“Success” Looks Different for Every Family with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach

Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

Well, I'm biased.

I think New York is

a hard place to live.

I don't, you know, no offense to New Yorkers, but man, yeah, you know, I mean, I just, when I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there.

Pick them up,

pick them up away from the dirt.

This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Pine Sol.

I am so excited to be here.

So

very excited.

It's good to see you.

It's good to be seen.

Yeah, yeah.

What's been going on with you?

Well,

got a high schooler again.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Round two.

Round two.

Austin's going into high school.

Is he going to be playing basketball

he's properly worried about making junior varsity which is good okay because most kids who are freshmen think they should be playing in the nba

and he doesn't feel that way so i'm happy about that okay but he is um

he's got just enough confidence

but that's because he puts in the work he you know Austin's a worker.

Aaron just shows up game.

Well, your two are pretty exceptional i appreciate you saying that and speaking of exceptional malie and sasha at the wedding your oldest wedding yeah we they came to the wedding we did not it was so nice having them around yeah and and you know we we stayed in an airbnb

they stayed at a hotel but because we had the airbnb and plenty of room they were at our place almost entirely the whole time so it was really really fun for all the kids all the cousins to hang out together

great cousin time i mean you know, the four of them together, plus the two little ones,

there's nothing like it.

And the two little ones think that they are in their 20s with the

crew kids.

You know, I had to tell them just settle down.

Right, right.

Well,

I'm excited for the kids' next journey.

This is going to be a big year.

Yeah.

But I think they're going to do okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I'm going to segue to our question.

We have a great question

from one of our listeners talking about family and what to do, where to live and kind of the stuff that we've had to deal with in our family

on a couple of different occasions.

But we have a great,

I'm so excited for these two.

I know we've got some good guests.

We have some good guests to help with.

with with this question.

First off, we've got Glennon Doyle, who's the author of number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed, which has sold more than 3 million copies.

And I'm reading this to you.

You know these guys.

Yeah, yeah.

And she's joined by her partner, Abby Wambach, who's a two-time Olympic gold medalist.

Now you can see why I'm holding back on this.

Yes, yes, settle down, settle down.

FIFA World Cup champion and six-time winner.

of the U.S.

Soccer Athlete of the Year Award.

And I'm just going to stop right there.

You know how hard it is to be a athlete of the year one time?

I don't know because I've never been athlete of the year.

So I assume it's big.

That's a rare thing.

Yeah, it is rare.

It is rare.

She's also an activist for equality and inclusion and the author of a number one New York Times bestseller.

Imagine that.

Powerhouse couple.

You know something about that.

Her book is entitled Wolfpack.

And together, Glennon and Abby co-host the beloved chart-topping We Can Do Hard Things podcast.

Welcome, Glennon and Abby.

Come on down.

Yay!

It's so funny.

Guys, guys.

Have a seat.

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Thank you guys for being here.

I mean, Craig, he doesn't really know how amazing, really amazing you guys are.

Dude, I did my homework.

No, you don't know like I know.

But I had the pleasure of talking to you guys sadly on zoom

and it was amazing and i was like right after our zoom conversation i was like i want to be with them yeah

so here we are here we are you know we've got my my big brother here but we're doing some talking about things sharing ideas and you two were at the top of my list so i'm so grateful that you have come to Martha's vineyard, taking time off of your busy schedules.

And I'm glad that we're in the same room because it really is a different kind of thing.

So, so thank you.

Thank you both.

Thank you for having us.

This is such an honor.

Really an honor, really special.

And I think it's so special you're choosing to do this with some characters.

We'll see how long it lasts.

How's it going so far?

Is it going okay?

She's looking at the side of my head, wondering what is he talking about.

But it is fun.

This is our first joint project, really.

I mean, ever in our lives that it's been just you and me.

Yeah.

You know,

but we're glad to have you guys here.

We've got a really fun, not fun, but, you know, a question that is kind of familiar to all of us.

Yeah.

We've all sort of dealt with this as parents and, you know, good-natured people trying to figure out what's the best thing to do for family and kids.

Yeah, and we've got a question from a listener named Shira.

Let's take a listen.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

My name is Shira, and I'm 43 years old.

My husband and I have lived in New York City for many years, but after having two children in the last five years, we decided to move to rural Maine for more space and more affordable living.

However, now that we've been here for a couple of years, it no longer seems like the right choice.

We're isolated from a large network of friends or any family, and there aren't as many career opportunities for our professions.

I have my own handbag company and my husband is a film editor.

On one hand, moving back to New York City doesn't feel like a long-term solution.

I want to provide an anchored home base for my children, and the city doesn't really feel sustainable, especially without affordable childcare.

On the other hand, there isn't really any other city that offers a surefire support system for our kids' care.

Our parents are in Massachusetts and California, and they're aging, and our siblings' families are just too busy.

And there still isn't a better place for our joint careers other than New York.

Given that there isn't one perfect city or one obvious reasons to move anywhere, what should we prioritize when deciding when we have limited financial resources to draw from but life is too expensive in the city where we can make the most money what guiding principles should we use when deciding where to set up our family for the greatest stability and success thanks shira okay

so a lot of meat on the bones here a lot of meat but gang this is a great question because i feel like i talk about this all the time not so much in my personal life but we have young staff and many of them are starting to marry and build their families.

And this is something that everyone is grappling with, especially in this day and age where people are so transient, you know, and there's so many options and opportunities.

I mean, gone were the days when you grew up in the neighborhood that you were raised in, bought a house down the street from your mom, went to the school around the corner, and spent your life in one neighborhood.

We're now all over the place.

And so, what does that mean for families?

And how do you make decisions?

I mean, I literally talk about this a couple of times a month with

young people who are trying to figure out how to build a life.

So, it's one of the reasons why I was excited about this because I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this.

But Barack and I have talked about this because he sent us an article.

It talked about

how unusual the concept of the nuclear nuclear family is.

I don't know if you guys read that or did it, but it's like

that is a concept, the concept of

two parents and children building their lives together is a relatively new concept to this generation, that it isn't really how we were designed to be because we're kind of pack animals.

We live in community.

in ways that I think are more foreign to couples now because a lot of young couples are thinking about how do I make it on my own?

I moved away, I don't have support.

And so now I'm trying to do all this stuff, have a family, find childcare, and everybody is trying to do this alone.

And that's just a recent occurrence.

So I wonder whether we've sort of lost our direction in terms of what we should be looking for.

But I'd be interested in how you guys thought about it.

I mean, it's interesting because this question, whether we've admitted it or not, has kind of been swirling around our family from the beginning of time, even before I met Glennon.

Do you want to tell the story of Chase and the plants?

Yeah, so we have our oldest

is now in college, but became in high school obsessed with plants.

So he, his whole room was, there was 30 plants in there.

We called them our grand plants.

It was exhausting.

I didn't ever, I always had to be on guard when he was, had a sleepover.

And well, when did he, how did he get into plants?

That's we don't really know.

He's an interesting kid.

Yeah, like just covering, just a jungle.

And there was this one plant that

the vines would were all the way across the wall.

And he had like tacks guiding the.

So at one point, I said, you know, what's the deal?

Where's it on?

Why did it come from?

And especially this one with the wall.

And he said, I think I just really like to be able to see the passage of time and roots because we've moved so many times that I don't have that.

Wow.

Ooh.

Shiny.

Twist, pull out.

It has not stopped.

That was three or four years ago.

And that has been, we did, we moved all the time and we moved for money reasons.

I was teaching and we couldn't afford our area.

Then we moved close to my parents for the support.

Then

we thought like a lot of people have this experience where you love your parents and you think they're wonderful and you also kind of revert to a version of yourself when you're around your parents that you don't want to be the version of yourself that's raising your kids.

Right, right.

So I moved away from there and then in seven or eight moves.

And now we're in a situation where our kids don't, you know, our kid comes home from college, but it's not home.

Yeah.

It's a nice place.

Yeah.

But his friends aren't there.

So I just love that they're thinking about this because I think what happened to me, I did a little of the Goldilocks situation.

This place is too this, not enough that.

Right.

Right.

But I think I just ran out of time.

I think I just kept thinking, I'm going to find the place.

Right.

And then, so now they have a lot of

wings,

but they don't have the roots.

The roots.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know.

It's just something we think about all the time right now.

Like, what do you need in a place?

And I like that she said there's nowhere perfect because there is nowhere perfect.

When the kids are younger, you're a different kind of person and a parent than when they're a little bit older, getting into their teenage years and becoming young adults.

And so their needs change.

And we've been talking a lot about this because we're getting to the point where our youngest is about to go to college, empty nesters.

And we're wondering, oh, are we building a life so that they keep coming back to?

Or are we building a life that we want to live in?

And I think it's probably going to be a mixture of both.

But the truth is, they're not going to come back very often as time continues to go on.

So we have to figure out a world in which we want to live in with each other.

That maybe when they pop in, it's good.

This is such an interesting question because there's work involved, work versus family.

Or can you do the both?

And I think there is a level to the work part that we're not talking about because gone are the days when you can get a job and end up somewhere for 30 years and get the gold watch and the

retirement party at the end.

What I always feel like is we're training our kids to not

be so sedentary where they are.

Oh my gosh, I just got let go from a job and I can't operate.

That's right.

Because that's going to be more the rule than the exception.

That's

I get that feeling because being a coach, we've had to move.

Every time there's a job opportunity or a firing, you have to move.

And I always put it off as, oh, this is good for the kids.

I do too.

But it's not necessarily always that way.

It may be, I know it's good for the family.

But it may not be good for the kids.

And

it begs the question is how important is community for these young people?

Yeah.

The biggest worry that I had when Barack was elected, it wasn't the difficulty of the job.

It wasn't the strain or the hardship or the,

you know, the threats or all the things you might imagine.

I worried about my girls.

I worried about moving them out of what was the only community and home they had ever known where my brother was down the street and my mom was picking them up from school.

I mean, we had a really wonderful life in Chicago.

And I thought, I'm, I'm going to do the worst thing to these kids.

And they were seven and ten,

second grade and fifth grade.

I'm going to pluck them out in the middle of the school year, mind you, because the presidency doesn't work for families.

You know, it's like all the timing of it is really stupid.

So while we're transitioning, you know, trying to hire staff and come up with the initiatives and Barack is, you know, building his cabinet, I'm thinking, I got to get these kids in a school where they're not going to just be any kids, they're going to be kids with Secret Service.

You know, I just couldn't wrap my arms around

how to make this feel good for them.

But the long story short is that they did way better than I thought.

I mean, they transitioned better than I was transitioning.

So, this summer, we had a wonderful occasion happen in our family.

It was our eldest son's wedding.

The resort we stayed at had about 500 homes, and we were able to Airbnb one of the homes there.

And it was a guest favorite home.

And what that is, is that's one of a collection of 2 million homes that are the most loved in the Airbnb collection based on ratings, reviews, and reliability.

And our son, yes, the one who is getting married, wanted to make a cake as a tribute to my mom, his grandma, who had just passed away.

And I get choked up when I think about it, the fact that he wanted to do that.

Well, not only did he want to make it, He wanted his little brothers who are 14 and 12 to help him make it.

And our daughter, who's 28, was sort of supervising the whole thing.

And we're sitting there watching.

All I could see was disaster happening and the cake turned out beautifully.

Our son Avery wanted it to be at the reception.

So we get to the reception where there's a table of desserts, these beautiful, well-catered desserts.

And in the middle are two gigantic red velvet cakes that look like a 12-year-old made them.

There was icing.

everywhere.

There was coconut not quite on each piece.

But the good news was that every single piece of that cake was gone.

And I'm here to tell you, it was a delicious cake and a real tribute to my mom it turned out to be a wonderful opportunity for for all of us to be together share some time together and celebrate our son's wedding this episode of imo is brought to you by theraflu Hey, it's Craig Robinson here.

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And it was interesting because Barack wasn't worried about it because he was more of a transient kid.

You know, his mom was an anthropologist and traveled the world.

And, you know, he was born and raised in Hawaii, but spent time in Indonesia.

His mom was in, she wasn't there.

He didn't know his father.

He grew up with more instability

in that sense

and thought moving is not a big deal.

You know, there's seven and ten.

We didn't move at all.

My mother, when she left the White House, she moved back into the home that we grew up in.

So that's how sort of steady and stable and secure we were.

And I was terrified that this was going to ruin them.

You were.

I was, I really could barely focus until it wasn't until I got the final, you know, when the kids get invited to their first play date and it feels like a real friend.

And, you know,

that wasn't until March where I felt like, okay, I can breathe.

I mean, forget about everything else that was happening and the attacks and the all the politics.

Knowing that they were settled and we're going to be okay, that was the biggest relief that I had.

But I say all that to say that they turned out okay

because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for.

And even if your father is president of the United States and you live in the strange museum and you have men with guns following you around all the time,

if you're grounded, you know, if you have that place of assurance somewhere, then that kind of gets you through.

And strangely, that has me arguing to Shira that, as you were saying, Abby, figure out the life you need to live, you know,

because kids, they're going to be gone.

And these years are just a blip on the screen in their lives, if assuming that they're young and they

do better than you expect if you're okay with it.

If you're okay.

If you're okay.

Yeah, because the stability, the stability, the home that our kids have always had is us.

Right.

It's, it's, that is the guiding principle is

I see you.

I'm letting you reveal yourself forever.

And I'm here.

And that's not geographical, right?

Right.

But I do think sometimes when I think back, and I don't beat myself up about it, I did the best I could, but I,

right when I was freshly sober,

I was just growing up.

I was growing up.

And could I do it over again, I would have found a way, I think, to been doing work on myself as I was going along yeah like that i think that's what i would say to a new parent like i don't know what the answer is geographically

but i think if i had had some sort of accountability partner i know that nobody can afford therapy it's awful like yeah but somebody who may have said to me you seem to be moving every 18 months

it's just like it's impossible there's something going on with you

that that feels like the life for yourself and being right with yourself then flows out to the babies who are just looking at you really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I also think that there's something inside of Shira's question

that has a desire for structure.

And when we have the conversations around

families and children and all of the stuff that I know Shira knows about and a business that she's running and her husband and dealing with it,

it is nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives.

Yeah.

But there just isn't.

Like, we're all just making it up.

Yep.

All of us.

And because our parents did it in a vastly different way than most of us are doing it now, my parents are still in the same house that I was born in.

For me, it's like, I do like structure liberates me in a way to be like held to also be free within it.

But also as these children grow up and as you grow up, like when we become adults, I think people just assume at 25 that we're now adults forever.

Like my 35-year-old self was very different than my 25.

My 45-year-old self is going to be very different than 35.

Like

we're all still growing up and trying to figure out because the world is so different.

Yeah.

And so be easy on yourself, Shira, and

know that, yes, it feels good to have some structure, but also that there has to be a fluidity in the creating of these philosophies or priorities when trying to decide what is most important here.

Is it work?

Is it marriage?

Is it kids?

Is it, you know, support systems around you?

And this whole notion of growing up, it never happens.

I was just having this conversation with Malia, our oldest, who is now, how old is Malia?

She's

26 because she doesn't have insurance now.

So

we were rushing.

She was like, Obamacare.

Thanks.

It's like, yeah, thank your dad.

Thank your dad.

But she just turned 26.

But it's so, so they live on their own.

They live in LA.

She's writing, directing, doing her thing.

And it is so funny when she goes,

Is this it?

Am I an adult now?

And it's, and I'm like, you know, this is kind of what life is.

You know, she's like, but I don't feel like I know anything more than I did three years ago.

And it's like, yeah, and you're going to feel that way at 35 and 45.

I mean, there isn't a time when you reach adulthood and you go, I'm an adult.

No, I'm 60 and I'm still waiting to grow up.

And wait till you have a kid.

You won't know what's going on again.

That's right, right.

That's a whole back to the beginning.

But I think you make a good point about, you know, we've got to be easier on ourselves in terms of how we define life.

You know, in this question is this notion that there's a right way to do this.

And if you've lived it, you know, there isn't an answer.

There isn't a one way that a family looks.

And that's not where the happiness comes from, that you're following some straight, narrow definition of what it means to be a family, whether it's geographically or economically or what have you.

And that's a beautiful lesson for kids to learn early, you know, that home is wherever you make it.

I mean, I think that's what I learned after our eight years in the White House is that home is wherever we are.

You know, we will build the home from within.

The external factors are just the nature of life and life changes

and things happen.

It's really interesting that Mish says that it came to her later.

Because I always felt that.

And I'll tell you when I really felt it.

I grew up on the South side,

but I played basketball on the West side, which is

in Chicago.

It's like being in another country.

It was a rougher area as far as I could tell.

But I came to find out that the guys from the West Side thought the South side was harder.

Oh, interesting.

But my dad worked a swing shift.

And when he could, he would come to practice.

He was the only parent there.

And when one of the kids from the other team said, Man, you must really love it that your dad comes to practice.

In the meantime, I was hating the fact that he was the only dad there.

And it was at that point that I realized that

my family was special.

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It was at that point I realized wherever my family is, I could feel home.

And when I think about Shira's question,

I would hope that she would get from us here today that

it doesn't matter where you live.

It doesn't.

And the point I want to get to is that Shira and her husband have to be more empathetic to themselves.

I think they're being hard on themselves and understanding that, hey, it's it's up to you too.

And you may not know what the answers are.

You may not know,

but just love, love those kids, love your community, get involved, and

have your parents come visit when they can come visit.

Yeah.

But I think people have to be careful not to parent out of guilt.

That's right.

You know, and what I worry about or I would caution Shira is to, when you do make that choice, whatever the choice is.

don't parent them like you've hurt their feelings.

You know, because sometimes people over

they overcompensate for choices that they feel bad about

that's the disservice to kids it's not moving them it's not that they can't see their grandmother or they you know live in a city or an apartment or don't have a yard kids respond to their situations based on how you act that's right you know i mean Barack was president of the United States and I could have felt sorry for my girls, right?

It's like, oh my God, you know, look what we did to you.

And, and I sort of went the opposite direction.

It's like, this isn't about you.

We just happen to live in this house.

It's your father's job.

Every father has a job, you know, so just get on with it.

Yep, you got secret service.

I'm not going to poor thing you to death.

It's odd, but it's what you have.

And I think parents, we have to be careful not to push our guilt into our parenting

because that can mess your kid up.

Yeah.

I got divorced when my middle one was seven.

She's seven.

She was ten.

Your middle was

never.

I'm like that.

I barely remembered how old Malia was today.

She's 18 now.

Every once in a while, she'll be like, I'm like your room.

She's like, oh, it's just the divorce.

You know what?

Yeah.

So you just really do have to

do it.

Yes, you do have to move them along.

That just makes me think of this might be a side tangent, but as a step parent, we call it bonus parent.

I have often wondered, and Glendon's been such a wonderful leader in our family in this way and helping me learn how to parent because I became an insta mom

like that.

In fact, one of the times we were going through

a drive-through and they wanted a cake pop.

And I said, yes, this is great.

I'm going to get cake pops.

And

And they said,

can we have one?

I'm like, yes, okay.

And so I ordered and they said, how many?

And I I said, all of them.

And I said, oh, no, I will turn this corner around.

Nobody gets any cake.

No cake props.

I was just trying to buy their love.

Wow, with all of them, you would.

All the cake props.

I know.

So Glennon, luckily she was there and she put the kibosh on that.

Yeah.

But I don't know why I went down this road.

I just know, but it's, it is about the parenting.

And sometimes I did overkill on the parenting of trying to be normal to the extent that one time Malia was on punishment for a semester.

I mean, it was, it was too much, right?

It was a whole semester.

I mean, because did she do something?

Like, did she murder?

She murdered a teenager.

No, she didn't murder a human.

She did teenage stuff.

But this is, you know, every time something happened.

And they're teenagers in the White House.

I'm thinking, oh my God, this is a sign.

They're going to be on the street.

They're going to be addicts.

And this is really going to mess them up.

That's right.

So I got to put down the hammer.

Right.

And so the hammer over this incident was: you're grounded for a semester.

And it didn't start out as a semester.

First, it was a month.

And then I let her off.

And then she didn't make curfew or did something like that.

And, you know, I'd have these lectures and this guilt stuff.

And, you know, my oldest, who's very sweet, she understood how to just look me in the eye and go, you're right, mom.

I don't know what got into me.

You're so right.

She just sucker me.

And it's like, I'm going to think about that.

And

you know,

and I'm just like, this kid, then I was like, you're just, you're punking me.

Yeah.

You know, so now it's a semester.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and Barack is trying to, he's trying to be the president, but also trying to be a good parent.

And he's like, yeah, whatever your mom says, although he's looking at me like a semester, I was like, I said a semester.

Yeah.

And I cannot go back.

No, you can't.

You know, so.

Wait, wait a minute.

Stop.

Abby, what's the longest you've been on punishment?

In my life?

Like when I was a kid?

Yes.

I mean, I was a pretty bad kid.

But the longest one term.

I got grounded once and it was one night.

And how about you?

I was grounded for a quarter.

We had quarters.

I got a couple C's and that was it.

But I used to get grounded outside because all I wanted to do is sit inside and read.

So my parents were like,

I must go and be with people.

Yeah.

You must people.

And that was a horrible punishment.

You never got to see it.

How long have you been grounded?

I was never never really grounded.

Never

grounded.

But I never, I wasn't a bad kid.

Yeah.

I wasn't doing anything.

Who never gets grounded and then

who never gets grounded and then assigns a semester?

But for somebody who is worried about

the choices her husband is making

royally messing up her children.

I get it.

Because look, anytime our kids do a very, very minor, minor situation, I'm like, oh, they can't ever leave the house again.

She thinks it's because you think it's your fault.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh, it's because you're only grounded for a week or a day or whatever it was.

The world knows us.

It's because of money, whatever it is.

You don't want them to be entitled.

No.

You know, you don't want to get any of those signs.

That's exactly now.

So let me finish.

I was wrong.

It was too long.

No kidding.

It didn't work.

It didn't have the desired effect.

So, but I was learning is my point to Shira.

Yes.

It's like sometimes we overcompensate our, you know, I mean, and this is a strange position.

I didn't have any role models of kids in high school in the White House.

Oh, man.

And your dad's the first black president.

Come on, give me a break.

I was kind of flying blind on this, you know, so much so that, you know, I learned with Sasha coming up, who was rarely on punishment, but of course, Malia heard about it.

It's like, why isn't Sasha on punishment?

It's like, because what I did to you was wrong.

So I'm not going to repeat it just because you did it.

But the broader point is, is that sometimes our guilt,

our issues get in the way of our parenting.

So true.

And, you know, making a move and making changes, moving into a smaller house, moving away from friends, all those things can feel really heavy as a parent.

And I guess my experience is like, it didn't really hurt them that bad.

They turned out to be pretty good kids.

And it wasn't because of the semester punishment.

It wasn't.

I was just trying to keep her off the front page of people.

The burden of being the oldest right there.

Yeah.

And also, I think like

where Shira might be at too,

I think we are in a world that we can make lists of pros and cons, and we can talk to the people.

We can even send in a podcast question to Michelle Obama

to figure out.

But the truth is, and I think Glennon could probably expand on this a little, I think she already knows.

Yeah.

I think deep down, there's a knowing inside of her.

She's just looking for confirmation some which way.

Because at the end of the day, nobody knows what the heck they're doing.

We just have to make decision after decision.

And some are right and some are wrong.

And you just kind of like flow with it.

Yeah.

Flow with it.

And the fact that she's even asking it.

I talked to this one parenting expert that said that the trouble is that all the parents that come to her to say, am I doing this right?

What should I do?

Those are the parents that don't need her.

The fact that Shara is even asking these questions, even saying, what does success look like for my family?

That's a great question.

Like, I wish I had done that.

Sit down with your person and say, what does success mean?

Because you don't want to take the culture's default

of that.

That's a beautiful question.

Yes.

You know, what does it mean?

What do you want your adult children to, all I care about is that they are who they are

and that they know that they have a home in us to constantly return to.

Yeah.

And so if that's success, that's enough.

Right.

So would we be,

would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

Well, I, I'm biased.

I think New York is a living.

No, that's why I was leading only.

I don't know what the place to live.

I don't, you know, no offense to New Yorkers, but man,

you know, I mean, I just, when I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there.

Pick them up.

Pick them up away from the dirt.

You know, I mean, you walk the streets of New York in white pants and they're dirty by the end of the day.

I was like, you got your kid down there.

Yeah.

And so I'm, you know, Chicago is a very different city.

Yeah.

You know, it's smaller, it's cleaner.

It's just New York is just one of a kind.

It really.

And it just seems like a hard way to live.

Yeah.

You know, little ones.

A little ones in a stroller going down the subway.

I'm just like, wow, that looks hard.

It does.

I'm a three-day New York City person.

I'm not with you.

Three-day max, two nights, three days, and I'm solid.

I love it.

I'm like, this is

a wonderland.

And then I'm like, please help me get out of here.

Yeah.

Is there something though?

I would, I do think, like, when I hear you talk about the way that you were raised and the community,

I do

crave that.

I wish for people for young couples.

I don't think it has to be your family.

Like not everyone is lucky.

I agree.

Sometimes it can't be.

Sometimes the support you need is not that.

And I think there's a lot of pressure that it's that or nothing, which is no good for a lot of young couples.

Sometimes you really do need to start

new.

There's something to the accountability of community.

I think it's just so easy to when things get hard.

And I think I did this many times to just eject.

And there's something that doesn't develop character-wise as much, I think, in that.

Like, I do wish for people some kind of steady community

in one way, but that not has any form.

I completely agree with you because that's my lifeblood.

I mean, I've got, I'm blessed to have a brother that I love.

My mother was there for us.

We had a good extended family.

But, you know, a lot of my support came from friends that I built, the friendships that I built outside of my family.

But I do know that you have to have intentionality to do that.

And it is well worth the effort.

You know, at every stage of my kids' life, I made sure that I knew other parents, you know, that I got to know them

so that I would know who my kids were going to a sleepover with.

And that required me to invite some people to dinner or go to lunch with a mom or, you know, extend myself.

And when we got to the White House, that was even weirder and harder, right?

Because here I am, the first lady of the, you know, no matter how I acted, I come in with all the first lady smoke, you know, the secret service, the, you know, the assistants, the putting me in a hold room.

And, you know, we were just a disturbance to the, you know, ether.

I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place to try to build community because nobody really could come up to me.

I mean, as friendly as I might be, there's just a wall of,

you know, and if you came up too fast, you might get

a lockhole, you know?

So there was some physical barriers.

So it was incumbent upon me to reach out or to cozy up to somebody on the bleachers and start a conversation or to put a call in to the mom and to thank them.

And from that,

each phase of my life, whether it was in Chicago on the South Side or in the White House, I built this community of moms and other friends and people that I could call and get the inside scoop on where the party was for the sophomores and whether the parents were actually there.

And did they have drugs?

And, you know, you're only going to get that information from other parents.

Your kids aren't going to tell you.

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You have to tell yourself that that's important and then you have to make the effort to build that community.

So Glenn and I agree.

I mean,

Our community is our friends as well.

And they saved me during those years.

And for sure, I think that, you know, wherever wherever they go, that should be the goal.

Don't try to do this parenting thing on your own.

You know, you need help, you need insight, you need advice, you need other people's perspectives.

And that's as important as your job.

That's right.

You know, it's like, so you might have a great career and you might have a wonderful business, but you need to have friendships that nurture your family.

And you've got to make time for that.

And you've got to be intentional about that.

And to say that it is just as important as the success of your handbag business that you have this community of support and love.

And your kids are going to, they're going to benefit twofold.

It's so true.

And Craig, I'm going to get you excited about the line of conversation.

I think we'll go with this.

Get the oldest into sports.

That is because I've moved a lot in my life and we've moved a couple of times.

Getting the kids into sports is like, first of all, the kids are the same age, so they're going to grow up the parents are around ish the same age as you

and nowadays unfortunately although your dad was great nowadays i think it's the opposite that it's kind of bizarre how much the parents watch the practices yeah yeah i'm like just let them practice like stop because they're they're there like yelling at them and they're there like trying to coach them it's not it's not as it's not as sweet as what your father was doing

um

but it's like a insta friends like you sit on the sidelines and you're just like, hey, how's it going?

You know, what's going on?

So that's something for Shira and her partner to think about.

Yeah, no, that I completely agree with that.

And our moving around was

made easier because our kids were in sports.

Yeah.

So they had a natural group to

have an affinity with.

And there's nothing better.

And even your girls.

Yeah, no, we always had them in sports they were not sports kids but they were required to do a team sport and an individual sport yes you know it's just like just get out there just learn how to compete yeah you know learn how to lose you know we don't care if you like it or not yeah yeah that's what we did with our middle one i didn't understand that i was like well but if they're not good yeah should they not play sport and no what i I have never

during the divorce, I was thinking about putting one of them into more therapy and and Abby said, how about not?

And we just put them in soccer.

Yeah.

And I thought, that's strange.

Yeah.

But really, wow.

All the things that you put, it's like a little container to practice safely everything that's hard about being human.

Yeah.

Winning.

Losing trials.

All of it.

It really shaped her completely.

Yeah.

I think.

It really did.

And look.

We learned very quickly that sports were not going to be the thing for her.

She came off the field one day and she was talking to her friend and she said,

You know, how, like, you're out there and you're miserable and you hate it and you're terrified the whole time.

You're scared.

And her teammate was like, No, what?

And she came home and she said,

I'm not supposed to be terrified.

I said, No, honey.

So she now does music and she's doing great.

She said, Here's a guitar.

Yeah, yeah.

Try this.

Do something.

And you cry at night before practice every night or just nothing but tears.

But I want to get back to Shira here.

I just want what

all this was for Shira.

This is.

And one of the things she talked about was being where she is up in rural Maine,

the resources for her family are limited, which is why she was thinking about moving to New York.

And I love the fact that

you're thinking, Abby, that both of you are like, she knows the answer.

She wants some justification, but there is some concern for parents and people if they're not making enough money

for their families.

And let's just say that they weren't thinking New York, right?

They were thinking Chicago or LA or

Dallas, Texas or somewhere.

Another big expensive city

expensive city

would help their overall resources.

How do you look at that?

I mean, I were sure I'd be looking at preschools.

I mean, when I was teaching, I had to quit teaching when I had my second baby because I couldn't afford to teach.

Yeah.

I could not afford to afford child care to go right.

Yeah.

So then I ended up starting a preschool in my home, which I do not recommend.

Yeah, yeah.

Don't do that.

No, no.

But wow, there are so many places that do have beautiful,

affordable daycare.

You just have to find them.

And getting kids started in a really strong preschool and elementary school, to me, feels like the most important thing.

I would look at that.

I mean, it's tricky because she said, I want to be in a city so I can make money, but the cities are too expensive to live in.

Yeah, that's right.

So it's a double bind that is.

Well, it's almost like they gotta, they've gotta really run the numbers, right?

Because sometimes people make snap decisions.

And this is one of those things, like, especially if it's New York,

where you, you know, you might price yourself out of a life, you know, just being there.

So now you're working to work.

That's right.

And that's when I think, you know, you got to start thinking about quality of life too with your career.

Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition, and you can't save for college

and you can't have a vacation you can't take time off you know you're you're working to live um those answers are in the numbers um

you know i don't know how the average family can afford to live in new york city it's a it's a harder way to live some people don't have a choice but if you have a choice i you know i personally wouldn't want to be so tied to my job and a salary because you just never know what's going to happen.

You know, people get laid off.

You know, somebody gets sick.

You know, when you have a family, you got to have some margin for error.

That's right.

You know, a kid could get sick.

You might have to, you know,

take off of work.

And this is one thing our father was pretty good at because I know when we were little, I always wanted a house.

You know, I was a little girl that wanted a house with stairs and a station wagon.

There were things in my mind.

And we lived in a teeny tiny apartment over our aunt's house.

And my mom, eventually, my aunt died.

She gave the house to our family.

That was the only reason we could afford to own a home.

I don't think that it mattered that much.

You know, it felt like it when I was a little girl, but in hindsight,

I thought that our life was brilliant, you know, that we didn't have a lot.

And that wasn't what made me who I am, having a house with stairs.

But our father was pretty clear on not being house poor.

So he just didn't make a lot of risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay the bills or he couldn't save for college.

So the trade-off was we didn't have a house with stairs and a nice fancy station wagon.

And we weren't worried.

We weren't living hand to mouth.

Things felt fine and good.

So I do think it's important for families not to push themselves to the margins where things can't go wrong.

Where you're

beholden to one thing.

You got to give room for error.

That's why it's so beautiful to ask yourself, like, what is success?

Yeah.

I mean, the amount of communities that I've stepped into where the idea of enough is not even a thing.

There are communities in New York and everywhere where you will enter and never, you will never see the end to what the keeping up with the Jones is, the keeping up with the, it just becomes a pursuit of something that is unattainable.

And so to actually ask yourself, what is success for this little family, like not feeling scarcity,

having a cushion, then you start to make different decisions if your idea of success is different than whatever culture you're in is telling you it is.

I think people, I really feel like people are starting to do that.

I think the like emperor has no clothes of the, of the treadmill of more and more.

It's, it's, it's an empty promise that now is feeling empty.

And I think these are the questions people are starting to ask.

And it's really cool.

People are going to make different decisions.

Do you all feel, and this, this can be anybody,

I'm getting the impression that parents today

are rushing their kids to be free of

their kids.

Like they, we want, they want their kids stable so they don't have to worry about about it.

They want their kids out in the world and doing the right thing and supporting themselves so they won't be bounce back kids.

And I feel like I never felt that from my parents.

I could always go back home.

As a matter of fact, when I was going through my divorce, I did go back home.

Me too.

And I moved upstairs where I grew up with my kids, and my mom lived downstairs.

It seems to me that

some of the mental health issues that

our young adults are having are just the fear of going out into the real world and not being ready.

And then you can't come back home because your parents are trying to push you away for whatever reason.

It could be a valid reason, or it could be that they just want to do their own thing as parents.

And

have you guys seen that or thought about that?

Yeah.

I mean, when you say it, it makes me think of, oh, because that's what we were told is success.

And that is actually like in my heart i understand that they need to be able to be independent but that's not what i want or think of like i want

there to be an interdependence like especially because because of the fact that we move so much i am their community like we are each other's community and i don't it doesn't make sense to me like other cultures and other countries don't have that rigid of a structure i do think maybe that is a thing that we could let go of as the barometer, complete independence by 21.

I also think that I've been informed in a little different way because when I left for college, I never went home.

Right.

And I knew that was going to happen.

I knew that I was a good soccer player.

I knew that I was going to be gone.

Like, I never even went home for the summer.

Like, I was just always training with the national teams, with the youth national teams.

And so, there is a part of me that knows that that was probably not healthy and probably not great for

my overall connection probably with my birth family.

And there's another part of me that is so grateful because it forced me to take care of myself and become this like force, this independent person who has a ton of agency.

I'm not scared of much.

anything that comes through the door, I'm able to handle it.

And so I see our youngest

kind of, she's in soccer.

She's getting recruited right now.

It's very exciting

and and there's going to be a time where i know that if she really wants to go and and signs with the college i know that she's going to come back less than the others and that's going to be hard on this one

and it will be hard on me too but i will i will have i have walked that walk yeah um that's why i was trying to keep the mediocre before she came which was my whole job seriously every time somebody they'd be in gymnastics and somebody would say they're getting really really good.

Do you want to do the?

I was like, Oh, no, no, let's

swimming.

Like, mediocre was the goal.

I don't have to give up my weekend.

And then this one came, and now they're being recruited.

Oh, Lord.

Yeah.

So it's interesting.

You know,

there's probably no right or wrong way necessarily.

I do think

that there is a wisdom in our children's generation

and also a little bit of softness.

Both.

I think because

of parents getting more therapy and being more open to listening to what their kids have to say and talking more about trauma and being more in that kind of frame of mind, these children have more wisdom and they have more understanding and they see the world differently and they experience the reality of their world very differently than we did on television screens.

They're doing it 24-7 on their phones.

And I also think there's a part of the generation that our children are growing up in that is,

it's not in the real world as much.

And so it's scarier for them.

Abby, I agree.

I mean,

I feel the feelings of wanting to be somewhere in the middle.

It is a delicate balance because it's like you want your kid.

I want my daughters to feel independent.

I really want them to have the confidence to know that they can figure this stuff out, that life isn't rocket science, that it's a lot of common sense.

And, you know, and some of that you're only going to learn by doing, which means you're going to have to fail.

And I think.

A lot of parents are afraid of watching that failure.

It is the hardest thing to do to watch your kids walk into a wall that you knew was there.

And you told them not to walk into it until they hit it and get a lump on their head, they just won't learn it.

That's a painful thing for us.

If you keep your kids from that experience of bumping their heads, you're robbing them of their own competency.

That's right.

Right.

They need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out.

Go to the doctor, put some ice on it.

Don't do it again.

Let's talk about it after the fact.

But as you get older, I shouldn't have to walk you through everything.

I think it's a constant exercise of extending the leash, you know, always err on the side of making it longer, not letting it go.

But it's for them to say, you like the bump on the head, you got this.

You're good, you know?

And they, this, these aren't hard choices, but I think sometimes parents are, you know, holding on a little bit too long.

Yeah.

And with that said, I want my kids to know when things are really bad,

right?

And you're really in a bind, no, don't even question

because we know you work hard.

We know who you are.

We know that you're not trying to get over.

We know you wake up every morning, giving it a shot, but life can be hard.

So take some risks because you'll land softly here.

Yes.

But you can do this.

You know, I think that's always my message.

And you start with Shira when your kids are five and two.

You know, start making decisions, no matter what they are, whether it's moving or staying or you go to one school or you don't, you tell them you can handle this.

Yeah.

You got this.

And then you're watching from the gate, just making sure everything is okay, but they shouldn't know that you're watching.

You know, they shouldn't know, but you're watching, you know, but they should think, look at what I did.

You know, I started a new school.

I made a new friend.

I figured out my own homework.

I wrote my own paper.

I got a C, but I didn't get an A paper because my mom wrote the other half of it.

You know, this was my C.

It was my, it was my victory, my failure.

And I think parents making decisions that make sense for the whole, you know, and giving your kids credit for being resilient, letting them build that, that resiliency muscle.

I think that's what readies them, right, for life, which is our ultimate job, not to have them in our basement.

Because if that was, my kids would still be sleeping in my bed.

That's right.

They would.

Brock is the only reason that, you know,

I love sleeping with my kids.

Anytime I got a big one, you sit on my lap.

I'm just like,

so

same with Glennon.

Don't feel bad about yourself.

I would still be doing that.

We had two twin beds on the floor

on the edge of our bed.

Whoa, okay.

Look at her face.

No, they're not judging.

They were were just like, look at that.

She's saying, why didn't I think of that?

She's like, dang it.

Yeah, I am picturing that.

It's like, yeah, then they just roll over.

It's a good

point, though, to

figure out for Shira what Shira needs and wants.

Because what you're talking about, when you say all of that, I'm thinking,

We do that because we want to still be needed.

Yeah, yeah.

We do that because we're like, oh, I'm right now in the, my children are becoming adults and I, my role is completely different.

It's the hardest, the hardest part of parenting I've done.

And there is the tendency to create the codependent thing because you don't know who you are

without that.

And so it could be the most important thing to be creating a life where your kids know you're okay.

So that your job actually can be to create resilient kids.

Yeah.

Because some people, some of us get confused and think our job is to keep not keep them needing me.

Yes, yes.

And so to build the community that they need, that Shira and her partner need, and to build a career that she feels enlivened by and a life, then her kids can know she's okay and they'll be okay.

Okay off.

Yeah.

That's that's the perfect segue to, and I don't want Shira to be saying, I wish I hadn't sent in this question because I don't know any more.

What are our takeaways?

What are a couple of takeaways for Shira to

be able to go, she and her partner go back and at least formulate a plan for a decision?

Sit down with your husband and figure out what you need.

I mean, I think Michelle was saying that

write it down, figure out what is at the bottom line,

what the cost is going to be, what the pros of that cost.

And then go deep, deep down and figure out what you want.

I think we're all afraid to actually figure out what it is we really want.

And we tend to stay in the I should lane.

And so get brave enough to go figure out what it is.

And it sounds like she's good at it because she's a handbag maker of her own.

That sounds probably like something that she wanted.

And geographically, it's not about the geography.

I don't want to take away from your guys' options.

No, no,

that's absolutely true.

It's like the job of the couple, the family, the adults is to make the adult decision.

Yeah.

You know,

and don't be afraid to be guided by what the adults need, you know, but don't parent out of guilt.

Once you make the adult decision, don't feel sorry for your child because you did something that you wanted to do.

Love them, give them stability,

you know, help them grow in their new community and their new surroundings, but still parent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I would just say, what is success?

Really talking to each other about what does a successful family, what do you mean by that?

What do most of us don't even get to the differences of those ideas until 10 years in.

But we've all been taught different things from our families of origin about what success means.

I think sometimes people don't think enough about, yes, let's build community, but the community you're in right now is the two of you.

So what does a successful dad?

What does a good dad mean to you?

What does it mean to be a good mom?

Because those are loaded things that we don't pull apart.

We need to like, you know, really get the mental load written down and really assign things.

What are you going to do?

What are you going to do?

The support often needs to be worked out.

within the family first, right?

So I think there's beautiful conversations to be had.

And anybody sitting down to figure out what success is instead of defaulting to the culture is going to be better off.

Yeah.

And there are many ways to build a family.

Yes.

There's no right answer.

There really isn't.

And

you guys both said it.

It is filled with roadblocks and stumbles.

And even when they do all the pros and cons and lay it out, they may make a decision and it doesn't work.

That's right.

And guess what?

Change it.

You know,

you get a do-over.

There are so many do-overs in life.

There are few things that really, you know, ruin a kid or ruin a family.

There's just, you know, if there's love,

you know, if there's effort, right?

And if there's trust,

all the rest of it, you're just figuring it out.

That's right.

So forever tries.

We always say family

forever tries.

And make your little plan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll see.

Right, right.

That's right.

It's like, I trust, trust me.

That's what you thought.

Right.

A year later, the plan will be different.

I always think the only stability we really have is like you and me right here.

That's the stability.

You and me, and then me and Amma, and then me and Tish.

It's like a direct, I'm looking at you, you're looking at me.

That's the stability we have forever.

The geography,

even our family structure

changed.

Sometimes stability isn't what you need

to step into the next most beautiful imagination of your family.

So, but that direct line person to person, that's what has to be stable, I think.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, Shira, I hope this has been helpful.

Because it's been helpful for you.

What are you going to do?

She's got to send in.

Any follow-up on it.

And then we can judge it.

That's right.

That's right.

Terrible is this.

Shira.

I don't know how you got that out of what we did.

I must say that the thing that I got, and this could be my coaching background, is you always have to be prepared to pivot

and not be afraid to pivot.

And I'm hearing this from your family.

I know it happened in our family.

As parents, we've all had to pivot, and the kids are better for it.

Yeah.

So I really appreciate that on Shira's behalf.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

Abby Glenn, and thank you guys.

Thanks for taking the time, being a part of this.

incredible conversation.

I want to do it again and again.

Thank you.

Yeah.

It's good to see you guys.

It's really

good to meet you.

It's good to meet you.

We have to talk about elite athletes

one day.

Okay, we can do a show on that.

We can see an episode on that.

We can heckle them.

Well, we just absolutely.

I love this conversation.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you guys.

This is

all right.

It's great to meet you both.

Be well.

Hey there, it's Michelle and Craig.

On our IMO podcast, we've brought in some incredible guests to answer your burning questions and share our opinions about the things that matter to all of us.

Like what success looks like in different families with Glenn and Doyle, why we all need to learn how to say no with Taraji P.

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