A Jewelry of Your Peers in Ann Arbor

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

With me is Judge John Hodgman.

This week's episode was recorded live in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

This is the first and only time we have ever recorded Judge John Hodgman at a library, in a library.

I hope it's not the last because talk about the epicenter of the Judge John Hodgman audience.

Librarians and library patrons.

They definitely showed up for us in Ann Arbor at that wonderful library that was so kind to host us.

We put on a great show right in front of the graphic novel section.

And I think you're going to hear what a great time it was.

Judge Hodgman, we had a really important correction on the maximum fund subreddit recently.

That's R slash maximum fund.

Yeah.

Not all of our listeners are librarians.

Several mentioned they are library support workers.

Okay, got it.

Yeah, so they work in libraries, but they are not librarians.

Whatever the case, we had a wonderful time

in the jewel in the crown of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and can't wait to go back.

But until then, you get to go back in time with us and listen to this incredible live show that we performed right there at the Ann Arbor Downtown District Library.

People of Ann Arbor, you asked us for live justice and we came to deliver it.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's start our first case.

Please welcome to the stage Peter and Stephen.

Peter says he is Stephen's mentor and life coach.

He hired Stephen 13 years ago in Virginia.

Now they both live in the same Midwestern city.

Peter says Stephen followed him here.

Peter says says that's wrong.

He makes his own decisions because he is a real grown-up boy.

Who's right and who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Welcome, Peter and Stephen.

Thank you for being here.

Who seeks justice in my fake court?

I do.

You are Peter?

Yes, I am.

Peter, let's get this out of the way.

You say that Stephen followed you from where you met, which was where?

Charlottesville, Virginia.

Charlottesville, Virginia.

Followed followed you here to the Midwest, but not here to Ann Arbor, correct?

Not here to Ann Arbor.

And no, where do you both live?

We both live in Columbus, Ohio.

Oh, wow.

Stephen, you could have stayed home and avoided all of this.

And yet you followed me.

You followed Peter here.

I drove him here.

Well, fair enough, but he's the one who's seeking justice.

You agreed to be here to have this fight.

What is your beef with your old boss?

Well, my beef is that he

frequently asked me to acknowledge his role in my life as a life coach and mentor.

Sure.

Part of him asking me to do that and part of him kind of framing our relationship in that way is that he's constantly telling people that I followed him to Columbus.

Sure.

And there's various factors that, you know, we can get into.

And yeah, I just kind of want to reframe our relationship in less of a top-down and more of like an equitable, even across.

Yeah, he considers you, he considers himself to be a father figure and you want to destroy your father.

Essentially, Essentially, and finally grow as a human being.

I understand.

Peter, is

the only life advice you've given to Stephen is to get him to follow you to

Ohio, of all places?

Why did you advise that?

Anyway,

sorry, I'm just pandering.

Peter, what other kind of life advice you've given to Stephen?

Well,

we met when I hired him when he was 23 years old.

I always laughed.

He was a teacher at the time.

He was, it was

a

elementary school, and

you hired Stephen to be a

fifth grade teacher.

That's great.

And it was him and the reigning Georgia teacher of the year.

And I just, there's something about him, you know?

He got the kids.

He's a good guy.

Wait, you're saying that the other candidate for the position was the reigning Georgia teacher of the year.

How did you know they were still reigning?

Would they come with a scepter?

Yeah.

You've got to wear a person to wear a sash.

You've got to wear a sash or a sash.

Got it.

They talked about it quite a lot.

Yes.

And you're still shitting on them.

Yeah.

John, you know what you get when you're teacher of the year?

No, what?

Free pizza party?

Free pizza party.

Class outside?

Yeah.

Okay, so you hired him to be a fifth grade teacher.

Yep.

We bought him his first set, myself and a co-worker bought him his first set of grown-up sheets.

That just means actual sheets for his bed.

Was he in fifth grade?

Wait,

prior to that, he was using a sleeping bag and a t-shirt as a pillowcase.

Is this true?

Yeah, you got to understand I was living that kind of rock star lifestyle of an elementary teacher at the time.

Had you been a teacher already?

For one year.

And did you?

It wasn't my first pair of bed sheets.

It was the first pair at a new place.

Were you sleeping in the sleeping bag with the...

No, hold on, John.

Your first pair at a new place?

Did you, like, velveteen rabbit everything from the old place?

I don't remember the circumstances that led me to not having bed sheets.

Okay.

What were on the sheets that he got?

Transformers?

What?

Well, yeah.

So actually, we were going to purchase him ones like that.

We decided he's a big boy now, and we got him just some plain sheets that looked adultish.

We thought that was the best way to...

actually be nice.

When you were sleeping in your sleeping bag, was it under your desk in your classroom?

It was in the basement I was living in at the time.

Okay, fair enough.

And

you bought him some new sheets or you convinced him to buy some new sheets.

What about his head?

We actually purchased the sheets.

We convinced him to shave his head entirely.

Before that, there was some hair, and it took some years off his life.

He looked at the strapping man he is today, but, you know.

May I ask how old you are?

I'm 36.

Well, you look terrific.

Thank you.

I don't know what.

I mean, I notice you still are completely shaven on your head.

Correct.

And I would like to add that when he says he like convinced me and he's framing it like a father what he means is he berated me constantly until i decided shaving it was the move he was your principal commenting on your personal and physical appearance did it ever occur to you that you could sue him into oblivion not until right now

it was on the rubric so yeah

steven did peter give you good advice Oh, absolutely.

I can't argue that.

The shaving the head was great, for sure.

Right.

Yeah.

Sheets are pretty good, too, right?

Absolutely.

Let me ask you this question.

I mean, the teacher, do you still use sheets?

I do.

It seems like case clothes, Jesse still uses sheets.

What are you talking about?

Percale, setine, what, flannel, washed flannel?

Oxford.

Oxford.

What kind of sheets do you have?

Do you even know?

I don't know.

Oh, really?

Why?

Because Peter's still buying them for you.

Peter, why did you move to Columbus, Ohio?

I actually grew up outside of Cleveland, so when our kids became school-aged, it was time to come back closer to family.

We were an hour from the in-laws, an hour from my family.

Did you come to the Thurber Prize event where I lost?

No, but I remember when you were here for that and we didn't make it.

But I'm glad.

Stephen, did you follow him to Columbus?

Yes or no?

In the sense that, yes, he moved to Columbus and then less than a year later, I moved there.

Yes.

How did it come to pass?

Because I have

family that lives there.

My sister-in-law lives there.

Weird Columbus.

Columbus.

Okay.

But you wanted to change.

You're telling me you had nothing to do with the fact that Peter was already there.

It was a lovely circumstance surrounding my move to Columbus, but it wasn't the reason why.

Right.

Okay.

And do you work together now?

We do.

We still work together.

I was one of his references.

In a school, presumably?

Yes.

Well, thank you for being teachers, by the way.

That's terrific.

library crowd, they're going to clap for teachers.

And you are.

You know what?

Thanks to firefighters, too, for keeping our houses from burning down.

And your friends.

And mobs.

But that's it.

No one else gets thanked.

Doing the good work is its own reward.

Your friends?

Absolutely.

Okay, but this is an ongoing dispute.

Stephen, how does it feel when Peter says that you followed him to Columbus?

Infiting.

It's not, yes, and it's objectively not true.

And it's a story.

He's a storyteller.

It's a story I hear a lot.

Thank you to the storytellers.

Right, Jesse?

Thank you to the storytellers.

Where would we be without them?

Yeah.

They help us make that sense of things.

Okay, maybe you're having some dental pain

We are in Michigan the the crown so to speak

The jewel in the crown of dental hygiene

John at the end of the day, we're all just storytellers especially ad guys that want to tell you about how they're storytellers

So you uh you

how does it feel when Peter says that you followed him here?

How does it make you feel?

I feel like it's a little reductive to how I view our friendship.

Does he tell funny stories about you that make you feel humiliated and infantilized by any chance?

At any chance that he gets, and I feel like he's actually won by having this audience now tonight.

What kind of stories do you tell about Little Bitty Steven, Peter?

I mean, I love the one about how when he met his wife, he came to me for advice as a life coach or mentor might be serving that role.

And he said, you know, he was really into her, but they were roommates, and he was concerned that there were nine months left on the lease.

And so what if it didn't work out?

What if she didn't?

It seems a tricky maneuver.

But now they have two kids.

And you are falling in love with a roommate and you only have one pair of sheets that you just bought.

But

so, what advice did you give him?

I told him to go for it.

You know, if he really was into her, let's go for it.

And it's turned out amazing.

He has an awesome wife and an awesome kids.

And that's so you're married now, you have two kids.

I am, yeah.

But you no longer live together.

Weird.

Still, still cohabitating then?

We are.

Good job.

So, Stephen, that's a lovely story to tell.

How does this affect you?

It's maybe

the frequency of which the stories are told, coupled with the

who he's telling them to.

And it often requires me professionally to kind of like maybe backtrack and say, okay, yeah, that's a funny story.

Ha ha.

I actually moved here for adult reasons.

The story that he told about you meeting your wife is not a funny story.

Oh, no.

The story that he told about you following him to Columbus is

honestly not a great story.

Not very funny.

I mean, is there any other story that he tells about you, or is this about?

Oh, no, there's a lot more.

Well, give me an example that would make him look bad.

He, there's one time he like we were running this race where you have to do obstacles.

It was like maybe, I don't know, a five-mile race.

Oh, you're runners.

Well, is that not obvious?

I know this.

He looks like one of the the fastest fifth grade teachers in the land.

And I cramped up pretty bad at the end, and he had to carry me across the finish line.

So that's a story he tells.

I'd like to add that he had a short smell function, so he was also just in his underwear at this point.

I just put it together that you said a short smell function.

I thought you said short smell function.

I thought I was having a stroke.

Was there something cute on his Sunday pants?

They matched the sheets, so it was right.

Is it infantilizing to you when

he tells these stories to others?

I love the jokes.

I love the self-deprecating humor.

I like to tell them, but sometimes in the professional setting, it is a little.

Do you feel it undermines you professionally?

Occasionally.

Has he ever told one of these stories in front of the 10-year-olds?

Probably.

Do you have difficulty acknowledging, Peter, that Stephen is a grown-up man now?

No, not at all.

I mean, as we've actually talked about this before, he's an awesome guy.

Love him as a friend.

We both love the banter we get to give each other.

And again, as a life coach and mentor, I just

got to teach him that.

I've got to help guide that for him.

Do you feel you need to keep him in his place by telling these stories?

I mean, that might be my only hope.

He's really, like I said, he's a great dude.

So.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, he's, have you asked him to stop telling the stories before, Stephen, before now?

Not really.

I think I have asked that I not like acknowledge him publicly as my mentor.

You don't want to acknowledge him as your mentor.

I mean, not in most settings.

I thought tonight was the right setting, but

have you not asked in the past because you're afraid daddy will be mad with you?

I mean, that's very likely that that could be some of my deep-seated reasons.

Now that you've heard, now that you've you've heard that uh stephen is uncomfortable with these stories peter why do you keep telling them um i i do this is going to sound like i'm not a very nice person but it is part of our banter we both like to tell silly stories about each other there's plenty he has i'm sure on me whether they're appropriate for well if you both like to tell them wouldn't you have heard one before

i think i've heard some but i mean

i don't know all right you're you're his boss now currently?

No.

No.

You're not his direct supervisor anymore?

Not at all.

No.

Okay.

Stephen, you like me to order that Peter stop saying that you followed him to Columbus and stop telling these stories in general.

Is that right?

Not in general.

Maybe just be a little bit more prudent about the setting.

And he wants me to acknowledge that I'm his life coach.

I would just like him to acknowledge that it's really awesome that our life circumstances brought us back to the same place and we like have this great friendship.

I agree.

That is my order to you as well.

Say it.

He didn't follow me to Columbus.

He didn't follow me to Columbus.

No one should follow me to Columbus.

Nobody should follow me to Columbus.

Who on their right mind would follow anyone to Columbus?

This is the sound of a gap.

Thank you, Peter and Stephen.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join and you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Please welcome to the stage

Eva and Glenn.

Eva and Glenn to the stage, please.

What's going on with Eva and Glenn, Jesse?

Eva and Glenn are longtime friends.

You used to work together at a law firm.

Eva says she's now a recovering attorney.

She also says that Glenn owes her a cruise, but Glenn says Eva's gone overboard.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I wrote that joke.

He wrote that.

John wrote that in.

Eva's gone overboard.

Yeah.

Took a little bit overboard in her demanding of a cruise.

It says went overboard.

And then right here next to it in italics, it says, no alts.

No, yeah,

don't improvise.

Yeah.

Read as written.

Hello, Eva.

Do you seek justice in my fake court?

Yes or no?

Yes.

And you used to work with Glenn.

That's true.

But your relationship used to be different.

Or there was a personal relationship as well.

Can you explain?

Yes.

Originally, we were colleagues who worked together in the same firm.

And as we worked together and got to know each other better, we started to become friends.

And then we ended up hanging out outside of the office.

And we've been good friends for 19 years now.

And you got to know his family to a certain degree?

Absolutely.

And just as a friend?

Yes.

Right.

But did Glenn ever represent that your relationship was different to his family?

He absolutely did multiple times.

How would that misrepresentation take shape?

Well, when we were colleagues, Glenn had not yet come out to me and in fact was not out at all.

And so he used me as a beard with his family

without my knowledge or consent.

Glenn, did you tell your family that Eva was your girlfriend?

I did say a woman named named Eva was my girlfriend.

Yes.

You're clearly still a practicing attorney.

Might not have necessarily been this Eva, but Eva.

That's correct.

Ann Eva, I suppose I should say.

Ann Eva.

Okay.

And Eva was.

And how long did your family believe that you had a girlfriend named Ann Eva?

Ann Eva.

Probably a good, maybe.

two years.

Very quick two years, maybe.

Maybe a year and a half.

Okay, that's two cruises, Your Honor.

Well, all right, tell me about the cruises.

Now, you go on an annual cruise with your family.

Is that correct, Len?

Well, at the time, my stepmom's mother paid for the entire family and our legitimate significant others.

You mean your non-fictional significant others?

Right, right.

To take a cruise.

And well, I went solo because I didn't honestly have a legitimate.

Did your family invite you to invite and they did.

They did.

And Eva, but I didn't have a true Eva, so there was no.

I am the only Eva.

Right.

So.

Let me ask you this, Counselor.

Did your family believe that this Eva was the Eva?

Possibly.

Maybe.

I

think that may have been the case.

I can't really recall if

she met them after coming out prior.

It could have been.

Her mother loves me.

Right.

I think it probably was post coming out, but.

That's irrelevant.

Right.

Was there a reason that you didn't want to bring this Eva on the cruise?

You know, those stateroom cabins are really small.

Short

and stuffy.

Especially if in the inside room, maybe, you know, which back then I may have.

But Eva brought her own sleeping bag and it's for a pillow.

I just don't think that sleeping in a little cabin like that for a week would be on either of our bucket lists.

It would have been nice to have the choice.

Right.

Yeah, but I mean, Eva, you have to acknowledge that Glenn at this time, your friend, was struggling with acknowledging his own truth.

So

himself.

Glenn, would it be reasonable to say that you were willing to lead your family on to a certain extent to say, yes, I have a girlfriend named Eva, and it might be that one over there, but to actually bring her on to the cruise would be a level of deception that made you feel uncomfortable.

Exactly.

But

then you did acknowledge your own truth to yourself and to your family, and congratulations for that.

Oh, thanks.

And do you have a significant other now?

Yes, my Eva turned out to be a six-foot-three guy named Mike.

Mike,

is Mike here?

He is right here.

Mike,

would you please stand up and be acknowledged?

Let the record reflect that Mike waved adorably.

Let the record reflect that Mike is a snack.

So I ask you this counselor,

has Mike ever been on a cruise?

He has been on several cruises yesterday.

Jacques Cruz.

It had to be done, Jesse.

It had to be done.

No alts.

No alts.

Even though we've made that joke before, no alts.

In your honor?

Oh, yes.

Hi.

If I could contribute,

uh did speak with mike briefly prior to us coming up here to ask just how many cruises he has been on with glenn oh interesting and he estimated 15.

now

are these all family cruises or maybe some no no no the vast majority are non-family cruises my stepmoms got me into cruises and got Mike into cruises and we just like them.

We take a lot of cruises.

So yeah, we take quite a few.

And

where do you go?

Do you have a preferred line?

Oh, God.

Yeah, we like the Norwegian cruise line.

We're going to Greece next year.

Sounds great.

Now, these are certainly my Eva.

Have you ever been to Greece?

No.

Glenn, where else have you gone?

Oh, well, we Barcelona, but you know, we of course do.

No, no, on Barcelona.

I don't even know to do the TH, legitimately.

No, on Barcelona.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, well, Glenn, you know.

So this one.

So, Glenn, why don't you take Eva on a cruise?

I mean,

she did you a solid for a period of time, right?

She did, but I don't know if that can really be quantified.

I mean, you know, being able to say that she was associated with me in that manner.

I mean, wouldn't she like that?

You know, I'm not sure if that, what's the harm?

How are the damages?

There's harm.

Okay, Eva.

Make your case, Eva.

You are a recovering attorney.

I am.

I've never practiced law in my life.

Why don't you show me how it's done?

If I can remember back that far.

Sure.

Well, there was the harm that I was single at the time and interested in dating not this guy, but

a guy, perhaps my

Eva.

You're saying that you might have gone on a cruise with Glenn and his family as Glenn's fake paramour.

No.

And then you would have found a paramour of your own on the cruise?

No.

Come on, Glenn.

That would have been fun.

That would have been a crowded little stateroom.

That would have been a French farce or a rom-com.

Let's do it.

Needed a sign for the door, I guess.

So I did not know what I was missing at the time because, again, I did not consent or was not made aware of being his beard.

Oh, you didn't know that you were being represented?

No.

How did you feel when you found out?

And how did you find out?

I felt used.

Well,

let me reverse those questions.

How did you find out?

You probably told me.

I volunteered that information, but oh, maybe I just said a person with your same name was

happening, my fake significant other when I would go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving, and you get those questions incessantly.

Who are you dating?

Who are you dating?

And finally, someone named Eva.

It's Eva.

Yep.

Eva, did you ever have to IRL impersonate the girlfriend?

Did you ever have to show up to something as the girlfriend?

I did not because I was unaware I had been cast in that role.

Would you have been willing to go on the cruise if you had to act as Glenn's girlfriend?

Sure.

Do you want to go on a cruise that badly?

I've never been, Your Honor, and my husband's not interested.

I've been on some cruises.

Yeah.

They're fine.

I mean, to be fair, there's a ton of soft serve.

There's so much soft serve.

It's crazy.

That's pretty compelling.

If you like being on an incredibly gaudy, fallen-down hotel floating through an infinite abyss that reminds you of death, it's for you.

And by the way, I do.

I love it.

I think I would, but

my husband looks at it the same way you do.

So

this is my only chance.

Where would you go on your cruise if I were to order Glenn to take you on a cruise?

Well, Greece sounds good.

Greece sounds good.

Actually, it's Greece.

Or he could take me on one of the Broadway cruises.

What are the Broadway cruises?

What are they?

They're cruises that have some people who are stars on Broadway on the ship as entertainment, and they interact with people and do some classes, things like that.

Are you still friends?

Glenn, Eva?

We're good friends.

Good friends?

I mean, at the moment.

Yes.

What would be your objection to taking your friend on a cruise?

I presume Mike would come too, right?

Do you like Mike?

Everyone likes Mike, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, that guy's a snake.

Yeah.

Everyone loves loves Mike.

What would be your objection to taking Eva on a cruise with you and Mike?

Oh, she'd be more than welcome to come.

You know, just have the MX card ready and, you know, we're all over.

We are on our way.

We are on our way.

Glenn, hold hard cash.

You mentioned that you've been on perhaps 15 cruises.

Yeah, quite a few.

You cruise on Norwegian cruise lines?

Yeah, there and some other ones too.

I presume that you belong to their frequent sailor club or whatever.

We do, yeah.

The Platinum Mariner or whatever it is.

We took a RuPaul Drag Race cruise.

That was really fun.

I love that.

Stop bragging about it.

What I'm saying is that surely, with the amount of status that you've earned as a frequent cruiser, surely you could probably get Eva a pretty good deal on a cruise, the three of you together, even if it's a short one.

Wouldn't you agree?

No.

Well, luckily for Eva, I agree with myself.

Cash in your chips and get Eva a cruise.

Go take her on a cruise.

Say thank you.

Thank you to Eva.

Thank you for being here.

Have fun.

Bon voyage.

Thank you, Eva and Glenn.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts

all right we're over 70 episodes into our show let's learn everything so let's do a quick progress check have we learned about quantum physics yes episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, I know that we disappointed some Chicagoans because there was not a Chicago date on our last tour.

It just didn't fit into the scripture.

The right venue wasn't available.

It just happens sometimes.

We love Chicago.

It's my kind of town.

But I have good news for all you Chicagoans and those in the Chicago area.

Very, very shortly on April 11th.

I am bringing my other comedy podcast, Jordan and Jesse, go to Chicago in the wonderful club Sleeping Village.

Jordan and I will be doing all kinds of nonsense.

John, I just wrote a quiz

that is called

Spirit Halloween Superstore Automaton Performer from the Gathering of the Juggalos or some SH we made up,

where you have to figure out which is a music act from the Gathering of the Juggalos, which is a thing you can buy at Spirit Halloween Superstore, and which is just some nonsense I wrote.

We will also be joined by two monumental podcasting celebrities.

One of them is Sam Regal from the huge, huge podcast, Critical Role, and from its very successful Amazon television show.

He also, John.

A lot of people ask me, well, that's great.

He's a very successful podcaster on Critical Role,

but did he ever play the character Phoenix Wright, ace attorney, in a legal simulator anime video game?

The answer is, yes, he did.

Okay.

Yes, he did.

And then Peter Sagal is there too.

Yeah, Peter Sagal from WaitWait, Don't Tell Me is also going to be there.

And of course, from Runner's World magazine.

You know him best as a columnist from Runner's World, but he's also the host of NPR's WaitWait Don't Tell Me.

Two princes of the land of Lincoln joining you and your best friend, Jordan Morris, for a night of comedy at Sleeping Village on April 11th.

Jesse, I'm mad because I love Chicago and I love you guys and I wish I could be there, but I'm going to be upstate New York helping our daughter adopt a cat.

So sorry.

John, I'll eat a beef for you and I'll see everybody April 11th.

The tickets are on sale now.

You can find all of the information, maximumfund.org slash events, and I will see you April 11th.

As for me, I've got nothing going on right now, but I will remind you, please go check out our friend Gene Gray's new book.

It's an incredible new book called In My Remaining Years.

It's funny.

It's wise.

It's spicy.

It's hysterical.

It's the book you have to go and get right away.

Please, In My Remaining Years by Gene Gray, go and get it wherever books are sold or loaned.

Let's get back to the show.

Ann Arbor, Michigan, are you ready for mega justice?

Let's bring out our litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Callie and Nick.

Tonight's case, a jewelry of your peers.

Callie brings the case against her brother, Nick.

They both lay claim to a family heirloom, their father's very cool ring in the shape of a lion's head.

The only problem is their dad is still alive.

Callie says she wants the ring when their father goes, but Nick says the ring should be buried with dad.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

He thought

of all the things that he kept in his own pockets.

Fish bones, goblins' teeth, wet shells, a bit of batwing, a sharp stone to sharpen his fangs on, and other nasty things.

He kept, he tried to think what other people kept in their pockets and finally said, a pie hole or nothing.

Wrong, said Judge John Hodgman.

All guesses are wrong.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Callie and Nick, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he never found his courage?

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Callie and Nick, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I mostly quoted and then paraphrased at the end as I entered this courtroom?

But before you guess, may I ask you a question?

Are you both both chewing gum?

May I ask you to say yes into the microphone?

Yes, yes.

Very good.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse Forrest.

As the Spanish teacher at my high school used to say, Chicle la Ba!

Welcome to the recording of a podcast.

Callie, why don't you guess first?

Sounds like something from the Hobbit.

I have nothing more specific than that.

I see.

Something from The Hobbit.

I'll write that down in the guest book.

B-I-T.

All right.

Now, Nick, what's your guess?

My guess is that it is the Hobbit when there is a riddle competition between

Smeagol and I cannot remember.

I should have known you both would know this one.

I mean, it's not very obscure and of course it was written by J.R.R.

Tolkien, a famous Ann Arborean,

technically born in Ypsilanti, but

did most of his living and writing right here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, staying frequently at the campus inn, now the graduate.

Local humor.

Can either of you name the name of the chapter that it comes from?

I cannot.

I'm going to say 13.

All guesses are wrong.

Riddles in the Dark was the name of the chapter, and that is, of course,

when Gollum Smeagel, as you rightly pointed out, Nick,

challenged Bilbo Baggins to a game of riddles

because he coveted the ring that Bilbo Baggins had found and had put in his pocket, much like one of you, or both of you, covet the ring that belongs to your dad.

Callie, you seek justice in this court?

I certainly do.

Tell me about this ring.

This ring was given to my father by his father.

It's a gold lion head and both eyes are pearls and the mouth is a ruby.

That sounds hot as hell.

Yes.

That sounds like it would be my precious too.

Yes.

We have a photo of it.

Do we not, Jennifer Marmor?

Yeah.

And did he get it at Shifrin Willens, a famous jeweler in Detroit?

Yeah, wow.

That's a really cool ring for sure.

And you say in the mouth there's a rupee.

Oh, I see it there.

A rupee.

Yeah.

Like his little tongue, like when cats forget to put their tongues back in their mouths.

My favorite thing, those dumb cats.

Thank you very much.

We can take that, take that off.

Now, Nick, it is a very, very cool ring.

How long have you two been fighting over it?

Your brother and sister, correct?

As long as I can remember.

Pretty much.

Yeah, it's always just been like

the who's going to get it one day, so to speak.

Right.

And what does your dad have to say about it?

He has chosen to remain silent and laugh in our faces whenever we try to talk about it.

Why do you think?

And by extension, laugh in the face of death.

Isn't it possible that your dad might write a will someday and decide for both of you?

It is written.

His will is written, and the ring is not mentioned in the will at this point.

So

it's just been revealed that Callie has read your father's will.

I have no idea.

You haven't, Nick?

I have not.

And you think you deserve a ring?

You're not doing the due diligence.

You're not doing the pre-grave dancing that your sister's doing.

You work together?

You're not just brother and sister.

You work in the family business.

What's the family business?

Auto repair.

Auto repair, very cool.

Here in Michigan?

Interesting.

Wouldn't you rather work in a state that has more of a connection to automobiles?

It's really, really tough.

Your dad has not expressed an opinion one way or the other, Nick.

No.

You don't think he has an opinion, or you think he's just keeping it to himself?

Or does his opinion not matter?

I don't think he really has an opinion.

I mean, I don't think he would want to choose between one of his children.

Are there any other siblings involved?

No.

Okay.

Callie, why do you deserve this ring and your brother doesn't?

Who's older, by the way?

I'm older.

Okay, well, there you go.

So said family business is going to be inherited slash boughten by my brother.

Okay.

Because that's his line of work.

Okay, gotcha.

So you work there too, but it's I also work there.

It's just a very...

What are your respective roles in the business?

I'm an office assistant.

I fill in the holes.

He's actually doing like body work and he's, you know.

So that is lined up for him.

He's filling in the holes.

Yes,

exactly.

So that is lined up for him.

Now, granted, he does have to purchase that over time.

Right.

It's not the business won't just go to him.

He's going to have to buy out.

Yes.

So I'm not in line for that, which I don't want.

That's not a part of this equation.

Terrific.

You're not getting it.

Exactly.

But what I do want is this ring.

And why?

Because I have, I'm not a very sentimental person.

Nostalgia is the thief of joy, as is established law.

So

I say it's a toxic impulse, but that's a better way of saying it.

You're right.

Yeah.

You're right.

So

I have this picture in my head of my dad every Sunday morning before we would go to church as kids.

We would all get together and get ready in their bathroom when we were really little kids.

And he would open his arm wire and he would have his suit jacket or his tweed coat or whatever on he would open the arm wire and he would take the ring out of the box and he would put it on his finger and he would wear it every Sunday and anytime there's a special event or

like a wedding or you know something special going on he always wears it so that is why I would like it as something sentimental for myself Because Nick has never observed this ritual that your dad has?

I mean, Nick doesn't even know what an armoire is.

not because he hasn't observed it but because he is getting the legacy of my father's business right and i think i could have a small piece of sentimental

um like a memory for like a token a memory right yeah and is the ring important to your i mean he obviously

you know, wears it to important occasions.

Yeah.

What does it mean to your dad, the ring?

He hasn't expressed anything like specific.

Like his dad gave it to him while he was in high school.

So I'm sure it's significant in the sense that like his father gave it to him.

But you don't know.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

You don't know what your dad wants to do with the ring.

You don't know what it means to him.

Has your dad ever spoken to either of you?

He said,

it's a class ring.

It's a medium of body work.

His father had a similar ring and I think he admired that his dad had one.

Right.

So he bought it for him as like a class ring for him when he was.

Oh my gosh.

So he wears it only for special occasions like weddings, christenings,

his own funeral.

What do you think is the proper distribution of the ring, Nick?

What do you want with it?

I don't know.

Like she has an image of him

of like she wants it for the sentimental value because she sees him with it.

I just always see it as like a part of him.

So like to me, I'm like the captain.

I always make a joke with him about it whenever we're disputing it as a family.

And I'm like, the captain should go down with the ship, so to speak.

So, you're saying the ring should be buried with the father?

Yes.

It should go down with the ship of his body.

Yes.

You don't.

What else do you think should be buried with him?

All his cats, a bunch of honey,

a thousand play warriors.

What kind of cars do you work on?

All kinds?

Anything.

Yeah.

Okay.

Like, so like 5,000 Plymouth Furies can be in his temple as well?

A 29 Model A.

Is that what he's going to do?

Is that going to be his casket?

Yeah.

No.

He has one.

Does your dad love how much you're thinking about his own funeral?

He has mentioned that.

What is his age?

He's 56.

He's a young man.

It's never too early to plan.

Wow.

Didn't think.

By the way, John, nice ring.

No wonder he's not taking you seriously.

He's probably going to outlive all of us.

So you don't want the ring, Nick.

You want the ring to go into the earth with your dad.

I'm not opposed to like keeping it, but I was more suggesting that so that there would be no like dispute between us.

You actually suggested to our producer, Jennifer Marmor, a compromise of some kind?

I did.

What would that consist of?

Like a casting of the ring.

Make it duplicate, like take the ring,

have a cast taken, and make new ones.

Correct.

So that we could both have a piece of...

the legacy, so to speak.

You would each have a copy of the ring.

Why is that unsatisfactory to you, Callie?

It's just not the real thing.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

John, you, of all people, a graduate of Yale, know about the progression of the simulacron.

Yeah, art in the age of mechanical reproduction.

I understand the aura, the authentic.

Thank you, Walter Penn.

You mean

1929?

What?

Bottle A.

And that's a car?

Yeah.

All right.

I understand that there was another family ring that that you and Callie split somehow, Nick?

Yes.

What happened there?

Well, she's actually wearing part of it right now.

My grandmother had

a diamond ring when she was married, and she gave it to my mother.

And my mother, she got married first, and she said that you guys can split this ring.

And she got married first, so she took the...

Callie got married.

Yes.

So the ring had been passed down to your mom.

Yes.

But she is still alive, right?

Correct.

Okay.

I just want to make sure that

she's younger than my dad.

Okay, cool.

Wonderful for both of them.

And then Callie, you got married and your mom offered to give you the ring.

Yeah, she split it up.

So there was five diamonds and the gold.

So I got the large diamond and then he got the four small diamonds and all the gold.

And where are those now?

In your teeth?

You're hanging on.

Are you married?

I am.

Okay.

And where are the diamonds?

I did not get the gold or the diamonds because

they did not fit the style of ring that I wanted to make for my wife.

And so they evaporated?

Correct.

Into cash.

Can't be sentimental in the auto-repair business, can we?

Everything comes to an end.

Some things you just can't repair.

Ultimately, you have to turn it in for cash, trade-in value.

How did you feel when your brother sold

half of your mom's wedding ring?

It's a personal choice.

I think this just goes to show that he doesn't value sentimental objects like I do.

All right, fair.

And is this ring splittable?

The lion head?

No.

No.

No.

You can't pry that ruby out of its mouth.

You can't gouge out its diamond eyes

because

you take the curse of the pharaoh.

Yeah, but Nick would cash in those diamonds for some money.

When do you want the ring to come down to you, Callie?

After your father passes away or something?

Whenever the time is right.

If he wants to part with it before he passes, amazing.

If not, after he passes is great.

She has gone to him at gatherings and taken the ring and just walked around and sort of

flaunted it for gatherings.

Yes.

Do you have it with you now?

We thought about it, but we chose to keep it where it belongs.

Because you knew I would take it.

Anyone who sees that beautiful ring wants it.

We all want that ring.

Now everyone here in the lobby at the library has seen the ring and is under its spell.

All of these two or 300 people are going to be coming for your dad's ring.

How will it be safeguarded?

I think I've heard enough to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Nick.

Nick, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

We'll see what happens.

I don't know.

It's admirably.

You're like, I don't know.

I didn't have anything better to do.

Callie, how are you feeling?

Unfortunately, I do feel like he has a better case,

but I'm still feeling very confident.

What if you just split it lengthwise and each of the award is a single stud earring?

Idea.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Some time ago in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York, I went into a coffee shop, and there was a young barista there, and the barista barista was wearing overalls, among other clothes.

And I know that everyone enjoys jokes, Jesse.

Yeah.

People love jokes.

Jokes and humor.

So I said to this young person, I'll have this coffee, please.

And by the way, you deserve an award in the category of overall excellence.

Everybody loves jokes.

And the young barista said to me, nice dad joke.

A term I had never heard before.

They said to me, nice dad joke, and that's how I died.

I wasn't even 50 years old.

It can happen.

You can die young.

And honestly, as someone who

has a parent who died relatively young, You don't want to wish for a premature death of a parent, someone that you care about and that you love, just to get their cool ring anyway.

I don't think think that that's what you're wishing for, but it came into focus for me that why your dad doesn't take this particularly seriously, because he is on average a person who's got a lot of life ahead of him.

And I wish him many, many, many more years of life, even if you, Callie, don't.

But

I'm going to be honest, okay?

that I think that

you probably should have the ring, Callie.

I'm rooting for you.

Here's why.

One, you told that wonderful story that involved the armoire, and I love an armoire story.

Anything.

An armoire wardrobe, you name it.

I love it.

Yeah.

I double love a story where armoire is pronounced armoire because of some Michigan thing that I don't know about.

Couldn't have been more charming.

And

Nick took his half of the legacy from

your your shared mother and sold it for cash,

which is a reasonable thing to do.

But I think that you made your case very strongly that Nick

has a different understanding of sentiment when it comes to things.

And, you know, what he has an understanding of is he wants to honor his dad and that his dad should take this treasure with him

into

the dirt

or perhaps afterlife if you believe in such a thing.

That's where his sentiment goes.

But to keep and hang on to something is not his thing, right?

So, why should he keep and hang on to something?

I mean, and I think the argument that Nick is taking over the legacy of the family business,

you articulated an absence in your life that could be filled by a cool lion with a ruby in its mouth.

So, I am rooting for you, but as I was reminded when you took the stage, both of you, chewing gum,

like a couple of little rascals,

like a couple of rascallions,

that you're very, very, very young yourself.

It makes sense that your dad is relatively young.

You're going to be young too.

Many, many years to figure this out.

And ultimately, it really is your dad's decision.

I really enjoy the story of you going and sneaking it off your dad's finger and wandering around family events, trying it on for size.

I hope that he understands what it means to you.

And perhaps you could write him a letter or talk to him about it, but ultimately it really has to be his decision, not mine.

But I'll tell you what, if I were your dead dad,

I'd wish you best of luck with the automobile business.

And I wish you the best of luck keeping your beautiful, cool lionhead ring away from all these monsters who are going to be coming for you because they got the curse.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Pally and Nick, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you to Reddit user Taco Salad for naming the case in this episode.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

We're on YouTube and TikTok at judgejohnhodgman pod.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne.

This episode, recorded by Matthew Barnhart, Dan Telfer is our social media manager.

A.J.

McKeon is our podcast editor.

Daniel Speer is our video editor.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Thank you this week, by the way, to Eli Neuberger at the Ann Arbor District Library, who was nice enough to make this show happen for us.

And also, John?

Yes.

Put up with the social media furor when the tickets sold out too fast.

Tickets Tickets sold out too fast.

People were disappointed.

We got to go back.

We've got to go back.

It's like the island in Lost.

We've got to go back.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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