fact...

throughout humanity, that's not how families were structured.

Absolutely.

There was an extended family.

There was always a big community.

There were always others, cousins, aunts, uncles, neighbors, friends.

And

some of what Rachel might be experiencing is what typically happens in young families.

They're trying to do it all alone, all by themselves.

And that's a piece of advice that I give when I'm out and about.

What got me through as a young mother was, you know,

there came a point in that mother, the mother-father relationship when I felt felt like my husband had all this free time, that he was going to the gym and, you know, he was still prioritizing his life and I was just stewing about it.

And I realized I can go to the gym too now, but I have to organize it, make it happen.

That was sort of the kickstart to me

to stop looking to him for what I needed.

Yeah.

And once I started doing that, I gave myself permission to do other things like go out with my girlfriends or have my friends over or build a strong community of other mothers.

It made me feel more alive,

less alone, less bored.

Of course.

But it was almost like I had to give myself permission because you were just, you thought that being a parent meant you spent every waking moment with alone with your child

by yourself.

Yeah.

And if Rachel's trying to follow that, she's not bored.

She's probably mad.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

She's probably very angry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is, it's what you're describing is a very

common phase that women go through.

And men are somehow freer from that.

They, they, they somehow know better how to take care of themselves.

Well, let's start there.

That's what they focus on, taking care of themselves.

Which is important.

It is good.

It's important.

You know, we criticize it i think we're envious

yes we're envious yeah we should learn to emulate it yeah this sort of sheer laser focus on one's self well this this is a great time to to to give rachel two or three tidbits to walk away with if you had If you had two or three things that we could give Rachel that she could come away with from this episode, what would it be?

Okay, so I'm actually going to start with what you said, Michelle, which is like, how about you carve out some space for yourself where you make sure you're alive, you're not bored?

Could be like 30 minutes a day and figure out what brings you there, what brings you to a place where you feel alive and content in yourself before you're talking to your husband, before you're thinking about your husband.

Number one.

Number two, when you're spending time with your husband, how about you get, you try to bring yourself to a place where you're really present

and really curious?

Like ask questions.

Oh, that's good.

Ask questions that will surprise you.

Yeah.

I love that.

You know, if I could redo a lot of things in my early motherhood time in my marriage, it would be to communicate my feelings to a husband that was actually willing to listen.

But you have this fear of like, well,

if I'm complaining, if I'm not doing it all, then maybe I'm failing.

Maybe I look weak.

Maybe I don't look like I can handle it.

And that's all you want to be as a mother is somebody who

appears to be handling it all.

So you don't want to share those, you know, vulnerable moments, those moments of doubt, those moments of loneliness, because you might be accused of not being a good mother.

Absolutely.

And I would add, as a a husband and a father, if you were to open up and say to me, I'm worried that I'm failing or I'm worried that I'm not doing it right.

I would, I would, I don't have any empirical data, but most husbands would be sympathetic and be helpful.

Yeah.

But the reason why I think you don't do it is because you're worried about him being negative.

And it's,

boy, I'd like to hope that it's unlikely.

Yeah.

Well, then we can just tell Rachel to have her husband listen to this episode.

Rachel's husband.

And it gets back to the husband, Rachel.

Rachel's husband.

The message from us to you, listen, be curious.

Be on your edge.

And, you know, make sure she gets to the gym and the spa, dude.

Yeah.

Focus on her.

Yeah.

If you're not doing that, Rachel's husband.

Right.

You think?

Yeah.

And

Rachel's husband should know that his wife's feeling bored, but she's going to work on it.

Yeah.

And if you're feeling bored, you'll have to work on it.

Absolutely.

And go to counseling.

That's another thing you can do.

You know, I think that that's also a piece of it.

Carve out that time.

Right.

It's, it's okay.

I think, you know, you may find that in 10 years, you may need another checkup.

And I'm finding that it's because we're, you know,

I'm doing therapy now because I'm 60 and at the end, I'm an empty nester.

I'm at a different phase in my life.

I'm trying to figure out who am I now, you know, now that I can make all the choices that are made are mine.

And now, how do I give myself permission?

How do I deal with the new level of boredom and the newness?

So it never ends, you know.

You're always figuring out yourself, yourself in relationships.

And that's what therapy is for.

It's to help you see parts of yourself that you can't see on your own.

You know, you'd never try to fix the back of your hair without a mirror.

You know, you can't see behind your back.

And wonderful therapy, but you also have to find a good one like Orna, and they're out there.

And if you can't find Orna, watch Couples Therapy.

Because the beauty of that show is that you sometimes

often see yourself in the couples that you selected.

And then you get Orna's therapy.

I highly recommend it.

It is truly one of my favorite shows.

It really makes me think deeply about myself and about my relationship.

And it could be a good kickstart to couples out there who don't know what couples therapy is, but, you know, can gain some insights just from watching those.

amazingly brave people share their stories with all of us.

Thank you.

thank you for being here.

This has been terrific.

Thanks so much, Orny.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you very much.

Hey, IMO listeners.

This is Adam Grant, host of the the Rethinking Podcast.

On my show, I have lively debates that challenge us to think differently.

Michelle and Craig, what do you see many people get wrong when they choose careers?

I think it's important for people to build careers around things that they enjoy, not just making money.

That's not to say that making money isn't important, but a career is a lifetime commitment.

I'm going to have to agree with you because your hot take is the exact advice you gave me when I was leaving corporate America.

And you said to me, if you can do something that you love doing, go ahead because we grew up not having money and we ended up just fine.

Following your passion is sometimes a luxury, but following your values is a necessity.

When you're considering new work opportunities, it's worth asking, do I want to become more like the people here?

Do they share my values?

I'm Adam Grant, and you can hear more hot takes like these from guests like Lynn-Manuel Miranda, Dolly Parton, Trevor Noah, Reese Witherspoon, Brene Brown, and more on my podcast, Rethinking, wherever you listen.