Time and Rubbishment

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Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm guest bailiff Gene Gray sitting in for Jesse Thorne.

This week, oh, come on, you guys.

Time and rubbishment.

Nick brings the case against his wife, Michelle.

with just one L because she's efficient.

The trash pickup schedule in Nick and Michelle's neighborhood is confusing.

No one knows when to bring their bins out.

Nick wants to put an automated digital sign in their front window that displays the schedule.

But Michelle is opposed.

She says the sign is

tacky.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Trash, won't pick it up.

Take those lights away.

Trash.

Won't pick it up.

Don't throw your life away.

Trash won't pick it up.

Please don't take my podcast away.

Yes, Bailiff, Gene Gray, please swear the litigants in.

Nick and Michelle, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or a manity that you cannot hug because that is illegal.

I do.

I do.

Great.

And do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he keeps saying he's ambidextrous, but I have never seen this put to use?

I do.

I do.

Hmm.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

That doesn't count.

I see what you're doing.

That's not how ambidextrous works.

You can't just clap your hands like a crab.

That's not it.

Well,

if you're watching on the YouTube channel, Judge Shun Hodgman Pod, you'll see that I am using both of my hands.

But I am not ambidextrous.

I am Eunidextrous at best.

And I am doing my imitation of

a main lobster.

One of these is my crusher claw.

The other one of these is my bitey claw.

I don't remember what the claws are for, but this is what they do.

Which one is more delicious?

Oh, that's a really good question, Gene.

Crusher claws bigger than the sharpie claw.

Sharpie claw is mostly used for holding sharpies because lobsters sign a lot of autographs.

Because they are ambidextrous, as everyone knows.

Well, no, but they have, they have, you know what?

I don't know.

Hey, send us a letter if you know.

Are lobsters ambidextrous?

How do you know that's a song?

Are lobsters ambidextrous?

Is that a song?

No, it's lobster.

No, it's lobster, lobster writes with both hands.

Lobster, lobster, plays with those cans.

Because the lobsters also like to kick cans along the seafloor.

I don't know how you don't know these songs.

Okay.

I don't, well,

it's an old main folk song that I should know, I suppose.

I wonder.

I do not know the answer to to this.

Hey, Nick or Michelle, for an immediate summary judgment on one of yours' favors, can either of you say authoritatively whether or not lobsters always have the crusher claw on one side or do they alternate?

In other words, are lobsters handed?

I do not know.

I have no idea.

We're reaching you in Columbus, Ohio, right?

Yes.

And that's on, is that on a river?

It's got to be.

That's on two rivers, the Olentangi and the Sayota.

Say those names again, please.

Olentangi and Sayota.

Okay, I'll commit that to memory.

I don't think you have any river lobsters there in Ohio, though, right?

Definitely not think so.

You don't have any great lake lobsters either.

No, crawfish.

Or do you?

Oh,

lobsters.

Call them lobsterettes.

All right, we'll not talk about lobsters anymore because for actual immediate summary judgment, one of your favorites, can either you, Nick or Michelle, by the way, you may be seated.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

We'll start with you, Nick.

i cannot um i'm gonna guess the cramp song garbage man

the cramps song garbage man that got a big guffaw from social media manager dan delfer out there across the window from me michelle i hate to say it it's a great guess

nick has offered a great guess no pressure

nope no pressure but you better get it right oh goodness i'm gonna guess oscar the grouch from sesame street that is also a great guess right i love that i love that so much.

And I love you both equally in different ways right now.

I get the relationship.

I get the whole thing.

Like that explained a lot about who they are as people.

And I think we can go.

Did Oscar the Grouch ever sit in with the cramps?

Did he ever, yeah, did he ever sit in and play an old?

an old fish skeleton as a harp or something that'd be good wow both guesses are great all guesses are wrong, I'm sorry to say.

It was the lyrics to a song.

And you're absolutely right, Michelle, that I was thinking about

I Love Trash by Oscar the Grouch.

And I'll announce right now on an already rollicking episode of Judge John Hodgman.

Rollicking because I am here in the studios of Maximum Fun.

a podcasting network, an employee-owned cooperative, where I am in Los Angeles.

Jesse Thorne is not here.

What's going on?

But we have wonderful guest bail of Gene Gray.

Hello.

Over there across the country in Baltimore.

And the reason that Gene is here and Jesse is, and Jesse is on a cruise with our friend Jonathan Colton.

Gene and I were left behind.

We really were.

But of course, Gene, you couldn't go on the cruise right now because you've got this incredible book about to come out.

Yes, I had to say no to sailing the seas

because I got to put out some pages pages to the world.

Yeah, you're pushing pages on the world.

In my remaining years, is the name of the book that Jean Gray has written so wonderfully.

It is a wise, a wonderful, a very funny memoir of a, dare I say, a singular life that is not yet ended.

But here you will hear what Jean has to say about her remaining years and all of the years that have led to this very moment.

Go, it is out now.

Right now.

Yeah, it is out now.

Go and get it wherever books are sold or loaned.

And we'll talk more about that later.

But here we are with Nick and Michelle.

The point I was going to make was I'm in Los Angeles.

Oh, yeah.

It's very rollicking because I'm very disoriented.

I've never been in this room alone in my life and I'm a little scared.

Oh.

I'm only ever here when Jesse is here.

I've never sit on this side of the studio.

Unfortunately, I can see myself in the video.

which is very distracting.

We tried to put a post-it note over my face on the iPad, but it didn't work.

Fell off.

So things are just a little off the rails, Nick and Michelle.

In the meantime, that is a great guess.

I decided not to do that one.

Instead, I did a different song.

You would not be surprised to learn that this song, which might have had an influence on, what is it, Garbage Man by the Cramps?

I don't know which came first.

But this is the definitive trash song of New York City, 1970s, by David Johansson and the New York dolls.

Rest in peace and power.

David Johansson just passed away.

Incredible groundbreaking glam rock band.

And then David Johansson put on a bow tie and sang as Buster Poindexter.

Yeah, that happened.

That happened.

And also, fitting that I'm here because I am from trash 1970s New York City.

That's what I'm talking about.

You grew up.

It was me.

I was the garbage.

Hey, it's me.

I'm the garbage.

It's me.

It's me.

That's the other Dosk of the Grouch song.

Yeah, Gene Gregg grew up in the Chelsea Hotel in Chelsea, Manhattan, during a time when, indeed, they would not collect the trash.

No.

Which is part of what that song is about, but mostly it's about

strange, queer life on the streets of New York City in the 70s.

Which is also what I was doing as a baby.

You were in the New York Dolls as a baby?

Yes, they needed a baby.

Every group needs a baby.

Every New York group needs a queer baby.

I'm just trying to remember what it is that CBGB stands for.

Cool babies.

Go bananas.

Yeah.

That was me.

Whatever that is.

That was me.

That was me who gave them the name.

Oh, Gene.

It's so nice to see you.

I wish you were here in this room with me because I feel completely untethered and unanchored.

Yes.

We're getting off.

Paper, Gene.

Paper.

I'm so sorry.

Nick and Michelle, you're here too.

Sorry that I can't ruin one of your favors in a summary judgment, Nick and Michelle, but that's great because we get to talk to each other across the internet wires to you there in Columbus, Ohio, the capital of Ohio, where who brings the case against whom?

Who is the person seeking justice in my court?

I am.

Nick.

And then what is the nature of the justice you seek?

You've got some trash.

Yes.

Too often we have trash that isn't picked up.

Our collection schedule in our neighborhood is confusing and difficult to keep track of for me and all of my neighbors.

I often see bins out at the wrong time.

So I would like to put a sign in our front window.

We have large front windows in our house.

I would like to put a digital sign in there that helps people keep track of trash day and recycling day and yard waste day.

You want to create a digital, essentially you want to create a PowerPoint deck for the neighborhood explaining

when to take the trash out.

Correct.

And the different kinds of trash.

Correct.

Yes.

Which we will get into in minute detail in a moment.

That's a promise.

But Michelle, tell me about your neighborhood there in Columbus, Ohio.

Are you both Ohioans by birth and nature?

We are.

Were you lured there as I have been so many times?

Oh, no.

We are both born and raised.

I'm from more southern Ohio.

He's from northern.

Yeah, we live in a great neighborhood.

He's been there almost 15 years.

More than, more than, yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah, the trash is very confusing.

And I'll be honest, I never take out the trash or recycling.

That is his job.

Before we get into the trash, the minutiae of the trash, which I really want to go through your trash, trust me.

But what does the neighborhood look like?

It is a suburban neighborhood.

It is single-story, you know, two-story family homes, small lots, big lots.

What are we talking about?

So it's what, like a quarter of an acre?

Eighth of an acre.

Eighth of an acre.

Yeah.

We're pretty much in the...

The whole neighborhood.

Oh, yeah.

It's called some, yeah, they have a lot of density there in Columbus.

No, so you're on eighth of an acre lots, modest lots, modest homes.

Cape Cods mostly.

Cape Cods?

In Ohio?

Yeah.

Get your own houses, Ohio.

Michelle, how long have you lived in your home?

So I've been there about seven years.

And

now you cohabitate.

Are you married?

Yes, we are.

How long have you been married?

It'll be six years this year.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And how did you first meet?

Were you fishing for

Ohio River lobsters one day and you saw this handsome person in a boat across the river from you or what?

Close.

Oakie Cupid.

Oh, okay.

Fair enough.

They've been bringing lobster lovers together for a long time.

Nick,

what makes the trash collection so confusing?

You put the trash in the curb, they come and get it right yes yes or or has has columbus already fallen to to a warlord

no not yet civilization already collapsed in columbus and no it's it's getting close but not yet um so the

garbage day recycling day and yard waste day are not necessarily the same day uh and they

shift based on holidays in different ways.

They don't all shift the same way, and they don't all observe the same holidays, which means it's sort of an ever-shifting

collection schedule that is difficult to keep track of.

You know, once

everyone sort of figures it out after a holiday, and you know, there's a couple of weeks of confusion.

And then, you know, especially like in the fall, in the winter, there's a lot of holidays.

So there's a lot of missed collection.

You heard about that one,

Gene Gray, Yard Waste Day.

Ever hear of that one before?

Yes, but also.

Did you have Yard Waste Day at the Chelsea Hotel?

No, listen, it's been

a crazy time adjusting even over the past few years because I've never dealt with like, you know, yard waste or,

you know, this kind of trash pickup where I'm like, oh, look, they're like almost in my house.

That's crazy.

I'm in a house also.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

You're in a, you're in a, you're in a freestanding home in Baltimore, which is different from the way you grew up living in New York City, the way we lived in New York City together, not together, but in the same city at the same time for a while.

It would have been fun to share a Brownstone with you.

Yeah.

Oh, that would be great.

And also, we'd have so much money.

Yeah.

It would have been great to share an old firehouse together, like the Ghostbusters Firehouse.

But the way we throw garbage out in New York City is

almost literally out the window.

It's practically out the window.

I have thrown it out the window before.

So to understand this exotic

trash disposal system,

Nick, you sent in a spreadsheet.

Yes.

I think I may need a visual aid.

Let's take a look at

the evidence.

Exhibit A is what I'm going to look at first.

I'm going to say already, Nick,

it's very difficult between the two of you because I see myself in both of you.

I have also made a spreadsheet about the confusing trash days here in Baltimore.

I do understand.

I am looking at exhibit A, which is the spreadsheet in which Nick tries to explain the trash collection schedule.

Do you have access to this spreadsheet, Gene Cray?

I believe I do.

Let's take a look.

While you're calling it up, I can read here.

There's a note to the spreadsheet.

Refuse collection is confusing.

Tracking.

refuse collection in our neighborhood is a challenge.

Trash, recycling, and yard waste shift around holidays, but not in the same way or the same holidays.

Each cell, Nick writes, represents a single day in 2025.

With holidays and collection days color-coded, light blue means holiday, may affect collection days.

Dark blue means trash.

Dark red means recycling.

And of course, everyone knows light red means yard waste.

And now I'm going to look at this multicolored spreadsheet.

I'm looking at this spreadsheet right now.

Let me tell you,

I shouldn't get that excited when I open something something and it's color-coded, but I got real excited just now.

You love data presentation, right?

I really, I truly, truly do.

In an unhealthy way.

I'm looking here at a map.

Oh, it's a calendar for the entire

year.

Okay.

Well, some, okay.

Starting with January 1st, holiday no trash collection.

January 2nd, January 3rd, nothing's going on, right?

Nick, am I reading this correctly?

Correct.

Correct.

Saturday, January the 4th,

red and light red.

So that's recycling and yard waste naturally.

Then nothing until January 8th when it's trash.

That's a Wednesday.

Then recycling picks up again on Friday the 10th.

Correct.

But we just did recycling the previous Saturday.

And now this Saturday, nothing.

Next Wednesday, trash.

The following Friday, recycling and yard waste.

Okay, but so now we're we're on Fridays for that.

But then trash doesn't happen until the next Thursday because there was a holiday on the 20th, of course, Martin Luther King Day.

And then on the Friday, no yard waste, but definitely recycling.

I see what you mean.

It just goes on and on like this.

It's all over the place.

Yes.

Who's setting this schedule?

The city of Columbus?

Yes.

Yeah.

The city of Columbus.

I think it is a result of

different collective bargaining agreements between trash collection is city employees.

Recycling is outsourced to a private company.

Yeah, and I'm not sure who does the recycling.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure who does the yard waste.

But yeah, so the different different, different, they have different contracts different

that they have negotiated.

I hate this because you hate unions.

No, not at all.

Not at all.

I work for a labor union.

No.

They're ruining this country, right?

No, no, the exact opposite.

Okay.

All right.

So you want to respect the unions, but you just want the neighborhood to know when,

know this schedule as well as you do.

Well,

I gather that the rest of the neighbors have not bothered to make a spreadsheet.

I don't think they have.

No, no.

So what is the result on the streets of Columbus in your neighborhood?

Of this confusion.

Yes.

Yard waste all over the place.

Yeah.

Yard waste is the least of the problems.

it's you know the trash and recycling are out at all times uh another part of the problem is that if you leave your bins on uh the easement you know the the utility easement between the street and the sidewalk and someone parks in front of them they will not pick up the trash these are all terms i know very well

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Michelle, would you agree that your neighborhood is incredibly trashy?

I would agree.

It's trash all over the place, it sounds like.

The way Nick is describing it.

I don't think there's trash all over the place, but I do see

it is very confusing.

And oftentimes, there will be trash bins and recycling bins put out at different times.

So if we're not really sure what's going on, we may have our trash bin out on Wednesday when the neighbors have it out on Thursday.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Michelle, why would you not know what's going on?

Don't you have the spreadsheet?

I do have the spreadsheets.

Nick, didn't you give your wife the spreadsheet?

I did, yeah.

You know what my recommendation is?

Just in case Michelle's not up to date,

print the spreadsheet on a pillowcase

and

put it on her pillow.

And yours too.

But you don't want to put the spreadsheet on a pillowcase, Nick.

You want to put it in your window.

Correct.

And not just the spreadsheet itself, but an animated version of the same.

Yes.

Yes.

Tell me about your plan.

So

I have, it already exists.

I have created a three-slide

presentation that.

You know, one slide is trash.

Next trash day is this day.

Next recycling day is this day.

Next yard waste day is this day.

It goes out, it reads the city's website where they keep, you know, where you can look up your collection schedule.

It retrieves that information every night at midnight and updates itself automatically.

And you've programmed.

So it's not, you're not just making a PowerPoint dick.

Correct.

Which, of course, is the solution to all problems that smart form invented in the past century.

But also it's going out and getting the latest information on its own.

Are you a computer programmer?

I am.

I am.

Well, I do a lot of things in IT, but yes, I do some programming.

This is very industrious of you and very clever of you.

Michelle, what's the problem with this plan?

First of all, I love that he sees a problem and he's trying to fix it and like make our lives easier and everyone else.

And he lives a football as DJ revolves it through.

Yes, like that's just so indicative of who he is as a person, like trying to solve problems and make life easier for everyone.

So, I love that.

The concern that I have is putting a TV

in our window would look tacky, and I don't want to become those people.

Michelle, I just want to tell you that all the whole sentence was just: the concern I have is putting a TV in the window.

That was it.

That was really it.

Yeah, well, it's not a TV, is it, uh, Nick?

It's a monitor, right?

Uh, yeah, it, it would be, uh, I mean, I could use either TV or monitor.

Uh, it would be easy enough to wire up at whatever it needed to be.

But it's a single purpose.

You're not going to be, you're not going to be showing uh episodes of Southside and Bluey on this thing.

No, no.

This is just going to be your PowerPoint trash presentation.

Correct.

Your dot, excuse me, your dynamically updated

trash deck.

Yes.

Facing the neighborhood through your front picture window.

And I believe that we have a photo of the exterior of your house as well that we can take a look at.

I'm going to see if I can find that now.

Okay, so you have kind of a yellow-ish

house.

It's a classic Columbus river trout-style house.

Is that what you called it, Gene?

Ohio trout?

Ohio trout.

Ohio trout-style house with, it looks like three sliding windows facing the street.

Is that right?

That's correct, yeah.

Three separate sliders.

So which one would you put your

trash announcement board in?

I don't have strong feelings about which one.

I would think.

Then what are we even doing here?

Surely there's one that is appropriate.

May I ask if Michelle has

very strong feelings about not which one, or is it just none?

That's a great question.

I guess I just kind of assumed that he would put it in the middle one.

Yeah.

What were you thinking, Nick?

I envisioned it to one of the ones off the side.

Why?

I don't know.

I do not have a good answer to that.

Look, you know,

I'm going to say this.

I am currently neutral in this case.

Obviously, putting a huge TV facing out to your neighbors to tell them when to take their trash out is a big move.

And I could understand why Michelle might have some trepidation surrounding it.

That said, I'm open to it just because it's so wild and I don't have to live there.

But when you start telling me that you don't want to put it, when you've got three basically picture windows, and you don't want to put it in the middle one, but off to the side, that just, that just makes me, that makes me itchy.

That, that that off-center stuff is really making me upset right now, Nick.

That's fair.

It just feels unbalanced to me.

Maybe, maybe we could put another one on the other side.

Yeah, well, you do have three windows.

Why not three?

Well, yeah, well, if you're going to like Wes Anderson it out, then we got to like change the colors.

And then you get, you know, one over there and one over there.

And now we're really starting to do something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick and Michelle.

So Jean is not only our guest bailiff, she's also a musician, a composer, comedian, a storyteller, obviously a writer, but also a visual artist

and someone with a very deep sense of visual aesthetics.

And I think I join Gene in imagining that

what you're proposing right now, simply on aesthetic grounds, Nick, makes me want to throw up.

I don't have a good response to that.

Makes me want to throw up a little.

Especially when you start talking about like putting it off center in one of the other sliders.

Can I ask?

Maybe it's a dumb question.

I don't know, but I feel like we got to explore all the options here.

Do people

like not

get email?

Great question.

Like schedule, is there a way where,

because I, when I first moved to this neighborhood, they were like, oh, there is a community email.

I was like, that sounds great.

And then a week later, I was like, I hate this so much.

Count me out.

Take me off the list.

But would there be, like, is there a way to

just have it a scheduled email that's sent out to everyone every day?

And then that's just the notice?

Yeah, Nick.

I mean, we've established that there's still civilization in Ohio.

It's not like Lord Humongus Columbus has outlawed email.

Why not send up an auto-send to all of your neighbors?

One that would require collecting email addresses.

I think the other problem is, you know, we have Nick.

Nick, you did those,

to have you seen the spreadsheet.

Yes.

Okay.

I feel like, also,

I think it might make it, so people would have to come by your house to be able to get this information.

And if there are people who are not able to do that for whatever reason, that, I mean, the trash might already be difficult for them.

Yeah, you're literally not meeting people where they live.

You're counting on them driving by your house

and to get the information that you want them to have.

Yeah.

Our house is already a bit of a hub in that we have a little free pantry box in our front yard.

So there's already a fair amount.

Yeah, there's already a fair amount of traffic coming to our house.

Michelle, explain the concept of the little free pantry for those listening at home who may not understand it.

Yeah, I think people are more familiar with little free library.

It's the same premise.

We have that here.

Yeah, it's the same exact thing.

It's just a pantry for non-perishable goods.

So it's a take what you need, leave what you can type of deal.

Right.

The little free libraries are a way, they're very popular.

In Parkslope, Brooklyn, that's where we take our trash books and throw them away.

I'm about to take all the books out of this little free library that's right like 60 feet away and just only put my book in there.

Just no other books but my book.

Just fill it up.

Only copies of In My Remaining Years by.

What if there were a little newsletter they could pick up with

that information that was that lived inside of the little pantry?

That's that's not the worst idea.

Um, I think the advantage of this,

yeah.

Nick is like, that's not the worst idea, but why would I do it when I already had the worst idea?

Sorry, that's not the worst idea.

I can't go through with that.

I'm not saying that that's the worst idea.

I'm just

having some fun.

I'm still neutral.

I still, I'm still unbiased on this.

I think the advantage of the digital sign is that it is,

it is very passive for people to absorb the information.

Anyone passing by quickly can get the information.

You know, in tech, they call it reducing friction, right?

Like it's, it is an easy way for people to get the information without having to take any action, without having to do any steps.

May I offer this?

May I offer this?

Sometimes

And I've learned this a lot over the past

year.

Sometimes the things that we think that we're making easier for other people are just kind of things that are easy for us to deal with.

And it might not serve everyone the same way.

Yeah, you know, that's it.

I think that Gene has raised an interesting point, Nick, that I would like to investigate with you.

When Gene suggested the very

civilized and I honestly simple solution of creating an email to update your neighbors and even an automated email to update your neighbors to remind them.

Your first thought was, well, that would involve collecting email addresses, which I think

I understand your apprehension with this idea, because I think that would involve talking to your neighbors, right?

Like going to your neighbors and being like, I would like your email address so I could send you

literal junk mail.

But

if those neighbors are already coming by the pantry, what say you leave a pen

and a paper for them to write their emails down?

No contact.

I think that Nick is hoping that people are going to come for the extra cans of cream corn and they're going to stay to watch the

show.

To watch the screen, yeah, the show.

I think that's a good idea.

I think another part of the problem is

not everyone in our neighborhood is, you know,

we have people of all different ages, all different education levels.

Not every, you know, I wouldn't, I'm sure there are people in our neighborhood who don't even have an email

or never check their email.

You know, the city already has, you can subscribe to emails from the city.

People obviously don't do it.

You can check the app on your phone.

You know, people don't do it.

I think it is, it is a matter of access in that.

There are, for people who are willing to take that proactive step, there are already ways to do it.

So, this is just sort of another level of

providing access to the information to people who may not have access to it in another way.

Michelle, Nick really got me there.

I was like, I was about to blame Nick for being, for being shy or too, too scared to talk to your neighbors.

And he comes back at me and was like, not everyone has an email address.

And I'm like, oh, right.

Some people live in a tech desert.

There's an access issue.

Tell me about your neighbors, Michelle.

How do you think they would respond to your putting a screen in one of your sliding glass door windows telling them when to take their trash out?

Honestly, I'm not sure how they would react.

When we first started talking about this, I had suggested that as well, like maybe going door to door or sending like a letter to each house.

Because My thought is, yeah, are we trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

So I do wonder if we could maybe go to every house because we are very like both of us are social people.

We love talking to people, meeting new people.

So yeah, could we go to people and see if this is a problem?

Because maybe we're the only ones with the problem.

I don't think that's the case, but it could be.

But Nick,

you tried to convey that your neighborhood is full of misplaced trash cans all the time, right?

There is a problem.

I think full all the time is

a bit of an overstatement.

But I mean, I see see bins out at all times.

You know, I often see, you know, I see people put the bin out for the day that collection day was last week.

And, you know, I happen to know it's the wrong day.

So, I mean, I know it's a problem.

And when you just silently sees, you don't say to those people, hey, neighbors.

No.

How do you feel?

How do you feel when you see those wrong bins?

I mean, I understand.

I do it all the time too.

I mean, I have a difficult time keeping track of it.

You've got the spreadsheet.

I've got the spreadsheet, right?

Michelle, you don't seem convinced that there really is a problem, though.

Do you think that he's invented this problem in order to have a problem to solve?

No, I mean, I do think that there is a problem.

I don't know that other people think it's as big of a problem as maybe he does.

Right.

And

what do you think the neighbors would say about you guys if you had a big screen on, I guess, 24 hours a day,

rotating information about when to throw out your yard waste, when to throw out your recycling, when to throw out your regular trash, or a do-nothing day.

You know, it could go one of two ways.

I think that either we're weirdos and,

or, you know, there have been problems in the past that we, that's why the little free pantry is there.

We saw a need and so we did what we could to fulfill that need.

So it's a fairly neighborly community, right?

Yeah, I think so.

Do you get the sense that it's like people don't, if you were to go door to door, and I know that that's a miserable feeling to do, whether you're, you know, sometimes one has to do it to say hello to your neighbors to get to know them or to help them make a plan to vote, for example.

It's a very, very noble thing to do to go meet your neighbors, but it's scary.

I get that.

Do you think if you went door to door,

Let's say not collecting email addresses, because you really,

you really eviscerated me with your people don't have internet comeback that was good you did a good job there but if you went door to door with a handout or a piece of a flyer or a piece of paper and talked to your neighbors about i know this is very confusing maybe this will help do you think they'd be receptive

uh potentially yeah do you have any evidence that your neighbors share your concern and confusion have you talked to them about this or is this just something you're observing because cans are out when they shouldn't be uh i mean the guy across the street is constantly asking me if I know when the next collection day is.

Right.

He's like, hey, Nick, I'm your across-the-street neighbor.

I'm constantly confused.

Would you put a screen up in your house that will shine into my bedroom 24 hours a day?

Michelle, you said that you have a concern that you would be

pegged as the weird house in the neighborhood if you had a TV announcing trash collection details

shining out into the street 24 hours a day.

And I'm going to tell you, that is what would happen.

You would be the weird house.

Yeah.

Why is that a concern for you?

You know, I don't know that, like, it is a concern because I feel like we shouldn't be those weirdos.

But I guess when I really think about it, like, we are weird people.

So

I guess I don't know why that is such a concern for me.

Do you think that the neighbors would resent this sign?

What do you think their reaction would be if I were to order in Nick's favor?

Yeah, resenting, not so much.

I,

I mean, I think that they would probably just kind of giggle.

They would kind of giggle.

Yeah.

Do you think it would actually change behavior?

I mean, my gut says no, but I mean, maybe it could be a powerful tool to help people get on the same track.

I'll tell you, I'll make the argument for you that you won't make for yourself.

It's not going to help.

You sent in a draft of your deck i believe yes and i'm going to try to take a look at that now so we can see what you have in mind

so there are three slides yes

that you that are part of this deck yes

and the slides will be chosen

based on your bot going to this town hall yeah getting the information bringing it back so it says next recycling collection Friday, March 14th.

And this is just plain white on black lettering.

Next yard waste collection Friday, March 28th, et cetera, et cetera.

So it's very, very, for someone who likes data visualization, this is a pretty rudimentary design, I may say, Nick.

Yes, it is.

My primary concern was legibility from the street.

You know, I was trying to make it very simple and easy to read the information.

And then it goes on to say, so it says next yard waste collection, March 28th, next recycling.

And then the sign, the next slide is no independent thought.

The next slide is obey.

The next slide is consume.

The next slide is they live, we sleep.

And Nick, may I also point out that I felt like you were saying that the sign would say today is trash day or today is yard waste day.

But now you're saying next week is this day, or the next yard waste day is this way.

Now you're asking people to plan ahead.

You think they're going to be walking by getting their cream spinach and then with their phylofaxes to write this down in?

It would say,

for example, if the collection day were tomorrow, the slide would update to say the next trash collection is tomorrow or trash collection is today.

So it would update to...

in real time to when the next what you know to say today or tomorrow you also have a nice picture here exhibit d of your your little free pantry.

Leave what you can, take what you need.

You got a can of pinto beans in there, can of Noor

seasoned rice, chicken rice.

Looks like you have some towels in there.

That's very nice.

That's very handy.

All right.

I think if I were to rule in your favor, Michelle, what would you have me rule?

Nothing, right?

Nothing in the window.

Yeah.

Nick, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

Put a TV in the window?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I think the ideal ruling is

something

that

makes us both happy.

I disagree with you.

Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't want to just put the sign in the window against Michelle's

wishes, right?

I mean, I don't, you know, I don't want, I mean, obviously, I would like to be able to put the sign up,

but yeah, I mean, I think the ideal ruling is something that makes us both happy.

And I don't know what that is.

Well, my job is to make one of you happy and the other one is sad.

Sometimes I fail at that job and I do end up making both people happy.

But I want to assure you and the audience, that is not ever my intention.

It's very true.

Michelle, it says here that you're concerned about being those people in the neighborhood.

Yeah.

Why is that upsetting to you?

Do you feel like you're already on the cusp of being those people?

And what does it mean to you being those people?

That's a great question.

Thank you.

It was written down for me.

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I guess I don't really care that much.

Um, because

I don't want to look tacky.

I think it would be unbecoming.

I

don't like the aesthetic of it.

I,

yeah, I just think it would look pretty silly to have a TV monitor in the front room.

Are you more concerned about what your neighbors will think if they're walking by your monitor window or how you're going to feel when you come home and there's a big sign, a big illuminated sign in your window saying trash day today.

It's definitely a matter of what other people would think for sure.

Really?

You feel that that would look good?

No.

You would look at that going like, that looks terrible, but at least Nick is happy, so I'm happy.

I mean, if it were just us two, absolutely.

But I worry more about what the neighbors would think, what that would say about us.

What do you think it would say about it?

What would the sign saying, take your yard waste out today, really be saying to the neighbors?

Yeah, that's where we come back to like, it is kind of just right up our alley in terms of like seeing a problem and giving a solution.

So

we're not sure.

Okay.

I think I heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to take my goat on a rope and go for a stroll as I think about this.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

All right.

Michelle, Nick, I'm going to ask you, Michelle, how are you feeling right now?

How do you think this is going?

I'm feeling really good.

I feel like you guys are both kind of on my side and at least understand where I'm coming from.

Okay, Nick, how are you feeling?

I think not as confident as Michelle, but I, you know, also think the judge has an affinity for weirdness.

So I think that's going in my favor.

Well, I know the judge, John Hodgman, is going to come in and say something that I would be like, oh, that's why we're friends.

Absolutely.

And I 100% agree.

And we wouldn't have worded it the same way, but absolutely.

But before he does, I want to tell you both

that

it takes a lot to be really self-aware and environmentally aware, and especially of your neighbors and caring and willing to see

solutions and do something about them to contribute to your community betterment.

And one of the ways we can best do that for all of us

is by continuing to not care how things look

as long as they make life better for all of us.

We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

While we're taking a break from this case, I just want to say once again that we are so happy to be joined by Jean Gray.

Jean has been a friend of the show and mine for many years, and she is a friend of yours.

And that is why my plug for the week is: go and get Jean Gray's book in my remaining years and make sure to follow Jean wherever you can.

On Instagram, you have a sub stack too, right, Gene?

I do.

My sub stack is called Stacked Passions.

And you can find me over on my Instagram at Gene Igregio.

That's two N's.

And then you'll work it out.

Just type in Gene Gray on Instagram in your Googles and you'll find me instantly and I'll be over there.

And you can ask me questions.

You can ask me about the book.

You can see what I'm doing about the book.

You can get the book and then tell me you got the book.

And Gene, you read your own audiobook.

Isn't that true?

I did read my own audiobook.

I narrated that mother

and I made the music.

That mother mother.

That mother mother.

I made the music and it's got amazing sound design.

It was

a real big passion project.

And I'm not going to say that I loved it more than writing the book, but I may.

I may.

I may.

I may.

I need to tell everybody that the moment that I met Gene Gray, my life got better and it has only gotten better more and more the more time I spend with her.

I've only gotten smarter, wiser, have I know myself better, and I'm very grateful to know Jean better from reading this incredible story about her growing up at the Chelsea Hotel in New York,

her life of artistry throughout her many, many careers in many different ways, and the wisdom that she brings to the page is astonishing.

Please do what you need to do right now.

Do not hesitate.

Pause the podcast.

I mean it.

Go to where you get your books and get in my remaining years in hardcover, electronic format, audio book, or all three.

And by the way, Gene, I'm going to just be a little bit of a selfish jerk and say, I also have a substack, which is at hodgman.substack.com.

And once a couple of times a month, I read chapters from Moby Dick to you.

And that's about what I do over there.

That's fantastic.

Among other things that I might share.

Yeah.

I've never read Moby Dick before, and I read it out loud in a terrible main accent.

So if that's something you're interested in, hodcoom.substack.com.

Hell yeah.

Genie, your sub stack is called Stack Passions.

Stack Passions.

And you can get it by going to Substack and searching for Jean Gray, as well as on Instagram at Genie Gregio.

Just get to know Jean.

That's my one request.

Get to know Gene.

You really should.

It's going to be so worth it.

It's going to be so much more than you thought it was going to be.

I am invaluable to the community of the world.

And hey, I've got one more thing to plug.

If you're in Chicago or can get there on April 11th, you know our friend Jesse Thorne and his best friend Jordan Morris have been recording this incredible comedy podcast for so long.

Jordan, Jesse, go.

If you don't know, now is the time to go and discover it for the first time.

If you do know, well, get yourself there.

It's April 11th at Sleeping Village in Chicago with Peter Sagal and Sam Regal.

Sam Regal, of course, is from the huge D ⁇ D podcast Critical Role, also known for their Amazon TV series.

And Peter Sagal, of course, is your friend from the radio.

Wait, wait, don't tell me.

Don't wait.

Just go there, April 11th.

Jordan Jesse go at Sleeping Village in Chicago.

Get your tickets now at maximumfund.org slash events.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

You may be seated.

So I'm going to say some words, and they might not be the same words that Jean might have said, but

I think that the words that she did say uh exemplify why i am very lucky to call her my friend

and the words that i will say

that i hope please her just as much is

go out and buy jean's book it's called in my remaining years it's available in bookstores now case closed but i will also say this and echo what i think gene both said beautifully and has

helped reinforce me to understand over the years, which is weird is

wonderful.

Weird is great.

And you guys know this.

I mean, you both know.

I don't think you're particularly weird.

And I'll also say this, which is something that I've learned over the years and in many ways with help from Jean and her wonderful example, which is that being weird is wonderful.

Being weird and being different.

or I should at least say expressing yourself without fear of how you seem, even to your neighbors, As long as your goat on your rope is not eating their property, for example, but is only enhancing and expressing your own inner self.

Being weird is really wonderful.

And I remember when I was a little kid, as an only child, I was default weird, and I was coming to understand that.

And I said to my mom, I'm weird.

And my mom understandably got a little concerned about my self-esteem.

She's like, don't say that you're weird.

And

in a lifetime of perfect parenting, that was maybe my mom's one misstep because I got in my head about it for a minute.

And it took me a little while to realize, no, being weird is great

because

we all have a profound inner life

and

it hurts us to hide it in order to quote unquote fit in.

And we all are in our own ways weird.

And expressing that weirdness and showing it to the world helps other people embrace their own difference in strangeness and creativity and make them feel like, yeah, I deserve to have a goat on a rope too.

Weird culture in particular saves lives.

You know, we started with the New York Dolls, which were

a gender-fluid rock band in the 70s that wasn't glam rock like on that international stage where everyone was an alien from another planet, which isn't to put down David Bowie in any way, like also an incredible role model for weirdness, but they were like weird from the streets of New York City.

You know, punk rock in the 70s, pretty, pretty, pretty mask, pretty much, you know, pretty masculine.

So for the New York dolls to come out there and wear makeup and wear and wear queer-coated clothing and sing songs about, I mean, think of the lives that they saved, people who heard those songs and saw themselves reflected there.

I think about

our friend Ken Reed with the incredible podcast TV Guidance Counselor talking about the radio station that he was able to pick up back before there was internet when he was growing up in Massachusetts, picking up a radio station.

from across the border, I think in Rhode Island, that was playing the weirdest punk rock songs.

And it was a lifeline for him to know that he wasn't alone in this world.

Being weird is really wonderful.

And I think for the most part, neighbors, good neighbors, really appreciate the

idiosyncrasies of their other neighbors.

You're not weird to put out a little free,

a little free pantry.

That's just gracious, good, good neighborliness, you know.

But expressing yourself in the way that makes you feel good and helpful to your neighbors, even if it marks you as a little bit weird,

that's a good impulse, not a bad impulse, and not one that you should hide.

And I don't really get the sense, Michelle, that you want to.

Like, I don't think you want to live your life in perfect conformity there in Ohio.

That's not what you're after.

What the problem, Michelle, is, and I think you've identified it, and let me help you put a real pin in it.

This idea is ugly.

It's not weird.

It's janky.

It's not tacky.

It's jacky.

So, tacky is a word that is used to enforce social conformity a lot of the time.

And I think that I understand that you couldn't quite put your finger on what you didn't like about this.

So I'm offering this to you.

This may be your experience, or it may not be, or your inner, your inner judgment.

But I'm telling you what my inner and now outer judgment is.

It's janky.

The idea of putting a TV screen that's, by the way, 32 inches too small into a sliding glass door facing out all the time.

And I love that you love data visualization,

but this particular PowerPoint deck is rudimentary to the point of feeling like a cry for help.

You can't use Impact Font in 2025.

What are we doing?

What are we doing?

And putting it off center in your home only triples the jank.

Like it's just, it just, no one would be able to take in the message because they would be averting their eyes.

The problem in the neighborhood is trash.

Don't add more trash to the neighborhood.

Now, there are many other ways that you could get this information out.

And it might be very helpful for your neighbors to do it.

You could design, as we say, a nice flyer, but maybe that would also be putting trash into the neighborhood.

Because who knows, like people just throw that away or whatever.

When it seems to me that, you know, you already have

a community meeting place in your world, which is this little free lending pantry where people can borrow a can of green beans and eat free and then return the can.

I don't know exactly how it works, but yeah.

Don't return the can.

But, you know, if your brother can make a little free lending pantry out of scraps from his goat yard, surely between the three of you, Michelle, your brother, Michelle, and Nick,

can create

a sign inside the pantry or on top of the pantry.

Something that looks good.

Now, for the life of me, I do not understand why you would not get an old-fashioned train station clicky sign that updates the information by going, clicky, clicky,

click click, click click, click.

That's something that people want to look at.

Now, would it possibly be vandalized or destroyed by weather or human mischief?

Maybe.

But I do think that it would be visually more appealing to either design a really, like I,

I'm thinking a purpose-specific electronic sign.

Kind of like what you already rejected, Michelle, which is the that scrolling letters sign that you see in bodegas.

That's not quite what you want.

There are lots and lots of versions, right?

And I know because I've been gulled into buying them off of Instagram already, but there are all kinds of like single-purpose digital signs that you can buy that are actually pretty attractive looking in and of themselves and can display information in an interesting way.

Look it up.

You can find lots of different versions of this.

Some of them actually go clickety, clickety, clickety, clickety.

Jonathan Colton has one in his

living room.

I don't know if it would stand up to rain very well, but it's like it is an analog,

literal tiled letters roll over to form words.

That I would love to see when I'm picking up some free pantry items.

But there are also digital ones, too, that could, for example,

use your

program

and and update the information about when trash is to be collected dynamically.

And it could also display other information that you feel the neighborhood needs to know.

That's a kind of aesthetically pleasing weirdness that I could get behind.

But having a monitor faced outside your window that's on 24-7 showing, frankly, this trash deck that you put together, Nick, I apologize.

You're an idea man, but the execution leaves something to be.

Fair.

You know, maybe you and Michelle can work together to find someone and to find a technology that can put that information where it belongs in the community meeting place that you've already established,

where people are coming to already get stuff and commune with you.

And maybe that'll make a difference in your neighborhood.

I also think you can just design an, I mean, I know that not everyone in your neighborhoods has the same level of technology you do, and I get it, but this also seems perfect for like an, if not an email chain, an app that you can just give to your neighbors for free that'll just tell them on their phones or whatever what what day of the week they got to get their trash out there

but if you're gonna be weird i guess the message is be as good looking as a man with a goat on a rope in baltimore because you can just you don't even need just the picture it conjures alone it's like yeah that's the weird we want

not not a janky screen and a sliding door so i find in nick's favor but with the obvious um caveats that I've laid down, it's got to look good and it's got to look especially good to Michelle.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Oh, I love

trash.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How do you guys feel about the decision, Nick?

I'm going to ask you first.

Yeah, I feel good about that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that the charge that it is was ugly is totally fair.

Yeah, I sort of viewed it as a prototype, but

I think the judge's solution is much better to put it,

somehow put it with the pantry box.

Makes sense.

Yeah, I feel good about it.

It's fantastic.

Michelle, how are you feeling?

Yeah, I feel good about it too.

I think that

like neither one of us ever thought about putting something on the free pantry box.

So I think that was a really good idea and something that we can kind of figure out together.

Michelle Michelle and Nick, it was an absolute pleasure to meet you both.

And congratulations for everything you're doing for your community.

Um, thanks for being on Judge John Hodgman and for both winning and your community winning.

All right, that's another case in the books.

Another case in the books.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Redditor underscore Magpie underscore for naming this week's week's episode Time and Rubbishment.

You did that.

Join the conversation over at the Maximum Fun subreddit over at reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun.

We'll be asking for title suggestions there too, so keep an eye out for those.

Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

We are also on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

Follow and subscribe to see our episodes and video-only content, pod.

Oh, and thank you, Emily in Vermont.

That's a listener, I presume in Vermont, or Emily's a liar.

Emily in Vermont listens over on Apple Podcasts and left some very kind words and not one, not two, not three, not four, but five stars as a rating for us at Apple Podcasts.

Emily wrote just a few weeks ago, always a joy, five stars.

By listening to this podcast, I always learn new things and laugh out loud.

What more could one want?

Question mark.

Also, a hot dog is not a sandwich.

If you're listening to, thank you very much, by the way, Emily in Vermont.

And if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts and you're someone other than Emily in Vermont, why don't you go and leave a few words of how you feel, maybe a rating, maybe five stars, if that's how you feel about it?

If we've earned it, we'd be so grateful.

You can do the same over on Pocket Casts.

And you can also help the show by leaving a comment on Spotify,

as well as right down below on this episode over on YouTube at Judge John Hodgman.

Pod is our YouTube channel.

All of these things, as well as simply talking to a friend in person about the podcast that you love and say, hey, go listen to Judge John Hodgman, really, really helps people discover the show.

So thank you for that.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by Jesse Thorne and me, John Hodgman.

This episode was engineered by Steve Musa and Dan Lovelace at the Sycamore in Plain City, Ohio.

And by the way, Plain City, I think you're pretty great.

You're not just Plain.

Our social media manager is Dan Telfer.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video producer is Daniel Speer.

Our producer, as always, is Jennifer Marmer.

And I'm so happy to have been joined by our guest bailiff, Jean Gray.

Yeah.

This week.

Make sure you please, please, please go and order her book right now in my remaining years by Gene Gray.

Jean, do we have some Swift Justice in the meantime?

Let's get to the Swift Justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Cinemaker.

Okay.

Cinemaker.

Cinemaker?

Cinemaker?

This was spelled C-I-N-E-M-K-R.

Yes, I just saw this guy on TikTok who pronounced

Fettuccine Alfredo Fatuxine.

So I'm thinking that right now.

Wow.

Let's just, I just want want to say that the

response on the other side of the window from Jennifer Marmor, Daniel Spear, and Dan Telfer

was quite audible.

That was quite audible.

People, that he's, huh?

Fatuxiny?

Fatuxine.

Fatuxine.

And he kept saying it so many times.

Fatux.

He was like, what?

What's the problem?

What are you talking about?

Fatuxine.

No, Fatuxine sounds like a city in Ohio.

Fatuxine does not sound like a pasta.

Okay, but this is from Cinemaker.

This is from Cinemaker on the Maximum Fun, Subreddit.

Cinemaker says, when I'm driving, I like to change lanes to keep my speed constant.

This also saves fuel and wear on the brakes.

My wife prefers I stay in one lane.

Note, driving is a big part of my job, so I consider myself a professional.

This is one of those things

where there's so much missing information.

I don't think so.

I think all the information is there.

Well, yeah, I mean, the subtext is pretty super texty.

Which is that Cinemaker probably changes lanes too much.

What do you think, Gene?

I got to take a sip of water.

I think he needs to stay in his lane.

I mean, yes.

I was already suspicious, I must say, Sinemaker,

of your driving habits

when you're like, my wife doesn't like the way I drive.

I love to shift lanes all the time.

And then you started using excuses like it prevents wear and tear on the brakes, which I guess it does.

But when you're like, also, I'm kind of a professional driver.

It's like that did it for me.

Yeah, yeah.

That's how we know you're moving around too much out there.

Look, here's the rule.

Here's the rule for driving.

These are the rules.

Stay away from everybody.

The best lane to be in is the one where you are furthest away from all the other cars.

Do you know how I achieve that?

Never driving.

That's right.

You should not be changing lanes just to change lanes or to maintain, you know.

You should be staying away from everybody.

You should be constantly making sure that no one is coming up, that that no one is behind you wanting to pass you.

You should not be parking in the left lane.

You should be concerned about everyone who's on the road, not just your desire to maintain your brake pad integrity.

And you should also be concerned about everyone who is in your car.

And if the person that you claim to love the most is made uncomfortable by your driving,

Even if she's not a professional,

you should make sure that she feels, or anyone passenger in your car, feels safe and cared for in your car.

They are more important than your gas mileage or your brakes.

As of this episode's release, we are one day past April Fool's Day.

I'm sure we had a great time yesterday, right, Gene, reading all those pranks online?

I fooled everybody.

We're looking for disputes surrounding April Fool's Day.

Any disputes about pranks gone wrong, jokes, or fools in your life?

We want to hear them.

Are you a a practical joker and no one appreciates your efforts?

Because everyone hates practical jokes.

They're practically good for nothing.

Does your weird parent like to joke during?

Although I do like the impractical jokers, they're pretty funny.

But no, making people uncomfortable in public is never good.

So I take it back.

But still, I'll go on your cruise and practical jokers.

Bring me along.

Are you trying to get your partner to watch your favorite comedy and they just don't get it?

Fools and jokes and jokers

and disputes about the Joker movies, perhaps.

Justice and clowns.

There we go.

Justice and clowns.

Send all your disputes about jokes and fools and pranks and so forth to maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho.

And what if you have a dispute that's not about those things?

Well, we want to hear that one too.

We need to hear all of your disputes, no matter how big, no matter how small, even no matter how medium, send them to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

Submit your cases.

we need your beefs the whole podcast runs on beef bailiff guest bailiff gene gray thank you so much for being here it was a great time have a wonderful time by the time that this is released you'll be out in the world touring your book in my remaining years yes uh by gene gray that's spelled g-r-a-e gene is spelled j-e-a-n in my remaining years if you want to see how that's spelled by go just check out the book right away you could just do that and as we mentioned before, people can go find out where you're touring by going where, Gene.

You can usually go to my Instagram.

You can follow me right there.

I'm very active.

Sometimes if you join

my little channel, I also give you little sneak peeks and little secrets to where I might be ahead of everyone else.

My sub stack is going to be nice and up and running because I have been tearing through being a first new author and haven't had any time.

It's rough.

It's rough.

A lot of work bringing a book out.

And besides the book, I want you guys to know that there is also an audio book, which I narrated myself and did the original music for.

And it's incredibly immersive.

It's a whole other experience.

So if you're not really a reading book person or you want to listen along while you're reading the book,

it's fantastic.

I had a great time recording it.

One of my favorite things I've ever done.

Gene, one of my favorite things that I've ever done was meeting you for the first time and every time I've met you thereafter, it is such a delight to spend time with you virtually, and I hope in person soon.

Please, everybody, go and get in my remaining years and follow Gene wherever she might lead you.

You will be glad to go on this journey with her.

Other than that, Judge John Hodgman returns next time, and we will see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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