The Pegacorn Brief Live in Pittsburgh

Speaker 1 It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I am Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Speaker 1 With me is Judge John Hodgman, and this week's episode was recorded live on stage in the breathtakingly beautiful city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 4 Truly, what a beautiful American city is the town that Ketchup built and steel

Speaker 4 and French fries on sandwiches.

Speaker 5 And the three.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Pittsburgh.

Speaker 7 It was our podcast's first time in Pittsburgh, and

Speaker 4 we had a wonderful time. It did not disappoint, nor did that incredible audience

Speaker 4 with wild cases from start to finish. In this episode, we talk about unicorns, sun tea, and gravy on sandwiches.

Speaker 4 Make sure to stay tuned through the end of the episode for a special update having to do with this gravy sandwich combo at Pittsburgh's favorite, Eden Park.

Speaker 1 There was so much we need justice energy built up inside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, like it erupted on stage.

Speaker 3 It's great, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, let's go to the stage at the City Winery in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 People of Pittsburgh, you asked us for live justice, and we are here to deliver it. The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Speaker 1 Let's bring out our first case.

Speaker 11 Please welcome to the stage Lee and Jen.

Speaker 10 Lee and Jen met when Lee happened to be motorcycling in Jen's town.

Speaker 1 Jen likes to put gravy on sandwiches and eat them with a fork and knife. When she does this, Lee says she's no longer eating a sandwich.

Speaker 1 Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Speaker 16 Lee and Jen.

Speaker 17 I guess we're not ready.

Speaker 18 You may be seated.

Speaker 19 What is your relationship to one another, if I may ask?

Speaker 2 We are married.

Speaker 21 You are married.

Speaker 12 And you met riding a motorcycle through town, and then you just grabbed Jen and

Speaker 13 made off for the hills?

Speaker 26 Isn't that how it's done?

Speaker 29 How did that happen?

Speaker 30 That's an interesting meet, cute.

Speaker 31 I found myself single. back in the pandemic era, right at the beginning.
And

Speaker 26 I got on this app called Happen.

Speaker 32 I'd never heard of it, but

Speaker 1 it works.

Speaker 17 H-A-P-P-N.

Speaker 33 We're not advertising the app.

Speaker 28 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 34 Sorry for the buzz market.

Speaker 31 So, what it does is it matches you with people in your area. And I just, I was riding my motorcycle a lot, and I happened to be in that area a few times.
And suddenly it matched me.

Speaker 23 You just got a ping on your phone. I got a pen saying the love of your life is coming through.

Speaker 35 Pretty much.

Speaker 3 A real rebel.

Speaker 13 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 31 And we pretty much knew we were getting married after about a week.

Speaker 3 So wonderful.

Speaker 1 I think it's incredible that they have an app to identify that someone is there.

Speaker 27 Creepy.

Speaker 1 What would we do without smartphones?

Speaker 22 So, Lee,

Speaker 39 you love Jen, right?

Speaker 20 Yeah.

Speaker 20 How long have you been married at this point?

Speaker 31 February 2021.

Speaker 41 22. 22.

Speaker 13 All right.

Speaker 42 Ask her.

Speaker 13 So far, so goodly.

Speaker 6 What problem could you possibly have with gravy on sandwiches?

Speaker 31 Okay, that's not it at all.

Speaker 31 My problem isn't with gravy.

Speaker 21 Whoa. Slow your roll, dear doctor.

Speaker 20 Okay, Marlon Brando and the wild ones, tell me.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 31 I'm a pet ann.

Speaker 13 I admit it.

Speaker 31 And

Speaker 31 it's Pittsburghers, by the way.

Speaker 46 What did I say?

Speaker 13 Pittsburghians.

Speaker 40 Oh, well, shut up.

Speaker 47 So I'm a pet ant.

Speaker 8 Jensers?

Speaker 13 So what...

Speaker 48 You notice I did not say Jinzers.

Speaker 19 I'm not walking into that trap again.

Speaker 49 You mean Ginzers?

Speaker 13 Whoa, wow. Deep cuts.

Speaker 39 Deep cuts.

Speaker 48 The deep cuts cut deep today on stage.

Speaker 45 The pet ant knows. Sorry.

Speaker 39 All right.

Speaker 50 So what gender?

Speaker 43 I'm a petant.

Speaker 19 It's not often that a guy will admit to that as proudly as you do.

Speaker 31 I'll admit to anything.

Speaker 22 Do you have that tattooed in Gothic script across your belly?

Speaker 31 No, but I like the idea.

Speaker 34 Me too.

Speaker 31 So what Jen does is she will take a hot sandwich consisting of a piece of bread,

Speaker 31 a piece,

Speaker 15 a bunch of maybe pulled pork or turkey or whatever it is.

Speaker 19 Sandwich filling.

Speaker 31 Sandwich filling. Right.
If you will. And a piece of bread on top.

Speaker 31 And then slather it in gravy of some kind.

Speaker 9 Sounds delicious.

Speaker 2 It does. Sounds awesome.

Speaker 13 It's great.

Speaker 31 And that's still technically a sandwich.

Speaker 32 You could pick that up and eat it.

Speaker 31 Now, when she cuts open the face of that sandwich, it is now an open-faced sandwich.

Speaker 48 When she uses a knife and fork.

Speaker 39 Correct.

Speaker 20 Much like the Catholic miracle of transubstantiation.

Speaker 47 Yes.

Speaker 55 It is no longer a sandwich.

Speaker 51 It is the holy body of open face.

Speaker 31 Yes, it has been transformed. I see.

Speaker 1 The miracle of the fish, the loaves, and the gravy.

Speaker 19 Jen, I believe you sent in some evidence, a picture of one of your gravy-covered sandwiches.

Speaker 17 Oh, he sent in the.

Speaker 3 Oh, I apologize. Yeah.

Speaker 56 But maybe you'll tell us about it if we see it now.

Speaker 19 Jesse Thorne, may we see the first?

Speaker 42 Okay.

Speaker 30 Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith.

Speaker 57 Here is

Speaker 6 a sandwich covered in gravy,

Speaker 20 beautifully plated, insofar as it's on a plate.

Speaker 31 You can thank Eaton Park.

Speaker 27 It was Eaton Park.

Speaker 32 What's that? As a local, like, app

Speaker 42 big boy.

Speaker 36 Uh-oh.

Speaker 11 We just stepped on some sort of sandwich landline.

Speaker 58 We'll save that dispute for later, I think.

Speaker 31 It's your four o'clock retiree liver and onions type of place okay but why was there that reaction to it in the crowd

Speaker 31 because you didn't know what it was and you know what oh that was that me yeah

Speaker 40 oh I'm sorry shut up

Speaker 6 I don't live here

Speaker 14 to paraphrase Andy Kaufman I'm from New York

Speaker 9 I don't know all your things

Speaker 1 You're going to have to give us a list of Pittsburgh gravy facts later.

Speaker 61 Let's stick stick with the facts.

Speaker 22 And you eat this.

Speaker 15 Tell us about your sandwich here.

Speaker 17 This is a hot roast beef sandwich.

Speaker 2 Seems delicious.

Speaker 17 A sandwich. It's got the bread on the bottom, the meat in the middle, bread on top, and it's just covered in gravy.

Speaker 15 Yeah, but where are the french fries in that sandwich?

Speaker 17 I don't like french fries on my sandwich.

Speaker 62 I'm getting the feeling here that

Speaker 20 I'm the villain of this show.

Speaker 15 And I'll take that heat.

Speaker 63 I can be the heel that Pittsburgh deserves.

Speaker 64 Please go on.

Speaker 17 So I usually get mashed potatoes with it.

Speaker 39 Sure.

Speaker 27 Covered in gravy.

Speaker 19 You don't put the mashed potatoes on top of the sandwich, do you?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 9 You put them inside the sandwich.

Speaker 17 I eat them on the side.

Speaker 43 On the side.

Speaker 65 Okay. Well, this looks delicious.

Speaker 15 Hot roast beef sandwich with gravy.

Speaker 23 And now you're going to eat it with a knife and fork.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I cut it up.

Speaker 66 Next slide, please.

Speaker 13 There you go. You cut it right up.
Yeah.

Speaker 17 Because if I would eat it

Speaker 17 as a sandwich, and I have a propensity to spill stuff on me all the time,

Speaker 8 I don't want gravy all over me.

Speaker 1 No, look, we agree.

Speaker 59 I don't know why you're listening to this guy.

Speaker 13 That's what I've been saying.

Speaker 55 Saying that, you know, you could hypothetically still pick it up with your hands if you want it to be a sandwich.

Speaker 52 Gonna get gravy all.

Speaker 43 You're saying it's the knife and fork that makes it not a sandwich, that makes it an open-face sandwich, even though, sir, clearly the gravy face is closed.

Speaker 39 Is it not?

Speaker 31 Well, that looks like it's had cosmetic surgery to me, and the face has been opened up.

Speaker 15 Lee, you say you're a pet aunt about sandwiches.

Speaker 13 About a lot of things.

Speaker 19 Okay, well, let's just focus on this right now.

Speaker 47 Okay.

Speaker 30 Lee, is a hot dog a sandwich?

Speaker 31 It's a taco.

Speaker 67 Boo.

Speaker 67 Boo.

Speaker 68 Yeah, where were you, my Pittsburgh booers?

Speaker 14 Simple misunderstandings. You're like, oh, kill him.

Speaker 6 This guy's out here calling a hot dog a to.

Speaker 29 And you're like, you know, he makes a good point.

Speaker 63 I dismantle the hot dog as a taco thing on television, sir, on the Colbert, on Colbert's show.

Speaker 9 A hot dog is a daily show.

Speaker 14 That's cultural appropriation.

Speaker 1 That's true.

Speaker 19 Is a hot dog a sandwich?

Speaker 70 Yes or no?

Speaker 19 Jen, same question. Hot dog a sandwich?

Speaker 17 If the hot dog bun is not connected on the one end, it could be a sandwich. Otherwise,

Speaker 47 no.

Speaker 17 It's a hot dog.

Speaker 39 I'll accept that because I like you.

Speaker 23 What is so important about sandwich-ness to you that you have to

Speaker 39 criticize the love of your life while she's just trying to enjoy a hot roast beef sandwich, a delicious hot roast beef sandwich at Eaton

Speaker 46 Park, the place that I know so well, one of our favorite places that we love to go to.

Speaker 31 It's the place for smiles.

Speaker 1 A woman in the front row literally just did this.

Speaker 47 Park.

Speaker 1 Why do you care?

Speaker 31 I don't.

Speaker 5 Why are we here?

Speaker 31 We were out having a drink on the back patio, and somehow this came up, and

Speaker 31 I said, that's not an open-faced sandwich. I mean, that's now an open-faced sandwich after you've mangled it.
And so we just went back and forth, and we were coming here.

Speaker 31 So I said, well, let's ask the honorable Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 15 Jen, Lee admits that he's a pedant

Speaker 20 why are you married to him

Speaker 17 because he is a great husband and father and stepfather that's nice

Speaker 50 you lost your jewelry apparently

Speaker 13 what fell down there your keys bracelet

Speaker 64 I thought your tears were made of black chains

Speaker 19 What else is he pedantic about?

Speaker 30 Is there anything I can rule against him besides this?

Speaker 17 My grammar.

Speaker 17 He has to correct me all the time when I say things that he doesn't like.

Speaker 45 Is there something you want to criticize right now, Lee?

Speaker 31 I don't know if it's a criticism. It's more that I think it's adorable.

Speaker 31 When she says, all's I know.

Speaker 42 Yeah. Dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 15 All's I know, that's not even a grammar issue.

Speaker 46 That's just a regional dialect thing. Yeah.

Speaker 74 Yeah.

Speaker 66 It's adorable.

Speaker 31 Or when she says the majority of something, which is adorable, it's like West Virginian or something.

Speaker 8 I love it on Super Senate.

Speaker 15 Well, how do you

Speaker 15 feel when Lee criticizes you?

Speaker 1 John, this isn't a serious situation like when I refer to me and Jordan, my co-host, Jordan, Jesse Go.

Speaker 30 Yeah, well, that was correct.

Speaker 1 You just break out into horrible, like, yeah, tears because I did say Jordan and I.

Speaker 46 I cry black chains, yeah.

Speaker 43 Jen, so when

Speaker 48 Lee is being pedantic and criticizing

Speaker 52 the way you say words, the way you eat sandwiches, whether it is at everybody's favorite restaurant, Eaton Park,

Speaker 46 or here on stage at Pittsburgh City Winery, how does that make you feel?

Speaker 17 You know, I really don't care because I know he's joking because, you know, I do the same thing to him sometimes.

Speaker 39 So what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

Speaker 17 He has to eat a sandwich without a fork and knife.

Speaker 50 A gravy sandwich? Yep.

Speaker 14 A hot gravy sandwich with his hands?

Speaker 24 Yep.

Speaker 10 I can't think of more

Speaker 73 appropriate or exciting justice.

Speaker 7 May I add that a video must be taken so that we can share it?

Speaker 27 Yep.

Speaker 61 All right.

Speaker 14 So ordered. This is the sound of a gap.

Speaker 23 Thank you very much, Lee and Jen.

Speaker 47 Thank you, Lee.

Speaker 60 Welcome to the bird.

Speaker 38 Welcome to the bird.

Speaker 75 Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Speaker 75 Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

Speaker 75 If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

Speaker 1 The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Speaker 76 Let me ask you a question. Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

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Speaker 1 It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands. We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

Speaker 1 I have a little

Speaker 1 carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

Speaker 1 And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

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Speaker 18 Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Speaker 19 Who's next? Jesse Thorne Swift Justice.

Speaker 1 We have Casey and Jesse. Casey and Jesse met doing improv in Chicago.
Casey loves making and drinking delicious sun tea. Jesse says Casey's tea is wheat.

Speaker 14 Oh, Casey and Jesse.

Speaker 13 Hello, welcome. Hello.
Good evening.

Speaker 45 Which one of you drove a motorcycle into town?

Speaker 3 Neither of us.

Speaker 26 We drove a Hyundai Koda.

Speaker 15 That's right.

Speaker 57 You just yes-handed each other into love.

Speaker 2 Yes. Right, I see.

Speaker 46 And you left Chicago, and now you're here in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 65 You're Pittsburghites, I believe.

Speaker 13 That's right. Yes.

Speaker 17 I'm partial to the term Pittsburghander.

Speaker 78 Pittsburghander.

Speaker 15 Exactly. I think that's right.

Speaker 64 Have you ever been to our favorite restaurant, Eaton Park?

Speaker 17 I have. Really?

Speaker 1 We love and are familiar with that restaurant.

Speaker 34 Yes.

Speaker 17 It's world famous.

Speaker 22 Yeah. So who seeks justice in this, my fake court?

Speaker 13 I do, Your Honor.

Speaker 64 And what, Casey, what is the justice you seek?

Speaker 49 I seek her to admit that my sun tea is stronger, does not need to be better, but is at least stronger than her preferred brand of tea, which is just like a plastic bottle commercial brand tea that we buy at not Tubez Market, but Sam's Club.

Speaker 14 Okay, fine.

Speaker 1 You enjoy sun tea.

Speaker 13 I enjoy sun tea.

Speaker 7 For those of us who don't know, who have never seen the sun, what is sun tea?

Speaker 49 Rather than using hot water to brew the tea and then turning it into iced tea, you get a bunch of water, stick a bunch of tea bags in it, put that out on your porch for all day long

Speaker 9 in a container.

Speaker 15 In what kind of vessel, a garbage bag?

Speaker 55 I purchased a specific glass pitcher off of

Speaker 49 the internet website for it. Okay.

Speaker 40 You didn't try a garbage bag?

Speaker 73 You should try a garbage bag.

Speaker 13 I should. Yeah.

Speaker 17 Might be stronger.

Speaker 30 And Jesse, what's your...

Speaker 24 Wow.

Speaker 34 You're saying that Casey is weak tea.

Speaker 51 Tell me what your dispute is here.

Speaker 55 What's your beef?

Speaker 17 I just don't think that the sun makes the tea strong enough. Unless it's, I mean, maybe.

Speaker 14 What do you mean by strong?

Speaker 30 Like robust in flavor, caffinated enough?

Speaker 17 Robust in flavor. Like really packing that flavor punch.
Right. That a good tea has.

Speaker 1 Like the kind you get at Sam's Club.

Speaker 17 Exactly.

Speaker 30 And he's always trying to force you to drink his weak tea all the time.

Speaker 49 No.

Speaker 49 I offer it and I've tried to make it better each time and she gives me feedback, but it is still too weak for her.

Speaker 39 Casey, when Jesse was talking to our producer, Jennifer Marmor, she claimed that if it weren't for you, Casey, Jesse would be eating frozen grapes for dinner.

Speaker 41 It's true.

Speaker 13 It is true.

Speaker 9 Yes, very much.

Speaker 20 What do you mean by that?

Speaker 17 Before Casey came into my life,

Speaker 17 I don't like to cook.

Speaker 17 It's not for me.

Speaker 17 And so I would eat frozen grapes and I would cook.

Speaker 15 You won't even put tea bags into a garbage bag.

Speaker 45 That's too much for you.

Speaker 68 Gotta go to Sam's club.

Speaker 17 I would boil a tea, but that's not what we're here about.

Speaker 19 No, no, obviously.

Speaker 17 But I would also cut up tomatoes and cucumbers. I eat that a lot as well.

Speaker 17 I just, I don't like to cook, but this one really does.

Speaker 30 Well, since he has some expertise in the kitchen and in preparing foods, why don't you just accept his expertise with regard to tea?

Speaker 17 Because it's not expertise, unfortunately.

Speaker 51 What is the brand of your preferred iced tea since we're buzz marketing everything?

Speaker 17 The one that we have access to is Pure Leaf?

Speaker 15 Pure Leaf, yes. Pure Leaf.
Pure Leaf.

Speaker 52 Yes.

Speaker 13 The one you have access to?

Speaker 9 Well, because we're a sand.

Speaker 73 There's some sort of land blockade

Speaker 1 by the Pure Leaf Corporation.

Speaker 38 Hey, you want to hear, you need to do a local reference that everyone's going to love?

Speaker 37 All right. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 70 You ever, by the way, speaking of iced tea, you ever try an Arnold Palmer?

Speaker 37 Ooh.

Speaker 8 You know what it is?

Speaker 30 It's half iced tea, half a local regional airport.

Speaker 60 Arnold Palmer.

Speaker 57 I believe that we have taste tests that we can do here live on Sunday.

Speaker 8 We do, yes.

Speaker 34 I don't know why I'm not eating a sandwich covered in gravy right now instead of drinking tea.

Speaker 15 Well, here's Jennifer Marmor now.

Speaker 16 Move this out of the way.

Speaker 1 There's our engineer, Matthew Barnard.

Speaker 10 Matthew Barnard is here.

Speaker 18 I've been handed an envelope with, it says tea answers because it's a blind taste test.

Speaker 30 So it looks to me like these, the teas are separated by height of glass, correct?

Speaker 48 So this is one of these is sun tea.

Speaker 39 One of these is your preferred brand of Sam's Club bottled tea Pureleaf, right?

Speaker 17 That's correct. All right.

Speaker 19 Sponsor Judge John Hodgman, Pureleaf, please. And

Speaker 43 I'm noticing a difference in color.

Speaker 47 One of the tall glass ones, the high balls here, are a little lighter in color, but I'm not going to, other than that, I'm just going to drink.

Speaker 43 Do you want to try some, Jesse?

Speaker 1 I'd love to try some of this delicious tea.

Speaker 45 Let's try this one first.

Speaker 1 By the way, Tea Answers is also an infomercial I watched late last night on ESPN.

Speaker 13 And cheers.

Speaker 30 Well, that was refreshing.

Speaker 1 Tastes like tea.

Speaker 78 Tastes like tea, doesn't it?

Speaker 72 Here, you can give that back to me.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 15 And I'm going to hand to you

Speaker 13 a tall glass

Speaker 45 of brand X.

Speaker 1 So this one, I'm going to say, is a little fruitier, a little like more acidic, and a little less bitter.

Speaker 58 It tastes like tea to me.

Speaker 20 Well, that's interesting because if I had to guess, the one on the left in the tieball glass is probably the sun tea.

Speaker 1 I'm going to say the tall one is the Coke and the short one's the Pepsi.

Speaker 45 I will say that off your hands.

Speaker 49 The Pure Leaf is a Pepsi product.

Speaker 38 Okay.

Speaker 34 Let's go easy now with the Pork Leaf.

Speaker 2 Too many brands. Too many Too many brands.

Speaker 1 The Snap O lady is here tonight.

Speaker 20 Thank you, PNC Bank, for sponsoring Judge John Hoffman.

Speaker 77 And guess what, everybody in the world?

Speaker 1 I was wrong.

Speaker 61 I thought for sure.

Speaker 15 Hold on, because I don't know.

Speaker 59 I think the tall one.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 1 Because it's less bitter, I'm going to say the tall one is the sun tea.

Speaker 58 Me too.

Speaker 23 That's what I would have said because when I read a long article by Kenji Lopez Alt, Friend of the Court, Friend of the Court about sun tea, he was like, the reason that people make it is it tends to be lighter and less acidic and less bitter than tea that is boiled and then come to be cool.

Speaker 20 So it's a lighter, more refreshing thing.

Speaker 30 Kenji also says, by the way, Casey, if you brew sun tea out in the sun, it's an invitation to bacterial infection.

Speaker 51 And if you put a bunch of tea leaves into a glass container and just put it in the fridge for hours, it'll taste exactly the same and it'll be safe to drink.

Speaker 40 So I don't know. Ha.

Speaker 66 Yeah.

Speaker 15 I'm not saying Kenji says this is going to happen.

Speaker 30 He's just saying there is a risk of it happening.

Speaker 9 And he's a semi-scientist.

Speaker 40 That's true.

Speaker 45 In any case, Kenji Lopez alt said that the sun tea tends to be lighter, less acidic, and so forth. But when I open up the tea answers here, it

Speaker 45 says to me here that the tall glass is pure leaf by PepsiCo, and the short glass is sun tea, which is a real reversal because I felt that the short class was much stronger.

Speaker 14 I thought the same thing.

Speaker 61 Yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 Collusion.

Speaker 3 See, I'm sorry.

Speaker 14 I have the tea answers right here. Do you want to see them?

Speaker 50 I trust you, but yes.

Speaker 13 All right.

Speaker 30 I mean, I think that my judgment is very clear in this case because I believe that the sun tea is stronger, more flavorful, more delicious than your PepsiCo product.

Speaker 15 But the real question is, which one of these is roofy?

Speaker 8 This is the sound of a gap.

Speaker 1 Judge John Hodgkin rules that is all. Sorry about that, Jesse.

Speaker 16 That's quite all right.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Casey and Jesse.

Speaker 84 You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years. And

Speaker 84 maybe you stopped listening for a while. Maybe you never listened.
And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years. I know where this has ended up.

Speaker 86 But no, no, you would be wrong. We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Speaker 84 Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works. The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

Speaker 86 We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening. And if not, we just leave it out back.

Speaker 86 It goes rotten.

Speaker 84 So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 87 All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show. Let's learn everything.
So let's do a quick progress check. Have we learned about quantum physics?

Speaker 88 Yes, episode 59.

Speaker 87 We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we? Yes, we have. Same episode, actually.

Speaker 88 Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Speaker 37 Episode 64.

Speaker 87 So how close are we to learning everything?

Speaker 87 Bad news. We still haven't learned everything yet.

Speaker 44 Oh, we're ruined.

Speaker 87 No, no, no. It's good news as well.
There is still a lot to learn.

Speaker 85 Woo! I'm Dr. Ella Hubber.
I'm regular Tom Long.

Speaker 87 I'm Caroline Roper. And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

Speaker 87 And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Speaker 75 Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Speaker 1 Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. And a friend of our program, indeed, a regular contributor to our program, has an amazing new book that everybody needs to check out.

Speaker 4 We're talking about guest bailiff Gene Gray, a singer, actor, comedian, fashion icon,

Speaker 4 and puppeteer. I mean, literal puppeteer of puppets, not just humans, but Gene does help steer you to your best life, as you will discover if you read.
Gene's memoir, In My Remaining Years.

Speaker 4 I say that name again, In My Remaining Years. It is a hilarious, moving, and very wise memoir of a very, very specific and inspired life

Speaker 4 and learning to change your life when you're older, phases of life from growing up in the Chelsea Hotel to traveling all around the world as one of the most renowned underground rap artists

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Speaker 4 I just finished reading it and I love it very much. So please support Gene Gray and go and support yourself by going out and pre-ordering In My Remaining Years by Gene Gray.

Speaker 4 And here's my advanced reading copy of it. I'm going to show it to the camera right now.
There it is. And there's Gene right there on the cover with that wonderful photo by Mindy Tucker.

Speaker 4 It's incredible. Flatiron Books presents In My Remaining Years by Gene Gray.
Go get it.

Speaker 1 I want to mention that on my NPR show, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, we've had some really cool guests lately. Go check out our interviews with Stanley Tucci

Speaker 1 and Adam Scott and this week, Mike Lee, who I believe is the greatest living filmmaker

Speaker 1 for me anyway.

Speaker 1 Just a true genius now in his 80s, as sharp as ever, and incredible stories and just incredible insights about creating art.

Speaker 1 So go search for Bullseye with Jesse Thorne in your podcast app and hit subscribe. Let's get back to the case.

Speaker 1 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, are you ready for mega justice? Mega Justice.

Speaker 1 Let's bring out our litigants.

Speaker 10 Please welcome to the stage Michael and Bae.

Speaker 1 Tonight's case, the Pegacorn Brief. Michael brings the case against his daughter, Bae.
Since childhood, Bae has insisted that unicorns can have wings.

Speaker 1 Michael says Bae needs to grow up and stop dreaming.

Speaker 1 A unicorn is a horse with a horn.

Speaker 67 Period.

Speaker 1 Only Pegasi can fly.

Speaker 1 Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Speaker 10 From one to another,

Speaker 30 another to one, a mark of one's destiny, singled out alone, fulfilled.

Speaker 61 From all of us together, together, we are friends.

Speaker 30 With the marks of our destinies made one,

Speaker 45 there is magic without end.

Speaker 32 Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the little tigans in.

Speaker 1 Michael and Bay, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth? The whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever.

Speaker 13 I do.

Speaker 17 Yes.

Speaker 1 Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has wings?

Speaker 21 Yes.

Speaker 39 Yes.

Speaker 1 Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Speaker 12 Michael and Bay, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Speaker 19 Can either of you identify the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Speaker 20 Oh, I see, Michael, you're nodding along.

Speaker 45 So why don't you guess first?

Speaker 1 Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

Speaker 12 Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

Speaker 15 Is that actually a movie?

Speaker 39 Yes.

Speaker 17 It's actually a YouTube video.

Speaker 59 A YouTube video.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 50 All right.

Speaker 1 Well, Charlie the Unicorn, the movie, is a YouTube video.

Speaker 41 Yes.

Speaker 17 Some creative liberties were taken with the movie part.

Speaker 50 Okay, I see.

Speaker 6 I'm sorry I didn't hear about that, Pittsburgh.

Speaker 70 I'm writing it down, though, in the guest book here.

Speaker 39 There we go.

Speaker 19 Charlie the Unicorn, the movie.

Speaker 9 He's not a Ginzer.

Speaker 39 All right, Michael.

Speaker 70 You settle down.

Speaker 58 You didn't have a ticket yesterday.

Speaker 13 Just relax.

Speaker 36 True enough.

Speaker 56 All right, Bae, do you have a guess as well?

Speaker 17 I would like to guess Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

Speaker 41 How about another one?

Speaker 5 No, that's all I have.

Speaker 14 Charlie the Unicorn again.

Speaker 15 All guesses are wrong.

Speaker 64 Of course, that

Speaker 15 is the spell that was cast by Star Swirl, the the bearded, in My Little Pony Friendship is Magic at season three, episode 13,

Speaker 14 wherein the unicorn Twilight Sparkle grows wings and a new word is coined for this magical creature in the My Little Pony verse called a what peg.

Speaker 17 That would be an alicorn.

Speaker 78 Alicorn is correct.

Speaker 65 This,

Speaker 39 an alicorn,

Speaker 10 is a horned pegasus.

Speaker 14 There are other terms, of course.

Speaker 46 There is

Speaker 1 the Unipeg.

Speaker 64 There's the Unisus.

Speaker 1 Unipeg is the one that Dan Savage coined.

Speaker 58 And, of course, the pegacorn is another name for it.

Speaker 15 And by the way, this is classical mythology we're talking about. This episode aired in 2013.

Speaker 63 So yet, Michael, you deny.

Speaker 30 And you say that an alicorn doesn't even exist.

Speaker 48 Is that what you are?

Speaker 8 I see.

Speaker 34 So I mentioned earlier, Michael, that you didn't have a ticket yesterday. Yes.

Speaker 19 And in fact, apparently, you and I have met before. Yes, we have.
What were the circumstances?

Speaker 50 Well, I was on the Ocean City boardwalk with my family.

Speaker 52 Down the shore.

Speaker 27 Lovely daughter Bay.

Speaker 20 When was this?

Speaker 89 I'm going to say 2006, 2008, something like that.

Speaker 34 Yeah, the height of Hodgemania on the OC boards.

Speaker 47 Yes.

Speaker 29 Good times. And what happened?

Speaker 90 Was also the height of PC versus Mac.

Speaker 19 I have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker 90 And I I had a very fond connection to the PC version, unfortunately.

Speaker 27 But

Speaker 53 when I'm

Speaker 9 right here.

Speaker 28 I don't care.

Speaker 3 I don't care.

Speaker 11 Hold on. Where's Justin Wall?

Speaker 41 No.

Speaker 20 Don't give them hope.

Speaker 90 But I saw Judge John Hodgman and family on the boardwalk.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and this is a great time to approach a guy.

Speaker 62 I could not control myself.

Speaker 83 I was so excited.

Speaker 62 I love you, man.

Speaker 41 I remember.

Speaker 28 You do?

Speaker 45 I do.

Speaker 15 I remember that walk down the Ocean City boardwalk with my, sorry, Philadelphia family.

Speaker 41 That's right.

Speaker 30 And

Speaker 30 that was the summer of those ads.

Speaker 30 And all of a sudden, lots of people were coming at me. I'd never experienced anything like it.

Speaker 23 And of all of them, you made me the least uncomfortable.

Speaker 62 Well, thank you. That's right.

Speaker 90 After all these years of hearing about obnoxious fans, I was really concerned I was one of those people.

Speaker 70 Well, but then you wrote me saying, I don't have tickets to your show.

Speaker 3 Well, that's true, too.

Speaker 33 But I've got a dispute with my daughter, Bae.

Speaker 42 Yes.

Speaker 30 And so my question to you, is this dispute real or did you make it up in order to stalk me again?

Speaker 28 Oh, it's absolutely real.

Speaker 13 All right.

Speaker 82 Bae, when did you start dreaming of unicorns that could fly?

Speaker 17 I've been dreaming for so long. Probably, you know, around those years when I was just loving horses and fantastical, whimsical things.
Sure. So I was about five then.

Speaker 5 So let's say around four.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 65 Okay. That's fine.

Speaker 82 And when did you start dreaming specifically about a unicorn with wings?

Speaker 38 Do you remember?

Speaker 17 I don't know. I mean, not I can't place it precisely, but

Speaker 17 that day actually that we met you.

Speaker 74 Yeah.

Speaker 17 I'm so sorry. I don't remember meeting you, but I do remember we stopped in a little shop.

Speaker 55 I'm deeply offended.

Speaker 73 Well, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 There was just a long string of people on the boardwalk that your dad yelled, I love you.

Speaker 73 He's a lover.

Speaker 33 Frankly, I'm glad that you survived the embarrassment of your father yelling.

Speaker 17 Well, I had to help me to get me through it. We went into a little shop and I purchased and found a hermit crab with a painted shell featuring a winged unicorn.
So that

Speaker 17 same day,

Speaker 33 that very day

Speaker 3 that you remember meeting me.

Speaker 5 I have to do that. Remember the hermit crab, but not John Hodgman.

Speaker 34 I understand. That's fair.

Speaker 74 Well, the hermit crab came first.

Speaker 14 Oh, it was already in.

Speaker 26 Right.

Speaker 17 So you could have met it.

Speaker 28 I might have met. I'm sure he did.

Speaker 30 And the deal on the Ocean City Boardwalk is that

Speaker 15 I'm not sure if you know this.

Speaker 82 It's one of the biggest hermit crab markets in the Eastern Seaboard.

Speaker 27 Oh, really?

Speaker 42 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 43 And the deal is the hermit crab comes free with the cage.

Speaker 73 You're buying the cage.

Speaker 15 It's like McDonald's. They're in real estate.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean?

Speaker 15 They're in the hermit crab cage business. Yes.

Speaker 23 And what was the name of your hermit crab?

Speaker 17 I do not know. I don't know if you name hermit crabs, but...

Speaker 19 Well, young John Hodgman certainly did.

Speaker 37 Oh, wow.

Speaker 13 Krabby and Shelly.

Speaker 17 Well, that's better than anything I came up with.

Speaker 23 Did your hermit crabs chirp at night and make weird noises?

Speaker 17 No, I think just yours.

Speaker 43 Did your hermit crabs escape and then die behind the radiator?

Speaker 45 What? Your hermit crabs died behind the radiator?

Speaker 21 Yeah.

Speaker 1 My frog died in the back of the closet. We lost him.
His name was Boutros Boutros Froggy.

Speaker 1 He got out of the aquarium and we didn't know where he was until we found him like six months later in the back of the closet, completely desiccated.

Speaker 77 There was definitely a very hermity-crabby smell that permeated my room when Shelly and Krabby

Speaker 15 They escaped.

Speaker 50 I got that. Yeah.

Speaker 69 Do you remember your hermit crab dying?

Speaker 17 No, but I remember a lot of times thinking it had died and it had really just molted and then it would be like naked in its cage in a very scary way.

Speaker 61 That's a terrifying thing.

Speaker 33 And did you provide it with a larger shell to move into?

Speaker 17 Yes, I did. And I was

Speaker 15 a very conscientious hermit crab, but

Speaker 50 it was a little bit corn on the new larger shell.

Speaker 15 So it would recognize itself in America.

Speaker 35 Sorry, I interrupted.

Speaker 51 You were saying, I'd just like to say.

Speaker 17 I would just like to say, don't buy those. And hermit crabs should not have painted shells.

Speaker 13 Yeah, no, it's terrible. Yeah, it's very

Speaker 19 not an industry you want to support. Not like

Speaker 19 all 10 locations of Eaton Park here in Halloween.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 15 Pittsburgh. Avalon.

Speaker 38 McKnight Road North.

Speaker 19 McKnight Road South.

Speaker 11 I think you missed

Speaker 17 my Eaton Park.

Speaker 30 Which was it?

Speaker 64 South Hills?

Speaker 83 Was it Penn Hills Village?

Speaker 15 Oh, no, Penn Hills, South Hills Village.

Speaker 78 No.

Speaker 65 Dormont, I said.

Speaker 14 Whitehall.

Speaker 5 Freeport Road and Adrona Heights.

Speaker 13 Oh,

Speaker 48 that wasn't on the website. Maybe it's a new one.

Speaker 67 No. No.

Speaker 9 How did I come around a loser on this again?

Speaker 78 Didn't you hear me say?

Speaker 1 I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne from the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 41 Whenever I want old school liver and onions,

Speaker 20 I think I look, I would absolutely do a live ad read for Eaton Park, and they should sponsor Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 16 Woo-hoo!

Speaker 6 If I, we don't, look, we got to fly away tomorrow.

Speaker 30 We should, I mean, I we planned this wrong because we're in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 15 Beautiful Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 6 Home to not one but two incline railroads, Jesse.

Speaker 1 Two funicular towns.

Speaker 68 This town put the nicular in funicular.

Speaker 6 And then I could get liver and onions.

Speaker 30 We just made a terrible mistake.

Speaker 52 We're going to have to come back.

Speaker 67 But meanwhile, yes.

Speaker 30 Meanwhile, we're here in the present talking about the past.

Speaker 40 Yes.

Speaker 45 So on the show, you don't remember what you named this.

Speaker 17 No, I do not. No.

Speaker 51 But

Speaker 19 did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you showed the shell that had the unicorn with the body?

Speaker 17 And joy and whimsy. I felt a lot of things.

Speaker 64 And here, after all, Michael was proof that an alicorn exists, right?

Speaker 14 Why do you deny it even further?

Speaker 90 Well, it's just a unicorn somebody painted wings on.

Speaker 67 You're right.

Speaker 21 You're right.

Speaker 25 I'm sorry.

Speaker 45 I'm like the real-life animal.

Speaker 24 And we were

Speaker 28 happy

Speaker 50 to get there.

Speaker 30 It was a flight of fancy, of imagination,

Speaker 9 rather than the real-life animal of a unicorn or Pegasus.

Speaker 38 Bae, do you have any more examples of unicorns with wings?

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 17 Actually, funny enough.

Speaker 73 Here's a dead hermit crab in my purse.

Speaker 17 Before this all started, we had some time. So we headed on next door so I could buy a little toy from the bookstore.
And what did we find but a whole collection of winged unicorns?

Speaker 59 Winged unicorns at Poseman Books next door.

Speaker 8 See, I know some things.

Speaker 40 That's delightful.

Speaker 15 I'm just going to hold on to it for a moment to examine it.

Speaker 64 Seems to be absolutely real, very material,

Speaker 20 not a

Speaker 30 young person's flight of fancy, but a very real thing.

Speaker 81 Jesse, would you like to touch my alicorn?

Speaker 15 You're an adult daughter.

Speaker 45 I am. And what's going on in your life?

Speaker 17 I just graduated from Allegheny College.

Speaker 14 Congratulations.

Speaker 16 Thank you.

Speaker 60 And

Speaker 17 now I'm unemployed.

Speaker 1 Yay.

Speaker 13 So.

Speaker 23 Maybe we can help

Speaker 30 connect you with a job.

Speaker 20 What kind of work are you looking for?

Speaker 17 I'm environmental science, specifically environmental justice and urban planning.

Speaker 21 No future in that.

Speaker 24 Right, right.

Speaker 17 And even worse.

Speaker 78 With a focus on crab desiccation.

Speaker 17 Yeah, and then an art minor.

Speaker 13 Congratulations.

Speaker 3 That's wonderful.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 29 You must be very proud, my child of your buddy daughter.

Speaker 61 I'm very proud.

Speaker 46 So why are you trying to keep her down?

Speaker 43 Why are you trying to destroy her hopes and dreams?

Speaker 74 You know, as a dad, it's my job to explain to her how things are.

Speaker 27 Of course.

Speaker 22 Perhaps that was once true, but now she's an adult.

Speaker 68 Right. Well, that's true.

Speaker 65 Show me the evidence.

Speaker 28 So here we are.

Speaker 1 Okay, we do have some evidence here.

Speaker 46 Aside from this physical evidence.

Speaker 65 Oh, look at this.

Speaker 17 Tell me that's not real.

Speaker 67 That the records show.

Speaker 15 Obviously, these images will be available on our show page at maximumfund.org and as well as on our Instagram page at Judge John Hodgman.

Speaker 56 And what we're looking at here is obviously real photographic evidence of

Speaker 78 a calicorn or a Unipeg, as it were.

Speaker 15 A peg of corn is a beautiful, a beautiful illustration.

Speaker 46 Next slide, please.

Speaker 29 Look at this.

Speaker 77 The title of the book is Unicorn Wings.

Speaker 45 And not only does this unicorn have a horn and wings, but also a beard,

Speaker 33 much like our motorcyclist Lee had earlier in the program.

Speaker 10 A long white beard.

Speaker 65 Michael, this is a book.

Speaker 27 A what?

Speaker 65 This is a book.

Speaker 62 How can you deny the existence of an alicorn when you see it's on the cover of a book?

Speaker 20 Or would you rather burn this book

Speaker 30 in order in order to keep the world

Speaker 1 in order to restrict knowledge and keep the world the way you want it to be in Michael's defense Judge Hodgman he's still on reading step one

Speaker 50 that's not a history book or a biology book or

Speaker 29 oh you read it

Speaker 67 no I'm only on one

Speaker 38 Michael what makes a unicorn or a Pegasus real and an alicorn not real

Speaker 15 well I had never heard of the term alicorn oh then it must not exist

Speaker 11 exactly dad hasn't heard of it certainly not a unicorn no it is

Speaker 17 if you were to make an argument that might be let's say persuasive or convincing how about if I said it wasn't a unicorn was an alicorn no no no because on the Wikipedia page for alicorns thank you

Speaker 17 They are described as a unicorn with wings. Very specifically not a horse with wings and a horn, but they are a subgenre of unicorn.

Speaker 67 That's right.

Speaker 91 When Carl Linnaeus was making the taxonomy of species.

Speaker 1 I think our dispute predates Wikipedia.

Speaker 50 Does it? Nothing predates Wikipedia.

Speaker 41 Is your contention

Speaker 42 content?

Speaker 40 Oh, you sweet summer child.

Speaker 1 Next thing you know, you'll be describing telephones tied to ropes.

Speaker 70 I just want to call back to a moment earlier when we were talking about the series of ads for Apple Computer that I was in

Speaker 61 when they shrugged,

Speaker 69 shrugged with the most in the most emoji of shrugs, in the most withering way, as to say, I don't care about that.

Speaker 27 You're dead already.

Speaker 9 Those were great commercials.

Speaker 3 All right, weirdo.

Speaker 28 Back off.

Speaker 66 We're not in Ocean Ocean City anymore.

Speaker 18 Is your contention that

Speaker 33 because a unicorn and or a Pegasus are more established mythological creatures in culture,

Speaker 82 in ancient cultures and contemporary culture,

Speaker 45 that they have more validity than the winged unicorn, sometimes called an alicorn?

Speaker 90 Honestly, before I say that I never heard of an alicorn.

Speaker 74 So to me,

Speaker 90 it just began as Bae

Speaker 74 wishing that they were

Speaker 78 just wanting to kill my dreams.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, this is what you're coming to.

Speaker 63 I offered you the same way.

Speaker 57 I offered you a persuasive argument.

Speaker 46 The same way that now I was prepared to shut that down, but it was not good.

Speaker 33 It was a line of argument that could have persuaded somebody, but instead, you are just holding fast to the idea that starting when your daughter was four or five, what was important was that you be right

Speaker 59 and she be wrong.

Speaker 90 I didn't want her to cross the road.

Speaker 14 Evidence of the Hermit Grab Shell notwithstanding.

Speaker 13 Sorry, what were you saying?

Speaker 17 I just giggled.

Speaker 40 No, no, no, I was talking to your dad.

Speaker 13 Okay, but you looked right at me.

Speaker 3 I apologize.

Speaker 90 As a dad, I was just trying to tell her how the world was.

Speaker 90 Look both ways before you cross the road.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's reasonable.

Speaker 24 And so it's the same thing.

Speaker 78 Because cars exist.

Speaker 15 But, I mean, do you look both ways before you cross the yellow brick road?

Speaker 21 No, you don't cross the yellow brick road.

Speaker 66 You follow me.

Speaker 26 No, no, it crosses you.

Speaker 30 Has your dad always been trying to suppress your imagination?

Speaker 17 Yes.

Speaker 9 Any other examples?

Speaker 17 No, I was just actually lying. He does not do that,

Speaker 17 which is why this is just such an odd hill to die on.

Speaker 7 How does it make you feel?

Speaker 15 And maybe a more important question.

Speaker 48 How did it make you feel for your dad to deny the existence of a mythical creature that you enjoyed thinking about?

Speaker 17 I think it didn't make me feel too saddened. I've always had, been pretty sure of myself.
So I think I, if anything, maybe just felt bad for him that

Speaker 50 this...

Speaker 17 At this age, I was already aware of my childlike wonder and how lost it was on him.

Speaker 48 Do you have any siblings?

Speaker 14 I have a little brother.

Speaker 48 And does he has his imagination been crushed by your dad?

Speaker 39 Yes. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 28 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Poor kid.

Speaker 1 Babe, do you know what it's like to be a dad?

Speaker 1 To know that you're dying atop any hill you stand astride.

Speaker 17 I don't know what it's like to be a dad, but

Speaker 17 I hope I never will.

Speaker 69 How would, if you were to become a parent,

Speaker 61 if you were to have a kid or have to care for a kid,

Speaker 38 how would you approach things differently with regard to imagination compared to your dad?

Speaker 17 I would say, oh, you know what? That is such a good point. Perception is reality.
If you think that critter exists, anything you can dream is real. Horses can have wings and be alicorns.

Speaker 17 We'll get you all the hermit crabs you want.

Speaker 36 That's what I have to do.

Speaker 72 I think that's a really good parenting approach.

Speaker 28 Thank you.

Speaker 18 Why didn't you choose that approach?

Speaker 61 I mean, you say it is to tell her how the world is.

Speaker 68 Right.

Speaker 69 What were you really trying to do here?

Speaker 90 I didn't want people to make fun of her. If she walked around thinking that unicorns had wings, I mean, she might be...

Speaker 43 You might look silly.

Speaker 8 I think I've heard everything I need to inform.

Speaker 13 I've been picked on in school.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Speaker 19 I'll be going into my chambers now.

Speaker 38 I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Speaker 1 Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Speaker 1 Bae, how are you feeling right now about your chances in the case?

Speaker 17 I feel pretty good. I don't think he has much of an argument.

Speaker 65 So,

Speaker 17 yeah. And I have a real winged unicorn right there.

Speaker 1 What other animals do you think could have wings potentially? Hmm.

Speaker 44 Birds.

Speaker 11 Now, that's a good one. That's one I haven't thought of.

Speaker 1 I got to hand you that one, babe.

Speaker 1 Michael, how are you feeling about your chances?

Speaker 11 Well, I felt really

Speaker 1 good coming in, but why was that?

Speaker 28 And that calicorn.

Speaker 17 I told you to do research. I did.

Speaker 50 I looked up unicorn.

Speaker 90 Every single time, it said the same thing.

Speaker 74 A horse with one horn.

Speaker 65 It has that, too.

Speaker 50 That's it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he returns. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Speaker 30 The year was 2006.

Speaker 30 Arguably the apex of my life.

Speaker 70 I was walking down the boardwalk, deciding to go to Preps, Not Manco, and Manco.

Speaker 13 Oh, you don't know that local reference?

Speaker 14 You monsters.

Speaker 74 Mac and Manco back then.

Speaker 70 Back then it was Mac and Manco.

Speaker 81 Thank you for getting in the way of my virgin.

Speaker 22 Thank you for correcting me.

Speaker 30 Thank you for keeping me from being teased in the schoolyard, Dad.

Speaker 58 And while you were accosting me,

Speaker 20 and I was assuredly loving it, thank you for seeing me.

Speaker 81 It is a gift when you are seen by someone, and that was very nice.

Speaker 30 In the meantime, your daughter was imagining a fantasy, a fantasy of unicorns with wings, a fantasy that you had already tried to suppress in her, and yet she found in a remarkable moment of magical realism on the boardwalk, proof of concept in this hermit crab shell.

Speaker 19 And even then, you tried to deny the reality of what was before her very eyes.

Speaker 29 This was 2006, a full seven years before Twilight Sparkle became an alicorn.

Speaker 51 I just want to make sure I get that right before I get letters.

Speaker 15 I was right, Twilight Sparkle

Speaker 30 became a winged unicorn on My Little Pony, Friendship is Magic, and introduced the alicorn to the world, or did it?

Speaker 12 If you had made the argument that, that, for example,

Speaker 72 Pegasi and unicorns have been around in sort of popular imagination for hundreds, if not thousands of years, that might have been an argument.

Speaker 30 It was like, well, there is an established mythological creature.

Speaker 51 What you're thinking about is just a dumb cartoon from just a few years ago or a few years in the future.

Speaker 82 You didn't know.

Speaker 57 Your daughter was seeing into the future.

Speaker 39 You see what I'm saying?

Speaker 57 But in fact, she was also channeling the past because I would have said, what, sir, about the Ethiopian Pegasus?

Speaker 15 Aha!

Speaker 54 Thank you very much.

Speaker 15 One person in the front row understands what I'm talking about.

Speaker 30 Who observed the so-called horned, winged horse and called it the Ethiopian Pegasus, if I may ask? Do you know?

Speaker 57 Pliny the Elder.

Speaker 43 Pliny the Elder in the first century AD.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 it became

Speaker 57 common of medieval bestiaries hundreds of years later and for hundreds of years.

Speaker 1 The winged unicorn, Michael, is a thing.

Speaker 27 Woo!

Speaker 60 Of course it is.

Speaker 61 Of course it is.

Speaker 43 Of course it's a thing.

Speaker 48 Oh, you're giving that winged unicorn to him as a peace offering?

Speaker 17 No, just comfort. I want it back.

Speaker 27 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 89 I can get some magic off of it.

Speaker 14 Yeah, stop rubbing that alicorn for a second because my verdict isn't over because I need you to hear something.

Speaker 23 Now, look. I understand

Speaker 52 that

Speaker 38 when parents are parents of younger children, right,

Speaker 19 that sometimes

Speaker 20 you want to make sure that they're getting the right.

Speaker 55 I can't justify what you were doing.

Speaker 22 Your wonderful daughter came up with something, a flight of fancy in her head, and you told her, no, you're going to be made fun of.

Speaker 13 If you ever tell anyone that unicorns have wings, you're going to be a pariah.

Speaker 3 Now,

Speaker 43 maybe that's true in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 56 It's easy, apparently, to become a pariah in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 24 One wrong step,

Speaker 77 and you're yeeted into the Monongahela.

Speaker 64 But in real life, sir, that is to say, life outside of Pittsburgh.

Speaker 27 Wow.

Speaker 14 May I, I apologize, see now I'm a pariah with you too.

Speaker 50 Well, I always was because I'm old and you're young.

Speaker 36 But

Speaker 22 may I ask you to consider

Speaker 30 on this stage, you wanted to protect your daughter from being made fun of.

Speaker 41 And yet who has been the object of ridicule from the moment you stepped foot on stage?

Speaker 80 Oh, it didn't feel that way.

Speaker 15 I don't know what you were thinking when you were the parent of a young child, but as a parent of an old child, it feels good.

Speaker 65 It feels fun sometimes

Speaker 82 to get your adult child's goat, a non-mythical creature, and to annoy them in order to get a response from you because they are growing in the world and leaving you behind.

Speaker 66 That is the hard truth.

Speaker 43 Sorry, I'm going to suppress your.

Speaker 48 I want to suppress your imagination and bring you to some home truths here.

Speaker 21 I'm living it.

Speaker 42 Yeah.

Speaker 66 Karma.

Speaker 19 And yet, then and now, what you should do with your child when he or she or they comes up with something wonderful and eventually will become a major part of my little pony IP.

Speaker 65 That's very far-sighted.

Speaker 14 You celebrate that imagination.

Speaker 20 You don't tamp it down.

Speaker 14 After all, you know, there's nothing more magical than an alicorn or a you know, whatever it is, than perhaps your own kid.

Speaker 39 So

Speaker 19 what is the, what is the name of that creature that you're holding right now?

Speaker 17 Like, you want me to assign it a name?

Speaker 52 Sorry, maybe that's very old thing.

Speaker 5 I just met him.

Speaker 17 I don't know yet. All right.
What's like a sushi-based name?

Speaker 70 I mean, it does look like he's made out of shrimp sushi.

Speaker 17 There's a little sushi platter and a little cat of like a little lucky cat.

Speaker 65 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 40 Yeah, I do.

Speaker 1 This is an amazing bookstore. They got ice cream, too.

Speaker 37 Yeah.

Speaker 65 Is it Poseman Books?

Speaker 33 Is that it? Yeah.

Speaker 17 I also got this sunny angel.

Speaker 17 And then here's the little cat.

Speaker 29 The little

Speaker 2 color.

Speaker 39 This is wonderful.

Speaker 33 Are you sure you're going to want to bat this out of your daughter's hand and tell her to grow up?

Speaker 21 Not at all.

Speaker 80 Grow up and get real Bae.

Speaker 41 And

Speaker 26 there. It's not a cat.
It's too small.

Speaker 90 It looks delicious.

Speaker 91 I order you to apologize to Bae on stage and say whatever's on your mind, something along the lines of keep dreaming, unicorns have wings.

Speaker 40 May I hear you say it, please?

Speaker 90 Bae, keep your same wonderful, whimsical spirit.

Speaker 74 Unicorns have wings. Woo!

Speaker 91 This is the sound of a gavel.

Speaker 16 Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Speaker 1 Michael and Bae, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 1 That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks to Reddit user PyScuffle for naming this week's episode.
Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Speaker 1 We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. And if you're on Blue Sky, we're up on Blue Sky now at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Speaker 4 And I should note that after the show, litigant Lee wrote in with an update. He actually followed through with my ruling.

Speaker 4 He ate Eaton Park's shredded pot roast sandwich covered in gravy with his bare hands, and he got it all on video.

Speaker 4 He did an incredible job not making a complete mess, but he also did an incredible job making a small mess. So check that out on our Instagram at judgejohnhodgman and

Speaker 4 wherever you see little videos from us.

Speaker 1 The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode recorded by Matthew Barnard.
Our new social media producer is Dan Telfer, A.J. McKeon.

Speaker 1 Our podcast editor, Daniel Speer, is our video producer. Our producer, of course, the ever-capable Jennifer Marmor.
We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Speaker 4 You might talk to them next time. I'll talk to Jin's next time.

Speaker 28 Pittsburgh.

Speaker 20 Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows.

Speaker 88 Supported directly by you.