Turtle Power of Attorney

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Turtle Power of Attorney.

Kaylin brings the case against her husband, Adam.

In their neighborhood in Virginia, there's a roadside sign reminding drivers to slow down.

Adam says this sign looks like a turtle, which makes sense because turtles are slow.

Kaylin says Adam is wrong.

The sign is clearly supposed to be a child.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Is the sign turtly enough for the Turtle Club?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

You're in the desert walking along in the sand, and all of a sudden you see a tortoise and it's crawling toward you.

You reach down, you flip the tortoise on its back.

Tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over, but it can't.

Not without your help.

But you're not helping.

Why is that?

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Kaylin and Adam, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is a hare?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Kaylin and Adam, you may be seated for an immediate astonishment, Judge, and one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I reference as I enter the court?

I'm actually going to take it back.

I'm going to pose this as a question.

Answer in whatever way you feel represents you.

We'll go with you, Adam, first.

You're walking in the desert.

You see a tortoise.

You flip it over.

It's baking in the sun.

It can't survive unless you flip it back over.

It needs your help.

You're not helping.

Why aren't you helping?

I think because the tortoise had given me a dirty look on the way in, and so just needed to hang out on its back for a little bit.

But then I might, you know, walk away for a little bit, but then come back and flip it back over.

I don't think I could see it suffer for too long.

Let the record reflect that Adam made that statement with what can only be described as a feces-eating grin on his face.

All right.

Kaylin, what's your guess?

Oh, no, excuse me.

Why aren't you helping?

We have a four-year-old and an 18-month-old, so my hands are constantly full of either children or toys.

I think hands are full.

Like, I just physically can't reach down and flip over the turtle.

All right.

John, do I get to answer the question?

Of course, you may.

Because I'm a replicant.

Jesse, you're giving it away.

Well, it's too late now.

They got it wrong.

They gave those weird answers.

There aren't right or wrong answers to this particular test.

Kaylin, Adam, can you guess the piece of culture that I'm referencing when I ask you these questions?

Do they make you uncomfortable?

Well, now I'm still going to stick with my Franklin Fibs by Paulette Bourgeois book, guess, even though I know.

Oh, you had that pre-loaded?

Yes.

Who's Paulette Bourgeois?

That's cool.

She wrote the Franklin Children's series of children's books and looking through the list of titles of

Franklin books.

Yeah, Franklin Fibbs.

It's Franklin.

That was from the cartoon.

Yeah.

All right.

What about you, Adam?

Did you have a preloaded guess or do you have a correct guess for the piece of culture that we're paraphrasing while we're talking about this?

You know, I was hoping it was going to be Happy Together by the Turtles, in which case we could have karaoke time all together.

You know that one, right, Joel?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Happy Together.

Yeah.

Okay, good.

That's by the Turtles.

By the Turtles.

Yeah.

And you know who they were?

Eddie and Flo?

They were Frank Zappa's band.

Flo and Eddie.

Yeah.

We're here talking with Joel Mann, Programs and Operations Director here at WERU.org and FM in Orland, Maine, 89.9 on your FM dial.

Why aren't you flipping this turtle over in the desert?

I wouldn't flip it back.

You wouldn't?

Oh, you wouldn't.

I'd let it just be on its back.

Yeah.

That's because you and Jesse are robots.

No, I like turtle soup.

Kaelin is human.

And Adam, I'm not so sure about.

We're going to have to ask you more questions on the vote comp

test, which is

the test that is administered by Blade Runners,

police officers in futuristic 2019 LA,

who use it as sort of

an elaborate polygraph test to see if

human-looking androids are humans or androids.

You ever see Blade Runner, Adam?

I have not, unfortunately.

Oh, my gosh.

I guess people don't see Blade Runner anymore.

You know what's distinctive about Blade Runner?

No, what?

It rules.

It's really great.

It's a really great movie.

It's really awesome movie.

It's a really great movie.

You know what's great about Blade Runner?

It's really beautiful.

It's really breathtaking.

See it in a theater if you ever get the chance.

Yeah, if you get the chance, maybe go to Belfast, see it at the Colonial Theater where I'm seeing movies this summer here in Maine.

Now we're going to get to this case because this is indeed about someone not walking along in the desert, but driving down the road in suburban outskirts of Washington, D.C.

And you claim you're seeing a turtle.

Is that right?

That's right.

Tell me more about that.

So I think this is a pretty common sign that people have.

It's a green,

small, I guess we could say creature, since this hasn't quite been decided yet.

I think it's a turtle.

It's turtle green.

It's sometimes holding a flag that says slow or it says slow on the thing itself.

And so it's often, you often find it in neighborhoods or around where people are supposed to drive a little bit more slowly.

It's a sign that people put out in front of their homes typically.

yes

encouraging drivers to drive more slowly and you say that this little figure holding the flag that says slow to you looks like a turtle that's right kaylin

you say that your beloved husband adam is out of his god or whatever damned mind correct correct yes what would you say that this sign is it is a human child well we'll get to that in a moment but let's go let's get some background here you are you two are married, correct?

We are, yes.

We are.

And how, and Kaylin, how did you two meet?

We met in graduate school or just before graduate school at a happy hour the day that before classes were going to start.

So we've been together for 13, 14 years now?

So you were both in the same graduate school?

We were, yes.

What were you studying respectively, if I may ask?

Both international relations.

Me, conflict management, and Adam, strategic studies.

So him, how the conflicts start and me, how they end.

You live around DC and you both have graduate degrees in international relations, and you're going to tell me that you're not spies, right?

Correct, yes.

Not at all involved in intelligence.

Not at all involved in intelligence, correct.

Got it.

We don't even work in international relations.

That's actually true.

No, we've both since changed careers since our immediate post-processing.

Well, then, what are your current cover stories then, Adam?

They work in an office.

I'm a financial planner.

An unmarked office.

Yeah.

So I'm I'm sorry, Adam, you are, you, you, you work.

What's your cover story, did you say?

I'm a financial planner.

Still sounds sketchy to me.

You mentioned that you both have, you have kids.

We do.

You have a career as well, Kaylin?

I do, yes.

I, um, and this is, it's going to sound like a terrible cover story.

I do research about the future of work, the impact of AI and the future workforce.

Oh, how's that looking?

Good?

Two thumbs up.

Two thumbs up.

We're doing great.

And Adam, when you met Kaylin, why were you talking about roller coasters?

Oh, yeah.

So we were at a happy hour with a lot of people.

And she had mentioned that she had, she grew up just north of Pittsburgh and spent a lot of time in Ohio.

And I really like roller coasters, including Cedar Point,

the capital of the world.

And so I believe after that happy hour, the roller coaster capital of the world.

Yes.

Well, John, don't speak so quickly.

You don't have a master's degree in international studies.

That's true.

I mean, mean, you can.

What am I to say?

You can see Canada from the top of the Millennium Force.

I mean, you know, that's international.

That's a direct Sarah Palin quote, I think.

Yeah, so exactly.

So, anyway, yes, I love roller coasters.

So, I thought that was a nice

point of potential commonality with Kalin.

Yes, I do remember very strongly walking away from that and being like, oh, that guy sitting next to me was very into roller coasters.

That was the primary, the primary takeaway.

Adam, I have two quick questions about roller coasters before we move into into this extremely consequential conversation about whether this sign is a turtle or a boy, or could it be both?

But first, about roller coasters, Adam, top roller coaster in the world for you?

I would say the Millennium Force at Cedar Point in Ohio.

Cedar Point, of course, being a point of pilgrimage for roller coaster enthusiasts from all over the world.

And you're saying that Millennium Force is the best.

Why?

I'm a Hills guy when it comes to roller coasters.

So

it's got a great straight downhill, none of the turning stuff that slows it down.

So you get the, you know, the good quick drop feeling.

So Kaylin, my question for you.

When you hear Adam back in graduate school meeting for the first time, always talking about how he loves riding down those steel hills, that roller coaster, hates inversions, hates turns.

You're like, I got to marry this guy, right?

Yeah, more or less.

I mean, I don't think he's right in his opinions on roller coasters either.

We have very different roller coaster opinions.

So I think that was maybe

because you grew up near Cedar Point.

You were there all the time.

I did.

Yeah.

Lots of like so.

You bonded over coasters.

You got married.

Everything was fine until you saw this sign in the road.

Truth.

Yes.

This little turtle and or boy holding up a literal red flag saying your marriage is about to

head downhill.

I don't know.

It all depends on today, I guess.

Do we have a photo of the sign that we can look at?

We do, yes.

What we're seeing here is

a sign that I've seen in both northern and southern California.

It is

electric green,

but also yellowish, not unlike the color of a tennis ball.

Which color, by the way, is optic yellow.

Yeah.

And it is

like injection molded plastic.

So it is hollow.

It is sort of like

the plastic that you would use to make plastic slide set that you would buy at a big box retail store and put together in your backyard.

It is

flat but three-dimensional, and it has a crossbar that supports the foot and keeps it from falling over sideways.

It also has a red baseball cap, unless for whatever reason, Adam thinks that's some kind of turtle hat.

We'll get to that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's not unprecedented that turtles will wear a little hat.

This image, of course, is on our show page at maximumfun.org, as well as all of our social media.

And if you're watching our YouTube channel at JudgeJohn Hodgman Bodd, you're looking at it right now, forming your own opinion.

But let's go to Kaylin for her opinion.

Kaylin, is this a turtle or a human child?

Definitely a human child.

Adam, how in the world is this a turtle?

I'd say a few things.

One, I mean, you can start,

you can just start on the surface that it's green.

Turtles, typically green.

No, they can be other colors as well.

So that's the first.

I think second,

the rounded back is quite shell-like, and some of these can vary just slightly.

I think that could potentially be a shell there.

Perhaps most importantly, though, is that turtles typically you'd associate them in your head with going slow.

So I think it's an attempt at the people who put them up to subliminally send a message to drivers that go by that they should be going slowly.

You see this sign as an example for drivers to follow.

Yeah, that it's right, that the drivers are supposed to be going slowly and that they'll think about going slowly, even if they, even if they don't even take a direct look at the sign, just having it in their field of vision, I think, could make them drive more slowly.

Adam, what signs in your life do you emulate?

Well, I mean, I think that's the point of the sign is to try to get people to slow down in the neighborhood.

So this is just working on several different levels.

So, Adam, you said that some turtles wear hats.

What evidence do you have to supply to that?

So, I actually think it's very possible that this

plastic figure is based on Franklin the Turtle from the classic stories and television show, Franklin, who wore a red baseball cap.

And the only thing that's missing here is Franklin's jaunty red scarf.

And so I'm wondering whether the people who made the signs didn't want to get too close to copyright infringement and left the scarf off.

And because I just say, too, growing up in the 90s, I don't remember seeing these out there.

I'm wondering whether these only popped up after Franklin became much more popular on TV.

You've never thought to slow down and even stop and look at the manufacturer of the sign and see if maybe you could do some research?

I have not.

No.

No.

Because when you see this slow down sign, you go real fast, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do we have an image of Franklin that we can take a look at?

Show me Franklin.

Yeah, look at that.

Oh, no.

I hate to say this, Kaylin, but Adam's theory is starting to make a little bit of sense.

Yeah, Judge Hodgman, to be Franklin, this looks a lot like that sign.

How dare you?

I will say, though, that Franklin is not wearing pants and a shirt like the child in the sign clearly has an outline of pants and a shirt.

And I'm going to be honest, Franklin looks proud that he's not wearing pants.

He's a turtle.

All he needs is a hat and a jaunty kerchief.

He's like, get a load of what I ain't got.

Exactly.

Right.

He's not hiding anything in his shell.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org/slash join.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Kaylin, what happens when you're driving along, the two of you, and Adam sees the sign?

Well, Adam and I both work from home.

And so typically we, a couple of days a week at least, have a walk that we go on.

And so we pass by the turtle regularly,

both by ourselves on our walks and on our walks with our two kids and he always greets the turtle out loud and says hi turtle and now it's become kind of a a ritual that he says hi so it's only when you're walking through the neighborhood you see the sign correct correct and i did not notice our pace changing at all upon adam seeing the turtle slow down at all no no i did not adam says adam you say hi turtle That's right.

It's a friendly greeting to our friend and who is unfortunately this specific one is tied up to a light post with a wire.

So I feel like this turtle deserves a little extra recognition.

Does he have a name other than turtle?

No, I haven't asked.

So I usually just greet with Hi Turtle.

Wait, you haven't asked the turtle if the turtle has a name?

I haven't.

I think I should.

I mean, he hasn't even looked at the manufacturer to find out if it's officially licensed.

True.

This isn't just between the two of you, though, right?

I understand there's a group, a group chat.

going on around this.

Yeah, that's true.

Well, especially, it has come up in, well, multiple group chats now.

This is maybe like one of the top five issues in our marriage, right?

That's why we're on John Hodgman, the ultimate group chat.

Yes, exactly.

One of the top five issues in your marriage.

I'm very happy.

I'm very happy for your marriage.

Thank you.

But no, so I have texted my family's group chat, to which Adam is a party because my parents like him more than any of their other children.

So this is my parents and my two siblings, in addition to Adam, and posted the picture.

And they are all all squarely team child with the exception of my dad who said that he reserves judgment and can quote see both sides and that earned him swift retribution in the group chat um i may have told him that this is how fascism wins um by people not taking a strong moral stand so that

escalated quickly and are you concerned that adam is poisoning your kids' brains by talking to an obvious little human and calling it turtle.

I am, yes, because we have an 18-month-old and he is just learning to speak and is in, he's very spongy, both physically, but like absorbency-wise.

And so

every time he hears something, he tends to repeat it and then he tends to repeat it a lot.

You're essentially concerned that your younger child will repeat it.

turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle.

Yeah, something like that.

Until the word has no meaning whatsoever.

Yeah.

Or until you filmed the film Master of Disguise starring Dana Carter.

Oh, okay.

I didn't.

That's an obscure cultural reference that I did not get.

And I believe, speaking of filmed entertainment, you took a video of your kids talking about this sign?

We did, yes.

So I quizzed them one day on a walk with the two kids to see what they thought it was.

Trying not to bias them too much, but yes, I did take a video.

And can we review this video?

Yeah.

Read.

Is that a turtle or is that a person?

Person.

Person?

It's a person.

It's a person.

Okay.

Not a turtle?

It's a person.

It's a person.

How do you know?

Because it has a hat.

Because it hats it's a person.

Because it has a hat.

That means it's a person.

Great.

Great.

You get dinner tonight.

She says.

Now, I was not on that walk, so I can't vouch for what sort of treats she gave them before or after that video was taken.

You're saying that this adorable video of your kids and strollers looking at this little sign and being really cute is a deep fake?

It's no, it's not a deep fake.

When I was just out with Reed yesterday, there's the two of us with that same sign, and I asked him what it was, and he said person.

So

can you name any other turtle that wears a hat?

I mean, I feel like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles at some point, they were in disguise and must have put one on.

I mean, I know they had the headband, but

they're mutant turtles.

Oh, that's true.

Judge Hodgman, I've done some independent research.

You know me.

I'm so glad.

How long have I been telling you to do your own research?

Yeah,

I searched on a popular e-commerce website.

Me too.

For this particular sign,

and I found a version of it.

It's, for one thing, shockingly affordable at $35 to my door.

There's some really interesting information here.

I was surprised.

I thought if I found, frankly, this sign, it would say...

I found Franklin the sign.

Yeah.

If I found this sign, it would say like kid playing in roads sign.

Right.

First of all, it does not.

It says kids at play signage for neighborhood safety reflective caution sign with warning flag.

Yeah.

It is described in the item specifics as yellow,

but

in the infographic that accompanies the item, it is described as having bright neon green coloring.

So disagreement on that front.

And there is nothing about whether it is a turtle or a child in the description.

It says that the vibrant neon body and reflector belt are easily visible during twilight hours, which is good.

and that the large slow sticker reminds drivers to reduce their speed, although the example that we've seen in Virginia there does not have that sticker anymore.

It also says, and I thought this was very interesting, while this sign alerts drivers to children playing, we have to keep teaching our children about pedestrian safety.

We must.

This is not the end-all and be-all of pedestrian safety.

No,

this doesn't solve things.

I mean, is this number one in industrial warning signs?

Yes.

But it's still not enough.

Well, Jesse, I did my own research too at one point during our conversation.

I also searched up this sign on a popular e-commerce website, but I got to it from a certain way.

Do you know what I did?

This was the first result that popped up when I entered into the search bar.

Slow down turtle sign.

And this was what popped up.

Wow.

That said, when I went to this listing for,

I would, I dare, I dare say that there are many corporations in many corners of other countries.

A lot of international relations are going on to bring these cheap signs to our,

not our doorsteps, well, our doorsteps first and then our driveway ends later.

And the description on this particular manufacturer says this kid at Play Safety Sign is an effective tool for neighborhood streets.

It features a friendly 32-inch tall man holding a red warning flag, which, frankly, is a third option that I hadn't considered.

Very small man.

Very small, 32-inch tall man, which is frankly terrifying.

Judge Hodgman, speaking of my independent research on this matter, my brother-in-law, Dan Hosfeld, like to use his full name just in case folks know Dan.

That's right.

It's a wonderful man.

He's also an environmental scientist and a former turtle professional.

Oh,

he was literally paid to identify turtles.

Yeah.

I texted Dan with a picture of the sign and the question: is this a turtle?

Are you prepared to hear the answer that he sent back?

Give me a sec.

Okay, I'm ready.

Wow, Kama.

Yes.

Kaylin, you have to acknowledge acknowledge this is a pretty turtly

child.

I mean, you can understand why Adam might have a difference of opinion here, right?

She's shell-shocked right now.

Now I definitely don't have to acknowledge anything.

Yeah, now that's exactly right.

You immediately begin divorce proceedings.

You don't even have to acknowledge your wedding vows.

I've only ever married one couple, but I've offered to divorce many.

And if you would like one,

I'll bang the gavel right now.

I'll keep it in mind.

Thanks.

I mean, yes, I can see how one might think that that is the other

option.

But to me, I mean, it is bipedal.

It is, it has opposable thumbs.

It's holding a flag.

Like Franklin, like Franklin.

I don't know if Franklin has thumbs, but all right.

But I mean, your point about it being a subliminal message.

to

tell people to slow down, I think it makes far more sense if it's just a child telling people that there might be children around.

That seems like a more direct logical link to what we want people to do from the sign.

So, in addition, I think it looks like a kid with a hat with a backpack.

I think it just makes more sense from a next steps perspective for it to be a child.

Adam, have you found anyone or any evidence to confirm or back up your idea that this is a turtle?

You know, I think part of the issue is that it can be, I'm fully willing to say if Caitlin wants to think it's a child, I think it could be a child.

It's possible.

I think the issue here is that she thinks it's nigh on impossible that it could be a turtle.

That's that's what I'm sort of proposing here.

So yeah, but that's also not a yes or a no to my yes or no question.

Do you have anyone else who agrees with you?

Other people agree with me, yes.

Lots of people, John.

Everybody's been talking about it and everybody agrees.

Yes, I think part of it, too, is that I think there's perhaps a minority of people who first see it as a turtle, but there are a lot, many more.

What evidence do you have that anyone sees this as a turtle?

Well, I think when you say it's a turtle, you often people say, oh, I never thought of it that way, but I can see how it is a turtle.

So I hopefully, you know, you're wonderful listeners.

You're the Eisenberg uncertainty turtle.

You're affecting the reaction by suggesting, asking a leading question.

Does that look like a turtle?

Let me ask you a question.

Can you see Joel Mann right now?

I can.

Does he look like a turtle?

He does not.

No, you're wrong.

He looks an awful lot like a turtle.

Turtle man.

Yeah, a tortoise, I would say.

I'm worried that I'm a turtle because of my rounded back.

Adam, why did you leave it to Kaylin to produce a witness on your behalf?

It's because I have so much trust in my wonderful wife that she would be very honest and bring that out if it was out there.

So, Kaylin, you told our producer, Jennifer, that Adam likes to, quote, repeat a joke, end quote.

Yes.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that Adam is a very good-humored person, loves the art of the pun, maybe more than I love the art of the pun, but he has a couple of go-to's that he tends to stand by.

So the turtle is kind of one.

I think it's become like an inside joke lore with us.

Yeah, it's a bit.

It's a bit.

We repeat it.

anytime which happens shockingly often in our lives a goat is mentioned something becomes hard to bleat we're talking like that level kind of stuff that i i know and can predict when he's gonna have a joke adam what's your go-to joke about a goat oh if we hear something about it it says oh that must be hard to bleat yeah and then i give that eel face meme or the eel face from the meme where you go ah ah and then sometimes kaylin reacts and sometimes she doesn't no he doesn't just give the face you go uh uh or often you will say that was funny as though to instruct me how to, how to respond to the bit.

Adam, let me ask you this question.

When you pass the turtle with your family, you say, hi, turtle.

Do you ever do it when you're by yourself?

Every time.

I think this gets the idea of, you know, it's a sign of character is doing the right thing when no one else is looking.

So I want to make sure that the turtle has the turtle has good cheer, even when no one else is around.

So I was about to say, oh, so you're not just doing this.

This is not the kind of dad joke that you repeat simply to annoy your family.

Now I realize it's a dad joke you repeat to also annoy me.

I think it's also to amuse myself.

I'm very good at amusing myself.

Is that true, Kaylin?

Yeah, one time Adam had a boss who told him that Adam was the person most capable of entertaining himself of anyone he had ever met.

Kaylin, have you recommended to Adam's boss that Adam be replaced with AI?

You're an expert.

I have not, but it's a suggestion I'll consider.

Adam, even though AI is approaching very swiftly,

I don't believe that this sign has achieved sentience.

The singularity has not given this turtle, 32-inch turtle man, a conscience or a consciousness, I should say.

You acknowledge that, right?

Yes.

Okay, we're just not, we're not in a place where you actually believe that this thing has feelings in real life.

Not in real life.

Okay, got it.

And your belief that it is a turtle is a genuine belief, right?

Or is it something you're using to wind up Kaylin and annoy her and for your own amusement?

No, she was just very surprised the first time I told her that it was a turtle.

She was, I think, genuinely shocked.

Right.

She was.

And Kaylin, what's the harm here?

I mean, look, I think that we've acknowledged that some people think it's a turtle.

More people don't, but some do.

And Adam's just having a bit of fun.

So why are we in court over this?

Why would you like him to stop?

Yeah.

Well, first of all, because I want our kids to be able to, I was going to say make up their own mind, but I want it really, I want them to make the right choice, which is the choice that I want them to make, which that's, you know.

But, and second, I think what bothers me a little bit about this is that Adam, I don't know if he's fighting for the turtleity of the figure.

I think you're more fighting for the ambiguity of it all.

It could be a turtle.

It could be a person.

And the fact that Adam is someone who has, in almost all areas of life, very sound judgment and a very structured way of thinking about things.

I mean, he has a quarterly seasonal Costco shopping list, for example.

But the fact that this is the thing that you're throwing caution to the wind with and being really chaotic about, I find it destabilizing because it doesn't seem like you.

Like it feels very weird and unsettling to me.

Is your argument that the Costco shopping list is an, is evidence of Adam's otherwise sort of

sober financial planner-y kind of lack of whimsy or

what?

Yeah, it's more, I don't trust that he's arguing that it's a turtle as opposed to a person.

I think he's just arguing for the ambiguity of it all.

And that feels very destabilizing to me because in other, all other areas of his life, he is very decisive and very clear and very rational.

And this just seems like an aberration that I don't like.

Adam, how do you respond to that?

Are you exploring ambiguity in this one area of your life where the rest of your life is cut and dry?

No, I mean, I held this for years, ever since I had first seen one of these, I had instantly thought it was a turtle.

And so I genuinely said that one day, and Caitlin was, as I said, shell-shocked and to see this happen.

I have to do that again, Adam.

He repeats the bits.

I told you.

That's right.

He goes back to the bits.

It's back back to the bits.

So, Kaylin, if I were to rule in your favor, obviously you want me to compel Adam to acknowledge that this is not a turtle, but a 32-inch tall man.

And you want me to forbid him from having a relationship with the sign anymore, right?

Well, he can still have a relationship with the sign.

Also, I would be okay with child as opposed to 32-inch tall red flag waving man.

But yes, I would like it to be universally decided that this is a child or at least a humanoid.

And I would, I, but I don't want to prohibit him from saying hi turtle to it, especially on his own time.

I want him to be able to have that own little ray of joy in his own little bit.

He can say hi turtle in in silence.

He can he can say hi turtle out loud alone.

Alone.

Right.

Yes.

The neighbors might listen,

thus exploring yet another paradox.

If Adam says, hi turtle alone in the road, does anyone hear it?

Yeah.

Depends on how fast people are driving by, I suppose.

Adam, you want to obviously keep calling it a turtle, but you also want me to force Kaylin to admit that it is a turtle.

That's what it says here.

Well, I don't want to force her to do anything, especially anything that makes her feel uncomfortable.

And I'm perfectly willing to let her call it a child.

I can definitely see how it's childlike, perhaps.

So I think first, yeah, I would like to be able to continue to call it a turtle.

But, you you know, my whole goal too as well was that your wonderful listenership right now in their car or on their walk is saying, huh, you know, it could be a turtle now that I think about it.

So

if you ruled against me, you might have to pull that one back too.

You're trying to spread this ambiguity into our listeners' minds like a kind of brain virus.

Now that you've thoroughly discombobulated your wife, you want you want to attack our, what does it look like to you right now, Joel, a turtle or a little, a little person?

Let's just call it turtle boy.

Turtle boy.

Joel's always looking for the third way.

I want to return to something.

Kaylin, you used the term destabilizing.

Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah, because I think Adam, with this, is kind of trying to spread a little bit of ambiguity.

He wants it.

I don't know that he firmly and truly believes that it's a turtle as much as he just wants.

it to be an open question.

And he is very decisive and very clear and very structured in his decision-making in all other parts of life.

So the fact that this is where he wants to be kind of a chaos Muppet is

weird to me, and I don't like it.

It doesn't, and how would you describe the feeling in terms of

roller coaster terms?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's definitely kind of like a pit of the stomach thing, a pit of the stomach followed by an inversion really fast.

So you don't really have time to recover.

Right.

Adam, what do you think about that when you hear Kaylin say that?

How does that make you feel?

Well, I mean, I don't want her to feel discombobulated in any means or have the pit of the stomach the next time we're on a roller coaster together.

But I'm pretty certain it's a turtle.

I mean, I can be pretty firm in that, at least from my point of view.

But given, as you've seen from, you know, popular retail websites and elsewhere,

there seems to not be one definitive answer on what this is.

So I'm willing to leave it open and not just stand on my ground, as it were.

But you're not doing this.

I mean, you say you don't want to discombobulate your wife, which is good,

but

you're not going back to this bit because the enjoyment for you

is getting her goat.

No, no, the enjoyment of me is having a turtle to say hello to.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to tuck my head into my shell.

I'm going to contemplate my decision.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kaitlyn, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

I'm feeling okay.

I mean,

I see the argument of the turtle-ish nature of this, but I hope I've made the case that it makes sense that it is a child.

And it also makes sense for us to resolve this once and for all.

How does it feel to be in conflict with my brother-in-law, Dan, who's one of the best guys?

Not great, great, but I feel like our relationship can recover from that.

Yeah, he's very good at reconciliation, I imagine.

I'm glad to hear that.

Adam, how are you feeling?

Good.

As I said, I think I've already gotten a small victory by getting a couple of, huh, maybe this is a turtle.

I think we've, and I really appreciate the work that you and the judge have done to bring in additional evidence here, which I think was hopefully supportive to my side.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, I'm coming to San Francisco, California.

So if there are San Franciscans out there, or look, I'll accept San Mateans, Redwood Cityites,

Richmonders,

Marin City residents, San Rafaelers.

I'm not just going to keep listing towns in the San Francisco Bay Area, I promise.

But Jordan, my co-host on Jordan Jesse Go, and I are coming to to San Francisco on August 22nd.

We'll be at the eclectic box in the Mission District.

Literally, this theater is three blocks from my childhood home.

Wow.

Yeah.

Tickets are available at maximumfun.org slash events.

maximumfund.org slash events.

It's a little tiny theater, so get those tickets quickly.

And I hope that we will see you there for an intimate experience.

Our friend Ashcon is joining us on the program as well as some comics celebrities because Jordan is going to be at Hape and CowellCon in the East Bay.

So it's going to be a really great, it's going to be a really great time.

I think, John, we're going to do a show that is all Reddit.

Just going to be all.

We started doing this show.

We started doing this show during the Max Fun Drive.

There was just us alternating, showing each other Reddits.

Yeah.

And

man, I'm excited to give Jordan a tour through R slash Ladders,

a subreddit for ladder enthusiasts.

I believe that it was your recommendation of the subreddit on magnet fishing and also the subreddit concerning dogs on roofs

that opened up the world of Reddit to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan is a big R slash root beer guy.

I don't think he even drinks root beer.

He just

likes that one time, one time in R slash Reddit, there was a post that was like, I'm drinking a cream soda right now.

Any love for cream soda in here?

And he went into the comments like ready for like, oh my God, this is all

these root beer people.

Yeah.

And then just all the comments were like, yeah, I love cream soda.

Yeah.

John, speaking of beverages, one of the top topics on your show, e Pluribus Motto, state beverages.

I love hearing about that.

I get annoyed every week that I record e pluribus motto with our friend Janet Varney, which is, of course, about the mottos, mammals, monsters, and more of every state, district, and territory in the union.

When I remember that out of the 33 or so states that have an official state beverage, 28 or something are milk.

And I'm going to give you a spoiler for this, for this upcoming episode that's coming out next week, because you will not be surprised that the official state beverage of Wisconsin, America's Dairyland, sure enough, is milk.

So that's a milk spoiler for you, but we've got so many fun facts and tidbits and interesting bits of history with regard to Wisconsin that I'm sure you will enjoy.

EPLuribus Motto, Wisconsin edition, coming up after that, Kentucky.

Then we go on to DC, Philadelphia, Nevada, well, Pennsylvania, I should say, Nevada, and many more in the season two of our road trip through the state mottos: mammals, monsters, and more.

It's all on ePluribus Motto from only maximum fun at maximumfun.org.

We were in the studio the other day when

a combination of various federal forces occupied the park outside our office.

It was really

upsetting to have armored troop carriers rolling into your neighborhood.

That has continued here in Los Angeles, and I think it has only redoubled our commitment to supporting migrants in North America through an organization called Al Otro Lado.

I got an email the other day from one of our mutual friends, the great Elizabeth Gilbert.

I had just seen Liz a couple of weeks ago because I recorded an interview about her wonderful new memoir.

And

it's always just such a delight.

You know, Elizabeth Gilbert, she's a beloved author because of how delightful she is.

She's just, I mean, a terrific writer, thinker, sharer,

amazing human being.

She's a luminous person.

And I got an email the other day from Liz that said, I heard about you and John's fundraiser for Alotrolado.

Would it be okay if I offered a $25,000 matching grant?

And I said, no.

No, of course I said yes, John.

It would be really weird if I said no.

It would be really weird.

So if you go to

alotrolado.org slash let's do something, and that link is in the show description for this episode right there in your podcast app

you can support alo Trolado and Liz will match your support up to $25,000

Alotrolado among other things is providing know your rights training for people in immigration detention on both sides of the border they are offering refugee rights training to people who do not speak Spanish in Mexico City.

Many, many people come from all over the the world into Mexico in order to get refugee status in Mexico and the United States.

And they need help.

Well, a lot of, for example, Haitians who speak French or Haitian Creole.

And Alotrolado provides legal training for them in the language that they speak.

They're a really awesome organization.

And we hope that you will join us and join Liz in supporting them at alotrolado.org slash let's do something.

Thanks to Liz's generosity and yours, you now have a chance to make more of an impact than ever by donating to Al Otrolado.

It's a really, really important moment in history where we have to do what's right.

And I hope that you'll join us in supporting this incredible organization.

What's that website again, Jesse?

Alotrolado.org, A-L-O-T-R-O-L-A-D-O dot org slash let's do something.

All right, let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

When I first read the description of this case, when Jennifer Marmor first presented the brief to me,

I did not need to see a photograph of the sign in question because I knew it in my mind's eye immediately.

I knew exactly what it was, in part because

there was the question, is this a turtle?

I'm like, oh, yeah, it's that.

It's that child that kind of looks like a turtle.

I mean,

I don't want to double gaslight you, Adam.

There is turtleness to this.

The sloped back, the rounded head,

even the Franklin-like hat.

I knew exactly what it was, and yet I am not yet prepared to say it is a turtle.

Because it also is a 32-inch man and a human child.

It is all of these things.

And I wonder if that's maybe the point.

I remember driving in Maine, oh, probably 20 years ago, the only ever time, the only time I ever saw a moose.

You ever see a moose, Joel?

Oh, yeah.

What's that like?

Fun?

No.

Right.

No, very, very up close, not fun at all.

Wouldn't you say destabilizing?

Yes, very much so.

I mean,

I saw many a sign, slow down for moose, slow down for moose, slow down for moose.

And then I saw something really alarming, was right next to the road.

This was on the airline between Bangor and Callas.

The road, this highway is called the airline because it's up high in the sky.

It goes straight airline.

And I saw a statue of a moose.

And I'm like, well, that is very irresponsible.

In an area where I'm being constantly warned to watch out for moose, to put a gigantic, highly realistic statue of a moose right next to the road.

I hit the brakes hard.

I'm like, this is not cool.

And then that statue was not a statue.

It moved.

It was a moose.

It lumbered across the road.

I'd guess it was probably 30 feet tall.

I've never seen a more alien, extraterrestrial-looking creature in my life.

In that case, it did happen to be a moose, but it was that ambiguity between is that a moose or a statue?

My brain had difficulty processing it.

And far more effectively than those signs saying, hey, stupid, there's a moose coming up, that

actual moose made me slow down because my brain couldn't imagine seeing it.

And that's what these little creatures are trying to do to passing motorists.

Yes, it's optic yellow or neon green.

Yes, it's a little child, or maybe it's a 32-inch man, or maybe it's a turtle.

Yes, it's all of these things, and nothing at all.

It is unidentifiable, it is terrifying, it has no mouth, it has no nose, it's wired to a tree.

You're gonna slow down because your brain is trying to process what is that thing.

You're not reacting to the word slow on its shorts or its red flag.

You're reacting to this strange, semi-human, semi-turtly form.

And I don't know whether this company actually has

copyright infringing upon Franklin, the cartoon turtle.

But it is wearing a little red hat, just like Franklin is.

And you're not wrong there either, Adam.

I hate to say that your arguments are this good after you made that shell-shock joke, but they, but there are pretty good arguments to be made here.

One opportunity to defend yourself was when I asked, can you think of a turtle that has a different turtle that has a hat on it?

And you're like, no.

I'm like, you can't?

What about Tippy Turtle from Saturday Night Live?

Joel, you remember that Tippy Turtle cartoon from Saturday Night Live?

No.

Hey, Tippy Turtle, walking down the street.

Tell us what you're going to do.

First, I'm going to bother everybody I meet, then I'll probably go home and get drunk.

It was a little animation.

I always think about it.

It sticks in my mind, much like the memory of this weird little creature.

And

even more, the ambiguity

is that my brain put, and I'm not, I wasn't joking about this.

After I saw this, before you mentioned Franklin and his, and his jaunty kerchief,

my brain did see a kerchief on this turtle boy boy that I saw in Maine not two days ago, manifested in the world, perhaps because I was thinking I had put it out there

into the universe that I wanted to see one of these things.

And sure enough, it popped up.

And I remember it wearing a kerchief.

I appreciate that this is destabilizing to you, Kaylin, and it's upsetting.

And I'm arguing that that is exactly what this sign is designed to do:

it is to destabilize, to arrest the imagination for a moment, to make a driver worry that they're about to drive over either an optic green human child or a neon yellow anthropomorphic turtle.

Either way, you're probably going to slow down.

I would say that the whole argument as to whether it is one or the other

is pointless because this is one of those things, as Iris Dement sings of, where you have to let the mystery be

because the point of the sign is mystery.

What is this thing?

Now, if I were to go to,

you know,

whatever manufacturer is selling this thing, I mean, I think there are dozens of manufacturers of this non-trademarked image.

You would probably have dozens of answers as to what this thing is supposed to be.

That red hat.

Boy, it sure does look like Franklin the Turtle.

So, in terms of your marriage,

I don't believe that Adam is consciously gaslighting you by saying

you're out of your mind.

That is obviously a turtle.

What I hear from Adam is there is an interpretation, a supportable interpretation,

that there is turtleness,

that this this to this creature, that this humanoid has turtly qualities,

and that there are many humanoid turtles in cartoon history, and this resembles one of them.

And because I don't think that there is malice in this, or that he is trying to get your goat, in this regard, I find Adam innocent.

And in terms of your children

understanding

what this is,

It is true that

you have profound power as a parent to shape your kids' understanding of the world.

I could have raised a child.

In fact, I could have raised two children to believe without question

that Tom Waits is great.

Listen to Joel chuckling over there.

You don't like Tom Waits either, Joel?

No, I do.

Yeah.

I love Tom Waits.

Tom Waits is terrific.

I'm just saying that

there is that power to raise a child with your precise taste and your precise worldview and everything else.

But like other good, responsible parents,

I want to introduce my children to a world in which there is an objective reality and words have meaning and things have names, but also allow them to form their own opinions.

And the reality is, I think,

Kaylin, is that when you asked your child, what is that?

You know, you can hear it on the video, in my opinion, that when you asked your daughter, is that a turtle or a human?

Even Leah had to think about it.

It was a thinker.

And Leah grasped for something that was very plain.

There is a hat on there.

Humans wear hats.

Thank God or whatever.

We can eliminate this ambiguity for the moment.

But I don't think that there is a solid answer one way or the other.

I don't even think the manufacturer knows.

I don't know why this exists.

If you're the person out there who designed this weird creature, good job, because we're all talking about it because

it's, you know, sublime in the

classic definition of it, which is that your brain cannot completely comprehend it.

It is the equivalent of a Lovecraftian old god.

Your brain is not meant to understand this thing.

This is a creature from beyond the Eldritch horror.

manifest on earth to try to get you to slow down and not hit an actual child or for that matter an actual turtle

So, where does that leave my ruling?

Well, I'm going to say that

the turtleness or the humanness of this figure is purposefully unsettled and unsettling.

In terms of how Adam should behave himself going forward, I would ask Adam, and indeed order,

that he acknowledge

the ambiguity of this creature.

it is neither turtle nor human.

And do you know who else is neither turtle nor human?

Precisely because he is fictional?

Franklin, the humanoid turtle.

I want Adam to have joy in his life and to greet this thing, but turtle, calling it turtle, it's too specific.

Honor the ambiguity.

When you pass by this thing in the future, you're going to go, hey, it's Franklin.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Hey, it's Franklin.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kaylin, how do you feel right now?

I feel pretty good.

I feel at least taken very seriously about the cosmic nature of this very, very petty dispute.

And I feel like this is

a fine resolution.

And Adam has a delightful singing voice.

So I can't wait to hear that every time we pass one of these on our walk.

Adam, how do you feel?

um i was just gonna say shell yeah because i think this brought a lot take it back ungaveled womp walk walk

please tell me you were gonna say that but you decided not to say that Yes, I wanted to if it had been fully in my favor, but I think the judge's ruling was quite fair and the ambiguity here.

And I like the idea of letting our kids think creatively about

any other anthropomorphized items we see in the future.

Can we hear a little singing?

Hey, it's Franklin.

Yeah.

Kaylin, how long until John and I are obsolete?

I don't know.

We got at least a couple of weeks, I think.

That's good to hear.

Thank you, Adam and Kaylin, for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In just a second, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Redditor K Mack for naming this week's episode, Turtle Power of Attorney.

If you want to join us on Reddit, it's r slash maximum fun.

That is where we name these cases and we also chat about the cases.

You can always suggest a title.

You can always enjoy the other titles that people suggest.

Evidence and photos from the show, you can find on our Instagram account.

Judge John Hodgman.

You can also find them at maximumfun.org on this episode's page.

You can also find us on TikTok and YouTube, where there is full video of this case and every episode at Judge John Hodgman Pod.

So subscribe there.

Yeah.

We're having a good time on YouTube.

Yeah, we're having a wonderful time over there on YouTube.

Judge John Hodgman Pod is the name of the channel.

We recently posted a little video there asking you to be the judge.

Which kind of pizza should be eliminated from Pizza Dumb forever?

Pineapple pizza?

Deep dish pizza?

Or hot honey pizza?

Which one gets kicked out of the pizza club forever?

And guess what most people voted, Jesse?

Can you guess?

What would you vote out?

I would vote out.

I've never had hot honey pizza, but that's what I would vote out.

I really like deep dish pizza.

I like standard dish pizza as well.

Well, too bad for you.

You can never have it again because it doesn't exist anymore because our viewers judged it not pizza and it is now banned forever.

They kicked it out over hot honey and pineapple?

Yeah, they kicked it right out.

But

if you dispute that finding, go over there to the YouTube channel, JudgeJohn Hodgman Pod.

We might pick your comment as the comment of the week.

And indeed, Waiting for Germ left a comment over there on YouTube.

That's J-E-R-M.

I think they're waiting for Jeremy, not waiting for a germ to come and make them sick, I hope.

But waiting for Germ left a comment said, pizza snobbism, that's the real problem.

You want to discuss the true abomination?

Everything people call poke

is just ocean salad.

Join us over there on YouTube for more opportunities to be the judge.

You can watch our full episodes there as well.

As you can see right now, if you're watching, we film them all.

And we post them right up there over there at Judge John Hodgman Pod.

They premiere every Wednesday at 9 a.m.

Pacific, 12 p.m.

Eastern.

And while you're over there, won't you please subscribe, like, and share an episode with a friend?

It's very simple.

Just press that little arrow button.

It's one of the ways that people discover new podcasts, and it really helps the show.

So thanks.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Rob Ford at Podville Media in Washington, D.C.

Our social media manager is Dan Telfer.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video editor is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice.

You ready for this, John?

I am ready.

Oxford Tetherball on the MaxFun subreddit says, when my partner shares a contact from their phone, they text a screenshot of the contact entry.

They won't share it as a V card or copy and text the phone number.

I don't want to flip back and forth as I manually dial the number.

Help.

Yeah.

I don't know what your partner's problem is.

Yeah, this is dark behavior.

Really?

that's really, that's, that borders on cruelty, frankly.

Screenshots are great.

Collect a lot of evidence that way, but it's pretty easy to share a contact.

Why don't you just do it the way it's designed to do it?

We're eager to hear all your disputes on any subject, no matter how big or small that dispute is.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJ H O

J J H O

fill out that little form

and send it into us because we can't judge it unless we see it.

So please drop us a line and we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.