The Pegacorn Brief Live in Pittsburgh

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I am Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

With me is Judge John Hodgman, and this week's episode was recorded live on stage in the breathtakingly beautiful city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Truly, what a beautiful American city is the town that Ketchup built and steel

and French fries on sandwiches.

And the three.

Yeah.

Pittsburgh.

It was our podcast's first time in Pittsburgh, and

we had a wonderful time.

It did not disappoint, nor did that incredible audience

with wild cases from start to finish.

In this episode, we talk about unicorns, sun tea, and gravy on sandwiches.

Make sure to stay tuned through the end of the episode for a special update having to do with this gravy sandwich combo at Pittsburgh's favorite, Eden Park.

There was so much we need justice energy built up inside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, like it erupted on stage.

It's great, yeah.

Okay, let's go to the stage at the City Winery in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

People of Pittsburgh, you asked us for live justice, and we are here to deliver it.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's bring out our first case.

Please welcome to the stage Lee and Jen.

Lee and Jen met when Lee happened to be motorcycling in Jen's town.

Jen likes to put gravy on sandwiches and eat them with a fork and knife.

When she does this, Lee says she's no longer eating a sandwich.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Lee and Jen.

I guess we're not ready.

You may be seated.

What is your relationship to one another, if I may ask?

We are married.

You are married.

And you met riding a motorcycle through town, and then you just grabbed Jen and

made off for the hills?

Isn't that how it's done?

How did that happen?

That's an interesting meet, cute.

I found myself single.

back in the pandemic era, right at the beginning.

And

I got on this app called Happen.

I'd never heard of it, but

it works.

H-A-P-P-N.

We're not advertising the app.

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry for the buzz market.

So, what it does is it matches you with people in your area.

And I just, I was riding my motorcycle a lot, and I happened to be in that area a few times.

And suddenly it matched me.

You just got a ping on your phone.

I got a pen saying the love of your life is coming through.

Pretty much.

A real rebel.

Yeah.

Okay.

And we pretty much knew we were getting married after about a week.

So wonderful.

I think it's incredible that they have an app to identify that someone is there.

Creepy.

What would we do without smartphones?

So, Lee,

you love Jen, right?

Yeah.

How long have you been married at this point?

February 2021.

22.

22.

All right.

Ask her.

So far, so goodly.

What problem could you possibly have with gravy on sandwiches?

Okay, that's not it at all.

My problem isn't with gravy.

Whoa.

Slow your roll, dear doctor.

Okay, Marlon Brando and the wild ones, tell me.

So

I'm a pet ann.

I admit it.

And

it's Pittsburghers, by the way.

What did I say?

Pittsburghians.

Oh, well, shut up.

So I'm a pet ant.

Jensers?

So what...

You notice I did not say Jinzers.

I'm not walking into that trap again.

You mean Ginzers?

Whoa, wow.

Deep cuts.

Deep cuts.

The deep cuts cut deep today on stage.

The pet ant knows.

Sorry.

All right.

So what gender?

I'm a petant.

It's not often that a guy will admit to that as proudly as you do.

I'll admit to anything.

Do you have that tattooed in Gothic script across your belly?

No, but I like the idea.

Me too.

So what Jen does is she will take a hot sandwich consisting of a piece of bread,

a piece,

a bunch of maybe pulled pork or turkey or whatever it is.

Sandwich filling.

Sandwich filling.

Right.

If you will.

And a piece of bread on top.

And then slather it in gravy of some kind.

Sounds delicious.

It does.

Sounds awesome.

It's great.

And that's still technically a sandwich.

You could pick that up and eat it.

Now, when she cuts open the face of that sandwich, it is now an open-faced sandwich.

When she uses a knife and fork.

Correct.

Much like the Catholic miracle of transubstantiation.

Yes.

It is no longer a sandwich.

It is the holy body of open face.

Yes, it has been transformed.

I see.

The miracle of the fish, the loaves, and the gravy.

Jen, I believe you sent in some evidence, a picture of one of your gravy-covered sandwiches.

Oh, he sent in the.

Oh, I apologize.

Yeah.

But maybe you'll tell us about it if we see it now.

Jesse Thorne, may we see the first?

Okay.

Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith.

Here is

a sandwich covered in gravy,

beautifully plated, insofar as it's on a plate.

You can thank Eaton Park.

It was Eaton Park.

What's that?

As a local, like, app

big boy.

Uh-oh.

We just stepped on some sort of sandwich landline.

We'll save that dispute for later, I think.

It's your four o'clock retiree liver and onions type of place okay but why was there that reaction to it in the crowd

because you didn't know what it was and you know what oh that was that me yeah

oh I'm sorry shut up

I don't live here

to paraphrase Andy Kaufman I'm from New York

I don't know all your things

You're going to have to give us a list of Pittsburgh gravy facts later.

Let's stick stick with the facts.

And you eat this.

Tell us about your sandwich here.

This is a hot roast beef sandwich.

Seems delicious.

A sandwich.

It's got the bread on the bottom, the meat in the middle, bread on top, and it's just covered in gravy.

Yeah, but where are the french fries in that sandwich?

I don't like french fries on my sandwich.

I'm getting the feeling here that

I'm the villain of this show.

And I'll take that heat.

I can be the heel that Pittsburgh deserves.

Please go on.

So I usually get mashed potatoes with it.

Sure.

Covered in gravy.

You don't put the mashed potatoes on top of the sandwich, do you?

No.

You put them inside the sandwich.

I eat them on the side.

On the side.

Okay.

Well, this looks delicious.

Hot roast beef sandwich with gravy.

And now you're going to eat it with a knife and fork.

Yeah, I cut it up.

Next slide, please.

There you go.

You cut it right up.

Yeah.

Because if I would eat it

as a sandwich, and I have a propensity to spill stuff on me all the time,

I don't want gravy all over me.

No, look, we agree.

I don't know why you're listening to this guy.

That's what I've been saying.

Saying that, you know, you could hypothetically still pick it up with your hands if you want it to be a sandwich.

Gonna get gravy all.

You're saying it's the knife and fork that makes it not a sandwich, that makes it an open-face sandwich, even though, sir, clearly the gravy face is closed.

Is it not?

Well, that looks like it's had cosmetic surgery to me, and the face has been opened up.

Lee, you say you're a pet aunt about sandwiches.

About a lot of things.

Okay, well, let's just focus on this right now.

Okay.

Lee, is a hot dog a sandwich?

It's a taco.

Boo.

Boo.

Yeah, where were you, my Pittsburgh booers?

Simple misunderstandings.

You're like, oh, kill him.

This guy's out here calling a hot dog a to.

And you're like, you know, he makes a good point.

I dismantle the hot dog as a taco thing on television, sir, on the Colbert, on Colbert's show.

A hot dog is a daily show.

That's cultural appropriation.

That's true.

Is a hot dog a sandwich?

Yes or no?

Jen, same question.

Hot dog a sandwich?

If the hot dog bun is not connected on the one end, it could be a sandwich.

Otherwise,

no.

It's a hot dog.

I'll accept that because I like you.

What is so important about sandwich-ness to you that you have to

criticize the love of your life while she's just trying to enjoy a hot roast beef sandwich, a delicious hot roast beef sandwich at Eaton

Park, the place that I know so well, one of our favorite places that we love to go to.

It's the place for smiles.

A woman in the front row literally just did this.

Park.

Why do you care?

I don't.

Why are we here?

We were out having a drink on the back patio, and somehow this came up, and

I said, that's not an open-faced sandwich.

I mean, that's now an open-faced sandwich after you've mangled it.

And so we just went back and forth, and we were coming here.

So I said, well, let's ask the honorable Judge John Hodgman.

Jen, Lee admits that he's a pedant

why are you married to him

because he is a great husband and father and stepfather that's nice

you lost your jewelry apparently

what fell down there your keys bracelet

I thought your tears were made of black chains

What else is he pedantic about?

Is there anything I can rule against him besides this?

My grammar.

He has to correct me all the time when I say things that he doesn't like.

Is there something you want to criticize right now, Lee?

I don't know if it's a criticism.

It's more that I think it's adorable.

When she says, all's I know.

Yeah.

Dot, dot, dot.

All's I know, that's not even a grammar issue.

That's just a regional dialect thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's adorable.

Or when she says the majority of something, which is adorable, it's like West Virginian or something.

I love it on Super Senate.

Well, how do you

feel when Lee criticizes you?

John, this isn't a serious situation like when I refer to me and Jordan, my co-host, Jordan, Jesse Go.

Yeah, well, that was correct.

You just break out into horrible, like, yeah, tears because I did say Jordan and I.

I cry black chains, yeah.

Jen, so when

Lee is being pedantic and criticizing

the way you say words, the way you eat sandwiches, whether it is at everybody's favorite restaurant, Eaton Park,

or here on stage at Pittsburgh City Winery, how does that make you feel?

You know, I really don't care because I know he's joking because, you know, I do the same thing to him sometimes.

So what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

He has to eat a sandwich without a fork and knife.

A gravy sandwich?

Yep.

A hot gravy sandwich with his hands?

Yep.

I can't think of more

appropriate or exciting justice.

May I add that a video must be taken so that we can share it?

Yep.

All right.

So ordered.

This is the sound of a gap.

Thank you very much, Lee and Jen.

Thank you, Lee.

Welcome to the bird.

Welcome to the bird.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The brace short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much, you got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs.

It's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little

carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's

griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware.

I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be coming back to my beloved Made-In Entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Who's next?

Jesse Thorne Swift Justice.

We have Casey and Jesse.

Casey and Jesse met doing improv in Chicago.

Casey loves making and drinking delicious sun tea.

Jesse says Casey's tea is wheat.

Oh, Casey and Jesse.

Hello, welcome.

Hello.

Good evening.

Which one of you drove a motorcycle into town?

Neither of us.

We drove a Hyundai Koda.

That's right.

You just yes-handed each other into love.

Yes.

Right, I see.

And you left Chicago, and now you're here in Pittsburgh.

You're Pittsburghites, I believe.

That's right.

Yes.

I'm partial to the term Pittsburghander.

Pittsburghander.

Exactly.

I think that's right.

Have you ever been to our favorite restaurant, Eaton Park?

I have.

Really?

We love and are familiar with that restaurant.

Yes.

It's world famous.

Yeah.

So who seeks justice in this, my fake court?

I do, Your Honor.

And what, Casey, what is the justice you seek?

I seek her to admit that my sun tea is stronger, does not need to be better, but is at least stronger than her preferred brand of tea, which is just like a plastic bottle commercial brand tea that we buy at not Tubez Market, but Sam's Club.

Okay, fine.

You enjoy sun tea.

I enjoy sun tea.

For those of us who don't know, who have never seen the sun, what is sun tea?

Rather than using hot water to brew the tea and then turning it into iced tea, you get a bunch of water, stick a bunch of tea bags in it, put that out on your porch for all day long

in a container.

In what kind of vessel, a garbage bag?

I purchased a specific glass pitcher off of

the internet website for it.

Okay.

You didn't try a garbage bag?

You should try a garbage bag.

I should.

Yeah.

Might be stronger.

And Jesse, what's your...

Wow.

You're saying that Casey is weak tea.

Tell me what your dispute is here.

What's your beef?

I just don't think that the sun makes the tea strong enough.

Unless it's, I mean, maybe.

What do you mean by strong?

Like robust in flavor, caffinated enough?

Robust in flavor.

Like really packing that flavor punch.

Right.

That a good tea has.

Like the kind you get at Sam's Club.

Exactly.

And he's always trying to force you to drink his weak tea all the time.

No.

I offer it and I've tried to make it better each time and she gives me feedback, but it is still too weak for her.

Casey, when Jesse was talking to our producer, Jennifer Marmor, she claimed that if it weren't for you, Casey, Jesse would be eating frozen grapes for dinner.

It's true.

It is true.

Yes, very much.

What do you mean by that?

Before Casey came into my life,

I don't like to cook.

It's not for me.

And so I would eat frozen grapes and I would cook.

You won't even put tea bags into a garbage bag.

That's too much for you.

Gotta go to Sam's club.

I would boil a tea, but that's not what we're here about.

No, no, obviously.

But I would also cut up tomatoes and cucumbers.

I eat that a lot as well.

I just, I don't like to cook, but this one really does.

Well, since he has some expertise in the kitchen and in preparing foods, why don't you just accept his expertise with regard to tea?

Because it's not expertise, unfortunately.

What is the brand of your preferred iced tea since we're buzz marketing everything?

The one that we have access to is Pure Leaf?

Pure Leaf, yes.

Pure Leaf.

Pure Leaf.

Yes.

The one you have access to?

Well, because we're a sand.

There's some sort of land blockade

by the Pure Leaf Corporation.

Hey, you want to hear, you need to do a local reference that everyone's going to love?

All right.

Yeah, sure.

You ever, by the way, speaking of iced tea, you ever try an Arnold Palmer?

Ooh.

You know what it is?

It's half iced tea, half a local regional airport.

Arnold Palmer.

I believe that we have taste tests that we can do here live on Sunday.

We do, yes.

I don't know why I'm not eating a sandwich covered in gravy right now instead of drinking tea.

Well, here's Jennifer Marmor now.

Move this out of the way.

There's our engineer, Matthew Barnard.

Matthew Barnard is here.

I've been handed an envelope with, it says tea answers because it's a blind taste test.

So it looks to me like these, the teas are separated by height of glass, correct?

So this is one of these is sun tea.

One of these is your preferred brand of Sam's Club bottled tea Pureleaf, right?

That's correct.

All right.

Sponsor Judge John Hodgman, Pureleaf, please.

And

I'm noticing a difference in color.

One of the tall glass ones, the high balls here, are a little lighter in color, but I'm not going to, other than that, I'm just going to drink.

Do you want to try some, Jesse?

I'd love to try some of this delicious tea.

Let's try this one first.

By the way, Tea Answers is also an infomercial I watched late last night on ESPN.

And cheers.

Well, that was refreshing.

Tastes like tea.

Tastes like tea, doesn't it?

Here, you can give that back to me.

Okay.

And I'm going to hand to you

a tall glass

of brand X.

So this one, I'm going to say, is a little fruitier, a little like more acidic, and a little less bitter.

It tastes like tea to me.

Well, that's interesting because if I had to guess, the one on the left in the tieball glass is probably the sun tea.

I'm going to say the tall one is the Coke and the short one's the Pepsi.

I will say that off your hands.

The Pure Leaf is a Pepsi product.

Okay.

Let's go easy now with the Pork Leaf.

Too many brands.

Too many Too many brands.

The Snap O lady is here tonight.

Thank you, PNC Bank, for sponsoring Judge John Hoffman.

And guess what, everybody in the world?

I was wrong.

I thought for sure.

Hold on, because I don't know.

I think the tall one.

Okay.

Because it's less bitter, I'm going to say the tall one is the sun tea.

Me too.

That's what I would have said because when I read a long article by Kenji Lopez Alt, Friend of the Court, Friend of the Court about sun tea, he was like, the reason that people make it is it tends to be lighter and less acidic and less bitter than tea that is boiled and then come to be cool.

So it's a lighter, more refreshing thing.

Kenji also says, by the way, Casey, if you brew sun tea out in the sun, it's an invitation to bacterial infection.

And if you put a bunch of tea leaves into a glass container and just put it in the fridge for hours, it'll taste exactly the same and it'll be safe to drink.

So I don't know.

Ha.

Yeah.

I'm not saying Kenji says this is going to happen.

He's just saying there is a risk of it happening.

And he's a semi-scientist.

That's true.

In any case, Kenji Lopez alt said that the sun tea tends to be lighter, less acidic, and so forth.

But when I open up the tea answers here, it

says to me here that the tall glass is pure leaf by PepsiCo, and the short glass is sun tea, which is a real reversal because I felt that the short class was much stronger.

I thought the same thing.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Collusion.

See, I'm sorry.

I have the tea answers right here.

Do you want to see them?

I trust you, but yes.

All right.

I mean, I think that my judgment is very clear in this case because I believe that the sun tea is stronger, more flavorful, more delicious than your PepsiCo product.

But the real question is, which one of these is roofy?

This is the sound of a gap.

Judge John Hodgkin rules that is all.

Sorry about that, Jesse.

That's quite all right.

Thank you, Casey and Jesse.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

And a friend of our program, indeed, a regular contributor to our program, has an amazing new book that everybody needs to check out.

We're talking about guest bailiff Gene Gray, a singer, actor, comedian, fashion icon,

and puppeteer.

I mean, literal puppeteer of puppets, not just humans, but Gene does help steer you to your best life, as you will discover if you read.

Gene's memoir, In My Remaining Years.

I say that name again, In My Remaining Years.

It is a hilarious, moving, and very wise memoir of a very, very specific and inspired life

and learning to change your life when you're older, phases of life from growing up in the Chelsea Hotel to traveling all around the world as one of the most renowned underground rap artists

to then hiding and turning your hiding during lockdown and turning your whole house in Baltimore into the set of an adult puppet show.

It's an incredible book.

I just finished reading it and I love it very much.

So please support Gene Gray and go and support yourself by going out and pre-ordering In My Remaining Years by Gene Gray.

And here's my advanced reading copy of it.

I'm going to show it to the camera right now.

There it is.

And there's Gene right there on the cover with that wonderful photo by Mindy Tucker.

It's incredible.

Flatiron Books presents In My Remaining Years by Gene Gray.

Go get it.

I want to mention that on my NPR show, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, we've had some really cool guests lately.

Go check out our interviews with Stanley Tucci

and Adam Scott and this week, Mike Lee, who I believe is the greatest living filmmaker

for me anyway.

Just a true genius now in his 80s, as sharp as ever, and incredible stories and just incredible insights about creating art.

So go search for Bullseye with Jesse Thorne in your podcast app and hit subscribe.

Let's get back to the case.

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, are you ready for mega justice?

Mega Justice.

Let's bring out our litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Michael and Bae.

Tonight's case, the Pegacorn Brief.

Michael brings the case against his daughter, Bae.

Since childhood, Bae has insisted that unicorns can have wings.

Michael says Bae needs to grow up and stop dreaming.

A unicorn is a horse with a horn.

Period.

Only Pegasi can fly.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

From one to another,

another to one, a mark of one's destiny, singled out alone, fulfilled.

From all of us together, together, we are friends.

With the marks of our destinies made one,

there is magic without end.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the little tigans in.

Michael and Bay, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth?

The whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has wings?

Yes.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Michael and Bay, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you identify the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Oh, I see, Michael, you're nodding along.

So why don't you guess first?

Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

Is that actually a movie?

Yes.

It's actually a YouTube video.

A YouTube video.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Well, Charlie the Unicorn, the movie, is a YouTube video.

Yes.

Some creative liberties were taken with the movie part.

Okay, I see.

I'm sorry I didn't hear about that, Pittsburgh.

I'm writing it down, though, in the guest book here.

There we go.

Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

He's not a Ginzer.

All right, Michael.

You settle down.

You didn't have a ticket yesterday.

Just relax.

True enough.

All right, Bae, do you have a guess as well?

I would like to guess Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

How about another one?

No, that's all I have.

Charlie the Unicorn again.

All guesses are wrong.

Of course, that

is the spell that was cast by Star Swirl, the the bearded, in My Little Pony Friendship is Magic at season three, episode 13,

wherein the unicorn Twilight Sparkle grows wings and a new word is coined for this magical creature in the My Little Pony verse called a what peg.

That would be an alicorn.

Alicorn is correct.

This,

an alicorn,

is a horned pegasus.

There are other terms, of course.

There is

the Unipeg.

There's the Unisus.

Unipeg is the one that Dan Savage coined.

And, of course, the pegacorn is another name for it.

And by the way, this is classical mythology we're talking about.

This episode aired in 2013.

So yet, Michael, you deny.

And you say that an alicorn doesn't even exist.

Is that what you are?

I see.

So I mentioned earlier, Michael, that you didn't have a ticket yesterday.

Yes.

And in fact, apparently, you and I have met before.

Yes, we have.

What were the circumstances?

Well, I was on the Ocean City boardwalk with my family.

Down the shore.

Lovely daughter Bay.

When was this?

I'm going to say 2006, 2008, something like that.

Yeah, the height of Hodgemania on the OC boards.

Yes.

Good times.

And what happened?

Was also the height of PC versus Mac.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

And I I had a very fond connection to the PC version, unfortunately.

But

when I'm

right here.

I don't care.

I don't care.

Hold on.

Where's Justin Wall?

No.

Don't give them hope.

But I saw Judge John Hodgman and family on the boardwalk.

Yeah, and this is a great time to approach a guy.

I could not control myself.

I was so excited.

I love you, man.

I remember.

You do?

I do.

I remember that walk down the Ocean City boardwalk with my, sorry, Philadelphia family.

That's right.

And

that was the summer of those ads.

And all of a sudden, lots of people were coming at me.

I'd never experienced anything like it.

And of all of them, you made me the least uncomfortable.

Well, thank you.

That's right.

After all these years of hearing about obnoxious fans, I was really concerned I was one of those people.

Well, but then you wrote me saying, I don't have tickets to your show.

Well, that's true, too.

But I've got a dispute with my daughter, Bae.

Yes.

And so my question to you, is this dispute real or did you make it up in order to stalk me again?

Oh, it's absolutely real.

All right.

Bae, when did you start dreaming of unicorns that could fly?

I've been dreaming for so long.

Probably, you know, around those years when I was just loving horses and fantastical, whimsical things.

Sure.

So I was about five then.

So let's say around four.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's fine.

And when did you start dreaming specifically about a unicorn with wings?

Do you remember?

I don't know.

I mean, not I can't place it precisely, but

that day actually that we met you.

Yeah.

I'm so sorry.

I don't remember meeting you, but I do remember we stopped in a little shop.

I'm deeply offended.

Well, I'm sorry.

There was just a long string of people on the boardwalk that your dad yelled, I love you.

He's a lover.

Frankly, I'm glad that you survived the embarrassment of your father yelling.

Well, I had to help me to get me through it.

We went into a little shop and I purchased and found a hermit crab with a painted shell featuring a winged unicorn.

So that

same day,

that very day

that you remember meeting me.

I have to do that.

Remember the hermit crab, but not John Hodgman.

I understand.

That's fair.

Well, the hermit crab came first.

Oh, it was already in.

Right.

So you could have met it.

I might have met.

I'm sure he did.

And the deal on the Ocean City Boardwalk is that

I'm not sure if you know this.

It's one of the biggest hermit crab markets in the Eastern Seaboard.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the deal is the hermit crab comes free with the cage.

You're buying the cage.

It's like McDonald's.

They're in real estate.

You know what I mean?

They're in the hermit crab cage business.

Yes.

And what was the name of your hermit crab?

I do not know.

I don't know if you name hermit crabs, but...

Well, young John Hodgman certainly did.

Oh, wow.

Krabby and Shelly.

Well, that's better than anything I came up with.

Did your hermit crabs chirp at night and make weird noises?

No, I think just yours.

Did your hermit crabs escape and then die behind the radiator?

What?

Your hermit crabs died behind the radiator?

Yeah.

My frog died in the back of the closet.

We lost him.

His name was Boutros Boutros Froggy.

He got out of the aquarium and we didn't know where he was until we found him like six months later in the back of the closet, completely desiccated.

There was definitely a very hermity-crabby smell that permeated my room when Shelly and Krabby

They escaped.

I got that.

Yeah.

Do you remember your hermit crab dying?

No, but I remember a lot of times thinking it had died and it had really just molted and then it would be like naked in its cage in a very scary way.

That's a terrifying thing.

And did you provide it with a larger shell to move into?

Yes, I did.

And I was

a very conscientious hermit crab, but

it was a little bit corn on the new larger shell.

So it would recognize itself in America.

Sorry, I interrupted.

You were saying, I'd just like to say.

I would just like to say, don't buy those.

And hermit crabs should not have painted shells.

Yeah, no, it's terrible.

Yeah, it's very

not an industry you want to support.

Not like

all 10 locations of Eaton Park here in Halloween.

Yes.

Pittsburgh.

Avalon.

McKnight Road North.

McKnight Road South.

I think you missed

my Eaton Park.

Which was it?

South Hills?

Was it Penn Hills Village?

Oh, no, Penn Hills, South Hills Village.

No.

Dormont, I said.

Whitehall.

Freeport Road and Adrona Heights.

Oh,

that wasn't on the website.

Maybe it's a new one.

No.

No.

How did I come around a loser on this again?

Didn't you hear me say?

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne from the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Whenever I want old school liver and onions,

I think I look, I would absolutely do a live ad read for Eaton Park, and they should sponsor Judge John Hodgman.

Yeah.

Woo-hoo!

If I, we don't, look, we got to fly away tomorrow.

We should, I mean, I we planned this wrong because we're in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Beautiful Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Home to not one but two incline railroads, Jesse.

Two funicular towns.

This town put the nicular in funicular.

And then I could get liver and onions.

We just made a terrible mistake.

We're going to have to come back.

But meanwhile, yes.

Meanwhile, we're here in the present talking about the past.

Yes.

So on the show, you don't remember what you named this.

No, I do not.

No.

But

did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you showed the shell that had the unicorn with the body?

And joy and whimsy.

I felt a lot of things.

And here, after all, Michael was proof that an alicorn exists, right?

Why do you deny it even further?

Well, it's just a unicorn somebody painted wings on.

You're right.

You're right.

I'm sorry.

I'm like the real-life animal.

And we were

happy

to get there.

It was a flight of fancy, of imagination,

rather than the real-life animal of a unicorn or Pegasus.

Bae, do you have any more examples of unicorns with wings?

I do.

Actually, funny enough.

Here's a dead hermit crab in my purse.

Before this all started, we had some time.

So we headed on next door so I could buy a little toy from the bookstore.

And what did we find but a whole collection of winged unicorns?

Winged unicorns at Poseman Books next door.

See, I know some things.

That's delightful.

I'm just going to hold on to it for a moment to examine it.

Seems to be absolutely real, very material,

not a

young person's flight of fancy, but a very real thing.

Jesse, would you like to touch my alicorn?

You're an adult daughter.

I am.

And what's going on in your life?

I just graduated from Allegheny College.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And

now I'm unemployed.

Yay.

So.

Maybe we can help

connect you with a job.

What kind of work are you looking for?

I'm environmental science, specifically environmental justice and urban planning.

No future in that.

Right, right.

And even worse.

With a focus on crab desiccation.

Yeah, and then an art minor.

Congratulations.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

You must be very proud, my child of your buddy daughter.

I'm very proud.

So why are you trying to keep her down?

Why are you trying to destroy her hopes and dreams?

You know, as a dad, it's my job to explain to her how things are.

Of course.

Perhaps that was once true, but now she's an adult.

Right.

Well, that's true.

Show me the evidence.

So here we are.

Okay, we do have some evidence here.

Aside from this physical evidence.

Oh, look at this.

Tell me that's not real.

That the records show.

Obviously, these images will be available on our show page at maximumfund.org and as well as on our Instagram page at Judge John Hodgman.

And what we're looking at here is obviously real photographic evidence of

a calicorn or a Unipeg, as it were.

A peg of corn is a beautiful, a beautiful illustration.

Next slide, please.

Look at this.

The title of the book is Unicorn Wings.

And not only does this unicorn have a horn and wings, but also a beard,

much like our motorcyclist Lee had earlier in the program.

A long white beard.

Michael, this is a book.

A what?

This is a book.

How can you deny the existence of an alicorn when you see it's on the cover of a book?

Or would you rather burn this book

in order in order to keep the world

in order to restrict knowledge and keep the world the way you want it to be in Michael's defense Judge Hodgman he's still on reading step one

that's not a history book or a biology book or

oh you read it

no I'm only on one

Michael what makes a unicorn or a Pegasus real and an alicorn not real

well I had never heard of the term alicorn oh then it must not exist

exactly dad hasn't heard of it certainly not a unicorn no it is

if you were to make an argument that might be let's say persuasive or convincing how about if I said it wasn't a unicorn was an alicorn no no no because on the Wikipedia page for alicorns thank you

They are described as a unicorn with wings.

Very specifically not a horse with wings and a horn, but they are a subgenre of unicorn.

That's right.

When Carl Linnaeus was making the taxonomy of species.

I think our dispute predates Wikipedia.

Does it?

Nothing predates Wikipedia.

Is your contention

content?

Oh, you sweet summer child.

Next thing you know, you'll be describing telephones tied to ropes.

I just want to call back to a moment earlier when we were talking about the series of ads for Apple Computer that I was in

when they shrugged,

shrugged with the most in the most emoji of shrugs, in the most withering way, as to say, I don't care about that.

You're dead already.

Those were great commercials.

All right, weirdo.

Back off.

We're not in Ocean Ocean City anymore.

Is your contention that

because a unicorn and or a Pegasus are more established mythological creatures in culture,

in ancient cultures and contemporary culture,

that they have more validity than the winged unicorn, sometimes called an alicorn?

Honestly, before I say that I never heard of an alicorn.

So to me,

it just began as Bae

wishing that they were

just wanting to kill my dreams.

Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, this is what you're coming to.

I offered you the same way.

I offered you a persuasive argument.

The same way that now I was prepared to shut that down, but it was not good.

It was a line of argument that could have persuaded somebody, but instead, you are just holding fast to the idea that starting when your daughter was four or five, what was important was that you be right

and she be wrong.

I didn't want her to cross the road.

Evidence of the Hermit Grab Shell notwithstanding.

Sorry, what were you saying?

I just giggled.

No, no, no, I was talking to your dad.

Okay, but you looked right at me.

I apologize.

As a dad, I was just trying to tell her how the world was.

Look both ways before you cross the road.

Yeah, that's reasonable.

And so it's the same thing.

Because cars exist.

But, I mean, do you look both ways before you cross the yellow brick road?

No, you don't cross the yellow brick road.

You follow me.

No, no, it crosses you.

Has your dad always been trying to suppress your imagination?

Yes.

Any other examples?

No, I was just actually lying.

He does not do that,

which is why this is just such an odd hill to die on.

How does it make you feel?

And maybe a more important question.

How did it make you feel for your dad to deny the existence of a mythical creature that you enjoyed thinking about?

I think it didn't make me feel too saddened.

I've always had, been pretty sure of myself.

So I think I, if anything, maybe just felt bad for him that

this...

At this age, I was already aware of my childlike wonder and how lost it was on him.

Do you have any siblings?

I have a little brother.

And does he has his imagination been crushed by your dad?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Poor kid.

Babe, do you know what it's like to be a dad?

To know that you're dying atop any hill you stand astride.

I don't know what it's like to be a dad, but

I hope I never will.

How would, if you were to become a parent,

if you were to have a kid or have to care for a kid,

how would you approach things differently with regard to imagination compared to your dad?

I would say, oh, you know what?

That is such a good point.

Perception is reality.

If you think that critter exists, anything you can dream is real.

Horses can have wings and be alicorns.

We'll get you all the hermit crabs you want.

That's what I have to do.

I think that's a really good parenting approach.

Thank you.

Why didn't you choose that approach?

I mean, you say it is to tell her how the world is.

Right.

What were you really trying to do here?

I didn't want people to make fun of her.

If she walked around thinking that unicorns had wings, I mean, she might be...

You might look silly.

I think I've heard everything I need to inform.

I've been picked on in school.

Yeah, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'll be going into my chambers now.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Bae, how are you feeling right now about your chances in the case?

I feel pretty good.

I don't think he has much of an argument.

So,

yeah.

And I have a real winged unicorn right there.

What other animals do you think could have wings potentially?

Hmm.

Birds.

Now, that's a good one.

That's one I haven't thought of.

I got to hand you that one, babe.

Michael, how are you feeling about your chances?

Well, I felt really

good coming in, but why was that?

And that calicorn.

I told you to do research.

I did.

I looked up unicorn.

Every single time, it said the same thing.

A horse with one horn.

It has that, too.

That's it.

Yeah.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he returns.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

The year was 2006.

Arguably the apex of my life.

I was walking down the boardwalk, deciding to go to Preps, Not Manco, and Manco.

Oh, you don't know that local reference?

You monsters.

Mac and Manco back then.

Back then it was Mac and Manco.

Thank you for getting in the way of my virgin.

Thank you for correcting me.

Thank you for keeping me from being teased in the schoolyard, Dad.

And while you were accosting me,

and I was assuredly loving it, thank you for seeing me.

It is a gift when you are seen by someone, and that was very nice.

In the meantime, your daughter was imagining a fantasy, a fantasy of unicorns with wings, a fantasy that you had already tried to suppress in her, and yet she found in a remarkable moment of magical realism on the boardwalk, proof of concept in this hermit crab shell.

And even then, you tried to deny the reality of what was before her very eyes.

This was 2006, a full seven years before Twilight Sparkle became an alicorn.

I just want to make sure I get that right before I get letters.

I was right, Twilight Sparkle

became a winged unicorn on My Little Pony, Friendship is Magic, and introduced the alicorn to the world, or did it?

If you had made the argument that, that, for example,

Pegasi and unicorns have been around in sort of popular imagination for hundreds, if not thousands of years, that might have been an argument.

It was like, well, there is an established mythological creature.

What you're thinking about is just a dumb cartoon from just a few years ago or a few years in the future.

You didn't know.

Your daughter was seeing into the future.

You see what I'm saying?

But in fact, she was also channeling the past because I would have said, what, sir, about the Ethiopian Pegasus?

Aha!

Thank you very much.

One person in the front row understands what I'm talking about.

Who observed the so-called horned, winged horse and called it the Ethiopian Pegasus, if I may ask?

Do you know?

Pliny the Elder.

Pliny the Elder in the first century AD.

And

it became

common of medieval bestiaries hundreds of years later and for hundreds of years.

The winged unicorn, Michael, is a thing.

Woo!

Of course it is.

Of course it is.

Of course it's a thing.

Oh, you're giving that winged unicorn to him as a peace offering?

No, just comfort.

I want it back.

Oh, yeah.

I can get some magic off of it.

Yeah, stop rubbing that alicorn for a second because my verdict isn't over because I need you to hear something.

Now, look.

I understand

that

when parents are parents of younger children, right,

that sometimes

you want to make sure that they're getting the right.

I can't justify what you were doing.

Your wonderful daughter came up with something, a flight of fancy in her head, and you told her, no, you're going to be made fun of.

If you ever tell anyone that unicorns have wings, you're going to be a pariah.

Now,

maybe that's true in Pittsburgh.

It's easy, apparently, to become a pariah in Pittsburgh.

One wrong step,

and you're yeeted into the Monongahela.

But in real life, sir, that is to say, life outside of Pittsburgh.

Wow.

May I, I apologize, see now I'm a pariah with you too.

Well, I always was because I'm old and you're young.

But

may I ask you to consider

on this stage, you wanted to protect your daughter from being made fun of.

And yet who has been the object of ridicule from the moment you stepped foot on stage?

Oh, it didn't feel that way.

I don't know what you were thinking when you were the parent of a young child, but as a parent of an old child, it feels good.

It feels fun sometimes

to get your adult child's goat, a non-mythical creature, and to annoy them in order to get a response from you because they are growing in the world and leaving you behind.

That is the hard truth.

Sorry, I'm going to suppress your.

I want to suppress your imagination and bring you to some home truths here.

I'm living it.

Yeah.

Karma.

And yet, then and now, what you should do with your child when he or she or they comes up with something wonderful and eventually will become a major part of my little pony IP.

That's very far-sighted.

You celebrate that imagination.

You don't tamp it down.

After all, you know, there's nothing more magical than an alicorn or a you know, whatever it is, than perhaps your own kid.

So

what is the, what is the name of that creature that you're holding right now?

Like, you want me to assign it a name?

Sorry, maybe that's very old thing.

I just met him.

I don't know yet.

All right.

What's like a sushi-based name?

I mean, it does look like he's made out of shrimp sushi.

There's a little sushi platter and a little cat of like a little lucky cat.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, I do.

This is an amazing bookstore.

They got ice cream, too.

Yeah.

Is it Poseman Books?

Is that it?

Yeah.

I also got this sunny angel.

And then here's the little cat.

The little

color.

This is wonderful.

Are you sure you're going to want to bat this out of your daughter's hand and tell her to grow up?

Not at all.

Grow up and get real Bae.

And

there.

It's not a cat.

It's too small.

It looks delicious.

I order you to apologize to Bae on stage and say whatever's on your mind, something along the lines of keep dreaming, unicorns have wings.

May I hear you say it, please?

Bae, keep your same wonderful, whimsical spirit.

Unicorns have wings.

Woo!

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Michael and Bae, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thanks to Reddit user PyScuffle for naming this week's episode.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod.

And if you're on Blue Sky, we're up on Blue Sky now at JudgeJohnHodgman.

And I should note that after the show, litigant Lee wrote in with an update.

He actually followed through with my ruling.

He ate Eaton Park's shredded pot roast sandwich covered in gravy with his bare hands, and he got it all on video.

He did an incredible job not making a complete mess, but he also did an incredible job making a small mess.

So check that out on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and

wherever you see little videos from us.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode recorded by Matthew Barnard.

Our new social media producer is Dan Telfer, A.J.

McKeon.

Our podcast editor, Daniel Speer, is our video producer.

Our producer, of course, the ever-capable Jennifer Marmor.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You might talk to them next time.

I'll talk to Jin's next time.

Pittsburgh.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows.

Supported directly by you.