Probable Jaws

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, probable jaws, Natasha brings the case against her friend, Jessica.

Jessica says if she had to, she could beat up a great white shark.

But Natasha doesn't believe Jessica has what it takes to win a shark fight.

She says Jessica can't even swim.

Jessica says her swimming abilities are irrelevant.

She just knows she can beat a shark in a fight.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Please continue to be risen, but I am seating the obscure cultural reference to Joel Mann, program and operations director here at WERU in Orlando, Maine.

Take it away, Joel, with an obscure cultural reference.

Very first light, Chief.

Sharks come cruising.

So we formed ourselves into tight groups.

the idea was the shark comes to the nearest man that man he starts pounding hollering and screaming and sometimes that shark he go away sometimes he wouldn't go away joel man essaying the role of question mark we'll find out when you swear the litigants in jesse thorne Natasha and Jessica, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

Yes.

yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's more of a whale guy?

Yes, yes.

I don't know.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I love a whale.

If I didn't love a whale, would I be reading Moby Dick into a tin can and presenting it chapter by chapter via my substack, hodgman.substack.com?

You might even argue that I have an obsession with a whale and vengeance upon that whale.

But we're not talking about whales.

We're talking about sharken.

Jessica, Natasha, sit down for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favors, can either of you name the piece of obscure, not very obscure culture that Joel Mann performed for you as I entered the courtroom.

Uh, Natasha, why don't you guess first?

Okay, so I don't remember the captain's name, but that sounds like he's describing the Jaws incident, the Indianapolis, right?

The like the famous World War II incident, the famous Jaws incident of World War II.

The Indianapolis.

I now realize you mean a ship called the Indianapolis.

Yes.

I thought you were describing a shark incident that had occurred in Indianapolis.

Yes.

The famous Circle City shark attacks of 1975.

The Motor Speedway Massacre.

Of the shark.

It would be a massacre of the shark.

Massacre of the shark?

Right, because you believe all humans, including you, beat all sharks.

Right.

Topic for today's debate, but before we get to it, what is your guess?

So I sort of agree with Natasha.

It does sound like the Indianapolis case, which is where a boat sank during World War II, and lots of people were unfortunately eaten or mauled by sharks.

The monologue that you're referring to, Natasha.

You're talking about the monologue from the movie Jaws?

Yes.

Jessica, are you talking about the monologue from the movie Jaws?

Sure.

Famous shark movie celebrating its 50th anniversary this year.

Aye, aye.

Good.

All guesses are wrong because I was not quoting from the movie Jaws.

Might have sounded like I was.

In fact, I wasn't doing anything.

It was Joel doing all the

doing all the

gruff talking.

Was it Sharknado 5 Global Swarming?

It was not Sharknado 5.

It was none of the Sharknados.

Joel, I asked you to read it because the name of the captain from Jaws is Quint, essayed by the actor, famously gruff actor Robert Shaw.

I felt like you had more of a seafarer's voice than mine.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Man.

But in fact,

how could I not reference Jaws in this 15th anniversary year when we're talking about punching out a great white shark?

But I was not quoting from the movie Jaws.

I was quoting from the play, The Shark is Broken,

written by Joseph Nixon and Ian Shaw,

who is Robert Shaw's second youngest child.

Robert Shaw passed away when Ian Shaw was eight or nine years old.

Ian Shaw became an actor.

He is now the age or thereabouts that Robert Shaw was when he passed away.

He looks just like Robert Shaw.

And noticing that he looked like his father, he started thinking about a play that he co-wrote with Joseph Nixon.

That play is called The Shark Isn't Broken.

It is a play set on the set of Jaws during the periods of time when the mechanical shark was broken.

When Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfus and Roy Scheider would sit around and shoot the feces and yell at each other.

And Robert Shaw would refine that monologue.

So while the screenplay of Jaws was written and credited to Peter Benchley, who was the novelist, and Carl Gottlieb, that particular monologue was the result of a kind of hazy collaboration between the writer Howard Sackler, famous screenwriter John Milius, and Robert Shaw himself, who is not just an actor, but also a playwright.

And their contribution to that monologue is kind of misremembered by a lot of people, but basically the understanding is that Robert Shaw refined and cut down and shaped the final draft that he performed on screen.

And this play, The Shark is Broken, debuted at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2019.

It came to Broadway in 2023, where I saw it with Ian Shaw, the spitting image of his dad and Alex Brightman as Richard Dreyfus.

All incredible performances.

But the play

ends with Ian Shaw performing the monologue again.

All the rest of it is...

written and made up and based on conversations, but they actually quote the entire Indianapolis monologue.

And let me tell you something.

Three actors, 95 minutes, one set, no intermission.

This thing is a license to print money.

I do not know why it's not on Vegas right now.

On Vegas, they call it.

I don't know why it's not the Blue Man group of Jaws Theater, because that place was packed with dads who wanted to see stuff about Jaws.

And when Ian Shaw performed his father's famous monologue at the end of the show, we all drowned in dad tears.

Even though we were all standing up in a standing ovation, the house came down.

It was incredible.

They just did a tour of the UK and Ireland.

That's done now.

But if you get a chance to see this show, particularly with Ian Shaw in it, it's a really, really remarkable piece.

And as I say, it's a license to print money.

Ian Shaw, if you're listening, let's get it going.

Let's get it everywhere.

I'm signed on as a producer.

Joel, are you signed on as a producer?

I'm definitely there.

Jesse, you signed on as a producer?

Executive producer.

I'll take executive producer.

Executive producer only credit.

All right.

So there it is.

You guessed correctly, but I found a way to make it wrong, as I always do here on Judge Sean Odgman.

So let's hear the case.

Who seeks justice in my courtroom?

I do, Your Honor.

Natasha.

Natasha.

Natasha, you say that Jessica cannot beat up a shark.

Is that correct?

Yes, I say Jessica suffers from delusions of grandeur

and thinks she can beat an apex predator.

So, and she's been saying this for years now.

So thank you.

How many years would you guess?

We traced it back in text messages, and it looks about four years.

About four years.

And how long have you known Jessica?

Coming up on 10 years, it will be 10 years in November.

And how did you come to be friends?

You don't live in the same town.

Natasha, you're there in Austin.

Jessica, you're there out in Georgia, an unnamed location in Georgia.

If you're watching on the YouTube channel at Judge Sean Ajman Pod, you can see that inadvertently,

Jessica and Natasha both dressed for their backgrounds

natasha is wearing a wonderful uh plant printed shirt it's like got fronds of plants and there are fronds of plants behind her there in in austin and jessica you look like a beautiful evening sky yeah that's what i was going for a nighttime sky dotted with stars and a midnight blue studio

anyway how did you come to meet each other uh natasha uh so we are both big uh trivia nerds we're into trivia And 10 years ago, we were both, you know, living in our own little separate worlds,

both fans of the same Jeopardy champion who happened to form an online chat room.

And he invited anyone who wanted to come in to, you know,

meet him and play trivia with him.

He'd host trivia.

And so we both joined along with a number of other people from across the country.

And a really nice chat room started up.

And so we became chat room friends 10 years ago.

and then it formed into a IRL friendship.

We've met several times in person.

Natasha says chat room friends, which sounds like it was like 2002.

It sounds creepy.

Yeah, it does sound creepy.

She means a Discord server, which is like a much more modern parlance of what happened.

It was not a chat room on AOL.

It was a Discord server.

It was a Discord server.

It didn't all start with one of you.

There was no ASL.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was no ASL involved.

Well, let me actually say, I met my husband in this chat room as well.

He's what brought me from Miami to Austin.

And my first sentence to him was ASL.

And then thus a great romance formed.

So now, obviously, I know everything about Discord, but ASL, what is that?

It's what you used to say in the old creepy chat rooms.

It's age, sex, location.

Oh,

got you.

Yep.

Yeah, Natasha's the only person who's ever typed that in Discord.

No one.

one was.

When you type that into your future husband, you were like,

I am of legal age.

I will have sex.

And I am willing to change location.

Yeah.

And it turned out to be

your proposal.

Yeah.

It worked out great for me.

You are, you are both, and you don't want to name the Jeopardy champion who is running this?

We're happy to name him.

Do you think they're going to get in trouble with Jeopardy proper?

I don't think so because he was very willing to self-promote.

So, and it was all over social media so uh his name was alex jacob uh i think he won something like eight games in regular jeopardy and so he got to come back to the tournament of champions and then he won that in like a really dominant fashion so he was a very impressive champion and he had lots of fans and and he facilitated not only your your love match uh natasha but your friend match with jessica yep Now, Jessica, the two of you have been on Jeopardy, right?

The TV show?

We have, yes, yeah.

You're not just messing around on Discords.

That's That's amazing.

Yeah.

It was, so it was after we met on Discord.

We both,

you know, really just started dedicating to trying to get on Jeopardy.

Because it's not just a one-off process.

Like you actually do, we, we did a lot of studying.

We took the tests multiple times, but Natasha was on first.

And then I guess about a year later, I was on.

And then our other friend, Lisa, also from the Discord group, has been on as well.

Jessica.

I don't care about Lisa.

Well, Lisa's not even here.

She's not here.

Lisa, but we do love Lisa.

Long walk off a short pier as far as judgment goes.

But we love Lisa.

And Lisa loves this podcast.

So I hope Lisa has some lemons because she's going to be sucking on one soon.

But Lisa isn't here.

Jessica, when you were on Jeopardy year after Natasha, did you mention Lisa when you were on television or Natasha?

I did mention.

Okay, so I mentioned Natasha, but not by name.

And you, but you mentioned Natasha, not by name, but in the context of what on the TV.

Yeah.

So my

contestant interview, which those are sort of chosen by the producers.

So you submit five and they pick the ones that they like the best.

So this was Jeopardy approved as a story, was that within hours of meeting Natasha in person for the first time, she tried to feed me to an alligator.

Objection.

No.

Go ahead, Natasha.

I'll allow it.

No, this is classic Natasha frivolous lawsuit stuff.

Exactly.

This objection.

This is why we need tort reform.

I'll allow it only in that it speaks to the topic at hand, which is fighting aquatic foes.

So the very quick version of this story is that I took her to the Everglades.

I was living in Miami at the time.

There was a lot of like hibernating alligators around.

We passed by one of these sleepy alligators whom like other tourists were taking photos in front of.

And as we passed by, it did move.

I will say it did move.

So that was a little startling.

And I jumped back.

The way that Jessica tells this story is not that I jumped back, but that I pushed her to this alligator, you know, sacrificing her instead of myself.

Yeah, she that was a classic example of I don't have to be faster than a bear.

I just have to be faster than exactly.

And that is the exact thing Alex Trebek said when he referred to that, which is so clearly that is the, you know, interpretation of this story, which is what happened.

And it was not just moving, it was making a horrible alligator hissing sound, which

like

a horrible alligator hissing sound.

It was, it was horrible because people had been taking selfies with the alligator, which is a horrible idea.

So they, it was very, um, you know, irate.

And so it did its horrible alligator hissing sound of hey.

And then Natasha physically moved me to be closer to the alligator while she skedaddled down the path.

Now, Natasha, you say that you were just getting out of the way and putting distance between you and this mean alligator.

But how do you respond to

these charges that I'm reading here in my notes?

You can see I'm reading them here on YouTube.

It says here that

before jumping back and pushing Jessica toward the alligator, that you covered her with beef towel and tallow and gave her a necklace of raw chicken thighs.

No, no, no, no.

That's what it says here.

And I have, I'm a cook, Judge Hodgman.

Oh, okay.

Not only did I not baste her in anything, I also don't think I pushed her.

I think I just took care of myself.

She's a grown woman.

I was trusting she could take care of herself.

So you abandoned me to the alligator?

To the sleeping, hibernating alligator.

Was it snoring then?

Like that, you're alleging that was a snore?

That's probably your noise that you just called a hiss sounded a lot more like a snore.

Everyone can Google alligator sounds.

And what I just did.

I was like, sneer to to make noise.

It was exactly, it was, yeah, it was correct.

Joel, why didn't you make the noise?

That's, that's not quite.

That wasn't it, but that was good.

It was a little more romantic than that, Joel.

That's fine.

You did a great job, man.

Screw cultural reference.

Thank you.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Let's put a pin in the alligator for a minute.

and then get back to the shark.

Natasha, you don't think Jessica could win a fight with with a shark, however you define it.

How did this even come up in your lives?

So based on the text messages, the way that we think that it came up was that we were just chatting in a group one day, group text, and someone said, hey, did you see the, you know, there's this online meme going around basically like I could win a fight against X wild animal.

And Jessica said, oh yeah, I can definitely like name the animal.

I'll be able to win a fight against any of them.

So I decided to take it to Apex Predator.

So I started, I said, not a great white shark.

Like certainly you don't prove that.

Not a great white shark.

Surely not.

And Jessica, with all the confidence that she always possesses,

said, of course I can't.

Like it's not even a doubt in her mind.

Yeah, to her, it's the most obvious thing in the world.

So, and then I, and then my immediate retort to her was, you can't even swim.

How do you think this is going down?

You can't even swim.

How is that?

How is it going to go down if you can't even swim?

It sounds to me like you're going to go down to the to the briny depths of death.

I retort to that.

Sharks can't even walk.

Shut it down, Jesse.

Sharks can't walk.

Got it.

Sharks can't walk.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's get out of here.

Joel shut down the radio station.

All right.

Sharks can't walk.

Should have seen this coming.

Too bad we raised all that money during the pledge drive here.

Got to shut down the radio station now.

Shame.

Sharks can't walk.

But in a hypothetical situation, sharks can't walk.

You make a good point there, Jessica.

No one disagrees with you.

How is that going to help you win the fight?

Because sharks are not usually walking around looking for fights.

Okay, so they are not looking for fights.

And I have a notebook that I've written facts on.

You can't see it.

It says sharks.

I can see it.

I can see it on YouTube and so can everyone else.

I have read extensive journals, scientific journals about sharks.

don't make that face natasha i read i thought you meant a shark journal like the shark was like dear diary no yeah i've read sharks private thoughts no no i've read scientific journals and sharks sharks are not looking for fights in fact sharks will flee if they think there's a fight so if you all you have to do is one dress like an orca because they are terrified of orcas right uh according to the monterey bay aquarium if there's an orca they will leave even if they've only seen the orca they will leave for a year of their favorite hunting ground.

Yeah.

So you dress like an orca.

Hang on.

Let me look it up in my book of shark facts here.

No, no.

Let's see.

Ah, you're right.

Here it is.

Dress like an orca.

You can win a fight.

Yeah.

John, how do you even know that's a book of shark facts if it doesn't say sharks on it?

Yeah, it didn't say sharks like mine.

What else?

Read more from your little book there, Jessica.

What does it say there?

Most of the quote-unquote shark attacks are not actually attacks.

They're investigatory bites because that's how they feel.

They're only trying to figure out what you are.

So it's a case of mistaken identity.

There's only been like actually 11 fatal shark bites in Florida in the past like 100 years since they've been recording this.

So sharks are not looking for a fight.

So they would just forfeit.

They would just be like, I'm cool.

Like I'm good, man.

But you appreciate after one investigatory, you know what I'm talking about.

Medeep, Madib, that's all folks.

After one investigation bite,

the fight might be over, even if it never started for you.

I don't think it would be.

So I would be willing to lose an arm to win this fight, this theoretical fight with Natasha.

So if a shark came up and like bit my hand off and then it would leave because it wouldn't want to eat me because they don't, I would still win.

So like it would leave after, you know, its investigatory bite of, you know, oh, what's this?

Why is it so easy for you to say it and I can't say it?

Investigatory.

Because I read it like five investigatory.

Well, you have it on in your notebook.

I do it.

I have it where it says sharks.

Yeah, I threw my shark book away.

If a shark ate your arm and then it left,

thus satiated both in terms of hunger and in terms of investigation.

Yeah.

You would consider yourself to have won that fight as you bled profusely into the ocean from the hole where your arm used to be.

Yes.

Like you, y'all genuinely wouldn't consider that winning.

People get beat up in boxing matches all the time with like horrible injuries, and they're still considered the winner.

Yeah, they're being paid.

Well, I would assume I'm being like, I don't know what scenario.

You're proposing a paid bout.

I just, I don't know what scenario in which a shark fight would occur, except for dystopia or money.

What are you, Jessica?

Logan Paul?

Yeah, you should have a YouTube channel where you fight sharks, make some money.

I am not Logan Paul.

Okay, fair enough.

Natasha, Jessica went to social media to take a poll on this subject.

I think that we have that as exhibit A in our evidence.

Jennifer Marmer, do you want to share that exhibit?

Take a look at this.

Okay, Natasha, tell me about this poll.

Natasha.

So as you can see, she didn't,

the fairest way to phrase this was just could have been no and yes.

Can I beat it?

No or yes.

The question is posed, do you believe I could win in a fight against a great white shark?

And the options are, yes, you have thumbs, meaning any, any creature with thumbs can beat a fish.

And then the other option is no, I am Natasha, meaning you are a weakling when it comes to sharks.

And a disbeliever.

Yeah, a disbeliever.

Oh, I see a disbeliever.

Right, I got you.

No, right, I see now.

The reference here is to Natasha not believing that you could win a fight.

Okay.

I think she was also trying to bias it by saying, I am Natasha.

I think she was hoping it would only get one vote from Natasha and everybody else, because they are not Natasha could not answer that.

And so would have to answer the other way.

But 47% of people, almost all of whom are not Natasha, agreed with me.

But 53%,

you can't just say 47%.

And then don't mention that the winning result, which was 53%, was yes.

Yeah.

I mean, what are you?

A Democratic politician?

I get it.

47% is a lot of people, but

it's not anything in our first past the post-election system.

Most people agreed with Jessica that Jessica could beat up a shark.

Natasha, what's your problem with Jessica's argument?

The people have voted.

The people didn't know she can't swim.

So we still haven't addressed that.

Well, you know, if you ever watch the movie Jaws, you'll remember that old piece of shark lore that most shark attacks happen in three feet of water.

Jessica, do you ever go into three feet of water?

No, which to me proves the point that like it has to be some pre-arranged scenario for this fight to even happen.

Yeah, because Jessica already pointed out she's only fighting the shark for money.

Or like my honor.

The two reasons that you would be fighting a shark were dystopia or money.

Yeah.

I would do it for my honor, too.

Wait, Wait, like if the shark accused you of being an adulterer or something?

I meant like to prove I wouldn't actually do it to prove Natasha wrong because I don't want to fight a shark.

Like, that's the main thing.

I don't want to fight a shark.

Right.

You don't want to hurt.

You don't want to hurt a little old great white charge.

No, I really don't.

Especially after taking all these notes.

I really like sharks now.

You're

all around.

All around the country and indeed the world, sharks who are listening to this are taking their gloves off their fins and throwing them down on the ground to challenge you to a duel, Jessica.

But I promise you this show only be a hypothetical duel of fates and honor.

Jessica, can you describe what the physical context you imagine is for this fight?

Because

you've alluded to it being a setup, but you haven't clearly described

where you're imagining this taking place.

If it's a dystopia, it's got to be a thunderdome of some kind, right?

right?

Yeah, I pictured like a thunderdome eyes version of Marine World Africa USA or something.

This sounds great.

Yeah, you should build a thunderdome over the like orca pit or the dolphin zone at Marine World.

Yeah.

You mentioned the Monterey Bay Aquarium.

Maybe you as a future dystopian warlord take over the aquarium and just fight all the animals in it.

I wouldn't be the warlord.

I would be like, so I don't want to fight animals.

So I would.

I'm just an outsider who would kill you.

Yes, I would be some sort of like, yeah, it would be like, oh, you have to do this or, you know, they're going to kill a bunch of orphans.

And like, I have to say that.

Bad news, Jessica.

Bad news.

The animals want to fight you because you've been talking a lot of shit.

That's right.

Yeah, probably.

So, yeah, maybe the dystopia is like the animals are, you know, the leaders in their mind.

Set the stage, hypothetically.

I mean, literally think of the stage.

This is going to be an exposition fight.

between Jessica and a great white shark.

You would have to make it a fair fighting ground for both parties.

That is a.

Well, just by saying ground, automatically, it's anti-shark.

Okay, so it would be like a wading pool.

I've got to both these terms if I was.

It would be a wading pool.

It would be the three feet of water that you mentioned.

So therefore, it would be in a, you know, the shark could live, but then

I would still have the advantage because one, I can learn to swim.

I just haven't.

So if I knew it was going to happen, I would obviously take the time to learn to swim.

A shark cannot learn to walk.

I don't know.

There's a lot of classes at my community pool

for walking on land.

Jessica,

is this pool maybe, can we imagine it to be the size of the performance pool at a like a an aquatic park, like a Marine World Africa USA?

Sure.

It can be like where Free Willie was.

Yeah, there's like enough room for dolphins to swim around and do tricks, but it's relatively shallow compared to a pool like that because you're standing in it.

Yes.

I think that's a good assumption.

Okay.

And you're fighting a great white shark.

Are you allowed to bring

weapons in there like knives or guns or shark repellent?

I think that's a very good question.

And I would have the foresight to do that.

And there's also a thing called shark suits, which are wetsuits that are basically a type of like micro chain mail.

I thought you were going to dress as an orca.

It would be like an orca print shark suit.

Jennifer, can you share the orca suit that I

imagined?

I did some research into orca suits because I know that Jessica planned to use an orca suit to scare the shark away for one year.

For one year, a whole year.

From its preferred hunting ground.

I mean, this could become an annual event in that case.

That's one of my concerns.

But let's take a look at the suit that I'm imagining Jessica wearing, and then

I can just find out how our litigants feel about that.

So,

obviously, all of these images will be available on our showpage at maximumfund.org, as well as all of our social media.

You could be watching it right now on YouTube.

Jessica, go ahead.

Are you saying that would not that would not scare a shark away?

Because

correct.

Because my number one question is, is a shark scared by a standing up orca who only has its ankles in the water?

I would imagine it has to simulate real orca-ness in terms of body movement.

I can do that.

No, you can't swim.

I can lay.

in the pool in this suit and do some flopping.

Jessica, you're on camera right now.

Would you mind sharing just an upper torso version of what you're describing?

I can do that.

So it would be like,

you know,

some orca movements.

Orca movements.

Yeah, some of those orca movements.

I'll tell you what, if I saw, if I saw this guy wearing this orca suit, I would, I would not be, I would not be afraid of getting mauled by an orca.

Devastating, fierce creatures that they are.

I'd be afraid of getting roofied at a Halloween party.

Yeah.

All right, let's break break it down.

Let me just make sure I understand this.

We have a large wading pool, three feet of water, so that you can stand and the shark can splash about and swim.

We're talking about an average-sized Carcharchonius, great white shark.

That's what Linnaeus called it.

Carcharidon Carcharius.

It's going to be taking its investcatic

bites.

It's average size, so that's about 15 to 16 foot long for a female, a little bit shorter for a male.

So let's just say 13, 14, 15 feet, 15 foot sharp, 15 foot sharp.

You're going in dressed as a chain male orca.

You said you had some weapons that you were going to deploy.

Okay, so if I'm allowed to bring tools, which are.

Hey, it's your scenario.

Well, Natasha argues that it's not my scenario.

She has specific.

Well, I'm giving you.

Hey.

Yeah.

Natasha isn't the judge here.

That's true.

I'm giving you free reign to describe your scenario.

Orca suit, chain mail.

What

melee weapons are you bringing in?

So they have shark repellent.

Right.

And they also have.

Wait, hold on.

By they, do you mean Batman?

I mean.

From the 19th.

No, there is literally shark

in the movie.

There's literally shark repellent that you can purchase, not just like in your little bat tool belt thing, but it was in his helicopter, but continuous.

Yeah.

But sharks also in their snout area are incredibly sensitive to electromagnetic like pulses.

Yeah.

And so you could have just some very strong magnets that would deter the sharks.

Talking about using a magnet to disrupt their electromagnetic sense or using the magnet to hit the shark in the nose.

Either.

Both.

Porque no los dos.

Yeah, exactly.

Porque no los dos.

I bet you could get one of those magnet fishing setups and then you could hit the shark in the nose, disrupt its senses, and pull a rusty bicycle out of a river.

There we go.

Would you be deploying any

live baby seals as decoys?

I would not.

No.

I will not use live.

Yeah.

Well, and I love it.

It's just a creature in an unnatural habitat being gawked at by hundreds of spectators.

But apparently it wants to fight you.

It's a person in a chainmail orca suit.

I was just told that this fight's happening because I've been talking too much.

Species.

And so that's why the shark wants to fight me.

So the shark asked for it in this scenario.

In this scenario, the shark has willingly signed up for this match.

Yes, the shark.

Yeah, the shark entered a lottery in one.

Natasha, you've heard the whole scenario.

Do you, in this specific scenario, do you feel that Jessica would triumph?

or that your friend would become chum

chum also half of the tools that she just named are repellents.

And so the shark's not approaching her.

It's not like hand-to-fin combat, which is what I'm picturing.

That's what a fight is.

It's not Jessica enters three feet of water, puts out every electromagnetic pulse possible, and the shark never comes within 100 feet of her.

That's not winning a fight.

Well, how would you define victory in this case, Jessica?

I would define victory as,

you know, the shark leaves.

Yeah, so Jessica very clearly stated earlier on the very bold and unusual assertion that if a shark swum up to her, ate her arm, left her bleeding from the armhole,

and swam away, that she won that fight.

Survival is the definition of winning.

Is that what you're saying, Jesse?

That's what Jessica is asserting.

Now, I would question whether the shark even can swim away

in a performance tank at Marine World Africa USA.

The reality is it's not going to get more than 100 or so feet away.

Well, I would say if it appears like it's wanting to leave, then it's forfeiting at that point.

Judge Hodgman, I think I have a relevant example from real life.

I'd love to hear it.

And I'm really glad that you brought up seals

Because a friend of ours, John Richmuth of the sketch comedy group Casper Hauser, was once attacked by a seal in the San Francisco Bay.

Jessica, would you say that a harbor seal is a more or less fearsome creature than a great white shark?

I would say slightly less, perhaps.

Yeah, it's like maybe like 200 pounds or something rather than like a thousand pounds or whatever.

And it basically just eats little sardines and stuff.

And John Richmond.

Okay, so this is

just a few quick excerpts from the ABC 7 web article, Berkeley Man Bitten by Harbor Seal.

I thought it was a sea lion or a small shark, not like a great white, said Richmuth.

But when he came face to face with it,

Richmith says it was clearly a harbor seal attacking him during an open water swim.

I had my hands on it and punched it, but it was kind of a melee.

And then it took off, said John Richmith.

The harbor seal bit Richmith's left ankle and left a large gaping wound.

Its fangs also punctured four holes in his right leg just below his knee.

It was really clamped on at that point.

I was actually thinking very briefly about whether it was going to take me under.

So I don't have John's number in my phone,

but I did text his twin brother, James Richmond.

Excuse me, identical twin brother.

Yeah, his identical twin brother, who I believe we can stipulate is

a fair broker in this situation.

And I have seen them both together.

It's not just John living a double life.

I asked James, would you say John won or lost his fight with the harbor seal?

This is what James said.

I think it speaks directly to Jessica's assertions.

If you were in a fight with a guy in a bar and you walked away and he had to go to the ER and get stitches and had scars for the rest of his life, dot, dot, dot,

then he said, although John will tell you that he definitely got a couple of really solid punches in on the seal's face.

And his final verdict was lost

and then he sent me a picture of John with a giant bandage on his leg

I mean under the under the Richmouth scenario Jessica you getting your arm chewed off the shark goes away that is not you winning that fight that is you escaping with your life

but the actual person who that who the the seal attack happened to he would think he did win i would say the twin twin is a biased opinion because of course a twin, like, you know, that's something you can like, you can joke about.

You know, I'm an only child, so I don't understand sibling dynamics, but I imagine that siblings do that kind of thing where they want to roast each other and be like, ah, you lost a fight to a SEAL.

So of course he's going to say that.

You clearly have the blind arrogance of the only child.

I do, yeah.

I knew there was a reason that I liked you, Jessica.

Natasha, are you an only child?

No, I'm the youngest of five, so I do not have the confidence that Jessica inherently possesses.

You know a little something about losing fights.

Yes.

I was just going to say you've actually.

And realism.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, let's, I'm bored of realism.

Let's get back to fantasy.

The dystopian fantasy is this case.

And in the scenario that you have chosen, Jessica,

waiting pool.

Shark has signed on to fight.

You're dressed as an orca.

You've got repellents and magnets.

how do you define victory is it like if you're both still standing after five minutes do you have to i mean do you have to wound or mortally wound the shark if you if you get bitten but you survive is that victory what is victory just so that i know i would say it's it's the shark giving up i would say whoever gives up first

if the shark if the shark surrenders and yeah goes and cowers at the other end of the tank while you raise your giant magnets up in your hand.

I would.

To the cheering of the mutants who live in this dystopian

wasteland.

All right.

In the orca outfit.

He's obviously in the orca outfit.

Natasha, even in this hypothetical scenario,

do you maintain that Jessica could not win the fight of the shark?

Remember, the shark has agreed to fight.

So the shark's in it to win it.

I'm willing to say that I would consider it like it's possible, not likely, but possible.

But I would also say that she comes up with a new hypothetical literally every time we talk about this.

And it's been four years.

The judge came up with this hypothetical.

Okay, but you led him down a primrose path with that.

Let's talk about how far back this goes.

Now, there is an exhibit C here, which is a photo of Jessica Yu with a shark.

Yes.

Can we take a look at that?

Right.

Now, obviously

you're not in the water with a shark.

It looks like you're at an aquarium and a shark is swimming by.

And I don't think this is a great white shark, but it's definitely a shark.

And it looks like you're shaking your fist at it.

Yes.

Old man yells at cloud stuff.

Yeah, that's exactly it.

This was at the shed aquarium.

My friend Jen took this photo because even when I'm not with Natasha, I'm still thinking about, you know, I'm aware of sharks.

I'm thinking about how to beat the sharks.

Yeah.

And this shark.

is cowering and leaving the scene.

Well,

I'm not sure the shark can even see you on that side of the glass, but

well, he's certainly not coming at me.

Right.

Okay.

You're also several feet below it

because

he's above you.

Right.

So, Natasha, do you get photos of Jessica shaking her fists at sharks and other

goads like this often?

Yes.

Jessica is my funniest friend.

This has been a long ongoing dispute, but also joke between us for many years.

And so if anything even rhymes with shark,

we will be engaging with each other

about this issue.

On this issue.

Yes.

Jessica, I'll ask you a serious question.

How does it feel

when Natasha says over and over again, no,

you cannot beat a shark in a fight?

Does it feel worse than when she tried to feed you to that alligator?

How does it feel when your friend doesn't believe in you?

I was also going to refer back to the alligator incident.

And, you know, it's not the first time Natasha's betrayed me.

And I love and forgive her every time, even like the, you know, the alligator incident.

So it's okay.

Not everyone's perfect.

For the record, I have not forgiven her for the slander on national television, but, and now on a national podcast.

Or to the, I also slandered you to the National Park Service.

True.

So how did you slander Natasha to the National Park Service, Jessica?

And they had a post about, like, you know, watch out for bison.

And I replied and said, well, what about if a, you know, a guest on your Everglades National Park attempted to feed another guest to an alligator?

And they replied, like, you know, that's, that's not approved either.

Yeah, that would probably be suboptimal from the point of view of the National Park.

And they didn't like it.

Yeah.

So long as it's still funded.

I mean, I'll.

It happened a few years ago.

If it's probably handed over to whatever billionaire wants it, they're probably going to insist that people get pushed into alligators' way for fun.

That's, yeah, that's the dystopian I'm thinking of.

Yeah.

So,

Natasha, you would like me to rule that we eliminate all

elaborate hypothetical scenarios and instead force Jessica to acknowledge that if Jessica were in three to four feet of water in the ocean and a shark came and attacked her, that she would lose in the fight, correct?

Correct.

To me, that's what the question that started this whole thing, that was the basis of the question.

I can beat the wild animal.

That inherently to me means in its natural habitat, in a natural setting, that you would encounter that wild animal, not the Jules octagon waiting pool with every tool in the book.

Like, so, yes, I would like a ruling on wild habitat, natural circumstances.

Wild habitat, natural circumstances.

But as you, I think, Jessica has pointed out, under natural, like, let's just be plain here.

Great white shark attacks are very rare

in terms of marine, never mind ground fatalities.

So the natural habitat, it probably wouldn't ever happen.

Exactly.

And you would argue that's because all sharks are cowards, right, Jessica?

Sure.

We could say all sharks are cowards, but now that's just going to make more of them sign up for the fight lottery.

But

they don't attack people.

Don't worry about it.

Sharks don't listen to podcasts.

They can't even walk.

That's true.

But Jessica, can I say to you, it's not going to be a fight lottery.

It's going to be a fight tournament.

Only the finest fighter will fight you.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's, you know, I hadn't thought of that scenario, but

I mean, that's okay.

Why does it bother you, Natasha, that Jessica keeps this idea alive?

I actually don't think it bothers me.

I don't think this case has a crux.

I'm sorry.

You guys are brilliant at coming up with the emotional cruxes.

It might have one for Jessica.

It never occurred to me that this could be hurting her feelings because she's always so confident.

I love Jessica.

I'm happy if this continues.

I just want an authority figure such as yourself to be on my side.

And I guess that would tip the poll.

from

the poll's over.

I am not on Twitter anymore.

As the youngest of five siblings, are you the youngest of five or the youngest of six?

Five.

Five.

I'm the fifth.

As the youngest of five siblings, no one's ever been on your side.

No.

Except maybe your mommy and daddy.

No.

Not even them.

Whereas Jessica is an only child, the whole world is on your side all the time.

And I am usually on Natasha's side a lot.

She is.

Yeah.

Just not in this.

Whose side would Alex, the Jeopardy champion, be on?

That's a good question.

That is a good question.

I don't know.

Yeah, he dropped out of the server a long time ago.

So he actually wasn't around when this fight, when this dispute came up.

Jessica, you want me to rule not only that you could beat a shark in a fight, both in natural and unnatural environments, but also

that Natasha did attempt to push you into the jaws of an alligator, right?

That would be an ideal ruling, yes.

Natasha says that there's no crux here, Jessica, but you're still sending her images of you threatening sharks.

It still

lurks in your mind.

Why is this important to you?

I think that

it's important for everyone to know that they can beat a shark because I don't think it's just me personally that could.

I think Natasha could beat a shark.

I think any of you could beat a shark because we have opposable thumbs and sharks don't.

So

naturally,

we are evolved to fight creatures.

Now, look, I don't have a notebook full of shark facts, but

I'm

pretty sure I'm right when I say sharks don't bite with their thumbs.

They don't.

They do investigate the city.

The name of the movie is not a marine thumb to your eye.

Name of the movie.

But that's what I would do.

I would do a thumb to their eye because I have

in

my notebook of shark facts

that shark eyes are covered by a nictating membrane and that would not protect their eyes against a digit.

It doesn't have to be a thumb.

It could be an index finger.

I was any type of.

You know, I did point out that there are

very few

fatal and even non-fatal great white shark attacks.

I mean, you hear about them when they happen, right?

Because they're obviously, you know, point of cultural imagination.

But those people who were who were bitten by or killed by great white sharks or other sharks?

Are you saying that they're just weaklings who didn't use their thumbs correctly?

Is that what you want to say to their families?

No, that is not what I want to say to their families.

I have it on record that you want to say that to their families.

No.

What do you want to say to their families, Jessica?

I want to say I'm very sorry for their loss and the fact that their loved one was taken off guard by a shark that was confused and bit them.

So it wasn't, it wasn't the fair fight in the sin, like the scenario we're talking about yeah yeah well i'll give you both a chance for another immediate summary judgment i want you if you can to remember one of

the i guess not questions but answers that you were presented on jeopardy and see if you can stump the judge

do you remember which one you won on or which one you wish you had won on we didn't win yeah we both came in second place okay no i came in third oh okay sorry jessica Jessica came in third.

There's the crux.

There's the crux, Joel.

Jesse, there's the crux.

Jessica came in third.

She's an only child.

Natasha came in second as the last of five.

That's a win for Natasha, but that's a horrible loss for Jessica.

No wonder Jessica wants to win.

No wonder Jessica wants to chomp onto this with

both rows of her teeth.

But do you have a Jeopardy Jeopardy questioner prompt that you want to try to stump me with?

You want to go first, Natasha?

Sure.

I remember both of my daily doubles.

I hit two daily doubles.

One of them is baseball related.

So I could probably stump the judge, but I'm sure it wouldn't stump Jesse.

Jesse is allowed to buzz in.

Okay.

The category was like starts with W.

And it was something like,

this is the word for the sweet spot in a

of a batter, like a baseball batter.

This is their sweet spot.

Buzz.

What is

withers?

No.

Jesse, do you have a guess?

This is a batter's sweet spot or a bat's sweet spot.

You usually say the bat has a sweet spot.

Okay, no, it's definitely not the bat.

It's not like the ding on a bat.

It's like where a batter would love to have the pitch thrown like so that it's.

Wheelhouse.

What is wheelhouse?

Oh, okay.

Good job, Natasha.

You stumped me, but you knew that you would.

Yeah.

All right, Jessica, you have a chance to win it all here.

That sounds familiar.

So mine, the only question I can remember is the one that I lost it all on because I was in lead.

I can imagine you're lost forever.

Yeah.

I was leading going into Final Jeopardy.

And if you're in first place, you have to bet enough to cover second place doubling their money.

So I had to bet a lot of money.

And so I bet pretty much all of my money.

And the category was children's literature.

Here we go.

So it was this winged character from an early 20th century work is named because she mends the pots and kettles.

Who is Tinkerbell?

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

See you later.

I'm going to go to the champions lounge.

Be back in a a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jessica, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

As I feel in all things, I'm very confident.

You have only had an older sibling to beat that out of you.

Yeah, I didn't get that.

So.

Natasha, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling okay.

I feel like the judge understood maybe the difference between natural scenario versus completely fake waiting pool scenario.

So hopefully we get a good ruling.

Do you think you could beat a harbor seal, Jessica?

Yes, absolutely.

I could beat any wild animal.

I don't believe that.

I know.

I wish I didn't believe that, but I do.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're taking a quick break.

What have you got going on, John?

Well, Jesse, summer is coming to a close soon.

I will return to my regular chambers there in Brooklyn, New York.

But before I leave my summertime chambers here at WERU.org in Orland, Maine, I just want to say thank you to all of you, Judge John Hodgman listeners.

And I know that there are more than one of you who called in and pledged your support for WERU, a community radio station that's losing a huge chunk, I think, a third of its budget.

due to the government clawing back money from the corporation for public broadcasting they just completed their big pledge drive uh i hear it was a real success right joel huge huge success uh but please remember to support your local community radio local community journalism local community artists and of course please continue to listen to weru.org you can always support this station as well as your local station anytime during the year just as you can become a member of maximum fund anytime during the year these independently owned media operations really, really only thrive on your support.

So we're very grateful to have yours.

Jesse, what's going on in your world?

Well, we've had some really cool guests on Bullseye that I hope people will check out.

Marley Matlin,

the Oscar Award-winning actor, there's a beautiful,

beautiful documentary about her life

that includes like, among other things,

she had a relationship with William Hurt when

they were making a film together.

It was very tumultuous and ultimately abusive.

And I found out that after she went to rehab and moved to Los Angeles from Chicago, where she was from,

she lived at Henry Winkler's house for two years.

She just showed up at Henry Winkler's door, knocked on the door and said, I don't have anywhere to go.

And Henry Winkler and his wife said, come into our house and live with us for two years.

Anyway, she is so cool and so funny and awesome.

She actually, she's been working with the same interpreter.

She's deaf and she can speak, but prefers to use ASL.

And she's had the same interpreter since back then, so 35, 40 years.

And they're like best buds and business partners.

And he is such an extraordinary interpreter for ASL that I think this will play every bit as well on the radio as it would if you're watching the video and

use ASL.

And Bullseye is on video now.

And Bullseye is on video.

So if you prefer to watch the ASL, that is also available to you.

We also have Al Jardine from the Beach Boys on the show.

And this is a weird one, but I want to recommend it.

This guy called Viktor Kosakovsky.

He directed this movie called Architecton.

It is a sort of massive scale documentary about rocks,

basically, and architecture

that is essentially a sort of like slow-moving argument for permanence and beauty in the built world, and or at least relative permanence.

And he's a he's Russian.

He lives in Barcelona.

The interview is in English.

He is one of the most fascinating people I've ever talked to in my life.

You just

really lovely.

Yeah, it was really, really cool.

The movie, movie is amazing, too.

And also, while I'm at it, you know, autumn is just around the corner, John.

It is.

And we have so many beautiful things in the Put This On shop.

So please go to putthisonShop.com.

Among other things, I just got a, we have a raft of flight jackets,

beautiful leather flight jackets for your autumn use, and also a lot of ladies' things in the shop right now.

Not just jewelry, including jewelry, but also a lot of beautiful clothes as well.

So go to putthisonshop.com and go get yourself some stuff for autumn at the put this on shop.

PutthisonShop.com.

You deserve something beautiful for autumn.

I agree.

I agree.

Yeah.

Go get it.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Now, look,

this program is edited.

We have a wonderful video editor named Daniel Speer.

We have a wonderful audio editor named A.J.

McKeon.

But I am going to present for you right now a legal document.

This is a deposition from both A.J.

and Daniel.

They did not edit the time it took for me to present the correct response.

Who is Tinkerbell?

That happened in real time.

Daniel says it right here.

AJ says it right here.

That happened in real time.

Joel, you would attest to that, right?

Yes.

You did not know how nervous I was, Jessica, after my horrible loss on the wheelhouse prompt.

That one went straight to a part of my brain that I haven't visited for a long time, the brain that gets things right.

Tinkerbell.

Who is Tinkerbell?

I got that one right in real time.

You're looking at an only child who is extremely proud of himself right now.

And I'm happy for you.

Jessica, I'm an only child.

It's my turn to talk.

Okay.

I've never experienced this one.

I can tell.

I can tell.

You think there's a reason?

You think there's a reason why I love putting on these robes and getting this gavel and pushing people around?

It's because I'm an only child.

This is the way we were born to live.

We were born to live and to win hypothetical fights because for for us, the fights were always hypothetical.

We didn't have to live with what Natasha put up with, the constant pushback and reevaluation of argument that Natasha had to go through in order just to be heard

in her family.

For you, it was always the case.

You could shake your fist at anything that was floating above you when you were protected by a five-foot wall of glass in an aquarium because nothing was ever going to get to us, Jessica, because we're only children.

That's true.

Conflict was not how I was raised.

Avoidance of conflict, that's a fight I'll win every time.

I never got into sports, so I couldn't even rehearse conflict.

And perhaps that's what gives me an unfair confidence.

But not even I

necessarily believe

could win a fight

with a shark.

I've seen the scars on James Richmond's leg from a harbor seal.

I saw a harbor seal last night in the water here in Maine, and it freaked me out.

I've also,

around here in our neighborhood of Maine, heard tell of harbor seals washing up ashore with big chunks bit out of them.

Because there are great whites up here in Maine now.

They are following the warm waters and the food.

And you would not believe how the authorities literally described cause of death for this harbor seal that washed up on our friend's shore with a big chunk bitten out of it, obviously by a shark.

They said boating accident.

That was their obscure cultural reference to jaws.

It wasn't.

These sharks, you're right that they're not looking for a fight.

They're just looking for a food.

But there was a person

in Harpswell just a couple of years ago who was attacked and killed by a great white shark here in Maine.

because that shark was confused.

They were not hunting human flesh, but they get, they're not smart either.

They do get confused.

And I would say that

while there are techniques to defend yourself from a shark attack, I mean, historically, I did learn from comic books that if you punch a shark in the nose, it's very sensitive there, as you pointed out, Jessica, and that that will drive them off.

But I would say that, you know,

in almost any scenario, shark is a natural predator with many rows of teeth

and lots of biting experience under its belt.

And it doesn't wear a belt because it doesn't wear trousers because sharks can't walk, they can swim.

Formidable foe, I would say.

Now,

I will say this, Jessica, in your scenario.

We get a big wading pool three feet deep.

We

bring it to the Blue Hill Fair.

We charge admission.

Shark goes into the water.

You go into the water.

You're wearing a chainmail orca suit.

You've got shark repellent.

You've got magnets.

The shark, I guess, has signed up for this fight.

In this scenario,

I do think you would beat the shark.

Because you see it coming.

You've got the advantage of being in a relatively natural environment, which is

the carnival atmosphere of

an end-of-summer fair.

Shark's going to, I don't care what the shark sign, shark is not fighting at its best in three feet of water.

Not fighting at its best.

Frankly, I think it would be horrified and immediately terrified and confused.

And for you to beat that shark would mean that you're a bad person.

But you could do it.

It would be a gruesome display.

We'd all make a lot of money.

We would.

And the shark signed something.

I mean, I have its signature right here.

Yeah.

That said,

I don't want you to do that ever.

I don't want to do that.

Well, it sounds like you want to, but the main thing is it would be cruel to a shark.

Sharks just trying to live out there.

And while they can be fearsome creatures and

horrible tragedies have happened when sharks have mistaken humans for their natural prey, they are just trying to live.

You don't want to bring a fight to a shark.

And here's the thing.

If you are out there in the water,

first of all, you can't swim.

Even if you are a championship open water swimmer, you saw what a harbor seal did to John Richmond.

I'm telling you right now,

and it pains me, because only child to only child, I love your confidence.

Natural environment, shark wins every time.

Every time.

It doesn't need thumbs when it's got jaws.

I hope you never face a shark in any kind of fight.

I won't.

Because I do believe that you would fight hard.

Let me say this.

Based on this conversation,

you wouldn't go down without a fight.

It's for sure.

You've thought about it.

You might be able to bring some of your thinking to the moment, but in its natural environment, without being able to swim, I'm afraid you're going to go down.

Sorry.

But in the dystopian carnival environment that you envision,

you would win, but we would all lose.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Fish are friends, not food.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge john hodgman exits the courtroom natasha how do you feel about this verdict i feel good um i i got the ruling i wanted and i'm happy that jessica can beat up on sad little dying sharks in octagon waiting pools look we're all happy that she can beat up on sad little dying sharks

You don't have to say it.

It's self-evident.

Jessica, how are you feeling about the verdict?

I feel fine about the verdict because today is Natasha's birthday and, you know, I'll give her this gift.

Natasha, Jessica, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you for having me so much for having us.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor, the Rue Barbarian, another classic Reddit name, John.

For naming this week's episode Probable Jaws.

We are on Reddit at r/maximum r slash fun where you can chat about this episode and suggest names for future cases.

You can find the evidence from this show posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

John, don't worry, I have sent Jennifer both the picture of the orca suit and the picture of John Richmond drinking a beer with his leg away.

Oh, good.

So we'll have that for our evidence available as soon as you listen to the show.

Both of those.

yeah both of those will be available you can find us on tick tock and youtube at judge john hodgman pod and we encourage you to subscribe to us in both locals

uh to check out both full episodes of the program and video only content jesse speaking of video only content Our YouTube commenter of the week is YouTube user very nearly a person who writes, these videos are nicely done.

Thank you, very nearly a person.

They go on to say, of all the podcasts that are now on YouTube, you all have the best videos.

I would say that even if you weren't already my favorite podcast, thank you very much, very nearly a person.

In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say you're a whole human being in your own right, as is everyone who listens to the show and watches it on YouTube.

If you are watching it on YouTube, please take a moment.

to follow, like, subscribe, and share, and comment.

All of it helps people discover the podcast in a new way over there at Judge John Hodgman pod.

And indeed, any review or any way that you can share the show with anyone that you know really helps us a lot.

So I thank you in advance for sharing in the newfangled ways and the old fangled ways.

Here's an old fangled way.

Joel.

Yep.

You ever listened to Judge John Hodgman?

Yep.

Okay, pretend you didn't.

What is that a podcast?

Yeah, listen to it, Joel, okay?

We did it.

That's how it's done.

But don't only suggest, don't only suggest it to Joel, though, just to be clear.

Yeah, everyone go on Instagram and at Joel Mann.

You have a Joel in your life.

Suggest it to your Joel.

Okay, Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Corey McCain at Just Push Record Studios in Austin, Texas.

Aptly named.

And by the Creators Clubhouse in Atlanta, Georgia, and by Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine.

Our social media manager is Dan Telford.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video editor is Daniel Spear.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmury.

Okay, you ready for Swift Justice, Judge Hodgman?

I'm ready.

Whiskey standard on the Max Month subreddit says, My wife always cranks the car air conditioner on full blast and she sets it to hit her face and legs.

She could use less power if she just did face for cold and feet for hot, because that's how air moves.

What?

But she won't listen to me.

Cool moves down.

Cool air goes down.

Warm air goes up.

Okay.

I think I understand what you're saying, whiskey standard, but I mean, you're talking about

blowing on feet,

blowing hot air on the feet and cold air on the face?

Yes, exactly.

So that the cool air that blows on your face would then descend down towards your...

What are these kids driving around in, a MCDLT?

That's an old time reference.

for an old McDonald's sandwich where they kept the hot hot and the cool cool, right, Jesse?

That's before before my time, but I've heard tell.

I don't even know how you run the air conditioner that way, where you make it hot on the feet.

You don't have a button on your car that puts the top.

So you wouldn't do it at the same time.

Isn't that what they're talking about?

No, they're talking about if they're using the air conditioner, you use the top part so that your face cools from the top and then

the cool air settles down towards your feet.

Or if you're using warm air, you shoot it at your feet because then your feet get warm, but the warmth heads up towards your head.

That's what they're talking about.

I don't know what to say.

Whiskey standard.

Two different scenarios.

We're all trying to be a little bit more ecologically considerate.

I am, after all, broadcasting today from the solar-powered studios here at WERU, which powers the incredible, the power of the intensely hot sun is powering the incredibly cold air conditioning in here.

And I'm going to say it's a little chilly in here, Joel, because I'm wearing shorts under these robes.

Yeah, it is.

I should have worn my long pants.

Point is, we're all trying to be ecologically conscious, whiskey standard.

I get it.

But if your wife is blowing cold air on her face and legs, that's probably because her face and legs are hot.

You should be more concerned about your wife's comfort than how much power you're consuming in general.

And save your scheme for when you're driving in the car alone.

Sorry, I find in favor of the wife who's a whole human being in her own right with her own face.

her own hot face and her own hot legs.

John, I'm wearing shorts too.

And I just looked down when you mentioned that you were wearing shorts and the tails in front of my bailiff jacket are covering up my shorts completely.

So when I looked down, I thought, oh, am I not wearing pants?

You have to check.

You have to check for you to do a pants check every now and then.

It looks like I'm fully nude.

Like it truly looks like the entire bottom half of my body is

plain air right now.

I'm going to go ahead and stand up for the people watching YouTube so they can see my shorts.

Save that for the blooper reel.

Hey, we're talking about shark attack and alligators and so forth.

I want to hear some more wild animal disputes.

Do you have a friend who says koala bear, even though they're not a bear?

If you had a non-traditional pet that was ethically okay, hypothetically, if you wanted to keep as a pet something other than a cat or a dog or an axolotl or whatever, like what.

Like what kind of, what kind of wacky pet would you like, Joel, if you could get one?

Like a giraffe?

Hippopotamus.

All right.

hippopotamus.

Very cute, very meme-worthy these days.

What is your deadly?

Also very deadly.

It's true.

Does your partner like to rescue small animals in peril and you'd rather let nature take its course, if you will?

Send us your wild animal disputes to maximumfund.org slash JJ H O or email me directly at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

All of your wild animal disputes are welcome here, as well as all of your other disputes, right, Jesse?

Indeed.

No matter what your dispute is, you can submit it to us at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO or email us at hodgman at maximumfund.org.

That is where we get disputes for

docket clearing.

That's where we get our disputes for these big case episodes.

That's where we get our disputes for live shows.

That's where John gets disputes for his column net in the New York Times.

This is the source of Judge John Hodgman content other than us.

So please do send us something at maximumfund.org/slash JJ

H O.

And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.