I'll See You and Raise Your Right Hand

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, I'll see you and raise your right hand.

Joe brings the case against his fiancé, Julie.

Joe learned poker from his grandmother.

She taught his whole family all sorts of wild variants of the game, from baseball to big Murph.

Playing these games is a beloved family tradition, but Julie says that her future in-laws are losers and suckers because these games are not real poker.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I've been told that I am as bad a loser as I am a winner.

I hope that I'm not too obnoxious.

At the game I play weekly, I'm very loud.

I'm very demanding.

I'm a loud, loud man.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Joe, Julie, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his mechanics grip has put a sign on his back?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that his giant gavel is smaller than my new giant gavel?

I do.

I do.

Yeah, I got a giant gavel now, John.

What is happening out there in Maximum Fun HQ in Los Angeles?

We got dueling gavels and.

Look how huge this freaking thing is.

That's incredible.

Look, anyone who wants to see the giant gavel off, you got to go to our YouTube page at Judge John Hodgman Pod over there at YouTube.

Subscribe, like, share, comment, et cetera.

My gavel's so giant I can hardly hold it up with my left hand.

I've got to huge hands here.

My gavel's so giant that even reaching at my full length of my arm, I'm still not getting to it, and it still looks huge.

Yeah, Jesse, I hate to say this.

Your gavel's bigger than mine.

Hey, would that make sense?

Because today is about that ultimate gavel measuring contest known as poker.

Bailiff Jessethorne, you've sworn them in.

Joe and Julie, you may be seated.

We're an immediate summary judgment in one of your favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered this courtroom.

Joe, why don't we start with you?

I had prepared Maverick,

the classic movie from the 90s, maybe 80s.

Well, I mean,

that's it.

You're talking about the Mel Gibson Jody Foster romp,

which itself was a remake of the Maverick TV shows starring James Garner,

the original Mav from the 60s and 70s.

That's a pretty good guess.

By classic, I presume you mean old.

Old.

James Garner.

I mean, it's not bad, but.

James Garner's always great.

Yeah, that's true.

And

boy, oh boy, did Mel Gibson and Jody Foster have weird chemistry in that film?

That's all I'll say about that.

I like that guess a lot, Joe.

Julie, the bet is to you.

Actions on Julie.

What's your guess?

I'm going to go from the movie Big, just based on size comparisons.

Big?

The Tom Hanks movie that features a lot of dancing on giant piano keys, but zero poker.

I'm going to tell you that that one's wrong.

I'm going to

give you another guess with a hint.

The same person also said in the same piece of culture, two of spades, two of spades, I'm not kidding, two of spades.

Does that help?

I had to back off the mic for that one.

It does not help me.

All right.

I'll scare.

All right, Julie Folds.

So all guesses are wrong.

I'm going to say that that two of spades, two of of spades is not Lemmy from Motorhead, but is in fact

actor, raconteur, friend of the court, loud, loud man, and poker player, the wonderful Richard Kind,

who uh

I went way, I went way back in the Wayback Machine on YouTube to a July 2004 episode of Bravo Television's Celebrity Poker Showdown

back when celebrity was all the vogue.

And Dave Foley was hosting a celebrity poker show for multiple years.

This was a two-hour long broadcast where in this particular episode, Jenny Garth from 90210, Jerry O'Connell, the late Willie Garson, rest in peace,

Dave Navarro, Richard Kind, I think that's it, all played poker together for charity.

I won't tell you who won, but I got to tell you, the heads-up one-to-one competition at the end of this tournament between Richard Kind and Dave Navarro is very dramatic.

Check it out.

Now, you have me thirsty for a motorhead cover band fronted by Richard Kind called Two of Spades.

He's a Renaissance man entertainer, Richard Kind.

I think he could do it.

I'm going to ask him if he'll record Ace of Spades for us, and maybe we'll throw it on as a bonus in the bonus content of the members-only feed.

But meanwhile, for you,

the listener, and you, Joe and Julie, you come to our court looking for justice.

We're about to provide it.

Joe, you bring the case.

Is that right?

That is correct.

Joe,

tell me about your grandmother and these games.

First of all, is your grandmother still alive?

She is not.

I'm sorry to hear that.

What did you call her when she was alive?

Grandmother?

Grandma.

Grandma.

Yeah, I think that's mostly it.

Tell me all about all the games that grandma taught you.

So we played a lot of just random poker games.

Do you want me to name them now?

Yes.

Okay.

Well, I didn't know.

We played games like, and I have my sheet here.

Oh, I love it.

I love it.

Big Murph.

Big Murph.

M-U-R-P-H.

Correct.

Go on.

Baseball.

Baseball.

That's a classic poker variation.

Both night and day.

Night ball and dayball.

What follows the queen?

Follows the queen is what we call it.

Big L?

The big L.

That's what one of you is going to get today when I rule in the other person's favor.

Under 10?

Don't know that one.

Jacks or better trips to win?

Yep, know that one.

Jacks or bets.

Elevator?

Oh, wow.

There are a lot of them here.

Why am I taking notes?

They're written down.

Keep going.

I've stopped writing.

And the last one is lowhand.

Oh, I almost got them all.

When you said Big L, I just, in my head, immediately started thinking of poker variants as all being legendary underground rap figures from the 1990s.

That's right.

Oh, yeah, we played Big Murph, Big L, Chino XL.

We played High and Mighty.

All right.

And these games, so for folks who don't know,

you know, poker has many, many variants, as it were.

I mean, almost always what you're trying to do is make the best possible five card hand out of various cards that are dealt to you in in different sequences and the hands tend to be always the same uh you know high card being the lowest best hand then a pair uh two pair three of a kind straight flush full house i'm probably missing a few four of a kind you know These hands are ranks, and these ranks are the same throughout these games, but the number of cards you play with, the number of cards you share with other players changes.

And as well, there are often wild cards that are involved.

So in Follow the Queen, that's a game of seven card stud, if I remember correctly.

But

every time a queen comes up on the board, face up on the board, or the playing, you know, the table,

the next card that is dealt after the queen becomes wild.

So if the next card that is dealt face up, is a two and you have a two either showing in your hand or in your in your whole cards, the cards that only you can see, that's a wild card until another queen comes up.

And it's a fun variation of the game of poker.

For example, I don't remember how to play baseball.

I certainly don't know anything about Big Murph.

We won't get into the details of all of them.

We will get into the details of some of them.

But your grandma taught you and your family this game.

Is that right, Joe?

That is correct.

Yeah, my mom grew up.

They had been playing all of their lives.

And then

when we went to visit her, we'd always play poker.

And who's we in this case?

Me, my brother, and my sister.

Okay.

So the three siblings go play poker with grandma in Louisville, Kentucky.

No, this is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

So you're playing poker there.

Got it.

This sounds really wholesome and cute and wonderful.

And what were the stakes?

Thousands of dollars?

College funds.

Werthers originals.

We played for dimes, nickels, and quarters.

All right.

Nickel and dime, fun, fun poker.

So, Julie,

why is Joe's grandma so awful?

I can't speak to her.

I never did meet Joe's grandma, but the

so you're just dancing on her grave then?

Yes, essentially.

Okay, got it.

And her legacy.

However,

they play these games fairly regularly whenever we co-visit.

And I don't think they're real poker.

I think that they just make things up as they go along

in an effort to steal all my change.

So when you visit, you guys are affianced, correct?

You're engaged.

You're not yet married.

Congratulations in advance.

Thank you.

So when you go and visit your future siblings-in-law,

Joe and his sister and brother want to play these games, and your contention is that

they're just gaslighting you.

Essentially, yes.

So, right.

There's night baseball, there's day baseball, and then there's gaslight baseball, where they just make up the rules as they go along.

Nailed it, yes.

Okay.

And have you, have you tried to play any of these games?

Oh, yes.

That's how I know they're not real.

Okay.

John, serious poker players play Mad Skills or Paz Denous

or Fife Dog.

So is your contention then that

these are not games that serious poker players would play

or that these aren't really games at all and that the siblings are making up the rules as they go along and maybe grandma never existed?

Absolutely the latter.

Okay.

You have any proof that your grandma ever lived, by the way, Joe?

You know, I asked my mom if she had pictures of us playing poker with my grandmother and she said she couldn't find any, but she'll go look.

All right.

Which game did they try to get you to play?

And which one do you hate the most, Julie?

Maybe it's the same one.

The one I'm most familiar with is Big Murph.

I can't tell you the rules of it, but that's the one that they've tried to get me to play.

All right.

Now, now we get down to it.

I would love to learn the rules to Big Murph.

Sure.

What's going on?

Tell me about Big Murph.

Yeah, Big Murph is just a seven card stud.

And first of all, I love it.

Jesse, I love it when you call me Big Murph.

Sure.

All right.

Seven card stud.

It's a seven card stud variant.

Correct.

And fives and tens are wild.

That's it?

That's it.

That's a pretty simple variation.

Where does Murph come in?

I would call, you know what I would call that one?

Woolworth because Woolworth was a five and dime store.

Wow.

See what I'm saying?

Pretty good, right?

I like that.

Maybe it's, maybe it's Big Worth.

Maybe it's a corruption.

It could be.

The thing is, this is where maybe Julie has some standing because I don't know where these games came from.

I just know that I played them.

Well, if, I mean, there are rules, right?

It's seven card stud

with fives and tens are always wild.

That's a pretty simple.

Now, it sounds to me, Julie, like maybe just even the word seven card stud

sound mysterious to you.

It does.

I'm not a big card player.

So go ahead, Joe, and explain to the listeners what seven card stud is because I think I remember, but I'm not sure myself.

Sure.

So you're dealt two cards down and then a sequence of cards up.

And you,

first, you ante, obviously, and then you bet on each hand as it comes around.

You get four cards up, and then you get your last card down.

And then you try to make the best hand out of five cards out of those seven.

Right.

So the deal with seven card stud, thank you for reminding me because I couldn't remember if you get two cards down or three cards down and I didn't want to get those letters.

You get two cards dealt down, and then one card dealt up, right?

That's how you start the game.

Everyone ante's up.

They put in a certain, they put in a quarter each, let's say, right?

Let's say you're playing for quarters.

And then after you get those three cards, two down and one up, there's a round of betting

or folding if you don't want to bet, if you want out of the game.

And then there's another round of cards dealt up, another round of betting, another round of cards dealt up, and so on

until you have four up cards.

And then the final round of betting happens if you're still in the game at that point

after you get your final down card.

So you have three cards that only you can see and four cards up that everyone can see.

They can't share them, but they know what you have.

So they have a guess as to where you might be going with your hand.

And you make your best five card hand out of those seven cards.

And

then

fives are tens or wild.

That's the big murph part.

Did that help you understand it, Julie?

Should we play some cards right now?

I would sound fun.

Oh, you'd play with me, but not your beloved, soon-to-be-husband, all-human being in his own right.

I don't feel like you're trying to steal my coins.

Is the case that you just were losing a lot, that you were getting destroyed by Joe and his sibs?

Not entirely.

That may be part of it, an underlying part of it.

However, the hand, the game that we play each hand changes, and it's hard to keep up, especially when it's not just one card is wild versus another card is wild.

What do you mean, each hand changes?

You mean as the as the cards come up, it's hard to keep track of what you have and what everyone else is having?

No, so once you play around, they'll change whatever we're playing.

So we'll change the game.

If we don't anymore, we'll play a different game.

Whoever's dealing gets to choose the game.

Oh, dealer's choice, they call it.

Dealer's choice.

I just spat right now.

It's not the most famous spit on the internet these days, but that was a spit of contempt, I should say.

I don't like dealer's choice.

I feel you there, Julie.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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joe when is this happening what what's what are the the occasions in which uh this is happening obviously grandma's funeral correct yeah on her grave every year no

holiday holidays family reunions what are we talking about yeah when growing up it was whenever my mom would take us over to my grandmother so that'd be like once a month um but now your grandmom is dead joe i know trying to bring us up to date here when is how many times has julie come over to play Grandma and Big L, rest in peace.

That's right.

Pour one out.

We head up to Pittsburgh probably

can get up to two or three times a year, but we don't play every time, probably once a year at this point.

When you go and visit your family, they're still in Pittsburgh.

Is that where you're from, Joe?

Correct, yes.

All right.

Julie, where are you from?

Kentucky.

You're from Kentucky.

Okay.

And you hate Pittsburgh?

I don't hate Pittsburgh.

I love Pittsburgh.

Oh, okay.

I was just trying.

I was just seeing what your reaction would be.

No, I'm not willing to make that

assertion.

Pittsburgh's great, John.

That's where we got to visit the Oscar Meyer Wiener Mobile.

That's true.

Did you come see our show in Pittsburgh or Lexington, Kentucky?

We didn't come to Louisville, I'm afraid.

No, I was trying to get to Lexington, but it was a Monday night and I had to work.

So I couldn't get away from that.

Always start tour on a Monday night.

That's my...

That's my creed.

Julie, what are his siblings like?

Sister and brother, is that right?

Yes, they're great.

I love his family.

They're all very loud and outgoing,

a lot of fun to be around.

You don't feel like they are purposefully teasing or bullying you by picking the most complicated games and delighting in your confusion, or do you?

They may be doing that, honestly.

Here we go.

Probably not

in a mean way, but I think they would think it was pretty funny

if I kept losing it.

They're made-up poker games.

Joe, how do you respond?

It's a heavy accusation.

It is a heavy accusation, not unfounded.

But my family also loves Julie immensely, so I don't think they would do anything like that to her.

But yeah, you know, poker is an aggro game.

I mean, Richard Kine gets loud.

I mean, he gets loud always.

Do you know what I mean?

But like,

it's a game where you are lying and bluffing and

delighting in other people's misfortune.

And there is a lot to poker that is, you know, what they say.

You know, a person who's new at poker

is called a rabbit in poker parlance.

And they say that if you don't know who the rabbit at the table is, it's you, Julie.

You see what I mean?

People really love taking advantage in poker of

new players because, paradoxically, new players in poker tend to do very well.

If you have not had a lot of bad beats, if you've not lost a lot of hands that you got close at,

you tend to be overconfident.

And overconfidence in poker at the beginning means that you bet more aggressively.

And when you bet more aggressively, you tend to do better.

When you've had some bad beats and you know a little bit more of the game, you tend to lay back more and people can push you around more.

Isn't that interesting?

That's what I've observed anyway.

I'm no power player.

I just have played some poker.

That's all.

I'd say that's pretty accurate, honestly.

They push you around to the poker table?

No, I'm too

excited to throw in a penny or two.

Oh, okay.

Let me ask you this question in terms of their level of poker play.

Like,

Joe, what's poker been like in your life?

You play a lot outside of these family reunions or?

No.

The video game.

recently came out, Bellatro, has been most of my poker playing lately, but that's about it.

I don't know this video game.

It's

roguelike, as they call it, but you have jokers that change this like power of each card, or like if you get a straight, it'll double the points or something like that.

And you're trying to beat an ante every round.

It's pretty cool.

Now I feel like Julie, I feel you're just making a yeah.

At what point do we stop playing poker and start playing

Tegwar,

the excellent game without any rules from bang the drum slowly.

Also known as Calvin Ball.

Yeah.

You never, Joe, you never went through a period in the early 2000s when you watched celebrity poker showdown and you and you and Michael Ian Black would play poker against Phil Gordon or whatever, that whole poker era that sort of slotted in directly after the swing dance era for white guys who desperately wanted to feel cool about something.

No, he got hit by that one, though.

You got the swing dance one?

By the way, I'm not accusing Michael Ian Black of wanting to be cool about something.

Michael Ian Black is very cool, and he's an incredibly talented poker player.

I've lost to him many times.

But that was a whole, there was a whole moment in history in the early 2000s.

You never, did you go through that period of time?

No, I know that was also like the Texas Holdham-like big shift.

That was it.

Yeah.

I never got into that.

No.

Texas Holdham came along and destroyed

every other game of poker

because, I mean, it had been around for a while, but as soon as the World Series of poker became less niche and obscure and the big event at the World Series of Poker is No Limit Texas Hold'em, well, I'll just quote Richard Kine from an interstitial bit at that episode of Celebrity Poker Showdown from 2004.

If you must know, I despise this game.

We used to play Seven Stud and Omaha and Hi Low.

Now all we play is Texas Hold'em.

It has destroyed the game.

Judge Hodgman, when you're talking to Richard Kine in real life, which both of us have done, do you ever feel like he's doing Richard Kind?

I think Richard Kind will tell you to your face that he is doing the best Richard Kind imitation he knows.

Bless him.

Joe, Julie's not having any fun playing with your family.

Why should I compel her to participate in these games?

Well, I like it, it's a deep thing from our like our family, like a deep connection.

Um, and we don't play often, but when we do, I want her to have fun too, you know, I want her to enjoy

the experiences that we enjoy as well.

Also, you want those sweet, sweet quarters.

Also that.

Well, how many people are playing at the table anyway?

Like, it's just the three of you, you and your two siblings?

Obviously, you want Julie and you want to have some action at the table.

And my siblings are both married and my mother will play with us.

And my siblings both have

seven children between the two of them.

So we also try to get some off of them too, some change off them.

And everyone plays except for you, Julie?

I still play, just not well.

Oh, I see.

What would you rather do then?

Play a different game.

Joe has so many board games.

Why can't we play one that's not, that's actually a real game?

Whoa, whoa, which board game do you want to play?

Carcasson?

Mealborn?

Connections.

From the New York Times magazine?

No,

it's...

A game where

you have a board and you pick a word and you have, it's where you, I don't know if I can.

You're making this up.

You're making this up as you go along no it has written instructions

would you feel better if the rules were written down for you of these other games I'm not sure I'd rate them to be honest I just want them explained to me before we play let me ask you let's just say there was only one game big murph obviously dealer's choice means that the game changes every time and that can be distracting in itself but if there was only one game Is there something about poker that makes you feel uncomfortable?

I don't think so, other than I don't like to lose.

Do you like to gamble?

I'm not a huge gambler, but I don't mind it.

I know I would feel uncomfortable gambling with people I loved.

Like I,

as has been covered on the show, I have a hard time with competitive games with people I know anyway, because I

feel bad if I lose and feel bad if I win.

But the gambling element in particular, I think I would be particularly resentful of people taking money from me.

And I would feel particularly embarrassed about taking money from people that I liked.

I'm fine with taking their money.

You're just not succeeding at it.

Right.

Right.

I see.

I'm going to ask this question.

Kind of covered some of this ground, but we're going to try to cover it again.

Julie, what are your favorite board games to play?

I like connections.

I like, we've played Wavelength recently.

That's fun.

Hughes and Q's.

All right.

I have heard of Hughes and Q's.

I was about to accuse you of doing what you accuse your siblings of doing.

It's like,

I like windowsill.

I like half empty can of Diet Coke.

I like papoose.

I like Tajay, Del the Funky Homo Sabian.

You're still doing 90s rappers.

I'm just talking about things that are, that I can see right now.

But I have heard of, and I've heard of and played Hughes and Q's.

That's an interesting game.

Huh's and Q's.

But the, but what about, so to me, that's a long-paced game, but you, the pace of poker is annoying to you.

It's that, and I don't feel like there's as much interaction between the players necessarily, whereas like we're joking around and bouncing

digs essentially off of each other in something like Q's and Qs.

Poker is just speed rounds and then them making up new words to describe another game that doesn't exist.

How would you describe your state of mind?

How would you describe your feelings while you are playing poker compared to playing a game of Q's and Qs?

Almost bored.

I did not see that coming.

I mean, I haven't played poker for a long time and I find it to be anxiety inducing.

You don't feel that or do you?

Maybe a little bit, but I'm mostly trying to come up with whatever or predict whatever the card is going to be and see am I making the right choice.

And there's not a lot of time for like trash talking back and forth and the interaction, I guess, with the other players.

You're telling me there's more trash talk in Q's and Q's?

Oh, yes.

Than in poker.

Yes.

We're too concerned about the money.

Poker isn't rough enough for you.

Not with his family.

Joe, what's going on?

Are you playing speed silent poker?

Trash talk is an important part of the poker game.

Yeah, it's a big, big one.

The matriarch of the family, she was always like, in and out, let's go play.

Not too much trash talk until the till the end of the round, and then

you could celebrate or cry.

You lost.

I didn't realize, Joe, that you were playing boring poker.

I mean,

I feel like you are denying Julie a very important part of the game.

Well, it's not boring to me.

I go through the same emotions.

I have anxiety.

I'm excited whenever I have a good hand going, and then automatically, like all right off as soon as another card comes out, and I am not having a good hand going.

You know, I have those ups and downs every hand, but I guess I've not pushed that over to Julie's emotions.

Well, you're not, you're not trying to guess what other people have.

You're not saying to Julie, well, I guess you didn't get that pair you wanted, and try to read her mind and

mess her up.

You know, I feel like anytime we were doing that was as the dealer could say some Smack Talk as you were laying the cards down.

But between players, it really was like

just sit and get your hand and go.

Do you feel like an outsider, Julie?

Maybe a little bit.

His, all of his siblings and their significant others have been around a lot longer, I think, than I have.

And so I think they had the OG game and I'm getting what they have passed down.

You're getting their sloppy seconds.

I don't want to say that.

I don't know.

That's a gross thing to say.

Have you ever, Joe, have you ever tried playing Hues and Q's or another kind of game that Julie suggests?

Yes.

Yeah, there's definitely board games that happen.

Just for the record, I want to make sure that ours, I forget this.

The answer was no, yes.

Was it no, yes, or not, yes?

I didn't quite get that.

Not yes.

Not yes, but yes.

We do play a lot of board board games, but there's a time for board games and there's time for poker.

When is the time for board games and when is the time for poker?

Board games actually happen probably more often than poker.

You need to have like a set we're going to play poker this time around.

Bring your pennies ready to play.

But it's not, but that'd be like

if there's one evening where you're all hanging around for whatever reason, there's either either board games or poker.

It's not like we'll play a game, a board game, and then the second event of the night will be a few rounds of poker.

poker.

Most people don't have their change readily available to lose.

So it's kind of like a we need to plan it out if we're going to have a board game night that or a part a poker night that night.

Everybody's got to go to the laundromat first.

Would it make a difference, Julie, if you were playing with just chips?

Like fake currency?

Poker chips, they call them?

I don't feel like it would.

I think I'd still be bored.

Is poker without gambling a boring game?

That's a question for all present.

To me, it is.

Probably.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I'll answer when I present my verdict.

I don't gamble often.

I think I feel like I just keep my gambling to my poker with my family.

But yeah, it feels even just chips for me.

I never feel like that's enough

at stake.

in a card game.

Central to the enjoyment is taking money from old ladies and children.

Yes.

Or losing it to old ladies and children.

Do the children ever win big?

And what is that like?

They'll win a pot every once in a while, but we make sure that they stay around long enough to get a couple more hands in.

Do you, Joe, from childhood or the last time you hung out with your siblings, do you have a memory of a particularly amazing hand that you won or a bad beat when you thought you were going to win, but then you lost?

Not a specific moment, but my dad came up with what follows the queen at night, and he instituted that game where all cards are down, and so all seven of your cards are coming up one at a time.

So you really never know what's coming to follow the queen.

And it could be the last card of the game is going to be the wild card.

So you have to stay in the whole time.

And I've won one of those, and those feel pretty good because everyone's betting on each hand as it comes around.

How can you know what the wild card is if all the cards are dealt down?

That is face down.

It's just, yeah,

that was the joy of that game.

My father made it up, and

my grandmother particularly didn't like that one, but he won.

Yeah, I got a side with grandma on that one.

That's how all of these feel.

Well,

tell me the rules of the other ones.

Baseball.

Baseball are threes and nines are wild, but you have to pay for threes.

You have to pay a nickel for a three.

And then

if you get a three, it's wild as long as you put in a nickel.

Yes.

If you don't put in the nickel, then you don't get, you give up the three?

No, you just have to pay the nickel.

I don't know if there was ever a time that you didn't pay a nickel when you didn't.

So it's a mandatory, a mandatory three fee.

And then fours, you got an extra card.

And what's night ball?

Is that where all your cards are face down?

Every card is dealt down and you reveal reveal at the same time as you play.

Got it.

And if you get a three face down, you have to pay and that reveals that you got one.

Correct.

I love it.

Follow the queen, we talked about Big L.

Big L is there are five cards set up in a grid.

So three down and then a cross.

And we called this fiery cross.

It's too complicated.

It's pretty complicated, yeah.

Under 10?

There are 10 cards face down, and everyone has a hand of seven cards.

And every card that's revealed, if it matches your hand, card in your hand, you throw it in.

And whoever has the least amount of points at the end after 10 cards wins.

What was, oh, jacks are better.

You can only play if you have a pair of jacks are better, right?

That's what jacks are better.

And that's to open the pot.

I don't know.

That one always was

my grandfather.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't even remember the rules to that one.

What I'm doing is I'm deciding which games you're allowed to play and which ones you're not allowed to play.

Elevator.

Similar to Big L, and there was just a card in the middle.

Get it then?

I don't care.

Low ball.

That is

the lowest hand wins.

The worst hand wins.

Instead of the highest hand, which is traditional poker.

Correct.

And that would be in a seven-card stud variation or a five-card draw or what?

Seven-card stud.

I think we mostly just played seven-card stud.

Do you have difficulty duly remembering the hands of poker?

That is which hands beat what?

I mean,

obviously, you're searching for it right now, so it's not something that's native to you.

Do you get to play with a guide, or do these horrible siblings make you work from memory?

Oh, no, it's from memory, and they're all talking over each other.

If you have a question, I thought this was a boring, silent game, and now you're telling me that they're talking over each other?

I really should have made you guys video a game of this so I could watch do my best Dave Foley color commentary on your whole game.

It's silent for the most part, but if you do have a question, everyone's going to try to explain it at once

over each other.

I got it.

Joe,

have you ever thought about stepping in and asking Julie to play a few games at home by yourself, the two of you?

Just a little heads-up training sequence?

Just a little heads-up home training montage?

I haven't done that.

Well, why haven't you?

It just doesn't.

That's a wonderful question, first of all.

It just never, uh, never came up.

I mean, you want her to feel at home in this family, and she's telling you in no uncertain terms that these games are dumb and they're boring and they're not as good as the other games, and uh, she doesn't feel left out, but nor does she feel exactly included.

Why don't you work a little bit harder to include her?

Uh, that is something I could probably do, actually.

How long have you guys been together?

Six years,

six years, and uh, when you hit three, did you pay a nickel?

It felt like it, yeah.

Because three was 2020, so that's when we when we moved in together, yeah.

Actually, when you hit three,

you paid a ring, so that's true.

Wait, hold on.

You've been engaged for three years?

I'm in school, so we wait, so we have to wait till one of both of us are employed again.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll tell you what, that's that's not a, that's not a three you buy with a nickel.

You know what I mean?

Wedding you buy, multiple nickels.

Yeah, and they're taking all my nickels.

Yeah, but here's the thing, Julie.

What if you become a card sharp?

Yeah.

And you could win all this money off of them.

You could quit the business like Gina Gershon.

Yeah.

Remember when multiple entertainers quit show business to become professional poker players?

Yeah.

Jennifer Tilley, Gina Gershon, Norm McDonald.

They were taking all of our entertainers.

But I'll tell you what, I'm not even going to save this for the verdict.

You asked, Jesse,

if

poker without gambling is boring, and the answer is no, because poker is not gambling.

Gambling is roulette

or

slots

or,

you know, to a degree, blackjack or betting on horses where you are making certain educated guesses, but there is lots, lots more left to chance

in gambling than there is in the game of poker.

Poker is a game that involves placing a bet on the strength of your hand compared to what the other hands are, but you have so much more information when you're playing poker than when you're placing a bet on a horse.

I do not consider it to be gambling exactly.

It is a pastime.

It is a game.

It is

a battle of wits as much as it is a battle of chance.

Like rotisserie baseball.

That's exactly right.

Joe, it says here, your ideal ruling is that

Julie has to accept that these are great card games and she must play them.

Is that correct?

That's your ideal ruling?

Probably not must, but

have fun and enjoy them.

I guess you can't roll that.

She has to have fun.

Oh, no, that's possible.

I have that power.

Sure.

I have that power.

Julie, if I were to rule in your favor, it says here that you would like me to order that Joe admit they are not real games and that the family is making up the rules.

Do you sincerely believe that these games, that the rules of these games are being changed during play?

That they are not...

I mean, all games have made up rules, of course.

But do you sincerely believe that the family is

playing mind games rather than card games with you?

I think some of them they're making up as we go.

Some of them they're making up as we go.

Do you have any evidence to suggest this?

Because that's pretty nefarious.

It feels like every couple of hands, they'll start arguing about what the actual rules of the game are.

And if they can't even remember the rules of the game, then do they even exist?

Joe, how do you respond to that?

True or false?

False.

Why?

We've been pretty solid on our rules over the years.

Did anyone ever write them down?

No.

Julie, is there a particular game you can remember Joe's family arguing about?

No, because they all blend together once you

change the rules every hand.

Is there a particular game that you remember being particularly confusing?

I'll read them to you again.

Big Murph, Night Baseball, Day Baseball, Follow the Queen, Big L, Under 10, Jacks are Better, Elevator, Lowball.

Any one of those give you the biggest shudder?

Probably Nightball.

Nightball.

All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision, but let's make this interesting.

One of you is going to win and one of you is going to lose.

Joe, do you have an upcoming family event where poker might or might not be played?

Yeah, we're this

beginning of January.

We're going to get together for a New Year's, Christmas, Thanksgiving.

Okay, there we go.

Yeah, it's holiday time.

Perfect.

So

if you're to win, Julie, then you will not play poker at this event.

And in fact, no poker will be played.

How do you like that?

I love it.

At least least one night.

One poker-free night.

And Joe, if you win, only poker will be played the entire time.

No other activities.

No eating, no drinking, no sleeping.

I take it back.

There will be eating.

I will send Richard Kind over to make sandwiches for you while you play.

And it will be all night long.

No.

I would never deny your family poker.

It's only a question of whether to compel Julie to play poker.

So, oh, if

you were to win, Julie will play poker.

If you were to win, Julie, you will not play poker.

What do you want to bet that I'm going to rule in your respective favors?

How strong do you feel you've made your case, Joe?

What do you have in your pocket?

Got any change?

No, literally, nothing.

That's the issue, but I would bet a whole quarter.

Whole quarter.

Yeah, if he had anything in his pocket, they'd be married by now.

Yeah, or you might be happy to see me.

Uh, Julie, what's your bet?

Probably have maybe $2 in my wallet.

Would you bet that whole two that i'm gonna rule in your favor and you're not gonna play poker next time sure let's go for it

let's bet big all in all in all right do you call two dollars or fold or raise no we're just gonna call all right the pot's right i'm gonna go in my chambers to consider my verdict i'll be back in a moment with my decision please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom Julie, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

I think I think I have a pretty good shot of not having to play poker.

Why is that?

I think I presented a pretty good argument.

And again, I maintain that these are not real poker games.

And I mean, there's a lot writing on this right now, Julie.

I mean, that could buy you a 20-ounce soda.

Exactly.

How am I going to stay caffeinated otherwise?

Joe, how are you feeling?

I came in feeling pretty good

because I know that they're poker games, but I think Julie had a pretty strong case.

So I'm a little probably like a 30-70 at this this point.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this in just a moment.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

Nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge John Hodgman, it is the holiday season.

And if you're filling a stocking.

Jesse, I'm not filling any stockings.

You're not?

I'm stuffing them.

Oh, wow.

I'm stuffing them up.

I'm stuffing them up with

stockings.

New and exciting Judge John Hodgman merchandise in the form of our weird mom tees.

You remember our weird dad teas, that incredible weird dad logo designed by our friend Aaron Draplin of Portland, Oregon.

Well, guess what?

Aaron's back with a weird mom logo, which you can get on tees of all sizes.

By tees, I mean t-shirts.

And I'm talking about regular fit t-shirts and lady fit t-shirts for all the weird moms in your life.

Whether they are your actual mom or just someone who fills a mom-like role in your life, they'll love that weird mom t-shirt.

What else we got in that maxfundstore.com, Jesse?

Our Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage t-shirts are back.

They're back.

They were a limited run item.

They were sunsetted from the store.

We retired them to the Disney vault.

Now they're back for a limited time only.

You can find those at maxfundstore.com as well.

Some of our most most popular t-shirts are the Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage shirts.

Indeed, when we were on the first couple legs of our Road Court tour, I saw a lot of them in the audience.

And you know what?

A lot of them looked pretty old and threadbare.

So we were like, hey, we're going back to Canada.

We're going to Vancouver in early 2025.

Why not bring Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage out of the vault, put it back on some brand new teas in all the sizes that you want, as well as beverage koozies for both regular size cans and slim cans.

And you know what?

If you're on the west coast of Canada or the United States, why not give somebody the holiday gift of tickets to see the Judge John Hodgman podcast live in Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, or, well, you're out of luck if you're in LA because that show is sold out.

And I dare say tickets are going fast in all the other locations.

So better get over there to maximumfund.org events to get your tickets for Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, home of Aaron Drapplin himself, and the great San Francisco Sketch Fest to put those, to stuff those tickets into your stocking or someone's that you love.

And if you're looking for a special antique or handmade gift this year, go to maxfundstore.com where we have all new ball caps, all new handmade scarves, and of course, the incredible selection of vintage and antique clothing, home items, and gift items

that you have come to expect from our shop.

Lots of jewelry for gentlemen and ladies as well.

Put this on shop.

I'm typing it into my clicky keyboard right now.

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Look at all these incredible, vivid handmade girls pink daisy dress, lightweight vintage cotton military field coat.

and

gorgeous post-World War II black wool peak coat.

That's some of the things that come up.

But Jesse Thorne, Thorne, what if I'm looking for a 10-karat gold wishbone stick pin?

Well, great news.

If you want to adorn your lapel with one of those, you can go to putthisonshop.com.

And if you use the code Justice, that will ship for free.

In fact, all of the everything except the really big, heavy stuff that costs us a ton of money to ship, will ship for free with the code Justice.

So go to putthisonshop.com or just follow put.this.on on Instagram.

Let's get back to the case.

Okay.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Well, the pot is $4.

One of you is going to take it home.

You both,

you bet 25 cents.

Julie raised it by 375 and you called it.

And I think you both played your hands very well, honestly.

That doesn't, as in poker, one of you will lose.

You can play your hand well and still lose.

You do all the right things and still lose.

That's because poker is a terrific game.

Now,

in one area, Julia is absolutely correct.

Poker is a great game.

Some of these games are not good, nor are they, in my opinion, poker.

Something like Big Murph or Follow the Queen or Low Ball,

where you are using established poker forms, whether that's five card draw, seven card stud, or a Texas Hold'em configuration, where you have two cards down and five cards up in the middle that are shared, standard poker configurations, dealings, and so forth, but you have a couple of wild cards or a couple of like whoopsie change-up-be rules, that kind of thing.

Those can be fun, but they're only fun when the rules are known and they're applied consistently.

Some of these other ones,

like

what you call it, under 10 or Big L or Fiery Cross or whatever.

I mean, these were the bane of my existence in my weekly poker game

because they feel like different games to me.

You're still putting together a five-card hand, but now you're building weird stacks of cards in the middle, and sometimes you have to put a card on your head, or it's like, it's just the novelty games started to really wear me down.

And all I ever wanted to do was the anti-Richard kind was to insist that we play

Texas Hold Them, for example.

And if not that, then one game over and over and over again, because it is the consistency of the game that makes it interesting to me.

It is part of the consistency of the rules hand over hand over, hand over hand

that allows you to start

getting an intuitive sense for the odds of the hands that you're playing,

for the cards that you have and how they stack up against other people.

Unless you're going to memorize a bunch of math tables and probability tables, which I don't consider to be fun.

Playing hand over hand over, hand over hand is how you start to build a sense of what's a good hand, what's a bad hand, what is the likelihood that your hand will beat another, and changing the rules between every deal

is, to me, chaotic to the point of unfun.

And in that regard, I have great sympathy for Julie,

because I feel that

I could see why you would feel not only confused, but ultimately bored, because

It's interesting, you know, the stakes of poker are these

little coins or chips, meaning that represent five, tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars or whatever.

I mean, they're big financial stakes, possibly, but there are also these emotional stakes

as you're being tricked or misled or you're misleading someone else or you're embarrassed or you're humiliated or you're triumphant and something happens that turns everything.

It's just it's it's a highly emotional game.

But if if if you're playing Calvin Ball and the rules are changing every time, the stakes are never consistent, if you see what I mean, particularly those emotional stakes.

So in that sense, Julie, I agree with you that what they're playing is a kind of family Teguar

that is not only difficult for an outsider to get accustomed to, right?

Meaning you,

but also is not good poker, period.

Sorry, grandma.

Julie, I'll meet you on Grandma's Grave.

But that's it.

As I have already said during the show, I believe poker, particularly Texas Hold'em, but some of the others as well,

as a straight-up game, even if there is no money involved, it's one of the most intriguing and fun games that I've ever played.

I mean, it's up there with Scrabble or with chess, with any other kind of game.

It is intrinsically an interesting and well-constructed game.

And I have, I am married to a person who's a whole human being in her own right, and we love to play certain games together, Scrabble in particular.

and i would love for her to play uh texas hold'em

um with me and other people uh i think she would really enjoy it but unfortunately i cannot compel her to play poker and have fun

because this is my marriage

that's why i'm very happy to compel julie to play poker and have fun

or at least give it a try under certain circumstances in which she has as much of a chance of having fun as anyone else does.

Because that's where

the odds are in the house's favor against Julie in this case, because you've got siblings speaking their weird sibling language, playing all these different card games with all these rules that are up, down, downtown, all around town.

And it's very confusing.

And it's not really poker.

And you're not giving her a chance to settle in and have fun.

Because the pleasure of poker is that while everyone brings their own skills to the table and their own expertise and their own experience, you're still being dealt cards at random.

That is the element of chance that levels the playing field, so to speak.

And right now,

the house has too much of an advantage against Julie because all these siblings are using their secret sibling language and these old weird rules that are confusing.

And

she's not coming to it as an equal.

Poker as a game is a leveler and that's what's going to happen when you convene

for the holidays with your siblings.

And Julie, you have a built-in incentive to play, right?

Because I am ruling in Joe's favor.

So

you're losing $2 to him.

He's doubled up.

And that means that's got $2 that you can win back from him.

Now, here's what's going to happen.

You're going to pick pick one game for the night.

Of all of these, the only one I haven't crossed out is Big Murph.

Because that seven card stud, first of all, which is, it takes a minute to learn, but it does not take a lifetime to master.

Like you'll get it pretty quickly, the rule of the order of the game.

Seven card stud is a real poker game.

You will learn the...

the ranking of the hands.

And with fives and tens wild,

you'll have an opportunity to to put together a lot of hands.

So it's sort of more fun than even regular seven-card stud, which can be a bit of a grind until you get the sense of it.

Do you know what I mean?

So you're going to play Big Murph, and you're going to play multiple hands of it,

not only on the night, but before you even get there, Julie.

You're both going to get

a game going in your community, perhaps, or without that, you'll play some video, you know, get a get a video game of poker or whatever, and run some hands through.

Just get a sense of it.

Get a sense of how it's played.

And then you're going to get some poker chips.

These nickels and dimes, that's, come on, that's nickel and dime stuff.

Get some poker chips.

You know what, Joe?

You're going to buy some poker chips for Julie for the holidays.

And you will put some monetary value to those chips.

Now, you're already $2 up, Joe,

but everyone's got to put in, I don't know,

four bucks,

whatever the kids can handle.

You know what I mean?

And you're going to play a tournament until someone wins all of it.

Or at least play

five or 10 hands

of the same game.

I'm recommending Big Murph.

It could be regular seven card stud.

It could be Texas Hold'em even.

But you play five to ten hands of the same game after you've had a little bit of practice.

And then, Julie, you will have actually played poker.

And then you could decide, oh, maybe this sucks and I don't want to ever play, in which case, you go away.

But I have a feeling

that if you were to play five or ten hands of real poker, then you

and my wife would like the game.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Let's play some cards.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How do you feel, Julie?

You know, I thought it would go the other way, but I guess I need to learn how to play poker now.

Julie, I'll tell you this.

The closest I ever got to wanting to play poker was reading a wonderful book about poker called Positively Fifth Street by Jim McManus years and years ago for my public radio show.

He came on and also was an exceedingly interesting, bright, and lovely guest.

He is both a guy who made it to the final table at the World Series of Poker and a frequently published poet.

A wonderful, wonderful dude.

Really great book that has a lot of juicy stuff about murders in addition to the juicy stuff about poker.

So I don't know if that almost got me playing poker.

You already like playing games.

I bet it would work for you.

Yeah, I'll have to check that one out.

It sounds good.

Joe, how are you feeling?

Great.

I'm excited.

I should put more time into getting Julie acquainted to the roles and get her caught up, but I will do that going forward.

Do you think between now and January, you can learn 75 new versions of poker at least to baffle everyone present?

Joe, Julie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor Junk Mutluck for naming this week's episode, I'll see you and raise your right hand.

If you want to name a future episode, join us on Reddit at maximum fun.

Oh, you know what I found out, John?

No what?

MaximumFun.reddit.com no longer works.

They changed the URLs at Reddit.

Now you have to go to Reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun.

Look, maximum fun is always maximum fun.

That change is less than minimal fun.

Reddit.com slash R R slash maximum fun.

Or just search maximum fun in the Reddit in the Reddit application or on

Reddit.

You'll find it.

It'll be fun.

Did they even take a moment to consider what this would mean for podcast hosts who very automatically say the stuff that they say at the end of every episode?

They did not.

They did not take it into consideration.

Change it slightly.

That's where we ask for episode names at Reddit.com slash r/slash maximum fun.

You can also join in the conversation about this episode there.

It is a lot of fun.

Yeah, we don't just talk about the episode names there.

It's where people post all kinds of things relating to this and other Maximum Fun podcasts, including, let's see, user Jesse Thorne just posted, what are your little weirdsies?

And a little discussion about Linda Holmes' famous Little Weirdsies, which is going strong.

This is a new book on the way.

I bet we'll have a new Little Weirdsies episode when that book comes out.

Yeah, go to your neighborhood bookstore and pre-order or order her new novel.

Linda Holmes is the author and friend of the show and terrific lady.

Yeah.

You know, if you want to see My Enormous Gavel

or My Now

very

by comparison small gavel,

or just watch any episode of Judge John Hodgman, go to our YouTube page by searching for Judge John Hodgman on YouTube.

You can find video of our episodes there.

And while you're there, recommend it to a friend that loves to, you know, YouTube is the number one platform for podcasts.

I have heard it and I believe it.

And it means that if you go to YouTube at JudgeJohnHodgman pod and press like and subscribe and share and make a comment, That means you're helping

spread the word of the podcast to other people.

Yeah, tell your friend that only watches watches YouTube videos and doesn't even watch television or listen to podcasts or whatever.

They just watch Good Mythical Morning or whatever, or it's like some show where like a guy does 18th century woodworking.

That seems like that's what all the YouTube shows are, right?

It's just some guy doing it or cutting shoes in half.

It's always somebody doing something.

Sometimes it's two guys wearing blindfolds eating chicken sandwiches.

Oh, that's us.

Yeah, that's us.

You should watch our Battle of the Brands on YouTube, too.

If you want to know whether we prefer Oreos or Hydrox.

Frank's hot sauce or chalula or Popeye's chicken sandwich or KFC, that's where you go.

Yeah, a lot of fun.

A lot of fun.

You can also find us on TikTok and, of course, on Instagram.

Just search for Judge John Hodgman.

I recommend that you follow us in both of those places for video content.

And hey, if you like our show, why not review it?

Yeah, some of you don't watch YouTube at all.

Some of the old school folks are still listening on Apple Podcasts, including a listener, Monster IOOI,

who left some very kind words for us over there at Apple Podcasts, including a five-star rating saying, thoughtful and entertaining.

I just discovered this show recently and I really like it.

Judge John seems to take things thoughtfully and carefully makes a judgment call, even when it's hard sometimes.

I appreciate the fun, but also.

genuine advice from the show.

Thank you, Monster IOOI,

as well as to whoever rated and reviewed the show on Apple Podcasts such that Monster IOOI discovered it.

If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review and five stars if you feel we've deserved it.

You can do the same over at Pocketcasts.

You can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube, or just text a friend your favorite episode.

All of these shares really help.

Thank you.

Judge Sean Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This This episode engineered by Cameron Becht at Louisville Podcast in Louisville, Kentucky.

Our social media manager is Natty Lopez.

The podcast is edited by A.J.

McKeon.

Our video producer is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Edie says, I call cats kitty regardless of their age.

My husband, Alex, thinks the word kitty should only describe baby cats.

Well, I hope that he only ever refers to you lovingly as my adult wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, because calling people baby or honey or sweetie or kitty or whatever it is, calling adult cats kitty is absolutely fine.

And refusing to do so is no fun at all.

By the way, kitty is also a poker term.

It means a percentage of the pot that is taken out at each hand to create a collective pool that maybe you use to pay for refreshments that night for your friends, or maybe you're raising money for someone who needs some money.

It's called the kitty.

That's another version of kitty.

You know what this reminds me of?

No.

That one Stella short where who is it that says, is it Michael Showalter that says, can I hold the purpee?

It's Show Walter, right?

Can I hold the burpee?

The burpee is a dog named Pinot Shea.

Look, when you're out there calling people sweetie or baby or honey pie or whatever, please make sure it's someone that you are in a relationship with.

You're not being inappropriate, say at an office holiday party.

The swingers slash madmen slash early 2000s poker era is over.

Please call people by their names.

But speaking of office party fouls, we're still looking for party fouls for our show.

Disputes revolving

holiday parties, office parties, birthday parties, any party that you might be going to, New Year's Eve party.

There are fouls popping up everywhere.

How early is too early to arrive at a party?

I have a thought.

How late is too late?

What exactly is fashionably late, and how is it different where you grew up?

What do you do when you've been raised appropriately to never show up to a party empty-handed, but the hosts insist don't bring anything, just yourself?

Send me your party fouls and disputes at maximumfund.org/slash JJHO.

And of course, no matter what your dispute is, our show thrives upon it.

So go to maximumfund.org slash jjho and submit your disputes big and small.

And you know what, John?

If you don't have a dispute, start one.

That's what I'm saying.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Pick on somebody in your family or something.

Do something outrageous and then say we should submit this.

Just think about it.

You know that someone is in your life is wrong.

Let us know at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

That's maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We are the one sewing division in America.

That's right, it's all on us.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.