Let’s Talk About Hair

Speaker 1 Dude, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating. Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 1 You know, this gown, you know, somebody put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this good is helping our situation. Your situation, it's only value-added, dude.

Speaker 1 It's only value-added.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Ribian.

Speaker 1 Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO. The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now.

Speaker 1 I'm Julie Wilson, award-winning journalist and beauty editor-at-large at Cosmopolitan, and it's my pleasure to be here with Yenay Demtu, renowned beauty expert, founder, and owner of Aesthetics Salon in Arlington, Virginia, and longtime stylist to Mrs.

Speaker 1 Obama. And Marseille Martin, award-winning actor, producer, and founder of Genius Productions.

Speaker 1 And of course, the one, the only Michelle Obama. Welcome, everyone.
All right. I need to know what your hair journey was.

Speaker 1 What was it like growing up in the south side of Chicago, being a beautiful little black girl? What were some of your earliest hair memories? Ugh,

Speaker 1 sadly, it was combative.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 my mother admittedly grew up saying that she was not a hair mom. You know, she was

Speaker 1 one of seven

Speaker 1 kids, two little brothers, a lot of girls, but I don't think my mom wasn't a girly girl in that way. Right.
So I think she was intimidated by. hair and by my hair, right? Because I had a lot of it.

Speaker 1 It was thick. It was all over the place.

Speaker 1 And so wash day for her felt like a battle. Right.

Speaker 1 And that's what it was. It was wash day.
As I describe in the book, it was like Sundays were over.

Speaker 1 You know, I felt imprisoned by my hair when I was a little girl because we didn't have the facilities. You know, you got your hair washed on the cold for mica kitchen sink.
Right.

Speaker 1 That was annoying. You know, the back of your head hurt because you're leaning over it and then the water is trickling out of a faucet.
And sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 one thing I never realized back then, we weren't using the right hair care products for us because there were like only you, you got what you got at the grocery store or at the drugstore.

Speaker 1 There wasn't an abundance. There wasn't, you know, the soft sheen line hadn't really fully come out.
So she was using Wella balsam on my hair. Wow.

Speaker 1 And as Yanae now knows, I didn't even realize that that product stripped all the oils out of our hair. It wasn't designed for black hair.

Speaker 1 So, you know, you she'd wash it twice, and then the process of detangling that hair that without you tender conditioning, I wasn't by the time I, you know, you, I couldn't be right, right, right.

Speaker 1 Um, so I think I was pretty good for a kid, but still, it, it took, it took what felt like hours to comb through all my hair.

Speaker 1 And then the process of straightening, you know, it's like the hot comb on the stove.

Speaker 1 You know, talk about heat on hair with a little oil. It was that the yellow oil.
The ultrasine. Ultra sheen oil.
I still remember it because I think maybe those were the only products we had.

Speaker 1 We had the ultra sheen.

Speaker 1 I feel like this is like really like something we all have in common. Like hair is such a shared experience for black girls.
Like, do you guys remember like getting your hair pressed? Like at home?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But that wasn't, it was funny enough.

Speaker 2 My mom tried to stray away from getting my hair straightened as much as possible because every time I'd get it pressed when I was younger, it turned out horribly because I would either go to school and it would look crazy or I would do something.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 Funny story.

Speaker 2 Cause I always, I always used to get like curling rods.

Speaker 2 Like she used to just rod curl my hair and then I'd wake up and then take the rods out and it just being like a, that was, that was my principal hairstyle.

Speaker 2 So when I got it pressed with the hot comb and in the kitchen. I used to think I was like the little white girls in my class with her hair straight.

Speaker 2 And I remember every every lunch before recess, they would go into the bathroom and they would get a cup of water and straighten their hair like this.

Speaker 1 And I'd be like, Oh, you know, they'll do this. Not understanding what reversion

Speaker 1 girl.

Speaker 1 I did it with them, thinking that we Kikien. Like, ha ha, yeah, yeah.
And they're like, We like your hair. I'm like, Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 And then it's Texas heat, too. So I'm talking to one of my other friends.
They're like, Your hair. I'm like, What? I'm on the top of the stairs, the slide.
I'm like, What are you talking about?

Speaker 1 It's like,

Speaker 1 I'm like, I know.

Speaker 1 Before before our very actions, it was like, my mom said, girl, what happened? What were you thinking? Yeah, and that was the thing about once you got your hair pressed, you were captive. You know,

Speaker 1 and I think that that, you know, goes a long way. And I was a tomboy.
I loved playing sports. I was out there sweating.
I used to want to be, and I liked an afro.

Speaker 1 One of my favorite, I loved baseball. I was played softball when I was little.
One of my heroes was Jose Cardinal on the Chicago Cubs. And I don't, he was

Speaker 1 black

Speaker 1 first baseman, and he had this huge afro that he would put his cap on and then pick it out. And so the hair was just framing the hat.

Speaker 1 And that's how I love to wear my hair with the cap on and have it picked out at bat. You know, so I wanted to be active.

Speaker 1 But when you get your hair pressed, you know, mom's like, don't touch your hair. Don't

Speaker 1 walk around like this right hope it doesn't rain and it's not just pressed and don't think about swimming even curls like ponytails right on sundays i only got my hair pressed for special occasions but regularly my mother sundays you lay out you sit between her legs you try to touch your head she hits you with the comb right put your hair in pigtails and just even braids or to twist it was such a thing and it was an all-day experience yeah absolutely and it was one of those things my brother freely could run around He could play in the neighborhood.

Speaker 1 He could do whatever it is that he wanted. But on Sundays, I had to sit and get my hair done.
And my mom, similar to Mrs. Robinson, my mother only went to this beauty salon.

Speaker 1 She did not, she never took care of her own hair. So trying to do my hair, it wasn't even if I was tenderheaded.
It just, she wasn't really good at it

Speaker 1 either. So it was just kind of like, this is painful.
Yeah. And it doesn't look good at the end,

Speaker 1 but it's just what you do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 My father, funny story, my father actually pressed me and my sister's hair wow like he grew up with three sisters in north carolina okay and had like the hot comb on the stove the whole nine yards and like

Speaker 1 just captive audience with his girls like pressing our hair like grease on the back of his hand

Speaker 1 like so interesting i don't think my father ever touched my hair i can't think of a moment. It's a very

Speaker 1 weekly experience. And a bond, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sitting in, you know, between the legs, getting your hair braided, that sort of thing. And I feel like we probably all got burnt on the forehead at some point, right?

Speaker 2 On the back of my neck, oh, yeah,

Speaker 2 trying to get in my kitchen, right? Like the back of my neck from my great-grandpa.

Speaker 1 It was always the worst when it was on your forehead, though. Oh, yeah, like I can't cover that.

Speaker 1 Or you would get like, I love that picture of you when you're little with like your ponytails and that bang, that barrel. Yeah, bang

Speaker 1 from that sponge roller. From that sponge roller,

Speaker 1 well, I eventually, because my mother was so bad at doing my hair, I started going to Miss Phillips' little salon in her basement across the alley because my mother gave up so soon.

Speaker 1 So here I am, six years old, probably

Speaker 1 going across the alley with my little money to Miss Phillips' basement, you know, the kind of basement salon that I think is almost in every black

Speaker 1 neighborhood. Still,

Speaker 1 still.

Speaker 1 You have a salon. We're going to talk about that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And she could press my hair faster, faster get it straighter yep and then she would do this thing where she would make a bang and she put this kind of uh hair stick that you put on your forehead that would hold the bang on your forehead i don't know if you like a wax stick yeah i know

Speaker 1 it wasn't a wax stick i remember it it felt uh it felt like a hair glue of some sort but she probably put it on my forehead and pressed it down so that the bang would stick to my head and i always thought that was kind of cool

Speaker 1 It's like almost like an edge, edge control.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking about Spritz and like Pump It Up back in the day. So it's probably like a Brynner Brothers or Dudley's product.
Yeah. That's cool.
What up?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I was like, yeah, she was doing Arthur Kraft.
Like she was.

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 1 Oregon. Very innovative.

Speaker 1 Very innovative. We're so innovative.
Like our.

Speaker 1 But I want to talk about the salon of it all, right? Like going to the salon. I mean, that's such an experience.

Speaker 1 The other women there what are they getting their hair done what are they talking about I mean you own a salon do you have that level of community and a village sense with absolutely with your customers absolutely you know when we opened up aesthetics in 2017 one of the things that I realized living in the DMV was that I grew up in Orange County going to the salon, the salon experience, not salon suites, no shade to salon suites, but being in a communal environment.

Speaker 1 It's a place where we organize. It's a place where we build community.
And so in the DMV, I didn't feel like that really existed.

Speaker 1 And so when we opened up aesthetics, I was very adamant about building a space where women of color can come that are in the professional workplace that aren't there all day, but they still get that salon feel.

Speaker 1 Like you still, it's like, oh, there's, you know.

Speaker 1 Michelle, that's, she has a standing appointment on Friday or, you know, you're not going to have somebody coming in with the bootlegs or like selling a food plate, but you still are getting that camaraderie and you're still getting hair care.

Speaker 1 And I think now more than ever, you don't see hair care take place in the salon because everyone is doing quick trends. You know, people are slapping on a wig.
Cool, that's great.

Speaker 1 That serves a purpose, but how are we treating our hair underneath? And so it was really extremely important to me to build a space in a community where that existed.

Speaker 1 Were you up in the salon when you were young?

Speaker 2 I was. I was up in the salon.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, I started blackish when I was nine. So that was a whole new world.

Speaker 2 That was kind of my version of the salon in a sense, you know, And I was with people that I worked with every day. It'd be whether it was 7 a.m.

Speaker 2 or 7 p.m., like that's where we were just constantly getting our hair changed for different scenes. And that was my first time really getting to explore the amount of styles.

Speaker 2 that can be with for my hair, you know?

Speaker 2 Cause I think growing up in Dallas, it was really only what I was telling y'all, like the rod set with the curls or, you know, my terrible press, press, you know, get my hair straightened. Right.

Speaker 2 um but working with a roxy lindsey which is

Speaker 1 absolutely amazing so talented

Speaker 2 and so unique and a perfectionist and really like transforms your hair into something different that you would have never thought in a million years like oh i didn't even know it could look like this so i growing up with her it was it was really really special to be able to see that and um

Speaker 2 made me learn more about it you know because both both my mom and my little sister have different hair textures that I would always,

Speaker 2 in a way, feel

Speaker 2 interesting about myself of like, hmm, there's two different textures, but like theirs is very fine, really thin, can be in a ponytail like in 20 seconds. Mine is super thick in the middle.

Speaker 1 Like, I can't even get it. You know, I have to use a hair clip.

Speaker 2 And it just was really different.

Speaker 2 And especially growing up, I'm blackish, you know, with Yara and Tracy.

Speaker 1 They have two different hair textures than I do. So

Speaker 2 I needed that person to help me figure out what was for me

Speaker 2 to where I constantly didn't have to question, you know, if my hair

Speaker 1 even told a story, you know, but I have to say, watching it, and I'm sure you guys would agree, it was so beautiful, one, seeing a black family like that, you know.

Speaker 1 for us to have that storytelling beyond the Cosby's and like that sort of thing, but also the hair inspiration, right?

Speaker 1 Between you, Yara, and Tracy, like I would just be like, oh, I want to do that. And look at that.

Speaker 1 I wish I had you when the girls were little because I used to run out of styles. I just

Speaker 1 creatively, I'm like, okay, one poof, two poofs, you know. But then I'd see

Speaker 1 your character and I'd be like, ah, I could have tried that. Yeah.
Yeah. Such cute stuff.
Well, it's just, it's just amazing how we don't see a lot of

Speaker 1 inspiration for our type of hair on television. And I think that that was a big part of that, a part of

Speaker 1 what kind of

Speaker 1 got me off on the wrong track in terms of loving my hair. Yeah.
Was because when we were growing up, we had no images. There were no images

Speaker 1 of black hair, black characters, let alone black children.

Speaker 1 You know, we grew up watching the Brady Bunch. It was Marsha and Jan, and it was the Partridge family.
And it was, I think, the closest young person that I saw was was Janet Jackson.

Speaker 1 And she was still a baby, you know, so it was a Jackson five, but Janet Jackson wasn't a part of the sort of American zeitgeist in the same way.

Speaker 1 So the notion that we grow up playing with Malibu Barbie and who wants the Chrissy doll with the curly hair because you're always trying to.

Speaker 1 fix the hair you want the hair to flow yeah and i think that a lot of women don't women white women don't understand how problematic it is for young black girls not to see themselves in popular culture and uh not to pay give respect and to show examples of our beauty yes uh and that we are beautiful right like how you have to see it and if for it to be celebrated in the world to say wow yeah it's being celebrated of course i'm beautiful but if you don't see that so was your mother who was who was telling you you were beautiful you know i we didn't didn't talk about beauty in my household, you know, I mean, it wasn't, you know, my parents were more focused on how smart you were and grades.

Speaker 1 Um, I don't know whether that was intentional or not, but I don't remember us sitting around focusing on looks, period, right? Yeah. Um,

Speaker 1 so I,

Speaker 1 it probably wasn't until I was maybe in high school that I started thinking about taking control over my look.

Speaker 1 And I think that had to do with the fact that

Speaker 1 I went to a neighborhood public school. So, you know, from K through eight, I was in the neighborhood.
And then I got into a magnet high school.

Speaker 1 And I drove across the city, and it was a school that attracted kids from all over the city.

Speaker 1 So it was the first time I was around all kinds of kids, all kinds of racists, all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds of black people. All right.
So

Speaker 1 Joe Dudley was in my high school class,

Speaker 1 the son of Dudley. And they were wealthy people.
You know, there were people, young kids like me who were going downtown to get their hair done.

Speaker 1 They were, we were, we had to commute through downtown Chicago. So I started going into the department stores there.

Speaker 1 And I started to see, oh, like there are black girls that are, that do have a lot of variety. They are doing different things with their hair.

Speaker 1 I think it was high school when I started discovering the possibility of style in clothing and in hair because I was around a lot more people. And you got creative.
You started doing it.

Speaker 1 And I started exploring. I started looking for my own hairdressers.
You know, I started getting recommendations. I would see somebody and go, oh, girl, your blowout looks nice.
Where do you go? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I would take my little babysitting money and I go down. And that's where I found my first hair, my hair salon community was in high school.
When you talk about that salon, it was Ronnie Flowers.

Speaker 1 The salon was Van Cleef.

Speaker 1 I started going to him in my senior year in high school and he did my hair from senior year in high school until I went to the White House. Wow.
That relationship was that close. That is beautiful.

Speaker 1 And that's what we're talking about, that salon relationship.

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Speaker 1 But I love Michelle how you were saying in high school, you kind of realized like, I always love asking the question, when did you know black was beautiful?

Speaker 1 And like you kind of having that realization then, what about you, Marce and Yanae? Like, when did you know black was beautiful?

Speaker 2 Oh, when did I know black was beautiful? I mean,

Speaker 2 I think just starting in my household, like I grew up with,

Speaker 2 of course, my parents were around, but also

Speaker 2 my great-grandma lived with us.

Speaker 2 So basically, like my mom's mom and then my mom's mom's mom all lived in the same house.

Speaker 1 Intergenerational households. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 And then my dad's mom also lived in our house.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 So it was just full of grandparents. That were loving on you.
That was just loving on me.

Speaker 2 And funny enough, we didn't talk about beauty too much either, but it was more like if I'd come home from school and I'd be like, this person said this to me, my mom would be like, F them, you're gorgeous.

Speaker 1 And I'd be like, oh, okay. You know, okay, that's cool.

Speaker 2 But I especially learned from my mom's mom, who I called my booba. She had a range of wigs and a range of nail polish.
And even my great-grandma collected purses and they just always were about self.

Speaker 1 Always first.

Speaker 2 And then it would be like, like, you know, midday, they would cater to everybody, you know, start cooking, playing music, you know, making sure I was okay and my puppy at the time.

Speaker 2 And it was really just, it was sweet when I just started observing more, you know, and that's where I learned just.

Speaker 2 that black was beautiful and back then and now and seeing the transition into, you know, when I was young growing up in Dallas with them.

Speaker 2 And then now them being my, my angels up above and kind of guiding through those situations of like, wow, my booba would have said this at the time.

Speaker 2 Or if someone, you know, told me this, like, I would remember everything that they said to me. So

Speaker 2 that's definitely the first time I learned.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Yeah.
I love that. What about you, Yanae? High school.
I think high school is probably like the pivotal moment. I was a cheerleader,

Speaker 1 similar to Marseille. All the girls wanted to put water on their hair.
And I knew, I knew. I was like, you were like, my hair cannot.

Speaker 2 See, I didn't know.

Speaker 1 I was like, I say, my hair can't fail because I'm

Speaker 1 not. Right.
I say, they laugh and I'm going to laugh too. They're like, you're not going to make your hair crinkly.
We're just going to put some water on it.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I can't put, I can't put water on it. Right.
And they're like, why? And I was like, because my hair won't do what your hair does.

Speaker 1 And coming home, again, my, my mother was just kind of like, was very, my parents were very protective. We grew up in Orange County, predominantly white, an Asian neighborhood.

Speaker 1 I was the only black in a lot of environments. And so my parents were very protective of like, you are fine, you're worthy.
But on the weekends, we spent all of our time in LA.

Speaker 1 So it was two different worlds that I would see. I would be in Orange County and I would live in that world.
And then I would go to LA and I would be around like predominantly black neighborhoods.

Speaker 1 So it was two different contrasts. And so I got to see both sides.
And I felt more comfortable when I was around more black folks than I was at school.

Speaker 1 Because at school, school, it was just kind of like the way that I speak and like my hair is different and how I present. And then I'm first generation Ethiopian American.
I have a funny name.

Speaker 1 There was just so many, it was, it was layered for me. So

Speaker 1 high school is when my parents really started to be like, you're beautiful, you're fine. Like I was, I, I was a cheerleader.
I ran for homecoming. princess.

Speaker 1 It was then that I was like, the, the self-esteem and the confidence was being instilled in me. And it was like, you're perfectly fine the way that you are.

Speaker 1 And the pride of being like a black woman in that space. Yes.
Because in the beginning, you're ashamed. You're kind of like, I'm different.
You attract. You don't want to say too much.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then you realize like, nope, I'm going to say what I want. Right.
Yeah. But Michelle, like going from the south side of Chicago to Princeton,

Speaker 1 what was that transition like? Because that's got to be a lot.

Speaker 1 You're now, you were in high school, you're learning that black is beautiful, that you're, you're experimenting with your hair and doing all the things. So what was the Princeton experience like?

Speaker 1 You know, it's interesting

Speaker 1 because, and I enjoyed my Princeton experience. I had great education.
I made great friends. I think one of the things that saved me was that I wasn't curious about assimilating.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 What I had learned in high school and growing up on the south side of Chicago and growing up in a big extended family is that

Speaker 1 I need to go where I'm loved and have community.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Now, when it came to hair,

Speaker 1 well, that was another story because I'm in Princeton, New Jersey. And the first we get our hair done.
What you do is you

Speaker 1 set down foot and you start finding all the black girls. Where do you get your hair done? Where do you get your hair done?

Speaker 1 And there were some girls that were sophisticated enough that by then I had a relaxer way too soon, but I gave up on the pressing comb very early. And my mother was happy to see it go.

Speaker 1 By then, I was in a relaxer. So, how do you get your touch-ups?

Speaker 1 You know, and for those of you who don't know about relaxers from black people, you know, it's a process of chemically straightening, straightening your hair.

Speaker 1 And that means as your hair grows out in its curly style, you need to continue to straighten that new growth that comes in, which is every six-week process. And now here I am, a freshman in college.

Speaker 1 So there was a department store called Bambergers and a mall near Trenton. There was a hair salon there.
I went there for the first year.

Speaker 1 And it was just another hassle. Right.
Right.

Speaker 1 Because in addition to going to classes and trying to have a life and go to a party, I had to make my hair appointments and go off campus and get on a bus and go to the mall. I care.
Really?

Speaker 1 It just, it's just like, oh, geez. Always a thought.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I discovered I met. my DC friends, a lot of girlfriends from D.C.
So now I'm out. I'm not just out of my neighborhood and in the city.
I'm in the, I'm on the East Coast.

Speaker 1 And I'm finding that there's a whole different attitude about hair for my girlfriends who live in DC because there were a ton of braiders in DC.

Speaker 1 And I, that's when I was like, oh, I could be getting my hair braided. Yeah.
So sophomore year, I visited one of my girlfriends,

Speaker 1 got my hair braided. Then I went back to my salon, found a braider, and I started wearing my hair braided in sophomore year.

Speaker 1 And a lot of that was because I just, I just needed, I needed to be efficient. I needed to be focusing on class and having fun and not worrying about getting touch-ups.

Speaker 1 That was the first time I felt not only beautiful in the braids, but free. Yes.

Speaker 1 Protective styles will.

Speaker 1 really change your life and allow you to just like live and be but i wanted to ask you guys too like once you got that freedom college or going off to do your career or whatever, did you guys ever do anything that you're like now left to my own devices?

Speaker 1 Like, why did I do that? Cosmetology school, I did everything under the sun. I had pink hair.
I had blue hair. You did the color of it.

Speaker 1 You put that on

Speaker 1 my hair. You bleached my hair.
You lifted your hair, bleached it, and then put color on top. Oh, yellow.
And then it fell out. And I used to have really thick hair.
And I just blame myself.

Speaker 1 I know better now. Right.
And I was, you're experimenting in cosmetology school and you're just trying different looks and you're trying to be a creative.

Speaker 1 But again, it's also one of those things where my counterparts were doing all these different things with their hair. So I was like, I'm going to do the same thing too.
And I'm learning about this.

Speaker 1 So why not? The water in my hair too.

Speaker 1 That was your watermelon and your body.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 my hair didn't respond the same way. There was a little more care, nourishment, love that my hair needed beyond just using whatever products, doing whatever.

Speaker 1 And, you know, what we were learning in hair school wasn't for my texture. But I didn't, I was just like, well, I'm in an educational institute.

Speaker 1 So of course they're going to guide me in the right way. Right.
And it wasn't. And afterwards, I was like, okay.
So then I was like, no more color, no more nothing.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to take a break from it all.

Speaker 1 But it was definitely an experiment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 What about you, Marce?

Speaker 2 I'm trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1 So much.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think honestly, I've been so

Speaker 2 secure in the styles that I like since I was little. I really didn't change it too, too much.

Speaker 2 It's so funny because I learned,

Speaker 2 I'm like thinking more about the mistakes that happen after like transitioning to one style to the next.

Speaker 2 So, like, when I get my hair braided and it's time to take them down, it was just me by myself trying to take my hair down, you know, trying to be grown.

Speaker 1 Like, okay, I got you, mom. I got it, mom.

Speaker 2 I was like, my hair's, my hairs, you know, stayed the same.

Speaker 1 I cut it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I cut it here.

Speaker 1 You're not here. You're not here.
I didn't know you had to start here.

Speaker 1 I cut it up here. You were like, you know, it's not that.
Like, yeah, yeah. And then I take pictures in my little bob, my little braid bob that I made.
Like, oh, this is cute.

Speaker 2 And then I take it down and then it just looks really bad.

Speaker 1 It would look, it would be like, like, part of it's up here, part of it's down here.

Speaker 2 And it just was,

Speaker 2 yeah. But I just, I'm thinking about like those kind of little mishaps that just taught me more about just my hair overall.

Speaker 2 I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I just need to take this step before taking this step.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 I've dyed my hair before, but

Speaker 2 never pink and blues.

Speaker 1 It was probably like the pink sort of thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's currently dyed now.

Speaker 2 But the first time I dyed, it was like a blonde, like it was like a honey blonde. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was a honey blonde.

Speaker 2 And it was 2020.

Speaker 1 You know, no one really cared.

Speaker 2 We was inside.

Speaker 1 We was in the house.

Speaker 2 and yeah, that was like the one time where I really, I really dyed my hair. And it was funny because

Speaker 2 back then, you know, everything was really, really remote, of course, during 2020. So it was the BET Awards and I had to present in the, in my backyard.

Speaker 2 And that was the first time people saw like the honey blonde.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 We got to pull up that picture. Right, right.
Y'all can pull it up.

Speaker 2 Y'all can pull it up. But I think that was, that was definitely, that was a time.
Let me just say that. That was a time.
And then there was comments where I was like, why is her hair blonde?

Speaker 1 Like, is that a wig?

Speaker 1 And I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like,

Speaker 1 I thought I liked it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just trying stuff.

Speaker 2 And my mom was like, it's okay.

Speaker 1 Look, Ethel,

Speaker 1 like, you like your hair? So

Speaker 2 I did a video

Speaker 2 that was just like addressing the haters.

Speaker 1 That was very, very funny. I love it.
I love the humor, but the clapback and all of that. That brings up such a good point about our hair

Speaker 1 is people touching it,

Speaker 1 petting us. Right.

Speaker 1 And like, how have you guys navigated that? Because I've definitely been on the New York subway and someone's hand is just like in my head, or I've had superior, like at work, at jobs. touch my hair.

Speaker 1 And it's just like. So what did you do in those days? I mean,

Speaker 1 when I was on the subway, it was like, no, please don't touch my hair. Actually, hot tip, never touch a black woman's hair, period.

Speaker 1 You shouldn't touch anyone's hair, but like Solange wrote a whole song about it. You can go listen to it on

Speaker 1 what I'm saying on the bottom of that. But like, don't touch my hair, please.
When it was in the workplace, it was harder because this is a superior.

Speaker 1 And so, like, and it was a white woman and it's hard because you're like, in that moment, you just feel like me too. Like, you just feel like, oh my God, that was uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 How do I put that person in their place and keep my job and my livelihood? And so you just internalize it and you go home and cry in your husband's arms. And that's what I did.

Speaker 1 But, and then cussed her out, like, you know, at home with my friends. But you know, that is a very unique experience.

Speaker 1 I feel like most Black women have encountered where someone wants to touch your hair. Or how's that? Like, I want to feel it.
What's the texture? And, like, but unsolicited.

Speaker 1 But I think that's why conversations like this, why

Speaker 1 I wanted to talk about hair in the look, because I think I want us as women of color, all the women of color in the world with all the different textures, I want us to get comfortable, you know, with the subject of our hair and owning our beauty and, you know,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 being a part of educating in our circle of conversations, welcoming people into these circles of conversation to have questions answered and to help people understand the boundaries that they

Speaker 1 they take for granted or they don't offer us um you know and this is completely true when it comes to the workplace i mean you know the notion that there is a right way for hair to look and to feel um is really a presumptuous kind of wow how how how do how do how does anyone get to the point where they think that they can comment on somebody else's hair and let me tell you, as First Lady, you know, even though I wore my hair braided in college, when it was time for me to get my, to walk into that law firm, to start getting jobs, it wasn't even a question in my mind.

Speaker 1 You just knew. It was just like,

Speaker 1 it wasn't up for discussion.

Speaker 1 There was a standard of hair and it required a lot of care. I mean, it's actually to get your hair blow-dried and I mean, I had a standing, we all know the standing appointment that is weekly.

Speaker 1 You have to Every two weeks.

Speaker 1 I had one weekly.

Speaker 1 And it's costly and it's time consuming in ways that a lot of people don't understand.

Speaker 1 You know, coming into the White House and we were having conversations, I came in with a relaxer.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I knew the

Speaker 1 importance. of making broader statements about hair as the first black first lady.
But I will tell you, I consciously understood that at least until people knew me,

Speaker 1 you know, which took eight years,

Speaker 1 that I needed to not make hair a part of the conversation, which is why I'm taking the time to talk about it now, because it always is an important part of a woman and a black woman's journey.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I couldn't risk.

Speaker 1 I know that was such a powerful statement when you came out and said America wasn't ready. It wasn't ready.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, they couldn't. And I handle me and my husband giving each other a fist bump on stage.
They couldn't handle your arms out with my arms and your portrait.

Speaker 1 They were like, what is going on? Like, could you imagine if you came down with like some box breaks? Like they would be like, what is that? Why is she wearing her hair like that?

Speaker 1 You know, like, I think that that's so

Speaker 1 profound that you were able like, because two, you could have been like, screw it. Say it loud.
I'm black and I'm proud.

Speaker 1 I'm going to do the things, but that could have also overshadowed everything else that you guys were trying to do politically.

Speaker 1 And there's also, you know, this is, we talk a lot about change and the evolving and the speed of it. And I know that

Speaker 1 generationally people get impatient and they want change now. And change is one of those things.
It's, it's like you gotta, you gotta read the room sometimes and feel the time.

Speaker 1 In my mind, I knew there was going to come a point in time in my public life where I was going to get my braids back in. I was going to reclaim that.

Speaker 1 But the bigger point of getting the ACA passed and doing work with

Speaker 1 health with kids and

Speaker 1 military families and all the things that were on my husband's agenda, fashion and hair had to be a

Speaker 1 backstory for the moment.

Speaker 1 Choose your battles. You know what you had to get done.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 But I knew that representation is important.

Speaker 1 I knew that then. I know it now,

Speaker 1 which is why we're doing this.

Speaker 1 Because now

Speaker 1 it's time.

Speaker 1 We should now be in a point in our nation's history.

Speaker 1 You know, even though sometimes it feels like we're going backwards, that we have to start accepting and embracing the differences of all of us, that there isn't a standard of beauty and it doesn't look like what's on the magazine cover.

Speaker 1 That's that's taste. Right.
You know, that's just sort of what you might happen to like. Right.
But it isn't the standard, you know.

Speaker 1 And we have to start educating people about all kinds of beauty. Yes.
And our beauty is so powerful and so unique

Speaker 1 that it is, that it is worthy of the conversation and it's worthy of demanding the respect that we're owed for who we are and what we offer to the world. Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Marce and Yanae, I want to know what you guys also think about the this now in this day and age, the freedom, right? You're styling people's hair and like overseeing your salon.

Speaker 1 You're out here with these amazing braids and like I've scrolled through your Instagram so much, like seeing all of the hairstyles that you do.

Speaker 1 It seems like there is this beautiful level of freedom where you're not second guessing whether I want to do this style or not or present myself in this way and not be, you know,

Speaker 1 criticized in

Speaker 1 a huge way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I know for me, it's just about,

Speaker 2 I think in this day and age, too,

Speaker 2 the only thing that I can really focus on is my originality, just what I bring to the table, you know, such as anybody else. I think that

Speaker 2 I am

Speaker 2 lucky enough and beyond blessed to have a family that never told me that

Speaker 2 I am flawed in any kind of way when it comes to the styles that I want to do and the decisions that I choose to make.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I trusted that. I trusted them.
I trusted my family. I trusted

Speaker 2 my grandparents and just the people around me that

Speaker 2 said that it was okay to do what my heart desired. And I just kind of wanted to carry that throughout.

Speaker 2 Regardless of what social media said or anybody that I would approach on the street said, I trusted that statement. I didn't trust, you know, anything else.

Speaker 2 So for me, that's just kind of what I wanted to do. And

Speaker 2 I am happy during this time.

Speaker 2 People have started to tell their own story and have a,

Speaker 2 you know, having their journey speak for themselves when it comes to their hair, makeup, fashion, or whatever the case may be. So as a creator at heart,

Speaker 2 somebody that just kind of wants to brainstorm and just do whatever,

Speaker 2 that excited me. So, you know, I think that's just, that's just the energy that I I carry in any red carpet and anything.

Speaker 2 Whether I'm in the house

Speaker 2 going out to the grocery store or I'm, you know, going to the next event, like that's just, that's just what it is. And I've had my braider Twy, who is absolutely amazing in LA.

Speaker 2 I've had her since I was.

Speaker 2 13, maybe. Like really when I started little in that whole trajectory of everything, that's really when I started being like, all right, all hands on deck.
Who are my people?

Speaker 1 Who is my team?

Speaker 2 Like, who are the people that

Speaker 2 understand me and also would be able to explain the things that I don't understand in a new light and a new lane that I can create for myself? So,

Speaker 1 I was going to say, do you bring your glam with you?

Speaker 1 Like, on projects, are you very like adamant if you, if someone reaches out to you for a product, a project, you're like, I'm bringing my hair and makeup people because I'm not leaving it to y'all to figure out what this face and this hair gives.

Speaker 1 It's really interesting.

Speaker 2 It's funny because I've gotten pickier, but I wasn't like this.

Speaker 1 I wasn't like this at all.

Speaker 2 I've gotten pickier the more stories that I've like that I've had throughout my life and different memories.

Speaker 2 I wasn't as picky, you know, if Roxy wasn't with me or anybody else.

Speaker 1 I'm like, all right, let's see who's from New York. I mean, New York got some people, of course.

Speaker 2 And then there's this, this lady who came in, didn't know how to lay some edges. She had a wax stick

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 a straightener to put in a ponytail. It was just, it was the craziest thing.
I was going to

Speaker 2 a Prada fashion show at the time.

Speaker 1 Oh, no. And it was.
And you're probably like, oh my gosh, I want to slay.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that was crazy. I had to be 14, 15 at the time.
And my mom came in and she said, all right, you have a good one. The lady left.

Speaker 1 And she said,

Speaker 2 where's my

Speaker 1 pom-pom bun? The pom-pom bun she's going to do that.

Speaker 2 So she popped that bun in.

Speaker 1 She drew the

Speaker 1 drawstrue, like

Speaker 1 and put some

Speaker 1 Bobby Saints in, not loose. She's like, Not today, my baby's not gonna be upset.

Speaker 1 Luckily, Prada got a skirt. She's in

Speaker 1 Prada got a gun.

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Speaker 1 Well, I, on the other hand, like my people. Yeah.
No, I love my people. I mean, she's been with you in the White House, but I want to talk about this level of freedom now.
Yeah, I love it. Because

Speaker 1 this is, you have been giving us looks. You too have been creating such moments, hair moments.

Speaker 1 Talk about that freedom and the collaboration you guys have now that you can kind of step away from the whole respectability politics of the White House and you can have fun.

Speaker 1 How is it like collaborating? Do you guys come to each other with ideas? Do. Like, how does that? We do collaborate.
We need all the tea.

Speaker 1 The main thing for me is making sure that she feels beautiful and she feels empowered.

Speaker 1 And anything that we do, it's always a conversation. And it's not just a conversation between myself and Michelle, but it's a conversation with the whole GLAM team.

Speaker 1 It's not about owning a part of her. And I think that that's what makes our team so special is that we collaborate asking Meredith and Carl, like, what are your ideas? Like, what is she wearing?

Speaker 1 Where is she going? What is she doing? And then once we figure that out, then we go, we individually have conversations with her. And I'm like, I'm thinking this.
So

Speaker 1 depending on what the neckline is doing, like earlier, we talked about putting her hair up because she had high shoulders or just being down and playful and then also having her have the freedom where she doesn't have to depend on us i think so often black women we feel like a slave to our hair and that's something that is embedded in us when we are kids right we are a slave to the beauty industry we have to go to the salon we have to buy these products we have to wrap our hair we have to do this we can't just jump in the pool we can't just vacations and freedom isn't really free and so the main thing is just making sure that she's able to be wherever she wants in the world and not have to feel that she has to have glam with her and that she can take care of herself.

Speaker 1 And it goes back to education and making sure that her hair is the healthiest that it needs to be. Yes.

Speaker 1 So our collaboration process, like she said when she came in, she's just like, you got me out of braids.

Speaker 1 And I was like, just temporarily, but we're going to set you up so that when you leave, you're still able to maintain your hair. Michelle, are you having fun? It looks like you're having so much fun.

Speaker 1 We've seen the little buns, the two buns. We've seen all of the things like your.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is so much, it's it is freedom. It is, um,

Speaker 1 you know, I, I, I had fun in the White House, don't get me wrong. Um, and you know, while I have a team, we've had, I've had a number of people in and out as part of the team.

Speaker 1 Johnny Wright, who uh trained um Yanae, um, he's moved on.

Speaker 1 Um, you know, there was uh uh uh my original stylist, uh, Ronnie Flowers, who brought me into the White House, and Jerry, who does braids, because the beauty of Yenae is that

Speaker 1 she's not wedding me to her.

Speaker 1 If I want to go into braids and she knows the best braider, she's going to get the best braider in. And I develop that relationship.

Speaker 1 So I think, you know, there's a generosity of spirit that goes into this team. It's like, this isn't my client, my thing, you know,

Speaker 1 Yane isn't the celebrity in the celebrity stylist, you know, because we really didn't, as I said, we weren't out front on hair and beauty. So I needed a team that was okay

Speaker 1 being

Speaker 1 in the background for eight, 10, 15 years until it's time to talk about it.

Speaker 1 So all of that.

Speaker 1 made it always fun.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 at the end,

Speaker 1 you know, all I said to my team when I went into the White House, I said, I want to walk out here with my sanity, my kids in check, and my hair in my head. Yes.

Speaker 1 And that's the thing that you have to worry about with different stylists, especially as black women. But I think all women go through this.
I mean, I've heard this from friends of all nationalities.

Speaker 1 You get somebody that doesn't know what they're doing to your hair, and the color is too harsh.

Speaker 1 It burns your hair out um your hair dries out you you know and that's it's somebody's it is traumatizing to have somebody mess up your hair your crown you know yes it grows back but it's still it it feels it feels like an assault right you know i mean it's just sort of like what did you do and why did you do this and if you didn't know what you were doing why didn't you just say so right yeah right i mean all of us have experienced that that you know that sort of trauma.

Speaker 1 I didn't have that, you know, you had your, your village. And was your village, I know we talked a little bit about this, Yane, but like, was your village also supporting your mother and the girls?

Speaker 1 Oh, for the White House. Oh, for sure.
So you're very intentional about the ladies' hair, right? All the ladies' hair.

Speaker 1 Because there's also the difference, you know, I will say as Marseille is when you were in the public eye.

Speaker 1 You can't have a bad hair day. And you were getting up at four o'clock in in the morning, 4.30 in the morning to work out.
Oh, yeah. And then I had 4.30 workout.

Speaker 1 I'd start hair and makeup, which we got down to an hour and a half process because everybody is efficient too, because I'm working.

Speaker 1 It's like we can't, you know, you can't take, I don't have an hour to

Speaker 1 prodding and heat and that sort of thing, but your hair was able, you know,

Speaker 1 you use protective styles, protective styles, extensions, wigs, extensions. We used it all.

Speaker 1 And something that I wasn't used to coming out of a regular person's life where you just use your own hair, you know, what was clear in the team is like, there's no way you can get your hair done every day, sometimes two, three times a day, depending upon did it rain?

Speaker 1 Did you swim? Did you, and have it stay in your head. And that's, you know, so what I realize is like, oh, the only way you do that is like you can't use your own hair.

Speaker 1 I love that you say in the book too, that you wanted it to look like your hair.

Speaker 1 Well, that was the other thing because it was about the independence, you know, because I was like, well, what if you get sick? Right. What if you, you know, what if life happens?

Speaker 1 And now I'm in some long weave and I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do with this. Right.
This isn't me. Right.

Speaker 1 That's also the difference with me. I always had to look like me.
Like that's the other thing.

Speaker 1 The team was like, I am not a celebrity. I am famous.
I'm in the public eye, but I'm not Beyonce, you know, and I don't

Speaker 2 political

Speaker 1 Beyonce or something.

Speaker 1 To show up with hair down my back one minute and a snatched ponytail, that would detract. Not because it's me or because it's black hair, but if like every time I'm showing up, you know,

Speaker 1 it's the ponytail that's walking into the room and it's not me. And the room shouldn't be looking just at me.
It should be looking at the kids that I'm talking to.

Speaker 1 And it should be looking at, you know, so there was some level of.

Speaker 1 Let's be consistent. You know, I'm not singing on the stage.
I'm not, you know, whipping my hair back and forth. I'm actually in somebody's church or I'm at a cemetery.

Speaker 1 It's like, I have to work good, but like. I'm not in a school.

Speaker 1 I'm on the ground with four-year-olds. We're just reading.
It should have just reading hair. Just reading hair.
Just reading hair. That's all we're doing is reading.
Nothing to see. None of us dad.

Speaker 1 But I'm not

Speaker 1 the hair on the corner. I'm curious around the maintenance of it all, right? Are there tips and tricks?

Speaker 1 Like even just like beyond the philosophy of keeping our hair obviously looking good but healthy, like what could like, were there like things y'all were doing like in the White House that we need to know about and like going

Speaker 1 on like the biggest thing was transitioning her out of a relaxer. Okay.
Okay. First thing first.
And then the use of protective styling, the use of extensions, just realizing that the

Speaker 1 average person doesn't have to go into extensions.

Speaker 1 And one of the things that I always tell when people come into the salon and they bring in inspiration of a celebrity, I'm like, you don't have celebrity glam with you. Like

Speaker 1 this person can have a wig on today and then I have a different wig on tomorrow, but they have someone else maintaining it. That's not realistic for you to maintain.

Speaker 1 And so with Michelle, the thing was making sure that she was able to maintain it, but we were also able to maintain it in a way that if we were sick, if someone wasn't available, that she can make herself look decent.

Speaker 1 So again, it can't be too long. The texture had to match.
Understanding, can she tie it into a ponytail? So protective styles, using extensions.

Speaker 1 staying away from chemicals and knowing that less is more. Well, and constant conditioning, right? I mean, I was going to say there's a product sheet that you loved.
Like,

Speaker 1 did you deep condition? She steamed every appointment. Steamed.
I love that. Come on with the steam.
Everything was we had a steam. Yeah.
We had a steamer.

Speaker 1 Every appointment was just every appointment. That you had a wash day.

Speaker 1 We did have a wash day. Every Sunday was wash day in the White House.
Oh, yeah. With everyone, mom, the girls.

Speaker 1 Well, mine varied. It wasn't Sunday because if I, whenever I had a down day, right? The girls, because they were in school and, you know, they would, Sundays tended to be their days.
She was regular.

Speaker 1 She was regular.

Speaker 1 Grandmas want regular care. She's the one who's like, she came to the salon.
She was just like, I could just come to the salon. We have a salon in the White House.
Okay. So,

Speaker 1 but she would swim with her. Which is just a little room.
It was like the kitchen of the White House. So I love that every day.
It was next to the kitchen. Oh, too.
Oh, grandma. She

Speaker 1 was getting her nails done and her hair done on a regular basis. But I love this tip, steaming.
Because I feel like. Look, I'm a beauty editor.
I get it.

Speaker 1 Like, I've learned about steaming and how great that is, but it's something that you don't really think about doing at home all the time.

Speaker 1 You might do it when you're in the salon, but i love the fact that it's like that was something that was non-negotiable in your hair routine non-negotiable yeah moisture yeah but wait can we talk about the girls a little bit i love how you were talking about how you were always like you know loved on and poured into and we can see that like sasha and malia were

Speaker 1 that was done from at least from the outside looking in and you've talked about it you know in your books of how much you've loved on them and wanted them to have this like beautiful childhood childhood even in in the public eye but when it came to hair too i think it's all it was so interesting that you were dealing with this respectability politics of

Speaker 1 you know straightening your hair and having it a certain way but also you're raising these two young black girls yes and like it's almost like a do what i say not what i do like how are you pouring into them to say

Speaker 1 you have to love your hair the way it grows out of your head, be proud of your blackness, all of that. But like, I've got to do this.
this

Speaker 1 yeah i mean they never

Speaker 1 they never have had relaxers i think we we i think we did a henna once we did a a character for malia and that didn't didn't once and it was like

Speaker 1 no not going back there and um and she was in twist um until she chose what to do with her hair. I mean, she and Sasha both have different hair textures.

Speaker 1 Sasha's hair couldn't hold a twist. Malia's hair twisted up so nicely.

Speaker 1 And she had the cutest twists. And so she became a teenager and was like, I need something else.

Speaker 1 But I was fortunate because I had a team with me. So they understood the difference.

Speaker 1 My hair was work. It was work hair.
Right. Right.
They didn't conflate that with, oh, mom doesn't love her natural hair and she's doing this. Why doesn't she show her natural hair to the world?

Speaker 1 They could understand the nuance that I have to do this for work, but I want you to be able to see.

Speaker 1 You're little girls, and you know, and you're girls, and your hair is beautiful.

Speaker 1 But they, you know, but we, because they grew up with almost their own little glam team, but it wasn't really glam, but they, you know,

Speaker 1 they saw so many different versions of beautiful and Jerry, who had dreads, and Yanae, who changed her hair every other month. Come on.
It seemed like she was a hair girly.

Speaker 1 You know, they were surrounded by all different types of black women doing different things with their hair. Right.

Speaker 1 And generationally, thank goodness, you know, the Marseille, you guys are coming up with different messages. You know, they do see

Speaker 1 social media. They are, they, unlike us, they have, they have Marseille.
Right. You know, they have Yara.
They have, they have so many,

Speaker 1 so many

Speaker 1 real life examples of how different and beautiful we are. I mean, that's how far we've come.

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Speaker 1 Before we leave the White House and talking about your family, we had to talk about Mr. Obama and like how, did he ever weigh in on your hair?

Speaker 1 Was he ever coming into the salon like, oh, that's cute, or like any like amazing reactions when you walked out? And he was like, damn, yes.

Speaker 1 Our favorite times of sort of our rituals were state dinners. Right.
And I write about sort of that whole, because the state dinners were fun. Yes.
Right.

Speaker 1 Because it was the gown and the this and the that. And the, you know, everybody would collaborate.

Speaker 1 And, you know, there were just routine, we'd have champagne and hors d'oeuvres for the team and we'd play music and you'd just sort of get ready because it's special. It's a gown.
And, you know,

Speaker 1 so we'd be getting ready in the salon. Then I'd get hair makeup done.
Then I'd go into my dressing room with Meredith. We'd put on the gown and nobody, he would never see it.
Right.

Speaker 1 And he'd be waiting in the cross hall when I came out into the gown right before we were getting on the elevator to go down. for the official greet.
And that's when he would see the look.

Speaker 1 And everybody would, you know, there's a look. Yeah.
There's like, there's just a look. Trifect that everybody would come out and wait for him.
It's the first look in like a wedding or something

Speaker 1 every so again and again would you get butterflies like I yeah anticipating how he's like what is he gonna say this is so cute he's gonna you know and I

Speaker 1 we all used to gush up yeah they'd all just sit around and watch him and then we get then we run to the TV to watch the actual arrival ceremony take place on TV to see like how does it but he was very much a man like it's like so uh what does this mean you know if there was a long train or something fashion-y hanging off that he didn't understand, he'd be like, uh, is this supposed to be like this?

Speaker 1 You know, and it's like, dude, it's fashion. It's way above your pay grade.
It's like, don't worry about it. You don't understand.
You don't need to understand it. Right.

Speaker 1 Just understand it's fashion. Yeah.
And he obviously understood the reasons why you were wearing the hair in which you were wearing. It wasn't like he was like, no, Michelle.

Speaker 1 put the braids in, let the world know. Well, he is always

Speaker 1 my, you know, he's like, you are beautiful no matter what you do. He's like, I don't even, I don't, I don't notice the difference in anything.

Speaker 1 So he has always been, is always, continues to be completely affirming. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But he understands that women are different, that our challenges, our struggles, the things we have to do, he has watched the three women in his life and his mother and his sisters, you know,

Speaker 1 and yeah, and his mother-in-law. Um, you know, he's he sees the work that we're required to put in, he respects it, he understands it.

Speaker 1 Um, but it, you know, sometimes he wonders, you know, do you have to do all that?

Speaker 1 And it's like, dude, you're doing the most, dude. This, this fashion is counting for at least one percentage approval rating, right? Right, right.

Speaker 1 You know, this gown, you know, somebody put some respect on the fact that me coming out here slaying and looking this thing is helping our situation your situation

Speaker 1 value added dude tell me value adding i love that when you would step out on red carpets are you like i don't know like it's so interesting being a part of the public eye like that whole collaboration for you to go out there how much of it also is like are you taking your hair into consideration right because i think a lot of people is like it's all about the the gown you go to the mech gallery everyone's asking just about the the clothing right or going to red carpet who are you wearing But like, I always think it's so interesting as a beauty girl.

Speaker 1 I'm like, who did that hair? Look at those edges. They're like swirled.
Like, look at those braids. How much of your hair is

Speaker 1 like taken into consideration when you're like going out on the red carpet?

Speaker 2 Completely. I think just like we were talking about, it's the overall look that we that we break down.

Speaker 2 I think it just, it only makes sense when if there, if there's a gown or if there's a street wear kind of whatever it has to fit it has to make sense it's it's telling the overall story not just that and marce do you have fun in it yeah is it fun for you i have fun

Speaker 2 i have fun i think that's like the triple leo in me like i have lots of triple leo i'm a triple leo oh my good girl

Speaker 1 Lots of fun. You like to show up and show out.

Speaker 2 I like to show up and show out

Speaker 2 because that's just, I'm a visionary. I'm a creator.
Like that's just what I like to do.

Speaker 1 And a storyteller, right? Like, our hair. Like, I love the history of our hair and even like braiding, right? And how we would braid routes to freedom into our hair.

Speaker 1 They would put rice in our hair so we would have food where we, like.

Speaker 1 This like ancestral lineage of our hair

Speaker 1 is so like deep and like strong and amazing that like the fact that we can tell stories and everything we do.

Speaker 2 It's beautiful. It tells a beautiful journey.
And then I look at not just the pop culture inspirations, but I look at like Erica Badu.

Speaker 1 I look at Jill Scott.

Speaker 2 I look at the women who just exude, Janae Ico just exude just a beautiful energy that also just transforms into their hair.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, wow.

Speaker 2 I think one pop culture one, even Dochi, Dochi has been killing it recently

Speaker 1 about just

Speaker 1 the overall look, you know? Remember, was it Saturday Night Live when she did the performance and her and all of her dancers were connected? That one

Speaker 1 though, Stephen Colbert. Or Stephen Colbert.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a late night show.

Speaker 1 So amazing. They were moving and dancing with their hair connected to each other.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Dope. And that's what you mean by like just the overall story that you're telling.
It's not just one part of it. It's everything that pulls it all together.
So yeah,

Speaker 2 I definitely think about it all the time.

Speaker 1 From your vantage point, do you see movement when it comes to

Speaker 1 growth in terms of how first we as women of color view ourselves and how the world sees us? I'm just curious about what you're seeing in the culture. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think because we live in our phones, because we live in social media,

Speaker 1 it allows us to curate to like what we see and what we're taking in and the inspiration of that all.

Speaker 1 And we're allowed to, I mean, I work for a publication, but I really do find inspiration on like following folks because they're allowed to storytell and tell the world that we're beautiful and look at all the ways in which we're beautiful.

Speaker 1 We're obviously not a monolith. I, I have a belief that, you know, there was a few years ago back, we were having this whole like, are you natural? Are you not? Like that whole like internal beef.

Speaker 1 And I was like, whatever. We are magical, whether I'm giving you a 23 inch bust down.
That's right. Or if I have a sky high afro.

Speaker 1 Like it's so amazing that we can create that narrative without, sure, there's going to be input and trolls and that sort of thing, but you can kind of zone it out.

Speaker 1 And the fact that I get to be a storyteller and like put the people in the magazines that you didn't see, Michelle, growing up, like that is, I know that that is part of my power.

Speaker 1 I might not have a lot of like money and like fame and all of that, but like I'm very intentional when I'm writing.

Speaker 1 I mean, I have a column called Yours, Mine, and Ours in Cosmo, the biggest young women's media brand in the world, which is an intersection between black culture and beauty.

Speaker 1 And so I get to be very black, black, black, black, me, black all the time and tell our stories, right? So like that for me, is really magical. And I am a half glass full girl.

Speaker 1 So I do do believe we're getting better and we're taking it upon ourselves. I mean, black women,

Speaker 1 like, come on, we can do anything. We are

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 creators of our own narrative and story. And so the fact that I get to be a part of that lineage is like amazing, but we're all doing it, which I love.
Like, and I just love that our hair.

Speaker 1 gets to be part of that storytelling.

Speaker 1 I just, yeah, I just want us to get to the point where it's all, all right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, we're getting there.
Yeah. That the choices that we make for ourselves, whether it's like you said, natural extensions, what is it called? The beat down.
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 A bust backs.

Speaker 1 You got that.

Speaker 1 Bust down. Yeah, I got you.
That's new. Yes.
She don't do bus backs. No, we're not.

Speaker 1 Straight back, straight backs. Like whatever we want.
You talk about like wearing straight backs.

Speaker 1 And it's like that, all of that is not like it's it's professional, it's beautiful, it's it's all of the things that the world sometimes wants us to think it's not, and it is.

Speaker 1 And we get to be the ones to say,

Speaker 1 quiet that all down. Yeah, we're beautiful, we're we're doing it.
You eat, please, eat it up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because and then this point in time when it feels like there's potentially an assault on diversity, I think it becomes

Speaker 1 more important for us us to not let the

Speaker 1 not not to lose ground on this.

Speaker 1 You know, and you know, for the listeners of all races out there, you know, what I implore you to do for this generation of girls of all colors is that we under that we understand that it's up to all of us to help all of our girls or women feel beautiful just like they are.

Speaker 1 And that that means how they go to school, when you see them on the bus, when they are your coworkers sitting with you, you know.

Speaker 1 Just remember the little biases in your head that may make you think that who they are is somehow different or giving off some message that it's not.

Speaker 1 You know, our hair is really not a message of anything except this is just who we are, maybe just today.

Speaker 1 Yes. Maybe just for this one moment we have this moment.
You know,

Speaker 1 How much time we had today.

Speaker 1 We are more likely than not

Speaker 1 trying to tell you anything other than,

Speaker 1 this is what we could make happen for ourselves at this moment. Yeah.
You know, and we're going to need. in this time, we're going to need a country of

Speaker 1 fellow women, a world of fellow women who get this,

Speaker 1 you know, and stand with us on this.

Speaker 1 And I think that'll help this next generation of little babies coming up, you know,

Speaker 1 feel that we've made that progress. Like, the difference between when I was growing up and when you were growing up, when you were growing up in Marseille, just

Speaker 1 listening to you, being in the industry, being in DC, it's a little different for me.

Speaker 1 But listening to you and you're just saying how, well, I just kind of did what I wanted and being under the public eye, you're just, you're already seeing how much progress we've made.

Speaker 1 Although at times I do feel like it's like, man, we still got to fight this fight. We still like, I have clients that come in the salon and still say, like,

Speaker 1 I'm going for an interview. Maybe I should straighten my hair.
And I'm like, no, you don't have to straighten your hair. And can you just talk a minute about the Crown Act? Yeah, Crown Act

Speaker 1 for people who aren't aware. Crown Act

Speaker 1 protects women of color with textured hair against.

Speaker 1 race, hair-based discrimination in the workplace, in the school place, locks,

Speaker 1 afros,

Speaker 1 any type of knots knots of any sort. And it's passed in only 28 states as of July of this year, 2025.
And it's extremely important because

Speaker 1 I don't think people realize how much pressure it is on women of color of how they go into the workplace and how they are perceived. And you hear stories,

Speaker 1 even when it comes down into the military of protocols, of how we are, how military personnel are allowed to wear their hair and in the workplace, how they're allowed to wear their hair.

Speaker 1 So the Crown Act is really not just talking about race, hair-based discrimination, but it's also about education.

Speaker 1 So you were talking about Roxine being able to have someone on set that knows your hair texture. That is not the norm

Speaker 1 today, still in 2025. And so it also is going into teaching texture education in cosmetology schools, which is extremely important as well.
Absolutely. It's so important.

Speaker 1 I really hope it gets passed federally because going state by state is one thing. But if we could just make this a sweeping law that you cannot discriminate against textured hair

Speaker 1 protective styles, I mean, remember the young boy in Jersey who was a wrestler and he had to cut his locks right there or forfeit his match. Like it's those sorts of things that are.

Speaker 1 something we don't, we shouldn't have to think about. Again, it goes back to the idea of freedom.
And we've talked about that a lot in this.

Speaker 1 Freedom of our styles, freedom for you to be able to like move how you want to move without your team, like freedom for our children to grow up and to be able to have whatever hairstyle they want and not feel like they, you know, they have to conform, being able to go into an interview and wear your hair a certain way.

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 1 we shouldn't have to be doing this mental gymnastics around our hair just to live and thrive. Well, and also the financial and chemical gymnastics.
I mean,

Speaker 1 but we're going to get there, y'all. We're going to get there.
We're going to get there. We're going to get there.
All together. All together.
We're like

Speaker 1 doing brains.

Speaker 1 Twist to twist. I love a little dochi.
I love it.

Speaker 1 But like, it just brings you.

Speaker 1 Should we all connect our hair right now? Yay.

Speaker 1 But, like, this is a great way to wrap it up. I could talk to you guys for hours and hours about this.
I just feel like hair is just such this beautiful connector of all of us.

Speaker 1 And like you guys wear your crowns so beautifully.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for allowing this conversation so that the world can hear like how we think about our hair and celebrate it and how the world should celebrate it.

Speaker 1 And we're going to keep doing our part and like telling the stories and doing the things. And there is going to be real change.
I feel it.

Speaker 2 I feel it. I mean, it's already starting.

Speaker 1 It's already written. It's already written.

Speaker 1 Let's just keep these conversations going

Speaker 1 at all the kitchen tables all throughout the land.

Speaker 1 Thank you all.

Speaker 1 Thank you.