Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth

So, this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs.

Obama, but I'm going to tell you this

because it applies to this person's situation.

When I was 25,

I happened to be dating.

Don't judge me, Mrs.

Obama.

Okay, let's hear it.

Okay, you promised.

I don't know.

I can't promise right now.

It's a safe space.

It's a space.

You have two daughters.

I'm sure they brought you some

stuff.

Oh, please.

And you've had to keep this.

And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that.

Okay.

This episode is brought to you by Pine Salt and Theraflu.

Well, hey, hey, I am here.

We are here chatting.

I'm solo this time.

I usually have my big brother Craig to join me in these conversations, but he's feeling under the weather.

So, but we're going to proceed without him because we've got a great question that is perfect for our guest.

And I want to welcome one of my favorite people, Elaine Walter Roth, who, you know, goes without any introduction.

She is beautiful, smart, sharp, awesome.

Her resume, she's a New York Times best-selling author, award-winning journalist, former judge on one of my favorite shows that I still never got to go and sit and judge.

It could still happen.

Project Runway.

We'll see.

It's on my bucket list.

Another thing that you are known for is being at the helm of Teen Vogue, doing great things.

But you've also launched Birth Fund, which is a foundation that provides grants for midwifery, birth support, and holistic prenatal care for mothers.

And I didn't know about that work.

You're doing it all.

Look who's talking.

Thanks for being here, Elaine.

We've got a great question that's right up your alley.

But before we jump in, I just want to check.

How are you doing?

You look great.

You got some things going on.

Some things.

Some things.

Tell us all about it.

Some big things are popping literally about you.

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.

What a dream.

I am 33 weeks pregnant.

32, I think 32 weeks pregnant today.

Congratulations.

Thank you so much.

This is the perfect way to bless the bump before we get into that final, final stretch.

But it's a good segue into, oh,

it's almost a good segue because it's like before you get to having the baby.

You got to choose who you're going to do it with.

You got to figure out who you're going to have it with.

And that takes us to our question for today

from a young woman named Alice.

who's 30 years old and is trying to figure out this whole mothering thing.

Hi, Michelle.

My name is Alice.

I'm 30 years old and I've been in a relationship for about six years.

I desperately want to have children and I know that I want to be a mom.

However, my boyfriend doesn't feel ready and doesn't think he will ever want kids, but he's not totally sure.

We are very much in love and do see a future together, but I just can't imagine a life without children.

And I feel like I need to know soon whether or not that's in the cards for us so I can move on if I need to.

So my question is, have you ever seen a man change his mind about wanting kids in his 30s?

And if so, what prompted it?

And if we do decide to break up and I re-enter the dating scene, what important questions should I be asking potential suitors to avoid spending another six years in a relationship where our visions are not aligned?

Thank you.

So yeah, this

speaks to you, doesn't it?

It speaks to me.

It speaks to 25-year-old me.

It does.

Really?

So these were, you know, and I get these kind of questions from my young staff, my mentees, you know, at that age.

And a lot of women are struggling with the finding a mate, finding a good mate, dealing with the biological time clock,

thinking about freezing eggs just

feels more fraught than it maybe even was for me when I was that age.

But I want to hear a bit of your journey around this, this question.

So this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs.

Obama, but I'm going to tell you this

because it applies to this person's situation.

When I was 25,

I happened to be dating.

Don't judge me, Mrs.

Obama.

Okay.

Let's hear it.

Okay.

You promised.

I don't know.

I can't promise right now.

No, it's a safe space.

It's a space.

You have two daughters.

I'm sure they brought you some

stuff.

Oh, please.

And you've had to keep this.

And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that.

Okay.

Just keep that between us.

Let's just just say this is one of those things okay this is one of those things so when i was 25

i found myself in love with a 50 year old man okay all right and this 50 year old man already had children

and at the time

you know i really wasn't thinking about children yeah

and we were having a great time You know, really wasn't worried about the future.

But the deeper we got into the relationship, it came up that he didn't want to have children.

How long were you dating before you?

It came up pretty early on, I would say.

And

when he said he didn't want to have kids, I kind of heard what she heard, which is like, well, maybe there's still a chance, right?

You know, I think when we're young, we think that we can.

maybe change people.

We think that maybe we could inspire a change, right?

Like love conquers all and love, but you know, there are some practicalities in life that you do have to consider.

And one of the most important things that my mom has ever told me that Maya Angelou has said is that when somebody shows you who they are,

in this case, tells you who they are,

believe them the first time.

That's right.

And this applies in this situation.

If this man has said to you, I love you, but I don't want to have kids.

And if you know deep down that that is something you really, really want,

you have to

know that and keep it moving.

You got to, unfortunately, you might have to wrap things up.

How long were you in the relationship before you kind of thought

a year?

Okay, well, see, that's truthfully at 25 or 30, you know,

young women are still figuring themselves out, you know, and just to cut you a little bit of slack at 25, please,

you, you were a baby, Yeah.

You know, and you were still figuring out who you were.

And in our 20s, we are more malleable.

You know, we're, we're more open to possibilities.

And you're with an older man who makes you feel mature and you feel secure in it.

I mean, my question is not to you at 25, but it's to him at 50.

I have the same question now.

Looking back as a 37-year-old, I have the same question now.

Right now, I mean, because first of all, it's like a 50-year-old man is dating a child.

And that may feel fun and easy, right?

And in so many ways.

But my question to him is, why are you wasting her time?

And you know, you don't want to have kids, you know?

So

some of the burden is on the guy.

He's already been married, has had his kids, you know, so it takes two.

And at 25, you, you learned an important lesson.

I want to tell Alice that sometimes the prayers that go unanswered

are the ones you will be the most grateful for down the line.

Because I will tell you now, looking back, whoo, thank you, Jesus, that I did not end up going down that path and hoping that this man would change his mind.

And, you know, God forbid he did.

One of the things he would say, and I got to give him credit, he did say, I do not want you to look up in your 30s and go, I gave the best years of my life

to this guy who did, when we don't want the same things going into the future.

And he said, he would say, you know, having kids is a young man's game.

And at 25, I didn't get that.

At 37, going on two kids with an energetic young man who was my age, who could keep up with me?

Oh, I get it now.

That's right.

It is, it is something that you have to have the conviction.

And I think that, you know, in relationships, yes, you have to make compromises.

Yeah.

And yes, you will, you'll hear that a lot from married couples, but there are some things you do not compromise on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And kids is one of them.

If you do not have the conviction,

if you don't really, really desire that, you are better off not wasting another person's time.

and entering into that lifelong partnership.

Because if you can't support her fully in motherhood, leave her alone.

yeah there are many ways to live a full life um and you know we're raised as young women to think it's marriage it's kids in that order

and that's one thing we don't have control over you know you don't know if you're going to fall in love you you don't know if you're going to have find the right person you don't know how life is going to unfold um is that the truth and i find that

i i know some of my young mentees feel less than

because they haven't found somebody or they haven't had a child.

And it breaks my heart because these are beautiful, smart women who have amazing lives.

But because one piece of the puzzle isn't there, a piece that they've been told their whole lives they should want and have, it's almost like life has no purpose.

And one of the things I I want my daughters, I'm trying to deprogram them from that belief that there's a certain way to be a woman in this world.

Because I don't know what their future is going to hold.

So I don't talk about when you become a mother or when you get married.

I say, well, if you find somebody, if you choose that, if that's something you want for yourself.

but understand that you can have a beautiful life without all that.

Absolutely.

You You know, you are not less of a person

because somebody didn't choose you or you didn't find somebody.

This episode is brought to you by Theraflu.

We've partnered with Theraflu to spread awareness about the amazing work they're doing.

to fight for paid sick days for all workers in America.

Mish,

don't you remember when dad didn't feel comfortable taking paid sick days?

Well, I didn't realize he didn't feel comfortable.

And just to remind folks, our dad was a blue-collar worker.

He worked as a stationary fireman for the water filtration plant for the city of Chicago.

So he was a shift worker.

But I do, what I remember is that.

Our dad never, I can't remember him ever taking a sick day

or a day off other than his assigned vacation days.

Never.

And I didn't know why.

I just thought, you know, he just had a great work ethic, which I think he did.

Which he did, but he never, it seemed like he was either never sick, which we know now was impossible.

Oh, our father had multiple sclerosis.

So I would imagine there were days that he woke up and he probably felt tired.

He probably felt a level of exhaustion that came with the disease.

But he just pushed through.

He just really just fought through it and and didn't want to take any sick days.

Like too many folks in this country.

Right.

Yeah.

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Yes.

And especially for black women, you know, I mean, we can talk about how hard it is to be chosen in this day and age.

I love to talk about being the choosers, though.

I know.

I love it.

I do.

Well, let's talk about that.

Well, I think, I do think there's this narrative that you have to wait to be chosen and what it means to be chosen by a man.

And I think I had that, I call it the Carrie Bradshaw complex, you know, growing up with sex in the city as the kind of the waiting for Mr.

Big to show up.

And that was my Mr.

Big.

That was my black Mr.

Big.

And I'm so glad that.

In that stage of life, God did not give me what I thought I wanted and needed because what I got was what I truly deserve.

And I'll tell you, that breakup was the hardest breakup because it represented the, this like the breakup with the older guy.

The breakup with the older guy that I thought I wanted to do it all with was one of the hardest breakups for me because it was the disillusion of this constructed, concocted dream that had been fed to me that I embraced as like the only way to do it.

That's

what I'm yeah.

Right.

And it was like this idea that some man is going to come along and save me me and choose me and give me this life.

You go to New York,

you live your big, fabulous life, and then you got to find the guy with the, you know, the money bags, the guy with

all the things going on.

If you think, if you really stop, you're like, wait a minute.

And we call ourselves feminists.

Yeah.

And we're subscribing to this notion.

Yes.

So it took a lot of unlearning for me to realize that, hold on a minute, I can be that rich, successful man that I was told to to marry.

Yeah, great.

I could be that one.

And I can choose the kind of partner that is going to complement

my life, my dreams, and what I want, and vice versa.

What flipped that switch for you?

Was it the breakup?

Jonathan, the breakup

was the humbling,

but also of, I wouldn't just say humbling.

It was, it was.

a moment of empowerment because I decided to leave that relationship.

So what

stopped you from feeling defeated in that moment?

Because a lot of people, a lot of women will experience a breakup from Mr.

Big and they'll think it's me.

Because taking that power back in relationships and dating, a lot of us don't do that.

So what do you think

got you to

a better place?

It wasn't my first time at the rodeo.

Okay.

You know, I had had a couple of relationships before that that taught me

this really important lesson.

And I remember this is something that Oprah said: you walk at the whisper before it becomes a roar.

I had not done that in the relationship prior to dating this older man.

And I thought, the one thing I know for sure is that I will never wait for the roar again.

And so, one of the contracts that we made when we first came together, because at the, just so you know, just so you know, Mrs.

Obama, I did not know the man's age

when we started dating.

And he didn't know myself.

I'm not feeling him this way.

I know you.

You like my mama.

You like my mama.

My mom, my mom told me this summer and finally told me, she said, that was one of the hardest times of my life as a mother.

It was hard for her.

She said, to watch you go through that.

And I was like, mom, you acted like you were fine with it.

She was like.

That was an act.

Yeah.

Exactly what she said.

And if she had said something, you would have dated him for another two years.

That's what she said.

That was the, that, that was her expertise at work there.

And she guys were talking, you know, I could feel it.

I can feel it because I don't even know the dude and I'm mad at him.

Well, he's out of the picture.

Okay.

But just so we all are clear here, I did not know his age.

He didn't know my age until we were further down the line.

So we made a pact with each other and we said, he said, actually, can you let me know if you're ever not having fun,

if you're not happy anymore, will you let me be the first to know?

And that coupled with this idea that Oprah, Mrs.

Oprah Winfrey, has planted in my mind, it allowed me to do these self-check-ins.

And the deeper we got into the relationship and the more that I recognized that while I may not want to have a kid today,

I can't really envision my life without the experience of becoming a mom.

Yeah.

And when I do that, I

really, I want an enthusiastic partner

in that.

And

you don't want somebody that

somebody pull somebody kicking and screaming into parenthood i don't want that for myself and so i thought you know

this is one of those decisions i'm at a crossroads i can either take what he's willing to give me or i can cut him loose and allow for the possibility to get what i deserve good for you and so i packed up my clothes

And I left.

And you were living with him too.

I wasn't living.

I was just staying over there.

I was like, all right.

I had my own apartment.

I was an independent woman.

I was like, eh, no, no, no, no, no, I was climbing in my career.

By the way, I did not slow down in my career for this relationship.

I kept climbing.

And, you know, so I'm very proud of myself for that.

I've kept on my path, but I decided to leave that relationship to allow for the possibility that it gets better.

Yeah.

And do you know?

that I reunited with Jonathan,

this kid from church.

The church boy.

The church boy.

boy.

The good church boy.

The good old church.

You overlooked.

They looked right past Jonathan.

I sure did.

I sure did, Mrs.

Obama.

And now we met up.

He happened to be in town.

We met up.

And I just remember being like, where did he grow up?

Really?

Jonathan.

Wow.

I have always tried to tell, you know,

you can't tell your kids anything, but

there have been some guys in my daughter's lives that I've been like, don't don't sleep on him.

You know, that was like, you know,

the nice ones, right?

What is it about the nice ones that there's an age where you just want something bad?

Right.

You just want something

just wrong.

What is that?

I had that.

I had that syndrome.

But we got to go on our own journeys.

And, you know, I will say I'm so grateful for all the frogs I kissed

before meeting what truly is my version, not to be cliche and cheesy, but my version.

My real Mr.

Big.

My real Prince Charming.

And I will tell you right away, I felt at home.

Yeah.

I felt my nervous system was calm.

It was the opposite of what I felt in these other relationships, where it was like,

my heart is pounding.

It wasn't that.

It was this peace.

So say that again.

No, people in the back.

For the people in the back, because, well, to share my experience meeting Barack, right?

Yeah.

I want to hear,

there was frog kissing.

And to anybody out there, no, you're not a frog, but not the right person.

Right.

But when I met Barack, and I also think that dating is important.

Yeah.

You know, because you've got to try on some things to know what really fits.

Because you might not have been able to appreciate Jonathan had you not dated Mr.

Big.

Right.

So I dated some bigs.

You had some Mr.

Biggs?

Not old, rich people, but the version of the person who just wasn't right.

And I knew they weren't right.

But because I had those experiences when Barack showed up, and there was, as you described it, this sort of calm, right?

There wasn't this, there was just complete and total honesty and trust.

This was a man who knew what he wanted.

So there was none of the guessing games that I think we as women get used to playing and kind of enjoy it.

Yes.

Being with somebody where it's a total, I don't know if he likes me and maybe he'll call.

And

you know, we kind of sometimes get into that game and we mistake that game for love.

But it's a game and it's an uncomfortable game if we're honest with ourselves.

Does he really like me?

Did he call?

I don't know what that meant.

Nothing is straightforward.

Everything is ambiguous.

And I met somebody who was unambiguous and clear.

And that feeling was new, but it was the right feeling to look for.

You know, you shouldn't have to wonder about your goals and visions with the person that's right for you.

You should be able to have real clear conversations up front and say, this is who I am.

Take it or leave it.

Who are you?

You know, do you believe in marriage?

Do you want kids?

Let's not play a guessing game.

And I try to advise young women in my life not to play games in dating.

Ask the questions you need to know and don't be embarrassed by it.

Barack was that comfort zone for me.

And it was very clear very early that he was different.

And different is good.

You know, different is not about games because I didn't want to deal with somebody that I couldn't talk to, to that i couldn't trust that i didn't know what he thought that wasn't a good communicator yep and sometimes we look right over those people who are in front of us because we're we're drawn to the game yeah

you know you're preaching yeah yeah so did you two speak about these things early on your in your dating life did you ask do you want kids did you ask do you want to be married yeah yeah and actually brock when we first started dating would you know he was like well i'm not really sure if i believe in the institution of marriage oh he was one of those yeah and i was sort of like really you know well what's that for and i didn't you know it it wasn't consistent with you know who he was but he would poke at that right yeah but he was also the person who asked me out who said we should date.

I was very hesitant about dating because we worked at the same law firm.

I was a year, he's older than me, but I went to law school and was practicing.

Like he hates for me to say I was his mentor.

I was going to say, say it.

You were his boss.

I wasn't his boss because I wasn't senior enough to give him assignments, but I was sort of helping him adjust.

And I sort of thought, well, I shouldn't date.

the guy that I was assigned to help.

Right.

I thought that'd be tacky, especially we were two of a few black people in the firm.

Right.

We both went to Harvard.

It just felt a little cliche.

Yeah.

And I didn't want to be that associate.

Right.

Right.

But he was like, who cares?

We got to know each other for the first month of the summer.

And he was like, you're, you're cute.

You're smart.

You're funny.

Let's go on a date.

You know, I was like, no, we shouldn't go on a date.

That doesn't seem right.

And, but he was like, he knew what he wanted.

He knew what he wanted.

Right.

And he wasn't worried about the job or appearances.

He was like, this makes sense to me.

And you don't get that a lot.

That's romantic.

You know, or I know I didn't get that a lot from guys.

You, you know, same.

I mean, you, you're guessing for the first few months.

And I was like, well, why am I drawn to that and not drawn to the truth?

Right.

So I chose the truth with Barack.

I chose to be with somebody who came to me on clear terms.

And so as a result, that's how our relationship started.

We were already friends.

So we could have these conversations.

And I knew he didn't mean the thing about marriage, but his proposal, which I didn't know was coming, goaded me into this argument about marriage.

So Brock had studied and taken the bar.

And we had been dating for all through his law school year.

So it was about two years.

So he took me out to a nice dinner, our favorite fancy restaurant in Chicago under the guise of celebrating that he finished the bar.

Little did I know that he had asked my parents, had gotten a ring.

And so we're sitting at dinner.

I'm thinking that it's a regular date.

Midway through the entree, he starts talking about not believing in marriage again.

And I was like, don't tell me that's how he went in his proposal.

No.

So he was winding me up.

And of course, I, you know, I was just not feeling it.

So I just went off on him.

And I was like, this isn't going to last.

And if you don't believe in marriage, don't waste my time.

And, you know, and I don't understand.

And I wouldn't have kids out of wedlock.

You know,

we had had this conversation, but he was just winding me up, you know, and I think I was being wound up all through the entree.

What a way to get it.

And then we, then, and he was, he was not arguing back.

He was just sitting there with his finger on his temple, just letting me go.

And then the waiter brought this tray with a silver tray and opened it up.

And there was the ring.

And I was like, what?

You didn't just wind me up to, and he got down on one knee in the restaurant and asked me to marry him.

So

he loves to tell that story because he was like, that shut you up, didn't it?

I love it.

Let's give him a round of applause.

You know, I love that so much.

And I mean, so romantic.

And the the two of you are the, you guys are goals.

You know that.

Your marriage goals.

Well, that, but that's why I'm always like, we have trouble too.

Yeah.

Because even when you have hashtag couples goals, marriage is hard.

Yep.

And it takes work.

And I love him dearly.

And I want all couples to understand that, that marriage is work and it's work every day.

Being a parent is work.

As much as you want it,

you know, bringing children into the world, the ones you want it, you know, it'll be the hardest thing you will ever do because it's the most important thing that you will ever do.

And I don't want anybody to be blinded by that.

So that's why I talk honestly about not just the highs, but about the challenges.

Because I think people, young couples, give up too quickly when things get hard.

And it's like, this is hard.

This is a hard thing to do, melding two lives together, which is why you got to be real clear in your choice.

Yep.

You know?

Because even when they're the right committed man and you're aligned and you're in love,

all of it.

It's still hard.

That's right.

So why make it harder going into the relationship where you aren't on the same page about what you ultimately want?

That's exactly right.

So I'm curious, I want to ask you, because it sounds like you were the driver in getting the answers to those questions in the dating.

phase what gave you the confidence though to to to to really put that question to him and to be willing to walk away if he was not in alignment with you?

I think, like you, it was the other frogs, other relationships coming out going,

why did I let that happen?

Why didn't I say more?

Why didn't I, why wasn't I clearer?

That's why I believe in dating.

Yeah.

Because you need practice.

You know, you're going to get some stuff wrong.

You're going to, you need to grow up.

just trying some things on, you know, and it, and, and be okay with things failing.

Be okay with getting your heart broken because you need to know that you can recover from that too.

So I think that it was practice made perfect.

So I was a little more ready, a little more sure of myself.

Didn't have all the conversations.

So, you know, there's still things I look back on 30 years and I was like, did I agree?

Did I agree to something in this marriage that I wouldn't have when I was 30 that I've got to renegotiate?

And the answer is yes, because each decade we are learning something different.

So you're never going to get it perfect.

But I think knowing that this was a serious relationship and that this, that Barack was a serious person, I felt he left space for the questions.

He wasn't defensive about the questions.

And maybe that's.

That's another cue for folks like Alice.

You know, you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that you can't have really good, hard, honest conversations.

You don't have to get married to the person, but if you're dating, sleeping with somebody, if you're wasting your time with them

or investing your time with them, she said, wasting your time.

You know, then you should be with somebody that you can talk to.

And if they're making you feel like you're intrusive or needy, that's a sign.

I know that we lived together for a year before we got engaged.

And I told Barack, I said, it makes economic sense for us to live together, but just know that this isn't a forever thing.

I don't want this to slip into years and years of living together.

You know, so it's like, if you, if we're moving in together, then the next phase has got to be we're getting engaged and we're going to get married.

How did he respond to that?

He was like, yeah, it makes sense.

Makes sense, which is why goading me with that question was a little annoying on our engagement night.

Cause it was like, dude.

Yeah, we already covered this.

We covered this.

But no, we were in alignment.

Yeah.

And I knew that.

And so everything felt right.

I felt safe with him.

I felt like there wasn't anything that I couldn't talk to him about.

And that's how you're supposed to feel.

Yes.

And sometimes we have to ask ourselves as women and people, are we not asking the question?

Because we don't really want to know the answer.

We want to be in pretend land.

So I won't bring it up because the status quo feels okay.

It's comfortable.

So I will pretend like he didn't just tell me he didn't want kids.

Like you said, when they tell you who they are, believe them.

The first time.

Yeah.

And don't be afraid of the question.

And I want young women in particular.

to practice this part of their voice in relationships.

To just practice asking for what you want and being clear, but then you got to be okay with not getting the answer that you want.

And I'd rather practice that feeling, right?

Yep.

You'll survive it.

Yep.

No, it's okay to hear no.

It's okay to hear, I don't love you like that.

It's okay to hear we don't believe in the same things or I think you're cute, but I don't want to get married.

Know it early.

Yes.

Figure it out sooner.

You know, press, press it and don't feel like it makes you look desperate.

All it is is you just want clarity.

It's okay to want clarity.

And that's different from being desperate.

Yes.

There's nothing wrong with clarity.

Do not live your life in a fog.

That's what I would tell Alice.

You know, when you're 30 years old and you want things to happen, then don't waste your time with people.

And just ask the question.

It's like, who are you?

What do you want?

What do you want out of life?

Why do you, why don't you want kids?

Let's have those conversations sooner rather than later.

Now, that doesn't mean having them on the first date.

Right.

Right.

You know, that might be a little too soon.

But once you get to the point where you think you want to spend time with somebody, they should be able to handle these questions, I believe.

Absolutely.

One thing that we haven't touched on that I think is embedded in Alice's question is this idea that there's an expiration date on her value as a woman and as a part part prospective partner.

She's 30.

She's realizing, okay, I wasted six years with this one.

And I think that comes with this pressure to close the deal.

Yeah.

Because society has told us that there is an expiration date on our value and that at some point men aren't going to want us and they're going to go for the 25-year-old girl when they're 50.

And listen, that's a phenomenon.

We can't ignore that.

That's right.

But that doesn't have to define your value.

And Alice has made the decision for herself that she wants to be a mother.

So free, free yourselves to get what you really want out of life.

And I truly believe that's true love.

Yeah.

That is true love.

That is setting someone free to live the life that they really, really want.

There's no higher love than that.

And just because it comes to an end naturally doesn't mean that that time wasn't.

well spent and that you didn't learn and grow during that time.

And it doesn't mean that it's a failure.

And live.

Yeah.

Don't wait on life to come to you.

Yeah.

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I would tell Alice, move on from this guy.

Yeah.

And don't just jump into the next thing.

Work on you.

Yep.

Work on your dreams, your goals your aspirations build your life yes independently use this time to make sure you're whole yes you know um

and understand yourself because that's i think why finding love later can be better because you know more about who you are that part so at 30 Alice has got a lot of time to keep growing

and let love find you

as you grow.

And if it doesn't, then you've just grown.

You know, you're still at a good place.

Yes.

You know, you might not have, love might not have found you, but you didn't stop your life waiting for it.

Yep.

I will tell you, my mom has said to me from the time I was a little girl, a healthy relationship takes two whole people who got to be whole on their own.

And that is something that was like etched into my brain so, so early on that when I finally was mature enough after the delusion, I lived in the, one thing I want to admit to right here is that I did live in that delusion for a little bit where I heard the answer, but I was a little bit like, yeah,

yeah, you all have done that in our lives.

So it's okay of Mrs.

Obama.

You're not judging me?

No, not at all.

Okay.

Because I can, I, I can see those moments in myself where I was like, I'm going to make him love me.

And, you know, so we all go through that.

Yeah.

That's why you keep moving through it.

Yeah.

But after that part, after the delusional chapter,

then I moved into this part where I really did fall in love with myself before I fell in love with Jonathan in that in-between time.

That in-between time is truly what I think set me up for a lifelong relationship.

I think before that point, I would, I would fold into the relationship.

That part.

Yeah.

You know, and I would become what was good for the relationship.

But this time that I spent in between Mr.

Big and my actual husband,

I cut all my hair off.

It was so cliche.

I chopped it all off.

I decided I'm going to live on my own for the first time.

I'm going to make dinner for myself every night.

I signed up for a half marathon.

I ran the half, the Brooklyn half.

Wow.

And along that.

timeframe, Jonathan came around.

And at that point, I was like, you know, I was like, I'm not really rushing into this because I'm liking this.

I'm doing me right now.

And I'm tired of being in these, being a serial monogamous.

And it's almost like I've had these mini marriages.

And I was like, I just want to be, I want to be married to me.

And Jonathan had to catch up with you.

And you know who was waiting for me at the end of the finish line at that half marathon?

Yeah.

With Gatorade and

some oranges.

It was Jonathan.

And he waited for me.

And he said, don't worry, I'll be here.

And it's that type of partner that's like so that knows it's you that will wait for you that will show up for you that feels like home like that's the guy that you marry ultimately so i want that i want that for

i want that for alice i want that for her it's okay six years with someone you're 30 that's fine that's okay but like what do you want out of life make space for that Alice is wondering whether there are men who change their minds.

I mean, yeah, people change their minds in life for sure.

You know, I

definitely know people who thought they'd never get married or thought they didn't want to have kids.

So it is possible, you know, if he's saying no, yeah, he can change his mind, but do you really want to wait?

Right.

How long are you willing to wait?

Are you willing to wait to see if he would change his mind?

I'm just afraid for her for what that question means.

It's like she's wanting to wait.

She's hoping.

If she were my daughter, I would go,

mm-hmm, really?

Why don't you date?

Why don't you just keep the door open?

You know, if you thought about that, I'd probably ask a question like that.

So I don't know.

What do you think?

I, have I ever seen a man change his mind about

having children?

I don't think that I have.

I don't think that I have.

I wasn't willing to wait around and see.

Let me put that in

my own situation.

One of the things I say to people as they're thinking about picking a mate,

you got to think about like a partner as a member of your basketball team.

Ooh, I like that.

You know, it's like, if you were picking players to play on a team, you wouldn't just pick a shooter.

Everybody has to be able to do it all.

Each person in a couple has to be able and willing to do it all.

So you don't want to marry a man who's like, I don't cook.

It's like, well,

what happens if I can't cook?

Right.

You know, how are we going to survive?

Yeah, you just don't do laundry.

Life is so unpredictable and complicated.

And then add in kids, right?

If you've married to a man that doesn't do house chores and you've had given birth and you've had a cesarean and you can't be on your on your feet or heaven forbid you have a difficult pregnancy and you come home and he can't do anything.

He's never been grocery shopping, you know, or if you're the woman and you can't balance the checkbook because you've left that to him.

Life is too complicated for two partners not to be real equals in it, you know, because you just don't know what's going to come.

You can make decisions throughout the marriage of who's doing what, but everybody's got to be able to do everything, especially when kids are involved.

Amen.

And so that, you know, you got to look for a whole person and you've got to be a whole person.

You know, and I want men to hear this and I want mothers raising men to hear this too.

teach these men how to be whole you know do not come into a relationship talking about what you aren't going to do what you don't believe in and men and women's roles.

I mean, if it works out for you, great.

But then don't let life happen to you.

Right.

Because then what?

Right.

You've never learned how to do anything other than the thing that a man is supposed to do.

I wouldn't want that dude.

I'm curious with

you have two daughters who get this.

who've gotten this their whole lives.

Like,

how have you seen this advice play out in your, in your child's relationships?

And have you been able to kind of see the fruits of all of your wisdom

with them?

I think like your mother, right?

You don't know whether they're actually listening to you.

You know, we're listening.

I want to tell you.

We're listening.

I'm learning that now because they're now, they're 26 and 23, right?

And this is the age where I can see, oh, you were listening.

Yeah.

I lecture, I talk, we talk, we talk.

That's all I've been doing with these girls, talking and talking honestly,

making sure that they feel like they can ask me anything, which means, like your mother, you got to learn to have that poker face.

Because if you get, if, if, if you get too involved,

then they don't come back.

Yeah.

So I spend a lot of time, especially when they went away to college and living on their own conversations or this, really?

Whoa,

wow tell me more right

it's like they're like cats don't hold them too tight don't squeeze them they'll never come back um i try not to be too judgmental you know i try not to be too heavy-handed but i i but i talk to them in the way that i'm talking to you i share the mistakes that I made.

I share the things that work in our marriage without getting them too involved.

right?

Just making sure they're seeing the good, the bad, they know that I'm human, they hear my stories, so they feel like they can tell me theirs.

And the real learning comes in these kind of conversations, right?

Choices that they're making so far are ones that I'm like, okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Not always perfect, but watching them turn the corner and understanding their worth.

So I just want my girls to be open

and to use their voice in relationships.

It is scary to let your kids make their own choices and to suffer their own consequences, you know, and when you know better.

Especially when you know better.

Oh my gosh, it's just like I've done this.

You know, I'm raising my hand in the room.

It's like, I know the answer, you guys.

Look at me, pick me.

I can tell you this.

I really do know.

And, you know, they, they have have to they have to hit the wall oh you know i wouldn't be the mom that i am if i didn't have the kind of mom that i had and it sounds like you guys are definitely playing from the same mom playbook um but you're doing good you're doing good well i think that if we could sum up our advice to alice we've had a full-throated conversation i i think uh what would you if you had to give three pieces of advice that summed up what you think Alice should be thinking about.

What would What would you tell her?

Well, I'm going to take a page out of your book and I'm going to use an analogy that I just read yesterday that was about writing a book.

So basically, making hard decisions about your life is kind of like driving a car in the dark with headlights on.

You can only see but so far in front of you.

Right?

Like the light only shines just so much in front of you.

And you can make the whole trip by just making the best decisions based on what you can see right in front of you.

You don't need to be able to see the whole road,

even when the rest is dark.

You can see this much.

And so, I would say make the best decision for your life based on what you can see from where you're sitting right now.

And if you can see that this man doesn't want what you want

in the long run,

it's okay to pivot.

And I think your life is going to be full of beautiful pivots.

You don't have to stay on the road that you're on just because you traveled it this far.

You can make a left turn and you don't have to be a ride or die.

You don't got to die.

Okay.

Just to ride.

You can say, I've

been live.

I don't know.

I want to ride.

I don't want to die.

What's the point of being a ride or die?

Because I don't actually want to die.

So the ride has been nice right to this point sir i'm getting off right and this is where you can let yourself out yeah and i'm going that way yeah and i think just allow yourself and i know it's so scary when you can't see what's ahead and you're like does this mean i'm going to be alone forever will i ever find somebody that loves me this much we've invested so much time like i overstand all of that because i have lived it multiple times

But

you got to just keep making the best decisions based on what's right in front of you and trust that what is in the dark will come to the light and it could be even more beautiful than you could ever imagine.

So that would be my closing statement.

I love that.

And your mom is going to hear this podcast conversation and you know what she's going to say.

What is she going to, she's going to say, oh, Lord.

No, she told your business to the whole world and to Mrs.

Obama.

She is going to say, wow, you know, I knew, I knew Lainey had it in her, you know, she was listening all this time, you know, and that's the beauty of parenthood.

That's some of the proudest moments you'll have as a parent.

And for Alice, if motherhood is something that she wants, then I wouldn't give it up.

I wouldn't give up

that dream.

Not at 30, you know.

I want Alice to know she's young.

There is time.

People are becoming mothers later in life.

I would encourage her to look at freezing her eggs.

Just give herself some time, but do not settle.

Do not try to force somebody into a life that isn't for them because marriage and family is hard enough.

So you want to do it with somebody who wants what you want as much as you want it.

And you shouldn't have to talk somebody into your dream.

Ask for what you want.

Find out the information you need.

Don't allow game playing to take over the dynamic of the relationship, especially as we get older.

We just don't have, ain't nobody got time for that.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

So find out what you need to know.

And if you're with the right person, those questions won't be intimidating.

And if they are, that's a sign that that person's not for you.

If they can't answer some basic questions, if you can't have some good conversations about life and expectations, then that's a cue that just date them.

Don't marry them.

Yeah.

You know, but Elaine, thank you so much for this was, this filled me up.

I'm really proud of the woman that you have become.

So thank you for taking the time.

Thank you for the joy of being able to share some of these stories with you.

And yeah, I just feel so blessed by this conversation.

My heart is so full.

You got me out here about to cry.

I don't know if it's the hormones,

but thank you.

This was such a beautiful conversation.

I'd love to get you back.

Thank you so much.