Until Death Drew You Art

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I am Bailiff Jesse Thorne with me, Judge John Hodgman.

And this week's episode was recorded live in Washington, D.C.

What an incredible night we had in our nation's capital.

It was such a fun show, such an incredible audience.

The disputes were amazing, including one about an extremely creepy baby portrait.

Check out the socials to see a picture of it.

Plus, we had two tremendous friends of the court on stage with us.

That's right, Linda Linda Holmes and your occasional guest bailiff, Gene Gray.

Now, Linda and Jean have something in common.

They're friends of the court.

We love them so much.

They're brilliant geniuses, but they also have something specific in common.

They both have a book coming out this year.

In fact, in the next few months, Linda's newest novel is called Back After This, and it comes out on February 25th.

And Jean's collection of personal essays is called In My Remaining Years, and it comes out March 18th.

I have read an advanced copy of both books, and they're both incredible.

So you should go ahead and pre-order them right now, wherever you get your books.

Why not try your local bookseller or bookshop.org or books or magic, or go ahead and put it on a hold in your local library.

Support these incredible geniuses who came to our stage now.

Let's go to the stage at 6th and I in Washington, D.C.

People of Washington, D.C., you asked us for live justice and we are here to deliver it.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's bring out our first case.

Please welcome to the stage Lauren and Jeff.

Lauren and Jeff.

Jeff is a civil engineer.

His wife Lauren works in the Library of Congress and does cosplay in her spare time.

Some time ago, Jeff gave his wife Lauren a backseat driver's license as a joke, but now he wants to revoke it.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Lauren and Jeff, welcome to the courtroom.

Lauren, cosplay, you say.

Now, since

I'm wondering, are you actually a librarian or is that just your Judge John Hodgman fan cosplay?

So I am actually a librarian, but I work for the copyright office as a librarian.

So it's a little niche.

That's a wild woo from the audience

for the concept of copyright.

In the parlance of Richard Scarey, what do you do all day?

My normal work is to bother publishers and tell them that they have not sent in their required copies that they are supposed to be sending in.

and making lists of books from publishers, books and other things, movies.

And if publishers are not compliant in sending in the required required copies of their books for the library of congress are you authorized to get into some like Lara Croft cosplay and go sneak into Penguin Random House and get what you need

we wished we could

I understand you can't tell your secrets that's fine are you authorized to send Woody Woodpecker cartoons directly to VHS companies that sell in drugstores

no we just send nasty letters well Lauren you seek justice in this fake court is that correct I do what is the nature of the justice you seek?

What is a backseat driver's license?

Well, it's a license that is, well, I mean, it's kind of a fake driver's license, but it says backseat driver's license on it, and it allows you to pester the person that's driving.

And Jeff.

Yes.

Hello.

Hi.

Welcome to the show.

You gave Lauren a backseat driver's license.

Yeah.

Where did you find a backseat driver's license to give?

Did you make it yourself or is it something you bought?

No, I I either got it when I was in middle school at a garage sale

or I had to think back.

It's either that or just after graduating high school, my friends and I went down to Florida and stopped at South of the Border on the way.

Sure.

It's a very giant

junk store with all sorts of junk.

And I probably saw it there and saw this, said, this is stupid.

Let me get it.

So either middle school or high school.

Yeah.

And you are

an adult now, Shelby.

Yes, Yes.

Well, John, the point here is that no matter when and where he got it, he got it in 1962.

So when you were in middle school or high school, you were at a garage sale or a junk shop and you found this and you looked at it and you go, hmm, someday I shall be married.

And you put it in your pocket.

Yes.

To save for a rainy day.

And you ended up giving this keepsake to your beloved Lauren.

Why?

It's probably like five or six years ago.

We're just trying to clean up the house, get rid of clutter.

I saw it and handed it to her and left.

Is she a backseat driver by nature?

Occasionally.

What kind?

How does she backseat drive?

Give me a specific example.

Sometimes if I drive a little aggressively, she'll note it.

Lauren?

Don't pretend to be reasonable, sir.

You're under fake oath.

So, yeah, so yeah, sometimes if

I drive drive defensively.

Usually it's when there's somebody driving at or.

When you say you drive defensively, does that mean that you drive on top of other cars?

No, no, no.

You know, you look ahead.

You look two, three cars ahead.

Okay.

You see what's going on.

Who's next to you, who's behind you, who's in front of you.

And usually if there's somebody in the left lane driving at the speed limit or below, that happens a lot in Virginia and the DC area.

Oh, Jeff, I will say what you're going to say.

If you see someone in the left lane and they're driving the speed limit a little under, what do you do?

Well, I'll see if it's because there isn't traffic in front of them.

Yes.

And they're not the cause of it, or if they just feel like driving with the way speed they want.

If they're parking, if they're camping in the left lane, what do you do, Jeff?

I will get a little bit closer to them.

And this is

just to clarify: this is what you call driving defensively.

Oh, yeah.

Because you're seeing that there's no one up ahead of them.

Right.

And

do do you flash your headlights at them?

I remind you you're at the same time.

Maybe once or twice.

But it's like every few years it happens.

Because most people will realize that they're driving too slow and then get over.

Right.

And then let, you know, me and 50 cars behind me pass them because they want us to go to the speed a little bit.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Jeff.

They're monsters.

Right.

I understand.

Right.

But I don't just flash the beams, honk my horn, or drive, you know, veer over and try try.

I don't flash your beams unless you do.

Unless I absolutely have to.

Right, okay.

Well, all right.

It has been a long time since I've done that.

Are you a backseat driver, Lauren?

I mean, did he hand you this card randomly, or is there something behind it?

There might be a little bit behind it.

I try not to do it too much.

Like it really, it has to be something that's really bothering me.

Like, there was that one time when he did flash his high beams, and I was like, you cannot do that.

I do not want to be married to that person do not do that anymore but yeah mostly it's yeah it's mostly like you know when he gets what did you say slightly tailgating that one time you know it's the slight tailgating I'm I don't like that okay is there anything else that Jeff does as a driver that you don't like that you'd like to get me to yell at him about now

Well, sometimes it's after the slight tailgating, he'll like speed around the person and then like cut back over into that lane.

I'm like, oh, God, please don't do that.

Oh, Oh, you'll pass them on the right, and then I say,

all right.

Jeff, did you know that this we were going to get into this today?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, good.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's just talking about defensive driving here, John.

Lauren, since we have.

10 and 2, pass on the right.

Let them know you're angry.

Since we have you pulled over here, may I please see your backseat driver's license and registration?

Yes, so this is, I do concede this is a problem.

I cannot find it.

We moved a couple years ago and I have been looking everywhere for it.

I don't know where it went.

So you don't, so you've lost your backseat driving license?

So I, yeah, I have lost it.

Jeff, you have a countersuit that you want to offer?

Oh, yes.

What is that?

Well, first, you know, I told her she didn't have the license.

She can't claim to have it, possessions nine tenths of law.

But the countersuit is...

In other words, because she doesn't have her backseat driver's license that you gave her, this prank thing that you got at South of the Border in 1962, she is no longer entitled to

give you her opinions of your driving.

Correct.

Or evoke saying, well, you gave it to me.

Is that something that you used to do when you had the backseat driver's license?

You would say, well, I'm entitled to because I'm a licensed backseat driver.

Yes, I have said that a few times because I feel I'm officially licensed.

Right.

But now you've lost it.

You know, just because you lose a driver's license doesn't mean you're not still licensed.

You just need to get a replacement somehow.

Yeah, that's true.

You just have to go reapply at the backseat DMV.

It's a little trickier for you.

You're going to do a mail-in version as well.

Jeff, so what is your countersuit then?

Several years ago, Lauren tore her Achilles tendon, had surgery.

months of physical therapy, and in that time I drove her everywhere, drove her to work, drove her to the doctor, you know.

And in that time, she said, you know, thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

You know, once once I get better, I'll be driving more to make up for it.

And that hasn't happened.

Has not really happened at all.

Do you not like to drive, Lauren?

Yeah, I don't really like driving that much.

If you were driving, you wouldn't have to worry about Jeff's antics on the road.

Yeah, but then sometimes then he becomes a backseat driver and complains about me driving.

What does Lauren do wrong on the road, Jeff?

It's mainly when she speeds up.

She doesn't flip enough people off.

Yeah, well, it's mainly when she exceeds the speed in residential areas.

You know, highways is fine.

You know, if she goes like five over is fine, but if she's going like 10 over in a residential area, that's when I'll mention, hey, you might want to slow down a little.

And that's about it.

You know,

that's about it.

How do you feel when Jeff critiques you in this way?

Yeah, I get a little annoyed.

Who's the better driver?

Do you want?

I think Jeff's probably a little better, although he does tend to be a little more aggressive.

Is there any other things that he's done that you complain about?

In general?

I'll allow it.

That wasn't my line of questioning, but we're here.

Bear in mind it's a 90-minute program.

You know, I don't want to take up the whole night.

I feel like there's always something.

So what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Lauren?

That I be allowed to be a backseat driver, even though I cannot currently find my license.

Lauren, have you ever investigated getting a replacement backseat driver's license?

I mean

I have not because I kind of feel like it's something that you should be given.

Like I feel weird buying one for myself.

Okay, fair enough.

Jeff, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

To state that, you know, since she can't produce a license, that she has no grounds to say she's a backseat driver legally.

And also to remember her promise and to drive more.

Not even, you know, not even 50-50, like 25% of the time.

Just do a little bit more.

Just a little bit more.

And not nag me or complain whenever I suggest it.

All right.

I think I've heard enough to make my decision and here it is.

You both do some terrible things as drivers.

I mean, people...

People who park in the left lane or camp, how we say camp in the left lane, people who drive the speed limit or under the speed limit in the passing lane

are annoying and they are doing the wrong thing because you're just supposed to be passing in that lane.

And a lot of times you get the sense, right, intuitively, that they think they're doing the world a service by blocking traffic so that no one can drive five or 10 miles over the speed limit.

And that is when you, Jeff, decide to become a vigilante

and come up behind them and risk their lives and yours by getting too close, passing on the right, and also signaling to them that they're,

what do we call them, jag-offs?

Yeah, I believe that's correct.

Yeah.

Technical term.

And all of this ultimately, you know,

causes, increases the possibility of a dangerous interaction on the road at high speed that you don't want to do.

So that's not a good thing either.

Lauren, don't speed in residential areas.

I mean, where do you got to go so fast that you might touch a person or an animal or a vehicle with your car, and all of a sudden your life is on a completely different path that's ruined forever.

Don't do that.

What I'm ordering is for Jeff, you, to go and find a new backseat driver's license for Lauren.

And Lauren, you find one for Jeff.

Yes!

Because

you both have to keep each other honest and be better drivers.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Thank you, Lauren and Jeff.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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judge hoshman, we do have some more justice to dispense during our Swift justice segment, but I think we could use some help in doing it.

Yes, we have a very special guest tonight, one of our favorite guests that we've ever had in DC, and she's back again.

Jesse, would you please introduce her?

She is a best-selling novelist.

Most recently, of the book Flying Solo, she has another book right around the corner.

She's one of the hosts of NPR's pop culture happy hour.

Please welcome our friend, Linda Holmes.

Linda Holmes to the stage, please.

Listen to that

roar of applause.

Yeah, I just want to say,

Linda is wearing a Bryce Harper jersey right now.

Hey, listen, we all want the same thing.

We want Atlanta to lose so we don't have to watch that chant all through the postseason.

We're all friends here.

Forging connections through coalition.

Thank you very much, Linda.

That's how change happens.

In a Judge John Hodgman courtroom, Linda Holmes gets a sports superstar level reception.

There is like full, ah, what?

Linda, we're so glad to have you back.

You've been a guest on the show a number of times.

Not long ago, you coined a term that has taken on real life in the Judge John Hodgman universe, which is little weirdsies.

Would you define what little weirdsies are?

So I think of a little weirdsy as a small thing that is important to you,

that you ask the people in your life to accommodate without any need for a logical justification for it.

Even if they find it a little weird.

Like, what would be a good example of that?

So, one of mine is:

I have hated loud noises ever since I was a little kid.

And if someone in a room that I am in is playing with an inflated balloon,

a common occurrence.

It happens at parties.

Yeah, you hang around a lot of children's birthday parties and clown conventions.

It happens.

I understand.

I understand.

If somebody has a balloon, I cannot relax.

I am like this.

Because I'm waiting for the balloon to pop.

And if they make that squeaking noise on the balloon.

No, no, no, no, no.

So that's one of mine.

So that's what it is.

And you ask people, put the balloon away.

I would say, oh, can you not play with the balloon?

It's really, it makes me nervous.

Can little weirdsies go too far?

I mean, tailgating is not one.

But

sure.

I mean, I think when you, I think if you...

I mean, I think that's actually a perfect example.

I think if it imposes on other people in any way, then you have to go into a different calculus where you're thinking about how important it is to you and

what does it impose on other people.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I am very sympathetic to Jeff, who we were just talking to, because

it is a little weirdsy for me, obviously, if someone's going slow in the passing lane.

Yeah.

That bothers me irrationally.

Like, we're all going to get there eventually, but it creates anger.

And that's why I think it's so bad.

It's like so common

that it's probably like, I don't even know if I would use that term on it because so many people feel that way

about slow drivers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're

pretty basic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jesse, didn't we ask some listeners?

Yeah, we have some cases where we have to find that line between harmless little weirdsy and should actually consider the feelings of others.

And we were hoping that you could help us with that, Linda.

Here is one from Andrea.

She says, I chew on Tic-Tacs as soon as they're in my mouth.

I just love to crunch them.

But I've been told this is weird.

Yeah.

Chewing.

Who likes to chew on Tic Tacs?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, applaud.

This is an awful, yeah.

You know, go ahead.

Now, wait, I appreciate your Pavlovian applause, but I mean, applaud if you like to chew on tic-tacs.

Oh, okay.

Jesse, Linda, do either of you have any special way or unusual way you like to eat common foods?

I don't think so.

I mean, I also chew TikToks, if that counts.

Yeah, I mean, I think so, Jesse, do you?

Well, I mean, speaking as a burrito fascist,

I believe that burritos should only be eaten from end to end.

They should not be eaten anywhere in the middle.

And I also believe that the whole burrito should not be consumed in one sitting, but rather half half to two-thirds of it should be consumed then the rest wrapped up and put in the refrigerator for tomorrow which is called marinating the stump

i cannot wait till later on this tour when i find a burrito first of all it's going to offend you so much because it's not going to be a california burrito and second i well first of all i'm from san francisco and california burritos are from san diego excuse me i apologize

Already getting under your little weirdsy skin.

Yeah.

I can't wait to eat a burrito in front of you.

Have fun eating a bunch of French fries in your burrito, John.

I can't wait to eat.

Honestly, they're pretty good.

I had one in San Diego recently.

I can't wait to eat a burrito in front of you like just a big old corn on the coffee.

Linda, you love to chew Tic Tacs.

I do.

What do you think about this as a little weirdsy?

Well, I would never launch you back into the world of is a food this thing or that thing?

I'd love to be in that world.

But This is really the question of whether Tic Tacs are a candy or a mint, right?

Because if they're a mint, then you would tend to like suck on them and let them dissolve because the idea is to freshen up your breath and everything.

But if they're a candy, you would just stuff them into your face and chew.

And I think the fact that,

I think that

peppermint tic-tacs, I would think of as more of a mint,

but like orange tic-tacs?

You mean the best tic-tacs?

Yes, those are my favorite tic-tacs.

The only tic-tacs, yes.

Orange tic-tacs are just a little orange candy.

And so when you put some orange tic-tacs in your mouth, I mean one at a time, obviously, which is the only way I would ever do it.

It seems normal to chew a candy.

I would argue that orange tic-tacs are even more specifically, they're a candy with a plausible deniability.

That's very true.

You can whip them out and you're like, who me?

I'm just eating some mints.

I wasn't going to say this, but I'm going to say a short version of it now.

When I was in high school, I did that liquid diet thing that Oprah did, where you just drink shakes and you're not allowed to eat.

And I was one of the few people in my group.

I never cheated.

I was 17 years old.

I went 12 weeks.

I never ate.

But

they said that because doing that makes your breath all screwed up,

you were allowed to have mints, like you could have Tic Tacs.

My like one source of pleasure during those 12 weeks.

Oh, were you chewing tic-tacs very much?

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like the.

I just, I had to when you said the thing about plausible deniability, because that's exactly correct.

They're very, I mean, they're very, they're very satisfying to chew.

Yeah.

And they make, you know, because I grew up with cats and chewing tic-tacs is like a cat eating kibbles.

Like, God.

Yeah.

Except I would feel like a space cat in space because they're very space-age cat food.

Yeah.

Why don't we hear another one?

Taylor says, my husband leaves dirty dishes on the counter because he doesn't believe in soaking them.

In his mind, the sink needs to be clear in case he needs to wash his hands and a full sink stresses him out.

I think this is weird.

Before we address this particular case,

are there any household chores that just weird you out?

Like, for example, I love to load the dishwasher because it's like solving a puzzle that I can do correctly and everyone else in my house does wrong.

For sure.

I have to.

Whereas

I hate to unload the dishwasher because of the texture of the glasses when they come out with the rinse aid on them, it's really weird to me.

And also, it involves frequent bending over at the waist, which I cannot stand.

I literally, John, at my house, like if I pull that top rack out and I see that my kids' therapist has put their cup helpfully, like in just the wrong place.

I have to just, I have to like literally say to myself, they are responsible for my child's developmental health.

I can't attack them.

What about you, Linda?

Do you have a household chore or a thought on?

I think the, it's interesting that you mentioned the dishwasher because one of the few household chores that really gives me the heebie jeebies is cleaning the filter in the dishwasher.

Oh, yeah see you all know some of you have done it some of you have cleaned the filter it's really gnarly it's really gnarly i like it so much

it's it's like the ultra version of picking your nose

That is accurate.

That is accurate.

I will go with that.

That's so satisfying.

I'll even bend over at the waist to do it.

But I appreciate why that would be your your little weirdsy.

John, would you prefer to clean that or a lint trap in a dryer?

This is a real Sophie's choice situation.

I gotta go, I think it's more satisfying to clean out the waist trap in the dishwasher.

Wow.

It's more satisfying.

That's incredible.

You know what?

With the lint trap.

in the dryer, there are never any surprises.

You know what you're going to get.

By the way, when you said this was a Sophie's choice situation, you meant that this is how you're going to win your Oscar.

Linda, what do you think about Taylor's husband?

I understand

both sides of this because it is nice to have a clean sink.

It is also nice not to have a bunch of dishes sitting around on the counter.

I don't enjoy having dishes in the sink either.

This is not to say I wash my dishes immediately.

It's just that I am angry with myself no matter which way I do it.

But my preference is, I mean, I think if something has like egg on it or something like that,

you got to soak that thing.

If you're not going to wash it right away, you got to soak that thing

because otherwise you're not going to get anything off of it.

So some things you have to,

but I don't like a sink full of dishes either.

Some things you have to soak, it's true.

Yeah.

But most things you don't.

That's true.

If you are going to wash it right away.

And if you have a little weirdsy, which is I feel uncomfortable and anxious that I can't, because the sink is full of dishes, then it's on you to wash those dishes right away, right?

Yeah, but I but I think also, like, whichever way you do it, it's you're both compromising because you're not doing the dishes immediately and loading them into the dishwasher, which is the, I guess, theoretically ideal way to do it.

But yeah, I mean, I don't, I think when you have a sink full of dishes, like if I have a sink full of dishes and the dog wants water, then I got to get the pitcher and go over and put it under the sink and hold it sideways because there's dishes in there.

And so it's inconvenient.

No, I understand Taylor's husband's point of view, but I feel for the husband.

I feel for him too, but I feel like it's on him to clear out that sink if he wants it clear.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Hey,

we've got one,

another little weirdsy to be presented by another very special guest.

Could we invite friend of the court and frequent guest bailiff and all-around genius Gene Gray to the stage, please?

Gene has a forthcoming book called In My Remaining Years that will be in bookstores March 11th and is available for pre-order now.

Yeah,

this is your wonderful book of memoir.

Yes.

And darkly funny stories from your long career as a creative person in many fields, correct?

Yes, they're all very hilarious.

In My Remaining Years, it's available for pre-order now.

Gene, do you have a little weirdsy that you'd like to talk to us about?

I do, and I'm sorry to stay on the

kitchen.

Oh, that's where the weirdsies happen.

Yeah, but it it is where weirdsies happen.

So I really have an issue when people don't

wipe surfaces after they've prepared anything.

And I think people generally tend to like wipe for big crumbs and stuff, but they don't notice if they've salted or peppered anything and they kind of leave like a you know what I'm talking about right there.

It's a granular

graveyard.

And

Yeah.

It me on that.

You leave a graveyard of dead spices

on the counter?

I'm really bad about wiping up the counter, yeah.

And I'll do it like at the end of everything, but I don't wipe the counter.

At closing time, it's too late.

I know.

Because then the grains have started to sort of have a life there.

I know.

My fruit salads end up very peppery.

Yeah.

What are you mixing your fruit salads on the raw counter?

Off the top of my head.

Like it's a cold stone creamery for fruit salads.

A couple of dough scrapers.

That's what it feels like when people do that.

I'm like, what have you, but did you go in there with your eyes closed and just, did you spin around with the cayenne?

Like, what are you doing?

I mean, broadly speaking, yes.

It was fun.

There's, okay, there's that weirdsy, but but the one that just turns me into, you know that the Elmo with the fire

oh that meme it's not squeezing out the sponge

I what are what are you talking about why would you you just you finished it and then it was it was heavy and it was wet and it was you felt it you felt it and you were like this is fine you don't love it this is fine

I love how this is gonna smell.

My office mates will appreciate this.

Not that I'm speaking of any particular office at Max Fun.

Right.

I think they just did some testing in like America's Test Kitchen or Sirius Eats or one of those.

They just did a thing where they reported on, I think, a study that showed that a sponge that has been squeezed out will have like practically no bacteria colonies on it and one that has been left wet will basically be a dump.

That's right.

It's a handful of poop,

is what it is.

That's what I was looking for.

Well, speaking of handfuls of poop, Jesse, I think we have a letter here from Rachel.

Is that right?

Rachel says, my 15-year-old daughter, Natalie, says I'm gross.

She thinks it's embarrassing when I say, I have to be, or I'm on my period, or I have just committed a bathroom crime.

I say I'm doing my part to normalize activities that shouldn't be considered shameful anyway.

Who's right?

Well, as the judge, I'm going to say obviously the mom is right.

You should just speak about what's going on with your body.

That's fine.

But let's normalize this.

Let the record reflect that Linda cringed sternly.

Do you disagree?

Do you disarray with my judgment?

I don't disagree that the mom is right.

I don't think the mom is doing anything wrong by doing these things, but I also think it's extremely natural and not necessarily shame-based for a kid to not want to hear their parents talking about pooping.

I think that's okay too.

And I think, you know, is there a special reason why you need to tell the kid?

I mean, if you have a reason, I don't think you should like avoid it because...

You think my kids don't want to hear about my stools?

I...

Look, guys.

I think they don't.

I think Linda has a point.

All of us are adults here.

Obviously, we want to hear about our parents' movements.

But think back to when you were children.

Look, I'm not disagreeing that there are contexts in which it is inappropriate to be talking about certain bodily functions.

And it's not, you know, it's not obligatory to announce them to the world or to your children every time, but nor should you feel shame in acknowledging that they happen.

But let's get back to the real question here.

For all of you.

What was your last bathroom crime?

John, I'm not going to address that question directly, but I think I can get at it sideways.

Last night we had a show.

That would be a bathroom crime.

Last night, John, we had a show where?

Philadelphia, I believe.

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Now,

go Phillies.

And all great teams.

I had eaten what you might call some fresh foods for dinner before the show.

And after the show, we were walking home.

It was about 11:30 at night.

What did you say to me?

I said, I'm a little hungry, Jesse.

And I said, gosh, I am tuned in.

What did we go do?

I said, let's go get cheesesteaks.

Yeah.

So we ate a couple of 11:30 p.m.

Cheese Whiz cheese steaks.

Yeah.

Hey, we're not gremlins.

Yeah.

It was before midnight.

We're still Magwai.

Then this morning,

still in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,

probably eight hours after those cheesesteaks that we ate,

I texted you from Reading Station in downtown Philadelphia,

sitting at a Dutch breakfast counter.

That's right.

And what did I invite you to join me to eat together?

Scrapple.

Yeah.

So again, I'm not going to directly address whether any bathroom crimes have occurred in my life recently.

I'm just going to leave it there.

Scrapple is delicious.

I love scrapple.

Scrapple's great.

Scrapple is the way in.

It looks like a crime on the way in.

It looks the same coming out.

I call that efficiency.

Well, I think that's all the time we have for little weirdsies.

Thank you so much, John Holmes.

John, we can't make Linda do it.

She's with National Public Radio, in contrast to me, who now used to be with National Public Radio.

So the deal is with National Public Radio, employees are not allowed to express political opinions or talk about their poops.

Yeah, or describe their movement.

I understand.

Thank you so much, Linda Holmes, for talking about a little weirdsies, but you have a book coming out soon, right?

I do.

I do.

My book is called Back After This.

It's coming out in February.

It is set in the world of audio and podcasting.

It has a very sexy scene involving audio production.

So look out for that.

I just want to say, I have read both of Linda's previous novels, and they are so fun and beautiful, and well-characterized, and

full of feelings and romances.

And they're just, she's such a wonderful novelist.

I hope everyone who enjoys her work here or on Pop Culture Happy Hour will go out and check out her novels.

And, Gene, I'm sure that in the future I will feel that way.

You haven't put it out in your books yet, but I anticipate that.

You should feel that way now, Jess.

Thank you.

Just feel that way now.

We don't have time.

Yeah.

Let's hear it for Gene Gray and Linda Holmes.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we are just one week away as this episode is released from our live show at the Hollywood Theater in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Our grand return to Canada, years in the making, is about to bear fruit at the Hollywood Theater in no fun city itself, Vancouver.

I learned that Vancouver calls itself no fun City

the last time we were in Vancouver, but I had a great time there, and we're guaranteed to have a lot of fun at the Hollywood Theater on the 29th of this month, January 2025.

Please come and join us there, as well as our shows in Seattle, Washington, Portland, Oregon, and of course, Groundhog Day at Sketchfest.

We'll be returning to one of our favorite venues to perform in the Marine Memorial Theater, a wonderful and intimate spot.

And we're going to be dispensing justice and having a great time.

We do have a Los Angeles show.

It is long ago sold out.

And I am here to warn you that these shows in Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland and San Francisco are probably going to sell out as well.

Particularly, the San Francisco show is going very fast.

So if you missed out on the LA show, you can make a Bay Area weekend.

and come up to see us at Marines Memorial Theater in San Francisco on Groundhog's Day 2225 and as well as enjoy some of all of the wonderful things that San Francisco and Sketchfest have to offer.

A lot of comedy and a bunch of it-its, right, Jesse?

Indeed.

In fact, I would recommend if you're going to come out to that San Francisco show, take the Bay Area Backroads.

That's only for people in San Francisco.

Nobody who's not in San Francisco or the San Francisco Bay Area knows what the heck I was alluding to just now.

All of those tickets are available at maximumfund.org/slash events.

Maximumfund.org slash events.

Let's get back to the stage at the 9 in Washington, D.C.

Washington, D.C., are you ready for mega justice?

Let's bring out our litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Marty and Sarah.

Tonight's case, until death drew you art.

Marty brings the case against his wife, Sarah.

Marty has a painting of himself as a baby.

He's had it his whole life, and now he wants to hang it in their home.

But Sarah says, No way, she wants to get rid of baby Marty because he's too creepy.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Good evening, and welcome to a private showing of three paintings displayed here for the first time.

Each is a collector's item in its own way, not because of any special artistic quality, but because each captures on a canvas and suspends in time and space a frozen moment of a nightmare.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Marty and Zara, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever?

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he was born 42 years old?

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Marty and Sarah, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favorites can either be the name of the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom.

Sarah,

what's your guess?

I have no clue.

Well, I know.

You have to make it.

I know I do.

You must.

What's your favorite movie?

I'm going to say it's Psycho, just because it fits with this painting.

Psycho?

It fits with the painting.

That's a good guess.

I'm going to put it in the guest book.

Marty, do you have a guess?

Something from Tom Waits about paintings.

That would be the last tour we were on.

Would it help if I offered you both a hint?

Also from the same speaker.

For those of you who've never met me, you might call me the undernourished Alfred Hitchcock.

The only Alfred Hitchcock I think of is birds.

Oh, there's also Psycho.

Oh, I know.

There's Psycho 2, yes.

No, Psycho 2 was not directed by Alfred Hitchcock.

All right, all guesses are wrong.

The answer was: I was quoting Rod Serling as the host not of the Twilight Zone, but his follow-up series, Night Gallery, in which every episode started with him describing three disturbing paintings and telling the story behind them.

We have a disturbing disturbing painting with us here.

Don't reveal it just yet.

Marty, this is about a disturbing painting.

You have it here with us.

Why don't you go ahead and show the painting to the audience?

And now,

we're getting a mix of reactions there.

And not all of them are creeped out.

Some are very positive, but maybe it's because it's at a distance.

Can we put it on the big screen, please?

Oh, God.

It's a sweet painting.

I think it's a cute painting.

There's baby Marty now, and I see the resemblance even.

You've got the same smile.

Obviously, this image will be available on our show page at maximumfund.org as well as our Instagram and all of our social media.

Now, this painting is based on a photograph of you, right?

Yes.

May we see the photo of you?

That's a very cute photo.

And I love how the painting captures the drool.

You can just see.

Yep.

Yep.

There it is.

That's what art is, John.

That's called art.

That's a happy little accident right there.

Marty, this painting has been, you know, obviously in your family since you were this age.

Yes, it's hung in my parents' house since I was...

that old.

It's been, it's in the background of old pictures.

It has moved around over the years with remodels and things, but it has always, always been there.

It was a gift from my aunt.

And when you say it's moved around, you mean that it's been been moved from wall to wall or just shows up in different rooms right now?

No, it's been moved.

Okay.

And what do you know about the artist of the painting?

Well, so...

Recently we were cleaning up my mom's house and I went over to take the painting off the wall to bring back to Washington, D.C.

She's in Kansas City.

And Sarah goes, you are not

that

and I said why and she goes it was painted by an insane person

I had a vague recollection of this and then I asked my mom and yep it was painted by an insane person at an insane asylum where my aunt worked

it was painted by a patient

in a home for the mentally unwell where your aunt worked.

Presumably she provided the the photo to this patient.

And you didn't sit as a live model as a child.

Not that I know of.

The two theories are that one she gave the guy the picture, the other one, and said, Here, paint this, or she had the picture and he saw it and just

did it of his own accord.

And do you know anything else about him while he was in the asylum?

Well, so I googled him, and

that's where the rails kind of fell off of this thing.

So can I just interject here for a moment, Marty?

Just to recap,

you have this weird picture with the drool

and it was painted by someone in an insane asylum.

So to that point, the rails were on.

Then you googled it and the rails went off.

Yeah.

Normally you talk about something coming off the rails.

In this case, the rails came off.

Yes.

Content warning, what you learned is a little disturbing.

It is, yes.

So he blew up a courthouse in Union, Missouri, and escaped with his brother.

They robbed the bank.

They blew up the courthouse as a distraction to rob the bank.

Perfect plan.

They robbed the bank and escaped and did the same thing in Connecticut.

That's where they got caught.

Yeah, you can't get away with shit in Connecticut, let me tell you.

Those nutmegers do not play.

So then he's caught.

He claims insanity.

He ends up in Fulton, Missouri in December of 75.

I was born in November.

He was released in May of 76.

So there is a very small window there when he could have done it.

When they

left town after the first blowing up, they

realized that a couple of

the term is up-blowing.

When they left town after the first up-blowing, really no syntax could change the impact of the first

blowing up.

Yes.

So there were two members of his family that were missing.

They didn't find them until after he was released.

under a concrete slab at his farm in Maryland.

So the speculation is he murdered members of his family.

Yes.

Then he was captured, went back to jail.

At some point in here, he also tried to escape by carving a gun out of soap.

And the only reason that he didn't make it is because the guard forgot his keys.

Doing a little math here.

In other words, the guard was going to let him out.

thinking the gun was real.

Yes.

But then he's like, whoops, I forgot my keys.

Yes.

Yes.

That's like the guard was like, Don Knotts or something.

That was the

first time the phrase, you had one job, was ever used, I believe.

So that's pretty much the story of the painting.

Why would you find...

Wait, no, you left out.

You left out where he got such remarkable art training.

It really is a canny likeness.

Can we put it back up on screen?

There's a little baby Marty.

So what about this story makes you...

What's creepy about this?

Sarah?

So the thing that I find creepy is where we would sit at his mom's house was on the couch, and this was on the painting or on the wall next to it.

All the other pictures were small, and this one was very prominent.

Well,

baby Marty.

I even right now with this really big right here, feel like the eyes are staring at me.

Sarah, I don't think you even need to explain to us that the creepy part of this is that this picture was bigger than other pictures.

Are you an only child, Marty?

No, I have a brother.

But no paintings of your brother.

Apparently, no artist was in the institution when he was born.

Life's unfair.

Do you have, you, but you have children, correct, Sarah?

Yes, we have two.

And how do they feel the painter?

Our daughter agrees with me that it needs to go away.

Our son would be happy to keep it unless if it goes away by fire,

then he would be happy to burn it.

Your son would like to burn it.

Yeah.

I see.

And have you checked out the local courthouses?

Marty says that when you discovered that he had the painting, you said something along the lines of, oh, hell no.

Would that be right?

There were a bunch of bad words that I'm not going to say because there's children here.

I believe that we have some video of you discovering the painting.

So what's the situation here?

I did not know he brought it to DC.

And

what you will see is I am going through a couple of boxes of stuff that we had stored at his mom's house

of my things for teaching, and

I'll leave it there.

All right, let's take a look at this evidence.

Jennifer, you aren't doing 550 for 1570.

You will take the lead.

You got this right.

Damn it.

I thought it was

You brought the insane guy

picture,

and this is the picture that was drawn by the guy in the insane asylum who murdered people.

Called the nut house.

He murdered his grandmother and his dad.

No, no, no, no.

That is our lovely daughter.

That would be your daughter.

No, No, no, no, no.

Marty, do you take pleasure in scaring and annoying your family?

Occasionally, yes.

Okay.

It's actually just me.

Just you?

Yeah.

Do you want to keep the painting?

Yes.

And hang it in your home.

I definitely want to keep it.

The story is too incredible to get rid of it.

Hanging it,

it'll probably end up somewhere if you keep it.

What do you mean somewhere?

Down a little bit of

a huge damage.

It will end up in multiple locations so that I don't know where it is so that when I turn the corner, there's the painting.

It does seem inevitable, doesn't it?

It moves around.

Let the records show that Marty is nodding and smiling.

The one location that was mentioned was we have an area under our steps that's kind of our storm shelter.

We're remnants from Kansas City where we've got to have a storm shelter.

And it was suggested that it live in there.

And my daughter's like, what are we going to do when there's a tornado?

I'm not going in there.

You would sacrifice your daughter's life.

You would send her to Oz

so that baby Marty could live.

Baby Marty is more important than your own child.

Her exact words were, I don't want that to be the last thing that I see if something happens to me.

Just fixated on that one little drop of drool.

Aside from this being a delightful weird dad joke on your whole family,

does Baby Marty have meaning to you?

Sincere meaning?

And it's fine if the answer is no.

I mean, my family's always been big on pictures.

My parents' home is just absolutely plastered with family pictures, this being very prominent in there.

You saw the wall in the background of the video filled with pictures.

So, yeah, I mean,

pictures mean a lot to us.

And this is the only painting of me ever.

My parents grew up very poor.

There was no way they could afford somebody to do a real painting, you know.

Has baby Marty ever spoken to you?

No.

I don't know why I've been prompted to ask you this question, but I do find it an intriguing one, Sarah.

Here's the question.

Is Marty a hoarder?

Just a little bit.

No, actually, yes, a lot.

So

he actually has a whole room

of

items.

Haunted items, cursed items.

No, he does like to collect autographs,

but he has a whole room full of boxes of them.

He does like his pictures, and we actually have the top of a whole closet full of photo boxes of pictures.

But he also has what he likes to call, part of my language, the big ass drive.

And it's like a terabyte.

Oh, like a hard drive.

Like a hard drive.

It's a terabyte, and it's full of pictures.

So my thought is, is why can't that go in that terabyte?

So you mean

take a picture of the picture?

So I never have to see it again.

Then kill it with fire.

Yeah.

You would like to never see it again.

Marty, why don't you keep it in a private place?

Hold on, John.

I don't know if you've seen the last Mission Impossible movie, but you put that picture in the drive.

You're going to have trouble across the world.

This thing's going to be in Berlin nightclubs in a second.

Probably true.

Yeah, it's going to be shutting off power grids.

Marty, what if you were to keep the picture privately to yourself?

Go up into the.

Do you have an attic, for example?

You could keep it in the attic and go up there and sort of caress it from time to time and commune with your baby self and its strange history.

Wouldn't that be acceptable to you, Sarah?

Except it would probably go on the Halloween decorations, and I'm the one who gets the Halloween decorations down.

I see.

And so I would see it.

And

that's my only fear.

What if the painting started getting older and Marty started getting younger?

I would get to see him without gray hair then, because I've never seen him without gray hair.

Whoa,

you two have fun, don't you?

Let their record reflect that they held hands tenderly while laughing at that joke.

All right, you want to get rid of it, Sarah, obviously.

Marty, give me something specific that you want me to rule.

Obviously, you want to keep it, right?

But where do you want to keep it?

How do you want to keep it?

And

more importantly, to make your case, why is it important that you keep it?

Well, I think so.

One of the things that my dad did was he built all of the picture frames that live in the house, except for this one.

And I did not realize.

You know, the picture frames are not alive.

They don't live in the house.

Unless there's some, your dad was a warlock or whatever.

But this one, they actually got framed.

Like,

it's from a framing company in

Richard C.

Berry

and Associates framers in

Prairie Village, Kansas.

Okay.

So this is the only picture that they've ever had professionally framed that I know of.

And it's dated 12, 1978.

You ever take it on the road show?

No.

Think we can get this on antique further?

I think I could text Nico Lowry real quick.

Yeah, you want to do me a favor and take a picture and text him and see if he's got an appraisal on this?

Okay.

Wait, wait, here, take a picture of the back because that establishes provenance.

And give him the bare bones of, you know, the bank.

I'm texting him.

Exploding courthouses,

murdered grandparents in concrete slab in home,

et cetera, et cetera.

Caught in Connecticut.

You know the story.

Everyone does.

famous american story okay so this one was so your argument for keeping this personal memorabilia was it was professionally framed

i think that showed that it was important to my parents oh okay and they displayed it prominently for a long time did did they ever talk to you about what it meant to have this photo no or this painting i should say i only had a vague recollection of the insane asylum story and sarah and my sister-in-law both had very vivid memories of that so

it was important to your family.

It's important to you.

Would you like to pass it along to your own children?

Sarah is nodding no.

I feel like Bryce would like it.

Yeah.

Bryce wants to kill it with fire.

If we get rid of it, if we keep it, I think he'd like to inherit it.

Why do you think that?

Just for the story alone.

What indication do you have from Bryce?

I thought Bryce wanted to burn it.

John, is this all right?

Nico, we're on stage in TC and need a back-of-the-envelope appraisal for this picture.

It is of our litigant and was painted by an insane asylum resident who also robbed some banks and murdered a few relatives.

Throbbing heart emoji.

Send.

While Jesse sends it, I think I have heard enough in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'll think it over.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Sarah, how are you feeling

about your chances in this case right now?

I think they're pretty good.

I mean, I'm willing to let him keep the frame and get rid of the picture.

Marriage is about compromise.

Exactly.

And it is a nice frame.

We don't know if it's an original or if it's by one of the associates.

Exactly.

Marty, how are you feeling?

Well,

the more I speak it out loud, the weirder it sounds.

But it is an incredible story, and I do love the story with it.

Yeah, I mean, putting it with your Halloween decorations isn't a half-bad idea.

I mean, I live right near Burbank where all the FX people live, and I think all of those people would trade their entire animatronic homes for one murderer painting.

Yeah, this guy's got cash in hand.

Do you mind we don't have Nico here to run another one of those auctions?

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we return in a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

First of all, you're absolutely right, Jesse.

I mean,

if Nico happens to write back, we'll obviously reveal what he says.

I don't know when that will happen.

But it's true that if we were in Burbank right now, there would be an immediate bidding ward between Dana Gould and Patton Oswald for you.

Exactly what I was about to say.

I was about to say there's 100 Dana Goulds that would pay for it.

But, you know, I love Dana and I love Patton.

And I don't think that they collect odd memorabilia, but this is genuinely ghoulish.

memorabilia to the point that I actually

thought about not hearing the case because it's not merely that the origin of the painting is strange and eccentric, but it's also tragic and

disturbing.

And I absolutely acknowledge and appreciate why you don't want to be anywhere near this thing, Sarah.

I mean, I get it.

Even if it were a beautiful painting,

which it is not,

The story alone, you know, weights this thing with some very queasy gravity, which is kind of makes it challenging to figure out what to do with it.

I find it interesting that your parents, presumably knowing its origin, were like, pride of place.

Here we go, baby Marty.

Baby Marty by the murderer.

You know, right there.

And I'm not sure that I would have made the same choice myself, you know, if I had

the possession of this thing?

And now it falls to you, you and you, the two of you, you, adult Marty and baby Marty, to figure out what is the appropriate thing.

It should not be burned.

Sorry.

There has been no evidence suggested that it is actually causing misfortune in your home.

or strange accidents to occur or

dogs to whine and uncontrollably in its presence, I don't believe that it's a cursed item.

I'm not going to touch it.

Nor do I think it is an appropriate compromise that he can keep the frame.

As fine a professional frame job it is.

That's not what gives this piece of art its power.

And

even with its bad origin story, it is a part of family history.

It has to be preserved in some way.

I'm sorry, Sarah.

It has to be preserved.

And I'm not sure this really brings us to where and how it should be preserved.

It obviously causes you discomfort.

Should there be a tornado, this is in your house in Kansas City or in D.C.

D.C.

I was going to say, this is in Tornado Alley, but nowadays everything is, so who knows?

I would want it to be in a place where your children would choose not to save their own lives

because baby Marty scares them.

The attic seems like the perfect place for it.

A little shrine.

A little shrine somewhere in the attic where you can sit and look at yourself as a baby.

I mean, that's where creepy paintings are supposed to be.

And not every house has an attic, you know.

Sarah doesn't want that to happen because that's where the Halloween decorations are, which this is arguably one of them.

And she has to go up there and get it.

I would say if you want to put it in the attic, then you have to get the Halloween decorations and take that chore upon yourself.

And also check in with your family from time to time and just say,

I just want to check in with you.

You know he's up there, right?

Can you feel him?

Can you feel baby Marty?

He'll be up there with the pennywise thing that they have.

That scares me too.

There's a pennywise thing up there?

Okay, yeah.

This is, I mean, you know,

we're sending it to Nico.

We really should send it to Aiden, the Spirit Halloween kid, for his appraisal.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll get him.

But here's the thing.

You can keep it.

Put it in a place out of sight, ideally out of mind,

where it will be displayed.

I don't think it should be in a drawer somewhere because that might make baby Marty angry.

The attic seems to me like a good place, but another neutral private space is fine, because it's part of your family history.

I don't think that it should be a Halloween decoration, because I think that that...

that that makes that you know it diminishes it but i do think if matt hold it i will touch it again i do think it would be a wonderful Halloween costume,

which you will wear this Halloween.

You turn it into a mask and walk around the neighborhood that way and see what happens.

That's my judgment.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Marty, Sarah, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you, and thank you, little Marty, as well.

That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Thanks to to Redator Strange-Movie for naming the case in this episode.

Huge thanks to two of our favorite people on earth, Linda Holmes and Gene Gray, for joining us on stage in Washington, D.C.

Linda's brand new novel, Back After This, and Jean's memoir, In My Remaining Years, both available for pre-order now.

Get those books.

Those two are not just hilarious and insightful raconteurs, but hilarious and insightful writers as well.

I just really can't recommend their books enough.

Linda Holmes,

like a charming romantic novel set in the world of podcasting.

Gene's book, a charming, hilarious memoir/slash essay collection about set in the world of underground rap and other worlds and other worlds, John.

And growing up in the Chelsea Hotel in New York City,

Jean has lived a life so far.

And you should read all about what she's going to do in her remaining years, in her book, In My Remaining Years.

You know, Jean grew up, this is something I didn't know, but Jean's mom, Satima Bay Benjamin, was essentially the person who brought South African jazz to a worldwide audience.

Her first record as a singer was produced by Duke Ellington.

Yeah.

It is in all of her records, they are incredible.

I have several of her records.

And so Gene grew up in a pretty extraordinary world.

Like a pretty unbelievable world as like a

first, first generation born in the United States immigrant in the Chelsea Hotel.

I mean, like, it's wild what Gene has been through, besides being a genuinely legendary rapper.

Like, Gene comes on our show and is hilarious and insightful, but like, take it from me, a rap guy, Gene is a genuine legend in the world of hip-hop.

Anyway, Gene Gray is so cool.

And heck, Linda's right up there too.

Less known for her rapping.

Less known for her rapping.

I'd like to, you know, she's got bars.

Follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgman pod.

Check out the YouTube version of this show for some of the video footage that Sixth and I captured during this show.

That's really cool.

Come see us on tour on the West Coast.

Tickets are still on sale for our shows in Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco.

You can find all of the ticket links at maximumfun.org slash events.

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We are almost sold out at all of those shows.

So come get your last tickets and have a great time with us.

We don't know when we'll be on the road again, so this is your chance to come say hi.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode recorded by Matthew Matthew Barnhart.

Natty Lopez is our social media manager.

A.J.

McKeon is our podcast editor.

Daniel Speer is our video editor.

And our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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