Breeches of Contract

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, breaches of contract.

Gabby brings the case against her husband, Mike.

Mike wears the same cargo pants every day.

He says one pair is all he needs.

Gabby disagrees.

She believes a person needs at least two pairs of pants.

It's science.

But Mike says he's too tired in the morning to think about what to to wear.

One pair of pants is easy.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Hey, David, instead of living with your parents, why don't you just try sleeping in one of your cargo shorts pockets?

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigant's in.

Mike Gabby, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's wearing two pairs of pants right now?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, I no longer know what the premise of those little jokes is.

You may proceed.

It's only to speak the truth.

I am very careful.

I do wear two pairs of pants.

I wear my regular pants, and then I wear underpants.

Aha.

I can gabby, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

In one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered?

Well, this new courtroom.

We are here at the studios of Headgum, New York City.

Our friends have allowed us to invade their home for reasons that are boring.

But here I am, and there you are.

And do you have a guess for me?

Let's start with you, Gabby.

Is it a quote from the film Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants?

Is it a quote from the film Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants?

I like that guess.

I'm going to write it down.

I did it.

All right.

I will remember your guess now, Gabby.

Mike, it is now your turn to guess.

I guess is it a quote from the Dick Town?

The show Dick Town?

Yes.

What streaming platform would that be on?

Hulu, I believe.

Are we watching them?

And what episode do you think it might be from?

One with the hot air balloon, I'll say.

I don't remember the name of that one.

You're talking about season two, episode two.

Sure.

Sounds good.

Okay, I'll write that down.

Phew, that was wrong.

All guesses were wrong, except one was very close to correct.

Mike,

you almost walked away with it.

But it was a quote from Dicktown on Quibi.

Dicktown on Quibby was the correct answer.

Yeah, our secret third season.

Quick bites.

It was from Dick Town on Hulu, now available via your Disney Plus bundle.

It amuses me to no end that Disney Plus is now responsible for distributing Dick Town, the show that I created with our friend David Reese.

And that was indeed a quote from Dick Town, but wrong season, wrong episode, Mike.

How embarrassing for you and embarrassing for me because I can't remember which one it was from now.

It was from season one,

episode, I want to say nine.

The penultimate episode, The Mystery of the Impossible Car,

in which my character, a former child detective who still works for children, John Hunchman, roasts his colleague, driver, and hired muscle David Purfoy, played by David Reese, who for always, well, for living with his parents and always wearing cargo pants, specifically cargo shorts.

But Mike, this is about not cargo shorts, but cargo pants, specifically your cargo pants.

And in this case, we are talking not pants plural, but pants singular, correct, Mike?

That's correct.

All right.

Before we get into it, who seeks justice in my courtroom?

I do.

Gabby.

And what is your relationship to Mike, if that is indeed his name?

Mike Moore.

Mike is my husband and a whole human being in his own right.

Very nice.

And how did you two meet?

Where are you in the world and how did you two meet?

So we dwell in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

The land of enchantment.

The land of enchantment.

And the kind of sub-nickname is the land of entrapment.

And because Mike went to graduate school here, he was doomed by the entrapment to come back.

And so we were both living in Western Pennsylvania and met on bumble

and have during the pandemic.

Relocated back to the West.

He's originally from Anchorage.

I'm originally from Portland.

And so we wanted to be back in the West.

Anchorage, Alaska?

Yes, yeah.

Right next door to Alaska, at least.

Yeah, Gabby, you should feel lucky that he wears any pants at all.

That's a fair point.

He's a wild man from the frontier.

I would have expected him to be clad in whale blubber.

For sure.

Well, seal breaches, sealskin breeches was normal.

But now you're there in ABX breaking bad territory.

It's called the land of entrapment because people love it there or because people get entrapped by undercover police officers a lot?

Sometimes both.

No, generally it's

people

who try to leave always find themselves

coming back for one reason or another.

Yeah, it's a wonderful state and you can learn a whole lot about it on an upcoming episode of EPLIBIS Motto starring Janet Varney and me.

But that's a different podcast.

Now here we are.

Now, Mike,

the issue here is pants.

Right now, I am looking at you.

I guess I'm finding you through the camera in the Land of Enchantment itself, Albuquerque.

Are you wearing any pants at the moment?

I am, yes.

For our YouTube viewers, would you prove it, please?

Okay.

Thank you.

Okay, please spin around because those could be butless chaps.

Okay.

All right.

Jesse, you verify that those are pants too?

I can verify those are pants.

All All right, we're concurred on pants then.

Mike, now that we know that you're wearing pants, we also know that you are employable.

What is your employment, if I may ask?

I am an economist for the state of New Mexico.

I should say there are probably lots of people who are working from home right now listening to this podcast who are very employable and are definitely not wearing pants.

So please keep your cards and letters to yourselves.

You're an economist, and what does that entail?

Largely

forecasting tax revenue for the state.

That must be a lot of fun.

Is it a fun time to be an economist?

Everything seems great.

Yeah,

it's fun for me in the same way that it's fun for a doctor discovering a new disease.

Okay.

And Cabby, how do you spend your time?

So I am,

by training, a musician, and I conduct the first ever trauma-informed chorus here in Albuquerque for young people.

What is a trauma-informed chorus, if I may ask?

So, a trauma-informed chorus is a chorus that seeks to be an environment where anybody can come with whatever history they have and feel safe there.

If they come with neurodiversity, that's great.

If they come with a great history of like nurturing childhood and fabulous human beings raising them, that's great.

It's a good place for them.

And if that is less the case, it's also a good place for them.

So, it's trauma-informed rather than trauma-specific.

I'm not in the business of asking children when they come through the door so what's the worst thing that ever happened to you but i i think you might get in trouble if you did what kind of songs do you sing in the chorus

so we sing stuff from every musical tradition you can possibly imagine i'm trained as a classical musician so that's what was your instrument that you were trained on primarily voice oh okay great

carry it with you Yep, that's it's true.

It's very portable.

You do have to sort of eat your breakfast on it every morning, which is problematic.

It's not the case with, say, a viola, but you know, we do what we can.

Oh, you know, I used to play the viola.

Did you really?

Yeah, I played, I was a violist,

and uh, and I was much better at eating breakfast off of it than playing it, to be honest with you.

I mean, that's C-clef.

It's a problem.

You've never heard a viola played properly until you've heard it stuffed with Muesli.

True, true enough.

I also played the clarinet, and I mostly use that as a boba straw.

That reed must have gotten in the way, though, hey?

At least it's a single reed.

Gabby, I interrupted you, though.

You were going to tell me about some of the songs that you sing in your chorus.

So we sing a lot of tunes from the African-American spiritual tradition.

We sing New Mexican folk tunes.

We sing classical compositions.

We sing original compositions.

Just kind of everything under the sun.

Our most recent concert was a concert of protest songs.

That's wonderful.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls, but you know what?

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You are an economist

and you economize when it comes to pants.

You only have

a pair.

I do have a backup pair, but I don't like wearing that one.

Oh, Gabby, he's got a backup pair.

All right, wrap it up, Giacomo.

We're out of here.

All right.

Well, setting aside your backup pair, tell me about, well, you know what?

I'm going to ask Gabby.

Why don't you tell me about

your husband's pants?

How would you describe them?

Dirty?

Stained?

Fret pair?

I refrain from making judgments about the cleanliness of the pants.

I feel that that is not my station necessarily.

Gabby, dirty is not an opinion.

We need to begin living in an objective shared reality again.

And

I trust you to trust your eyes, nose, and other senses.

Is this single, when was the last time this single pair of primary pants was washed?

And who did it?

So we kind of share laundry duties.

And I believe the last time the pair that he's currently wearing was laundered was sometime last week.

Sometime last week.

And we are recording on a Monday.

Would you say

more than four days ago?

I would be guessing, but I think the answer to that question is yes.

Mike, I'm going to ask you in a moment.

Just answer yes or no.

Do you know when the last time these pants were washed?

Yes.

All right.

For the benefit of our viewers on the YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgman Pod, we are now showing a slow-motion recap of Mike's pants display so that you can guess in the comments how long ago it was these pants were washed.

At the end of the episode, we'll reveal the answer.

And if you got it right, good for you.

Meanwhile, we're somewhere between four and seven days, I think.

So pick a number between four and seven and put it in the comments.

And maybe you'll be the lucky winner.

I don't know.

In any case, it's a while.

Gabby, what is your complaint about the pants?

I believe that he wears the same pair of pants over and over,

not only for reasons of utility

and ease in the the morning, but I believe that this is just a way to not make an intentional choice.

Say more about that for me.

So,

Mike uses his pants kind of as his purse, I guess I would say.

So, there's a lot of belongings that he does not wish to transfer from one pair to the other.

By belongings, you mean cargo?

Yes,

that's what I would be referring to, Your Honor.

He has a lot of cargo.

Seems like he might be in a cargo cult.

He might be.

What kind of cargo do you got in your pants, Mike?

Keys, wallet.

You know what?

I'm going to do it.

Empty your pockets right now.

Everything on the table.

No more secrets.

And Mike, as each thing comes out, tell us what it is.

So this is my work phone.

Uh-oh.

He has two phones.

Red flag.

My

wallet.

Okay.

It's probably got a phone just for drug dealing.

That's right.

Not that.

Keys.

Keys.

Handkerchief.

That's for brow mopping.

Brow mopping.

And earbuds.

Okay.

Nice cargo.

And by the way, nicely arranged on the table.

Yeah.

And my personal phone.

Well, more things are coming.

This is like

Mary Poppins' carpet bag here

more clowns how'd they fit in there

yeah fair enough fair enough uh gabby he's using his pants as a purse that seems reasonable why are you uh why are you against pockets i am actually very pro pocket i have one of my main beefs with clothing typically made for women is that the pockets are super non-capacious and it fills me with woe.

So I totally relate to the idea that one would want to carry cargo in one's pockets.

You're just jealous of his pockets.

I will admit that I do feel a sense of envy about pockets in clothing made for men, generally speaking.

Yeah,

I mean,

I don't blame you.

Traditionally,

women-gendered clothing is really pocket-deficient.

And there's a lot of cargo that we carry around with us.

But that's no no reason to punish your beloved husband on a podcast just because you hate his pockets and resent them.

I feel that there are ways of moving these items from one pair of pants to another.

So my quarrel is not with the existence of the pockets or the use of the pockets.

It's the

refusal to change from one set of pockets to a new, perhaps cleaner set of pockets.

Now, hold on.

Gabby, you've asserted to us that Mike doesn't change his pants because he doesn't want to move things between his pockets.

I haven't heard Mike tell us

why,

I can't believe this is real, why he only wears one pair of pants.

Mike,

why, in your words, do you only wear one pair of pants with, we will grant you, an emergency backup pair?

Ease.

I don't have to really think about it too much in the morning.

I tend to be, I think the term Gabby uses is neurospicy.

And I need routines that are very important for me in the morning.

So it's, well, I can have the pants that are right there, pull a polo for my dresser, and then I'm done.

And there's no more planning.

If I have to do much more planning, then I kind of

lose other steps in my routine in the morning.

Do I understand correctly, Mike, that you leave the cargo in the cargo bays of your pants overnight?

Yes.

Okay.

So, and do you sleep in your pants?

No, no.

Just trying to see how far this goes.

So, your bedtime routine is you drop your, you're standing by your bed, you drop your pants, they fall to the ground very easily because they're full of ballast.

They thunk right down,

and then you hop into bed, and then in the morning, you just stand up into into those pants.

And then I presume you have some kind of machine that raises them onto your body again, like in a Rube Goldberg fashion or what?

Or you just pull out?

I wish.

So I really wish.

I'm still trying to train the dogs to do that for me, actually.

How many dogs are we talking about?

We have three.

Do we have any photos of these dogs we need to be looking at right now?

I think two are in one of the exhibits, Exhibite A.

So I'm looking at the evidence now.

If you're on YouTube, you're seeing it as well.

If you want to check it out on our socials or on our show page at maximumfund.org, all of our evidence will be posted there as always.

And exhibit A is indeed a photo of your dog's butt, Mike.

Yes, that's Grover.

Yeah, what's great about the dog's butt is that it looks a little bit like the logo for a YMCA.

In any case, we have here a photo, not just of a very cute dog named Grover, did you say?

Yes.

Right.

But also a very cute man named

With your thumbs up, what is the thumbs up indicating in this photo, Mike?

So

I believe a secondary part of Gabby's complaint is about just the choices and that I prefer that if I wear clothing that's,

or the clothing I wear needs to contrast.

So if I'm wearing lighter color pants like khaki, as in this case, then I need to wear a darker polo, like in this case black.

So I prove that the exhibit B has got the combination that I do not like.

You got that.

And refuse to wear.

Well, let's see exhibit B then, please.

Boo.

This is you with your thumbs down.

I'm not doing you.

I'm channeling your energy, Mike.

Yes.

You've got your thumbs down because you're wearing your dark black polo again,

but this time with some charcoal colored.

cargo pants, would you say?

Yes.

These are also charcoal.

I mean, these are well short of charcoal.

These are mid-gray at darkest.

Mid-gray at darkest.

Not enough contrast for you or Gabby, Mike?

Correct.

Okay.

I got to say, while I do not accept the premise that there isn't enough contrast here because there's a lot of contrast, also, I don't accept the premise that you need contrast.

I do accept it based on the great faces that Mike is making in these pictures.

I'm completely compelled by that element to his argument.

You are giving

some great faces in these photos, for sure.

Yeah, you're basically Rosie Perez on Soul Train with the face that you're giving.

It's fantastic.

So, all right,

you have two pairs of shorts and two pairs of pants total.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Correct.

Your regular khakis, which you like, those are the thumbs up ones.

Yes.

And those, and those gray, and those gray pocket baddies that we just saw, that's your backup.

Those are your backup booties?

Yes.

Okay.

The gray pants pants we refer to in our house as the bad pants.

The khaki pants are the good pants, and the gray ones are the bad ones.

What makes them who's who calls them bad?

I do.

Mike raised his hand.

Mike, why are the gray pants bad?

Because

they don't have enough contrast with the majority of the polo shirts that I have.

or shirts that I wear.

That raises a question that I wanted to ask.

In the two photos that we saw, you were wearing a black polo shirt, but in our meeting here today, you're wearing like a nice blue polo shirt or something like that, right?

Yes.

It's a collared pullover.

So

is that all the shirts you own?

No, I have many more shirts.

I wear a new shirt every day, but a clean shirt every day.

That doesn't seem very economical compared to your pant conservation system.

Generally, if you wear the same pants every day, day, people won't notice too much because they're

just khakis and everyone has lots of khakis generally.

Right.

But if you wear the same shirt every day, people will notice.

It's easier to fool people into thinking you're wearing clean pants if they're khakis.

Yes.

Got it.

Why do you feel that the contrast is important?

I've been thinking about general

vibe or aesthetics, I think.

It just feels better to you to have a contrast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll say this, John, in my capacity as a menswear expert.

I don't generally love black shirts for a variety of reasons.

And I don't generally love the combination of

khaki and black.

It's a little harsh.

And black shirts can be a little bit harsh.

They also can

look ratty really quickly.

But

taking a look at the pictures that Mike has sent, Mike is a pretty high contrast guy.

He has very dark hair and pretty pale skin.

That's relatively well suited to this kind of high contrast color palette.

And

he looks all right as far as I'm concerned.

He looks pretty solid.

Thank you.

I'd trust his projections.

Gabby, is there anything else while you're here that Mike wears that annoys you or that you think should change?

So the fixation on a single pair of something is not only for pants.

It is also for shoes.

And I've tried to convince him that if you wear only one pair of shoes every single day, they wear out really fast.

Whereas if you have a couple of pairs that you rotate, then you can get a lot more wear out of them.

And also they feel better on your feet because you're not wearing the same pair every single day.

And

shoes have been a point of uniqueness for my beloved husband.

And I believe you were told before we started dating that you would like never find a woman who would put up with your five finger toe shoes.

Yes.

And

I would like to state for the record that the five finger toe shoes were never a point of contention for me, that I am not opposed to uniqueness.

I am only opposed to a lack of intentionality.

Now, I would like to note that Jesse Thorne did a little dance when he heard the term five-fingered toe shoes.

And if you're watching on YouTube, you're seeing a slow-motion recap of that right now.

Let's enjoy this for a moment.

Thank you.

And now, Jesse, why were you dancing?

I didn't know that the ante could be upped from one pair of pants.

One pair of cargo pants.

One pair of cargo pants.

That seems, oh man, this is amazing.

I'm surprised that he doesn't only wear a utility kilt to the office.

Oh, look, he put his shoes up there.

If I'll get away with that, I won't wear.

Are those five-finger shoes right now?

They are.

Wow.

Yes.

Yes.

I wore them for the occasion.

Did you?

Okay, hold on.

Hold on.

Mike, did you just take off?

Are you

your little Tootsies flapping in the wind there in the studio in New Mexico?

Yes, they are.

Feet on mane.

Feet on mane.

Are you wearing toe socks too or just regular socks?

I am wearing toe socks.

I've been so amazed and astonished by this

five-toe toe sock, five-toe toe shoe revelation that I've forgotten the whole point of this story.

You were talking about when did you discover during your dating process that Mike was wearing these toe shoes and the single pair of pants?

The single pair of pants revelation came later, and I'm not actually sure that was still happening then because we were both employed at universities at the time.

Right.

And

so I think there was a little bit more variety because he was seeing more people.

Is that not true?

No, it's not true.

I was, this has been a consistent since high school, basically.

Well, color me oblivious.

Tell me about the day you woke up and said, I'm throwing all those extra pants away.

I'm sticking with this pair from now on.

I think it came from

at one.

I've been doing my laundry for quite a few years then.

At one point, my dad kind of complained, why are you doing so much laundry?

And I said, well, I got to wash all my pants.

And he said, well, you can wear the same pants more than just one day.

And

that was a revelation to me.

And I realized, oh, well, if that's the case, then this things became much, much easier for me.

Right.

You ran with it and you sweated in those pants and then you just wore them again.

Well, generally, if I do anything that causes me to sweat quite a bit, I will wash the pants right away.

So, Gabby, you just learned that this has been going on since Mike was in high school.

You didn't notice.

How do you feel?

I do feel a little bad about that because,

I mean, I guess I can give myself a pass with the whole, you know, blush of new love situation.

I don't know.

Also, you were distracted by those hot toe shoes.

That is also a possibility.

His friends gave him a lot of crap for the for the toe shoe situation.

Would you prefer to wear no clothes at all

no i'd prefer to wear clothes but no shoes if i could get away with it yeah you get away with it a lot more than you think is this an ideological issue a sensory

issue

uh i'd say sensory or comfort comfort is my primary choice when for clothing and then utility Gabby, what do you think is going on?

So for me, the story end of the story is that

Mike doesn't want to have to do anything nice for himself.

And so he is choosing a thing that is easy and functional without thinking about what might be easy enough, functional enough, but also, you know, spark some joy.

When we got married, we had our reception at our home in our backyard and we

bought special outfits for that occasion.

And one of those outfits was cargo tucks.

Linen pants and a nice linen shirt.

And the whole time we were shopping for this, the whole conversation was about how nice linen is and how nice it is to wear linen and how good it feels, how good it looks.

And

I think there's something in there.

We live in a state where you can wear linen like nine, 10 months out of the year.

And I would love to see that get incorporated because not only does it feel comfortable both physically and emotionally, it also celebrates an aspect of who you are.

You're suggesting that Mike has difficulty doing nice things for himself or privileging his comfort?

I would say so.

And there's many examples of this, but the pants are just maybe one of the more extreme ones.

I mean, he does wear toe shoes.

That's pretty much an offense against society in favor of his own comfort.

Toe shoes are the ultimate indulgence.

It seems to me like he's not shy about indulging himself when it counts down in his Tootsies.

True.

And the toe shoe thing I think of as a separate phenomenon because he doesn't wear the toe shoes every day.

He just busted those out to be cool here.

I think most of the shoes that he wears, like he'll wear one pair of shoes until they have holes in the bottom of the soles.

And then he comes home one day and he's like, I've got a hole in my shoe.

I guess I'm going to have to go buy new shoes.

And I'm like, yeah, guess you are.

That's something called Yankee thrift.

He learned that from Adelaide Stevenson.

But it's the case, Mike, that you could have

a pair of toe shoes for everyday wear and then a pair of formal toe shoes

and

then maybe some beach toe shoes.

I mean, I don't know.

Why don't you feel you deserve extra pairs of shoes and pants?

The larger answer would be

cost.

And The Economist comes out.

But I did wear these shoes every day while teaching

at the university.

And I did have a pair for the gym and a pair for work or for just teaching.

Mike, when you say cost,

I'm a little confused because if you had two pairs of pants, would those pants wear out faster because you were wearing them half the time?

Or is the capital investment of two pairs of $50 pants

too great for the return of each of those pairs of pants lasting a little longer?

I'd have to say the second one with the capital investment being not high enough or the return not being high enough on that investment.

I think Gabby's making an assertion that's worth drawing out here, which is that when you have

one pair of pants and certainly one pair of shoes that you wear every day,

and in the case of the pants, wash or clean relatively infrequently,

you will get fewer wears out of that garment than if you had alternated or washed regularly.

So, you know, in the case of a textile, you know, in the case of pants, there is also a cost to washing them in terms of their wear, right?

Tumbling them in the washer and dryer also wears them out.

But

washing them regularly, you know, every few wears is an important part of, you know,

maintaining their lifespan, improving their lifespan, because the gunk that gets into them wears them out.

Jesse, if you were trying to make your cargo pants last longer and

to be economical in your practice of wearing pants, how often would you wash them?

And would you ever machine dry them?

I certainly wouldn't machine dry them if I was trying to make them last as long as possible.

Because that breaks them down, right?

I think I've learned that from you in the past.

Yeah, it does.

I mean, you know, it's not catastrophic.

I use the dryer sometimes too.

And it's possible that Mike's

sensory needs preclude drawing them on the line because they could get a little crispy.

Some people like that.

I love some crispy pants.

Okay.

Well, there you go.

Mike, Mike is shaking his head.

No.

I love them.

I love them when they're air-dried crispy.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I don't like crispy pants when they're dirt crispy and they start to maintain their shape.

through sheer secretions, dirt, and oils.

But, you know.

But yeah, I think, you know, New Mexico is a dry but warm place.

Yeah.

And

Mike's a big dude.

If it was me, I'd be inclined to say

every few wears, three,

maybe.

I mean, it depends on the swampiness of his pants area.

which is an individual thing that I can't judge.

Right.

I would think Gabby would be able to judge that to some extent.

I would like to not judge that.

Thank you.

Thanks to their marital relationship.

But

I would guess three.

Three would be about where I would put it.

I think after three days of wear, run them through the wash and then dry them.

Tumble dry if you want them to be soft, which I think you do, Mike, right?

Or line dry if you like them to be fresh and crispy, Hodgman style.

Is that what that would be your recommendation?

Yeah, and even more than that, I think that, you know, this is particularly true with shoes, but giving clothes time to rest and dry

from the swampiness of being worn

is pretty useful.

So if you really wanted to maximize

for utility purposes, the health of his pants and the lifespan of his pants, I'd be inclined to suggest suggest that he

hang them in between and alternate.

So they get time to rest and get some air and,

you know, basically dry out.

Look,

Mike likes his pants the way they are.

How do you feel about them, Gabby?

If he had more than, if he had five identical pairs of these pants, let's just say that it happened somehow,

they fell off a truck or a podcast accidentally bought him five pairs of his pants, Would you be comfortable with him as he is dressed in this photo, just with cleaner pants more often?

Truly, it's not about the cleanliness of the pants, as bizarre as that sounds.

Well, why isn't it?

This is what I want to know.

Look,

I wear my pants a lot, day after day.

Like, I am not a guy who wears a fresh pair of pants every day.

Anyone who's toured with me knows it, right, Jesse?

That's true.

And I, there comes a point where the pants feel dirty to my legs.

And I know they must be washed.

It is not, it is, it is more than once a week, but it is, I will let them go several days.

But if they are dirty, they're dirty and they feel bad to me.

And I can't imagine they look sharp to you, Cappy.

Why doesn't anyone care about the cleanliness of these pants?

Again,

I

am,

I really want to be a supportive person who doesn't control what their spouse chooses to wear.

That was one of my concerns with presenting this case in the first place was that I'd be like nasty mean wife lady who wanted to dress her husband differently just because I want him to adhere to some arbitrary aesthetic that I have chosen.

And that's not where we're at here.

Like that's not the perspective that I'm taking.

I'm taking the perspective of we choose to wear things that we enjoy because we like many many things about them, not just that they are convenient, but also perhaps that they represent us in the world in a way that we like or that they make us feel a certain way about ourselves.

And the comment about, you know, they feel dirty to my legs, I don't think he thinks about that.

Mike, you have a very wonderful spouse.

I think you probably agree.

Yes, I am very lucky.

For most people, cargo pants alone, never mind one single pair,

would be a deal breaker.

It would be an article of pre-divorce.

You wouldn't even get to married.

And Gabby, I really appreciate what you say there.

I do not want Mike to feel ashamed of his pants.

I think I share with you a desire for Mike to feel very comfortable and to prioritize his comfort and sense of well-being.

But you say that he has difficulty doing nice things for himself.

Why do you think that is, Gabby?

So

last night, we got a knock on the door at four o'clock in the morning, and it was our neighbor across the street.

And she'd had

and she'd had some kind of plumbing emergency in the night, and her bedroom was flooding because the something under her like main bedroom sink had like popped loose.

And

Mike.

grabbed his flip-flops and like ran across the street at four o'clock in the morning to help this woman and then came back and got all of our old towels and brought them back again

to like help clean up and like support this woman who we you know interact with on a very casual basis once in a while.

This is not like our best friend or anything, but this is just who he is.

Like he thinks first

about the other people in the world.

And I think that is a beautiful, beautiful quality.

And I also think that he deserves that kind of love and regard as well.

Have you thought about just buying him some pants as a present?

I have.

And the reason I don't is because if he doesn't like it, he just won't wear it.

And I don't want to be mad about it.

I guess that that also could come across as being a little passive-aggressive, too.

Yeah.

Mike, if you had

a premium pair of pants in a similarly utilitarian style.

Indeed, if you had pants that had premium levels of utility,

would you

feel better or be happier than you are now in your

pants from

the website where you buy

Chinese ceiling anchor hooks when your

pot rack falls off the ceiling.

That's the last thing I bought there.

I don't know.

Got it.

I'm sorry about your pot rack.

Thank you.

I did.

I found the studs.

So I'm awesome.

Mike, stop thinking about other people, aka Jesse.

Don't worry about his pot rack.

He's going to be fine.

Next time it falls down, I'm going to knock on Mike's door at four o'clock in the morning.

That's right.

Bring your towels.

My pot rack fell.

Honestly, you totally could.

But if you, if you had, instead of the $34

generic option, which I don't think is a horrible option,

they look perfectly fine.

They're unbranded.

They're reasonably tasteful.

But if you had the great version of that,

including potentially, for example, more durable textile, stretch for comfort,

things like that.

How would you feel?

I would feel better, I think.

Gabby says you have some difficulty prioritizing your own comfort, whereas you're more than happy to throw all of your beautiful towels into your neighbor's spilling over poo water or whatever.

How do you feel when she says that you have difficulty prioritizing your self-comfort?

I agree.

That's something I've

been

working on with the help of a therapist.

Mike, do you feel that it might be a little bit easier to transition

if there were

an elf who lived in your house who moved your cargo from one set of pants to the other and put the fresh pants on the floor beside your bed and you didn't even know that it was happening?

Absolutely.

Gabby, are you willing to be a cargo pants elf for your husband?

I am going to say that feels a little codependent to me.

Gabby, you're too smart.

You're too emotionally intelligent.

She is much more intelligent than I am on almost all

every time I come up, every time I come up with a wacky scheme, you bat it away with a simple plea that I honor your own agency and intelligence.

Good for you for being a good advocate for yourself and

for your husband, Mike, whom you love.

What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Gabby?

My ideal ruling would be that

my lovely husband, who absolutely can afford more than one pair of pants, in my estimation is a person who makes less money than him, he can totally like afford more than one pair of pants.

And

I would like for him to have

some clothes that were for every day for the sake of purely ease.

But then some clothes that are really a celebration of who he is and how he feels that he puts on on days where maybe he doesn't feel so good inside, like having something that could give him a little bit of a lift, like a favorite pair of linen pants or a favorite shirt that just makes you feel really spiffy.

That, it's that kind of thing that I, that I would like to see him embrace, not because of how others perceive him, but because of how he perceives himself.

Mike, how do you feel when you hear Gabby's hope for you?

That sounds like a

a wonderful ideal to reach in the future.

That's a very diplomatic answer.

I am an economist.

It sounds like you're saying that that sounds like a wonderful ideal for someone else.

No, I could this be something nice to reach for myself.

I think

I

am

made uncomfortable by the amount of effort I see on moving from where I am now to that.

Mike, have you had clothing in the past that gave you a special fizzy feeling?

Yes.

What clothing is that?

I really had an

actually a very nice pair of linen pants and an exceptionally ugly pair of pajama pants that,

but they both kind of wore out completely.

Linen pants wore out so too quickly and the pajama pants

actually somehow disappeared in a move.

I don't know what happened.

I think someone stole them.

Were these linen pants your wedding pants?

No, I still have those pants.

I don't wear them as much just because they tend to wear out pretty quickly.

Because you've been betrayed by linen before, it sounds like.

I have, yes.

But the linen pants, I believe we have a photo of you in the linen pants at your and Gabby's nuptials, correct?

Yes, that's correct.

Let's take a look at that exhibit.

Mike, is this you over there on the left?

Yes.

Looking so sharp and relaxed?

Yes.

This is a nice outfit.

Not very high contrast, I must say.

Nice pale blue shirt that looks really comfortable.

Nice white linen pants.

You've got a sporty cap on.

Gabby, you look terrific as well.

I don't mean to be superficial, but you both look so handsome and lovely in this photo.

Mike, if I were to rule in your favor, I presume that you would like things to stay just the way they are, right?

Yes, the status quo is good for me.

You are, you are, however,

you mentioned that you've been working with a therapist to address some things in your life, and

you have some somewhat cautiously acknowledged that some discomfort in the in the uh in the service of personal growth is not completely off the table for you.

Correct, yes.

If

so, is there something between Gabby's request that you buy some, you know, more fancy linen pants, for example, and some

different kinds of pants that make you feel good versus just staying with this one pair of khaki cargo pants?

Is there a middle ground between there that

you might request that I rule?

I would

say maybe a

staged transition over a significant period of time, maybe with, and some research to make sure that the linen does not wear out as quickly or betray me again.

I understand.

We've all been hurt by linen before, trust me.

I'll be taking that into real consideration.

Mike, that's a quick sotic quest.

We know that linen is the great betrayer.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Okay, yeah, I'm going to go into my chambers here at Headgum Studios in New York City, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mike, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

Not horrible, not great either, but I think there's a good compromise along the way, I think.

Gabby, how are you feeling?

I feel okay.

I just want what's best, you know?

I don't want to be strong-arming anybody.

Hey guys, can I show you something?

Absolutely.

I'm going to have to stand on my chair.

Hold on.

Oh, nice.

See, see?

People don't ordinarily get to see my lower half on the video stream unless there are multiple cameras in the studio, in which case I'm usually wearing my bailiff pants.

But today, I'm wearing the casual pants in which I entered the office.

And they are indeed cargo pants.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

I sure don't.

That's why I started rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

Join me and a bevy of special guests as we discuss every episode of Archer starting from the very beginning.

Archer executive producer Casey Willis and editor Christian Danley will provide insight and fun and help me remember everything I've forgotten about Archer, which is a lot.

So, join me on rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org because I can't wait to watch Archer again for the very first time.

The Wizards Answer eight by eight.

The Cornclave's call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

until

a conflagration

63

and 62 they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die,

till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all-wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

You've got the second season of ePleuribus Motto right around the corner.

Season one available now.

That's right, Jesse.

EPLuribus Motto is the new podcast that your friend and mine, Janet Varney, and I co-host.

We cover the state mottos of the states and commonwealths and districts.

Season two drops July 8th.

Season one is available now if you'd like to catch up.

Upcoming in season two, we've got Kentucky, Minnesota, New Mexico, and many others.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

And it's not just state mottos.

It's also state animals, state birds, state drinks, state snacks, state whatever.

It's trivia.

It's dumb.

It's fun.

Listen.

John, what's the best

weird official state something or other that you've learned about so far?

Or maybe that's coming up in season two?

Well,

Jesse, there are a lot of good ones, but I'll go ahead and tell you the worst.

State beverage milk in, I think, 28 states.

Holy cow.

Big dairy is huge, but I'll tell you what it goes really well with, that milk, the state snack of Maine, the whoopie pie.

Oh.

That's like a marshmallow thing?

It's like two chocolate sponge cakes about the size of a bear paw

that smushed around a big hunk of whipped cream.

It's delicious.

I'll tell you what it's better than.

The Needham.

What's that?

Needhams are a main regional delicacy, chocolate dessert delicacy.

It's chocolate and robin coconut and mashed potato.

The Needham.

Oh, right.

You gave me one of those in an airport once.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like to trick you.

What do you got coming up, Jesse Thorne?

Something happening on Bullseye?

Well, I don't know if any freaking nerds listen to this podcast, but obviously I'm Artsy.

But if you're interested, just recently on Bullseye, we've had George DeKay and Mark Hamill.

Whoa,

both totally amazing human beings, fascinating interviews.

Right there on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

Go watch them on YouTube

or listen in your favorite podcast app.

Make sure and smash those subscribe and like buttons.

Oh my,

San Francisco.

I was born here.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I really hate pants.

I really hate putting them on.

And I really hate taking them off.

Shorts, I'm fine with, but pants, I've always been challenging to fit.

My body is not shaped like a normal human person body.

In the pants department,

the proportions that are

used to size pants for most people

don't really work for my

waist-leg ratio.

And it's always very humiliating

to go into a store and to try on pants because I can't I have to try them on because so few pants fit me very well at all and really once I've found a pair of pants that works for me I really have to lock in but that experience of going in and taking off pants and trying on pants it makes me very very self-conscious and it makes me want to sign up for a an Albuquerque based chorus where I can work through my bad feelings on this subject.

It's like, I hate pants.

I hate everything about them.

And I totally respect and aim to honor Mike's comfort, not only in his own pants, but in his own skin.

Especially since, you know, it is clear, Mike, that

the change in routine is not comfortable for you.

And

I want to respect that.

At the same time,

as much as I appreciate, as I'm sure you do too, Mike,

Gabby's

hopes and wishes for you, I think we got to take linen off the table for now.

I think that that's too much of a change

insofar as

we're just trying to figure out a day-to-day

life that might be of increased comfort for you over time, Mike.

And also,

I hate linen as much as I hate pants.

Forget about linen pants.

Yeah, I'm sorry, Jesse.

I don't care for it.

Linen is scratchy.

It scratches and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

There's something I don't like, and that's when I can feel my clothes touching my body.

And linen reminds me that linen is,

as they are saying on the internet, it insists upon itself.

I'm feeling that linen all the time.

Don't care for it, and I sweat easily.

I actually, it's supposedly one of the most

breathable fabrics, and yet anytime I wear linen, I am really hot under the collar.

All of which is to say, we all, we all move around in our own horrible meat bodies.

There are things that we love and there are things we don't love, and fitting them into clothes is a matter of intense personal preference.

And as I say, Mike, I want to honor that for you.

So I'm going to take Lenin away from the conversation for the moment as I am taking those toe shoes off the table.

And you may now take them off the table because that's another topic of conversation.

What I want to talk about are these pants.

You have found pants that you feel comfortable.

And I must say, I appreciate that,

but I do not, it is hard for me to understand because I do not live in your brain brain how it is preferable to wear increasingly dirty pants day after day after day

and then

wash them one time per week.

And

then while you're washing them, to be either bare-bottomed or worse, putting on the bad pants.

You don't deserve to have bad pants in your life, Mike.

Throw them away.

I don't think those pants seem particularly bad or malicious to me, but to you, they're bad, and I think they should go away.

And you should only always ever have good pants in your life by your own definition.

Luckily, you live in New Mexico where cargo pants in the office constitute good pants.

I think

that

you can do a little bit better, not just in terms of your style.

Your style is your your style.

And what I love about you and Gabby is Gabby absolutely respects and

loves your style.

She is not trying to push a different style on you or try to dress you up like some kind of husband doll.

She wants you to prioritize your comfort as much as

anyone needs to, you know.

And I do think, quite honestly,

that you will feel better if you have more than one pair of khaki cargo pants that you love.

One reason that might speak to you a little bit directly is that, as Jesse Thorne has enumerated, believing that having one pair of cargo pants is economical is actually a false economy, particularly if you're buying

relatively cheaply made pants through an online retailer.

These are not pants that are necessarily built to last, as it were, and you are wearing them out faster than you would if they were in a rotation

with other pants.

You would be showing the pants you love more love by having more of them and giving them a chance to rest and relax in the land of enchantment themselves and to air out and et cetera.

They would last longer.

Similarly, I do not think that it would be beyond your pay grade, literally, to purchase another pair or two, or maybe even three

of not too very expensive pants of the kind that you like.

And I would even say that it might be worth exploring.

And I say this sounds like I'm being very facetious here, but I'm not.

Exploring in consultation with Gabby, other people you trust in your life and your own therapist as to whether or not you might try getting a pair of those pants hemmed to the proper length at a tailor and see how you feel about it.

You say that you'll feel uncomfortable, and you might,

but I think that it is part of

growth and process

to

try things that are uncomfortable and see if you can become comfortable in different areas of life.

It is part of being out in the world.

And

I think that you might find yourself feeling a little bit more comfortable in pants that are the right length for you.

Just give it a try, is what I'm saying.

It's not an order.

But I would say that

the main reason

that I am

ruling in a limited way in Gabby's favor today

is that I, one, is that something you said earlier on, which is that

you have to change your shirt every day

because people in the office will notice if you wear the same shirt every day, whereas they're less likely to see that you're wearing the same pants every day.

And I don't think you deserve to live

clothed in a lie.

If you are actively thinking about deceiving your coworkers,

then I think that that's a place of discomfort.

If you're thinking and you're worrying and you're wondering, if your coworkers are noticing that you're wearing the same clothes every day, that's not a fun place to be necessarily.

Even though the reality is, most people don't notice what you're wearing ever, pretty much.

Like

very few people ever notice.

So I think you deserve to not live in a lie.

And I think that you deserve to try out to get rid of the bad pants, get more of the good pants, experiment with making one pair of those pants potentially a little gooder by having them hemmed.

Give it a try.

And give a try to rotating them a little bit more often.

It may not work for you.

If this were a true hygiene issue, I'm sure Gabby would be able to say, these pants stink.

But that's not at issue here.

What's at issue here is your own comfort.

You've reached a certain point of comfort.

I think that you can go a little bit further to become uncomfortable and to grow a little bit into

having more than one pair of pants that you like.

Get three or four identical pairs of pants that you like and see how it goes.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Okay, it has a lot of pockets, but I use them all the time and I made some of my own modifications.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Gabby, how are you feeling right now?

I feel good.

I am looking forward to

helping support this routine and this change in a way that makes it more comfortable.

And

yeah, just continuing to support this journey.

Mike, how about you?

I'm

very...

Feel very happy that everyone's think so well and is looking out for me, especially my wife.

And yeah, I'm willing to

try out this new path and see what happens.

Everybody except your elderly across-the-street neighbor, she's only looking out for herself.

No, she looks out for us.

She's not in our debt.

I'll put it that way.

Mike Gabby, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case now in the books.

We've got Swift Justice coming up in just a second.

Our thanks to Redator, the Rhubarbian for naming this week's episode Breaches of Contract.

Have you noticed how many of the people who come up with the puns that become the titles of our episodes, their Reddit names are puns?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Punners like punning.

Yeah,

Reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun is where you can chat about this show and all Max Fun shows on Reddit.

That's also where we ask for title suggestions.

You can find the evidence from this show on on our Instagram account at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Of course, on our website at maximumfun.org.

You can also find video from this episode on TikTok and YouTube at JudgeJohn Hodgman pod.

John, they say the proof is in the pudding and the cargo pants pudding is there on YouTube.

You want to see that I'm wearing cargo pants.

Oh, yeah.

And may I presume you have pudding in your pockets?

I do.

I've got, I mean, that's what the cargo pants are for.

I mean, you can't, you can't put the pudding in the same pocket as your keys and wallet.

They give you leg pockets for the pudding.

Speaking of YouTube, our YouTube comment of the week is right here on this device.

I'm going to read it to you.

It comes from user Ness

V739.

If that's a pun, I don't know what it's for.

We recently cleared the docket of shopping-related disputes you might remember here on the podcast.

And Ness V739 regrets.

I asked people, is there something that they wish they had bought in a store and then they came back to buy it later and it was gone and they regretted it for the rest of their life?

Like I regret not buying that painting of a UFO over the Deer Isle Bridge in Maine.

Right.

Ness V739 regrets not buying a life-sized fiberglass hammerhead shark.

Wow.

Writing, I walked by the antique store every day desperately trying to think of somewhere I could put that shark.

Sadly, I had no room for it, and someone else must have admired it too.

After a few weeks, the life-sized fiberglass hammerhead shark was gone.

And I've never stopped thinking about it.

I really feel bad about that.

You got, look, you got to get the life-sized hammerhead shark, even if you got nowhere to store it.

If you're thinking about it that much, I'm not trying to bill-ny bully you into it.

I'm just saying if you're thinking about it, get it.

I love to read your comments on our YouTube videos.

Please leave them.

Leaving a comment on the YouTube video or on our Instagram or other social media posts really help people discover the show, as does sharing those episodes that you love.

And it couldn't be easier to do.

If you're watching on YouTube right now, there's probably a little button with an arrow on it.

Press share.

Share it with someone you love.

Share with someone you just like.

I don't care.

Share.

That's the motto.

I don't care.

Share.

Butterscotch pudding in the pockets.

Right there in the pockets.

Right there in the pockets.

Oh my, you don't say.

I say, I say.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's just off the dome.

Yeah, that's off the dome.

Take that, Lynn Manuel Miranda.

Listening right now.

Hi, Lynn.

Hi, Lynn.

You're well.

Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Lester Watts at Albuquerque Podcast Studio and by Giacomo Jake Allegro at Headgum in New York City.

Thanks to all of them, our social media manager, Dan Telford.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKee, and our video editor is Daniel Speer, our producer, Jennifer Marmer.

You ready for Swift Justice, John?

You got to know the territory.

I'm ready.

Versus the world again, on the MaxFun subreddit says, I like to eat leftovers for lunch, but I don't heat them up.

I'll eat anything cold.

Enchiladas, pasta, soup, whatever.

My partner thinks I'm what's wrong with this world.

I can't think of anything else wrong with this world right now.

Yeah, I know.

The real problem is that this person's eating cold soup at the office.

Yeah, look, I mean, you choose your battles and cold soup is,

well, that's a loser for me, but it's a winner for you.

People like what they like, I guess.

And, you know, frankly, I wouldn't want to put my soup into a shared microwave in an office break room either.

So enjoy eating your bowl of snot, but keep it away from me.

At some point, all office microwaves become fish-only microwaves.

Yeah, exactly.

And by the way, it wouldn't even, snot is warmer than your cold soup.

John, I think we need more disputes.

We absolutely do need disputes, Jesse Thorne.

Our show runs on them.

And since we're on the topic of cargo pants, why not more clothing disputes?

Certainly they're contentious.

Are barrel jeans a thing to enjoy or a thing to stop?

What's the best form of sweater?

vest or cardigan?

Those are your options.

Is your family making fun of your caftan?

Won't you let me know that and all of your clothing disputes by simply writing to me at hodgman at maximumfund.org, or you can go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

But you know what?

I'm mentioning the email address again because I want to hear from you.

Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Yes, it goes directly to me.

I'm going to read your dispute and I will send it along to Jennifer Marmor and maybe she'll call you up.

Maybe we'll have you here on the podcast just like we had Gabby and Mike, or maybe we'll do something in the New York Times magazine or save it for a docket.

If you think you have a dispute, then you do.

Send it in.

Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

John, just for the less fashion-savvy listeners, barrel jeans is when you lost all your money in the stock market crash.

And so you nail two canvas straps to the top of a barrel and wear that as clothes.

Yes, that's what barrel jeans are.

And that's why I'm wearing them.

We're eager to hear about all your disputes, no matter what the subject.

Send them to us, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

That is good.

You know, John, I like how you put that.

If you think you've got a dispute, you've got a dispute.

Send it to us, maximumfund.org slash JJ H.O.

Yeah, we'll be, we don't need you to judge whether or not your dispute is good enough.

We'll be the judge.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ H.O.

And we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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